Tech Over Tea - Arch Linux From A Derivatives Perspective | Dark Xero

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

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Good morning, good day, good evening. I'm not going to do the rest of the intro. We're going to start like 10 minutes ago and then you got me sidetracked on asking stuff. How's it going? Welcome back to the show, DarkZero, TechZero, CreativeZero, Linux, whatever name you want to go by.

How's it going? Welcome back to the show. Glad to be back. You can call me anything you want. I've got DarkZero on the screen right now. Use TechZero on Discord. Use DarkZ on the on your forum i don't know yeah it's dark in the linux space it's dark zero because uh when i first got started in linux i was like yeah this is i'm coming into something and i'm in the dark. Right, right.

So I was like, what should I call myself? I don't want to call myself tech zero because tech zero is a general term for technology. Yeah, yeah. I wanted something for Linux. So I was like, I'm in the darkness, zero, darkness, dark zero. So I came up with that and stuck with it ever since. How long ago was that? I don't think I asked you that one last time.

A year and a half ago. Okay, okay. Well, today we actually have a topic planned out. Usually that doesn't happen. Usually I just go into these shows winging it. You were the one who asked me to come back on the show, specifically to talk about something that I have been harping on about way too much in my

channel that people are probably absolutely sick of hearing about me from. The Arch Linux grub issue. What a fun time that was. That happened like, what, it's got to be about a month ago at this point. I don't even know. I've lost track of it. Two and a half weeks ago. Two and a half to three weeks ago.

Okay. So, for anyone who somehow managed to miss that whole situation, the short story is that Arch Linux ships a Git version of Grub, because Grub has not had a

stable release in about 15 months. So, they ship this Git version of Grub has not had a stable release in about 15 months. So they shipped this Git version of Grub, and the version they shipped is completely busted. If you re-ran GrubMate config without first running Grub install, basically your system would either boot loop, or you wouldn't be able to find the kernel. Basically, you wouldn't be able to boot the system.

That's the main gist of it and while this affected arch linux core uh to some extent it affected the uh the dist the um the derivatives a lot quicker the main arch linux was still going to be affected it just wasn't going to be affected the same day. And you're a maintainer of one of these Arch derivatives, so... I don't know, where do we start here? Like, do we start with what your initial reaction to the situation was? How this was addressed on your side? Or, where do you want to go with this? Let's begin how I discovered the issue. I booted my computer in the store like I do every day, every morning, and it's running my distro. So I started it up and I went to do some stuff. I came back, I saw it on the BIOS. I was like, what is it doing on the bios i rebooted the computer and i saw it happen i was like okay that i must have done something wrong because the first reaction was

my first reaction was i must have done something wrong because i'm a maintainer i mess with the with the system a lot so i was like i started going in circles trying to figure out what i did last and started troubleshooting myself I couldn't find the cause of the issue and I all I could find was that it wasn't me so what could it be so I started digging on the internet on my phone because my computer was not running I started digging on my phone nobody mentioned it at all so this would have been like i discovered a zero day zero day issue i was like okay let me do this again uh first step i did was downgrade grub i ch rooted into uh my i booted my live ISO, CH rooted and downgraded grub. It worked. So I was like,

oh, wow, that's an issue with grub. I haven't seen an issue with grub in ages. So I mentioned, I started mentioning it in my circles. They were like, no, we don't have any issue because they hadn't received the grub update yet. Because you know how it's region-based, so each region receives an update differently than others. And then slowly it started showing up on my social circles. I was like, okay, I discovered, so I immediately posted about it on all my socials saying, don't update Grub. So I then went to Telegram where the developers are. So they told me yeah it's an issue with grub and they pointed me to the specific commit that caused the issue. They switched from 2.06 to suddenly git and you start seeing

R322 and a git commit number and i was like okay why did they why the hell did they switch to a git version of grub uh i'm not the no very well known so i knew that posting on their github was not going to get me anywhere so i told them some of the maintainers of Manjaro and EndeavorOS to see what the hell's going on, they started pointing to the exact issue, and then Dalto posted on the... That's the EndeavorOS guy? No, Dalto is...

Didn't he write the write up on Endeavor OS yeah no Dalto didn't do the write up Joe did the write up oh sorry my bad yeah Joe Camprat he is from Endeavor OS but Dalto did the write up

on on the bug tracker on the arch bug tracker so they kept following up, they kept following up, but I was still working on zero Linux on the beta versions and shipping the beta versions to my testers and whatnot. The decision we came up with is a little bit weird. I call it the Manjaro system We had to hold back the grub package

That was one of the options suggested So I had to go to a previous commit where before they switched to the git built grub Ship it on my distro while giving giving the ISO to my testers so they end up with a working system because I started ending up with I had other Issues that you didn't mention that nobody saw Mm-hmm was missing. You know how I don't know a few years back. There was an issue with the With the locales and grub missing LC Okay, yeah

Lang equals C in grub config. That was an issue from years back. It creeped up on my system again. Okay. I started getting two grubs. One dark, because I use a theme on grub. Sure, sure. It started

showing a dark grub. You hit enter on your selection. It freezes for five seconds and then shows another grub, a themed grub. It started showing a dark grub. You hit enter on your selection. It freezes for five seconds and then shows another grub, a themed grub, the fallback basically. And it shows the correct one and it works. So I had one grub that is broken. It fell back on another grub that was working. So I didn't understand what the issue was. I started looking for the issue. Nobody had the issue. I then talked to some people in the development. They said, yeah, just add lang equals C in your grub config and you're good to go.

Sure, sure. I was like, I looked that issue up. That issue is like from three, four years ago. Why is it creeping up on my system today? It can't be related to to the recent grub issue it's totally unrelated yeah no i've not heard anyone else mentioned that if if that was a problem other people were experiencing i definitely would have heard about that one yeah well uh since i i was the only one i was like okay my system just

doesn't like grub anymore I need to try to switch to system deboot and then one of my uh one of the guys on the team was like okay I'll post a video on how to use switch to system deboot I watched that video he makes the videos for our channel yeah I watched that video and I was like I'm not switching to systemd boot i'm not doing anything manual thank you uh because with systemd boot you have to uh manually do the configuration manually write the loader files and every time you install a kernel you have to do all the work not necessarily so arch linux this is a problem and also a benefit of Arch. A lot of distros like Ubuntu, for example,

when you have a new kernel, it'll actually have the kernel version number as a part of the kernel name. That's a problem. But on Arch Linux, it just says Arch Linux kernel or something like that. So you don't actually need to update the version number as you update your kernel version.

Otherwise, systemdb would not be useful on Arch. No, I was talking just that you have to add, if you, for example, you have the Arch kernel and then you want to add Xen. You have to add the entry for Xen manually. Right, okay, that's what you meant. Sure, sure, sure. And then if you want to set Xen. You have to add the entry for Xen manually. Right, okay, that's what you meant. Sure, sure, sure. And then if you want to set it up as default,

you have to edit the config file again. Yeah, okay. It's not automated. Yeah, it's not automated. I don't want to make... I don't want to ship a distro where manual work is required. I think there might be some third-party tools

to generate it, but I don't... I've not had any personal experience with them. Me neither. So I was like, stick to Grub. And Grub is the most robust thing. The situation with Grub and Systemdboot and other bootloaders is the same situation with LatteDoc and other docs.

Latte being the king or the queen of customization. Everything else comes secondary. Grub is the king of bootloaders basically. Everything else comes secondary if you wish to use whatever. But we started working on shipping. So I decided okay I will ship the pre git commit the version of grub on my ISO on the public release and I had to delay because of another issue we're gonna talk about later. But I was like okay this is what's gonna happen when release day comes. I'm gonna be shipping the old version of grub. Then somebody pings me on the on discord tells me hey hey don't ship the old version of Grub. Then somebody pings me on Discord, tells me

hey, hey, hey, don't ship the old version of Grub because there's a lot of CVEs that haven't been fixed in the old version. There's a few important ones that have been in the Git version. So I was like torn between two decisions.

Do I ship it or not? Sorry. I was going to say, when they started bringing in the Git stuff, the main reason why they introduced that issue where they had to basically break everything is one of the earlier commits they brought in had basically broken

the boot time, so Grubb was taking a really really long time to get to the like the you know showing it actually on the screen it was taking like two or three times as long to actually get to that phase um so they introduced that to deal with another issue and then the other that new commit was to introduce that to deal with that issue and another commit to deal with that issue and it's just like all of these commits sort of piled on top of each other to deal with that issue, and another commit to deal with that issue. And it's just like all of these commits sort of piled on top of each other to deal with these issues that only need to be here

because the Grub team has taken 15 months to ship a new stable version of Grub. Why are we still on 2.06? Why are we jumping all the way up to 2.12? I don't understand why that's the case. Me neither. understand why that's the case me neither and they they they are slating the the 2.15 in it's 2.12 sorry in october yeah so i'm like okay so in between that time we have to suffer all this all these issues i couldn't understand it and then then when the guy started pointing fingers at us distro maintainers and saying, oh, there's no issue, it's distro maintainers fault. They have to figure out the

issue themselves. And how did they fix it? By giving you a message in terminal, like, I'm a maintainer. I see people, how people use their distros. They, I mean, 0.1% maybe pay attention to the terminal output, but everybody else just hits update, they go by their day, they have their coffee, whatever. They never pay attention to the terminal. Some of them come back and say, I ran update but the password prompt timeout passed and I didn't pay attention and I'm like, so I know people don't read.

So what the hell? A message is not enough. Speaking from my personal experience basically the only time I pay attention to the Pac-Man output is when there's a package conflict and it doesn't go forward, or I'm doing something from the AUR

and a package doesn't build. Those are the only times I actually pay attention. Most of the time, it's just like, click yes, it just does its thing, and that's all that matters. Exactly. Exactly. So the Arch people assumed, like I said in a previous interview, they assume too much.

They assume the user pays attention. They assume that the user is knowledgeable enough. They assume this, they assume that. Stop assuming. The only thing you should assume is that the user behind the keyboard is dumb. behind the keyboard is dumb. Figure out ways to make them smart, like a pop-up. A visual pop-up, like an annoyance somewhere. Annoy the user

so they can read. If you don't annoy the user, they are not going to read. I think just a basic thing is just have the warning there in bright red text. Yeah. Simple thing. Either that.

Obviously, you can't... It's not Ubuntu, so you can't just assume there's going to be a certain environment with pop-ups and things like that working. But you're in a terminal. You can assume that they have color. Use the color.

That's basic stuff. But using the color... Here's where using the color does not work. Using the color, because you have to take into account that users like myself, I use lay-in for everything, including the console. So the lay-in colors, if they set it in red on their end, it'll come to me as blue or purple or whatever. So the idea is great.

Either way, it's not white. It's not the same color as the rest of the either way it's not white it's not the same colour as the rest of the text that's the important part it sticks out no matter what the colour is assuming they're not using a monochrome theme but please don't use a monochrome theme well unless

in console I've seen people using monochrome I've seen people use monochrome themes yeah so in my in console, I've seen people using monochrome. I've seen people use monochrome themes, yeah. So, in my... When it came to the hooks, you saw us, some maintainers, coming

up with the hook, and you saw it on my forum as part of the solution. It's not a great idea, but this is what they're asking you to do. So in case we had the hooks in place, or we didn't, it's the same thing. They have to run those exact commands

every update of Grub. For anyone who didn't see the hook you posted, just give a brief explanation of what your solution was for that. The hook, what the hook basically does, it just tells, instructs the system, whenever you see an update for the grub package, run the grub install

and then after that run the grub mkconfig. Just only when there is an update to the grub package. The maintainers of Grub start attacking this method. They started saying it's not a

great idea because in some situations this might break systems. I started doing my research on the subject because I don't want to shit something that would break people's systems. Those niche areas are very niche.

The areas where the hooks will affect are when you have secure boot on. Yes, absolutely. Because on Arch, you can still have secure boot on if you want to go through hell and back to set it up. Sure, yeah. In dual boot on the same drive. Okay, yep. With Windows on the same drive. Okay, yep. With Windows on the same drive. And multi-booting multiple distros.

Those are the three main areas where having the hooks might cause a problem. What about not having your boot partition mounted all the time? Oh, and that one too. Sorry, I forgot that one. Some people don't have it mounted all the time. Those four situations, this is where I see that the hooks might break systems.

But for zero Linux users, I know that I have two of those four. The dual boot on the same drive and multi-booting distros. So Zero Linux, Endeavor OS, Arco Linux, whatever. Because if you have Grub installed via another distro and you're using the other distro's Grub that might cause issues. So what I did, my solution was an intermediary one i created

a package called grub tools okay i copied the name from endeavor os okay but because one of the fixes in there is copied well shared by joe from endeavor was the the fix that fixes the entries in Grub instead of being zero Linux, Linux, on Linux, Linux. It's just zero Linux. I don't know why we do this. I still don't understand it, but whatever. They figured out a fix and they shared it with me. But the package is called crub tools. What does it have? It has multiple hooks. I created multiple hooks, not only one or two. There's a hook that does the grub install, and a grub mkconfig once there's a package update for grub. And then it has other hooks where it updates grub. So basically the mkconfig every time there's a kernel update, or they install a new kernel. And there's mkconfig, every time there's a kernel update or they install a new kernel,

and there's mkconfig on multiple times mkconfig, for each one for different reasons. Users can uninstall this package if they fall under those four different situations. I mentioned it on the release notes that I'll be sharing publicly once the ISO is out. I did a vote on my socials. I said, do you prefer the hooks in place or without the hooks? And I explained what would happen without the hooks. Without the hooks, the responsibility will fall on you, the end user, to run grub install and grub mkconfig once grub receives an update.

And in case you install a new kernel, you should run the mkconfig manually. So everything falls on your shoulders if you choose not to use the hooks. So which one do you vote for? The overwhelming people went for the hooks. They don't want to bother with any of that, remembering to run this or that. So it's not me who decided, they decided. Sure, sure.

I just didn't want to have this on my shoulders so I put it in on the users and I explained what automation versus non automation means so they understand, so everything is clear, I'm not lying, hiding anything. So they decided for the hooks and I told the users if you fall under these four categories please uninstall GrubTools first thing post-install. Yeah. Don't deal. This is my solution.

It's a very user-friendly solution. It's an in-between until the Grub team figure out a solution. If the Grub team want to attack me for including the hooks, they can't because I put both scenarios at play. So users who want to use them keep using them users who don't want to use them they can uninstall them it's quite simple it's not like something i'm forcing on the user it's embedded in the in the os so it was in short it the responsibility fell on us to figure out a situation each distro like endeavor os for OS for example, they went vanilla. They did the opposite. They went vanilla grub. They removed their tweaks, they removed their

grub tools, they removed their theming, they went back vanilla, they just applied a wallpaper to a vanilla grub. This is one way of doing it. I was thinking, I thought to myself, why do it that way? Users are used to having the theme, are used to a certain quality of work. So I was like, okay, so that's what you have. You fall under these categories, remove it. Dumb deal. Figure the things out on your... this is what you will have to do if you choose not to use them. That's it. It's up to you. So, yeah, this is one way of doing it. Other distros, I don't know what they did. Like, I'm looking into Manjaro.

I don't know what they did. Well, last I heard, they had the package in testing. Yeah, the broken grub package in testing. This is one of the times where Manjaro being Manjaro actually did something good. They kept the broken package in testing, it got tested, and then they

didn't push it to stable. Which is the way that testing is supposed to work, Manjaro. You did it once, you did it correctly once, do this again into the future. Um, I don't know what they're shipping right now, actually. I'm going to check the Manjaro repo. They're shipping 261.

Oh! Okay. Not even 297. That's a week ago. This is as of a week ago. Really? Why cannot find it?

Not Arch Linux. I know that Manjaro has a web Really? Why can I not find it? No, not Arch Linux. I know that Manjaro has a web thing to show their packages. They have R261. Sorry? They have R261 on their... Wow. Yeah, that's the best version.

I would agree, that's the worst version. That's crazy that they decided to go back that far i guess that goes back before the three commencement yeah but i i guess it's best to do that rather than going with 297 because 297 um not 297 was it three to two which was the first broken one was it 2-9-7 3-2-2 3-2-2-1

yeah well one of the commits was really slow then you had the commit that broke things 2-6-1 I think is the last safe commit that doesn't involve messing with stuff

and I think for Manjaro and for I guess for Arch Linux it makes sense to fix things yourself. And for Endeavor OS I can kind of see that as well. But Manjaro is this it's trying to be sort of like the rolling Ubuntu

and it really doesn't make any sense for a distro like Manjaro to try to push that fix onto their users Like that's not what that distro is trying to be I think it is definitely safer for them to just stick with the thing that works and then just wait out the problem Pretty much as long as they possibly can So yeah Manjaro being Manjaro this is where it uh it is better to be with manjaro than and some people mentioned i didn't see it but i could be wrong but some people mentioned that

the grub issue made it into some fedora spins i had not heard that one um if that's the case yeah i definitely not heard that one geez maybe it made it into the uh what's it called the version of fedora that is that ships all the latest latest and greatest like arch uh like, Arch. I forgot what they're called. Yeah, I'm looking at the... I finally found the Manjaro repo. It's shipping right now R261. That was as of six days ago. Yeah, like I said, R261.

Jesus. Wait, they did go up to 297 for a bit, and then even up to 32, and then reverted all the way back. Jeez. Manjaro! I think the derivatives did an exceptional job here. Whether it's EndeavorOS getting their write-up out very quickly. Whether it's Manjaro actually doing their testing

repos properly. Actually, did you see... What's the guy's name who runs Arco Linux? Eric. Yeah. His YouTube channel when the grub issue was happening had like 10 videos explaining how to fix the problem. He had a video out

way before I had anything out. The problem is that he's really bad at YouTube and no one saw the video. That's the only issue. Eric, yeah. So, yeah, Eric is good at doing that. He even creates playlists. What I love about Eric, he's very organized and he creates playlists for everything. He created around four or five videos specifically for the Grub issue. And first, he attempted to post the solution where downgrade Grub, chroot, downgrade Grub, boot back again into your system, and you're good, and hold the package.

Then, I was talking to him as he was making the videos, since I am based on a project by Arco Linux, I'm always in contact with him. I told him about the other solution. He posted a video about the other solution. I love how he does things and now in a bit we're going to talk about another issue that showed up, creeped up. It's not an issue. It's more like 21 years too late. But the solutions are out there. Each distro is applying them differently. So we just have to wait and see now what the grub maintainers will decide, which fix they will decide on.

But what I love about the core ISO team on Telegram is they are up-to-date, commit by commit. Commit by commit. Every time there's a commit upstream on something we rely on, they share it. So I'm really happy to be part of that group, although it's just a group for calamaris but sometimes we talk non-calamari stuff because it's related to our stability and stuff like that but yeah grub issue was a nightmare now everything has settled we we each figured out a a fix a temporary fix, until things completely get fixed. By which I want to transition to the new issue of Glybsie. What is the Glybsie issue?

Glybsie's had a bunch of issues recently. Specifically, what is the issue that you're mentioning? It's not the easy anti-cheat issue. That's what you're mentioning? It's not the easy anti-cheat issue, that's what you're wondering. When they broke the easy anti-cheat, that was the bigger nightmare. This one is a smaller one. Apparently

there was a way of generating, a method of generating locales 21 years ago on Glypsy, it was in 2001. Right. 21 years ago on Glipsy. It was in 2001. Right. But it stayed there

ignored for 21 years and now it shows up on Arch. So it's not an issue for users. It's an issue for us builders. That's why it's not a big issue.

Yeah, I don't know about this at all. Yeah, because it only affects builders. It doesn't affect the end user. But the thing is with Glypsy, as of 2.36-4, it changes the way it applies this locales thing from 21 years ago. It changes the way it generates. It's just a small generation thing. The way it generates it looks for a certain file.

If it's there, it does its thing. If it's not there, it breaks. What this caused for us builders is, since Calamares doesn't know of this method, so Calamares has to be updated to address the issue, but it adds a trailing space and backslash for all the locales. So what this causes is, of course, if you select English US with a space and a backslash, the system doesn't know what this is. So you will be able to install the system and once you boot into the system and you run, let's say, TopGrade or Pseudo-Pacman-SYU, instead of getting this Pac-Man eating the

the dots, you will get question marks because it doesn't know what locale to use. And some applications when you run them, like GTK applications, when you run them they would crash because the locale is like, what? What is that locale? Backslash? Space? I don't know what that is. So the way to fix it is very easy hold back the package again so we're holding another package back glips back is actually a big that's a much bigger problem though holding grub back's fine but glib c is just one basis for a lot of stuff like for building we're uh we're using glibc 236-3 yes and then it will show up as an update will show up post install you can update safely no problem but it's it's only for us builders oh

okay right right okay because it causes calamaris to uh to not understand the locales right so you generate the locales first and then when you update, because the locales generated doesn't cause an issue. Yes. Right, okay. Something like that, yeah. So the commit hasn't been reverted but it was fixed. It was upstream, not on Arch but upstream uh they applied a new commit that's what that's what i uh what i meant by saying that the the developer the the maintainers on the core iso group are following git commit by commit they sent me the commit last night they showed me that it's fixed upstream they just arch needs to package it up and push it on their repos. And sometimes Arch can take a week or two

to do that. Arch is weird sometimes about packaging. In the meantime, what? I was saying Arch is weird sometimes about packaging. Sometimes it's out the day of. Other times it's like, hey,

like there was an issue, I think last year where Arch was running like a seven month out of date version of GlyphC, so their entire C toolchain was completely out of date because the rest of the toolchain was using that

older version. I don't remember exactly when the issue was, but I know I did a video on that back when it happened. Same thing happened with Python when they updated Python to 3.10. Yeah, I love the 3.10 issue. That was fun. Whenever I mention that issue,

a lot of people don't realize, like a lot of people just forgot it happened. Like they blanked out of their mind, like, what do you mean Python broke things? Like, yeah, that happened. That definitely happened. As a result, we had to update every... We had to wait for Arch to update

every single Python-based package on their repositories. And that was a nightmare and a half. And I wasn't going to backport a few hundred Python packages on my repositories.

It would be a mess to do that. Yeah, so we had to wait, tell the people, don't update, and send the message out. But with Glipsy, this is a very minor issue. Users will not see the issue at all. It's just us maintainers and builders of ISOs that are having to hold the package locally.

The way I did it was I built the previous, I didn't build. You know, when you're building an ISO, it caches all the packages that it's including on the ISO in your Pac-Man cache. So I took the Glipsy-3, 2.36-3, the working version. I took it, put it on my repository, and I put my repository up on top during the build process. So it uses that one instead of the one on the public repositories. Right. So it's using the dash three for building. And after the user installs the system, just update as you normally do, and everything is good with the world.

But for us builders, that adds another hoop to jump. So, yeah, a lot of... But why 21 years too late? I don't get it. Dalto pointed us to the commit that was done 21 years

ago. And I'm like, okay, 21 years, that's a hell of a long time to hold on to a command but well yeah but they're pushing a fix soon hopefully and because I'm releasing I had to delay the ISO because of that issue I was supposed to release it last Thursday but I had to postpone it a week to see if they would fix the issue. They didn't. So I had to ship an older version, one version, older version of Glimpseed.

So with issues like this, how often are you actually seeing problems like this arise when you're trying to build a distro? Is it like this thing you hopefully see every couple of months or is it actually a fairly common occurrence not a common occurrence thank the lord uh but it's the nature of the beast i call it the nature of the beast because we're using arch yes and this is how arch is and forever will be because Because this is the price to pay for extremely fast rolling releases. You got rolling release like I watched your video last night

about the, what was it? I forget. No, it was TechHud's video. TechHud's video. TechHud's video about OpenSUSE and Fedora. OpenSUSE is a rolling release,

but not exactly. It's a Manjaro style rolling release. Sure, okay. They hold back a few packages. So, now, more than ever, I believe in holding back packages.

Us maintainers, we see the back end of things. Users don't understand. The users are, okay, so it's a rolling release, that's what I expect. This is what I expect. I expect the latest version of version the bleeding edge i don't want to wait that's it but if you don't mention it if you hold back a package without mentioning it especially for new users who don't understand know the difference between a tomato and a cucumber. So you just don't mention it. You hold back a package. Wait. This is what maintainers should do.

Maintainers are the people who make sure that the distro is stable. The end result is stable for users. It's not your job to... Sometimes I'm little bit too transparent for with my users every step of the way i whatever i everything i do i share i push this i updated that i held back this and i modified this i share everything because i like to be transparent with my users i especially that i don't sign my packages on my repositories, and some users don't like that. They prefer signed packages to trust, to build trust. But that's a virtual thing. That's not a real thing. With or without a signature,

some people can still give you malicious stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So because I don't sign my packages, I have to build trust somewhere else. So by sharing everything I do and seeing that I'm very transparent, the users are going to build trust slowly like that. But sometimes I'm a little bit too transparent. For example, when I hold back a package, I shouldn't mention it because some users are

going to see it negatively. They're going to think I'm starting to become Manjaro. And there's a, I don't know why there's this hate thing about Manjaro. Okay. Hate the company, but don't hate the product. Sure. If the product is good and works, I have had it for two years on my system, on my home theater system. I've been updating. I only update once a month and I get two gigabyte updates at once. I never had any issue, not a single one. I think the issue with Manjaro isn't when you're doing a specific use case like that. Like if I was to build a capture PC, for example, having Manjaro on that would work just fine. The issue you can see with Manjaro

is when you're using it as a desktop system and heavily making use of the AUR, because these packages are being held back, that's, in many cases, arbitrarily held back, because the packages don't align with what's supposed to be there on Arch, that's when things don't play nicely. Especially when it comes to dependencies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think what you're saying about selectively holding things back, that's very different to what Manjaro is doing. Manjaro is delaying the whole repo, like basically the whole repo, whereas you're selectively holding things back that are nuisance packages, like Gr basically the whole repo, whereas you're selectively holding things back that are

nuisance packages, like Grub, for example, and there might be a little glibc in the building case. This is very different to what Manjaro is doing. I think what you're doing is what a distro maintainer should be doing.

I do agree with you there. Like, you shouldn't just be like, oh, this is the latest version, it's completely busted. Enjoy. That's not my problem now. That's just the latest. No, I can't do it. It's not the stream's problem. You have to think about it this way. You have to think about

it that users don't know. Users know that a package is being held back. They don't know why, they don't know more. They think that holding back a package, no matter the reason, is doing the Manjaro thing. This is new users. I'm not talking about users who know Manjaro, who have the experience with Linux. I'm talking about new users. They hate Manjaro because they never get the latest kernel the day it's released. They never get the latest version of every single package. If you hold one package they're gonna immediately compare it to Manjaro. You got this kind of users and you got haters and then you got people

who don't care and you got various types of people. Our job is to explain to users the end result, not the reasons why. You tell them the system is stable for you, isn't it? Yes. Okay, then what are you complaining about? Done. This is what Manjaro tried to do. I agree with Manjaro's holding back. And the thing that Manjaro should do, in my opinion,

is they should make it even more apparent. The AUR is there. Use it at your own risk. It's not highly recommended due to us holding back packages. If you use the AUR, use it at your own risk. Stuff like that. They don't put all these notices out. There's certainly information on their wick in places like that they don't put all these notices oh there's certainly information on their wiki places like that but yeah i agree that like in um in hammock for example like if you enable

a ur downloads it should be like warning this is not supported on this operating system we hold back packages because of whatever reason they want to say, if you do this, it is on you. Yeah, a pop-up. Recently, that's another thing that I had to... This is... I don't know. It's, I think, affecting the downloads a little bit for my distro.

But I recently decided to no longer provide support for hybrid setups, meaning the distro wasn't supported but I don't have the knowledge because I don't have the hardware. Hybrid setup as in hybrid graphics? Yeah. Dual graphics like Intel AMD, Intel Nvidia and stuff like that. I cannot provide support for that. You want to use zero Linux on your hybrid system, even though technically it's possible, but since I don't have the hardware, by extension, I don't have the knowledge, so you'll have to figure things out on your own. I ship it,

and I recently included MHWD. I don't know if you know what MHWD is. Manjaro Hardware Detection. This is the tool they use on the back end to detect what hardware you have and install the appropriate drivers for. Right. But they do it on install time. Oh, is that? I do it post-install. So the way I do it post-install is I offer it to the users in my new tool. A developer finished the tool for me.

You click a button. So I explain to the users there's a button that takes you to the driver install page. You click if you have Intel or what ATI or AMD. So free open source drivers. You click on that free open source driver, it's going to detect what hardware you have and install the appropriate drivers. Without Intel, without Nouveau.

I removed the Intel and Nouveau drivers because those are shit. Mesa handles those way better than the drivers. But for NVIDIA and AMD Pro, the proprietary graphic GPUs, you click on the non-free button, it's going to install whatever. But for hybrid, that's a totally different story.

For hybrid, the way Manjaro has it in MHWD is you click the button, it's going to install all the open source and free drivers under the sun. Right. And then the proprietary drivers for your DGPU. Yeah. And then Optimus and NVControl.

So for some systems, NVControl works. For other systems, Optimus works. For Optimus systems, Optimus works. For non-Optimus, it's NVControl. But they install everything. And the system will activate the right ones for you. I'm not knowledgeable enough how to fix that. Just install the stuff that you need and everything else is not installed. But if the users don't use them just uninstall them but the problem with that for me I don't know some users come to me tell me Optimus doesn't work it's not launching hmm how do you fix that I don't know I don't have a hard

way to come up with this solution I see some solutions that people talk about online switch from SDDM to LightDM. That might fix the issue. So I tell my users switch to LightDM from SDDM. It works. Sometimes it works. When it doesn't work, still that doesn't work, I tell them, okay, that's on you. Buy me a laptop, an Optimus laptop, and I'll give you the solution. Without hardware to test on and to experience firsthand,

how am I to tell you which works and which doesn't? So I decided to, for now, until I am able to get an Optimus laptop of sorts, for now, I will not be providing support for that, and this is hurting a little bit the distro, because the way they read into it is, okay, so Zero Linux does not support

hybrid graphics. I'm like, no, it does, but I don't have the knowledge to show you how. I think that's much better to be doing than providing like you could either provide uh no solution or a half-baked solution like no i don't like i think i think the half-baked solution would honestly be worse because with no solution they can be like okay there's no solution

but this is based on arch i can do it myself with a half-baked solution it solution, but this is based on Arch. I can do it myself. With a half-baked solution, it's like, okay, this is not working. I don't know why this is not working. I'm just going to use something where it does. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm sorry, but buy me a laptop and I'll be able to help you. But still, some users are agreeing with the idea.

They were like, yeah, I have friends of friends of friends who have Optimus laptop. They will show me the solution or they go to the Arch Wiki. And the Arch Wiki is not as user friendly as people think it is. It's very technical. And they assume, again, that you have some sort of Linux knowledge. I think that's very dependent on the page. I do agree that when I was trying to set up Optimus on my laptop, I never managed to get it working.

But when I was trying to do it, yeah, for that it is very technical. But I think that's also due to the fact that setting up Optimus is very technical. Like, you have to be a really technical user to know how to set up hybrid graphics. Or setting up different bootloaders. You want to switch from Grub to Refined, for example, or

Refined to Systemd Boot. These are fairly complex operations. But when we're talking more about something like reconfiguring your mirrors, it still does make assumptions about you understanding what mirrors are and why you would

care about them, but it's a lot less... I think it is more user-friendly in that case, because that is a more user-friendly operation. Yeah, it's a very simple operation. But I made even that easier for the user. I just added a button in the tool, you click it, it will a very simple operation. But I made even that easier for the user.

I just added a button in the tool. You click it. It will do rate mirrors. It will do rate mirrors, and it will populate it with the fastest mirrors. Oh, you have a fast speed again. Yeah, and for fixing the new PG keys, you just click a button. It's going to do it all for you. All that is thanks to Eric because he made videos about them so I

integrated them in Xero Linux. This is what I call... Eric is and should be the example to follow in the Arch universe. Like instead of hating on people, a user posting an issue on the forum and replying with hate to that user, if you don't know how to do this, you shouldn't be using Ubuntu or whatever. You shouldn't be using Linux. Go back to Windows and stuff like that. Like Eric, for example, for the Arch people, go to Eric's YouTube. All the solutions he posts work on every single Arch-based distro under the sun. Because it's Arch solutions, not Arco solutions.

It's not Arco-specific solutions, it's Arch, it's generalized solutions, so you can use them on Endeavor, you can use them on anything but Manjaro. Because Manjaro does, they do things different. Manjaro's not Arch.

Manjaro's Arch, like Ubuntu, is Debian. Like, they're technically differently. Manjaro is not Arch. Manjaro is Arch like Ubuntu is Debian. They're technically based on, like, Ubuntu is technically based on Debian. It technically builds its repos from Debian, but it's not Debian. And the same is true for Manjaro. It builds its repos from Arch, but it's not Arch. It uses a separate

set of repos. Yeah, so, for anything else, those solutions work. I applied a lot of those solutions on my distro. I applied them on Endeavor OS. They all work. So if you want a knowledge base that is very friendly and very, extremely

dumbed down to such a point that even a kid can understand, go to Eric's channel. It's 3,000 videos and growing. Now 3,005. Yeah, Eric has...

His channel's great, but as I said before, he's really bad at YouTube. That's his only problem. No one watches his videos because his videos are not like, you know, hitting the YouTube search optimization or the search algorithm.

They're not shared. They're not shared. They're great videos, but no one knows they're great because no one sees them. Yeah, he needs to advertise them more. He needs to spread them more because

for that kind of library, he shouldn't have only 15k subscribers. You should have a million and a half subscribers. Because the amount of knowledge there is on that channel alone rivals only the Arch Wiki. Well, just basic stuff.

I'm going to pick a random video. Arco Linux 3004 Left WM DB Nemesis Theme Python Pi Will Change look your terminal. I think he's actually hit the character limit for a YouTube title. Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, some of those videos, or a lot, should I say, a lot of his videos are not very important. Well, even the ones that are important, like the grub one um the grub one

yeah but i'm saying there's a lot of his videos where he talks about left wm he talks about dwm those are not very important those are very targeted at users who use those. But for general knowledge there's at least half of them, 1500 videos that are very important to watch. Like he's got the grub issues, he's got the glibc issue, he's got the Python issue and a fix for that. He's got the grub customizer issue where it broke due to the grub update uh all these important issues are there you just have to search his channel yeah you have to use the search a lot on his channel you cannot just keep on scrolling and scrolling or else you'll grow old before you reach description is in the title so it should be easy enough to search for

well yeah but because of the amount sheer amount of videos you have to scroll forever no i i i can respect the fact that he does multiple videos a day like what is like there's some days where there's like three videos that come out like what is this how do you have how there's so many here there was there was there was a day where he created seven videos and what i love about eric instead of instead of answering the users uh to address an issue uh directly on tele on discord or on his forums he makes a video yeah i think that's a much better way to do it because you're always gonna to have more and more, like especially if it's a big issue, like the grub issue, for example.

He would have had a bunch of people come and ask, like, hey, how do I fix this? How do I fix this? How do I fix this? How do I fix this? Watch the video. Just send them a link. That's all you need to do now.

Yeah. I love that about Eric. I love it. I love it. I always find the solution for my issue just two days after the issue arises because he makes a video. A guy asked, why isn't my right click work, my contact context menu working? Here's the fix. He makes a video. And what I love about the way he does

videos, he just turns on simple screen recorder and he starts working on showing the fix. He is very natural. He doesn't pretend anything. He doesn't overdo it. He doesn't create an OBS backdrop or design or whatever. He just turns on simple screen recorder. Is that about me? it just turns on screen screen a simple screen recorder no no no but i'm talking about myself because i told you earlier before the we started the stream that for the next experiment i'm working over time to make sure the design is good i even added you know those circuit board transparent backgrounds to show that i'm a geeky person. I added them to the backdrop.

I added an animated backdrop and stuff like that. This is going overboard. I was talking about myself, actually. He doesn't do that. He just turns on a simple screen recorder, does his thing, turns it off, done deal, call it a day. That's why he comes up with videos so quickly, because all he has to do is launch an app,

click record, done. So that's why sometimes he ends up with a muted video, because he forgets to enable the audio, because he switches between machine and machine and machine and machine. He forgets to, or he forgets to increase the microphone volume or whatever. So he doesn't fix them. He just leaves them, and he adds muted to the title. That's it. He's so natural. He's like, I don't care. If they cannot hear what I'm saying,

the solution is visual in front of their face. So words need not be spoken. I didn't realize he actually did that i'm looking at it right now he does just add mute to some of them oh that's awesome yeah and and some of them are like 40 minutes 30 minute videos and 30 minutes of muted I'm like, hmm, okay. That's awesome. So he is such a, how should I put it? He is humble. He's so humble he just does his thing and

let's continues by his day he's very simple he doesn't call over complicate things and I love that about him I over complicate things because today I received a message on telegram about my I shared the upcoming ISO with a few users. I deleted the ISO now, but I shared it for a short while with a few users. And the first thing I get is there's no transparency on this ISO. I don't like it. I'm like, there is transparency. If you are used to KVANTUM, which we used to use in every release, now we're using it lightly.

So Dolphin, by extension, is not going to be completely transparent. Just the sidebar is going to be transparent. That's the way it should be. Because with KVANTUM, I noticed something that tabs, you cannot tell tabs apart. Because everything is treated as one block. So if you open tabs, you got titles of tabs, but you cannot tell a tab from the other. There's no outline.

So I'm like, I love the transparency of Kvantum and everything, but I need to tell my tabs apart. What utility can I use instead of this? Somebody tells me about Lightly. I install Lightly. I use the default settings. I didn't even touch it. It's so good out of the box that I was like, okay, I'm including it on the next ISO.

Removing Kevantum. And the thing with Lightly is if you have Kevantum and Lightly installed together, they don't like each other. They're not friends. Because if you have a dark theme set, it's going to undo your dark theme. they don't like each other. They're not friends. Because if you have a dark theme set, it's going to undo your dark theme. It's going to undo your icons. So the system does not understand because I think they both hook into the same thing.

So even if you have only one of them active and the other isn't active, but having them installed together is just like putting two things at war with each other. Right. So I had to remove give anthem, but this time around I... Instead of... because I have a reset switch in... or reset option in the tool, if you mess up... if you try to... okay, I don't like your rice,

I want to do my own rice, but you mess things up. You click a button in the tool. It should reset everything to ISO defaults. Yeah. But this time, instead of forcing the current defaults, some users prefer the previous defaults where I use KDE panel on top and only the LatteDoc. And with the LatteDoc developer main maintainer leaving the thing thing now it's

not dead. I've been following the GitHub activity. It's community driven now until KDE picks it up. But now there are commits provided pull requests and stuff like that by the community. So since it's still alive somewhat, it's holding on by dear life, I still shipped it with the ISO, but users don't want to use LattePanel, LatteDoc because it uses too much resources. Right. So if people, the previous layout was KDE panel, LatteDoc, so less resource use. KDE panel, let it up. So less resource use. So they want to go back to that default.

So now they have the option in the reset, apply previous defaults. So it's going to go KDE panel, let it up. So our job as maintainers is to read people and see what is feasible, what isn't feasible, but listen to the users. If you don't listen to the users, you're going to end up with hate more than... and you're going to end up people not using your distro. This is not good. So I listen to the users and even I listen to users who told me for running rate mirrors, was not coming out with a verbose output.

Because I had the flag, no verbose. They were like, oh, I'm typing my password, but nothing's happening. I was like, because I told it not to be verbose, because if it is verbose, it's going to include all the hashtag comments in the Pac-Man mirrorless. They were like, we don't care. Those are just ignored, right?

Because they're hashtag. I was like, yeah. They were like, show us a verbose output. So I listened to the users, so I made it verbose. You have to listen to the users. Sometimes you have to tell the user, I'm sorry, but that cannot be done. Unfortunately, it cannot be done. Sometimes the users are stupid. True.

A lot of them can be sometimes. I think the problem I think there is a point where you have to listen to the feed. This is the same on YouTube. It's the same with pretty much anything where other people are involved. I think you have to listen to the feedback. That that is very important always listen to the feedback you're getting

but you also have to weigh that feedback against what they actually want because a lot of the time people say they want one thing but what they actually want is something completely different or you'll get a very small subset of people who say they want this thing, but most other people are fine with the way it is, or even prefer it to be something completely different. It's very difficult. I'm sure it's the exact same with the distro. It's very difficult to work out exactly what people are trying to say,

and what the general consensus for anything you're doing actually is. I would agree because there are users on the team who made it to the team. For example,

one of the users made it in the team because he is very good at security-related issues and he's got the idea that zero in it should include at least the minimum amount of security. I'm like me as a person don't care about security. I have nothing to hide. I have my Windows install is stuck as it can be, telemetry and all. I'm like, Microsoft, you want to read what I'm typing? Go ahead. I'm not talking about my family.

I'm not talking about religion or politics. So I'm just talking Linux. I'm talking Windows. I'm talking games. So I don't care if they collect telemetry, they know where I am. Just by having a smartphone, they already know everything about you. So there's no sense in securing something if you already own a cell phone, a smartphone. By owning a smartphone, you already compromise your security, your anonymity or whatever you call it.

So what's another system that's going to do that it's already done if only if apple has your information but apple is in cahoots with google is in cahoots with microsoft is in cahoots so they already know everything there is to know about you if you have windows it's just if you're already done. So I told the guy, this is the way I think. But some users, I agree, they care about their security. They have certain ways to circumvent stuff. I was like, how about a compromise? I ship zero Linux with absolutely no security.

Not absolutely no security. I mean the defaults of Arch. Yeah. And then we write a detailed thread guide on the forums showing users who care about security how to secure their system instead of doing it by default because there might be some users like myself

who hate anything related to security because it slows down their system. It's more processes running on the background it's more whatever uh i don't even ship a firewall on my distro you want a firewall you can click a button in my tool simply because i want zero links to be as light as possible and i achieved that people keep coming to me telling me, how the hell did you make KDE behave so fast? How did... I've run Manjaro KDE. I've run Endeavor KDE.

I've run multiple other distros with KDE. There are slow AF on my computer, and they're talking about their old systems. I'm not talking about newer systems. But on my old system, your distro is faster than any other distro with KDE. I'm like, this is what you get if you don't enable a million services in the background for security, for firewall, for what it is, for that.

And then you start adding stuff. It's up to you. You shape it. This is the whole goal behind ZeroX. So I'm like uh okay so he agreed and he wrote a thread on the forum showing users how to secure their their system uh i no no you no other users talked about security they were like we're using zero next and we're happy with it. Nobody had a concern about security. Only he did. That's why his nickname is Sekna. So he cares about security. Okay. Use the forums and show people how to do it.

But sometimes users come to you, I want, for example, I want the plank. I don't want latte dog. I cannot ship plank because it hasn't't been updated in ages and it has this bug where it shows the plasma shell as a duck icon. Randomly. I'm like, yeah. And it doesn't run on Wayland. So for users who use Wayland, it doesn't work. It just has no Wayland code because they stopped developing it way before Wayland became a

thing. On Wayland, it may fail with the following error. Oh, you can run it on Wayland, but you need to force it to run under ex-Wayland. Yeah, so

I'm like, okay, I'm not going to ship that on Zero Linux. LatteDoc just works on Wayland. Okay sometimes on Wayland it runs in a window at the bottom. They fixed that bug ages ago, but some users are using an older version. I tried ksmoothdoc. I showed the users all of that. I showed them, here I'm trying ksmoothdoc. Maybe I replace Latte with ksmoothdog. I showed the users all of that. I showed them, here, I'm trying ksmoothdog. Maybe I replaced LUT with ksmoothdog. ksmoothdog is more broken than plank. So I'm like, here, I tried kyrodoc. Because DT made a video about kyrodoc recently. I don't know why. It's something that is at least 15-20 years old, but

it doesn't work. So back to luck, here we go. So I showed users every step of the way. CairoDoc, yeah. And KSmoothDoc is a QUT-based dock, but it has no features whatsoever. You right-click on an icon, it freezes. You click on an icon once, it doesn't launch. You have to click it multiple times to get it to launch. And it's got this shadow thing that breaks the look and... doesn't work. I tried everything. I showed the users, I tried everything. Nothing works better than Lattic. Sorry, I have to ship Lattic. They were like, yeah, ship Lattic, keep what works. I'm like, you should have told me that from the get-go. Why did I try all these

docs? So sometimes, yeah, users can be, they don't know what happens because here's the thing with users. They don't know what's happening on the back end. On the back end, to them, they can see what is on the front end. They see how it looks. Oh, this looks good. This looks better. Whatever. Ship this.

Ship that. Oh, yeah, but you're sending me a screenshot from like five years ago. I checked the code. It hasn't been updated since. So I cannot ship that on zero Linux. So they have to understand the backend. If they don't understand the backend, there's no way you can convince them that what you're shipping is the right

thing. So that's why I try my best to be as transparent as possible. Now I want to ask you something. Yes. Because I've been talking for a while. You have been I've been just sitting here it's nice I can just chill You've seen the recent hubbub People liking Fedora and Fedora based distros

I have seen a lot of there are a lot of people my discord who are very big Fedora shields right now I've got some guys who are using Fedora Silverblue. There seems to be a lot of hype around Fedora. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, but Nobara specifically. Nobara, the glorious egg roll version of Fedora. I haven't seen as much about that but i have heard a little bit made a video the linux cast made a video recently about it uh and tech hut also made a video about

oh finally an amazing stable amazing distro whatever for for my laptop it's one of his latest videos like two videos ago. Nobara is what he was talking about. Yeah. I installed Nobara. I used it for five days. Four days. It's an amazing distro.

Fedora Spin. I've run a lot of Fedora Spins. This is the most stable one yet. For my system. I don't know about other systems. But for my system with an NVIDIA card. Fedora spins, this is the most stable one yet for my system. I don't know about other systems, but for my system with an NVIDIA card, Fedora, because I use the KDE always, I don't use any other desktop environment. So the KDE spin of Fedora, the regular one, just freezes on boot. I cannot use it. And booting the live ISO, it freezes because I have an NVIDIA card. I booted Nobara.

It just booted just fine, installed the system, and then prompted me. It said, oh, we detected you have an NVIDIA card. Do you want to install the drivers? I clicked OK. It did the drivers, and now I'm running it. And something magical happened. You know how last time I told you I can't log in to Wayland? You did say yes

well with Nobara I was able to wow that is something that I have not had a single distro KDE that uses KDE doing that's the only one

the only one and of course Wayland being Wayland with NVIDIA, I open the NVIDIA settings, it doesn't give me anything. It just tells me, that's the card you have. Do it what you want, but that's all we're going to give you. Switch to X11, you got all the settings and everything, you can do whatever you want. But go to Wayland,

nothing. It's like, okay, we give you a glimpse of Wayland, but that's all you get. So I was like, cool. What I loved about Wayland though, is it remembers where Windows, on which monitor the Windows were open. Like if I open Discord on the left monitor, it remembers it's on the left monitor. Oh, there must be a KDE thing, yeah. Yeah, I'm talking KDE. Because in KDE on X11, it doesn't remember.

Oh, sure. It doesn't. No, no. I have to think about why it's like that. Yeah, I'm not sure why they can do that on Wayland. Yeah, no. I have to think about why it's like that. Yeah, I'm not sure why they can do that on Wayland. Yeah, I'm not actually sure. Because I think in Wayland, they all, like you said,

in one of your Wayland videos, many Wayland videos, they open in an ex-Wayland container. Yeah, yeah. An in-window container. I think that's why they remember. But on X11 i open i open discord on the left monitor reboot the shut down the computer come the next day open discord it opens on the right monitor i guess i'm just too used to it i'm just too used to a tyler where it just opens on the monitor that i'm currently focused on i'm not k. KDE. I think it's a KDE issue.

But KDE and Wayland, it works just fine. And the smoothness that I got on Wayland is unparalleled. But if I can't use half my apps, and if I can't control my

graphic card through the settings, what's the use of Wayland? it's got a lot of limitations, I get it it's good, it's getting there but in one of your many Wayland videos you mentioned the key binding blocking thing

I don't care because I don't use the keyboard for key binding I'm a mouse user so I'm like okay that would work for me but where are my settings my apps like I tried to share a screen on discord

it got a black screen and I'm like okay you sold me Wayland I can't use it so back to X11 I go. Wayland screen sharing works is probably the best way to put it. In very, very heavy air quotes. You need to have Pipewire installed.

You need to have your portals working. You need to make sure a bunch of variables are being set in the background. Then it should work. Usually. Most of the time sometimes well, I tried doing it recently with someone

I just showed them a black screen although it's Nobara and Nobara should have been shipping should have shipped all the requirements or is that something users have to do wait, what were you trying to share the screen in? This was... Discord.

I think Discord might also specifically have some Wayland issues. And I was using it as a flat pack. Yeah, I think... I'm pretty sure that... Oh, wait. I should have... Oh, maybe it's a permission issue.

No, I think because Discord is built with an older version of Electron, their capture system doesn't work properly right now. No. Actually, Discord is now using Electron 20. Oh, did they update? Oh, I didn't hear about that. 19 or 20. 19 or 20.

Yeah. Oh, did I update? Oh, I didn't hear about that. 19 or 20. 19 or 20. Yeah. Because I received the Electron 20 update via Flatpak, of course, because I'm using the Flatpak version of Discord. But it showed Electron 20 and Discord app. So they were in the same update. Wow. Yeah.

And now I can no longer build Deezer, for example, because Deezer is using Electron 13. Ah. And if I tell you what Deezer is on the AUR, you're going to laugh. The name's ringing a bell. Deezer is like, what's it called? Streaming music. Ah, yes. Spotify. It's like Spotify, but a different app. Yep, yes. Spotify.

It's like Spotify, but a different app. Yeah, yeah. A different service. But basically what Deezer is on the AUR is a Windows setup program. What? Yeah. If you try to build Deezer on your local machine, instead of installing it directly from the AUR, you download the PKG build and you build it on your system, you're going to see Deezer-setup.exe.

And what the build process does, because it's an extractable exe, it's an archive, it extracts the exe, then bundles it up as an arch package. Because there's no Linux version of Deezer. There's only a Windows and Mac version. That's it. What? It's a Windows app running through Wine. Okay, sure. app running through wine okay sure we've gone back to the uh early 2000s where we would if we wanted to run netflix we would run firefox through wine what yeah what yeah these are is like that

since it's relying on electron 13 to oh because what it does is it extracts all the components and then builds an electron app Yeah, no, I'm looking at it right now. The first command in the in the prepare section of the AUR build script is 7z on the exe There you go you learned something about these Running through electro through Windows Electron. I love that, that's amazing. It's dumb, but it's amazing. I love that Archies will go through stupid hoops like this to get something working if they really want it.

They're doing the same thing now with Teams, since Teams for Linux is discontinued. now with Teams, since Teams for Linux is discontinued. Officially discontinued. The FlatHub are going to remove it from there. They haven't removed it. They should, because it's no longer official. But they haven't removed it yet. They're waiting on that.

But the Arch Repository, AUR, still has. I don't know if they switched to the Windows version yet, or they're still shipping the Debian version. At this stage they're using the Debian version. The Debian version. But since it's going to be discontinued, the first people who are going to remove it from the repositories are the Debian people. Because, you know, Microsoft has its hand somewhere in there. So I think the only workaround at that point for users if users want to use teams on Linux is to ship the Windows executable through wine. There's a lot of that on the AUR. If you don't pay attention to the PKG builds, this is one thing I would recommend anyone to do who are building from the AUR, read the PKG build.

If you don't read the PKG build, since the Arch user repository is not controlled or maintained by anyone. It's a trash bin of, not in a bad way, but it's a big box with random build scripts. Sure. If you don't read those build scripts or if you don't understand how to read build scripts, ask someone who understands to read the build script for you because you never know. You might end up with malicious code

because the github does not scan everything you can host a virus on github and none is the wiser so be careful read the PKG build pay attention to go to the to the package github if you if you almost all packages on the AUR have a link to the project GitHub. Click on that, scan the code, read. Otherwise if you install a package from the AUR and it ends up messing up your system, you only have yourself to blame. You did not read the PKG bill.

I have been through that and I'm not gonna tell you how much of a nightmare it is to get your system back up and running. There was one package that wiped my Windows partition completely. Wow! I just installed it and I wondered why it was taking a while. And then the next day I came, I decided to boot into Windows. I was like, okay, it's Sunday. I need to update Windows because Sunday we have free non-capped Internet. So I'm like, let me take advantage of that. Let me update Windows and my games because I play games on Windows.

I don't like playing games on Linux. Fair enough. Plus, because I'm a cheater I run trainers in the background. So I tried to boot into Windows, Windows was non-existent. Even the drive was not showing. I was like okay well it's one thing for Windows not to boot but another thing for the drive not to show up on the BIOS. What that tweak did was disable that drive in the BIOS. I was like, good thing I figured it out, being a maintainer and all, but I was dumb not to have read the PKG build. What the PKG build

was doing was downloading some sort of DLLs. And I was like, downloading a DLL on Linux? That doesn't sound right. And it was compiling something, and it was injecting something. And then I was like, delete that package from the cache, from everywhere. And I tried to report it, but it went nowhere. The package is still there.

I don't remember the name,, but it's still still out there I just Did a issue on their github that was like it did this this this this isn't that they closed my issue without fixing it They just hit close It was supposed to nuke your drive So people please read the picag build if you don't and it breaks your drive. So people, please read the PKG build. If you don't and it breaks your system, it's on you.

You learn things like that by maintaining a distro. Because I build everything from the AUR and I put on my repository. If I don't read the PKG build, I'll be shipping something malicious to my users. So I build, I test, then I ship. There are some things I cannot test like green with Envy because it's on the AUR but I don't need it. Because I don't have hybrid. Envy control, I can build it, ship it but I cannot test it, I don't have hybrid. So there are some things that, but come on En NVControl, it's a known package. I don't know why it's not on the public repositories. It should be, but NVControl is on the AUR, if I'm not

mistaken, or is it only green with NV? No, maybe I think it may... no, NVControl just recently made it to the community. Oh, okay. That's a step up then. Yeah. And Green with NV is on there. Green with NV is a tool that allows you to tweak your GPU. I don't understand why it stays on the AUR because it's tweaking the GPU. It's not something they want to put on the public repos. Optimus, for example. Optimus should be on the public, but no, it's on the public repos. Optimus, for example. Optimus should be on the

public, but it's... No, it's on the AUR. What? Yeah, Optimus Manager. It's on the AUR. Optimus Manager and Optimus Manager Qt. I had to build them and put them on my own repository to ship them to users. Where the fuck's the package

I can't find show me Optimus Dash Manager it is on there what yeah and there are literally Optimus laptops in existence

why aren't those packages on the main community repositories at least no one knows yeah that one's weird to me like that's a driver basically that's driver level software but it's on the aur not on the main and the guy has i talked to the guy he's like i petitioned to go on the community repository not reply it's falling on deaf ears sometimes there are things that are odd but that's arch Linux when you go arch it's as if going to a circus you got yeah clowns funny enjoyable you can use it on the other hand you got scary shit like funny, enjoyable, you can use it.

On the other hand, you got scary shit, like all the issues that arise from the flamethrowers and the knife throwers and all that. That's the issues, the Arch issues. So expect you're going to see all of them in one place in Arch. So don't blame a distro if something breaks along the lines, because everything that's being used on Arch-based distros, like me,

like Arco, like Endeavor, they're all coming from Arch upstream. All we're doing is customizing the experience desktop level, but underneath it all, it's Arch. So issue A, issue B, issue C, D, whatever, it's all it's Arch. So issue A, issue B, issue C, D, whatever,

it's all related to Arch. There are some times where it's related to the themes we're using, like lay-in theme. I use the lay-in theme with every release because it's my favorite thing. I discovered, and I reported it to the developers, and they're looking into it. They've been looking into it for months now.

I don't know why is this taking so long? But the arch the the package from the AUR does not work It installs the scene you can apply the theme but the the KDE panel should have rounded corners, right? But not When you apply install the package from the AUR, it's not and it's not transparent either It should apply a certain amount of transparency as well. It's not applying it. Why? They cannot understand because they read the PKG build.

The PKG build is correct, but for some reason, it's not working. They don't understand why. But I need to have it as a package because in order to ship it on my distro i need it as a package so i'm like is there a solution not yet we'll let you know when we come up with one that's a month ago uh i'm shipping it as is um okay no transparency for i'm not using the kde panel anymore i'm using latte dog soteDoc is transparent and everything. And by the way, you know how people hate Flatpaks because they don't use the system theme?

Sure. Fix that. There's an override you apply to the system that will force it to use any GTK theme that you have in your... Well, that's the problem with Flatpaks. For example, I ship with Lane, Lane GTK theme that you have in your... well, that's the problem with flatpaks. For example, I ship with Lane GTK, it will use Lane GTK, but if you install a theme, you have to apply the GTK theme manually in the system settings for flatpaks. There's no way to tell a flatpak which theme to use. Now it uses whatever GTK theme you have applied on the system.

That's the override that I have applied. What if there's another way to do it? I thought there was. There's an official way to make Flatpaks use themes, is by installing themes from the Flathome. Yeah, no, that's dumb. No Doesn't work because it's not system-wide. So The only workaround is to apply an override. I have a I have a guide on my forum You apply override that override is but applied by default on zero. So it should use some flatbacks,

still have this issue where they don't use the system theme. Still, some of them might have a Dartsy toggle in settings somewhere. But I applied this thing. And I'm targeting flatbacks now. In my tool, I offer more flat packs than regular packages. Like Brave, not from the AUR, but as a flat pack. On Google Chromium as a flat pack, not from the AUR. The reason for that is friendly distro should be friendly. So if you ship, you offer an this row should be friendly. So if you ship a package, you offer an option for two users to install like a package as regular which has dependencies and a lot

of a lot of these issues. They have to jump through dependency hell. So sometimes Arch randomly decides okay that package should go back, should go to the AUR. But that package is part of, is a dependency of another package. Arch doesn't care. This package goes to the AUR. We don't care what it is for, what it's used by, whatever. It goes to the AUR. We don't like it on our main repositories. Their decision might be right or not, I don't know, but sometimes this happens and it breaks that package. But what I like about Flatpaks is all containerized. So even, for example, some packages require an older version of that dependency and Arch updates, updates and updates and updates, but that package will no longer work if that

package is updated because it only uses the older version. So with Flatpak all is integrated and now what I love about Flatpak is they're now shipping differential updates instead of redownloading the whole 700 megs or 300 megs or 400 megs it just downloads a few kilobytes as update. So for that reason I decided to ship in the tool more flat packs over regular packages. Specifically for gaming. Utrus flat pack. What's it called? Not Steam. What's it called? Protonop? scheme. What's it called? Bottles? Proton Up,

QT, Flatpack. All the Minecraft clients, Flatpacks. What else? The thing that is like Lutris, what's it called? Do you mean Bottles? Is that what you're thinking of?

Bottles as a Flatpack as well. And the other one, the... Oh! Do you mean bottles? Is that what you're thinking of? Bottles as a flatback as well. And the other one, the... Oh, um... Long name. Uh... Long name? I'm not sure what you're talking about then. Well, anyway.

So I shipped those as flatbacks. OBS flatback. This is another thing about Fedora Why about no bar? Why didn't they ship the flat version of OBS at all? They use the The regular no, that's wrong. Just use flat back the official version Yeah, exactly How did I know because it was version 2.8.0 and the flat it was version 2.8.0.

And the flatback was 2.8.0.1. And it didn't have the browser doc thing. Really? Wait. Wait, it's a... Okay. I can understand why Arch breaks it, right? But Glorious Eggroll is the one who maintains Nabara. You understand the gaming side. You should understand

this streaming issue and the reason why it's bad on Arch. Just use the goddamn flat pack. Stop. Distro's, please stop shipping broken versions of OBS. Just use the flat pack. That's all you need to do. And the obs just use the flat pack that's all you need to do and the nice thing about the flat pack version is that although there are necessary permissions

because you know flat packs sometimes require a flat seal to give them the permissions whatnot but obs ships with all the required permissions out of the box. No need to do anything. And it's very stable. It's amazing. I had less crashes with this version than I've had with any other version. And so I'm offering all these as flat packs. Okay, less categories, but more packages versus tons of categories, but less packages.

But the users have the option if the users would still want to use a aur version or a arch version of a certain package they can still do that via terminal via pamac i'm not forcing anything on the user it's just i i had a decision to make uh in the tool what should i offer yeah and I started talking to the you to my users asking them you prefer this you prefer that I took all users feedback and then I compiled it in my tool and I said okay those are the packages I'm going to ship as regular packages and those are the ones I'm going to ship as flatbacks mainly the ones I ship as regular packages are tweaks like TTY clock, like WTTR, like cool retro term and C matrix and stuff like that. Those will never make it to FlatOut. Those are tweaks, those are

terminals. So I'm like, okay, cool. So that's what you get. So all in all, today's discussion was issues, circumventing issues, the hard work that this causes for us maintainers. But if you don't see anything happen for you, that doesn't mean that we weren't the ones on the back end fixing those issues, so you don't see them. Sometimes we share those issues with you guys if it affects you in the end but if it doesn't we do our best to make things uh as seamless as possible uh arch is very it has it's a tectonic plate your plaque that keeps moving underneath your feet if it breaks don't attack the maintainer just mention it to the maintainer so the maintainer looks and does the research to figure out a workaround so uh arch this is the nature of the beast please don't don't attack the maintainer. We are the connecting

people between you and the Arch package maintainer or the Arch maintainer. So if you have any issues, report them to us. We will report them to the developers and they will see how they can fix issues. If they don't fix them, we try

our best to fix them ourselves, implement some fixes of some sort. But yeah, let's just put it this way. August slash September were not a great month to be on Arch. It was a bumpy ride. It's slowly being solved. And yeah, if you want to join the Arch people who use Arch-based distros, just expect those issues.

Don't come with high expectations. Don't have high expectations with Arch. Expect issues. That's all I'm going to say. One thing I did... One thing I did want to ask you about was the response that was initially provided

by the Arch team. The sort of lack of response, the then pushing the issue off to someone else. In FoxBron's case, pretending like the issue didn't exist else in, in Fox bronze case, pretending like the issue didn't exist on base arch Linux. What was your sort of initial reaction to the way that arch handled the

problem, especially because they did handle the problem way later to everybody else. Obviously they have their own concerns. Like they are the ones who have to deal with the other, the package itself. But what did you think about the response they took to the whole situation?

I usually take the neutral approach. I don't like to judge too harshly. I just was surprised. I was really surprised but then I thought they might have a lot on their plate so they're trying to shove it under the rug temporarily until they figure things out so but the way they started putting it on the moment they started putting it on distro maintainers that made me wonder i was like

why is he putting it on us i did the same research you did for the video uh and understood one thing out of it is that yes it is on distro maintainers to implement grub in a certain way. But when they came up with a solution, you do it yourselves. That just was the how we say in French,

la gouttière des bords des vases. La gouttière des bords des vases, it's the thing that caused the water to seep out of the cup. So it was the thing that got me angry because just telling the user to fuck off and basically fix it on their own, read the terminal output, that was a little bit I don't know if facetious is the right word but expecting expecting too much other users users don't read don't read so don't implement this

don't expect the user to read implement it. I understand that this is the only solution for now, but don't implement it as haphazardly as you have in just the terminal output. Like you said earlier, either put it in red, different color, or make it a pop-up or something. pop-up or something. But don't attack user maintainers who came up with solutions. Like, we tried to come up with a solution as quickly as possible, and the hooks were the only feasible thing

that we could come up with quickly. So don't attack us for coming up, trying to come up with solutions, because the way you handle the situation is the way users behave on the forums. Like when you go to the Arch forums, in a lot of parts of the forum, a user posts, okay, I'm having this issue. If you don't know how to fix it, you shouldn't be on Arch. Yeah. They handled it that way, kind of.

No. You should own up to the issue and tell users to either instruct users to either stop updating Grub or come up with better solutions, not haphazardly solutions. The way it was handled via solution-wise was unacceptable. All this blaming other distros, it's not blaming other distros. It's like their way of... I consider people behind Arch or maintainers on Arch like robots. That's what I put in my head before I attack someone on Arch. Okay, problem A, solution A.

They're like robots because you have to think about it. They're continuously coding, continuously working, continuously coming. So it happens where they're burnt out and they want to get it over with. They come up with these answers. I don't disagree with that. The only thing I disagree with is the way you implemented the fix. You didn't go to the work. And then when we tried to offer you or to ask you if this fix was good or not. You just said fuck off it know that

You attacked us immediately so no Either fix it or just don't update grub until you yourselves see that it's stable enough for users to to switch to you're not testing it correctly internally so okay lucky bios users now the bios users are lucky because they never saw that issue even dt he has a modern enough system he still uses MBR for some reason. But he got lucky this time. But tell the UEFI users, don't update to grub until we tell you to, or don't push the update

until you think it's stable enough not to cause this issue. Don't. And this, they're not the only ones. There are other packages that switch to Git instead of the stable. So I'm like, what's happening in Arch? Recently, Arch has been in a kind of... I think they're currently in a turmoil internally or something.

Something's happening. We don't know know about, we're not aware about. I'm not here to judge. It's just something must be causing all these issues in the back end. We don't know about. So I don't think we should judge. The only thing we should say anything about is the way they came up with the fix. The fix is not acceptable. They have to undo all this and go back to the drawing board and start coming up with better ways of informing the user.

It's a communication issue. It's a problem with the communication on their end. That's all. It's not a problem with Grub because the Grub developers are doing things the way they should. They push a commit, they test the commit, it's on the Arch, and they're shipping that commit. Because in their eyes, they have to fix their CVE issues before they fix Grub. And to them, too many CVEs in a package is not acceptable. So they ship, even if they have to switch to Git, they will do so without syncing.

So please don't ship Git Arch. Just stick to a stable package, then ship the next version. But jumping from 2.06 straight6 to straight to 12 I don't know what happened in between. I have no idea what's going on with the grub I'm sure there's some reason why they took so long to release the next version but I don't personally know. We're not developers it's it's all not very transparent that's one issue I have they're not very transparent. That's one issue I have. They're not very

transparent. Like I learned through other guys that you have to subscribe to GitHub, to package GitHub and get notified of every single commit to stay up to date on every single commit. But my problem is I cannot understand everything I read. I'm not a developer I don't understand things like that You have to dumb it down for me, but so far on the grub side of things They're fixing it. There's a There has been two or three commits since and

Glipsy also three commits since so they're actively working on it, but Arch is At fault here. We need to fix that thing but other than that I'm happy with the fixes we shipped either with hooks or without hooks, but The fixes are there although we had to come up with them not Arch so but I look at it as an opportunity to learn for us and for the users to start to learn understanding the way Arch works yeah but I'm not gonna judge too

harshly it's just the communication issue that's how I see it between the maintainers and the arch maintainers well the last thing I wanted to ask you about was I noticed on the Zero Linux website there is that major project announcement that you're

basically dropping everything besides KDE Plasma and swapping from the monthly ISOs more towards the quarterly ISOs, which I think is... I think considering how small of a project it is, is probably...

It's definitely going to take a lot of weight off your shoulders sort of splitting down what's going to be handled on what's going to be dealt with on your distro okay uh kitty plasma has always been the only one i just shipped xfc and gnome for a short while trying to maintain them but too much for one man to do. So I decided to kill them off. Plus, GNOME is not my thing. Fair enough. From what I've seen, not a lot of people like it. As for XFCE, I only did XFCE because one person asked.

They had a laptop from, I think, 2012, 2010. And they wanted to run Zero Linux. I I was like I'll try XFCE but XFCE is too complex to everything you right-click and stuff it was too complex for me for a KDE user to handle so I was like stick to one thing and do it right this is the Linux philosophy isn't it the new philosophy so do one thing do it right so i'm shipping only kde as for the quarterly thing it's not to to to remove weight off my shoulders is because if i keep shipping a monthly iso for me it's like users have certain expectations and changes in every month's iso right and then i looked at manjaro they do things. Manjaro is adopted by a

lot of users and Manjaro hasn't included a major change in such a long time. The only major change that I noticed between 2015 and 2020 or 2021 was a dynamic wallpaper inclusion. Now it's white for day and dark for night. So that's the only thing they included in the 2021 release. I was like, if they can do it, if they can get away with that, why not me? So I decided on a – although they only release an ISO every month because it's for new installs. So the new installs have the latest version of packages. But still, you install the distro.

Right after installing it, there are already updates. So it's pointless. Not really pointless, but to a certain extent. So I thought to myself, Arch being Arch, if I ship it every three months, it's not really bad. But it would be bad if I shipped it every 6 months or a year because it's a rolling distro and if a user for example I uploaded

the ISO today and downloaded it in a month or sorry in 4 months 5 months post install he would have like 6 gigs of updates and that might break things so I decided every 3 months have like six gigs of updates and that might break things. So I decided every three months.

Why? Because if I want to introduce new features, that will give me time to test and over test and test again for the feature to be 100% stable. Like for the tool, for example, the new tool written in Rust now used It used to be written in YAD, very basic language, but now Rust, it's way better.

So I needed the developer that did it for me because he has his own distro. He didn't have a lot of time to work on the tool. So by having three months, he was like, okay, that's enough time. I can release the tool by then. And he did. He did a very good job. So three months is testing period. I see it as a testing period for me,

not removing anything on my shoulders. On the contrary, it's adding more to my shoulder because I will be testing more and more stuff right but that allows me gives me the time to test those things instead of hurrying everything up and releasing an ISO every month but that's not to say that zero Linux from this release onwards, which I'm going to release on Thursday, onwards is going to become like Manjar. Everything that I needed to be included on zero Linux has been done. The tool is done and the tool will get updated as time goes by. But that's just a package you will receive when you update the system.

That's what zero Linux will be. when you update the system. That's what Zero Linux will be. The releases every three months are going to be iterative updates, just package updates, and maybe under the hood fixes and tweaks, but other than that, it's just that's it. From this month's release onwards, this is what Zero Linux is. I might change the wallpaper for Christmas, change the wallpaper for Hanukkah or Easter or whatever, just to go with the period, but that's it. And it's going to be every four months, and you're going to get just iterative updates, no fresh installs required, because some users voiced their concerns telling me oh I just installed

your zero Linux now you're telling me I have to do a fresh install to get the the latest under the hood tweaks I don't want that anymore I hate people complaining about that so in order to be able to be like that I shouldn't want that anymore. I hate people complaining about that. So in order to be able to be like that, I shouldn't do too much tweaking that require a fresh install. Just push the update as packages. So basically, slowly, the whole system is becoming a package. Right, right, right. If you do it that way, you can push any changes to current users without asking them to do a fresh install. So that's it.

Zero Linux from now on is going to be just iterative updates. I'm done with tweaking the system and changing the look. Because you have to look at it that way also. If reviewers review this version of Zero Linux and you change the look completely later on, users are going to expect what they saw on the video. But when they install it, they get something completely different. That's not going to be very positive. So stick to one thing that works and that's it.

And make sure it works well. That's it. That's what I'm going gonna do from now on and yeah zero onyx is gonna be like that I'm done introducing new features I'm done trying to do things that I don't know how to do and for a single user like myself who has no knowledge coding-wise or development-wise or drivers-wise, I cannot reinvent the wheel. There are other distros out there like Manjaro, like Ubuntu, like the big distros out there like Pop!OS. They come up with driver patches and things like that. If you want something like that, those are the distros for you.

Zero Linux is not trying to reinvent the wheel. Zero Linux is for those people who love KDE and want to have a blank slate to start building on. That's it. And starting the December build, because every three months, so three months from this month is December, the December release, starting from the December release, I'm going to try a new method out. It's going to be a trial basis for three months. ZeroLinux will become a build-only distro. For the ISO, it's going to be put on hold if you want to destroy you should build it in some cases if you cannot build it I might we might talk

and I make you and I build you an ISO or show you how to build an ISO or install art somewhere and build the ISO on but it's going to be a build-only ISO for a short period of time. I want to see how that goes. I might do it for a month. I might do it for all three months. I'll see how it goes. But I want to teach people more about Arch. I want to get people to go low and dirty with Arch. See how it all functions. And it's very simple. It's just a couple of commands, you're done, it's building. But you have to be on an Arch-based distro. Again, ignoring Manjaro. But you have to be on an Arch-based distro, be it Arco, be it Endeavor, be it... I don't know what else is on Arch.

Anything on Arch... Oh, ignoring Manjaro and Arctics, because Arctics no system deal. Yeah, yeah, of course. So, besides those two distros, anything based on Arch you can build Xeronex on. If you don't have an Arch-based system, we'll talk, I might build an ISO for you. But for a month, for 30 days, I'm gonna make it 30 days. So mid-December to mid-January, it's going to be a build-only ISO. We'll see how that goes. If it goes negatively, I'll go back to the ISO. If it goes positively, I'll goes negatively I'll go back to the ISO if it goes positively I'll include it

as an option but the ISO will still be there I just want to see how the build it yourself goes I want people to learn Arch I don't want people to just use Arch without learning so yeah we'll see how it goes and this is the first time I announce it

so the people will hear it hear it here first well that's as good of a place to end as any um hopefully that experiment goes well hopefully you know people try it out and see how see how uh building it goes um judging by some of the forum posts you put up you seem like you're gonna have a well-documented way to do it, which is very important for something like that. And who knows? Maybe someone's going to go from that and say,

hey, maybe I want to go and do my own thing now. Now that I know how this ice rebuilding process works, maybe I want to try it out. That sounds like it could be fun. That's the whole point. I want the try it out. That sounds like it could be fun. That's the whole point. I want the people to learn and start because at the end of the day,

if you can build zero Linux, you can start modifying and forking it and making your own distro that suits you best. This is the whole point of Arch is the learning curve. You learn. But like DT said, if you really want to learn Linux, you do LFS.

Don't do LFS. Big waste of time. Do anything besides LFS. Spend your time building Arch ISOs. Yeah, so Arch Linux is doing LFS the easy way. You have everything, the whole environment ready for you. You just have to configure the package list and you build your ISO with GNOME, with left WM, with BSBWM, whatever you wish. This is what I want because zero next is not going to live forever yep yep yep

at some point I keep saying this at some point which is for me very soon because of issues in my country not because I don't want to I'm not going to go through the details but we're just going to say that there will be a point because things are going backwards instead of forwards.

We are currently on the hunt for someone who knows how to do this very well. Because we want someone to pick up the project. To pick up the project and make it continue, go on and on and on and on, become better and better. Without changing too much the vision but we're looking for such a person right now I can no longer do it we have a year left so in that year we're trying to find someone who can maintain the project and take it over work it but anyone currently the code is free it's on github you can fork it right now fork it modify it rename it of course you cannot release it as the same name fork it build it rename it and do your own thing it's there the code has been on github from day one i don't see i don't

understand why people haven't forked it yet. There's only one fork so far. You have, once I get the build only version of Zero Linux, maybe then people will start to understand and start forking and making their own version. Zero Linux is not forcing you to use KDE. It's what I

prefer. That's how it is, but the code is out there. Remove KDE, put whatever you want you just need to know how to do that and i will have videos eric already has videos on that i don't know if i should make videos i'll just link to his videos on on the forums but just replace the the kde packages with no packages and you got none. So with time, I'll try to my best to make it easier and easier for users to do so, but learn,

fork, build, please. The code is there. I'm not going to charge you for the code. It's, I'm not hiding the code. It's not a proprietary code.

It's there for you to do that. So, yeah. And good luck using learning, and we'll see how it goes with the build-only method in December. It's a test that I think I will fail, because users tend to want to download used Don Deal rather than having to build. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe December

will prove me wrong. Well, let people know where they can find Zero Linux, find the tooling, all of that stuff involved with the project. Alright. The Zero Linux website is zero-linux.xyz. The forums are linked on the website.

You can find me on Discord. You can find me on Telegram, YouTube, comment on the videos. And one last thing I want to say, I have a fundraiser running currently to help keep the lights on. I have a fundraiser running currently to help keep the lights on. Because if you do research on Lebanon and the current situation Lebanon is in, you will understand why. The costs of doing this are rising to such an extent I can no longer afford it or it's becoming more and more difficult to afford it. So hopefully in the links in the description, there will be a link to the fundraiser. Any amount would do.

If a lot of you donate just one buck, that's enough. It might be enough to be able to sustain the project and to allow it to go on. And yeah, that's about it I'll make sure that's linked down below just send me the link after the show is done I'll put it down there

as for me my main channel is Brody Robertson I do Linux videos pretty much every day hopefully not talking more about Arch Linux issues but we'll see how that goes as for the I've got a gaming channel that is BrodyOptimPlays. Right now, I think I'm playing Cult of the Lamb

and The World Ends With You. And then if you're listening to the audio version of this, the video version is available on YouTube. If you are watching the video, the audio version is available basically anywhere you can find a podcast. There is an RSS feed, so just chuck it into your favorite app and you'll be able to grab whatever you want to grab.

Do you have a final word? what do you want to say it's been great as usual talking to you and keep up the great work i just missed one thing you don't make a lot of app videos as often as you usually do. Yeah. I'm very aware. People have mentioned this. I enjoy the app videos, but there's all like this. There's so much other stuff to talk about. That's the thing.

Like, yeah, it's good to be very, it's like, do like one or two, uh, app, uh, videos in a week, uh, while you do the rest of the stuff around him

but uh yeah you did the pack seek recently the one i told you about uh there's a lot of other neat tools uh well i've got a video on the works on distro box for example that that's one i really want to talk about yeah and uh I'll send you a few neat ones later on you need to check out because as I maintain Zero Linux I discover a lot of tools so yeah

I'll definitely be willing to at least check them out alright cool well that's going to be it for me then and I'm out