Tech Over Tea - Bringing GNOME Back To Non-Systemd Distros | Swagtoy

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

Following GNOME dropping the ability to run the desktop without the use of Systemd there was some confusion about what would happen next and today we have the developer on who made it so that was still going to be possible going forward.==========Support The Channel==========► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson==========Guest Links==========Repo: https://github.com/swagtoy/gnome-session-openrcElogind Repo: https://github.com/elogind/elogindOpenRC Repo: https://github.com/OpenRC/openrc==========Support The Show==========► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson=========Video Platforms==========🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBq5p-xOla8xhnrbhu8AIAg=========Audio Release=========🎵 RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/149fd51c/podcast/rss🎵 Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tech-over-tea/id1501727953🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IfFpfzlLo7OPsEnl4gbdM🎵 Google Podcast: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xNDlmZDUxYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw==🎵 Anchor: https://anchor.fm/tech-over-tea==========Social Media==========🎤 Discord:https://discord.gg/PkMRVn9🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TechOverTeaShow📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/techovertea/🌐 Mastodon:https://mastodon.social/web/accounts/1093345==========Credits==========🎨 Channel Art:All my art has was created by Supercozmanhttps://twitter.com/Supercozmanhttps://www.instagram.com/supercozman_draws/DISCLOSURE: Wherever possible I use referral links, which means if you click one of the links in this video or description and make a purchase we may receive a small commission or other compensation.

Good morning, good day, and good evening. I'm as well as your host, Brie Robertson. And you may have seen that post, I guess a couple of months ago now, about Gnome having stronger dependencies on System D. And then more recently, there was that whole Arctic Forum post where they were like, we are not doing this Gnome thing anymore. This is too hard without System D. And today we have someone who doesn't think it's too hard.

and managed to get it working on something that's not System D. Welcome to the show. How about you introduce yourself? Well, for one, I actually think it was a little hard. Okay. But it wasn't hard enough to just give up. My name is Island. I'll sometimes go by Swag Toy.

And I'm mostly a software developer. It's kind of all I do. I've worked on some things, the Gintu stuff is pretty recent in all the open RC stuff, but I've worked on some other open source projects. I've worked on KDE in the past a tiny bit. I've worked on Enlightenment some. I've worked on Supertux, surprisingly. And now I've been picking up some Gintu stuff.

I wanted to try some small tasks, you know, like bumping Gnome. It's not a very small one, but it was, it's been going. pretty well so far. Anything you want me to say here? No, no, that's totally fine. I guess we can just it's probably a good idea to get started

from like where Arctic was coming from just so everyone's kind of up to speak. I think that's what a lot of people kind of know about, but there's a lot of people who probably have no idea about what even, like why there is even a problem with Gnome outside of system.

day. Right, actually, it's a good place to start. I know, I guess to brief people up, Gnome 49, I mean, you did kind of mention this a while back, but Gnome 49 basically put a, I'm going to put it in quotation marks hard dependency dependency on system D, but I don't, I consider it more of a soft dependency because essentially the way it worked before is that Gnome session, which is just a program, pretty much handled and started Gnome. It's kind of how KD works too at the moment.

They basically have a little session manager. It starts K-Win. It waits for K-Win to crash because, you know, it's always going to crash. It pretty much just, it's like a little watchdog service. And Gnome also has one of those. But one thing it did recently was it started switching away from basically maintaining, watching and inspecting the services and it started switching

to System D for several reasons that I'm mostly familiar with as to why because there were some issues with the old approach there is so the next bit is Artix and Artix I'm going to be

very brief I don't care too much about Artix but I respect what they do they're pretty much trying to maintain like 300 init systems whether I consider that valuable or not is up to the viewer

but basically they are dropping Ghanom and entirely dropping Ghanom all because of the blog post and just everything that's going on and this started a little bit of

a shit storm towards well the Gnome session developers and stuff and you know all that didn't all. Yeah, Morgan Homes, I think, was one of the replies on that... Oh, that was one of the nicer replies. I didn't actually... Send me a link to that real quick. I can absolutely do that.

Yeah, we should have briefed on that, but... Probably, but... You got adieu, no one will... Nobody will miss you, less headache on Arctic's devs. If you discover you're riding a dead horse dismount, you know, normal form stuff you see I like this one I will focus on Hydroland

Anyway I actually accidentally started talking with an Arctic's developer because he happened to be in the same IRC channel as me when I was talking with the Enlightenment developer on it and he definitely didn't have some pretty things to say

but Essentially, they're dropping it because they can't siphon off of someone else's patches. And they, no hard feelings, but also a little hard feelings. They have more net systems out of the box than say, like, Gen 2, for example, which, you know, we only have system D and opens RC. We have some other ones, too, but those are more experimental, you know, you're on your own kind of situation. But for the most part, let's see, what does that? I actually have, sorry, I'm not, I'm not remembering the full list. So it is OpenRC, run it, S6, or D in it.

Is that all of them? That sounds right. There might be other ones that I'm not aware. Yeah. Yeah, I believe it's those ones, which is pretty similar to, I'm not sure to pronounce this. Devoon? Devoin, yeah, yeah, yeah. But.

I think they also have, like, I feel like they have another one that I'm just blanking on. I remember actually they only had like three. But this was a long, long time ago when I actually used that distro once. Shepard is what they had that I was together. Oh, Shephyr, I will actually touch base on that later because the Shepard developer, for Gnew Herd, has also done some work with this, though it seems a little out of date. But they did get it running, and they had like a post somewhere showing it off. Anyway, with Artics, oh, and I'll also touch base on Run It. I have a hatred for run it.

But basically they're going to drop it. And the first thing when I saw this blockpost that irritated me that is actually just straight up wrong is that it says here, this makes it currently impossible to launch Gnome, shell, and mutter on a non-system G7G system. This isn't true. And I know it's not true because for a long time, I actually had to run these directly without, you know, because Ginoleum session didn't work yet. they don't have to drop these packages and which is again it just kind of irritates me that they're saying oh you know we can't do it anymore

but you can run them directly they're not the most usable things but for the most part the only thing you're losing which I guess is kind of a big thing you'd lose is you can't log out you can't shut down you can't reboot and maybe maybe stuff like lockstream

but that doesn't mean they have to drop the package entirely because it still works So, as I'm reading here, yeah, they're pretty much just saying that they don't have the time or interest to write a new system B code path. And believe it or not, at some point, I will actually try and work with them to make it happen. Because I know there are lots of Arctic users. Before we segue off of that, you said you can't shut down. That, to a lot of people, is going to sound like a really big deal.

A bit more context than that. I'm assuming what you're saying is you can't shut down through, like, the Gnome interface. Right, right, right. So, yeah, pretty much just that. Because that calls out to Gnome Session, which tries to do, like, a clean shutdown. And if it doesn't detect, I can't remember Fondley, I think it's the D-Bus, like, session. Basically, it'll send, like, a signal, like, signal init to Gnome Shell, I believe. And then that will allow it to shut down and log out.

Right. but you could still shut it down through other means you're not going to have a clean shutdown technically speaking you can just patch Ghanom shell directly and like hijack how it shuts down like you can do that there's more than eight ways to skin this horse right right right but um

basically join me brother um I guess now we have to move on from that, though, because for the most part, like, they're just dropping it. They don't seem interested in picking it up. A bunch of useless comments. But there was some mention, I think, here about if my web browser went out freeze. Yeah, this is actually a very recent reply where someone was mentioning how I put some efforts. The video won't load.

Oh, yes, a person. That is a person is talking about it. Yes. you will a person yeah they're um yeah a person yeah so

anyway and that was actually a video I uploaded so me showing it off you know I want to get some attention you know

oh was this one of the ones that you sent me yeah I think it was actually it's just not loading here for some reason because catbox is really slow

but um yeah so basically the problem with the reason why I'll probably have to pitch out to help these distros isn't just because of Arctic but because of Devuan and you know these

you have these distros that have like 80 init systems or whatever for some reason they have the willpower to maintain that so what they'll probably want is a more streamlined solution where they can just write one init script and for each unit system

they support could be millions who knows It could be 2036. We could be using Ganoi herd. You never know. But so I'm probably going to do something like that in the future, but it's not a priority. So I guess now we can talk a little bit about how it gets ported. You think that's a good place to go? Before that, so the thing that Gnome has actually changed, what was that component doing? You mean the Ghanom Session component? Yeah, yeah, the part they've swapped out for a stronger dependency on System D.

So at the moment, I think I kind of brushed up on this, that basically Gnome Session was pretty much a, as someone actually just recently mentioned, a poor man's system D re-implementation, where it pretty much just watched the services and, you know, kind of just wait a, for them to die, you know, handled shut down and all that. It kind of worked, but there were some other things that I, the something I actually wanted to brush on a little bit, something

for Gnome 50 that's being worked on right now is Session, save, and Restore. This is something that Gnome does not actually have right now, but technically use it now. It's just kind of hitchedash the way. But, and the way things kind of worked

wasn't too possible. I mean, they could have figured out out of way for sure, but it wouldn't be pretty. And believe it or not, one of the most impressive things that was mentioned with this whole switching to just, okay, we're going to have the init system handle this as a user damon, is they removed about 50, I believe it's more than 50% of the Ghanom session code, completely sliced in half.

It's incredible. I mean, so, but other than that, Gnome session, it obviously handles lock. lockout shutdown. In fact, the way it all works right now is Gnome or GDM. That's a big one, the Gnome, like, display manager. Basically, it will spawn this Gnome session thing, and it will also pass an argument like, okay,

Gnome dash login, Gnome dash Wayland. And it will pretty much, that will handle starting everything up. So, is there anything else you want to be to go over? No, no, I think that's, I think it's good enough. Yeah. So, anyway, so you basically, now the next, the exciting part is how does someone who doesn't use System D basically replace everything? Like, how do they make this work?

And surprisingly. This takes us to your Ghanome session, OpenRC project. Yes, yes. So where is my web browser? Here we go. So the way, something that will surprise many people here is that Gnone, at least Adrian, he actually intended for other end systems to play in. And so this is, this is why I don't call it a hard dependency, because while it technically needs it out of the box, this was intentionally designed. Like it's not like there was some code I have to sit and comment out, you know, put it if zero. do this and remove that. No, it's nothing like that. In fact, it is all in It needs to be done. It's just a change on the open R.C side.

Almost. There, you do have to add a C file. This is the because you actually, basically, in the Ghanome session repository, if I actually look at the upstream here, you'll see this little file here called Leader-Systemd.

There's also this GSM-Sysm but I believe that's just not called on the, it's only used by leader or leader system D. So basically you have Leader Main, which spawns the other service, which is Leader System D. And what is special about that is that file right there, that single C file, contains everything relating just to System D.

Nothing else is involved. It does all the service spawning. In fact, it is pretty much the service that gets called by, well, GDM, it will call going to, session and it calls the system D thing which is called Gnome session init worker.

It calls that with the argument like okay Ganyome login, Gnome mainland and boom, we're done. At this point that will spawn at least with the code how it is. It'll say over D-Bus like hey, start this service, start all these services, start

like these D-Bus services, Gnome setting stuff, all the stuff that Gnome needs to start working. And at that point, that's it. So what about the non-system D distributions? And this is where that misconception comes in that oh, you know, Gnome doesn't care about

you know, non-system D which is surprising. I actually found some Gnome projects actually have support for E-LogMD so there is clearly effort to actually put into caring about those distros that are upstreamed. And so believe or not, actually we

the reason the Gnome Session developer doesn't want this stuff upstreamed is because they can't maintain it. They have a testing, you know, unit tests and all that stuff that they have to maintain. They actually use like Gnomo S for that stuff. And unfortunately, they can't sit and babysit, you know, every unit system on the planet. So they basically say, just modify these two files and add your NIT scripts and you're not. That's it. and then you can apply it or whatever you got to do to get it working.

My approach is nappy, but it's basically we just R sync the changes over and it'll copy it to the before I actually maintained a full fork, but someone said it's not a good idea and I agreed with them, so this is what we're doing for now.

So if you have the GitHub thing open for my open RC patches, you'll notice that there's one thing here that stands out, and it has to do with GDM, which is not related to this technically, but you might notice you have to add this user called GDM-Greter. And this is another good thing that I think...

So where is that under? It's under applying the changes, and then you'll see, like, a second little code block. You'll say, user add, GDM, greeter, all that stuff. What file is that in, sorry? the read me Oh, sorry, the read me. Okay, yeah, I'll be better. Gotcha. Sorry, I'm at the moment I say, okay, yep, yep, I see it.

You're good. So, GDM, there's another thing that, another system the dependency, but the way, I like the way this was handled, is that for Gnome 49, there is a fallback code pack. Essentially, there's a problem with GDM right now where they have only one user

called GDM Greeter. I'm not sure how KDE and all these people do that they probably don't but essentially there are some weird little quirks with only having one user like for example there's only one Dbuzz instance or something like that so for example if you change odd let's say you connect over RDP like a remote desktop connection and you change the volume on one session well it changes the volume for all of them and there's some other stuff like Auto Start some other weird stuff just conflicts that can

happen. So basically, there's this term called like seating with like log and D and all that. And essentially, when you only have one user for, you know, GDM, you can't really handle them. So this is where this thing called log and D user TV comes in. You might have heard of it. And it basically is a way to dynamically allocate users. As crazy as that sounds. It's kind of like, Like if you could do user ad, but without ever calling user ad, you basically, it'll do it for you. It'll delete it when it's done. It is crazy. But it's done specifically to work around some of these weird quirks with GDM and these bugs. And there's also another issue like accessibility support. I know like their little orca thing had issues with multiple seats. And this was required to fix that actually.

So, well, thankfully. So, also for anyone who doesn't know is a screen reader, just, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. That is pretty much that. And however, there's a bit of a problem with this user DB thing is that Elog and D, for those who don't know what

the Elog and D is, this is a fork of the system D log and D. It's basically just the parts for login D sniffed out. What is login D? It's basically like session management. Like, okay, log out, log in. users logged in it's pretty much every desktop needs it

KD needs it so there's a fork called E-Log and D made my I think the new geek developers, GYX and they actually recently upshund user DB support except I had to open an issue and

unfortunately they are missing one of the modules needed and this is actually how I learned today about the Slackware stuff because a Slackware developer also responded to my issue let me get that e-mog and be he actually responded this morning

good timing thankfully but um that he we basically need this little NSF plugin which is like a user look thing whatever mumbo jumbo it's needed for user DB stuff to work

and it's not included I don't know if the developer died or something or faded heart attack. He hasn't replied yet. He hasn't replied to anything in a while. But essentially, we can't use your DB yet. So that sucks. But whatever.

The good thing is that Adrian, the Ghanome Session developer, was nice enough to actually leave some fallback code, which is very generous of him, that will essentially just rely on old users, except you can also specify like GDM Griter 2, GDM Griter 3, At the moment, I only allocate one because, like, you know, seats are kind of a, I'm not going to say a niche edge case, but not as common. But if you need more users, well, you can just create more, create more users.

So as a workaround until Gannon 50, which believe it or not releases in like 2026 later the year, which is next, actually. They basically, he left some fallback code and, in fact, Basically, until userDB support works in e-log-n-D, this code will be removed, but I talked with Adrienne. He says, if people have to keep relying on the hacks, it won't be relieved until, you know, E-Log-D gets their shit together. Right. So, so that's good. It's very good for me, because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to even do all this stuff. So that solves that problem.

and so I'm going to kind of reiterate on the whole Gnome session stuff again basically Gnome basically you have to modify a few files and pretty much all you change at least as the person maintaining this is you just replace the system D unit stuff with your own init system in the past I was actually forking I was pretty much just forking I'm going to turn a fan on, sorry, but I know if it makes any noise. But pretty much, I just

called out to the OpenRC service thing, and I would pretty much just start the username, and it's like, okay, start Gnome Shell, start GSD. Later, I talked with Navi. Navi is the main developer of OpenRC.

They've been really friendly to work with. I kid you not everyone's been friendly to work with, which is very surprising. I probably ate up so much of Adrian's time just sitting in we would sit for hours trying to debug some of this stuff

he's been a blast which kind of makes me feel bad for some of the stuff he's gotten for doing all this because he's been extremely helpful he's put all this effort into making sure it works for all of us

instead of you're just saying oh every interaction I've had with him has been totally pleasant like yeah he seems like a awesome guy yeah yeah

like he's he's been really willing to work with everyone he put the effort in to make sure that you know us he didn't just pull that whole mentality of like oh you system dear die like um and that saves so much of us anyway worked with a navi and um for them like there helped me get some stuff figured out with open rc um and we actually have a library called live rc which is a c library which lets us uh what sorry was that live rc live rc it's kind of hidden in the

it's kind of hidden in like the open RC code base but um it's basically like a library we're just starting stopping services switching run levels all that fancy stuff

I'll send to the link later don't worry I found a package on Debian I haven't found the actual repo but close enough Oh, wow, that is it. Oh, here we go, and they've, oh, and just links to the OpenRC GitHub. I'm not going to find it in this GitHub.

Okay. I'll send you the direct link to it later. Okay, okay. So, basically, yeah, that's just kind of, it's kind of unrelated, but I just switched to using that library. And basically, what I do here, if I look at my code for, and in this case, remember, I you about the leader dash main or sorry leader dash system d thing on my version i just have leader dash open rc who would have figured um and basically what i did was i copied the code from leader system d it's pretty small like 300ish lines um not too small depending on who you ask i

don't know but um pretty pretty like a simple stuff though like all it really does is it takes an argument. Like, for example, are we Ghanome-Login? Are we Ghanome-Layland? And it spawns a service. That's it. That's the whole everything.

So pretty much, I have to do some weird hacks at the moment because one thing OpenRC struggles with is environment variables. And in fact, so I work with Navi a little bit, and pretty much we got some environment variables set up.

One interesting thing is we came up, she implemented like a little environment variable thing where we can basically upload environment variables to services. And we actually did this a little better than System D, believe it or not. Because System D,

the way it is is you upload the environment variable to, I told Adrian about this and it's like, oh, that's actually pretty cool. We upload in System D you upload an environment variable. It's the same variable. for every and it's every script. Like for example, let's say display,

the display variable or debus variable. Every service that depends on that is going to use that same one. So what we did for OpenRC or rather what she did was basically all of the each service has its own, like

and it has its own little like where like you can have this service has been here. where was that last in the last word you said um it when you're talking about making the um or handling of the variables you just cut out when you said i think probably an important word ah it probably was an important word so basically what it will do is it has its own scope and each service can import environment variables from one service without creating a messy, like, global, you know, for example, let's say you need Gnome to have the display variable.

This is actually one of the variables it uses. And you also want to have Wayland running, which it needs its own X setting display variable. So the way they work around this in System D is they create like specific variables. I think this is a GDM thing, actually, and they just upload it to System D, but they create them uniquely for each service. well with open rc we have a nice system where now we would set an environment for the service and only the service and it won't create a messy scope all over the place and it's pretty neat um so yeah i was uh talking about that so other than the hacks like we have some hacks where i basically just hard code like the display for example i don't like doing that but x11 is kind of weird with gnome anyway so So we'll have to figure out what to do with that. But until then, I'm just hard-coding, like, the debus variable and stuff. It's gross, but it's what we're doing until we get this feature, you know, merged upstream.

As far as I'm concerned, they said it works. There's a PR for it. I did some reviews of it, and I think it'll get merged pretty soon. And by the time that gets merged, chances are this will also be merged into Gintu. I guess I've briefed up on pretty much everything with that there's one more but oh yeah init scripts oh boy where do I even begin

you have to make some init scripts and so for anyone who's not in like the non-system D space what do we mean by these are net scripts I know I know this is something a lot of like open RC people always talk about knit scripts of all this what is what do we mean by this Well, and in it script is a script That understands Make sense

Fair enough But So System D has This thing called services And I'm not going to sit here And you know Pretend I have a hard-ons for System D But I will admit that Linux in general

It needs a System D I know that's hard to say for Even as someone who loves OpenRC But we need it Because there's like a hundred distros And one problem that you know, in the past was an issue, was that everyone had to sit and maintain their own and its scripts for all these distros, and it was just a pain for distro managers.

So, in package developers, of course. So SystemD kind of streamlines this with their whole service thing where, like, you know, you basically just set a few variables, but the nice thing about that is it will work on every distro, almost every distro, without any sort of acts or dependencies. And that's fine. I have nothing against that. so basically anyway there are these things called user services

and this is what SystemD uses and we lucked out so much on user services recently getting imported into OpenRC and what is a user service you may be asking well you know how you have those little services on boot that are like oh starting bullshit starting SSHD or whatever like that all that stuff

Well, user services are like that, except they start when the user logs in. Like, for example, you might want to start debuts. You might want to start pipewire. In fact, I believe Gentoo, we're going to start moving away from our old pipewire scripts and start relying on user services for that. They're kind of like autostart, but for what they don't depend on XDG. So that's all nice and dandy. So, and why is that needed?

Because, well, when the user logs in, you know, GDM, it starts the script. It has to start the user services for, you know, Gnome and all that. Because we want to actually be running Gnome as, you know, the user, not like a root or something garbage like that. I have actually met someone who runs everything as root, and I am worried about him and his family. But. Yeah, okay. So right now we have a bunch of little scripts here. You basically have to define all these yourself.

They're the ones that get called from your little open RC script or C file. And I don't think I could like share my screen or anything like that. So I'm not going to worry about that. But you can actually look inside them a little bit here. You can go into, you have the GitHub. site open, you could go to data and then open RC, and then you can just click any of

these. For example, like Gnomeshell dash Wayland, you can actually see the little hacks I introduced there. Um, let's see, where is it? I lost my tabs. Yeah, I have like

800. Which fall were you saying? Data, open RC, and then you can go to say like Ghanom Shell Wayland. Yep, okay. And this right here is a user service. You can ignore all the weird little like, you know,

export hacks I've done there. That's temporary. But basically, you can see there, the command there where it literally just starts Ghanom Shell. That's kind of it. And this is going to be a user service. And what's kind of nice about this is this also opens doors for session restarting. I'm not sure if you're aware, but with.

Gnome um you on wayland you can't really restart Gnome shell like you have to log out log back in all that junk um you could with X11 but right right so this will make that possible maybe um kind of slightly whoever whatever um because at this case you know we could literally just restart gunom shell and it'll restart like you know everything else will remain running it's probably not a good idea to do that, but it opens the doors, which is pretty nice, and it's kind of why, you know, Adrian, he wanted to move away from

basically his own or their own, like, hacked up system declone sort of thing. So, basically their user services, the one, there's like one specifically for like Gnome login. I actually

have in the Mason file here. You don't have to open that. But it basically creates like sim links of stuff. For example, that little file they're called GSD. Basically with Gnome, there's a bunch of these GSD dash

like, I don't know, housekeeping, GSD dash keyboard. There's a bunch of little settings dam and stuff. And I basically just sim leak those and then make them a dependency. And it works out pretty well.

So, yeah, so basically this becomes an issue with some in its systems. like, for example, Slackware. And like I said, good, I remembered Slackware this morning. I've almost forgot it existed. But with Slackware, they have a weird-in-it system,

and they don't actually have user services. So their solution to this, and this is not the best solution, but it's a solution nonetheless, is to basically just pull the old code back in. Yeah, this is something that was mentioned on the Autics Forum. Yeah, this was, I just saw it this morning when I noticed that the guy was complaining about his little code not working, the same issue I had. Until we get user DB working, I have to wait for this e-log-n-D developer to wake up from a slumber. So SlackWord just kind of reverted it, and it looks like that's been working for them.

I think I actually saw someone on Reddit, like mocking someone. and basically saying actually it works here but you know redditors and they're not understanding anythingness but um that was a very honest shake there no I saw the exact

comment you're talking about I think I included that in my video yeah I think I saw that one too so pretty much yeah they just reverted the code and that I think Adrian said was weird but

and believe in his blog post, he actually said you could just do that. It's more work, but the only other solution is that they implement either, they either like hack up their own, like a user Damon thingy, which they can do that. It's not hard, honestly.

Or they could just, yes, drops, you know, you know, looking at you Arctic's developers. But, um, but, yeah, that's, It. That's kind of everything. Like, I think I've brushed on everything. I could brush on, like, user DB.

Did you lose me? No, not need. Sorry, Discord was acting up. So, difficult. But one thing, for the most part, everything works. I am actually on Gnome, 49 as we speak. 49.1, actually.

There were some bugs with 49 that need to be fixed. But everything works besides Auto Start. I don't use that, so I haven't gotten to it yet, but I'm going to get to it. So, yeah, Arctic's gives up. I literally have in my notes here, they are morons. Slackware got it. Basically, yeah, they just revert the cut.

code, so I'm trying to think of some other things to think up, because I've got, I'm one over everything in my notes here. Well, what we haven't talked about is... Yes? No, go on, go on. No, it's time, we can get to that afterwards.

Do you, there's something in your notes? Okay, I'll guess I'll go on, but if you'll hold your thoughts for a second. I've got my notes on the screen as well. It's fine. We can get to it. So, one thing, that I feel like is interesting to brush

hop us, what is everyone else doing? If you actually watch in that little video, don't actually pull it up now, but if you watch the modernizing Gnome video, somewhere around the questionnaire mark, you can hear what sounds like a KDE developer. I think I actually knew exactly who it was based on the accent. And he was mentioning something about, you know,

how they actually want to do similar stuff. They actually have this project. I'm going to pull it up. KDE login, I think. Okay. KD login manager, maybe. Here it's Plasma Login Manager. They're doing something similar.

Very similar, in fact. Maybe not exactly similar, but kind of like GDM, because they have some issues with SDDM. You might even know some of them, like, having to, like, copy the config over and everything. Well, yeah, I think I... Can I spoken? to David about this? I don't remember

but they have a lot of issues like because it's not part of KDE there's obviously the mismatch of configuration and then getting their screen reader working in it and then getting like non-English input and virtual keyboards especially because they want to

make a new virtual keyboard and then multi-monitor stuff SDDM is not a bad project it's just a very generic project which means you're not going to have that tight level of integration like GDM has Yeah, so they're basically dealing with the same problem that GDM was kind of created to solve. And so they pretty much, they're duplicating a lot of code.

They have SCDM, which does so much generic stuff. I'm not sure how it does stuff like Bluetooth and all that, but I know pretty much they have to have two implementations of everything, which sucks. And I think it sucks a lot. So Gnome has a very interesting approach and believe it or not, Enlightenment, if you know what that is, the window manager. Rasterman wanted to actually do his own thing

because I brought it up at some point and he wants to do a thing called log in mode which is exactly how GDM works and I like the GDM approach where they basically what GDM does and all it does is it literally just reuses Gnome Shell. In fact, you can start Gnome Shell from your terminal with like

a mode setting and just sets like GDM, you don't even need GBM installed. And it will pretty much just look like the same thing GDM looks like. Funny enough, but it's a great approach because that means that they don't have to sit and duplicate a bunch of code. They pretty much just start GDM. In fact, you know, for example, one thing with Gnome is you need GDM to lock the screen. It pretty much just like, like when you log in, it turns off a lot of stuff to like save memory and all that.

And then, you know, when you lock the screen, it'll go back to that. Like, and it will, it's a nice little, like, process separation thing they're in there where, you know, you don't just have Gnome Shell itself logging because, hey, maybe you've seen that's really hilarious KDE error

where if the lock screen crashes, it'll say, like, you have to press, like, control alt F1. Oh, yes, yes. Can we find a picture of it? Yeah, there it is. Okay. Ah, man.

It prevents that case for like, okay, what if Gnome shell crashes? You know, what do you even do there? Well, okay, we might accidentally unlock the session or whatever. That wouldn't be good. And all sorts of bad stuff. So, like, anyway, Plasma, they're redoing their other, they're basically doing the same stuff, kind of. I know in the talk with Adrian on a modernizing Gnome,

I think one thing they even addressed was like, how do we do this stuff without pissing off all the people that don't use system D and stuff like that? Because they want to do all that stuff and they think it benefits them. But they have a very angry mob of Reditors and people on YouTube, no hard feelings, that will probably find their location

and their kids and family. if they do stuff like that, which is true. It's just how the environment is, you know, but it's hard for them to do that stuff, but they want to. You know, Gagnom already has the bad reputation. They can get away with that stuff at this point. I actually skimmed a little bit through plasma logger, and one thing that actually bothered me a tiny bit,

I don't think there's a system D dependency yet, but it didn't look like they had something in place for, like system beef stuff because I know at some point they said they're going to start working on that but I wonder if they're going to do it like the way gnom did or if they're just going to maintain um like upstream everything for the record I like I said I used to work on kd a tiny bit I just like poked at kwin a little bit and I'll tell you why I left because the kb coach sucks so much but anyway I'm not well I'm curious to see what they do but what's interesting

is that it doesn't look like they're reusing plasma shell for this at least I think they're not I don't know maybe they are I know but with Enlightenment with Rasterman said he'd do one day is he pretty much do what GDM does just reuse Enlightenment window manager

display like a fancy lock screen and then you don't have to reuse all the Wi-Fi Bluetooth all that stuff good solution um Yeah, that's pretty much what... Hello.

Are we good? Okay. Yeah, we're good. Okay. Anyway, was there anything else you wanted... You said you had something on your notes you wanted to talk about. Yeah, so you mentioned a little bit about getting this upstream. Obviously, upstreamed into Gnome isn't going to happen,

but you were saying before about the Open RC project. Yeah, so we're going to just move I know we're going to move the repository to the open RC one which means nothing but it does mean that if I for example die of a heart attack or something or you know other people can pick it up and maintain it because I think Navi they said they were going to do some stuff with it just poke at it fix some issues

the open RC stuff we were going to upstream was the environment variable changes Right, okay. Yeah, is that what you wanted to know? Was basically, yeah, we're going to have a way to submit, like, export, import environment variables, kind of like System D, except we're going to have a scope because we're cool like that. And that'll actually be nice, and honestly, I think System D could try to do something similar. So it's, I think it's worth mentioning that me personally, I don't hate System D.

And actually, one of the things I like about, at least the Gintu philosophy is we're less about like, oh, we're one of the ultra-minimalists who want to get rid of everything. We think everyone should be able to use whatever they want. They have the freedom to, you know, lots of people, I believe one of the primary Gintu, like Gano, maintainers actually use the system D. Lots of people use it. And it's good that we kind of support both. We have the option. And what this also happens is we end up taking ideas from System B because they actually have some pretty good ideas sometimes believe it or not i mean i know leonard didn't really hit so well with

pulse audio i don't think he can even hear this video right now but he did a good job with the init system that's for sure like there are some things you know whatever you think personally i don't even know what a knit system you use i'm on arch linux i don't even think about my knit it's just system d oh i use arch yeah i took you as an arch person honestly I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not, but we'll just go with it. Did you break up on me? Are we good? Are we disconnecting?

I can hear you just fine. Hello? Are we good? I'm gonna guess we're not good. Hello Uh Yeah there I can hear you

Uh Okay, I'm just to get in the call We'll reconnect it Okay, come in there Hello Uh, the moment if you mention you're an arch user, everything breaks, doesn't it? I just disconnect from the call, so I wasn't sure what was going on, but are we good now?

Yeah, we're good now. Okay, okay. It's always Arch, isn't it? Yeah, well, I am on Neri right now, so it's like, you know, it's the Ghanome. on top of a smithy-based environment on a scrolling window manager, there's many things that can go wrong here. I am going to assume you made these programs up

because I've never heard of it. I used to have a joke where I would go to people and they would be like, what, like, they would ask for alternatives to programs and I'd be like knobgoblin. I would tell them, you should try knobgoblin. They would reply to me, like, oh, what's Navioplin? It's like, oh, it's this, like, audio day when I'm using.

It works great. But they Google it, and it doesn't exist. Anyway, anyway. I've never heard of Neri. It's a fairly small environment, but anyway, it's a whalen composite. I don't know. I don't know if you're on... Well, I guess you're saying you're using Gnomi.

Are you using the X-11 session, then, or are you using the Waylon one? I look insane I'm not using the Canom X-11 session it's kind of on life support at this one I believe by Gnome 50 they're actually playing on not axing it but they're free

to remove features or remove bits of it which is a whole other story for another day it looks like they're going to get a shit storm for that I think they've already been getting it for like the past year so I don't know if it's gonna I feel like anyone who was

dependent on the X-11 session, I would hope, has sort of come to terms of the fact now that it's not going to stick around. It's, I think one of the issues I remember was a Gimp developer, actually saying that color support was bad, but this has all since been improved a lot. And I think, like, you know, at the time, it was a bit premature to be kind of like, okay, we're going to drop X-11. But the one thing I know is a lot of distributions are dropping X-11 now, like, entirely. they're not even offering it.

Ubuntu, who I believe stuck with X-11 for such a long time. Invidia finally received the message from Linus like many years ago and stepped their game up. It looks like they've greatly improved, I think, Wayland and Video Sport, which, hey, is good. But I also don't use no video, so I don't know. Well, it's not just the Nvidia drivers that are better. Also, the, like, Novo drivers are actually in a relatively good state now. So you can even use those. They've got Vulcan support working mostly.

But, yeah, there was an issue with Invidia cards for a while where they moved a lot of the... I think they moved things like fan control and clock speed out of the driver into firmware on the card. so the drivers just couldn't do anything you couldn't reverse engineer it because you couldn't change the firmware on the car so it's like it's just going to run at minimum speed enjoy your

very expensive paperweight it sounds like something a video would do but yeah it looks like the state of things has improved a lot I'm I've worked with X-11 a little bit in the past I've had to mingle with some you know, X-lib

and I'm looking forward to its death a little bit. I'll miss it but um it's certainly I have I was always a little skeptical with Wayland at first even to this day I'm a little bit but I think now that like there's been a lot more

I want to say enforcing of it it is allowed a lot of room for it to improve to the point where like I think if I use like X-11 my laptop the battery will drain like a motherfucker that that's for sure. But just so much stuff is improved with Wayland. I think enlightened window manager, which like I said, I used to play with that a little bit. They

have Wayland support, but X-11's still kind of a king in that regards. I don't even want to get into the way Kaywin separates the two. That was actually the reason I left working on the project. Well, they've recently split it into actually being able to install as two separate packages now. that's an improvement. I think they've improved so much of it since I've left. I know one of the things I think I did actually was I was a bit disappointed because at the time like we're saying here,

Wayland was pretty bad, or at least it had bugs. And I implemented a trackpad jester support for X-11. But this actually ended up having some issues anyway because X-11 is so awful that the way, like some applications which you sit and eat up the inputs so I'd end up trying to do swipe gestures and they wouldn't work on Firefox unfortunately right right yeah so I'm like you know what you're right let's just let's just close this PR and move on pretend nothing happened so there's some things that I just

I'm looking forward to how Wayland plays out um I do understand that I'm not a big fan of them planning on dropping X-11, I'd at least hope to just kind of keep it around as like a last resort, but, you know, there's also just, the thing you have to understand, the more you work with software development in general, it's, it's hard to please users and please yourself because when you're, when you, one of the worst things you could ever deal with in any project, and this is something KDE suffers from so much, and I think they've learned from it since KD4 is BitRot. And you never want to deal with BitRot.

And it can completely just hold back your entire project when you're sitting and juggling two different systems and having to test them. And as I've gotten kind of older and more experience with all this software development in general, I can't blame Gnome for dropping all this stuff. And having this whole like, you know what, we're done kind of approach to software development. because it's what's allowed them do I want to say get so far with like say wayland support and all that and it's even you know it's kind of pushed wayland to generally you know it's kind of uh you know you got to have someone to say to like point the foot the burr a little bit and just start like kind of pushing something and as of late i think you know waylands it's received a lot more attention lately which is good depending on who you ask but for one thing it's for certain is it's it doesn't hold back the people that

are actually working on the software and I think this is something a lot of just FOS communities in general struggle with is that they have no respect for the developers and they think they just do it because they have some secret agenda sponsored by Red Hat

to kill off X-11 and have total layland supremacy or some shit like that but it's not like that it's just you know you can't torture the developers they are the ones that make the software in the first place if they want to do something you don't like,

you have to suck it up. And this is open source. You know, if you don't like it, love of God fork it or try and maintain it yourself. Like try picking it up maybe. Working with the developer, because most people are willing to work with this kind of stuff. It's just a lot of people are instead

choose to be harsh about it and go on Reddit or G or whatever and just sit and complain. Let's not talk about G. Look, at least G. when they do it, they're funny. That's true. That's true.

I'm not a G browser, but every so often people will send me a thread about myself. I'm like, oh, God, what is this? I haven't browsed in freaking forever. I know one of the thing that always made me laugh was I think one of the Gnome developers, when they added thumbnails to the file picker, they actually referenced the meme.

And I think they had a video, you've probably seen it, where it's like the death of the file picker. I'd love that one. But, yeah, just, it's just kind of how it is. It's just, X-11's, it's not a paperweight. It's a lot of work to maintain X-11. And there's kind of a reason why a lot of people just are shifting their focus away from it.

It's just dying. I know there's like this thing called like Ex-Liberi. I'm going to be really honest. I'm not getting into that. I don't know anything about it, personally. But if somebody wants to keep it going, at the end of the day, right, like if you want to keep a project going,

you fork it, that's totally fine. Like, that's fine. Like, that's the beauty of open source in general. It's like, this is actually one thing why I like the GENTU so much is that if I don't like something about software, I can patch it. Like I can just, like I said,

I knew a guy, um, absolutely insane person. that was so dedicated to running everything as root. Even though he's a psychopath, he would actually sit in... Don't do that. No, no, I actually just like shop working with him. He would sit in patch programs that would hard, like, prevent root from work.

And I kid you not, one of the fucking programs was Tor. Aha! Yep. I wish you luck. Wish you luck. Oh, man. But it's it's just how it is. Like, as I've

kind of said here, like, everyone's been friendly. Adrian, for example, I was kind of expecting at first when we talked, like, a whole like, oh, sorry, I can't help you kind of mentality, but the complete opposite. Like, I can think my opinions on most of all. The

Gnom developers has changed that, like, most of them. That, um, they're pretty friendly to work with and they're not just they don't have this whole like oh we're going to remove this f-you mentality like they do a lot of things for a pretty good reason and they often like follow up as to why they do things sometimes most of the time um instead of just you know doing something and being like yep uh suck it up uh get over it uh you can fork it if you want they'll try to uh work with people which is nice um you know what I actually realized

I forgot was Shembert. There's not much I'm going to say about Shepard. It's right here in the middle of my list. I have it highlighted right now. Before we segue to that, one thing I did want to say is whilst I totally respect the way

Gnob's handling stuff where they just, you know, they don't feel like they want to keep the bitrod around. They just want to streamline things and folks on the things that, you know, they're actually developing. At the same time, I do respect the approach that KDE has where they're like, you know what? We actually will let the X-11 side bit rot.

We know we're not maintaining it. We know that Wayland still has some things that we need to get done. So we'll just get rid of that later. I don't understand why getting rid of it now might be a good idea. But I can also understand the approach that KDE is taking, where they just say, that's a later problem. People are happy with it, mostly happy with it. let's get Wayland in as good a state as possible and then take that away.

Yeah, so the thing with KD. Wayland is, KD.'s Wayland in general is, at least for a long time, it was always kind of behind. It probably still is a little bit today, but Ghanom, on the other hand, they were kind of the first people on it, I think. Like, they were right on top of it as soon as, you know, trying to push it hard. And I think they didn't all right job. it because it kind of you know like the thing you got to understand is it benefits everyone you know more people that can sit and report bugs for you know wayland or whatever with DRM all that stuff they can uh it benefits everyone in the long run and uh it's it's in that positive even if you don't use gnome or not and it's why you got to trust in those projects to do that stuff um

and i agree i'm actually more of a fan of keeping them both around in fact gnomes approach for Gnome 50 is actually they're not removing it, at least I think, but they're basically saying that people are free to start cutting it out. Yeah, I know it's not going to be built by default, and yeah, so, like, but when you start cutting things out, you're at a point where it's like, yes, it's still technically there, but if you're cutting things out, there will come a point where it just doesn't work anymore. Yeah, like, um, one thing I might actually do if people are nice enough to me is I might actually try

and maintain X-11 for a little bit at least I'll keep patches for it I'll try to mean because I have some knowledge of X-11 stuff like that I've worked with it before I've had to prod into enlightenment a little bit it's pretty similar

and I'll try my best to I might not like pull in like new features they add but like I'll at the very minimum try to keep it usable because you know we have some a lot of Gintu users, we're all about kind of choice, you know, and we want to kind of, if I put the effort in, I might maintain it, but unfortunately, I don't use X11, and surprisingly, I don't think a lot of, or Gano, we don't even have a lot of Ghanom users, honestly, I don't know, but, um, yeah, I would

be interested to see what, like, download numbers look like on GENTU. Like, what are people they're probably not that low. Um, I mean, I know, like, it's less like the hard numbers, more about like the percentages what are people primarily using yeah we need we need something like a pat like one of those like things to be in does like the pop count or whatever popularity yeah that'd be neat but um from i mean there's more kd users i'll say that like it kind of fits with the the k the uh gen two mentality in general anyway of just you know so many options and choices yeah i would expect window managers and kde probably that would be my guess at least but who knows

yeah I think window managers are more of a arch thing yeah maybe but there's a large here of window manager users I guess I can

before we go on the Shepard I'll talk about like Gen 2 in general like I currently have the Gnome 49 PR request up it has been pushed not too long or not push sorry but it's up now

I'll link it maybe later but So what we're going to do for it is we're actually going to mask. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term masking, but like masking a youth flag. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if the user is using OpenRC, we are just going to prevent Ghanom session from installing. Because I still need to work out some issues with it.

Like, for example, I prefer to not have the hacks in. You know, I want to get the OpenRC stuff out first. then I want to you know add auto start support but now what we're going to do is we're going to have

the system T users will be happy and I'll create a separate full request with like the GDM and the Gnome session patches one of the bastards I didn't mention here was Pam I'm going to say it from the bottom of my heart

fuck Pam I hate Pam it's awful no one likes Pam no one should be forced to use Pam modules in case anyone's caring what it stands for. Yeah, it's pretty much done for login. When you log in, Pam will do a bunch of stuff.

It's how user services even work. I remember when I asked Adrienne about Pam, he actually said no comment, and I can't blame them because Pam is awful. But it does the job. Like, I had to patch, like, one file. So, oh, yeah, Shep. Shepard. So Shepard was actually, it looks like the people that did it first, but it looks like their approach is a bit older. They don't actually have any C files, so I'm not sure how they do it. Maybe they have a patch upstream. For anyone who doesn't know what GYX is and stuff, it's basically imagine NixOS. That's actually not very helpful. Imagine just literally any Linux or Stereau, but you use like Scheme list, Lisp for like,

everything. It's reproducible. I'm not even going to lie. I think that for the system Shepard, which is their, basically their OpenRC, their system D, it's pretty neat that it's scriptable with shameless, or specifically Ganoogw Weil, which is like a shameless

implementation. Remember how you said about the same words that sound fake? Yeah, you just need a, you'll need a Ganoon pop dog you'll need a new uh auto start and you'll need a most importantly knob goblin to actually use genu geeks very important but yeah it's um an interesting distro and they're the ones that i actually use their reference for a little bit unfortunately i can read scheme um

thank you emacs for everything and nothing but um it's mostly fine it's looks like they have the sessions hard coded this is something I worked upstream not to do because there's also stuff for example the Ghanome like initial login screen which I'm not even sure how to set that up yet I haven't gotten there

but it's kind of low priority because that stuff's mainly for like Fedora and Ubuntu they know that little like login screen like hey welcome to Fedora oh yeah yeah yeah that's basically that's actually started I believe by GDM and it just passes a flag

it starts Gnome Shell with like one window. It's a neat little approach, but I haven't got, I technically support it, but I don't even know when it's called. Technically to use it, you have to pass a, I believe it or not a kernel, like, option. This is actually something software does sometimes, but after Fedora installs, it will reboot and it will set a kernel option

like Gnome, like Auto Start, or not Auto Start, Gnome, like, Edit, login, and that will start it. It checks for that. okay yeah yeah but um one way to do it uh hundreds of ways to

start a login screen I guess but you know um um though they got it done first I don't see their C files um but they did have screenshots

somewhere showing it off um yeah I'm not familiar with any other distros that have done it, but as far as I know, I'm the only person that has done the most complete, you know, implementation of it. So I'm curious to see what, you know, the Gnew Shepherd people do as well in the future. And more importantly, what Artix will do. Well, Artix is... God bless their... Nothing. That's what Artix is...

Yeah. God bless their souls. Well, it sounds like the main thing with the Arctic's case is the guy who is maintaining the package doesn't really use Gnome anyway, and there's not really that many people that use Gnome on Artics, so I understand, it's just like a low priority for them, like I get it.

Yeah, I still don't like their mentality of it, but you know, these are Arctic users and they're a different breed of special, so you're kind of going to get whatever you get from them. And I can't blame them for just not wanting to deal with it because they have like 800 init systems they got to worry about and like I said if I ever feel like it's what I might do in the future is I might set up a nice

like I want to say a clone of their old approach which is like where you basically just watch the services yourself which basically will mean they only have to start one service and they don't have to fit and port all hundreds of them to each init system and that'll make it easier for like I know Devoin is a pretty big audience, honestly. Maybe not as big as Artics, but they're a little more professional with it, I should say. I know they'll benefit from that, too. Like, it's not just Arctic, so it might be worth the effort someday. Yeah, I know you mentioned in one of your earlier DM comments, like the idea of a pseudo-knit system,

not pseudo-as-in-that-sudo, pseudo-as-in like a semi-tremented. translation layer sort of thing. What were you meaning by that? Is that, were you sort of talking about here? Exactly. So essentially, this was actually what I wanted to do at some point because I was having issues with OpenRC, was that I would basically, because there are some problems, for example, with shutting down the actual Ghanom session, which for now I have a hack in a C file,

but I can actually just make a shell wrapper because OpenRC doesn't really handle services stopping very well at the moment. or technically with OpenRC called it a crash surprisingly it just says it crashes so the way I kind of have it is I just like call a shutdown service and it'll shut down everything

it does actually have to tell Gnome you do actually even the system D1 has to tell Gnome to shut down but this one does that and also stops the services and everything so nice little approach for now what was I saying a second ago I forgot

pseudo-in-it system so basically what that would have done is I would only have one user service in fact I might have not even had a service I would have just had GDM manage that where essentially it will act as a system D

or some sort of service manager it'll start GSD and everything it'll start this, that and everything all around it will and then it'll watch them which isn't too hard to implement surprisingly it's

it would have been an interesting approach though because it would have allowed me to fine tune how things like stop and start but there's also stuff for example like session management support which is coming in like an own 50 which would have been tricky but I probably could have gotten it working

but it probably would have helped those distributions a lot because essentially since they only have to make one service script they don't have to make a bunch of them and ensure those start and stop they don't technically need user services they could just have GDM started directly I think that would have been a more flexible approach

so surprisingly what I think was nice about all of this stuff is it was kind of a net positive for OpenRC at least because I think Navi even meant they like said something to me about like I'm pretty a pretty like apologetic person and I think they said like a no thank you because

like I think they like he got the motivated to start working on all the environment stuff again because essentially like I said earlier you know I don't hate system D I like its approach I think we need a system D because you know all these links distros

what are they going to do about them but and for the most part we have started to kind of find some better solutions for we also need like a nice alternative to run levels because right now we use these things called run levels I'm not really going to get into that

at the moment but and like I stop the run level and it'll stop all the services related to Ghanom without stopping pipe wire and all that stuff you know what else is running um yeah

this is kind of one of the things I've um I like to mention, and people who are hard against System D do not like to hear it, that System D, when it came along, was kind of doing a lot of things better, and has kind of forced everyone else to start doing things better as well. And I know people don't like to hear it, because, you know, System D does too many... I always love the System D does too many things. Like, my guy, it's a software suite.

It's not an internet system. Shut up. There are so many myths about it, actually. Yeah. Like, I think a lot of people say, like, oh, system D is like, a mono. It's a mono repo of just a huge monolithic monstrosity. I mean, it's not. Like, everything's like, I know from what I understand, it's split up into a bunch of

little services. I think the only thing they have that's just one big library is like Lib System D, but, like, you know whatever like taking the parts out of system D isn't hard like if you look at the E log and decode it's pretty much the same as what system D does and honestly

maybe in the future they would consider taking that out probably not but you know make it easier for everyone else but so like a lot of I'm even I even have some more controversial opinions about CISD like I actually like journal D like its whole little logging

system lots of people hate it because of like binary logs and everything but it makes it easier to like sort logs and programs and stuff like uh like when you have it in just plain text you know how do you like sort the time sort this sort that you got to do like crazy grep commands to like then like make your own like crazy pearl and one liners which the crazy thing is you can do that with system djournal d you can literally just have it spit out plain text and just do all your old stuff you used to do when you were like in your 50s rocking slackware or whatever like this isn't anything new

but I just think that like some of their approaches to things aren't bad and like some stuff for example like C groups which are like a fancy way to like prevent processes from like eating up too much memory that was one thing that OpenRC

actually stole from system D because it was just really useful like I've obviously talked about user services but I'll I'll kind of address what I said earlier is like even if you hate system D, even if you don't use it, Linux needs a system D. It's not like the BSDs where you know, you don't have like 800 distributions of free BSD or something like that, you know, there's only really one free BSD.

I mean, there's forks, but like they're mostly based off of free BSD. So like the end result is that like you don't, in fact, honestly, like what system D kind of does, it does the same thing that the BSDs kind of do, which is funny because I'll see BSD users be like, oh, system V's bad. it was like it's a lot of the features that system d can do bsd kind of can do too like the design works similarly it's just that system d has to exist because there's like i said there's 800 linux distributions out there you can't have package maintainers or distro maintainers having to sit and create a knit scripts for everything themselves and when you just have a streamlined simple approach where like you know you can write one service and they'll run anywhere you know you need that Whether you like it or not, whether you use system D or not, it has to exist.

And, you know, there's just innovative, there's just innovative things about it. You know, it starts up pretty fast, honestly. Like, it can do a lot of stuff with like, oh, that was going to be some comments. Oh, yeah. I like to say it starts up more correct. It has a very, uh, starts a little too correct, actually, because you probably have services that'll, like, hang on stop, like a stuff. like a stop job is running.

Yeah. Yeah, we've all had a problem we try to shut down our system. It's like, ah, running a stop job five minutes later, it's still running it. Like, can you, what is happening? Yeah, the funny thing is that's actually because system V works too well.

So it's politely waiting for the service to stop. I just wish there was a way you could like press like Control C to stop it. I know with OpenRC if a service hangs, sometimes you can just like kind of stop it. Even on startup, for example, I think with OpenRC, you can like stop it halfway and like, you know,

if let's say like a service is about the hang, you can just press Control C or whatever. I think it'll stop it and maybe drop you to a shell. Pretty useful stuff. But there's a lot of, you know, whether you like it or not, there's a lot of nice things system be brought to the table that Linux in general just as a whole kind of needed.

like if it ever wanted to catch up with like you know macOS windows all that stuff if it ever wanted to even be on the same table you know it it just wasn't very healthy to sit and have everyone maintain their own system and like i said lennert he can design he can't design an audio damon but he sure knows how to make a knit system i'll give him that on the topic of audio um this is going to be out the week before yeah the week before this comes out i actually had the creator and main maintainer of wire plumber on so this is actually very timely I'm I've been using pipeware for a while and I honestly it's pretty nice I know it has like a nice like Lua

configuration system had it now is JSON do you have a bunch of Lua configuration because they changed about a year ago they switched to Jason of all things? Yes, it's because upstream pipewires also using it, so it just makes sense to do the same thing on both.

They still use Lua for scripting, but like general configuration stuff is Jason. So like, you don't need to use Luea to rename outputs now, but if you want to script it, there is still a little. I think that's pipewires fault for using Jason of all things, but anyway. It's not technically Jason. You know what? Somebody wants to argue about it. It's like a, it's like a, it's like a specialized JSON format.

I don't care enough to argue about it. You know what? Look at the bright side. At least it's not XML. Yeah, that's true. I've had, okay, okay, okay. XML is a totally fine machine readable format, but I don't, I don't like it. My, my worst experience with XML is, and you, most normal,

people aren't reading these so it's fine it's not really a problem but Caden Live project files are in XML and I wanted to export like chapter markers in like the YouTube chapter format and in

the file it's like 12 levels of XML deep and then it's a JSON list embedded in the XML yeah I hate it. I have nothing. I can't blame you.

I mean, it has its uses, but like 98% of the time, it also doesn't. So I'll take, I'll take Jason or whatever it uses it or anything. I have a similar gripe with, like, System V. I personally think it would have been cool if System D's used, like, Lua as its service format. Though I understand why they didn't, because, you know, they didn't want, like, during complete, like, init scripts, and, you know, you can always just call Lua directly, but it would have been cool, kind of.

I'm a, I'm a bit of a, don't did Riemong, considering that we use shell everywhere in Jintu and stuff, I'm a bit of a shell hater. And that's why I have those opinions. Well, I get why they didn't want to do it, because then you basically create the init script problem again. where now everyone's writing init scripts in cheering complete code and

you're going to break something. Yeah, I get it. Like the nice thing with at least with OpenRC, one thing that we try to kind of find a middle ground with that is that you can create services in like three lines of code. You don't have to sit and create a start function,

a stop, all that stuff. You can kind of inherit it and it'll mostly do what it can to work. And as a result, we can kind of port the same init scripts over to, like, you know, open or see, or sorry, like, uh, art, not arctic, but, uh, what's the other distro, um, Alpine? Alpine, yeah, like Alpine, yeah. Like Alpine, for example. Um, it reminds me that one thing I actually need to work on with Gnome Session, I think Adrian was talking about this was that the way he designed, um, the whole Gnome Session thing and how it was, like, modular and like, you could play, and your own stuff is that you could actually what he actually wanted to happen at least what I didn't do yet was that you could actually just build install genome session on say like arctic for example not arctic outline um I think postmarket OS specifically is what he brought up was um that you can choose the NIT systems without like rebuilding everything you can just install

them I believe he said and there was a possibility that Gnome session just that package would just install like the main file and everything it would just exclude the main leader function or leader file. And then you install Gnome session OpenRC on top of that, and it'll drop in the extra minaries needed for everything to work. And then, for example, if they switch to System D, they can just, you know, reinstall the System D version. They don't have to sit and install the base as well.

And that's something I actually need to work on soon, but not a priority. I don't use Alpine or anything. so you've mentioned a couple of times that you don't hate the approach that system d is taking with that in mind why why don't you just use system d then well for one since i'm picking up some development a larger portion of our user base is open rc so it's nice to ensure a third upwards Okay. Second of all, I like OpenRC. I don't personally like just having one in its system out there in the first place. Like I said, I just said that SystemD has to exist. I didn't say I have to use it. I would probably use it in some areas like a server. It's not bad. The other problem with SystemD view with my personal issue with it is I don't like its service format that much. Like I grew up kind of, mostly using like free BSD and stuff

and I've just grown so used to those and it scripts and stuff that they're kind of second nature to me. So I'm just if I like I can hack up a system D service like out of memory but I can do that for open RC free BSD open BSD I can do it for all

of those like it's second nature kind of like you just call functions and stuff. So it's mostly like familiarity familiarity habit. There are some things I don't like about system these approach to things like they do a lot

of stuff I won't give them I'll give them that but there are some things I don't need them to do like there are some weirder things like Holm D I'm not too even like up the snuff on that there's some weird decisions with like their time date stuff for example I know they like default to like

Google name servers or some shit I don't know if they still do that these days but I don't personally care for that But like I said, I'm just more familiar with, you know, playing in it scripts. And generally speaking, I instead of just using System D, I would like to copy the cool stuff out of System D. So, you know, there's a good alternative on the market. And, you know, it's not just System B does everything. Because I'll tell you one thing, I absolutely hate SIFV in it.

I hate Plain and It scripts. Like, I think at some point I addressed my issues with Run It. I used to, I mess with Run It once on Void. it's awful it's horrible I had a server I had a daemon that would at some point not work anymore and run it has this really cool feature

where it automatically restarts the service if it crashes this would result in the fact that I couldn't as a station to my server anymore because it was at a hundred percent load because it run it kept freaking restarting the service and completely

destroying my server and I actually had to pretty much get access to the hard drive because I couldn't even access it through the ZNC console that's my VPS provider my system was a brick because run it didn't know what to do

and this is kind of an issue which is what happens when you go for the ultra simplicity approach to stuff you know you can go as simple as you want but you need things to at least work and you know the Gentry mentality isn't really about simplicity It's mostly about, you know, choice and, you know, customization,

which is, like I said, why I like that we support both. Like, I probably wouldn't like Gen 2 as much if we only supported one of the two. Like, but since we support both of them, you know, there's more options for everyone. Nice to have. I think choice is a good way to describe Gen 2. It, uh, the way that a lot of people have kind of described it to me is, like, LFS, without needing to do all of that, like, initial stuff. Like, you start from...

It is. You start from that, what is it, stage two, and then it's just... All of that stuff that is going to be the same everywhere, like, oh, compiling the Ganoo, all of this, like, all this basic stuff, that's good, and then we'll actually worry about the stuff that you actually care to change.

Yeah, it's kind of, like, that's kind of what all Linux distros are, which, you know, as you become more experience with Linux, you start to treat them like that, is they are literally just Linux from scratch with a package manager. And maybe like a, say, a opinionated default. That's kind of all it is. And, but there's a lot of extra stuff too for people like patches that get applied.

Like I know Gen 2, we, they apply all sorts of small patches to ensure things work smoothly. And, you know, bug fixes. I think at some point we were going to, like lots of packages, for example, they need upstream bug fixes in patches to get things to work. Even just like regular bug fixes,

not just like issues with Gintu. Like some packages have bugs that are just so severe that have already been fixed, but a release hasn't came out. So you backport the patch to ensure it works for now. So that's, but yeah,

I know there's some people that use Gintu just like, oh, performance or whatever. It's never been about that. It's just about choice. you know, just having that full control over your system, not the F unroll loops or whatever. I do love the performance argument. Oh, it's so performant and that I'm going to compile my kernel. I save a few milliseconds here and there. I'm going to compile my kernel. Much, yeah, okay. Linux is only free if you value your time.

I do like the GENDRU model. I use Arch because I've kind of always used Arch and, like, you know, what is what it is. I'm not picky at all about what people use. Like, you know, use Fedora. I actually like a lot of those distros too. Well, my main reason for not using anything else. Like, I've, I, I talk to some Fedora people, and they're like, hey, you should use Fedora, come try out this, come try out that.

I'm like, yeah, I could, but then I need to, I've got so much my system set up the way that I want to use it. I've been on this system for like five years now. I don't want to change anything. Yeah, I can't blame me for that. I think one interesting thing about, I think recently had an issue where I completely broke my system.

So it's just one of those things I like about Jintu, but I completely broke my system because I installed the binary package of curl for whatever reason. Don't ask why. Please don't ask why. But, in assuming you won't ask why, but I actually like what I did was

I just took, like, the stage three tarball. It just copied it, like, backed up my old Lib 64, and then copied the base one over. And then when I booted back into the system, when I crewed into it, I pretty much just re-emerged world and had everything rebuild. And bam, back to a new working system. In fact, ironically, the one thing that mainly brought me back to Gintu

was the addition of binary packages. Because, believe it or not, they're actually pretty useful. This is one thing about the BSD. I always loved was that, like, they have binary packages, but if I want to build something from source, well, I have my answer. You know, I can just go to the ports and build it the way I want to.

I mean, every link sister can kind of do that. It's just like stuff like the BN, for example, their whole like, oh, just extract the source and then give you a tariffball. It's kind of dumb. I prefer it a little automated. And that's what's kind of nice about GEN 2 nowadays.

Yeah, I did talk about the binary package stuff when that first became a thing. It's nice. Because that was like one of the one of the big things like one of the big jokes about Gen 2, right? Like, you know, as said, the whole...

I guess, okay, I guess with the kernel there has been a binary kernel for a long time anyway, but you know, browsers, maybe a browser is a bad exception. Anyway, the joke about Gen 2 was, you know, compile everything, this is a giant waste of time.

With that being there, it's like, it's less of a point to argue about and more, as you're saying before. It's about choice. Do you want to compile it? Is there some compile flags you want to set? Because you know, it can be a bit fiddly

to compile certain applications. So knowing that the compilation is going to work through your package management tool, like that is a nice level of security to have. Yeah, like I think one of the

bigger uses of binary packages is actually for that situation I just described a second ago, it's just the fix issues. You know, if say your source package is broken, you can just pull in the binary one because that usually has a pretty sane default, and you can test with that, get things back up to snuff.

In general, it's just, it's very nice to have, like sometimes I find myself in the pickle where like I want to install a package, like now I don't care about customizing it. I just going to grab the binary package, and it's usually there for me, so that's pretty nice. It's one of those things that I think, like, if GENTU didn't have it, I probably wouldn't be using this.

I know all the hype nowadays is NixOS. There's even been some people that have left Gintu development to work on Nix, I think. I haven't messed too much with Nix. I think it's interesting. There are some parts of it I like, actually. But I know, like, there's, and then there's, you have, like, them, which is, like, all binary base. And you have Ganoo Geeks, which I know is, like, all sorts. source-based. So we're kind of just in between that little land.

Yeah, Gen 2. I can't personally say too much about those distros. No, that's fair. That's fair. I've had, um, I had a NixOS release, a manager on once, and I still, I understand the Nix model, but, it, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I cannot justify to myself actually running it. Like, I get it, and if I, if I was going to do it, I'd have to, like, start making a ton of videos about it because I just,

I just don't want to deal with everything that it seems like you have to deal with if you're doing Nix. That's just not for me. Like, Arch, you know, people, people who don't know about Linux seeing Arch is a difficult project to run. Oh, it's, it's so difficult to maintain a rolling, no, it's not.

No, it's not. It's very easy. You just do update. Every six months, there'll be a manual intervention. The thing that irritates me, oh, you can keep going. No, I was just going to say, the Nexus model having to worry about, like, writing config files to install packages and all, like, and learning an entire new configuration language. I'm just, I would like to do it. I just, I keep putting it off. I can't blame you.

I know that with, like, one thing we have that is good enough for me, at least with Gintu, is we have slots, which are pretty much what Nix is all about. It's like with slots, you can basically install specific versions of packages on the same system. Like, for example, I could have two versions of GTK installed. I did not know that. Two versions of some. Yes, a very nice feature. And this is actually what Nixos kind of existed to solve for my knowledge, is that like,

Okay, what if you want Python 2 and 3 installed on your same system? You can kind of do stuff like that. But it's kind of also weird because, for example, why would I want, like, I don't know, the latest version of, like, I don't know, like them, I guess. I'm just making up something. Like, I don't need three versions of that installed on my system. I only need one.

But as a result, it kind of just creates all this litter. Like, you know, every package is usually a little larger because it has to, maintain its own state and all that stuff. And then there's the whole thing with like, oh, it uses a functional programming language. I'm like, who gives this shit, man? I don't know. I'm just kind of happy with what I've used for a long time.

And I've walked into NixOS. I like some of its features, but Gintu kind of already has some of those things that I need anyway. Like, you know, slots for primarily libraries, which is all I need them for. But at the same time, I also like to patch stuff. And for my knowledge, NixOS is binary based. There's also Ganoo Geeks, but Ganoo Geeks is a Ganoo Project, and you know how that goes.

Yeah, for me, the only thing that would really matter for is software that I kind of need to know is working. Like, I had an issue the other day where Caden Live, I don't know if it's a dependency, where in the stack it is, it's just decided that it can't see my GPU anymore. So I swapped to the flat pack version, and yeah, that one's packed. I don't know if the, I'm assuming that the arch packages probably broke something then, because it's the same version in the flat pack and the native package. So it's probably something the arch maintainers did.

But I kind of need my video editor to be able to render video. That's pretty important. This is actually another thing I love about Jen too, is the rolling model for it, is we're semi-rolling, but that doesn't mean you can't pull. in the newest packages. We have a term like unmasking a package to like

for example typically when a package is introduced to the GENT2 repository it is marked as testing which is

similar to say something like Gnome unstable or whatever however one thing that's great you can do is if you want to install an old version of the package

you can do that assuming you know the libraries don't conflict and everything but for the most part you can roll back to stuff if you want to. But even better, though, is that there are considerations before packages are put into stable,

and sometimes you can actually just unmask a package. Like, for example, say, I want Gnome 49, but right now I think in Stable, we have Gnome 48, which was only a couple days ago, surprisingly. If I want Gnome 49, I'll just unmask it. I'll say, like, okay, I want the testing version of it. I can run Gnome 49, while everything else, say, I want, I don't know, Ghanome TechSed or to be Gnome 47 or something, you know? Like, I can have kind of pick and choose, like, in your situation, say, Katie and Lide breaks on me,

when I could just kind of roll back or at least install the old version until then. Well, there's also Butterfess and all that, of course. Again, there's multiple ways to do things. Certainly. I think Arch is usually like the moment the package gets bumped, they just get rid of the old one. Yeah, usually. There's some weird, random exceptions. Like, I remember, I think it was like two or so years ago,

there was some regression in GCC, where I think they held back the package for about six months. You can hear me? I think right now we're, oh, I just said typical. Right, right. We've, I think we had some issues. We've been recently bumping GCC. I know there's some progress with getting packages to work with C-23.

So that's been, like, we have some breakages every once and then pretty often sometimes. But most of the time, the nice thing with Portage is Portage will survive. I broke into the BN system and promise, I can promise you, it remains broken. It's impossible to fix those fix app if it breaks. But Gen 2 is, at least Portage. sorry, is really good at just not breaking like, it's hard

to break it. Unless you really screw stuff up, you know, whatever. Well, we kind of segued way off of Open RC, but I still think this has been, I don't know, I've enjoyed this. This has been fun.

I've never really been on this kind of thing before. I've never even really been on a I want to say like, it's this kind of public arena. This is probably like my, I think the shoutout I received at like, I didn't even receive like a direct name shoutout, but that was enough to

make me pretty giddy. Was, like, having my work kind of acknowledged because, hey, you know, the reason I do open source is for attention, obviously. Do you have any experience like doing public speaking or streaming or doing a talk or anything?

Hmm. I mean, I've kind of work at a job where I do a lot of, you know, like, you know, usually just like pep talk and stuff. Like, uh, maybe not pep talk, but more like just slow chatter. Like, you know, what's up? How you been? And, uh, it's helped me a lot with that kind of thing.

Uh, I am usually not too bad with public speaking. I'm not going to wink, wink, but, uh, um, I think this is definitely an easier approach. It's just doing a podcast. No, I was going to say, because a lot of people I have on, if they don't have experience with it, they can't really formulate their thoughts in a way that someone else can understand. And, you know, you've been doing a perfectly fine job here. I appreciate it. I, yeah, I've, I mean, I definitely, like, I have some friends.

I've had to, like, give my own little mini speeches sometimes on things. Right. But I think a good skill when working with open source. general that you have to have is social skills a really good skill actually one of the most important and unfortunately you don't see people there like that um so it's it's like this for example it's this whole little talk we're doing this helps me a lot because you know I'll probably have to talk in front of big people the groups of people um which honestly god I'm surprised I'm doing this running off of like four hours of sleep and holding up so um so

and I could probably stop saying um so much but you know speech 101 um um so it's yeah this is definitely the first time I've done this kind of thing but it's been good that's kind of why I wanted to talk a little bit with you beforehand just to kind of get to know you because I know this might sound strange thing to confess

but I've I don't watch Linux YouTubers any of that kind of stuff I don't really even watch tech YouTube or anything like that. Mainly because I can get that stuff from like, you know, a blog post, you know, not the shit on your work or anything. I just, I typically, it is a, it is a recovering trend for people to refer to me as a as a glorified screen reader recently. I know, I know there are lots of people into that stuff and that's fine though. Like I'm not like against the idea of like, you know, some people, maybe they want to have it in the background. That's something. I actually do sometimes

I'll be on a walk I'm going to have something you know playing in the background so yeah I so like that's like I think we first like talked I'm like what's that sticker on your like I didn't recognize it

I definitely am not like a frequent viewer year but I guess that makes it all the more exciting you know having someone that sounds like familiar with you no it's yeah I like I

Maybe I need some speech classes as well Jesus Um Anyway What was I saying Yeah a lot of people I have on aren't Like they may be like Tendentially familiar with my work

They may have you heard my name before But may not necessarily be active listeners So it's not like a new thing To have someone on that isn't really aware of me like so I don't know I'm kind of used to it myself and I think you are right there about you know people liking just background knows I'm kind of the same I'm you know if I'm cooking food or something I like to have something on in the background you know people some people have a TV on some people watch other things but you know it's it's nice to just be listening to something going on if you don't have anyone that you know you can talk to right there you ever watch your own stream I've always wanted to ask a stream to this. Streams, I don't watch back as much, but the podcast I do check over because I do cut out clips as well.

And my videos obviously I have to watch through. Actually, watch through them twice. I watched through them once to edit it and then watch through it again to make sure I didn't leave any cuts that are duplicates again. because I've done that a number of times. Yeah, I do have respect for this kind of scene. I say scene like it's an underground thing, but like, I think there's also just some side effects, though, because, you know, YouTubers, I want to say the average viewer of a YouTube of YouTube channels can be interesting. We'll put it that way.

For record, I do not read YouTube comments. I actually do. I read most of mine for anyone who's curious. If you want a good time to comment that I will see it, any time before about 10 a.m. South Australian time. Anything after that, I'm probably not going to read the comment. Yeah, I know there's also some more questionable figures out there, like Lunduk and stuff like that.

But I noticed you definitely aren't trying to be someone like that. Where I don't think what Linux needs right now, at least, just open source in general, it doesn't really need, like, I want to say, like, Akeem Stark clone. Like, it doesn't, there's already enough garbage going on. So we don't need, I want to say someone, like, I'm okay with stuff like, for example, what you do, you mostly cover over it, you know, that's good. Like, you'll obviously get some controversial stuff every once in then, but that's normal. but you have some people that I want to say kind of incite the fire like I'm not saying

there's anything wrong with who you watch what you want to watch or whatever you get whatever you want but there are some people that like it kind of hurts a little bit for like you know distro maintainers package maintainers when you know you get like a video coming up like oh this guy's a moron and he should kill himself or whatever

like you have some like YouTubers like that that I want to say this not the time with all the drama that goes on every day in Linux like I swear to God I wake up every morning there's something new going on

I was definitely a lot harsher in the past not you know you should kill yourself but definitely a bit harsher in the past but one of the reasons why I like to do the podcast the way I do like I don't know if you notice but I'm kind of

kind of like relatively hands offish with a at least episodes like this, where I will give you questions and I will, like, sort of direct you towards topics, but I kind of let you just do your own thing. I kind of want to just, the way I like to do it is sort of give developers a way to show that there's a person working behind a project, that it's not just a username, it's not just a profile picture. Yeah, I absolutely like that. you know like I said I appreciate the honor I've never been on this kind of thing so it's good practice for me it's good uh getting to meet you and I guess everyone else that watches it um but like I said like I'm not I'm not so talking about podcasts I'm more just talking about like

it's fine if you go over drama but I know there are some people that go overboard like I said like you have like you have some figures like Lundu for example like usually they're they can they can make their titles sound a little clickbaity. I don't want to say that, but like you have some, they go a little harsher on the topic, and that's fine, but it often ends up backfiring for some of the developers

and people that work on it. Like I said, I appreciate you doing the podcast and stuff. That helps a shit time. But, you know, you also have some people that only focus on the negative aspect, they never look at like, you know, they only do drama stuff.

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, that's totally. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying there. Like, yeah, so, you know, obviously drama stuff's going to come up. But like, earlier this week, I did a video on, there's a website called Lotech magazine where they run their entire server on solar power. And it's not solar power with something else. It is solar power. So if the battery dies, the server shuts down.

And things like that. It's just, hey, here's someone doing a cool thing. Yeah, no, that's great. Like, it's cool to just kind of have stuff. By the way, does that server actually shut down when it goes nighttime? Or does it have a battery? They have a battery. They do have a battery.

But it does, I think they have a 96, 98% up rate, something like that. Obviously, most of the, most of the time it goes down is during winter. They also had a, there was a bad kernel update, which raised the, um, the power usage by, I think, a couple of volts. And that caused their, their outage rate to go about 30%. Well, that's interesting. Yeah, there's, um, yeah, I guess just to kind of summarize, I don't mind people going over drama because it happens, you know, it's good to have people in the know instead of just pretending it's not happening. It's just some people kind of incite violence with it. Like, it kind of turns into a shitstorm when they make a video.

That's okay every once in it. The problem's, like, big enough, you know, but, like, all the time. I couldn't do that person. That would drive me insane. I have to, like, tap out of some of the drama sometimes. I don't even know anything that's been going on with the whole, like, something like, was it System 76 or something? Or no, framework, I think.

All that stuff going on? Yeah, framework your thing of, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah clearly i don't know but um and i i think it just makes me a lot happier staying out of that stuff mostly like i'll maybe just brush up on it but i won't like dig any further into it

yeah completely understandable i think a lot of people it's i think a lot of who kind of just let themselves get very very attached to things that they aren't involved in i think is good way to put it where they spend every waking minute on a thing that they don't actually care about, but it's something that is

just, this is going to be my fixation for the next couple of weeks. That's, yeah, this is kind of like I said, why I wanted to even do this whole, because I think it started, I made like a YouTube comment, like, okay, this actually isn't the way you expected it to be, like, okay, the people were actually nice of them. It's because sometimes, like I said, you kind of all starts from a little bit of misinformation and you know you have people like oh well obviously gnom hates everything that isn't system d and you know that's why we're here in the first place is because that's not particularly true in fact it's quite the opposite there's a lot of consideration put into other things that you know i had to put up the work in and

i'm glad i got to address it but like it's kind of what i'm saying is like sometimes it can spread the wrong message i'm not saying your video by the way you actually did because for the, you actually did mention people working on it, so that's fine. But I would imagine other Linux YouTubers would probably just jump straight to the whole, like, oh, yeah, good and own bad. Right, no, I totally hear what you're saying. And I did see some of that coverage from some outlets. So, yeah, but, you know, what are you going to do? I can't change what other people are doing.

That's true. I can. So, yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I didn't really have anything else to say. Okay. I was going to ask, was there anything else that you wanted to touch on before we sign off?

Or is that pretty much it? Hmm. Now I'm thinking, but we have been here for like, how long now? it's just going on two hours oh wow feels like it's been like 30 minutes um i don't think i have anything else to say i guess i could probably shill myself like uh please uh test out the gonone 49 stuff i've been working on if you're on gint too and you use open rc um i guess i could shill the other thing i was working on yeah if you want to mention anything that you want to shout out feel free to do so.

Me, myself, and I, I'm the greatest. I think my latest project that I've been picking up, I tend to pick up projects and then forget about them sometimes. It's how it is, but was, I'm working on a portage clone,

which, you know, like, emerged. It's pretty slow. Not because of Python, surprisingly, even though I'm writing it and see like a maniac, but, but mainly just the algorithms like just some stuff

and it's primarily just to learn how it all works and that's just been something I'm working on Ginti related yeah that's kind of it fair enough fair enough any other links

nothing I'll include anything you want to mention or maybe if you forget I'll just put in the description down below just send me a link if you think of anything else. Hello to any of my friends that are watching. Because I am probably going to link them to this. Yeah, I will send you a link to this one comes out.

No, I was just going to do my outro. All right, you can do your outro. Actually, I guess besides that, it was a fun time having you all, and I've really enjoyed this. I actually haven't had anyone on... Okay, no, I've had someone on involved in Gen 2. I don't know if, I assume you heard about it, the guy Imelow, who was doing Gen 2 on things like a PS2. I actually don't know that one too much.

Okay, yeah. He's done Gentile on a number of devices that you shouldn't put Gen 2 on. You'd be surprised how long it takes to compiler. Linux kernel on a PS2. The answer is, it's a long time. I think my laptop, it takes like two hours just to build everything. It's definitely not two hours.

Too lazy to disable everything. Six? Um, yeah, no, it was a good episode. I enjoyed this, and thank you for coming on and doing this. No problem. I appreciate talking with you, and thank you for inviting me on. Yeah. Um, okay, I guess to do my

outro then. So, my main channel is Broody Robertson. I do Linux videos there six-ish days a week. Sometimes I stream as well. I probably will do another cosmic stream at some point. There will be streams there besides cosmic beta testing and bug reporting, so check that out if you feel like doing so. The gaming channel is Brody on Games. Right now, I'm playing through Yakuza 6 and Silk Song. And if you want to find the video version of this, it is on YouTube at Tech Over T, and the audio version is on basically every podcast platform tech over T. Spotify also has video if you care about Spotify video for some reason.

I'll give you the final word. How do you want to sign us off? Using the log out command, I guess. Sure, perfect. Fine.