Tech Over Tea - BlendOS And Ubuntu Unity Maintainer | Rudra Saraswat

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Today we have Rudra Saraswat on the show, the kid behind both BlendOS, Ubuntu Unity and a ton of other really cool distro projects, I don't know how he has the time for it all even at his age. =========Guest Links========== BlendOS: https://blendos.co/ Ubuntu Unity: https://ubuntuunity.org/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/RudraSaraswat1 ==========Support The Show========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson =========Video Platforms========== 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBq5p-xOla8xhnrbhu8AIAg =========Audio Release========= 🎵 RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/149fd51c/podcast/rss 🎵 Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tech-over-tea/id1501727953 🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IfFpfzlLo7OPsEnl4gbdM 🎵 Google Podcast: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xNDlmZDUxYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== 🎵 Anchor: https://anchor.fm/tech-over-tea ==========Social Media========== 🎤 Discord:https://discord.gg/PkMRVn9 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TechOverTeaShow 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/techovertea/ 🌐 Mastodon:https://mastodon.social/web/accounts/1093345 ==========Credits========== 🎨 Channel Art: All my art has was created by Supercozman https://twitter.com/Supercozman https://www.instagram.com/supercozman_draws/ DISCLOSURE: Wherever possible I use referral links, which means if you click one of the links in this video or description and make a purchase we may receive a small commission or other compensation.

Good morning, good day, and good evening. Welcome back to Tech of a T. I'm your host, Brodie Robertson. And today, I don't know how to describe what you do because there's like a giant list of it. Welcome to the show, Ruja. What projects are you still working on at this point that you would like to describe yourself by?

Because I know this be, I've looked at your Twitter description description i've seen like various phronix posts come up with your name in them with like 20 different projects um introduce yourself sure um before i begin by the way um yeah i didn't know that when phronix started concerned me i didn't that's fair existence good plan so yeah yeah um so um yeah i So yeah, I'm just a 14 year old developer that maintains a bunch of open source projects and distributions. So I develop Ubuntu Unity, BlenderOS, Ubuntu Web, which I'm now merging into BlenderOS, you know, that's a plan. And then yeah, quite a few others. So Una, which is just an AUR helper um you probably know me from ubuntu unity or blenna was um everyone watching this so yeah um and aside from that

i'm just a high school freshman um you know just getting along with life so yeah that's me yeah you've i've known about like you've been doing stuff in this space for a bit now, but, like, how old were you when you first started just using Linux, like, at all and getting interested in this FOSS space? Probably about, I think about seven, eight. I was about to turn eight, I guess, about the time. So before that, I used to develop Android apps, you know, so I started programming. Wait, before that, you developed Android apps? Yeah.

You'll still find a few, by the way. If you just search for my name on the place, you'll probably find a few. Most of them have totally gotten removed by now because there were a bunch of privacy policy violations. I guess because I didn't even know about it. Existence.

Yeah. I'll just leave it at that so um yeah I used to develop Pandan apps I yeah and then just was just low on the on the systems I used to use uh my mom just gave me um some of her you know she just handed down some of her old old broken down laptops um and yeah I mean those were really slow. You know, I think I repitched Core i5, Core i3 with four gigs of RAM, you know, 1366 by 168 resolution screen, that kind of stuff. And that was just slow because, you know, Windows on startup itself, you know, just idling it would use up about two to three GBs of RAM. It wasn't the best experience.

Building basic Hello World apps would take up to 2-3 GBs of RAM. That aside, that would take 10 minutes of simple build, so I just decided to try stuff. I tried

increasing the swap and stuff, the way you would do it back then on Windows. It has not helped one bit. I gave Artingos or Anarchy, I think, a try. I'm not sure. It was one of those two. I gave one of them a try and it worked fine

enough for me, I guess. But then, you know, I mean, most of the gifts you find about Artenogs that try to make your life easier, then, you know, I mean, most childhood you find on, you know, most of the gifts you find about astronauts that try to make your life easier, you know, especially if you're a newbie, that stuff just did not exist back then. So I gave, I gave Ubuntu a try after that. It was just a much smoother experience for me, because you know, I was new, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what I was doing even so

yeah, so Ubuntu, it worked pretty well for me. I then joined a bunch of communities, discourse and stuff and I would just write a bunch of scripts and post them on there you know. And then eventually I came up with Anubuntu. So that was the original name of Ubuntu Unity that I was later advised by Alan Pope to rename to Ubuntu Unity you know. Obviously since you don't want, you do not want a flavor of Ubuntu being named Anubuntu by Martin Taylor. Yeah. So,

yeah, I mean, that's, I guess that's how I started out. So this was back in 2020 when I released Anubuntu slash Ubuntu Unity. So, yeah. So, when you started using Ubuntu, what version was that in? 17.4. 17.4. Last release of Ubuntu should use unity 7 okay because I guess most people probably would ask especially you know

the people that seem to have this love for unity like they've been using Linux for a long time and you're 14 so you having been around using linux back when unity was even part of the equation is you know kind of just weird for people so the you i guess you you liked unity for what it was then and what what was that experience like and then what did you not like about what gnome was then and maybe let me know how you like you feel about gnome in its current state now yeah so first off um unity was the only desktop environment that worked seasonally well for me on that out there not in terms of performance no um when we talk about when we talk about you know stuff like the positioning of elements

like the positional positioning of uh the menu because that was in the panel and that was perfect for me because i had limited i had limited 16g less shade that then the dog was on the side of course does that all of that stuff so that just made it a plain better experience for me you know using unity 7 as my you know i didn't even know about the existence of any other desktop environment back then, because I just got started. But yeah, after GNOME came along, first of CSG, so I just hate them. Yeah, I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna sugarcoat this. They're absolutely weird. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, but first of all, I was only first off, I was anyway dealing with, I was anyway dealing with really limited screen usage, you know, because I had 768 pixels, you know, of height

on that laptop. Okay. And then the CSG just added, you know, the CSGs and all of that stuff. So especially when you had the terminal open multiple tabs and that kind of stuff. That just wasn't a usable experience on GNOME. So, yeah, that kind of stuff. And, you know, I did move to Bitter Heart right after that. Of course, I did not stick with that laptop. Not in for a year, I guess, after I switched to Linux. But, yeah. That was just a horrible experience in Ganoa, man. You know, later, after that, it just started hopping.

You know, I switched over to Fedora, then back on Arch. Bunch of random esoteric distributions I found on Google. Just tried those. Yeah. Eventually, I just returned to Ubuntu um after that you know um and I joined the community like I mentioned so joining the discourse and stuff and then you know there were active discussions around thinking back Unity 7 so I was like you know what why don't you why don't I just build a few installation images for it you know since people since people especially wanted you know people that have the same kind of hydro as i was or just people in general left the nose that were just nostalgic about unity 7 you know about that

experience so so i just built a few installation images and it worked out pretty well for me because then after that um i mean the bunch of unity first of all and pope um tweeted about the thing about the bunch of unity and then within two days of its release um i mean that just got I mean, Ubuntu Unity, first off, Alan Pope tweeted about it, I think, about Ubuntu Unity, and then within two days of its release. I mean, that just got the press excited because, I mean, after that, Jason Evangelo, in fact, did an article. He did a write-up about Ubuntu Unity on Forbes right after the release, after its initial release, you know.

So, yeah, I mean, that worked out pretty well, and I continued maintaining it ever since, you know. Yeah, I mean, we're going to be releasing the 24-4 LTS, you know, in April, so, yeah. The fun thing with Unity is I've gone back and looked at really old forum posts from back when Ubuntu swapped from Gnome to Unity, and people had the same sort of feeling about the swap then as they did when they swapped from Unity back to Gnome people were very nostalgic about what it like the thing they started using that's you know that's what they wanted from Ubuntu they wanted that desktop experience so

making this big switch it just it really did alienate a lot of people over time people have gotten used to it and the people who you know they most people have gotten used to a bun it's not like gotten used to gnome it's not like a bun to just lost popularity when that happened but you definitely do see those people who have that ongoing nostalgia for it and it might not maybe nostalgia is not even the best term. Maybe people feel like it genuinely is just a better experience for them. And that's great. Like, that's awesome.

It's not the experience for me. I generally like my tiling window managers. And you mentioned the SSD taking up too much screen real estate. I just don't have bars, full stop, on most of my applications, so it's even less of a problem for me. I used to use IT. I used to use IT, by the way. Ah, yes, okay. Yeah. Maybe I had my own license

file, so, yeah. All of that stuff. So, what was it about... Like, Fedora, obviously, they have a great community around them as well. No, like, definitely disparaging them. But, like, what is it about the Ubuntu community that kept you involved with it? Like, obviously, Ubuntu is a project you liked, but why did you want to get involved in the rest of it?

I mean, first of all, it was just like bringing me back to my roots because I mean, the printer was the first distribution I used the first distribution I used primarily because before that I was just using art on the side. Right. And I mean, that is the winter communities cross-friendly, even when it had nearly died out in 2020, you know, back when, when it was just chuckling and most canonical employees weren't even looking at it at the time. So there were use cases and IoT use cases.

Back then too, I mean, the community was still alive though, even though the company itself would not be. So I just continued with that stuff. And people encouraged me to continue developing Ubuntu Unity and to continue maintaining it. So I just carried forward with those efforts. And eventually I found myself in other continue developing Ubuntu Unity and to continue maintaining it. So I just carried forward with those efforts and eventually I found myself in other spheres of Ubuntu, you know, Gamebuntu and that stuff. So yeah, Gamebuntu was just an app that was supposed to, you know, make it easier for you to get started with gaming on Ubuntu, especially after the

videos by Linus, you know, by linus checktips um about yeah i mean we all remember that you know what happened what happened with that pop was yeah um so i just started a channel um application for that and the electron that was supposed to easily into the experience into the gaming experience from the Puncture. So, yeah. That's about it, really. Yeah, that was an interesting series. Like, I felt like there was a lot of really good improvements that came out of it because I had brought up some of this previous point in the past,

but it wasn't until someone who was actually outside of this space, who was just a regular user, who actually could identify these problems and people would actually especially because of the voice that linus does have actually took them seriously like the way that pop west handled uh removing that package because i think it was like steam what was it it was like a package downgrade that uh like collapsed out into the rest of the system or something it was really weird and then the message they had there like it was clear if you understood how

to deal with package management already but if you were coming from a a windows background where you just write if the if a administrator prompt just comes up you just write your password in and who cares what it's saying just do it it knows what it's doing exactly yeah i mean um yeah app just wasn't built for this kind of stuff you know that was just dependency hell gone wrong because um you know simple down to it is also in inter and gonna just being used from the system you know that that just isn't to be expected but then i, I mean, that was the way the app came along. It just wasn't built to handle such use cases. And it should, you know, what the changes pop was made to app tasks.

I mean, they did a really good job handling all of the criticism and all of that stuff because it wasn't even the fault to begin with because that was just something that came along for the app because, you know, it didn't explicitly tell the user that this could break the system, that this will break the system. Because facing that as this could break your system, that is likely to get a user just to skip ahead and just to, you know, plonk down the password and continue with what they were doing. So just like Lana said. So, I mean, Pop was handling the situation really well, situation really well in my opinion yeah well that's a failure but especially with that problem because that

actually was known about a little bit before like if you go back to when it will happen i think there were forum posts maybe a couple of weeks before the series even came out so that was a thing they were aware of but it was, it was a very niche issue. There were maybe like three or four people that had brought it up. I don't remember it really popping off until Linus had mentioned it. But yeah, that whole series was, I know a lot of people criticized the way it was handled because they saw Linus just making mistakes. You know, a Linux user wouldn't make these mistakes. And I's that's a problem with the way a lot of people look at these issues where it's like yes as someone who is experienced using this system someone who has

been using it for two three five years however long you've been using it for a lot of these problems are things you can barely easily work out but for someone who doesn't have that experience it can be like a real major challenge exactly I mean like pop horse in the boom to you know just just the first few names that should have come to mind whenever someone asked me you know I want to get started with Linux which distribution to our use what do I do with it and i wear a man and which distribution do i choose you know i just i usually just pop up i just chime in and say um you know just try a bunch of just like pop wars if you're a gamer try pop wars they make stuff they make life really easy for you you know the property and video

channels are included by default even on the eyes if you choose to download that particular eye, so all of that stuff, you know. But yeah, I mean, stuff like this, yeah, I mean, even the pop-ups, it happens really well. Yeah, I mean, we just can't let it happen again, and we just can't let it happen again, with any distribution, you know. Yeah, I get where you're

coming from, yeah. So, yeah. I guess we can actually start talking about a bit of other stuff that you're actually doing so we did sort of bring up Unity before but why make obviously you like the whole Ubuntu thing

and that makes sense why you decided to actually make the remix and then make the actual I was going to say spin, flavor flavor is the Ubuntu terminology makes sense why you decided to go and actually make the remix and then make the actual um i was gonna say spin flavor uh flavor is the ubuntu terminology um why actually go and make a distro for it instead of just take unity and then just you know patch it update it and get it working nicely with uh you know make changes people want to see made with it, why actually go that extra step and make a distro for it as well? Because

first off, I wanted to make the experience easy for new users, you know, just to get started with it. Because right now, most distributions offer KTE, all of that stuff out of the box, KTE, Mate, all of that.

It's just going to, first of all be lagging behind the desktop environments in that regard, because first off, it's going to be hard for people, it's going to be hard for newbies to get started using it, because that is the experience I want. I want people to have a good first install experience, for example, and I would like to make

tweaks, I would like to make tweaks to Unity that would be, you know, there would be specific to bunch of unity however they will dissolve they do this alternate producer experience because unity is after all our primary target is ubuntu even though it should support it on fedora and it was supported on arch i have to update the port by the way since i mentioned archport i have to update that to use the latest unity version by the way, since I'm in the Archport. I have to update that to use the latest Unity version. But, yeah, I mean, I want it to be a good user experience for people that just want to try Unity 7

because that's what's going to get people hooked on to the Unity 7 experience. We don't want people to use a broken version of Unity. You know, if Unity just made a switch to the core power and then, you know, if Unity, if Unity just made it switch to the corporate, and then you know, people just started trying it and they just started complaining about how broken it was and how, how no one you know, how, why someone's even maintaining it because of how broken it is, you know, it doesn't even make sense to maintain it anymore. We're gonna have tons of people saying

that, if we just offer it as a package for other distributions to include, to maintain and include. So, you know, we decided to go the extra step of maintaining it and maintaining a distribution a flavor of a distribution for that purpose. So, yeah. I mean, that was the primary goal.

So, it basically provides an easy testing ground for someone who wants to get this is the experience that you want people to have with it. Precisely yeah so of the Gnome OS but actually usable for users because Gnome OS 2 is but didn't guarantee it you know for what I was using in case anything goes wrong in case there's a these alpha qualities of it. so I'm sure a lot of people are kind of interested in

what actually goes into well firstly making a distro like this and then getting to that position where it's an official flavor of Ubuntu so like what I guess we'll start with

what is it, what goes into actually making that initial remix, that initial distro based on Ubuntu? I mean, first off, we had to write our own ISO builder and a bunch of other scripts for that, because there was some documentation

on that, but it was woefully outdated. So I just did a bunch of builder tools, utilities for that purpose. And I just made those public on GitHub and GitLab so that it's easy for anyone new to get started. Like, you know, I mean, even the most new distributions. So if you talk about ubuntu cinnamon which is actually

older than the bunch unity however um because first of um they were using they were using a fork of a builder of the builder used by ubuntu budgie which itself was based on elementary os's builder and it was just heavily broken um on newer versions of ub 2 vanilla always managed to patch it out surprisingly for the release but yeah that was just an absolute mess and so you know yeah vanilla OS V2 I think they're actually using that builder somehow

yeah I mean that must be a quite yeah I mean that was an absolute mess they have a configuration where they know it works and they never touch it that's exactly yeah because live bill um the build the ability to use it right now the one that which cinnamon cinnamon to you was using and a bunch of new distributions in fact are using that one um yeah it just this built to support a bunch of options that we're going to 11.04 and i'm going to 10.10 supported so So, yeah, you know, I just released a bunch of scripts

and, you know, quite a few projects and I moved over to it. So Ubuntu Cinnamon, I started using that. And the first release of Vanilla OS used that script, the one I pushed to GitHub, you know, the one we were using for Ubuntu Unity. And, yeah, I mean, yeah, that was just one of the greatest challenges because there just weren't any decent

ISO building utilities out there, image building utilities, because Ubuntu has its own stuff. Ubuntu has a bunch of launchpad-specific CI for that purpose, but that just isn't usable for any distribution developer, you know, or any newbie that just wants to

build their own remix of a distribution. So, yeah, I mean, that was one of the greatest challenges that, and then on Ubuntu especially, this isn't a criticism of other distributions that let you develop spins. This is

something particular to Ubuntu. The packaging situation is just terrible. Because unlike Arch, where you have to just write PKG build files for that purpose, you know, even though

first off, the experience on Arch isn't the best either because packages keep getting upgraded and stuff peaks. You have to stay up to date for the packages. Right, the only compatibility baseline for Arch is the current packages. There's no like... Exactly. If you're not supporting the current packages, your package is broken.

Yeah, because hate Manger for what you will, at least they have a stable base. They do release stuff. They do have a stable set of packages that they release every couple of weeks. So even though it isn't the best for AUR packages, for packages that are actually in the repositories,

it's just a perfectly fine experience. They're stable after all. Yeah, I mean, on Ubuntu, however, it's far opposite. The issues are, you know, where it just makes it hard for you to package stuff because it is a good experience for the user. However, for developers and packages,

yeah, because it has a bunch of archaic file dependencies, you don't have a simple packaging format for it. Instead, the documentation is filled across various websites. And yeah, even though there are projects like MIGDEB, which is supposed to bring Arch-like packages to Ubuntu, you know, the NPR, that is the thing. So that allows you to write PKG builds. And it, in fact, allows you to use PKG builds from the AUR

and just use them on Ubuntu once you collect the dependencies, the package names in the dependencies. You know, once you do that stuff, it allows you to, you know, it allows you to use the packages from the AUR, you know, and that kind of stuff. And even though it might not be the most table experience, as long as you do, you know, it makes the packaging experience better for, you know,

for tablet person packages in general, because you don't have to deal with the JPEG packaging system. So yeah, that's another thing. So yeah, I mean, these two were the greatest challenges, especially the latter one, because packaging is just, yeah, it's just not worth it to, I think this is why snaps came along in Ubuntu, because snaps just just, yeah, it's just not worth it. I think this is why Snaps came along

in Ubuntu because Snaps just make it easy because his thing, even in the case of Flatpaks, developers, I have heard this from several developers, you know, they are of the opinion that even though Flatpaks even do Flatpaks, even the Flatpaks do beat

Snaps and a bunch of stuff, when it comes to the developer experience, Snaps are just doing better because you just have a simple snap tabs of yaml um it is basically yaml you just need to you just need to specify the name um the plugs and you know you just need to mention the files all of that stuff it is really simple it is a really simple system and even though it may be a bit of a wall cotton um like for the police show and the app store of course um the developer experience too is pretty similar it is really easy for you to just create a snap and put it on there put it on the snapshot for someone coming from the android world of development or the ios world of development you know it just makes it easy for you

anyway i think i think i have gone way off topic no it's fine you clearly are very very passionate about the issues you've had with packaging yeah i have heard many many developers say the same thing about debbie and packaging and say similar things about snap and flatpack as well the flat the flat hub guys I think are very aware that the developer experience hasn't been great and they are working on improving it but you know there's a lot of money that Canonical's put into snaps over the years and they did have a really big head start here and it's great that FlatHub exists and it's this open thing that like you know anybody can go and get involved it's great but Canonical did do

that developer experience first and obviously they did have the advantage of being able to go to these companies and directly reach out and help them with like making the snap packages and that's obviously not something that flat hub can do but even without doing that i've heard many devs say flat hub is great for the user but the developer experience just wasn't really there precisely yeah just needed for that yeah yeah no it makes sense like i i get what you're saying um yeah so do you have anything else you want to say about the the uh the deb packaging experience because it it you went from that into snaps and i don't know if there's more you wanted to say there or if you're worried about going way too off tangent or way too off topic

it's fine because you know I mean yeah that was just a hell of a lot of its own I don't think I'm going to go any further into deep end packaging I don't think so so once you had this remix

established how long did you have the remix for before it became an official flavor? So yeah, I mean it became a flavor in 2022, I think with the 22.10 release

we were actually going to apply with 20.10, however we were already receiving tons of support from Canonical. And the only thing missing that, because first off, most Canonical employees didn't endorse it as the first party

option. If you wanted Unity 7 on Ubuntu, it was almost as they officially endorsed it, even though it wasn't official. It was sort of an unofficial official, because we just didn't find a need to become

a flavor. We didn't want to go through all the hoops of uploading packages to the Ubuntu repos and finding people that had upload tags to the Ubuntu repositories. Because funny thing, even though I am an Ubuntu member, I still cannot upload packages to the Ubuntu repositories. I haven't applied yet.

Oh. So we have Dimitri Shoshnev. So he helps us get our packages into the Ubuntu depositories every cycle just a couple of weeks before the actual

release. So yeah, that stuff happens. And yeah, that's honestly about it really. So we became a flavor in 2022 because by that time, a lot of people were asking us, you know, why haven't you become a flavor yet? What are the plans? What are the plans?

We're just getting, that was just a bit of a nickel shambles because everyone wanted to know, everyone wanted to know when the Bunshiginji was going was going to become a flavor because at that point too much everyone uh yeah at that point was just expected because people would just assume it was a flavor already right so um yeah we just we just decided to go forward and i think we became a flavor flavor within a couple of days of applying so yeah so what was what were the extra requirements that needed to happen? You did touch on the getting packages on the Fedora repos. Ubuntu repos, sorry.

Getting packages on the Ubuntu repos. But, like, what else is required there? Because I assume there's some requirements regarding, like, the Ubuntu release cycle as well that you need to make sure you're lining up with but i i'm not sure on the full details myself there are in fact so um first off yeah um the packaging bit and the release cycle bit so um with ubuntu unity um first up about the cycle um yeah so we were following we were following all of the ubuntu um deadlines and in fact, here's the funny thing, we accidentally released Ubuntu 22.04.2 a few hours early,

and then later a major bug was discovered in the flavors, not in Ubuntu Unity, but in the flavors that literally has been delayed by two weeks. So we had the new version of ubuntu out before everybody else did just actually yeah just that um yeah i mean and then um a bunch of other stuff so we just um we were usually we were usually the first to release stuff um and back then so we would follow were usually we were usually the first to the least stuff

And I'm back then so we would follow we would follow the feature free stuff from the betas Everything we followed the winchy the winch is at least at you and get anything out there Usually before every other remix of flavor We were usually the person that you got but yeah That works out pretty well for us. As for packages, yes, we had to have someone on our team that had upload sites to the Ubuntu repositories. So Dimitri Shachnev, the one maintaining the Ubuntu Unity packages, right now, he uploads all the packages to the Ubuntu repositories,

all of Ubuntu Unity packages. So he also did sponsoring for many other flavors so for the bun too I think and for a bunch of cinnamon even and a bunch of photos remixes before they became flavors and he was also he's also one of the compass maintainers so that just made stuff so that yeah so so he knew about he I think he knows a lot about the unity code base as well. And so yeah, I mean, it was nice having him on the team, you know, so I just I just reached out to him on Telegram. They found him on Telegram and I just GMed him one day asking him if he would be interested

in uploading it would be interesting becoming a package uploader, because we had no one else on our team that could do that and we didn't know anyone at the time that would be willing to. So yeah, that worked out really well. So yeah, I think these two are some of the most major requirements. Aside from that, there's some that are slightly less important. So you're supposed to have a launchpad team, which is sort of like a GitHub organization, except you're supposed to have the Ubuntu code development team, which is also another team on launchpad.

It's another team on launchpad with all the people that have access to the Ubuntu packages, all parts of the Ubuntu repository, not just the community-maintained ones. So yeah, I mean, we just, we already had a bunch of, we already had the Ubuntu codefs team in our team. We already invited them and they just had to accept it when they became a flavor or invite.

Because our Launchpad has a concept of sub teams. So let's think of it as github sub organizations which do not exist but let's pretend it do so yeah yeah um so i think yeah i mean dc yeah aside from dc i can't i can't recall anything really i think it's just this stuff yeah nothing else comes to mind well i guess it did make it a lot easier for your project because you guys were already operating alongside the Ubuntu release schedule anyway so it's not like you had to adjust things or it was

you couldn't meet those deadlines I could imagine for some especially ones where they're not taken as seriously where the deadlines are not being met and you know all of this stuff so it's just not in line to become an official flavor and becoming one is going to take on a lot more effort for those projects but since you're already doing it anyway it was no additional effort it was just

keep doing what you're doing just do it in a more official capacity exactly yeah i mean in future i i mean i've been to so much for example, I was in fact considering releasing another flavor. I mean, it should be a vmix initially, but they're making it a flavor. So that was just supposed to be a flavor for Ubuntu that just made it easier for you to use child inventor manager. So if you just offer child inventor manager as part of the installation process, you know, IT Sway, Hypal and all of that stuff gwm dusk all of that as part of the installation process and yeah that is something i was working on i haven't had the time i you know i have my gcscs next year my gcscs and you know all of that stuff so yeah i mean once all of that yeah once all that happens i mean i might have a look

at it again you know because why not most people who run like a distro they're fine with one distro you would how many would you be actively because there's blend os and ubuntu unity those those aren't going anywhere there's is there another one that you're actively still working on that is still... Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Ubuntu first off, Ubuntu Web. I'm not actively working on the project with that name.

I'm just working on merging it with Blender OS right now. So I'm making it a variant of Blender OS because, first off, I don't think Ub winch uses suitable base for it because first of it just was we want to deliver we want to deliver a vanilla cano experience and Open to just just doesn't allow us to do that because when she makes changes to the packages themselves Um, instead of you know using packages over later on top of the gun-owned ones with their tweaks.

That just makes it harder for us with all of the customizations. For anyone unaware, what is Ubuntu Web? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can. I was saying, for anyone unaware, what is Ubuntu Web? Yeah.

Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. I thought you were just climbing up here. Oh, no. Okay. Sorry. That was my bad.

No, no problem. Yeah. My bad. Yeah. So Ubuntu Web was just supposed to be a privacy-friendly alternative to Chrome OS, all of the forks out there. And after the release, I mean, after Google took over CloudGity, it was basically the only option people had. Because Google took over it, and now it's just Chrome with Flix. because Google took over it and now it's just Chrome OS Flex.

So it was just trying to be something like CalixOS and EOS and Devos, JavaScript, all of that stuff to Chromium OS. So that was the goal. And it was meant to... So our goal was just to support Android apps, web apps, everything Chrome OS should, and for it to be as stable as possible, such that it would be, everything Chrome OS should. And for it to be as stable as possible such that it would be a suitable replacement to Chrome OS.

So yeah, we, first off, one of the reasons why I wanted to move it over to Blender was maintaining an Ubuntu remix and providing package updates to PPS that is another hassle using PPS for package updates because Ubuntu is built in

upgraded tools. those just remove custom package depositories aside from those of Ubuntu. So we couldn't choose our own package depositories if we wanted people to just run normal system upgrades. Because whenever you're developing a remix, for example, this is something I forgot

to mention, you have to maintain a PPA. You cannot use your own depository. I don't think you can I am not sure about this, but pretty much every year makes I had seen just use PPS for that purpose. And launch PPS are really hard to do with uploading packages. And even the site from the experience of building JPN packages, getting them on the server is an even bigger issue. Because there aren't any repositories like the AGU are,

first off. And, you know, yeah, so you don't, because first off, yeah, you don't build packages from source, like on Arch, of course, custom packages on JPN and Ubuntu, because it's supposed to be user-friendly. But then Launchpad, which is

supposed to allow you to create your own binary distributions of packages, it just gets tons of stuff wrong. Yeah, it's just a bit of a hassle. It is good, by the way. It is nice to see the work Ubuntu is still putting into making the experience better for Ubuntu users, Ubuntu packages, people that want to build on applications. However, I think everyone at Canonical realized

PPS were never going to be the future of distribution. And yeah, I don't think they put that much effort into PPS after that. Because, yeah, I mean, Launchpad, it's not like they could, because Launchpad is a huge code base and it is like a mountain to maintain. It's just impossible to maintain.

And so what I heard, one of the core Launchpad team members just left Canonical, Colin Watson, I think. So, yeah, I mean, that's, yeah. So that's where Snaps and Flatpaks exist in the first place. And I think most people at Canonical and and I want you to communicate with me on this so yeah they've definitely gone very hard down the snap route over the past couple of years with like core system components

going snap and just this clear focus on snap being the way they're going to handle this packaging how far are they going to go down that route whether it's going to be like fully take on the role of apt or what they're going to do

with that it's unclear what their like their ultimate goal is like way down the line but definitely sorry oh yeah that probably isn't going to happen by the way because snap still requires you to use apps for certain stuff.

So if you want to include any system dependencies inside your Snap, even though you can compile them and Snaps can be used, you can compile the application as part of the Snap. It is usually preferable if you just use app packages for libraries within a Snap. So that probably never is going to happen. But yeah, so I think it's going to continue the way it is right now. So it's going to be Ubuntu and Ubuntu Core Desktop.

So the Ubuntu Core Desktop is going to be for people that like stuff like Fidu or Silverblue. Whereas Ubuntu itself is just going to, Ubuntu itself is just for power users. I think that's the way it's going to be in future. But yeah, I mean, apps is going to be here, you know. it's going to be in the future. But, yeah, I mean, AppChest is going to be here, you know.

It's going to be here for a long time to come. I don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. But, yeah, I mean, the snaps, yeah, I mean, I think you will

like them, because, yeah, we just don't know what they're trying to do with snaps. Personally, I think, you know, snaps have some disadvantages,

but then they have caught up lately. They have caught up with Flatpaks and a lot of stuff. For example, competition, because they used to use I'm not sure. I think they used to use XZ competition, which is super slow.

I'm not sure. I think they used to use that, or I'm not sure. That sounds right, yeah. They think they used to use that, or I'm not sure. They used to switch to a different type of computation that just makes stuff much faster. So, you know, Firefox no longer takes 15 seconds to launch. It takes like a couple of seconds, sometimes even faster than the app package

on previous versions of Ubuntu. So they have fixed a lot of that stuff. It's a different matter that they don't enable those improvements for new packages by default that are created on the Snapster to save space. From what I've heard, they haven't made this public, but I have heard this from various canonical employees. So this is one thing.

And yeah, I think it's gotten a lot better because there's some stuff Flatpak simply cannot do. There are people that have gone out of their way to get CLIs working inside Flatpak. However, I don't think that's ever going to happen. For the average end user that forces on Nextcloud as a Flatpak,

that is never going to happen. Yeah. I don't actually know the technical issues with Flatpaks, like CLI Flatpaks. From everything I hear, I don't actually know the technical issues with flat packs, uh, like CLI flat packs. Yeah.

From everything I hear, it's, um, that's something I really should actually look into or bring on someone who's like very deep in the flat pack ecosystem. We can like really explain it well. Um, my understanding there is just don't just do anything else besides CLI flatbacks.

Yeah, there's just a bunch of hoops you have to go to. Also, the thing about Snap is, I'll just mention a couple of points here. Because Ubuntu, for example, with Snaps, they're just, so there's just a bunch of symlinks. So they have a custom directory within the pod. So where they're just symlinks. They're just sending certain binaries to SnapG itself.

And then SnapG checks the name of the binary that's being called, which, you know, argument number zero, as you may be familiar with, in the shell script. That tells you how the binary, how the shell script, or how the executable is being executed. So they just use that. And yeah, I mean, they use it to make it appear as though you're just running a binary as is for nature one. And if there are

multiple, so you know, this is, say, there's a binary, but which has the same name as the name of the snap itself. And if so you have, you have a binary within a snap, and the binary has just names from the snaps, and that would just that would just be named as a binary within a snap and the binary has a different name from the snap, then that would just be named as a binary.snapName. But for Flatpak, first off, I think you can only have one binary that you can easily run without dropping into a shell within the Flatpak. So you always have to run Flatpak, run the name of the container, and then any arguments you want, you pass on to it.

And this is only if you're running the main binary. So first off of that it's just a bad user experience you can't use aliases for it however i don't think the flatpak team has shown any interest in you know making it a bit more user-friendly i know nothing about this by the way about the flatpak side of things so take what i'm saying with a grain of salt yeah i think i'm gonna stop myself there because um yeah i wasn't going to stop myself there because I didn't want to get myself into a mess. Before you mention the compression using snaps, for anyone who cares, they swapped from XZ to LZO compression. Yeah, I got it.

Oh, yeah. Oh, actually. It didn't really matter. You didn't say a compression. you were right about where they started but I don't think you mentioned where they went to yeah I did not mention that no because I was confused between ZSGG and LCO

ah right right right yes because I thought I thought the switch was ZSGG actually but then I saw a bunch of other oh this is back in 2020 maybe they did another switch to another one yeah I think ZSTD actually. Maybe this is an old article. Oh, this is back in 2020. Maybe they did another switch to another one. Yeah, I think they switched from LZO to ZSTD after that.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm going to search this up myself on my second one. Yeah. Okay, no. They switched to LZO. However, a bunch of people wanted them to switch to ZSTD. Okay, that is what I was getting from.

Because I remember reading some Phonics articles on them switching to LCO, but then I remember them, you know, trying ZSTD. But no, it was just a bunch of people that wanted them to switch over to ZSTD. So yeah, just that really. So earlier you mentioned wanting to make a tiling focused Ubuntu remix or Ubuntu flavor. I'm honestly surprised that that didn't already exist because Fedora for a long time now has had their i3 spin. I'm really surprised that something of that nature hadn't existed.

There is in fact regularit. However, they're Regolith Linux. So their aim is to provide a super user-friendly IT setup on Ubuntu. I actually met with the developer at the Ubuntu Summit and the work they're doing is great. With this though, my focus is not just to target IT but to just to support most vendor managers out there, you know, if people want to sway or something of that sort and our aim isn't to make it as user-friendly as possible in this case. Although, yeah, I would like to have it be a decent setup out of the box

such that people won't have to go into their.files and make changes, though they probably will. You know, with Regolith, they have their own custom configuration system, so I think they use just standard X configuration for that. I'm not sure, but they have their own layers on top of IT.

So this would be suited for someone that wants something a bit more vanilla. You know? So like in the case of Ubuntu, I think yeah, I mean, the original goal of vanilla was, in fact, I think this was one of the original goals. So to have a plain GNOME, to have a plain GNOME desktop, aside from all of the other

goals, I mean, this was a side goal of this, to have a plain GNOME desktop that didn't get in the user's way, that did not have any customizations that Ubuntu shipped out of the box. So this would be sort of like that, to let Placid support other venture managers. Our primary target is an IT, and the aim is not for it to be user-friendly. The aim is for it to support multiple venture managers, and for it to be

a decent experience out of the box. Not just a decent experience, you know, something that works. Right, you'll need to do a bit of configuration, because you know, you want to make sure that you have like a working launcher and things like that you can't just especially like dwm or bspwm you cannot throw people in a blank config there that's not usable we do not want to have yeah that and we don't want to have um a blank you know we don't want to have a black um just shop yeah a black

background with the default IT panels and all of that stuff. I mean, I'll totally include something like Polybar and Zofie and all of that stuff out of the box. I'm just trying to, you know, I just don't want to make it too user-friendly such that it becomes hard for advanced users to get their way around the system

and to remove customizations and stuff. You don't want to ship like a 10,000 line config. Exactly. Exactly, yeah. We don't want to ship like a 10 000 line config exactly exactly yeah you don't want that to happen we do not want that to happen so you know that's the goal with this thing you know whenever i get time to work on it you know i i do you know i'll probably work on this in a few months right now i have my final exam so yeah haven't got enough time for it but yeah i mean i would like to see that happen you know i would like to work on that in future yeah that does sound really cool and i know people have been talking about i don't think anyone's mentioned this on the ubuntu side yet but there's some

talks about a fedora cosmic and i i would imagine someone would probably end up trying out a ubuntu uh ubuntu cosmic remix as, which would be neat. Cosmic's looking pretty cool. Do you have any thoughts on Cosmic in its current state? No, I'm loving what they're doing, because I feel it would be the perfect replacement for Gunner once it comes out. As long as they do not ship the jetted CSGs. I'm not sure how they do it right now.

I would like them to ship an option where you can just disable CSGs and that kind of stuff, which it's only well, after all, they do, they do provide options for tiling out of the box. So they probably will. I'm not sure.

Hopefully they will. I can't speak on that, but I know that they are going to make it. So the bars are configurable so you can make them less giant yeah that is exactly what I'm looking for there because you know once if we have something like that it would be the perfect

in my opinion it would be the perfect replacement for Gnome you know I would like to see that happen so you know I mean right now on this system you know Crystal Linux out of the box ships Gnome I'm using Gnome here. So, yeah. Wait, what did you say you were using?

Crystal Linux. Crystal Linux. Yeah, I just installed it on the system today. It's a brand new Arch Linux-based distro. I've never heard of this one. It's actually perfect when you want to have a system that is not immutable. If you just want to have a plain

Arch-based GNOME system, or in fact, any desktop environment, but they provide the best environment, the best experience in GNOME. And, yeah, I mean, the team members are from basically every single project out there. So, for example, Axel also is a member of that project.

They're also responsible for project shards. And they're also in the Winner Lawyers team. And so, yeah, there's a lot of who will laugh at other projects there. And, you know, it just provides a really good experience out of the box, you know. I feel it's, you know, I haven't heard Endeavor, by the way. The website was just a bit off-putting for me, you know. Maybe a bit of a line of statement about Debian but yeah and Devo was the website just an appeal to me and that just gave me my first impression of it and yeah I just decided I have to try

it but yeah I don't have any plans to in the near future although I will Although I will. I'll probably give it a try on a VM or something on my postbox eventually. But yeah. The website just doesn't appeal to me that much and that just gave me my first impressions of it. So yeah. So I guess you probably

talk about the other thing you're involved in with BlenderOS. I don't think we've even really talked about BlenderOS that much, have we? No, I think not. Yeah. So for anyone who's completely unaware, just explain what BlenderOS is. Sure. So with BlenderOS, our goal is to deliver a stable enough art system that doesn't leak all the time, that is immutable and declarative

and atomic. So it allows you to define all of the packages you want on your system and the AUR packages, although we strongly recommend against them on your base system. So it allows you to define your own custom configuration with any desktop environment and it allows you to define your own custom configuration with any desktop environment. And it allows you to have a basic immutable setup, an immutable declarative setup. And you can run applications from any distribution if you want to within the container. But yeah, our primary goal is to offer seamless declarative art setup, you know.

So you can just use any desktop environment you want, all of that stuff. And, you know, so you can just use any gist of environment you want, all of that stuff. And, you know, something, by the way, I was watching the stream, by the way, the gist of tube, the stream you were on, the gist of tube, and yeah, I was watching that one over there, and I mean, I remember being in the chat then, you know, there was a stream on Diane's channel on YouTube, I think, so, you know, there was a stream on Brian's channel on YouTube, I think. So, you know, they're discussing some stuff about immutable gestures, you know. One of our goals with Lenovo is to make it super customizable.

So the aim is not to have it be user-friendly. We want to have people come to it, you know. This is supposed to be people's introduction to Arch and other distributions. However, we try to provide power users with a seriously configurable system a decently configurable system such as you know did you not feel you know the experience has been hampered by it so you know this would be suitable for someone like district you know that wants to have their own custom setups or even someone here you know you know um if you want to have your own custom setup with any winter manager you want or any job trials all of that stuff and you do not

want to be hampered by the distribution itself because right now from what i can tell um most immutable distributions they only give you uh they just give you a really limited um you know a really limited amount of control over your desktop. Because if we take something like Fedora, Fedora Server Pure, they allow you to put on overlays, I guess. Systemd has something for that, layers, I guess. So they just augment overlayFS and they make it easy for new users.

Plus they have RPMOSG that allows you to install new packages, but it doesn't allow you to do anything outside of that, from what I can tell. And for those, we use our own immutable tree implementation. So here we just pull root for systems. In the previous release of Blenoise, Blenoise v3, we used to use, actually still a stable release, however, we advise users to use v4, which is the beta. However, it is actually most stable on v3. So release, however, we advise users to use v4, which is the beta, however, it is actually most stable on v2, so we just advise people to use that, because it is fully declarative, a lot more declarative than v2 was. And so with Lenovo's v2, we used to pull ISOs using z-sync as part of the update process,

and as scary as this may sound um you know you don't want to download a 4gb iso on every single update for a tiny call update um um we use this thing for that so um that's so um actually for ceasing by pro bono hate him for what you will about the statements on valen and all of that all of that stuff I mean he has done some good stuff for the record I don't hate Probono I just think the statements are wrong and kind of funny

I'll stand by that I don't hate him it's just arguments on the internet about technology maybe he doesn't like me that's possible but for the record i don't i don't personally have an issue with him yeah no yeah on uh on a more serious note

though yeah i mean we use uh we use z-sync 2 um which uh which is developed by um turbo notes that was that was a fork of zsync. That was essentially utilities supposed to reduce the size of downloads. So whenever you download something, so let's say you're downloading large ISOs every single day. So that just reduces, so that just downloads the deltas

between the two ISOs, just the differences between the two ISOs. So that's just a new package in a new ISO. It's probably just, you know, the amount of, you know, the amount of social analytics to. It's probably just the amount of social analytics to download the new ISO and the amount of time that's probably just going to be a couple of seconds because it just needs to

download about 10 to 20 MBs for that. Assuming it's just a small package, it's just going to have to download about 10 to 20 MBs for that. It isn't going to have to download the whole new ISO. And then silent ISO. So first off, we use Zsync for that. We used to use Zsync for that. And then, so if we just, if we use ISOs and then inside the ISO, most ISOs, at least most distributions,

ship a complex useful assistant within the ISOs. That is a squashFS. So the ship squashFSs inside the ISOs, So the chips cross-faces inside the ISOs, which are just compressed. You can think of them as compressed root file systems of your final install system that Calamity, Ubiquiti, most installers use to unpack your final system. So we just use that and we replace the current system using that. So we install any packages you've declared in your system configuration on top of the new system, which is built from an archive of the ArchSynapse repos whenever the ISO was built. So that doesn't result in partial upgrades. So we just use the Arch Linux archives for that. And we would just use that.

And we would perform TV merges, TV ETC merges, which you can just think of as merges where you don't just abandon your changes in ETC every time you try to update your system, while allowing certain changes from the new system to get carried on to your system. So, you know, if there was some major breaking change in the new system that had to be made to ETC that you couldn't just rely on the user to make.

So you know, because what Arch does, they just use a lenient way, they just use pack new files for that. Here, we have something, we just use TV merges for this purpose and that's a bit better than what Arch does I think. I'm not that familiar with what Arch does right now but from what I know they just create pack new files for that purpose. And yeah, I mean that aside, yeah so I mean those are those two are main goals. Having a declarative system andclinative, making, having a declinative system and something immutable, atomic,

after you do watch your system to break apart. And, oh, and by the way, I'm often asked about why we decided to go with art, you know? I was going to ask you that at some point. Yeah, exactly. Because here's the thing. We ship our own custom images of art, you know? So we vet images before those are rolled out.

You can always stay on the bleeding edge, you know, and use an Arch Linux root file system. You can just build your own root file system locally instead of using an ISO on an update. Using Packstab, so if you just Packstab a root file system and then install any packages and all of that stuff and then atomically replace your current file system with a new one on the next boot um but you know for most users we just advise you into the current system where you just have where we just use prebuilt root file systems that are within isos which we do test in vet and so you know that helps you avoid any major system breakages because we get to test everything and we get to see if there's anything major, anything broken before rolling out updates.

So that just removes a lot of the instabilities of Arch Linux, you know, from package upgrades. Which, by the way, this is probably going to be contrary to most user experiences, but Arch is just a lot more stable for me compared to other distributions, especially when compared to Ubuntu or major package upgrades. It's just more stable for me. I think the only issues that I've personally had are like key-related issues.

You know, someone loses a key and they're like, oh, we've got to push out like a mirror, a key list upgrade, and you're going to upgrade the key list before you upgrade the rest of it. I don't think I've ever actually had a package... I don't think I've ever had a package

breakage that wasn't... people weren't very, very quickly aware of. Exactly, exactly. I mean, even in the club situation, I mean, people were loaded with that, and while you do not want that happening on a production, really, just a fusion, I mean, the first time we that and while you do not want that happening on a production, really, distribution I mean, the first time we

worked on that with Lenoise, but that aside, even on regular Arch, I mean, as long as you, although this isn't going to be for everyone, first off, this is really there, and I mean, Ubuntu has this kind of stuff happen all the time as well. However, in fact, it's a lot more frequent than Arch, such kind of breakages, because, you know,

there have been a bunch of, especially cloud-related breakages there. Not on the desktop, but on the cloud. It's just a bit less unstable because there have been a bunch of security bugs that just came out of packaging issues and stuff. So, yeah, I mean, Arch is perfect for me. Arch is perfect for me as a power user. And, I mean, I'm just trying to get to the piece that for someone

that wants a stable Arch Linux system that you don't even want to have to deal with the grab issues, something simple like that, or for someone that is new to Arch, that is the main goal, to make it easier for those kind of people. Number one, if you're a newbie, you probably shouldn't be messing around with the host packages unless you want to install drivers, you can just use Flatpak. Or if something is not

available in the Flatpak, you can just use containers for that purpose. Because first off, containers in BlendOS are heavily integrated with the host system. Unlike certain other implementations, you know, we just, so first off, any applications that you install even within the container, without any wrappers around such container tools, like even without a wrapper

on Podman, if you install something, if you just drop into a Podman shell within a container, although we don't need you to do that, there's just a Blender settings UI within Blender, which allows you to just drop into a podman shell within a container. Although we don't need you to do that. There's just a Blender settings UI within Blender that allows you to just pawn into a shell. However, even if you would just drop into a podman shell and install an application, that would automatically

appear on your host system. It would appear on your shell as well. It doesn't clutter as you would expect it to because first off, any application that you install, any binaries you install within the container, those are suffixed with the name of the container. So, you know, it's the URL to install. Or even if you were just to create an Arch container, you would expect to have Pacman

available on your host system. So, you know, if you want it to be that way, so first off, it just appears on the host system as Pacman.arch. So if you named your container arch, or if you named your container hello, you can just access it from a shell using the name pacman.hello or whatever you named your container. And if you want to use it as the implementation of Pacman,

you can just redirect Pacman to pacman.hello, to simple sym links and this is just this ui is exposed to them to the blender settings ui so we have this kind of stuff that just tries to just tries to ease the user's experience you know especially when they're just getting started with a distribution like arch linux you know so yeah that's a goal with that's a goal with plan os so yeah 10 minutes ago maybe it was i don't know i don't know how long you went on that for um you talked about simplifying the customizability of an immutable system so a lot of people are like weirded out with the way that

immutable systems work because The way that you customize them is very very different and a lot of them traditionally have just not had the documentation there To really do that customization like if we take silver blue for example If you want to go and change from gnome to another desktop There is documentation there, but it's very developer-focused. It's, okay, you're going to make your own distro based off

of this. It's not, okay, you're a user and you want to use i3, for example. Get rid of Gnome, put i3 there instead. And the place that you do that isn't... You don't install the package as part of the runtime, you do it at build time. So it's this really different way of interacting.

So the point I'm getting at here is I'm really happy to see these different ways of handling immutable systems, doing it in a declarative way, doing it in like all of these and like doing these like containerized solutions as well, where you can run a container separate from your main system that's so integrated into it. All of these solutions, I don't know, like ultimately what is the best way to do it, but I'm happy that people are exploring different ways to handle these systems. Yeah. I mean, we, we actually have a person on our team for that purpose that exclusively focuses on the documentation. So Ash is just a member of our team. And aside from infrastructure, you know,

his primary focus is documentation. So prior to the release, prior to the official stable release of v4, our aim is to document every single function of it. And even right now, it is, you now, if you are a ZSnippet and if you're a semi-advanced user of Linux, if you have been using Linux for more than six months, you'll probably be able to find your way around it

because it is really self-explanatory. So if you just, by the way, if you just look up the BlenOS V4 blog post, by the way, if you might find out. BlenOS V4 Alpha, is that what it's called or is there another one yeah um yeah the plan was v4 alpha okay yeah so so if you just open if you just pull up the blog post for that yeah um uh this is on hash net by the way here so um uh so first off you can just include any packages you want to

um you can include any services if you want to enable them this is something we have included in the new documentation um right now we've just i have to do this by the way um that i just mentioned packages um but if you just go down to the third step that's just as simple as that so just select the tag you want um so um you can select gunner as well that is mentioned in the blog post um you know you can choose to use gunner you can use um plasma xfce matter and we also have budgie and a bunch of other desktop environments but we haven't mentioned them because we haven't tested them right we have tested them did work but not beyond that because like the deep in the usership of version of bleno sweet tea that had deep in out of the box except that was heavily

broken because deep in was broken on archlilox and that was yeah that was never with no one ever tested the deep in no one ever tested the deep in spin of lise so yeah I mean yeah until I think ZGNets yeah ZGNet wrote an article on that ZGNet wrote an article on Lenoise ZGNet are Czech Republic one of them but it was Jack Wallen I know that he also bought so he wrote an article on it and he unfortunately I think he reviewed Lenoise VT Deepin I think he reviewed Blenno's VT Deepin, I think. Yeah. Yeah, because he's a fan of Deepin. In our documentation, we have specifically mentioned

so we have Docs right now itself as well. So if you just pull up Docs with Blenno as a core, we have documentation there. I think we have mentioned, I think we have Deepin. Yeah, we have. We have mentioned this. we have mentioned, I think we have, Deepin. Yeah, we have. We have mentioned this.

We have mentioned this as a danger sign. Danger, do not use Deepin. Deepin on Arch is currently quite broken. We recommend against using it. So this is something we've mentioned over the download link. I think they just skipped over it and decided to turn it off before we see Deepin. And yeah, I think you can imagine how relevant. Yeah.

Do you know why it's broken on Arch? Any idea? Yeah. Yeah, we do. So from what I recall, you have to create, you just have to create a file under the user directory to get it working. And this is something once you do the E,

also just, yeah, I mean, this is just a bit hacky. I think we could, you know, we could do that if we wanted to, but for now we've just marked it as experimental. We can if we want to. It just doesn't feel right, you know, just including an atom file under the user directory. And people can do that if they want to, they can just add this to the system configuration, they can add a file, they can edit a file and they can add a line to the file to create that to create an empty file with that name, if they want to, you know, if they're hardcore fans of GPen. But we just we just didn't feel it was right because, aside as well, I mean,

there are a bunch of bollocks for Gpin on Arch. It just isn't a first-party experience. You do not want to use Gpin on Arch.

Plus, I mean, with Gnome and stuff, previously Gpin's appeal used to be, it was a good-looking desktop environment. However, with

Plasma, you know, I mean, Nikolov had worked on the floating panel as well. I mean, all of those efforts, that just makes Plasma the clear option, you know, if you want something like that.

This is personally speaking, I know there are going to be people that still love GP and I'm not going to give it up at any moment. But yeah, I mean, in my opinion, Plasma just supersedes that. But even, you know, even opinions aside, you can just make a single change to your file if you want to have it. And since people haven't asked for it,

people haven't asked for it, many people, so we haven't included this kind of deep in that, you know, that we've tried to iron out every single one of these issues because no one has just asked for that and we do not have the manpower

to maintain an entire deep in there. In fact, all of entire deep in the infant all of the fixes is required all the hacks it requires and stuff so yeah yeah you're definitely if there's anyone that's in a position to to not tell people to just keep using the thing they have nostalgia for i think i think that's that's you like oh you you made an entire entire distro based around your nostalgia. You keep working on your nostalgia. If people like the nostalgia of Diefen, they're gonna keep using Diefen. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, probably, yeah, because I think I'm just, you know, as other people usually view Unity, you know, people, sometimes, I mean, yeah, some people just don't see the appeal of it. Many people don't. But I think I'm just viewing

Deepin to the same lens here, so I'm probably gonna stop. Yeah. I'm having a look at a picture right now. I can see why people like Deepin, but I also see what Plasma 6 looks like now, and the work that's being done there. And I get it, like, there was a time where Plasma 6 looks like now and the work that's being done there and I get it like

there was a time where Plasma did not look good and that wasn't very long ago it was actually fairly recent Plasma 2 and Plasma 4 yeah exactly yeah I mean even just Plasma out of the box in early

5 wasn't in the best of states exactly it was just a mix between you know flat design, material design and plasma out of the box in early 5 wasn't in the best of states. Exactly. It was just a mix between, you know, flat design and material design and the arcade designs of Plasma 4, you know, it was just oxygen and bees, it was just a hybrid of the two and it just didn't make

sense. Yeah. But yeah, that, although, I mean, plasma has gotten a lot better in my opinion because first off, whenever I need to game, you know, whenever I want to spin up anything like CSGO or Minecraft or any of that stuff, Plasma is just my go-to because it is heavily, any game,

most games are heavily broken on, even Ritualing, from my experience. I'm not using Ritualing GPUs. Plasma has gotten a lot better, especially ever since 5.25 or 5.27, one of those two. Especially since one of those two releases, Plasma has just gotten so much better than Gnome in terms of gaming. And in general, if we talk about compatibility with NVIDIA GPUs on Valen, it has gotten much better.

It was just a bit of an old reversal. Because now Gnome also, as we all know, Gnome hates implementing new proposals. They hate implementing protocols. We all know, Gnome hates implementing new proposals. They hate implementing protocols. And we all know what happened with... What was that again? Learshield. Yeah. So we know what happened with Learshield and the SSG protocols. Dyrr and Leasing is another fun one for VR.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. All of that stuff, I mean... Yeah, that and working HDR. Because Plasma is at least inching towards it yeah HDR is a really interesting one because that it's coming along and a big part of it coming along is because of the work

that Valve's doing because they have obviously got it there for they've got the KD on the Steam Deck as well and there is stuff is coming along like Gnome has a clear list of things

they need to do. It's just not there yet. And I hope it gets there. Like, because there are a lot of people out there that really do like Gnome. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I mean, the thing with Gnome is, I think the appeal of Gnome is, you know, it delivers, it delivers a consistent experience because um whether it's a monopoly or not um most applications are just built for the gnome

everyone uses gdk for starting you know getting the cells from gdk getting accent colors all of that's just from gdk sort of teams you know firefox chromium every single major app out there every single major app out there. And then, yeah, I mean, I think Torium had something for QG. I'm not sure. I think they might have had something, but then we know what happened with Torium and we're going to drill upon that.

Yeah, so there's that. And then, you know, I mean, GNOME is just that, it's just a premier desktop environment. Plus, another thing going forward is it's really easy for distribution to customize. That is in fact the reason we're using it for BlenderOS. That's the primary desktop environment for BlenderOS.

Not Plasma, because we want to ship our own custom config of GNOME. You know, we want to have title bar buttons first, of course. We don't want to limit it to the close button. We want to have title bar buttons first, of course. We do not want to limit it to the close button. We want to have a maximize and a minimize. And the alt tab defaults are just insane. But that aside, GNOME is just really easy for us to customize. We can use anything we want to.

It just requires basic G settings. You just need simple G settings overrides onto your user shared GLib. There's a directory for that on your host system. User shared glib 2.0 slash schemas. So you just plonk your overrides onto that. That's just perfect for

distribution containers. With Plasma, from what I know, you have to put files in scale. And that usually isn't advisable because you can't even ship default customization updates because once the user is created on the system, you don't grab any more files

from the etc scale directory. Because after that, it's just hard to ship. For those that don't know, etc scale is just a directory where you plonk dot files that you want on or any files that you want on a new user. So yeah, that is a way you ship configuration for plasmap from what i know so you've got to make the changes yourselves and then you've got to you've got to copy your dot files after making changes from the ui

to a package that's as far as on the etc scale and then there's a ship there's an update to a user and then once a user is created you cannot make any changes to the default config you just cannot make any changes to the default config as part of an update so ganome has just been better for for desktop environments and even for system integrators you know they want to provide they want to provide custom tweaks for their hardware you know so ganome is just perfect for that yeah. Which is kind of funny to say because of the whole don't theme my apps thing that was a thing, you know. Bingo.

Yeah, so from your perspective as a instrument handler, how do you feel about that? How do you really deal with that sort of problem that they have? And personally, I understand why they have a problem, especially when it comes to users reporting issues when it's entirely the fault of just a bad theme like there's no issue it's just your theme is broken so yeah what what's what's your perspective here exactly so um i do feel for the team maintainers because it's just an impossible task to maintain teams to gnome

um and honestly i don't think it's on the java post not on the team maintainers because it's just an impossible task to maintain teams to gnome and honestly i don't think it's on the java post not on the team maintainers here um and i mean distributions distributions are going to continue customizing this even though i mean i try to avoid customizing stuff with ben os we use default teams on every single um not every single one of our desktop environments um I've wanted to use Papyrus. I've wanted to use Papyrus and Arc because that... Not even Arc, no. I've wanted to use Papyrus, which is just an icon theme because

back when I was working on the first release of Planoverse back then, gun or map icons were just trash. Not trash. People were just complaining about the design because it was stuck in the 80s. Got no map icons, we're just trash, you know. Not trash, their design, you know, people were just complaining about their design because for some reason they were stuck in the 80s. You know, they have gotten much better now.

They are much better, so we no longer do that. But distributions are going to continue. Distributions are going to continue shipping their own icon sets, their own icon teams, you know. That's never going to stop. And it's going to be the same with GDK teams. I mean, for example, Ubuntu puts a lot of effort into Yaro. It would be wrong to just cut it all off the effort there.

And it's just, you know, distributions, first of all, distributions don't really care about the applications that they do not ship out of the box. They aren't that concerned about them or anything that comes outside the repos. They aren't concerned concerned about them or anything that comes outside the repos um then i'm concerned about those apps and then you know i mean honestly i think it all falls the blame falls on the initial designers of you know gdk3 which is literally gdk4 tubing this way because there was never a proper

teaming system for tdk it's just it just all of it just piles down there, you know. Because like with KDE, you can use your own team engine if you want to, and the KDE developers support that. You can just use Quantum if you want to. No one is going to complain about that. Everyone loves Quantum. It is the perfect option, especially if you want to use something like Calamity

or the GDK-based distribution. It's perfect if you want to blend it in with your system. In general, queue teaming is amazing, you know, for developers especially. Whereas Gnome, they don't just backtrack with calling your teams even.

So they just call them style sheets. People are just going to continue calling them teams. But I mean, I'm going to have to start with Gnome developers here, in fact. You know, as far as I hate to say this, these are style sheets. I'm never going to call them style sheets. I'm going to continue calling them themes. But they are style sheets. They are in CSS. And our CSS classes are updated. And CSS IGs are updated. GUI IGs are updated. Classes are updated. All of that stuff. Yeah, stuff is going to break.

Classes raised from application to application because an application that uses GDK, they too might have their own level of styling. So even if they do not use the default

GDK styling and they do not use... I mean, most applications are now switching over to Libid Fighter, but let us pretend that was never the case. For regular GDK4 applications that do not use LibidVita, but let us pretend that was never the case. For regular GDK4 applications

that do not use LibidVita, yeah, I mean, they're, you know, GDK4 applications, there just has to be a better teaming engine, in my opinion. And this could have been possible with LibidVita,

because every single application using LibAdviter is using a common set of elements and no one tweaks them. Everyone tries not to have teaming. However, I think we're going to miss out on a significant opportunity here because now everyone is having to fork LibAdviter.

Ubuntu has its own fork of LibAdviter that uses Yadu instead of Adviter. And people are just going to continue doing that. And then, you know, there are a bunch of other toolkits. So while this is good for distributions and also for desktop environments like Pantheon that elementary OS uses, so it is good for them because they can write their own toolkits like libadvita and make their applications use those.

So that is ZCoupled from GDK now. However, it would have been nice if Ghanoum just added the option to use custom styling there in LibreVita because they could have added this as an option if they wanted to. They just did not because they wanted to ship a seamless experience. And, you know, Ghanoum

developers, if anyone is watching this, you're going to continue saying, oh yeah, because customizability, they're discussing that we have to use it, we want to ship this, you're going to continue saying, oh yeah, because customizability, they're discussing that we have to use it, we want to ship this, we want to ship that, this is going to be a consistent, but then I mean, KG is doing this perfectly well, why can't you do that? Why can't you just, especially

with Liberty, you know, you can just allow people to put basic action colors, which luckily now is possible, but this wasn't a year ago, that are changing the size of elements and that kind of stuff, you know luckily now is possible, but this wasn't a year ago, that are changing the size of elements and that kind of stuff. That is possible with LibidVita. You can just add

custom settings to LibidVita for that purpose. You can add custom settings, G settings for that. This doesn't even have to be team. People just want basic control of the sizing. They want to change the font, which I guess is possible, but then if you want to change the sizing, you want to change the font, which I guess is possible, but then if you want to change the sizing, you want to reduce the size of that CSG,

all of that stuff, because we know the CSG is never going away in Canome. However, you want to be able to resize that, and you want to be able to resize other elements, which is what teams allow you to do. They allow you to resize elements, they allow you to set fonts, they allow you to use custom UI elements

in certain cases that weren't provided by icon teams. You know, we needed an API for that in LibidVita. This would have been the perfect time for that when, you know, they were making applications transition over from GDK, from plain GDK or LibHandy to LibidVita. It's just sad to see that never happen. And, you know, this is still possible.

I don't think anyone's gonna consider it, though. I don't think GnomeJerks are gonna consider it. So, yeah. Yeah, I don't think that would be something that would come out of the Gnome project. I could see a I could see a third party taking that approach, like someone who

wants to use Libertvitae as, like, a base and then use those name components and then add in additional things, like add in the ability to do all that sort of customization whether it would get wide adoption, I know you're about to say something

whether that would get wide adoption or not is another question, but I could see someone do that and then build a desktop around that Yeah, I mean, like in the case of mate um you know um one of the developers of ubuntu machi last seven who is who quit in 2021 i think unfortunately um but uh yeah they were maintaining a fork of gdk t that's removed the csg um the virtual the virtual elements to how they were on gdk2 and you know people just love that and

that still exists however you know for gdk4 i don't think i don't think it works for gdk4 although someone did fork it for gdk4 um that and then heck even someone was even maintaining a fork of gdk2 for that purpose and there was a bunch of there was a bunch of apis you know they tried to make it abi complete compatible with gdk3. But yeah, I mean, I mean, it's just a bit of a mess really, you know, all of that stuff. You don't want to have to write a fork just to have basic functionality like this. You do not want that to happen. Yeah, that's just bad UX in my opinion. So. I guess QT exists yeah

um that and then I mean there's the new what what was that named again yeah Ice

I guess that is for last yeah Ice which Cosmic uses and which I think Zitoxilus was also trying or the that may be a bit irrelevant but you know I mean

a bunch of other projects are trying that even though they may be from the same developers Jeremy know i mean a bunch of other projects are trying that even though they may be from the same developers and jamie solar um cough cough and um yeah i guess people are trying it though people are trying um other alternative toolkits i think it's good to see i think ice is really cool but like dewey rust is still very very new new. Yeah, because I just lost specific. That is the reason I haven't even tried it. I'm not a lost developer. I use stuff like Go at times, you know.

But, you know, I just prefer sticking to Godot. Okay, I'm going to sound really old for saying this, even though I'm a bachang. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, I'm going to sound really old for saying this. I am. I'm just, you you know to the co a C developer. C or when it comes to I hear C++. Yeah I just I just prefer C because I just prefer the style of coding you know that and then you know I mean it's just anything. At least you move past your android roots and

you don't do everything in Java. Oh, yeah. Java is just... I don't know what's up with Java right now. I haven't used anything... Okay, yeah, I mean... I haven't used anything in Java in so long, you know? I mean... No, actually, you know what?

I wrote a couple of Minecraft server plugins. Right, okay. And those were in Java. So, yeah, I mean... Well mean well i've just i've forgotten most of it you know most of the libraries and stuff i used and yeah i mean that aside um for small stuff you know i just use shell scripts all lately i've just started using python for that because you know it's just a perfect choice because for smaller shell scripts sure it's perfect but then when it comes to large stuff, Python is your best bet.

So, you know, I mean, recently I wrote a builder. I wrote a new Ubuntu ISO builder that took in a system configuration file just to build an ISO. So something similar to what I showed you in Plano Sv4. So it just takes a YAML file just like that with a list of packages and services and builds an Ubuntu-based ISO using

that. And that script that builds actualisers, that has, what, it has over 100 or 120 sub-processors calls within 200 lines of Python. So, you know, there's just to call commands, and there's just to call shell script commands, you know commands from within Python. While that isn't the way you would want to go, it's the only choice we have. Because first off, it would be unmaintainable if it actually has a shell script. If it totally exceeds 500 or 600 lines. I used to maintain other things. Una was the name of a package manager. I used to maintain other things. So Oona was the name of a package manager. I used to maintain, and I want to look at it again. I do look at it occasionally.

However, that was a de facto package manager for the NPR. So it was sort of like Paru. Right now, the NPR has its own thing. However, it was sort of like Ye and Paru for Ubuntu that used the NPR. And that was it in the shell script and if you were just to open the GitHub repo for that and you were just to scroll to the code

yeah I found it yeah under the ESKOS repo because that is I don't know why I named it that it's just an organization name I can't map it for no reason but yeah I mean what in the... I scrolled to the bottom.

It's like, what? This is your argument parsing for, like, whether it's update, remove, or... That... That's... I hate that so much. You should... Oh, yeah. This is is just i like python python's nice

exactly exactly i yeah i do not use shell scripts for anything anymore it is fun to live on the jesus side of things i mean and there are going to be top and then social scripts i mean um which choice to um encourage people to write scripts using Frisk instead of Python. I mean, what, UnityX, the original release of one of the pre-alphas we were working on for UnityX that wrapped it on Compus and stuff

and all of that stuff. It interacted with GDK3 to shell scripts. The entire thing was written as a shell script. And I don't think that was one of my best decisions, you know. So yeah, I mean, it built upon Unity 7 and its huge shell scripts.

My thought is if you need more than if you need more than a hundred lines and if you start thinking about functions, you probably shouldn't be using shell scripts anymore. Yeah, definitely. It's great like for like little things like little system automation stuff great it's very nice to do

that like i have a i have a script where so i don't use a um a display manager so when i log in i have a script uh that just automatically starts at my desktop and like for things like that it's perfectly fine yeah but exactly yeah for anything yeah anything bigger than that it's just like yeah no i'm gonna not do that anymore you do not want to have a freaking thousand liner i know i i have so i i have a script where I've separated my bookmarks out from my browser I don't look at

that script I wrote it like four years ago it works I don't touch it because I don't even know how that script works anymore uh huh oh yeah that makes sense yeah I mean with Una I'm just having a hard and

harder time and that isn't even a large shell script i mean just look at some of the larger projects you know just your box just your box is the perfect example because it uses sh it just uses pure shell script it doesn't even use bash i because the aim is to the aim is to target the goal is to target every single linux distribution out there and so they refuse to use bash for this purpose um and yeah it has over a thousand lines in many of its shell scripts because it uses about eight or nine shell scripts so there's just a this is the main helper that calls the other shell scripts, each of which have about a thousand or so lines. I see now, yes. Yeah.

I mean, you need that there because you can't use something like Python for this. But then at this point, I'd just like to see something compiled to use. Even something like Go would work here because you can produce static binaries that would work on any distribution. But you do not want to use a shell script for this purpose. You do not. In my opinion.

I do wonder how much performance is just left on the table by doing it in a shell script like this. Yeah I mean Python isn't the most performant as well because here's the funny thing from what I know I remember I remember this myself, by the way, Parting is actually slower for shortest clips. However, as stuff increases, you know, yeah, I mean the execution time in Bash has just exponentially increases.

So that's just like an exponential function at that point in Bash. But yeah. Well, you know, do it in something like Go. I'm sure you can get like, obviously a lot of the performance overhead with something like this is not in the script itself. It's with the docker stuff. It's with Podman. Like, that's where the main performance loss is going to be. But I do feel like there might be some extra performance you can get out of this. Also maintainability and actually

getting people to help on the project. Here's the funny thing by the way. So initially I was watching an immutability implementation for BlenderOS that used Python. Not even Chelsea said no. It was using Python and I needed to actually use the files

recursively for particular file attributes. you know. This was for knowledge at least of Plano OS. And, you know, so first off, I wrote the piece of code in Python. So it was just actually cursively on every single one of the files on the user. And that was the cursive.

It would take over two or three minutes, I think. Two or three minutes. Whereas in Go, first of all, Go allows for easy parallelism. Even in Python, I'm not sure. I think I did use certain types of multiprocessing, I think, in Python, and it was still this slow. On Go, I wrote it, and while this may be a bit of an understatement and an overstatement, however you see it,

I wrote it in Go. For me, just personally speaking, it took me about 10 seconds to do the same thing. So yeah. Yeah. That is a bit of a pinpoint of every single shell script I've written. Yeah.

At least that's not what you want. Well, you know, someone can write shell scripts I guess. I don't know. Look, maybe we can get back to writing Pearl scripts instead. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of people out there that really love Pearl still, but I don't understand them.

Nor do I. Nor do I. Nor do I. Why should you use Per to the C, you know? But I mean, okay, I'm the one to comment on that. I am the one to comment on that. I am the one endorsing the use of Unity 7. That's fair. That's fair.

Yeah. So, one other thing I did want to sort of talk about is unrelated to the work you do, I sort of wanted to ask you about what is the FOSS community like in India? In Australia, there's basically

nothing here. We have a couple of little conferences. There's one in Sydney, there's one in Melbourne. most of the major things that happen in the foss space are in you know they're in europe they're in america so what's it like for you and i know you've gotten yourself you've gone to a lot of talks in various places so i just wanted to know what it was like for you yeah i mean in india um afforded by the large population here and by the way

according to your stat counter i was personally surprised by this by the way but according to your stat counter um 15 percent of internet users in india use linux wow so um i was surprised by this because i i am yet to meet a single person that I just know outside of the false communities to use Linux. So I highly doubt that. I've been to see in Boston, Europe in this regard. But yeah, I mean, because everyone here uses, you know, if you talk about phones, first off, everyone uses an iPhone in urban communities. Or, you know, if you go to the little parts of India, everyone uses an Android.

But then when it comes, and even when it comes to computers i mean here's one thing about india you know no matter how rich one is you know everyone loves to pilot windows for some reason here even if you can't afford everyone just pilots windows um because first off people start buying people's long long ago in india people start buying people's and so people just go to the local computer shop for this purpose. And they ask to build computers for them, no matter how

big their margins may be. Because you can find a shop down the street that just sells computers, that just builds computers and sells them for you that have what? That have a $500

margin. You can find stuff like that in India and people don't even realise because they know absolutely nothing about PC parts and yeah they're just buying this because they do not want to spend on pre-builds for some reason. Whatever logic, whatever however this makes sense.

But yeah afforded by the large population though, we do have large force communities here because here's the thing, pretty much everyone, you know, everyone that is an engineer, for example, you know, here in universities, people exclusively use Ubuntu and there are gangs, in fact, that will force you to switch over to Arch or distributions like that at universities, so you'll find tons of gangs that are going to beat you up if you don't switch over to Arch. I don't know if you're being serious right now.

I'm not, but yeah, I mean, there's just a bit of... Yeah, there's just a feeling, because I've talked to a bunch of people at universities and stuff, and you know, most people I know, they just use Arch. Arch or Ubuntu or Kali because Kali has managed to find its way to the masters in India because everyone wants

to become everyone wants to become a quote-unquote hacker right right you'll find a bunch of Mario rules that make YouTube videos on how to install Kali and Ox on Hindi in Hindi by the way yeah Linux in Hindi, by the way. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's just absolutely shit. Yeah. But yeah, the first community, yeah.

We have a bunch of corporates here in India that actually do support the first community because most of the CXO suites, most of the CXO suites of those companies, those are hardcore Linux users. And they enjoy the use of Linux. And they organize massive conferences in India. So, like, I gave a talk at one last year that was

organized by, yeah, that was organized by a huge company here in India, I think. The name is Siddhota, and they had a conference named the force, India force, I think, yeah, it was named India forceha And they had a conference named the force India force I think It was named India force And they had over 1700 attendees Wow

And this was not even in the capital This was in Bangalore Which is where I live right now We moved here recently Although this is Basically the People call it the Silicon Valley of India. It has, it's that city, you know,

it's just an industrial city, you know, that has everyone that is interested in this kind of stuff because most tech companies just come here and settle here. But yeah, that's what we have here, really. Yeah. Oh. that's what we have here really yeah I mean we have a large force community here though because yeah there are huge communities in basically every city in India

and you know there are tons of local universities and they too help with they do help with all of this you know they help to promote they help to promote and occasionally occasionally you will have the church sermon come by universities in India and tell you why

Linux should be called Godot slash Linux so you know that's that as well it's always fun to ask what like other places are like because like Australia is a massive country but there's no one there is no one here there's the

there's 25 million people here there is less people than the just California California has almost double the population of my entire country and then India is the whole opposite end of the spectrum where what is the number it's

like 1.4 1.4 billion as a 2021 yeah I know I mean I think it's I think it's about 1.5 but now yeah yeah 1.5 well I don't know what we're gonna do with this to the population but yeah whatever um we have 1.5 billion people here. I mean, if you consider 15% of the internet-using population, which is by the way like 80%. I want to check this, by the way. How many people in India use the internet? Because from what I remember, it has one of the largest populations, largest internet-using populations, ahead of China in fact.

Internet-using population, the head of China in fact, internet-using population in India. Yeah, 759 million users from Money Control, okay. Okay, I don't know how reputable that is, but wow. Okay, yeah, the World Bank has something on that too. Let me just check this out. Yeah, over 50% of the population population and this was last year and this is just increasing exponentially so um yeah this is just um so you know when you consider that and then you take 15 of that you know let's not take 15 percent of face value because that country is not going to be the most yeah yes that account is not let's not take that yeah I mean we remember that but you know even if we one third that

even if we third that to the 5% that is a huge number from a big country like India you know it has a large population and even 5 into I guess considering the fact that a lot of people are getting onto the internet for the first time

and you know there is this big wealth disparity I guess considering the fact that a lot of people are getting onto the internet for the first time and you know there is this big wealth disparity in India so you're going to have the people on the lower end of this likely going for the free, like in this case the free solution

yeah I mean unless you know they just acquire Windows through other means which is also very common in a lot of places as well. Exactly, yeah. I can tell you, I know quite a few people that just use KMS for Windows, you know, KMS Activation. Okay, I should totally not, you know, yeah, so that's just prevalent. That's just prevalent. I mean, piracy is just an issue in India, you know, because everyone I know can afford it. Everyone I know can afford it because, you know, they are, most people I know, they'd probably be, you know,

they'd just be your average people, you know, in any developed country. They're just conscious, the average person in a developed country, most of the people I know, you know. And, you know, you'll just find them uh using what i said again um t launcher um yeah this is something you might want to look up it is just um so it was it is a russian launcher of minecraft that is cracked that is known to modify your just modify your registry and stuff so some guy in russia developed t launcher and then

sold it to a company or did the company yeah i think the company just took over it for some reason illegal takeover or something and you know they just had an advert to which they started modifying people's registry and sending home stuff and you know what's that happened and people and you know there's no single person I know, I'm the only person I know that uses Minecraft, you know, that uses the actual Minecraft launcher for that purpose. And in general, that doesn't pilot

this kind of stuff. Every single person I know, every single person I know just pilots stuff like this in India, so yeah. It's just hard to find people that actually buy those versions of stuff. So that there's a footfall for Linux adoption here. But people are just way too engrossed in piloting stuff and looking for alternatives.

Actually, the real introduction of people to Linux in India would be universities because there people are lobbied into using Linux distributions. You want to be a part of the elite club at universities that use Linux. That's how it is in India and I think that is what led to

the Linux boom here. That does make sense. Just a quick pause because my cameras have just frozen in OBS and I just cut back to this. Back to recording.

Yeah, you were saying about you were setting up OBS like four hours beforehand. Yeah, four hours. Yeah, so something just miraculously manages to break OBS just before everything starts. Power control has issues with switching audio inputs and for some reason OBS decides to use the long input as usual and that doesn't let me use it on other browsers.

I close Firefox and switch to Chromium for this, thank you. And everything just falls apart um because obs decided to decide to switch the input back to back to this microphone you know to this condenser mic and yeah that just yeah i used to do the whole virtual camera thing through obs but it it was too finicky to deal with. I probably will mess around with it more when we start moving into this, like, Pipewire video stuff. You know

what? I have a tick up my sleeve. Wait, no, that just disappeared me. Yeah, okay, never mind. That just moved. That's changing. Okay. Okayy okay okay i cannot follow yeah this is this is what i have going here in case you can see it oh yeah okay hello hello internet you've broken the illusion oh yeah i have oh yeah yeahakey. This just messes everything up though. OBS Clermakey just messes everything up here for some reason. Yeah. This is just. And also, Logitech webcams on Linux. They just mess everything up for me. everything out for me. Okay. I've tried. So here's the thing. I do have a bunch of I do configure it to V4L2 CTL. So I'm using a C922 here. Ah, yes. And yeah, the classic. I said

not going for C920. People said lighting was much better on that. Oh perfect yeah yeah okay whatever it is like a mess of cables in there I can't get the anyway yes you bought see bought C922 and people would say C922. Yeah, it is just, for me personally, because first off, it just messes up all the lighting. Is that a C920 or C922 by the way? Because from what I heard, there were massive disparities

between quality in the two. So which one is it? Would you happen to have any idea about that? I don't recall Um Yeah, I'm not entirely sure, because when I I used the C920 a long time ago, I haven't really used that

probably in a couple years at this point Okay, yeah, because I'm using a C922 here, so the only reason I got it was because it supported 720p60 and I so do regret it, because first of all of the quality is terrible. It refuses to capture any colors properly as a

shit, you know. Lighting is just weird so I'm just having to I'm just having to offset for that with chroma key here in OBS because it just gets all the coloring wrong. Sometimes I appear orange in this for some reason. Sometimes I appear like a ghost.

Sometimes I have purple hair. Sometimes I have jet black hair. It just messes everything up. So I'm just offsetting for that. I'm just offsetting for that in chroma key and that just messes everything up. So while that would be cool, now surprisingly it isn't too far

off without chroma key. It isn't too far off, you know, without chroma key. It isn't too far off, it messes up my hair and stuff, but that aside, it is fine, you know. But, you know, other times it just messes everything up for some reason. It's just, I have to disable autofocus, I have to disable lighting balance, I have to disable um um what was it that what was that again um darkness creation what was that blackness connection whatever that was i forgot the name of it yeah all of that stuff um it's just yeah white balance white balance i have it up here and uh okay i don't think i can get this window on the screen but yeah um i just ran this uh prior to prior to joining the call so yeah yeah when i when i was doing the webcam stuff i turned everything off as well just just manually set it have just have

lights and don't let the lights ever change and hopefully it just keeps doing the settings like it should be oh yeah i actually have a i have a color control light here let me just turn the camera on in fact i have this thingy here to my curtain ah yeah yeah so that's just a basin here that's just a basin i'm using for this purpose the only one i had lying around that is color control. So just control it to my phone here. This thingy, something I think it's called. But yeah, it's just, yes, the CRM is just really fiddly with colors and stuff. And it just, it just messes everything up for some reason. So yeah, I just have to deal with that all the time and then yeah, that's stuff. And that is how

it configured this way here as it shows up yeah the chroma key is kind of ruining everything there but it's fine yeah i know it's fine yeah i mean this thing here yeah yeah okay this color this camera saloons everything yeah so this is just a this is just a color control thing. It's like, you know, I can just change it. Ah, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's the generic app that all of the random lights use. Exactly. Everyone has just forked it,

except this is the only company that sells lights of the sun in India. Right. I wanted to buy one when I was at the forest term. One, you know, that was my full lips or something, you know, something half decent, but yeah, I mean, I'm just stuck with this one now. Because they were in shipping time. But I also have this color dial here that isn't even visible on the camera,

I guess, because, I don't know, what is he 92? Okay, I don't think the color dial is visible on camera here. I don't know if I'm seeing change. I don't know if it dial is visible on camera here. I don't know if I'm seeing change. I don't know if it's the camera just doing weird things or if it's actually changing. I don't think so, no.

No. I just have, I just have, you know, I just have a bit of a, I just pulled to the curtains here a bit. Oh, yeah. Is it visible? Yeah. Okay, so I just have this thingy here.

I just have a control thingy yeah I see classic it's just a classic I remember I wanted to control this to Linux and remember this being the

I mean this is a generic thing of course it's just a generic app I wanted to use an IFTT execution for this, I think. It didn't work for some reason. Whatever it was, I have to look at that again. But for now, I'm just checking with my phone to control it. It's just a mess. I'll just leave it at that.

Yeah, it sounds like a bit of a mess. Yeah. I'm sure with enough effort you could work it out, but, you know, you've got a lot of... Yeah. You've got, like, tests coming up. You've got three different... You've got two distros you're running

and one other one you want to do. I think you've got enough things to worry about besides controlling your lights on Linux. Yeah. To my credit, I get choked at school. I see that is a joke. You know, I don't know why I'm surprised.

I don't know why I should be surprised with that. I don't know. Do you have a social life? Or is it just like all Linux? I do. I mean, I do. I do. I do have a social life.

I would like to say that. I'm just a classic introvert in high school. I'll just leave it at that. Because first off, no one I know uses Linux, uses anything that is remotely related to any of the stuff I do so you know

it just ends up every single conversation ends up on the level of here by the way what was the thing you used

again I was looking your name up on Google and I saw this thing Ubuntu Unity so I was

trying to so so what is it so now can it on Unity in full screen

on the laptop yeah well what is it? So now Canada on Unity in full screen on the laptop? Yeah. Well, one thing I don't know how I didn't bring up. A Unity game. Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes. Not Unity itself. A game that uses Unity. Because somehow,

I know one person at my school that knows what Unity is, luckily, but other than that everyone just everyone just thinks Unity is a platform, everyone just knows it's a platform for stuff because we have tons of gamers at school you know so I don't know how the Unity

I don't know how that name Clash ever happened and no like there was no legal issues with that. Exactly I think in fact I think in fact you think canonical trademark unity before the UFC game engine came up I think that was the case I think the chipmunk should be for the engine issue with that I'm so confused oh yeah yeah because, yeah, never mind, never mind, it's the other way around.

I thought that was the case, no, it's the other way around. So then, why did Unity, okay, I guess, I guess I'm not gonna mention that, I'm not gonna instill this topic here in case anyone from the actual Unity studios has had to look at this. Surely,

surely they're aware of it. Surely they had to have been. There's gotta be, like, one Ubuntu user on to Unity. Surely they're aware of it. Surely they had to have been. Surely, yeah. There's gotta be like one Ubuntu user on the Unity team. Or maybe canonical just put in the big box, you know. Very possible. They just put in the big box and they don't have to care about it anymore. Who cares anyway, you know.

Let's just start approaching it as a Unity no one. Everyone just thinks it's a game engine so it isn't causing any PR damage to us. We don't care. No PR damage to us we don't care no PR control needed, we don't need any of that it's just fine I'm surprised though with all no go on go on, I was going to change stuff

but yeah I mean with all of the stuff Unity, all the songs Unity has pulled off lately with their licensing and stuff, yeah I would have expected them to do something about it because lately they've just been becoming the oracle of the game engine world. You know, like Epic, you know, they're just following that path. Somewhere between Epic and EA in my opinion.

But yeah, I would have expected them to have sued Cargo a lot, you know, long before, you know, long before we were having this conversation. So, yeah. Anyway, yeah, go ahead. So I guess the last thing I want to touch on is what has it been like to just get all of this attention from the work you've been doing in this space, from the work you've been doing on Unity, the work you have with BlenderOS, just people making a big deal about, look, this is this 14 year old that's running these distros.

Like, what has it been like to just get that attention? People have been supportive. I was sad I said it. Everyone has been supportive. You know, back when I was 11 or 12, I remember, you know, job posts on stuff that I would release, them just being about, you know, how this was just absolute shit, you know top posts on stuff that i would release them just being about you know

how this was just absolutely you know but you know why is this going yeah um just stuff like that and then you know people just pointing our stuff um within the projects and just that kind of stuff and then just and then just uh you know paraphrasing stuff and just uh same stuff like you know yeah this was to be expected from a 12 year old whereas in reality i mean that was just a that was just a that was just a box standard thing anyone could do i gave her the comic from however first off it was open source and while we have seen we have seen stuff go terribly wrong with thorium you have to wear the project before because i actually you know what yeah i you i actually worked with the thorium developer i wanted to collaborate with them they had they dm'd me on telegram and they Torium developer I wanted to collaborate with them They DMed me on Telegram

And they were wondering if I wanted to ship it on Ubuntu Web And Something like that Something of that sort Because I got DMs from them on Telegram And coincidentally I also DMed them on Twitter Around the same time

And I didn't realise I was the same guy. But yeah, I mean, after everything went downhill with that, you can't just trust any random you can't just trust any random the chain of trust has to begin somewhere. You don't want to because, yeah, I mean, like with Tolium,

although it does appear they are trying to rectify that. I don't know if they will be able to because that was just something that was never witnessed in the Linux community, in any community before, in the browser community especially. But yeah, I mean, you can't just trust anyone in the open source community. You have to wait for the doing. I'm surprised no one noticed the images in the repos. I'm surprised no one noticed them in the GitHub repos. Because those were literally in his website's GitHub repo.

You just had to go one jigsaw down and all of them were just... So, yeah. I'm surprised no one noticed that. and all of them were just... So, yeah. I'm surprised no one noticed that. But, yeah, I mean, that kind of stuff happens in this world. You have to live with that. And it is a good idea if you bet something

before you actually start promoting it. This reminds me, actually, you know, one thing, this reminds me of when Chris Chachestrek actually did a review of Bleniverse because it was the exact opposite of what happened with Trillium.

I think because, you know, in that case, he was streaming about Blenowess, and then he just looked at the website and he was like, oh, yeah, this is just absolutely bogus. This is just shit. Your system is going to break apart in one second. I don't want anyone using this. Yeah, that just happened. Public hotline after that. But, yeah, that just happened. Public oxide after that.

But yeah, there's just been a bunch of stuff. So you've got to look at the... You've just got to review the project. You've got to know what you're talking about. You shouldn't just go straight to the extremes because I think Chris has improved on that and he is working on that now. But you know, back then,

with what happened with Torium, because there he was just oh enthusiastic about it you know instead of reviewing it and this kind of stuff happens with everyone but yeah i mean that would have been nice you know if he um if he just you know went to the github repost because i know he is a bit tech savvy i know that i know he just has he does have the capacity to do that um so it would be nice if you know creators reviewed that i mean yeah that would be nice and thenors reviewed that, that would be nice. Or in the case of Blennois, the opposite happened there, because over there he just started ranting about how Blennois was just... So that was just another thing of its own. So yeah, that is one thing that could be worked on.

But the Linux community has been really nice to the Creators and community has been really nice to me so far. Outside of Reddit, once again, I might mention. Reddit has its own closing console. I remember there being, so after the Wukong Asia, which was another event, so that was an event held in South Korea about a bunch of good communities. That was one of the first Ubuntu events held in really long, one of the first Ubuntu community events and had a bunch of people there. So I just flew over there.

I was one of the organizing members there. And, yeah, yeah, so over there, I mean, with this kind of stuff.

So, yeah, someone, sorry, I forgot what I was going to say there. Yeah, so someone decided to, actually,

no, yeah, someone decided to make a meme out of my presentation and and the main uh young and then young ben one of one of the main organizers organized just cross-promoted that on every time people think of and you know that just that just blew up so and luckily um you know it was a bit positive there um that's i think that is when people just you know stop commenting on you know the projects that develop just because of the age you know when i think that's when people stop criticizing this stuff you know

because previously people would just be afraid of which is reasonable people will be afraid of using ubuntu web and stuff because that was that was an 11-year-old. I don't think anyone wants to use a distribution maintained by a 10-11-year-old. For example, Ubuntu Unity was released when I was about 10 and then Ubuntu Web when I was 11. You don't want

to use that kind of software because someone could just switch the interest at that point. So I guess they were coming from. However, it is a good idea, you know, if you just weigh the options, if you just see if that matches your needs and then if you just, you know, tie it on the side, you know. Especially if you do

just a hop, you know, and you tie different stuff because there's nothing stopping you from, because if you keep switching distributions like I do, there's nothing stopping you from just tying a new distribution made by a 10-year-old. So, yeah, that is something I feel that... Because people were just saying that

everywhere on Reddit, anywhere where someone posted about my TEDs, about the stuff I developed and all of that. And then even on Hacker News. Actually, no, Hacker News was a lot more friendly than this ago. Hacker News was actually friendlier than this. Okay. Yeah, because some articles,

so first off, Liam Suven, you may know him from the register. So he, by the way, he used to be, he was in fact a mortgage on the Bunchy Unity team as well, on the side, by the way. And he wrote a bunch of articles about me. And, you know, those made their way to Hacker News.

And all of that stuff happened. And, yeah, I was expecting to... Yeah, I was expecting to be pulled into the cloud by... Yeah, I'm not going to complete a sentence. I wasn't expecting the best of outcomes there. Let's just put it that way. And, yeah, I mean, you know complete a sentence. I wasn't expecting the best of outcomes there. Let's just put it that way. And yeah, I mean, people were surprisingly positive then.

Eventually will for me. In fact, I had a bunch of people reach out after that. And that is how I discovered a bunch of conferences in India because I didn't even know about the existence of a forced community here in India before that. So, you know, a bunch of people reached out to me. You know, they were like, by the way, you should check this out. We have a growing community. We have over 20,000, 30,000 people in the city alone, and you should totally join. And

I was like, you know what, why not? You know, what's stopping me from? And, you know, I just gave a talk after that. And I had some, I started giving talks at local Indian conferences after that as well. And I was just engaging communities and Indian communities because before that, you know, because the Linux community is just heavily European-centric, you know. It's just heavily Europe-centric. So before that, it was just, it was the Forsterm and that kind of stuff. I would just give talks to the Forsterm at the Ubuntu Summit

and a bunch of other conferences that were, you know, Europe-centric in general. It's only recently that stuff has sprung up here because, by the way, even if we talk about stat counter, it's not the most reliable once again. I'm going to add a disclaimer here.

But, you know, just in the last couple of years, according to stat counter, the last two to three years, the market share of Linux has boomed from below 0.5% or below 1% in India back in

2019-2020 to over 15%. According to StatCounter, this might just be the methodology changing, but this was a gradual shift. This was sort of like this was sort of like a parabola so you know this was this wasn't too oh this could be taken somewhat seriously probably not 15 percent once again it's probably about it was probably at about

eight percent nine percent in india or maybe in five percent but still i mean that's a big population once again so yeah that is big that is a big conch so yeah the sad and yeah i think what's happened with your projects is i i get why people were concerned initially because you know it's it does it does make sense right like uh it's just this kid's doing this thing and like yeah but like you've been doing it again and again and get like you you now have a track record of running these projects well and getting this and like continuing this for a while and actually making this a good system I think that's that's the thing that's changed there

that now people see a system that you're working on it's like oh well okay I see I can see the other work they've done and clearly they've know what they're doing here yeah I mean because seriously I mean because a bunch of unity for example at the beginning of its release I don't think I don't think that many people check it seriously you know because you know initially there were a bunch of, I mean, Forbes covered it, and a few other newspapers did, but

you know, none of those, nothing that was, you know, squarely non-accentic, because I think Jason Durant, for example, he wasn't touched about this, but I think that was mainly because of the age factor there. But I don't think,

I don't think there was anyone at the time that actually took it seriously in that sense you know um aside from Forbes articles you know and once Forbes once was uh yeah ticket public zine and that stuff because yeah I mean they would cover it but then anything that you know anything like the Linux gaming one you know there's that linux gaming and then yeah most most uh most newspapers most outlets just do not take it seriously because after all it's just a 10 year old project you know it could just die off at any moment so you know yeah anyway well we should uh probably be wrapping this up because it sounds like we could just keep going and going but it's it's it's getting late here I kind of want to go to bed at some point. Yeah, sure And we're going over the two hour mark anyway, so yeah

We if you do something you say No, I mean it's about 11 here so not too bad but yeah what time is it for you actually it's going on 4am it's like 10 minutes to 4am holy shit yeah I mean it's 10 minutes to 11 here so

yeah I mean that's a huge difference I mean well I remember with Ubuntu membership board meeting for example I had a meeting at what T30am I had to show up there and yeah that was supposed to decide my future in the Ubuntu community you know they were supposed to decide my future there and no one was available in the other time slots because first off everyone was from the Americas right and you know so they couldn't they couldn't have it something that was comfortable for me so yeah that just ended up being at 3.30 a.m.

And by the way, I would like to apologize for scheduling it this late for you. Because, yeah, because I wanted to set up all of this. And I thought you were from the UK because you sound British, you know. You have the certificate of license. And, you know, I thought you were from the UK. And I thought you were from the UK, because you sound English, you know. You have the certificate of license, and I thought you were from the UK. I know you're from Australia, and yeah, there's just a tiny bit of misadventure

that happened there. It's all good. It's all good. Well, we've done it now, so it's fine. Maybe next time we'll do a different time. I don't know. I'm sure there's still plenty plenty you have to say about whatever and i'm i'm sure there's by the next time i talk to you there's gonna be something else you're working on as well yeah yeah well you're not as

busy with your uh with your tests yeah no I mean I have my GCSEs next year but you know once all of that is up should be much better after that because now yeah I'm just struggling with tons of subjects here because first off this is a new school board because I recently switched I recently switched school boards

this might not be relevant here but I just switched school boards and it's just it's just a boards, and it's just a bit of pressure on me right now because I'm just getting accustomed to this, and I have my GCSEs next year, so that is to be seen. But, yeah, I mean, all of this aside, yeah, I mean, yeah, probably. Yeah. Probably. Probably.

I guess... Hopefully. Let me know where they can find whatever projects you're involved in right now. Like, where can they go? I don't know. I was just... I don't know, honestly. I haven't listed them down

anywhere they just catch it they just catch it on github and gitlab okay that's github and gitlab that's the easiest place but here's the thing I have how many repositories do I have

because I used to build a bunch of little opting system kernels when I was about have? Because I used to build a bunch of fatality little opting system kernels when I was about 8 or 9. I used to build OS kernels and see it assembly and yeah, my entire GitHub is littered with those. Yeah, the currency is luckily not that high

here. There are 17 repositories but yeah, and it's also a little bit fox and stuff with repositories it's just my niche you work on that you know I often I often start you know I I often find myself in a blogging in my spare time you know and then this articles just never make it anywhere because I don't get enough time because I get down to the last paragraph and then, yeah, I just get busy with stuff. And yeah, that just doesn't work out for me, you know? I'm trying to focus

on open source projects mainly right now. I did plan to set up some blogs and stuff, you know, you know, for my point of view and this kind of stuff but I just haven't had the time as usual so that kind of stuff but yeah if you want to get involved in BlenderWest the website is BlenderWest.co co yeah BlenderWest.co right there

I remember did co because it was the it was on the TLG available that was because everyone took.com,.org, most of them were registered right after the release of Blender OS. The same thing happened with Ubuntu Unity. Someone registered.com, Ubuntu Unity.com

I think right after that. Ubuntu Unity.com or.io, I'm not sure, one of those two registered then right after the release of Ubuntu Unity. Yeah, that's what I'm just trying to do. Yeah, just went to.co. Yeah, no matter what anyone says about.co not being suitable for an organized,

not being suitable for a one-man project or this kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, I do plan to put it all together, by the way, on the website, by the way, in the future. So I bought the system, the company, totally not inspired by the browser, the company, that domain, because I was like, you know what,

someone's going to pick this domain up anyway. So I'll just pick it up for now. And I'll just use that in future. So, you know, that kind of stuff. And yeah, I mean, that's about it. I will totally move on to the decision companies. I bought that in July, which was supposed to be my blog, but that is also down there now. That's what I owe because I replaced the LibTox mocks just yesterday. I replaced the LibTox mocks server, and I have to set everything up on that. And, yeah, I just keep meddling with my servers and stuff all the time. So, you know, here's the thing.

Even if I have my exams coming up, you know, you just find myself, you just find me, you know, just carrying around monitors because my laptop, of course, doesn't have KVM. So, you know, I'll just casually be carrying around 27-inch and 32-inch monitors everywhere. I'm plugging them in because, you know, one of the laptops I use, so I also use a MacBook Pro as my server. I dropped it 2019 MacBook Pro 9, I think.

I dropped it. The screen got wrecked. I'm not spending $900 on another display. So, yeah, I just made it a server. And, yeah. And so I got to carry it on a monitor whenever I need to debug stuff on it. And, yeah. And so I got a Kalyan on the monitor and I wanted to Gbox stuff on it. So, yeah.

It works out decently well for me. Well, it sounds like you have a lot going on and you're just doing a lot of things. Yeah, kind of, yeah. Yeah, well. Definitely. We should probably wrap this up then. Unless there's anything else you want

to mention um no probably not no okay yeah nothing comes to mind right now i can't think of anything right now okay if there's anything yeah i'm supposed to be able to set up the slate over there no i mean i'm already i'm already getting sleepy here because i have a weird sleep schedule i have really weird one so sometimes I wake up at 3am sometimes I wake up at 12pm so you know that phase a lot 3am to 12pm it depends on whether it's the week or not

so you know it's just messed up for me but it's totally worse for you because you're in Australia you are the max content creation you gotta get videos in Australia you are the Linux container creation you gotta get stuff, you gotta get bitches out there you know and all of that stuff, it must be

really tough for you, I think yeah, it's, I mean it's what I do yeah, it's just I, how do you how do you do that, you know I don't know how you do what you do, so fair enough

you get used I'm sure you feel the same way you just get you have a schedule or maybe you don't have a schedule you just have things

you want to do and you just find time to do them I used to have a schedule I no longer do because schedules just bog me down that's fair

so you just find time to do things basically exactly yeah so yeah before we go another 10 minutes and not end the show I'm going to do things basically exactly yeah so um yeah before we go another 10 minutes and not end the show um i'm gonna do my outro uh so if you want to hear the audio version of this and you're watching the video version you can find that on any podcast platform there is an rss feed if you want to find the video it is on youtube at tech over Over Tea. My main channel is Brody Robertson. I do Linux

videos there six-ish days a week. I have my gaming channel that is Brody on Games. You can find that on Twitch and YouTube. And if I rant about something on stream, it will probably be uploaded separately on Brody Robertson Reacts. Do not expect

good content there. It's garbage. It's a waste of time. Don't watch it. But if you want to see me rant about stuff, go over there. I'll give you the final word. How do you want to end off the show? I'm checking Closy on Games Out right now,

because I didn't know you even had a gaming channel for that matter. A lot of people don't. Yeah, I knew about your Reacts channel, and I know about TechCulti. I never knew about your gaming channel. The Re. A lot of people don't. Yeah, I'm, I'm new about the React channel, and I know about TechCoreG. I know you're watching a gaming channel. The React channel, I started that like a week ago. You know what, that one is not a gaming channel.

It just appears on my feed, you know. That's fair. It just appears, yeah, cause um, you know, one sec, I gotta check by the way if I'm subscribed to you, cause I keep watching your videos, but I'm not sure if I'm subscribed to you because I keep watching your videos, but I'm not sure if I'm subscribed to you. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, okay. That was a bit of an awkward ending, by the way. No, it's fine. It's fine. Is that all you want to say to end it off? I haven't stopped the recording yet. I think that's good enough. Okay, we'll just stop it there. Bye. Alright.