Tea at Four - The devastating cost of being a queer parent

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Our countries birthrate is decline but what if you're queer and want a baby? From sperm donor catalogues to medical discrimination in marginalised communities, in Part 3 of our Future of Fertility series, we talk to LGBT mummies co-founder Laura Rose about how the declining birth rates has a domino effect on everyone - whether they're childfree or not. 🫖 Follow Four Nine on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fournine/🫖 Following Four Nine on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@four.nine/

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Over 60k. 60k. In this final episode of our Future of Fertility series, we're joined by co-founder of LGBT mummies, Laura Rose, who's going to touch on the financial barriers stopping women from having kids, particularly as a queer woman. She talks about the lack of understanding for queer couples going through IVF, how weird it is shopping for sperm, and the hidden costs that you don't think about

when having children. Hey, guys, welcome back to Tier 4. I'm Billy. I'm Christy, and this is the podcast where we talk all things that normally stay in the group chat. And today we are joined by a very special guest as part of our Future of Fertility series. Please give a very warm welcome to the co-founder of LGBT mummies, Laura Rose. How are you?

Thank you for joining us. Thanks. So can you tell our audience a little bit about what LGBT mummies is and where it came about, because from what I was reading reading there was a bit of an ordeal. Am I right in thinking that? There's been a lot of ordeals. Well our, my wife and I have been together 18 years, married 15. I know you get less for murder nowadays.

And when we started our journey, we knew we wanted kids. We knew that that would be quite difficult for us. And you're talking like 14 odd years ago, everyone was still having fun clubbing. And then there was us and we were like, we want to settle down. So when we looked to start our family, we couldn't get access to NHS funding.

So we had to sell funds. So we had to pay for ourselves. And then by the time we had our second child, I was just sat on the sofa breastfeeding and I was just so fed up of people consistently contacting us, just so helpless, so isolated, saying how do you help the kids, how much did it cost, where do you go that's safe, all that kind of stuff. But I just said I'm going to do it and she was like, oh here we go, what are we doing now? And I just said, I'm gonna set up a safe space for people like us so that we can come together

as a community and celebrate our families, but also provide guidance on what the pathways look like and where's safe, et cetera. So it started off as socials and like six months in, blew up. We were in parliament, we were doing campaigns with Stonewall, we were holding events for queer mums and people. And it just has gone from there and developed into like a global community and campaigning and education. And that's where

it started. But obviously my first interaction when we had our eldest was in the hospital and you know, the doctor saying, you know, I don't want you, I want the other mum. I want the real mum, which was quite tough. Yeah. And I didn't have anyone to bounce that off of back then because there wasn't any other queer people like us having babies around that time. Has it changed, like that kind of attitude from doctors? Like, you've just had a new baby within a year.

Has the interaction with doctors improved since the first time you had kids? I think over time it had and then I think post-COVID I think any marginalised community will see it's just kind of un-coperm. It's a lot of queer people feel unsafe but also I think people are quite more brazen with their levels of discrimination, how they're quite happy on socials to share it. Absolutely. But also in the health care system, I think people are almost backtracking and thinking, what's happening politically? I can say these things too.

So you're kind of seeing that backtrack of equity and equality for queer people, but other marginalized groups as well. So it still doesn't feel safe. And it's still happening. That's awful. I also hear these horror stories of like, I was talking to a friend recently,

and they were saying that their queer couple friends were not only discriminated because they were queer but also because they were going through the IVF treatment. I think they were Christian and the Christian community kind of had already has strict opinions on queer and sexuality but also on IVF treatment. How has your friends and family been throughout your journey? Our families have been supportive. I think when I came out, that was a completely different story and wasn't a happy coming out story and journey,

but have always tried to support us. Because we were the first queer women in our community that were having babies, there was a lot of mistakes made, a lot of assumptions, a lot of unconscious bias, a lot of things that got said that were harmful, because people didn't know. They didn't know what to say to mums like us or how to support us both. You know, being the non-biological, non-gestational mother is a difficult task in itself. Couple that in with people not knowing that, you know, you are a real mum too, was difficult for everyone because they come on that journey with you, right? They're your support network. So it was mum too, was difficult for everyone, because they come on that journey with you, right, they're your support network.

So it was tough, it was tough for everyone, but I think a lot of people don't understand the dynamics of a queer family as well, and how to support you all, so that can be tough. I think mentally for the both of you guys as well, how do you guys overcome that, especially like something that you guys want to do, and having to over explain it to people, family and friends.

So what was that default process regardless and how did you guys both keep going and pushing to like, this is what we're gonna do. No one's advice or no one's opinion is gonna change it for us. How, what was that like for you both? I think it was tough. We had a good support network around us,

but again, that lack of understanding, that ignorance kind of followed through. But as we had more children, people understood, but people felt comfortable to ask. And we've always said, look, safe to ask, you know, ask the questions. But people felt more empowered to go, oh, okay, I know what language to use. I know how to address you both. I know how to address their own kids. Because I remember you've got people with children that are saying, why has this child got two mums? And why have I not got two mums? And actually I want two mums.

We had some of that at the school games. But it's important that people feel supported to understand how to support you as a queer family because a lot of time they get forgotten about and you need a strong village, right? To support you on it. And often there's not many of us in the village, so. Well, it's amazing that you've created this safe space

for queer families. Talk us through the village, so. Well, it's amazing that you've created this safe space for queer families. Talk us through the actual process as a queer couple. How is it different perhaps from like a straight couple going through the IVF treatments? Paint us the picture. We, with our first two, we couldn't afford IVF, so we went through IOI. And then the last two, sadly,

my fertility just halved over two years. So I went through a secondary infertility and I had to go through IVF and my wife went through IVF for our final child as well. But when you're going through that, you know, if you're a heterosexual couple, you get all the support. It's a little bit more spoken about, less stigma. But when you're a queer couple, there's a real lack of understanding of what that looks like mechanically and psychologically as well.

But also, you know, we just like sperm. We needed a donor. And there's all this awkwardness around talking about sperm out loud and having a conversation about who the sperm donor or our children's other genetic parent is. There's a lot of fear around that language and feeling that they're going to offend, which is great. But opening that conversation up and saying, look, you can ask, you can talk about it. But whilst we're quite happy to in the work we do, a lot of people don't feel comfortable.

It's quite invasive and intrusive. Some people go, I don't want to talk about that. We don't want to share these parts of our life. It's quite intimate. So it's difficult for many people. So like, you know, you said about, there's that kind of taboo about talking about sperm. Is it, how does it work in terms of like finding the right donor? Is it like a catalogue or?

You know what it is, it was really strange. I mean, it's developed more now, but when we started, you know, get the laptop open, it's like, I always used to joke shopping for shoes on ASOS or something, the most expensive pair of shoes you'll ever own, you know, the most precious. It's a very strange, and it is a shopping experience. And that does sound really strange to say, but you know, we made lists and we wanted someone with attributes of both of us. Now I'm of mixed heritage but strangely at the time didn't consider to have any one of my heritage. My wife's just Caucasian and we basically wrote down you know she was really sporty, I used to do theatre, we wanted someone good looking, why not? You know you want that but we

wanted someone who you know real good family values, musical, a bit sporty. You know, if we could find someone, we mix it all together, but also really kind and doing it, you know, altruistically. So doing it because he wanted to help or they wanted to help someone. And finding the right person was quite hard, do you think? And we both have a kind of, you know, in our head view of the type of women that we fancy as well. So we're like, I was like, you know, a J-Lo looking dude. So what we ended up with, we ended up with two donors and we

looked at them. And the reason that we chose the other one is because the other one's genetic history was he had a lot of people die young in his family and they died of a lot of serious cancers. So it made the decision but almost it was the right decision because we both wanted the same person. And he was beautiful, he was kind, he did all the things that we wanted and ticked those boxes. But obviously back then we didn't think of what that looked like for our children as well.

Our children have that information, they know their experience, they know about him. They've seen photos of him, they know their journey, but that's a huge part of it. And a lot of people don't think about that when they choose their donor. They don't think of down the line when your kids are looking at it. Do you like, if this is too personal, do your kids ever want to understand more about him or like be in contact with him? Yeah, I mean our eldest, we've had lots of conversations, it's always on the school run, when you've got like 10 minutes and it comes out now and I'm like, it's always me. My wife dodges those conversations. And we had those conversations again. And she was like, you know, I want to know

more about him. And I'm like, would you want to meet him? And she kind of paused and was like, would you mind if I met him? And I was like, babe, no. This is your journey as well, if more than ours. Would you want to meet him? She went, I wouldn't want to upset you. Which is like the thought that she was worried about our feelings. So don't worry about mine and mummy's feelings. If you wanted to meet him, that would be okay. And then talking about donor siblings and what that looked like.

You know, research shows it's really important to talk about donor conceived people and what that looked like. You know, research shows it's really important to talk about donor conceived people and what that looks like for your children when they are donor conceived. So for us, we've done the work, we've done the research, we've listened to people in the communities, and that's the right thing to do. So when she's asking these questions, I'm like, this is your experience.

Of course we can talk about it safely. And the others will probably do the same, but they have a folder, they have all the information. I said, do you wanna see photos? And she said, yes. Do you want more information? She went, not right now. I said, do you wanna meet him?

And she said, I don't know. And she said, is it okay if that changes? And I said, yeah, of course it is, that's fine. And then she just said the most cutest thing. She's so thoughtful about it. She said, you know, I just thought it upset you because obviously we're not fully genetic, we're not genetically related, but you're still my mom. And I said, of course I am. And she went genetics is important, but it's also not important. And me, I was like, I dropped my phone. I was like, oh my

God, she's so clever and compassionate. And it is important because it's their genetics and their history, but it's not important in regards to our relationship. It doesn't make us or bilize us. Cause I'm still your mum. It's the same with adoptive children. And I said that, you know, when you're adopted, our children love by their parents.

And she said, yeah. And I said exactly, it's the same thing. I love how she's got that from you. Cause if it was you and your wife not wanting to like start up the LGBT mummies and speak about your journeys, I don't think other people would have that confidence too. But I feel like your daughter seeing you and your partner being so outspoken, really like emphasizing,

putting information out there, it's literally opening her up as well to kind of like ask those questions, being very thoughtful. And it's just beautiful to see, just listen to them. Just like, wow, if you didn't do that, you would not be experiencing. Our conversations might be different. But that's the thing is about educating other queer women and people on their experience, that it's OK.

And there's still a lot of stigma around talking about donor conception. There's a lot of people that go, I don't want to tell my kids. And that's a family choice, whether it be right or wrong. That's not our business. But when it comes down to it, that was a right choice for us, because I have friends that are donor conceived. We work in the space and know what that impact looks like when you don't tell someone and when they're in their full is and they then find out a huge impact.

There are some horror stories out there of like, I mean, think recently there was that case where the one that might be in America but like the same sperm donor it was like mass used I think was a whole lot of I remember what it was on I think I'm going off track there but yeah there's been a few horrible ones so I think you are like what you're doing is the right choice you know to give your children that opportunity to understand fully and be aware as well, I guess, because sometimes in those instances, those horror stories of like, people start dating and they've actually half siblings because they're both from the

same donor. Yeah, and that has happened more so in the US, but you know, with the limits and caps globally, more people are having fertility issues, so more people are having to use egg or sperm donors, the donor conception. You know, one in six in this country are going to have fertility issues. So there's going to be more children like mine as the years go on. But, you know, they are going to have to get to the strange, unusual situation when they say, you know, you're going to have to take a swab test to check if we're related, because this is the kind of world we're living in now.

Yeah. Society, we're doing something to our bodies that is impacting our fertility so greatly that we're all having to go down these alternative paths to have our children. And hopefully we can turn it around. But at the moment, it's getting worse. So as part of this campaign, we're obviously looking at the barriers that a lot of women are facing in terms of their fertility. And one of the key ones is obviously financials. How much has it cost you or set you back? Over 60k. 60k. And a lot of people that we've supported have spent in excess of that. Obviously from our perspective, we struggled, we scrimped and scraped, we got into debt. And we knew that that was what we needed to do to have our family. But a lot of people it's not financially viable to do that. So they go down

alternative pathways which is fine and they are positive as well for many people but some are going down alternative pathways where it's really physically and psychologically and legally dangerous. And for us if there was NHS national funding for everyone heterosexual and queer alike, not just female same-sex couples because for us it should be for everyone, heterosexual and queer alike, not just female same-sex couples because for us it should be for everyone. Then it would mean that actually people can start their family in a safe way and legally be protected because a lot of our families are not protected right now.

Really? And that's why with our fertility justice campaign, we've made sure it's not just female same-sex couples, it's queer men, it's trans, it's non-binary people, it's co-parenting, it's queer men, it's trans, it's non-binary people, it's co-parenting, it's poly families. Anyone queer should have that right to start a family. But yeah, it's having an impact. Gosh, yeah. I think it's an incredible campaign.

What is the next steps for the campaign? What are you now focusing on? We're in parliament, meeting with MPs. We've got lots of queer MPs, but also allies that are really interested and passionate about supporting queer people having access. But also heterosexuals, you know, we're working with alongside Fertility Access Campaign, who are for specifically heterosexuals. One voice, cohesively working together to just push it forward for as a vehicle for change. But right now, we want to move it forward to address not only just fertility funding, what does that journey

look like after that? You know, we need data access on our community, we want to move it forward to address not only just fertility funding, what does that journey look like after that? We need data access on our community, we need to see what our outcomes are, that intersectionality of being black and brown and queer or having a disability or being socially deprived. We tick a multitude of boxes, so you're dealing with racism, ableism, discrimination, being queer. So for us, we want to make sure people are supported, but also, you know, what does it look like on the birth certificates?

Can you be on your child's birth certificate? It's a long-term plan to think of queer parenting. How can we make it equal and equitable for everyone? Oh, I love that. And so we touched on like a financial barrier. Are there any other barriers that you've felt as a queer person that were like stopping you or make it really hard for queer women to go through the fertility journeys that

they need to? Yeah I mean the lack of education and training around health care professionals of queer or marginalised communities as a whole is crazy like if it was mandated by the government which we've been pushing for for the last decade it would mean professionals were informed, they had the training and tools to understand our communities better. And right now they don't understand us. So it's medically dangerous and it also puts people in harm's way. So whether you being queer and any of those other intersects of other communities, people

are getting harmed and having really poor outcomes. There's new data out from America saying that queer women are more at risk of maternal poor outcomes, stillbirth, miscarriage, add in if you're black and brown as well or disabled etc. Your outcomes are getting so much worse. So it's really important that everyone is given a platform to be supported but training is a huge issue I think. Yeah I think as a queer person I do have a duty of care to educate myself more on these issues because obviously as a cis man, I think it's quite easy for me to sometimes not care or not think about it,

because it's not an issue that I see in my peripheral vision, but hearing you speak about it, and there is a real need for change, because it's not just affecting, like you say, just queer women, it's black and brown women. I think for me it's like, it's annoying that people see fertility as a thing of luxury. Whereas if you want to be a mother, if you want to have kids, you're entitled to, you know what I mean? Like everybody needs a home. And I think for me it's like, like you said, the lack of training is like,

why are we not wanting to enable those to have a training and those medical professionals there for everyone. Cause at the end of the day, we do want the world to continue. We want to birth the new generation. So why is it something that's such as important as fertility? Why is it, why is the money the main thing of it? Or should it be- Because it's spent everywhere else.

So fertility treatment is often likened to Botox or having beautician level kind of chemical cosmetic treatment yeah so if you like and having infertility to something like that or being socially infertile which people we are if we need egg or sperm you're putting it at a level where it's just not it's a choice rather than a need so a human right I personally think it's a human right if you can medically have a child yourself, you should be given that autonomy to decide. But a lot of people see it as a choice, you know, you're gay by choice. Oh yeah, you know, I woke up one day and just decided to be queer.

That's how a lot of people see it. And they see having children is a choice. And it's just something that you inflict on yourself rather than it's a miraculous amazing thing to birth or have children and why don't we deserve that right too? Absolutely. It's like to robbing the right out of people that you guys shouldn't be dictating oh maybe yeah if you give me the amount of money that you know for it to do it then I will do it for you it shouldn't be like that. It's really angering me now. Yeah. I'm like, I'm getting angry! I think also, it's like when you see other countries, like I think Spain have introduced IVF treatment for queer and heterosexual couples. Like how, is that something you think we can achieve in the UK?

Is that what we're pushing for? NHS like funded, I mean. Well, bearing in mind economically, we've got the lowest birth rate in the country since 1938. Crazy. So we're not replacing our ageing population. So we're not having enough babies and we need more taxpayers to uphold the economy and grow it.

So you've got a whole community of queer people like, hey, we're here, we're queer, we'll have babies. And often they don't always have fertility issues. So they'd get pregnant quite quickly. So the low cost it would cost to give people NHS funding for fertility treatment as opposed to the issues like miscarriage, stillbirth, genetic issues, long-term disabilities that could be supported with genetic testing, all these kind of things. You pay upfront a little bit, the cost won't be huge at the end and you're giving people that opportunity to create more taxpayers,

which you think the government would like, you know? We need someone to pay pensions. Exactly, who's gonna be looking after us when we're in care homes? This is a thing, there won't be anyone. Me and my friend always have this conversation about like, when it comes to the conversation around being child free, having kids, what everyone wants to do.

And the one thing that keeps spinning is that like, well, if no one has kids, we're not gonna be able to have our pension because that's how it pays into. Yeah, it's the same. There's a lot of things that we won't have, but obviously people are not having children like our grandparents did.

We were joking before, weren't we? My mom was one of nine, my dad was one of 13, then nine. And it's like, we don't have that many children. We can't afford it. And it's cyclical. We talk a lot in parliament about, it's not just about funding, it's about maternity leave. No, paternity leave, or it needs a name change, obviously.

And then it's childcare. It's that kind of whole cycle of, you've got to support people in the workplace. So a lot of that work is all around that that we do because you can't just give a little bit and then expect people to find the rest of the money. People can't afford it now, especially post COVID. It's just with inflation, cost of living,

people can't afford it. I also find that like, I mean, if I'm speaking for you here, corporations have monetized off of people having children, whether that's childcare, if it's toys, prams, luxury goods or non-everyday essentials. Everything is so steeped in price that that is also a huge contributing factor to the reason why people think, oh I can barely afford to like, you know, live, eat.

And then the cost of everything you need to have a child, but then also have, you know, have a baby, have a child, have a teenager. It's just like an unthinkable amount of money. And the cost is endless. It doesn't stop at the buggy and, you know, however you decide to feed babies. It's all of those additional costs being poor, like you said, that as they grow up, but it's also education. It's, you know, a lot of people say they can't afford to send their kids to university anymore because they can't afford for their children to then get in that debt because who's going to help them pay it? And costs of salaries are not going up.

So how are you going to pay for these kids that you have without something, you know, having to give? We have to press you all now. It's like you've been smacking me in my hair. She's just depressed to hell out of her hair. No, I think you've made really Sean look like a light that we've all been thinking and actually vocalised it in a very, very smart way because we all have these thoughts, but don't really know how to kind of vocalise it.

So what you've just said, I think really kind of hits home because I think- And that's why you want people that have already got kids or people that don't want kids and childless by choice to support the funding and the access because whilst you may not think it impacts you and think, I'm alright Jack, I don't need to worry about it, actually it's your next door neighbour, it's your teacher, like your friend's teacher or family friend or your sister or brother, it's someone that you know is impacted and actually if you don't speak up again, you won't have a pension, you won't have someone to look after you in your elderly life because there won't be anyone to do it.

I was gonna ask that, what has been the most surprising or inspiring feedback you've been given from the community? So the people that you are actually fighting this cause for. Has there been a message you've sent like, yeah, what have they, what's been the most surprising or shocking thing you've heard? I think even though we're specifically called LGBT mummies, because again, that's our lived and living experience.

And we are specifically for queer women and non-binary people. We've always been trans allies. We've always ensured that actually we are supporting and listening to every part of the community, gay dads, gay men, anyone, because we're a community, right? We need to come together. And since post COVID and with trans rights dialing back and we have been vocal and we need to be activists but we need to take action.

We need to speak up and alongside people. And right now for a lot of our trans friends, they're frightened, they're really scared. They wanna leave the country and it's getting worse. And we had a message a while ago when we first started talking about it and someone turned around and said, and it absolutely getting worse. And we had a message a while ago when we first started talking about it. And someone turned around and said, and it absolutely got me, they said,

thank you for being our voice when we don't have one. And for me, I think that's why we do what we do, because I didn't have a voice when we became parents and I didn't have a voice when I came out. And it took other queer men, people in the community to step back and go We've got you we got your back like we're a community and we'll keep you safe And if we're not doing that for each other not just the community but heterosexual allies as well Yeah, if we can't come together when the most marginalized of people are being stamped on. Yeah, what are we doing?

Like what kind of humans are we so for me me, those messages, when it gets really tough, when we're getting, like you said, how tough is it got? We've had hate crimes, we've had death threats, it's got nasty, through the work we do, even weirdly around the IVF equality and all that kind of work, people don't agree with it. But for us, if we don't stand alongside people, it's that Molly A poem, and then no one stood for me,

and no one spoke for me, because no one was there. And I think we've got to stand by people, because right now, people's rights are being dialed back, and they just want to exist. So that got me that day. It was a tough week, and I got that, and I just was like, oh! But I think it fires you up

and makes you want to take action. We've been speaking to other people, like trans people that are affected at the moment, not so much about the fertility issues, just about like the change. And like they were saying that like the hate and the kind of this new wave of people being comfortable to be hateful. So brazen. So brazen is what's terrifying because whereas before people would have kind of said the off comment, now anyone who has even the slightest bit of hate in them feels comfortable enough

to say it, which is terrifying. I had that this week actually. You know, socials, where we do a lot of work on socials, my personal private space, I don't often not on it that much. And I saw someone that I'd known for a very long time who's in a position of power within a school and they posted the most hateful reposts of like an American politician.

You know, and it kind of sticks in your throat and then the comments underneath. And this person was just saying that they didn't think we should talk about sexuality in schools and that if you did, you were a predator. And the word predator like stung. And I'm like, wow, people are so comfortable right now. And then I was really upset.

It's a horrific. It's a horrible word. And people feel like that to me is like the one of the biggest microaggressions because it's something that's been used against queer people throughout history. And it's completely branded or given people this kind of sense that queer people are associated with predators. And that we're deviants and that we're there to incite this in kids.

And it's not that again, you can have an age appropriate conversation with a child about that stuff. But then this heterosexual man swooped in into the conversation and he stood up for our community and he was like, I have gay friends with kids. What are you gonna do when they wanna talk about their families in class? And there was lots of people that were allies

at that point and it gives you some hope. But to then see people so brazenly in positions of real power to influence children saying these things guts you because you think so people like me you mean that that's what you're saying people like my kids it gets even more deeply personal when it's your children as well you know. I think the good thing is at the moment I am seeing like this rise in hate but like you said there is also that rise in allyship and a lot more people coming forward, which is, you know, light in a dark time, I guess. And it's really reassuring

that like people are having conversations and actually, whereas five, 10 years ago, maybe they wouldn't have been the loudest allies in the room. But I think as things get worse, and unfortunately it's taking for things to get worse for them to get louder, but it is reassuring that hopefully the allies can outpower the kind of horrible people. I think you'd hope so. And I think there are people that are stepping up and speaking up for us, not speaking for us,

but speaking with us. And I think that that's great to see, but I also think it's rather telling when you see the organizations, the brands, the people of influence who are silent. And I think that don't stay silent because you don't want to be seen as a, you know, performative. Please speak up because your voice matters. So we need more people to speak up to say, this is not humanly right to be discriminating and treating people like

this. Please step forward and say something because there will be a queer person or a queer family who right now don't feel safe and you just saying that one thing empowers them to feel I'm not alone and I think that's what we need to do right now. People need support him. Oh, I love that. What is like one of the biggest misconceptions about queer families that you see quite a lot and you maybe want to bust or, you know, set the rumors to straight. Let the rumors not to straight. Definitely not straight. Set the record to queer maybe.

I think that all queer families are same sex couples does my brain in. You know, people assume that you're all female same sex couples or gay dads. We all have to look a certain way. We all dress a certain way, the usual stereotypes. But it's, you know, there's a lot of different people in our community that have families, like I spoke about poly families, queer platonic co-parenting. Now, there's single parents, there's trans and binary parents. There's a lot of different pathways to create your family when you're queer and making those assumptions can really be harmful. You know, if my wife and I have

been told, we are sisters, you know, once we've been told it 100 times, if she's been called my grandma once, twice, it's offensive and it's tiring, you know, to have to consistently out yourself in these situations or, you know, is your husband moving the car? No, my wife is though, you know, it makes those interactions really awkward and uncomfortable. But also, you know, you are sometimes dealing with people who have got, you know, religious views, who then your care is impacted and we've had that, and that puts you in an unsafe space. So it's just, those assumptions are boring as well. You know, educate yourself, go away,

learn about our communities that you know better. And it's okay to make mistakes, I always say that. No question's a silly question if you're coming from a place of good intent, you know, I might make a mistake, I'm really sorry. Can I ask, may I ask? And then that gives me the autonomy to say no or yes. But don't assume we're all the same

and don't assume that one of us is the dad or the man. Oh my God, yeah. It's boring and it's, you know, lacks integrity or emotional intelligence as well. So do you think there should be like financial incentives to have children? No. I think I know that in America they're looking at that. I find it really bizarre.

Create a robust system and process where you support people to have funding, to have good maternity leave, have good paternity pay, have good childcare. If you do all of those things, we'll have kids. We will do it, we'll have kids. We will do it, as many people will, but we've also got to consider that not everyone wants children, and that's okay, and they should be celebrated as well.

But give people the opportunity, and they will take it up. But if you're not doing all of this other stuff to support them having a family, and the costs that accrue as they get older, then people won't have children. So if you put the process in place upfront and support people, great. You're not giving us a voucher for going in

and having treatment or have kids. I find it really uncomfortable. Support people financially in the right way and then they will have children. It's not just the cost of IVF, it's the cost of sperm or an egg donor. Some people need an egg donor now as well. Exponentially, it's rising. But then you've got the costs of parking, congestion,

EULA's, you know, the lunch that you've got to have because you need to be eating a certain type of chicken and pistachio nuts and God knows what. And then it's the supplements, it's the nutritionists, it's all the things to get you to the point of pregnancy safely. There's a lot of hidden costs. And then there's medication, your medication changes. Now that's stressful. Mid cycle when you get a call and you go, oh, there's an invoice, it's just dropped in your inbox and it's an extra grand. And you're like, dear God, where am I going to find that money from? So it's all of the hidden costs as well that you've got to consider. And financially, some people might be on the brink of we can't try again if we don't get pregnant and that's it and lots of people get

to that point they go we've got to stop so there's a lot of hidden costs. Is there anything you would do differently when it comes to when it came to like the financially planning um having having children? We were kind of go hard or go home we got in debt more so at the beginning to ensure that we could afford to get to a point of a child. I would never say to anyone to get in debt, absolutely not, try and financially budget and save, but we didn't have that time, so we had to do that. But I would just say, be really mindful of hidden costs, consider what treatment you have,

because actually while you might go in for the cheaper option, you might come out being told that actually you've got a condition, that your fertility is depleted like mine was. I thought I was going in for IUI and it would be cheap and cheap when I'd get pregnant easily again. And I didn't. And the costs just mounted because that was our only option to move to IVF. So just considering what those costs look like. And also people never think about siblings if you want more than one kid. So we wanted our children to all be genetically linked

by their donor or other genetic parents. So we got a hell of a lot of sperm because we didn't want him to retire. So we had all this sperm frozen. How much does it cost if you don't mind me asking? It's a lot. So dependent on the type of vial and donor that you choose and where you get it shipped from, it could be anything from like £1200, £1300 up to like £2,000 a vial. You know, this is precious stuff. So, you know, we bought a lot of vials and we only had one left. So after we created our family, we had that one left. And so it's really important to consider. So do you all your kids have the same donor? Do they all have the same donor?

Same sperm dynamic. Yeah. That's not important for everyone. No, of course not. But for us it felt important. I didn't even know you could really do that, to be honest. I mean, I'm not that well educated unfortunately in IVF, but it's quite like an interesting. You are now. I am now.

I might write a book. But I mean, that's the thing. They're the things that we did consider quite sensibly at the beginning, but a lot of people do come to us through our support groups and the community and say, our donor's retired or there's no more vials and we want to go for baby number two or three

and they're going to have different donors. And for some people, that's devastating. That might be the difference between having another child or not. So that can be really difficult as well. At the beginning of your process, how did you and your wife decide what plan was for you and who was going to do what and how did that all kind of come about? It was always going to be me first because my wife had severe PCOS, she had a high BMI and at a very young age was told back then that she would never have a pregnancy, never carry a

birth to term. So in her head she was like, I'll never get pregnant physically. So we were always going to move forward with me, but then, you know, I love research, I love a spreadsheet. We can do this. And I knew in her heart, she desperately wanted that opportunity too. So I kind of kept pushing and with the clinic, they were really supportive and inclusive. And I said, can we get her pregnant? And they said, we can, it's going to be really tough, but we can do it. It's just going to be a long road. So for me, I was like, yes, why don't you go? You're four years older. I might have more time. So she went first.

But then obviously, I went after. And then obviously, I had fertility issues more so than she did. And our final child, she fell pregnant IVF first time. Like a egg warrior, she had all of these eggs. So you can't make an assumption that based on your age, that you're gonna be less or more fertile

because that's not always the case as well. So she went first and then I went after. Oh my gosh. You know, we're lucky in that situation. Not a lot of people both have the opportunity to be biological and non-biological mothers or parents. So we're incredibly lucky that we've had the opportunity to both.

Share the load, share the burden. I feel like you've actually answered it already, but basically the last question I had was how do you stay grounded and take care of yourself while leading such a meaningful and demanding cause? I think sometimes just taking a step back, it can be quite exhausting emotionally. And I think when you're seeing other people struggle so badly and going through loss and trauma and, you know, fertility trauma on its own is a trauma. And often you pack that up and you box it away.

And then when baby arrives, it comes out and it's that monster that you just didn't even know was there. So a lot of trauma can come up through that experience. But seeing other people and then just reminding ourselves consistently how lucky we are. And I think we always think that we did this with purpose because we were the people that we wish we'd had. We created the community that we never had.

And so I hope that we've given people that safe space to come and say, celebrate me, uphold me, support me and listen to me and say, celebrate me, uphold me, support me and listen to me and send me on my way and I think the best thing that's come out of that is that we get to you know have events and holding the babies you know of the people that we've supported or supporting people through those really difficult traumatic times because we didn't have really anyone like us to hold us so I hope that that helps people.

Oh, that sounds amazing. And it sounds like you're pretty good at giving advice. So we've got some submissions and some questions and we're going to ask you to give your unfiltered response or the best advice you can think of. Is it like a flash round where I have to be really quick or? No. Is it like a flash round where I have to be really quick or...? No, no, no. Oh God! Sometimes we wonder if it would be just easier to go abroad for treatment. Is that something

you hear a lot from same-sex couples and is it actually a better option? It's a really personal option. There is the opportunity to go abroad and of course for some people they like it because it gives them a break, it means they can get away and if they go somewhere sunny, deeply personal. Some people want to be close to home and sometimes people haven't got time to take off work. So it's dependent on what you want. And again, some people feel more comfortable going abroad and having that experience and it feels more fun and emotive, but others want to be closer to home.

So it's really, really personal and dependent. Just find the right clinic and find the safe space because that's more important than anything. Is it cheaper or is it about the same price if you go abroad? There are thereabouts now with obviously the travel and everything you have to pay on for but again it's an experience and I think that's what people are harnessing right now if you're gonna go through a difficult and traumatic journey potentially you want to have an experience where you can take the positives from it so it's really dependent but I know a lot of people that have had really

good experiences abroad. Love that. We keep getting told we have to pay for six rounds of artificial insemination before we qualify for NHS help. Is that really still the case in 2025? Yes. Sometimes it's six to 12 and it's dependent on your region. So your ICB, your integrated care board of where you live, dependent whether you have to pay that or not. So three out of 42 ICBs currently give female same sex couples access. That's it.

The rest of them either don't or you have to sell that six to twelve rounds. So it still is the case. That's what we're fighting for with the justice campaign. Gosh. So it's all based on where you live in the country? Based on where you live and who you love, basically. Right, great. Yeah. The next one we've got here, we had a really poor experience with a clinic that made assumptions

about our relationship and identities. Is there a list of queer friendly fertility services anywhere? We do work with trusted partners because we have sought out those safe spaces because we want to ensure people feel comfortable to go to places that queer people have used, but also that are input like inclusive and support people on that important journey. So there is a list on our website. But again, the best thing to do is make an informed decision, check out a clinic in person, see what they're, you know, the languages that they use, their forms, their staff, the way they greet you, the way they support you, do that first and then make a choice because it's a really personal experience to make a choice on. It's crazy, like, I mean, not only is it like a choice for every woman, regardless of their gender, not the gender, regardless of their sexuality, it's quite easily forgotten that

actually for queer women, the spaces that they attend, it's even more of a pressure because you're not just going in as a woman, you're going in as a queer woman, which I imagine some places have, you know, everyone, some individuals have certain viewpoints, which is scary. And it's institutionalised that erasure, that invisibility that you experience as a queer woman or person or anyone in the community or marginalized community. You experience that in everyday society, but going into a healthcare setting and healthcare system, the private sector in many cases tends to be better because you're paying up front, you know, you're paying for it.

But when you're going into the NHS, you often are on the back foot. So as a queer woman going into those spaces, you already feel unsafe. You already feel the lack of representation. It's systemic. So you're already on the back foot prepared to be offended, prepared to not be represented or understood. And again, there's a danger to that. So you're already thinking that's gonna happen.

You're cautious constantly, sadly. I can't even comprehend it to be honest. It sounds just like a constant wave of like pressure and emotion. Being on your guard, you're always on your guard. It kind of robs you from the experience of actually experiencing, you know, the process of like, you know, let's say for instance,

it's a well successful pregnancy in the end, but then because you've just been all guarded up, you've not been able to mentally prepare yourself or mentally put yourself in a state of like, it's gonna be good, it's gonna be fine because you're already guarded up. So I not been able to mentally prepare yourself or mentally put yourself in a state of like, it's going to be good, it's going to be fine because you're already already guarded up. So I feel like it's, it's upsetting because when you're looking for help or looking for care as well, you shouldn't be thinking, oh my gosh, I'm going to, you know, let me just have my back straight or drammie. You need to have that kind of sense

of like coming to the process quite calm and knowing that people are there to help you. So I feel like the fact that we are, healthcare system that is there to help, but at the back you're thinking, they're going to help me, but I'm going to go through a whole ton of emotions. I think that's crazy. It is also because when you've got the statistics, four times more if you're black or brown woman, 3.7 times more if you're Asian, there's the queer statistics as well now. So if you, again, tick those multiple boxes, you're well on the back foot, as well as being queer, as well as going through a system as a woman or person with eggs or going through pregnancy.

So I think you're already feeling unsafe, but when you've gone through a fertility journey in itself, you never rest, you never settle. Even when that baby arrives, you think, oh my God, what now? So you'll never really. It's only just begun. But that joy arrives, you get to that point of joy,

but up until that point, it's incredibly distressing. It's incredibly traumatic and you are on your guard, you're on your toes all the time. And some people don't feel like that, but often many people do because it's just again, systemic. It's the spaces that we navigate are not fit for us or fit for purpose. The healthcare system had a duty of care regardless, but sometimes there are those kind of systemic

issues that kind of don't play into that, which is fucking awful. If you haven't got a system that's fit for purpose for every service user or person that accesses it and pays taxes, might I add, then it's not fit for purpose because it's not equal or equitable for everyone. And equity is really important that you're accessing care based on what you need. And that doesn't happen for queer women and people. So again, that barrier is up. How can people support or show up for the fertility justice campaign?

I think if you're queer and you've already got children, share it. Speak up for other people that need access and need support on that journey. If you're not queer, be an ally, share it. Talk about it and explain why our community need access and support as well. You know, there's 16 organisations involved in this campaign. We are one loud celebratory activist collective voice, and we are pushing that forward as a vehicle for change for queer people, all queer people.

So if you hear it, you see it, speak up, talk up, and come along with us. We need people to walk alongside us and fight for it. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your incredibly personal story with our audience and with us today. It's been a pleasure to meet you and all the best of luck with this campaign. Thank you very much.

Let's hear it for Laura!