Tech Over Tea - Chatting COSMIC Desktop Alpha With The CEO | Carl Richell

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

A while back COSMIC entered its Alpha 1 and then Alpha 2 and now we have the CEO of System76 Carl Richell back on the show to talk about the project. ==========Support The Channel========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson ==========Guest Links========== Website: https://system76.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/system76 Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/carlrichell COSMIC Epoch: https://system76.com/cosmic ==========Support The Show========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson =========Video Platforms========== 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBq5p-xOla8xhnrbhu8AIAg =========Audio Release========= 🎵 RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/149fd51c/podcast/rss 🎵 Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tech-over-tea/id1501727953 🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IfFpfzlLo7OPsEnl4gbdM 🎵 Google Podcast: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xNDlmZDUxYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== 🎵 Anchor: https://anchor.fm/tech-over-tea ==========Social Media========== 🎤 Discord:https://discord.gg/PkMRVn9 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TechOverTeaShow 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/techovertea/ 🌐 Mastodon:https://mastodon.social/web/accounts/1093345 ==========Credits========== 🎨 Channel Art: All my art has was created by Supercozman https://twitter.com/Supercozman https://www.instagram.com/supercozman_draws/ DISCLOSURE: Wherever possible I use referral links, which means if you click one of the links in this video or description and make a purchase we may receive a small commission or other compensation.

Good morning, good day, and good evening. I'm, as always, your host, Brodie Robertson, and today we have a returning guest. We have Carl Rochelle back on the podcast, who is the CEO of System76, and does many other things related to System76 stuff. Welcome back to the show. How's it going? It's going great. Thanks for having me. It's going great, thanks for having me. So, obviously the main thing that I want to talk about is Cosmic, right? Because that's, like, the Alpha 2 just came out, what, three, four days ago, something like that? Yeah, I think it was September 26th, I believe?

So usually we do Thursday releases, so yeah, i think that was september 26th so the way i understood the press release is going forward there's going to be a new release like every single month because the gap between one and two what was it like 36 days or something weird like that which is like it's a schedule right but like it's hard to really plan around what you're going to do there yeah i think there's quite a few things with that actually so so first we had there was the first alpha release and so a lot more people were getting exposure and seeing what we've been working on and we're also learning through this process because we have downstreams now that's we didn't have before and so we were used to our development cycles

being essentially, do the work that we're doing for Pop! OS, goes into our CI, it goes through our QA checks and through the QA team, and then it gets released to our customers or Pop! OS users. And anything that ends up also being something that's valuable upstream, like Harper support or fixes in GNOME or anything like that,

then goes upstream and goes through their normal cadence. We're used to just shipping software. Right. And it's shipping fast. So from Alpha 1 until Alpha 2, Pop!OS users were getting all the work that we were doing constantly. And then we're starting to get duplicate bug reports and things that we fixed in this project and that project and the other project and different

distributions, whether it's Fedora, Arch, or Nix, our Fedora has a like a daily channel. So, but then they also, of most of these like to prefer to package tagged releases. And so we realized what we needed to do is change to something that was more predictable for them. Something that also was enough of a cadence that we could show a lot of work being done. And so it was you know worthwhile

for them to repackage it and uh but not too long so that uh people were just using you know especially something moving this fast old software right so yeah we decided to go with um monthly releases with uh and we prioritize our work within those releases. So we know what we want to get into Alpha 3, what we want to get into Alpha 4. It's not certain that everything will go into it because we're going to release on the last Thursday of October. So this one's going to be a little longer. It'll be the 31st, I believe.

So we'll release on the last Thursday of each month until all the major features are done. Okay. Because that's um That's one of the things I have noticed that With like some of the reports that we made some of them are being made against the alpha tag Whereas others being made against a git tag if somebody it does want to like get involved with like testing out cosmic Would the preferred method to just be running whatever the gate the latest git release would be or do you think there's still some value in doing it from those

tag releases as well always the latest git release that's just uh what's we've probably we're addressing so many things so quickly uh that's that even we're a week out and we've probably fixed 30 or 40 bugs already. Yeah, there's definitely some things that are like holdovers from prior to Alpha 1. Like my favorite example right now is the fact that vertical monitor screenshots don't work. I love how, for anyone who doesn't know

like how broken they are, I think it's related to the portal. I don't think you can capture vertical monitors properly either but right now if you try to capture a vertical monitor so usually a screenshot tool makes a still frame of the monitor

right now it's rotated so it covers the middle of the screen also half of it is blacked out but this is what I expect vertical monitors are one of those things that so many projects just don't test or just don't test properly well what's interesting is that was actually my call because um because we do have a tester that uses vertical monitors it's a aerator a honey button and uh he reported he reported a long time ago and I said

I don't know I think it's okay for the alpha release. Let's ship, and we'll get to it. And we actually tried getting it in before the alpha 2 release, but the engineer that would be working on that is working on the ICE refactor, which is a really big project and a lot of work. First, you're going to you have to refactor ice into libcosmic and then we have to update all the applets all the apps and everything else there's going to be a lot of benefits that come out of that but it's just a

really big project and so ashley didn't get to uh the the vertical monitor screen screen shot x yet so with the different alpha releases what is sort of the i guess general update cycle like how much are you trying to get into each of these alpha releases obviously there's also going to be bugs that take up time as well but of the features that are intended like the ones you guys know that you want to do before users suggest anything how much are you trying to get into each of these releases uh the way i actually have this outline so i have each each alpha release outlined with the amount that we'd like to achieve um and so like victoria and i talked about what what she'd like to get done in the compositor for october what she'd like to get done how she she'd like to prioritize it. And so that's how we get together. And then, you know, so that's, we just get together and discuss what,

what, you know, the engineer would like to work on, what makes sense for them, what things are grouped together, because these are all DRM or KMS stuff. And so I would like to work on that together. And, and so just from the feedback from the development team, that goes into what we expect to get done within that month. I work with Michael on what settings and how to prioritize the settings. Really what we're looking for with settings is how do we enable more users to use Cosmic in a friendly way. So I really want to get region region settings done in the next, in the next cycle. You know,

things like that, just so that more people have fewer, you know, for your problems, just using it day to day. Right. Right. There's always the,

like the nitpick, like a lot of the issues I have are like the, the nitpicky, like this is like the feel of the desktop, but like core usability that I Think is definitely a lot more important to prioritize first because you can see There's a lot of products out there that are like just you know one-off developers, right? and they prioritize the like the shiny the new the exciting feature and

The core fundamentals are just not there yet and And whilst it might not crash, it's like, okay. But, like, say it's like a file manager, for example. You have a file manager and then, like, you don't have network drives, which is something that Cosmic Files recently got. But you're working on, like, fancy, like, I don't know, tabbing in the file manager, things like that. Like, get the basic stuff actually there. And, like, then you can do the the cool exciting stuff yeah feature creep is the scariest thing to me because it's very we have we have a general attitude that we like we like to say yes when when people have ideas and we

think they're good ideas and uh or there are problems um our our first inclination is not to reject it. Our first inclination is to say, yeah, we'd like to do that. But if we don't have a line that means release, then there will never be a release. And Future Creep just piles things up and you just won't get to that release. piles things up and you just won't get to that release. And the smaller things like the nitpicks, those are the things that I think are really important for the overall feel,

but they're also the things that really actually don't take very long. Sure. Bugs and nitpicks are things that I wanna collect them. The thing that takes the most time with those is just making sure we should be doing them um you have a good i think you and i talked about a good example on github actually is uh uh focus follows mouse yeah yeah and um and how that should work in floating mode um and you know whether there should be a separation between raising a window and whether a window

should be behind. I think these are all great things, important things for us to think through. But when we prioritize and how we get that, I also want to be very careful not to just add toggles. Always be thinking about, okay, what problem are we trying to solve here? Always be thinking about, okay, what problem are we trying to solve here? What's the right approach to solving this problem? Because most of the time, I think the core problem there is in a floating mode, it's too reactive to where your mouse is, to raising the window and distracting. So if that's really what we want to solve, what's the best way to solve that without a user needing to make a decision about

what setting they should be choosing to make it work right for them. So those kind of things. But point being, the big features take more time and more engineering effort. But I've seen, like Ashley was working on panel overflow, for instance, when you have inside the panel a number of applets on start, center, and end. If you're on a smaller screen, sometimes those sections need to overflow because you have a whole bunch of apps open in the app tray or something like that. So she's working on that while we're working towards alpha one. because you have a whole bunch of apps open in the app tray or something like that.

So she's working on that while we're working towards Alpha 1. And that was a really complex feature to build. It took a number of weeks. And meanwhile, I'm piling up a number of, you know, just bugs that I'd like to fix for Alpha 1. And she knocks out, you know, finally knocks out the overflow feature and then two pages of bugs get fixed in like a week so i don't so i'm more concerned about making sure we don't do you know feature creep and getting the features in and then the bugs will be able to knock those

out you raise a good point about the number of toggles and this is a problem that kds had to deal with like towards the end of five into six where they had a lot of toggles and this is a problem that kde's had to deal with like towards the end of five into six where they had a lot of toggles where it was it works it's broken where there's no reason for it to be a toggle it's something that should just be auto detected it's it's something the user shouldn't have control over because there's no reason for them to be able to choose. It doesn't work. And whilst you can't, like, it would be like adding a toggle for every single option that you can have in, like, in your XOR config, where you don't need that to be there. Yes, it's, sure, you can add them.

Like, an engineer, if you let them go and add a bunch of toggles and stuff, they can add a bunch of toggles and stuff. But what value is it actually adding to the user? Or is it just over complicating what you have there just for the sake of adding more things to choose it's really hard to it's really hard not to just add the toggle because that's that is the easiest easy way to say let the user decide but i don't think we realize excuse me how much um how many heuristics are going into our experiences on our phones like there is a lot going on there just so that things work well

on a small screen that are kind of things that i often see as suggestions for new features in cosmic when really it should be it should be us just figuring how to do the right thing. It's harder to do engineering wise perhaps sometimes, or it's well. Another good example of that are applets in the, like for power, Bluetooth notifications and so forth. When you click on one, you can move over to the next one and it will automatically open it for you i did notice that yeah okay so

it's it can be annoying though because when you click on one and you start to move up towards the applet if you cross over the barrier to the next one it'll switch the next one it really shouldn't do that uh should the so there's two routes to take here one it'll switch the next one it really shouldn't do that um should the so there's two routes to take here one route is okay some people really appreciate that so um we need a a toggle that says okay open the next applets whenever I hover over it or require that I click the applet so there's the setting option direction of we're doing it the other direction of doing it is how about we add a timeout or delay before the applet starts when you start on one applet go to the next one so we don't accidentally trigger it now if that's not good enough how about a heuristic for the direction that we're moving to get the correct intent of the user

we're moving to get the correct intent of the user. And then we can, we can make that work well for everyone without requiring the toggle just by thinking about it in that direction instead of, you know, a switch. Okay. No, I see where you're coming from there. The only problem you have there is then it, it, have there is then it you have to then guess what the majority of users are going to think feels good and obviously you can test it and tweak and things like that but i guess trying to guess what the user is doing there adds a lot more complexity to the problem than just adding a toggle and i guess that's why

the toggle can seem like the i guess the better approach to do at least in the short term i just don't think it's actually that hard of a problem to solve and make it work for everyone but that's um uh but and then that's again like determining intent is is uh is that is it harder it is definitely harder but uh but that is what modern operating systems do much more than i think we realize and it's uh a better approach i i like to be able to browse through my menus and see things but i don't know i'm accidentally triggered so i would like to just see it work right i go for that uh you know go that you know go that direction it does take more effort but um that means it's a better product that's fair that's fair so how is cosmic trying to position itself like what what is cosmic trying to be and i guess more importantly what

is cosmic not trying to be uh okay well maybe right now during the early alpha it's hard to tell because you know as you said you're very open to adding a lot of new things so maybe that that vision isn't fully formed yet uh it's it's pretty simple um why we're building cosmic and what we want it to be so um it's cosmic is it stands for computer operating system main interface components so it's a collection of components to build a user experience cosmic is intended to be a platform to build user experiences. Pop OS just happens to be one target. That's it. It's a response to our customers' needs and the things that we've identified. Tiling is a great example because we just had, before we did our initial tiling work in as an extension in Nome. No,

there were just a huge number of people that requested or were using tiling or were using i3 on Pop. And so we were able to it was pretty easy to determine that we just weren't building a product that our customers needed. So then we got in when we made the decision to build Cosmic. It wasn't what we wanted to build Cosmic, it wasn't, what we wanted to build was the ability for anybody to create a user experience. We knew that System76 and Pop!OS users are a unique customer base that has unique needs. Where GNOME targets their users, I think they have identified who they want to build Gnome for, and they build the features and the feature set for that user.

But you can't also use Gnome really to build that experience for our customers. Right. Or there's so much friction that it's just not worth it. I have added a hundred extensions into gnome you can do some weird things to it you shouldn't and it's not very happy about running like this but something built like this from the start you know is obviously gonna give you something a lot nicer to work with if your goal is customization right it's uh it's not meant for that end.

But we felt that there were a lot more people, not just us, that could make use of a platform built for that intent purpose. So whether it's how you can build a Chrome OS experience. If you just want to build something really, really simple that is targeted towards very casual use without a lot of bells and whistles, Cosmic can be put together in a way that delivers precisely that experience. Or you do something as elaborate as what we're trying to build for our users. Or you can do something in the middle. The way that it's architected,

I think its intent is to enable this incredibly creative, capable, amazing open source community to experiment with different devices, with different experiences, with different ways of using a desktop, and just give a platform for people to explore and create. Well, going to the flip side of that, what is Cosmic not trying to do? You've obviously got this goal of having this desktop that you can build around certain experiences, but is there anything that Cosmic is explicitly not trying to venture into that is sort of outside what this desktop really makes sense to do? I haven't really thought about limitations.

I don't think I've really started. I don't typically start there. So I can tell you where we're not going, where I don't think we'll be at the first release. I don't expect to support touch devices very well in the first release. I definitely don't expect the experience on a phone to be incredible, even though i've already seen people

running cosmic on on phones it's exciting um i cosmic isn't built for things that don't have screens how about that sure sure i'll give you that one. No, I think what you mean about mobile makes sense. Like that's a whole nother additional desktop project on top of what you're doing. Obviously, a lot of things can be reused, but designing interfaces that make sense on a mobile device is a very different kind of design. And also the whole touch stuff.

Like if you're going to do touch then you need to start worrying about like on-screen keyboards you need to design touch into like interaction isn't there like basic like gesture support right now so there's at least there's at least that or am i mistaken uh there is um gesture support there's some touch support um uh one of our developers has been working on a Microsoft Surface at the league. And so he's done some work to make touch work. But our engineering team doesn't have a bunch of touch devices.

Our QA team doesn't touch devices. We're just not targeting and putting a lot of effort there. As far as responsiveness down to a mobile device, we've been thinking about that since the early design prototypes because um while we think about it for tiling because we know we want any application to work in that size of a window it also means that it actually does work quite well or it can work quite well on a phone but the things you would change are you would, you know, perhaps you would have, you would have different applets. Essentially you would probably still have a top bar, or maybe you

would put it somewhere else. That's the whole point is getting to experiment with this stuff. But then you would build a different set of applets for that use case. You wouldn't try to retrofit the applets for a desktop into into a mobile experience because then you're just getting i think the lowest common denominator for both right okay okay so there's definitely been some thought about it at least so it's it's it's something that you guys would be interested in exploring like post-release i'm guessing uh i would we'll work on touch after the first release okay um and whether that's um you know laptops or um or tablets or different kind of devices we'll want to improve the experience theories eventually citizen 6 will

have touch laptops and so we want to build a great experience in Cosmic for those hardware products that we're going to be developing. So that'll be a lot of fun, you know, getting, you know, when we start exploring new hardware and form factors and perfecting Cosmic for those. So what has the general reception around Cosmic been like? Because I'm kind of like, I don't know, maybe we're both in biased position because i am in a position where i really like cosmic so people like it they're watching the videos probably like cosmic a lot and you like work for the company that does so we're both in very biased position here but at least from your perspective what what has it been like and what is if there has been like a common issue people have brought up that like, maybe not something that's just very easy to fix. If there's anything there as well, we can talk about that.

Yeah. So, so I read every review. I watch every video, almost every review. There are some that aren't worth reading. almost every review. There are some that aren't worth reading. We can talk about criticism because I think that's kind of an interesting topic when you're building things

and you're a person building things. I'm very pleased with the response to what we've been building. It's better than what I anticipated the day of the alpha. Beforehand, I wrote this thing out for the teams because some of our team have been they've released products before they've been with us and done this with

papa west so you know they've seen what that experience is like others this is a new like yeah pretty big exposure um releasing something like cosmic um it's new and different uh for for some of our team members and i i told them there's going to be some people that absolutely hate it. There's going to be people that love it. There's going to be lots of criticism. And it's our job to take that criticism, make a judgment about whether that criticism helps us add value to our products, or it's something we... It kind of comes in four It comes in four categories, I think. It's criticism that is something that we missed or is a good idea or is helpful to us to think about and prioritize.

Sure. Like desktop Zoom, for example, for accessibility. Absolutely. Yeah. That's just a feature that we don't have that is necessary. Um, there's, uh, there's criticism that is, uh, stuff that you just disagree with. And that's, uh, that's all right. We're building a product.

There's, uh, there's going to be things we disagree with. Uh, I've seen the, what the biggest one I've seen is in the most common one is, uh, window controls on the left. Okay. I use keyboard bindings for everything. I don't even acknowledge where they are. Yeah, it's a, it's a common one. And but having an option to move to the left just completely breaks the application user

experience. And so I just can't see, I can't see doing that one. So we just have to agree to disagree on that. And I hope it doesn't mean it's not the platform for you. But if it is, if that's the case, then that's what we'll be at. Then there's another group that's kind of like you're watching a sausage be made and don't quite. And this is a unique experience even from a user perspective seeing something made this way. And so it's like I filed this bug two years ago

and you still haven't done it. Well, we gotta fix this and build this and build this and build this. I know it's important to you, but it's just that this is part of the process means that that thing that was really important to you wasn't something that we could build yet. And it doesn't mean that it's not good feedback.

It's just, it's just not time for that. And then there's the bad faith feedback and criticism, which with the first three things and how valuable they are and how, how much of it there is, if you're out there and you're creating things, just put your focus on those because there is going to be bad faith feedback and it just has no, in the end, it just doesn't matter to the end project because there's so much feedback from the other sources that are valuable in adding to the project. So I think we've got a mix of all of that throughout the experience of cosmic as we expect and um overall i mean i kind of astonished i seen i i think i saw you

uh with some of your bug reports and somebody say it's okay brody it's an alpha yeah i i saw that like yes i'm aware i'm literally streaming it right now thank you I'm aware I'm literally streaming it right now. Thank you. Yeah. I think, I think that that's, I don't know.

I think it's awfully sweet that people are even, you know, out there to say it's an alpha. It's okay. Like they're still working on it. I think one thing I do want to say there is I, it's, it's not just with cosmic. I've seen this with Katie as well.

There are some people who want to play defense for bugs, like who just, obviously they want them addressed, but they don't want them to be talked about. Like it's, it's this weird, I know, like anytime you have any sort of like,

honestly, anything, anything where you can be on, on something's team, there's always going to be people that don't want like any criticism of the team, even if that criticism is like valuable and all the people working on it agree, like it's valuable criticism. Yeah, you're right.

I think that's it. That's it. There's, it's, but I guess that's why it's, it's, I don't know, so special to me that people even feel the need to, you know, defend just what's legitimate criticism. Bug reports are great. All the people that are testing Cosmic and creating bugs for us. Creating bugs for us?

That's not the users. Yeah, filing bugs for us. It's, I mean, it's a lot to triage and a lot to work through, but it's just making, it's just helping us make a better product. So I really appreciate all the folks that are saying it's an alpha. It's supposed to have bugs because you know what it is. The whole reason for releasing the alpha is to get more exposure

and identify the things that we're doing well and aren't doing well right that's again you can't do it in a vacuum well you could just design it in a vacuum and then release like three years from now and be like here's cosmic and then people test it and they're like the exact same thing happens but now you have a ton more code to sift through because you just didn't go public earlier with it like you know you you could just treat it like you know there's no alpha there's no beta maybe there's internal one but you don't do a public release for it and then you're just like here's 1.0 enjoy and you just don't get that that feedback and you're just pushing the feedback

to a later point at that, like doing that. Well, what's fascinating about Sysmos 86 is that's essentially how hardware works. Right, right. We, hardware is a totally different animal and like building Thaleo and building Lush keyboards or all the, in the laptop products that we develop, they are, we ship 1.0 and there's never feedback before that. It's a very different process. Hardware is very, is much more challenging in that way.

But, and you can't update it after you've shipped it either. So you really have to kind of approach it with a completely different mindset. But that's also one of the reasons we took on manufacturing in the way that we did. It wasn't so that we could ship buggy stuff. It was so that we could respond more quickly and continuously improve hardware in the way that we're doing software,

even though we can't replace it in the field. Yeah, there's no point designing a software with the same limitations as the hardware. You might as well take advantage of the software benefits and actually more iteratively design upon it and and hopefully hopefully in the long run ship something better yeah i i think um i think we chose a pretty good place for the alpha release because from what i've seen a lot of people are able to daily drive it um there were some there were some early bugs that were uh early bugs that we needed to address, but we're able

to address those. And I think it's already fun technology to use. And as a geek that loves technology and loves just tinkering with stuff, I think that's where it was. It was at that time for the folks like us that just love tinkering with technology, it was there and ready to dive into. I was genuinely surprised with how few crashes I found. The only crash I managed to do was from some weird combination of the screenshotting tool. If you did a selection capture and you didn't make a selection, it created a garbled screenshot.

And then dumping that into GIMP, that would kill the entire desktop. Like, that's not a setup that most people are going to try to do. I just- I- I noticed it happened once and I had to try and replicate it. But besides that, I don't think I've actually found a way to crash- I'm sure there are crash bugs, don't get me wrong, and I'm sure that you guys have had to deal with some of them, but there was nothing... at least on my hardware like immediately obviously you know you didn't close a window and then things just randomly died or you open too many windows things randomly die things like that yeah um the the crashes or they were hard like we found a bug where you could crash the panel

and applets should never crash the panel but we figured out why that was happening recently. But these problems were like a crash was hard to find. It wasn't something simple. But I've been daily driving Cosmo for two years now. So I've seen the evolution from the days when it was very, very difficult to use. But my tolerance is also really high. I don't need much.

If I can launch an application and I can close it. What's interesting, too, is for a while I was using Cosmic just in floating mode, which for me was really painful because I'm so used to tiling that I was using, you know, everything was floating, dragging windows around again, but just to try to, you know, identify things that were different because we were trying to reproduce our tiling experience on our floating experience. So we just needed more people using it that way. Now, as I'm seeing bugs come in, I'm starting to realize, realize, maybe I have to use floating mode again. Maybe there's some things I'm just not seeing because so many of us, like all the engineers use tiling.

I don't know anyone on the team that uses floating mode. And so we just, that's another reason for the alpha and why it's helpful. Because there are people that are using it that way just identify things that we um we aren't seeing um you know while we're in this heavy development mode like the qa team at the same time right now they're writing all of documents for all the projects so that every eventually once we get to the beta the qa team has checklists that they'll go through for every project. Uh, and that's when we'll start hitting things with floating mode, but we really need to start identifying more, I think today's right, unfortunately I might have to get you to take that again.

Yeah, I did see you comment on one of the issues I made where there was like fake mouse events happen. I, I haven't had a chance to probably test it yet, but, um, for anyone who hadn't seen my, my stream on cosmic, there was an issue where if you dragged a window sometimes it would, I think, not do the mouse up event or something like that. I'm not entirely sure what the internal condition was, but even though you weren't pressing anything it would think your mouse is down and you would like be highlighting stuff for no reason. But it wasn't consistent, which was weird to me.

Like, that's what really threw me off with that one. Or, like, there's one where focus wasn't swapping between monitors, but it wasn't consistent. And the ones that are not consistent, those are the ones that really annoy me. Because when I report a bug, I really like to have, like, clean replication conditions if I can, because I know how much easier it makes it if if that is there if it is something where it's like oh it happens like 20 of the time

like okay that's that's good but it makes it a lot more annoying to know if it's fixed it's one thing if the engineer can repeat it but if they haven't got a consistent way to do it you might think you've fixed it but you actually haven't done so yet. Yeah, and it only makes sense for us to prioritize bugs based on how reproducible they are. Because if we can just reproduce it, then we can track it down and solve it. If it takes a long time or it's real finicky to reproduce, it's, well, one, it's less likely to hit users.

It's just going, it just can't have the same kind of priority because it shouldn't and because it's hard to reproduce. I think I remember, I remember that one you're talking about where I think if you highlighted text inside of a terminal, it would just pop up a window

from below the terminal at some point. Yeah, yeah, something like that, yeah. But I think that that one was fixed because that was really driving me crazy because it was server-side decorations was one of the easier ways to reproduce it because when you clicked on one, it would just grab the window and pull it out. I say pull it out, but that's because of tiling. But, yeah, I think that one was fixed.

I was hoping that because the SSD grabs I was hoping it was the same thing as the SSD grabs but yeah I'll have to have a look at that one hopefully it's fixed that'll be good yeah there's a lot of those there's some core things that Victoria is working on Victoria works on Cosmic Comp

and some of those are clicks and layers like which layer you're on and what gets the click. And so we have some problems that are, we get a lot of different bugs in different places because of one core issue that needs to be refactored. And refactoring that in the compositor should knock out a whole bunch of bugs across the desktop at least that's the hope and that one might even be related to that too if it's if it's two different bugs yeah that's that's the nice thing about you know having a toolkit where you know sometimes bugs just happen across things and you know you might get a bug report on

files and terminal turns out they're actually the exact same bug but maybe they are like producing in a slightly different way based on what the application is trying to be yeah and there's um that's a lot of our right to left texts bugs are uh are really gonna be grouped together and kind of knocked out at once i think for the most part just with our ice refactor and some layout things so uh menus uh menus currently can't overlap outside of the window bounds which is really interesting okay um and so um but uh that's also going to be fixed in one place. And then once the apps have a new libcosmic,

then it's fixed everywhere. So yeah, that is, there is, and of course is important and valuable for your app ecosystem that when you're using a library libcosmic, it's a nice thing about libodueta as well. From that that you can you know adapt the desktop without redoing everything in every application yeah this is a this is an issue that katie is trying to resolve themselves because they've got

like five different ways they design applications and they're trying to like make a united like united um system to address all of this because you're not going to redesign those applications. There is just so much of their desktop. I think the desktop itself is done a lot of that in SVG and then there's other things in Qt Quick and there's other things in another library, another thing in another library. And once you've put yourself in that situation,

digging yourself out of that takes a lot of effort and and just making sure you don't get yourself into that position from the start is probably the better way to do it yeah i'm excited to hear that for kde because one of my goals what i would love to see is the is kde apps look really great on cosmic cosmic apps look great on kde and you know that kind of effort i think would help help that along so we've done some work um applying our theming to kd applications and um just hasn't worked as smoothly as as it does for liberty applications so i that sounds like that would be something that would help that effort quite a bit.

I really want Linux applications to look great no matter which desktop you're on. That would be nice. I think that's better for our app ecosystem, better for user choice. So I think that's a worthy goal for all of us. One thing I've talked about on my channel a bit is that Cosmic

is in a very different position than something like, both GNOME and KDE were when they started, because they both started in the very early days of Linux. Like, I think they both started mid to late 90s. There were CDE back then, like, desktops existed,

but what we know about designing desktop environments today is very existed but what we know about designing desktop environments today is very different than what we knew back then so cosmic is in this position where it doesn't have to repeat those same mistakes that those desktops had made 20 30 years ago it can learn from those and design a desktop that is you know already addressing those use cases for its users today? Yeah, I think there's something to not having legacy baggage that does help a project. I don't know how much it deters. I know there are some strange bugs come about because of legacy things.

I saw the one about the launcher or the app launcher. My gosh. Bizarre. But they have the.desktop file, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how they're done with shortcuts or something along those lines. So I don't know how much it holds those projects back,

because they also seem to really move at a, you know, a good pace and be able to, you know, to make progress. Maybe we're so close to Wayland, just being, you know, the de facto standard now that, that there's, there's a lot of crufts and old decisions that can kind of be taken out. and old decisions that can kind of be taken out. So I think it is definitely a benefit, and some of ours is just lucky timing between Wayland and where it was and where NVIDIA got with their drivers.

Those are things that were kind of outside of our control in a lot of ways. But we just had lucky timing that we could build a new desktop and our customers weren't going to sacrifice. Like, POP 2204 is on X11 for a reason, and that's just 2022. We couldn't go to Weyland in 2022. Half of the computers we shipped wouldn't work. That's not the case just two years later. So some things were just luck. Right now with Weyland, what is still sort of out of your control? Or obviously, you know, you have Victoria getting involved in upstream Weyland, what is still sort of out of your control? Or obviously, you know, you have Victoria getting involved

in upstream Weyland discussion, so it's not entirely out of your control, but what is something in Weyland right now that is holding Cosmic back that you guys want to do? It's just a matter of getting that discussion resolved upstream. Gosh, I know that there are one or two that we would like to see the protocols we'd like to see merged.

I just don't remember the details, but yeah. Yeah, I can't recall, but I don't think that we feel like they're too much of a, I think they're even those that aren't merged yet are close enough that we feel like we could still um implement them and um and and be okay if some changes need to if we need to make some changes um because the final you know the final merge is a bit different so um i don't think we're in a very i think we're in a pretty good place so i think waylon i know that there's been efforts to kind of change the processes around.

That's a love way to put it. Yeah, Valve fans coming in like, no, we're going to fix this now. Enjoy. I think faster is better. And I think maybe whacking the hornet's nest a little bit to try to make some change might create some good decisions or good discussions that result in better processes for everyone.

What can happen in a project is it's really easy to kind of get stuck in the path that has worked before. And it's hard to get outside of that and just right and think should we should we just rethink what we're doing in entirely because it's um it's just really easy to get into a into a process rut it happens companies like it happens in system 76 and we have to really force ourselves to think outside of what we've been used to doing and so i don't i think that's just pretty standard for any project um

and sometimes you just need something from the outside to shake things up a little bit yeah yeah yeah definitely uh definitely definitely shake things up um that i i think overall the people involved in whalen did initially there was a lot of people who were like you know very skeptical about it but it seems like as it's shaken out over the past couple of days people have appreciated the change because it seems like a lot of people were aware of the issue and acknowledge the issue but no one was saying the issue like right like i i've i've mentioned to myself, I'm not involved in Weyland Protocol discussion. So it's like, there's less value for someone who is outside of that.

But it seems like everybody basically agreed with my position that there is a problem here. It needs to be addressed. But nobody wanted to step up to, I guess, take the heat that was going to come from the people who didn't think there would need to be something to address there? Yeah Yeah, what is it called? Frog Protocols? Yeah, that was the first one and then following that there is four separate merger- three? Three or four separate merge requests by Mike Blumenkranz, also a contractor at Valve

Basically restructuring a lot of governance stuff as well so there's the combination of those two frogs started it and then it led into those discussions as well great i think i have a combination like 300 comments right now well i think it's important to just assume good faith in all these things. And I can understand how difficult it is to just see yourself from the outside. Sure, yeah. I can fully appreciate it. We have processes at SimSony 6

that we've been doing for a long time that, well, one example is imaging. So we image, so we build what we call a golden image and that image is used to put the operating system on hardware. We were moving to a new ERP system and the first instinct was to completely reproduce the process that we had before. So that meant the imaging system did a lot of things like um took in the serial number took in the tracking number to move that from one place to

another did you know did all these things and so there was engineering time and effort put into uh you know reproducing the experience that what we've done before well our imaging systems were just as complex and didn't work as well. And we couldn't do exactly what they want to do because the ERP system is different. So after we all just finally took a step back, we said, okay, the right thing to do is for the imaging system just to be an imaging system. We shouldn't do any of this other stuff. Let's make the ERP do these things that the imaging system had done before. So the serial number can be, we can change some processes on

the line. And instead of all of our custom software and maintaining that forever, we can just, we're paying for this ERP system. Let's have it to it. So there's my Wayland protocols sympathy. If you've been part of a process for a long time, it's just the most natural thing to continue that process. But it's it's good and helpful and healthy to have someone on the outside know, say, no, this is nuts. I think about this for Ubuntu's SRU process sometimes. Like this, this process,

this process been around for 20 years? Is this really the right process for updates to shipping software? Maybe it should be something different because there are these other benefits. But it just means, you know, saying, and I think there've been some changes recently with that too,

but it's hard to, you know, you know to shake yourself out of the rut you mentioned releases there and that's actually a great segue um what is the plan for the next pop release and cosmic is the plan to just ship cosmic or what what is what is happening here so pop 22 24 or 4 will be that's the next release for Papa West it'll ship with cosmic and pop 22 or 4 customers or users will be able to upgrade from 22 or 4 to 24 or 4 the upgrades are actually we're going to enable those upgrades underneath the development flag. So only users that, we're not going to spread this very wide because it's not quite ready. It's just for users that really, really want to try 20.04.4, don't mind being on an alpha release to upgrade.

But some of the applications that we replaced in cosmic will replace the applications that were there in gnome like nautilus by cosmic files and um uh pop shop by cosmic store and so forth yeah so that's the uh that's the plan uh it means there's been a big gap since we've had pop os, but we're getting there and we're getting close. So hopefully it's not too much longer and we'll be shipping a new 24.04 version with Cosmic. On 24.04, how are the Cosmic updates going to work? Is it going to be when there's a new tagged release you just update to that or what are you going to do there? In Pop!OS, it'll follow our same CI cadence that we've used before. So we just use continuous integration with a staging. QA hates it when I call it staging, but I call it staging.

It's the staging repo. And so everything goes into the staging repo. Today, what happens in Cosmic is because it's an alpha release, and if you're on 24.04 or 24.04 or 22.04 for that matter, we do daily releases of what's ever in staging. After 24.04 is released, then the staging release has to go through the manual QA checklist for each release. And once they've signed off on it then it goes into into popwise okay

then but we also understand and that's part of the reason we started switching to monthly because we understand that our upstreams will handle this in a different way and so the plan is to have um an ups a tags bug fix release monthly after the initial Cosmic release. And then to take feedback from maintainers and the folks at Fedora and Arch and Nix OS or Nix and just refine our process. That's one thing that's been really encouraging. I didn't expect other distributions to package Cosmic as quickly as they have. Yeah, I think Arch had a package

basically immediately. I'm not sure about Fedora. I know that there's a Fedora guy over there who's very interested in Cosmic. But everyone, most of the distros seem to have a package at this point. Yeah, it's been really encouraging.

And what's great about that is by the time we get to our final release, we're going to have lots of practice working with all the different distributions, what things matter to them, what kind of cadence is going to work well. And we had one recently with Arch where a packaging bug caused Cosmic Creator to break, and users couldn't log in. And now, I think both from the maintainer side and from our side, we've learned from that. And so through these alphas, we'll

get to the point where I think we'll be delivering a really good product across the board and hopefully good bug fixes, big bug fix releases. So I think I feel, I feel pretty confident with where we're at today, but still a lot to learn. We've had two releases. We'll see. As always, I am correct for logging in from the TTY and having a shell script that just

runs start Cosmic. Cosmic Grids are so pretty, though. Oh, no, it is. Definitely is. I've just never been a Greeter fan. I don't really lock my system either. Like, if I had a laptop, obviously that would make more sense. But my desktop system, I'm the only one here.

It doesn't really matter for me to lock it. So even that part of it isn't really relevant to me. I think I have the package installed. I just don't have it running. There's so much. Greeter gets so much deeper because you've got things like uh we have energy star compliance requirements so the the system has to lock and it has and the screen has to go to sleep within 15 minutes and so there you know there's and then there's accessibility how does a user

determine where they're at inside of the greeter and how well does Orca work in the greeter and then how does that move into the desktop so it's a pretty critical part of the whole experience in the end Accessibility is a very complex topic in the end. Like obviously there are the,

the maybe not super simple, but like the, the simpler things like, Hey, desktop zoom. Like that, that's, that's a relatively of the things you can deal with a relatively self-contained

easier issue to deal with when it comes to orca integration where we're still in a position where a lot of applications under wayland are not necessarily in a position for that to work nicely dealing with this to a point where it's ready for a product is i imagine quite difficult to sort of balance, I guess. Yeah, when we had our Alpha 1 press call, we said accessibility is the biggest question mark. We don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes and we're not certain yet.

Six weeks later, I feel confident that we're going to have good accessibility at the first release. We have a patched AT Spy package that's working. One of the challenges is capturing keys, especially with Wayland, because Wayland is designed explicitly not to allow that. But I think we have a solution that's going, that works well, it's working well with Cosmic, but also going to be something that Upstream can use to improve accessibility and screen

readers on their Wayland desktop. So we hope this work is useful for the broader Linux ecosystem. But accessibility is really fascinating because to me, I think it's a much, much broader than what we think of accessibility. Like the users are much broader than we think of. Desktop Zoom is probably a perfect example for you because just in making videos, you want to be able to Zoom on a subject that you're talking about um well i i know someone who also he runs he's legally blind he runs his system probably close to like 1600 2000 zoom something

in that range where he needs it to be zoom like that otherwise he is not able to read the text right that's um and so we we just had a number of interviews. We asked people on on social media to reach out to us and we had a great response to it and this this was from legally blind to some vision impairment or vision or or less than less than full vision and it's some things like one of the things I really like about Wayland is scaling per monitor. And I know there's resistance to fractional scaling. And, you know, but when we think about it, and when I think about fractional scaling, I used to think about it like, you know, getting the right DPI so that my screen looks like things are on the screen or the right size.

the right dpi so that my screen looks like it's the things on the screen are the right size so i want to get uh you know system 76 we choose displays based on not needing uh fractional scaling but what we've learned in the process of building cosmic is fractional scaling is just an accessibility feature that has to work really well because even i I imagine me in 15 years I'm going to be scaling at 125 or 150 percent and on you know further down the spectrum there are we we've interviewed interviewed users that do zoom almost to a character on a screen and move from character to character and that's how they they need to use that screen or use how they the only way to use the computer so it's our objective whether it's our hardware or cosmic that's in using this product someone that's that's legally blind or someone with low vision doesn't have to ask someone else for help. That's the goal.

I think we're going to get pretty far to start with, but eventually I think we can really want to get there all the way so it's just not necessary to get someone's help. But my scaling itself, I think scaling is an interesting one because I think that covers this huge swath of people. And fractional scaling is a huge swath of people where just at the very beginning of an experience, you need to help users scale their desktops to probably to a pretty big size. And then desktop Zoom takes over from that point.

So we've learned a lot just in the last few weeks with the interviews we've done, and it's going to inform the design that's taking place now. So I think we'll be able to show off some of these features, at least in the next alpha. And then almost all of them by the, well, the fourth alpha, which will be end of November. Well, another another i say like

none of these problems are easy but again on the scale of difficulty easy easier issue is like a high contrast modes as well where obviously you can theme cosmic yourself but for people that actually like need that to use a system there there should be something preferably there, like out of the box that someone can just very easily go to. Right. Yeah. So, um, and I was recently creating an issue for this too, because, um, because it's interesting to think through, so we need a high contrast theme. That's not very difficult. Um, it needs to be available through, um, accessibility options through or accessibility settings page through an accessibilities applet. But then what happens on the appearance page?

Because now you're applying a theme, the appearance page changes, but you're setting something someplace else. So I think that's something for us to think through, but simple things are maybe that high contrast theme toggle should be on the appearance page because when you toggle it off now, all of the colors come back or you're back to the original default. So just things like that.

One that I thought would be complex, but Victoria tells me is easy is color inversion. Apparently that's a really easy thing to do in the compositor. And so, so she's working on that this month and said, you know, I hope to have a color inversion option in accessibility for the next release or for the next alpha. I, I would have assumed, i don't know how colors and math work so that's not something i would know what to do with but if it's easy hey awesome yeah that's sometimes i'm surprised by the things i i'll request something and it's shockingly hard and

i and to me it looks really simple or conceptually it seems really simple and then uh and then someone will mention something and i think oh this is going to be expensive and uh victoria or jeremy or somebody says oh no that's like that's easy so yeah my it's it's a pleasure to work with experts that really really know all this stuff there's definitely some stuff that i've suggested and they'll be like all this stuff there's definitely been some stuff that i've suggested and they'd be like yeah that i this is already a thing for them the code used to be make a toggle for it like they'd already gone ahead and known that someone was going to want it anyway and maybe they wanted it but they just hadn't like there was no interface to use it yeah yeah there's a there's quite a bit of that. Yeah, it's interesting.

It's interesting what the engineers put in for later. I think quite a few of those myself. And some of it is also are just, I've also seen plenty of reports where folks are, well, maybe created a a pr for a feature that they really like and it's something that we're concerned about exposing as a feature because we don't want to just overload overload settings and um but we'll put it in a config flag so you can you can still have that feature in um in a config flag so you can still have that feature in a config file.

Right. And that's one of the ideas behind Cosmic as well is that if we're going to enable people to do everything or do a lot of different things that they want to do with it, it means that we have to be really receptive to features and options. But it doesn't mean that we need to overload all users with an abundance of features because you can take this, you can build the product that you want with it. You can adapt the settings pages for what you think is going to be best for your users and carry on. And we can all do so together on one platform. Yeah. I think when it comes to having the, the like text-based settings, the config files,

people who are willing to dig into configs are a lot more open to having just a wall of text, explain like some sort of wiki that explains like what each of these features do. Whereas if you're building a nice GUI, you know, you have a lot more concern there when it comes to making sure things are laid out in a sensible way that doesn't overload people. Yeah. We should be able to hand one of our

laptops to any user. And for the most part, they don't need to go into settings. And when they do go into settings, it's very easy to find what they're looking for. when they do go into settings, it's very easy to find what they're looking for. And then, but I also want to cater to the other side, the folks like me and the folks like a lot of our customers that enjoy going through settings and tinkering with things. Right. But then there is, I used to configure,

I used to run Sway on three different computers and I had a lot of fun doing it. It was awesome, but I also just don't wanna do that. Right, right. That's, I love the feature set and the capabilities, but I love going into the appearance page and creating a new theme because it's fall now or whatever it is and not going through and putting

hex values in in my config file uh and then syncing it with my dot files on github and then across my other desktops and all those things i don't mind easy mode i think that's what kind of computers are for so things should feel easy to use but it cosmic shouldn't be at a point where it feels like cosmic tweaks is a requirement yeah um and i don't mind the idea of a tweak staff either there is a cosmic tweak sound and i didn't realize someone made one already that was a joke but there is a cosmic tweak zap but if you compare like gnome tweaks and cosmic tweaks app but if you compare like gnome tweaks and cosmic tweaks there's like you know 75 settings and there's like two right and uh and those two i think one of them is the padding on the dock uh which is a bug but when it's in so so we're gonna we're gonna you know fix that of course uh but yeah it it shouldn't feel uh it shouldn't feel necessary because we can do this in a way that the information hierarchy doesn't feel overwhelming.

Or the information hierarchy makes the number of settings not feel overwhelming. That makes sense. That makes sense. So let's imagine a little bit in the future, the alpha is done. How long are you guys hoping to be an alpha for obviously things might go longer you might realize there's additional things that that need to be done but how long do you hope to be an alpha for when should we expect a beta and once beta happens like what is what maybe this one's easy to answer when you're in beta

what's the release cycle supposed to look like then right uh so so we have the the project outlined and if i'm being honest with myself which i really don't like i think we have alpha 3 in october alpha four in November, and probably alpha five in December. As much as I would love to try to knock out both of those in two months, I think. And that fifth alpha would probably be a lot of bug fixing too. So features and bug fixing, which would put our beta in January. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So features and bug fixing, which would put our beta in January. And the beta attracts a far, far wider audience of users. So I would suspect at that point,

I hope that we've been able to do enough, had enough testing and enough interesting and weird scenarios. People have found that at that point, the beta is going to be no more than a month. So after the beta, and when I say these months, these are like end of month things. So it would be like the end of December would be alpha five, end of January would be alpha,

would be beta one. And then end of February would be a release candidate, which is essentially wrapping everything up and creating ISOs that we would then build our images out of. It's just the final checks before release. And that's maybe a week or two, and then you have final release. So it would be late February, early March.

And I think that's pretty conservative. Okay. I know timelines are always very difficult we'll see where we are towards the end of the year whether that ends up coming to fruition I don't expect it to be a GIMP 3

situation where GIMP 3 I think they're in RC1 they're in RC1 now They're in RC1 now, so it's going to happen. But yeah. We are very into the importance of releasing this enormous

that we're going to ship this product to hundreds of thousands of SimSync 6 customers using it on their computer. It has to be really, really good because these are paying customers that we're going to drop a new desktop on them. We're going to be very careful about our messaging and make sure they know that they're upgrading to a new desktop environment. Some of those customers are, they buy a computer and they're off doing their thing.

They're not part of this, you know, they might not even know Cosmic exists today. And they're going to get an upgrade notice in POP 2204 about a new about the 2404 release. So so we we do have to make sure this is a final product when that time comes um but I think there's also you can kind of see our cadence now um we have because so much of the foundations has been built with those six weeks um there are a lot of features knocked out just just six weeks I think we just speed up more um community contributions with the alpha that's another benefit um it was a community contribution to finish the bluetooth page for instance um community concert a contributor the same person is working on the users page so now there are more people that are just helping us build this free desktop so i think the cadence

only kind of snowballs it gets faster as we get closer and closer to release. I know that you said you couldn't do much over an hour. I don't know how good you are for time. Yeah, I'm pretty close. Is there anything else you want to make sure we chat about? We can definitely keep talking for another hour. But besides that um i think we've pretty much hit on the main things uh the main things i want to talk about i'm

honestly surprised you gave me any sort of release timeline for cosmic i didn't expect to get like a clear answer for that usually uh people are like very wary about doing that um yeah no i think it's one of the main things i think about that every day i think about cosmic's release date every single day i look at that outline i look at the bugs um so it's yeah it's very much on my mind um i was hoping to do i was hoping we would make it this year but when i look at it it's just it's going to be too tight right right and you don't want to release it early like it is as you said it's a product you want to get something actually ready yeah yeah and uh it's uh it's going to it's going to people that rely on the computers every day for the work they're doing it's uh it's a we're responsible for that experience if we destroy their day um we have

not done we have done a bad job so um so yeah there's a lot of care and effort that's going to go into deciding when we can when we can call it good um but we just have to make sure we don't have feature creep between now and then that's the only thing that could throw it off if we just have to make sure we don't have feature creep between now and then. That's the only thing that could throw it off. If we just, if we keep saying yes, it's going to, it's going to blow up. So you just have to be careful with that. So let people know where they can find Cosmic, where they can find System76's stuff. And if they want to get involved in the project and help out make issues and prs where they can go for all that stuff um it's system76.com slash cosmic um that's got the isos for download instructions for all the different distributions it has a list of the settings pages that still

need to be done so if uh if you're interested in contributing that's a great way to help. On GitHub, it's slash pop dash OS. And if you search in the repositories for Cosmic, you'll find there's like 25 repositories or so where all the different work is. Let's see. What else? In the next couple of weeks, hope to publish the the project outline okay I think that would be pretty cool for the community to see it's I think we're from from this point we can say this is everything we need to do to finish this

product and notwithstanding you know the the bugs that are going to come in to be fixed so I think by publishing that that's also going to give people more opportunities to identify things they might find interesting and want to work on to help us get there. So I hope to have that for everybody in the next couple of weeks too. Awesome. If they want to buy a system 76 laptop, what's the link for that? System76.com and,STEM76 is everything. SYSTEM76, if you're into what we're doing with Cosmic,

you're into what we're building, the best way to support us is to get a great computer. We build great stuff, great hardware. So if you're in the market for a computer, please consider us first. If you don't want a computer, please consider us first. If you don't want a computer, they also have cases. They sell the cases they have, so you can buy one of those as well.

And Launch Keyboard is a fantastic keyboard. Oh, yeah, yeah. Look at that. Its layout is specifically designed to work well with Cosmic. There's actually differences in the way it's laid out that make it more efficient when you're in the Cosmic desktop. It's pretty cool. We need to do a video about that. I think it's never really gotten through

how the hardware is designed to work better with the Cosmic UX. That would be definitely interesting. I would definitely like to hear that. Is that everything you want to mention? I think that's it. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Okay. My main channel is Brody Robertson. I do Linux videos there six-ish days a week. I've got the gaming channel BrodyOnGames. I am now a Twitch affiliate, so I now have Twitch points. So if you just watch the stream, you get magic internet points.

They don't do anything, but you can get them. I've got the React channel Bro Brody Robertson Reacts. I just post stream clips there. And if you're listening to the audio version of this, you can find the video version on YouTube at Tech Over Tea. If you want to find the audio release, it is on basically every podcast platform. There is an RSS feed.

Put it into your favorite app and enjoy. I'll give you the final word. What do you want to say? Oh, gosh i'll give you the final word what do you want to say oh gosh i get the final you were here already you knew this was maybe you just forgot i don't know and i think most of all oh i think linux is an is an open I think, is an incredibly special technology and important for everyone. The computer is the most versatile and powerful thing we've ever created. Cosmic is just this one more piece, I think the next layer to help this community build things with. So I hope you take that and don't consider it

a Systems Learning Success thing or a Pop!OS thing. It is a platform for you to make things with. So go out there and make things. Yeah, that's a good message. Wait.