Tech Over Tea - Learning To Program Is Easier Than Ever | The Evil Skeleton

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

If you've ever wanted to learn to program and be a developer now is the easiest time it's ever been, there are so many incredible resources available and great platforms to use that if you want to try it out I absolutely think you should ==========Guest Links========== Blog: https://theevilskeleton.gitlab.io/blog Github: https://github.com/TheEvilSkeleton Gitlab: https://gitlab.com/TheEvilSkeleton Mastodon: https://fosstodon.org/@TheEvilSkeleton ==========Support The Show========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson =========Video Platforms========== 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBq5p-xOla8xhnrbhu8AIAg =========Audio Release========= 🎵 RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/149fd51c/podcast/rss 🎵 Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tech-over-tea/id1501727953 🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IfFpfzlLo7OPsEnl4gbdM 🎵 Google Podcast: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xNDlmZDUxYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== 🎵 Anchor: https://anchor.fm/tech-over-tea ==========Social Media========== 🎤 Discord:https://discord.gg/PkMRVn9 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TechOverTeaShow 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/techovertea/ 🌐 Mastodon:https://mastodon.social/web/accounts/1093345 ==========Credits========== 🎨 Channel Art: All my art has was created by Supercozman https://twitter.com/Supercozman https://www.instagram.com/supercozman_draws/ DISCLOSURE: Wherever possible I use referral links, which means if you click one of the links in this video or description and make a purchase we may receive a small commission or other compensation.

Good morning, good day, and good evening. Welcome to episode 141 of Tech Over Tea, and today we have a returning guest. I thought my overlay was broken again, but it's not, I'm just seeing things. Welcome back to the show, The Evil Skeleton. How is it going? I'm doing well, and you? Yeah, not too bad. So, you were the one who asked, who sent a message to me, like, hey, you know, I'd be up to come back onto the podcast.

And you were saying just before that you had nothing in particular you wanted to talk about. Oh, yeah, that's because you, I guess at the end of the last, before you said that, like, you'd like to have me again. So, I just figured I should ask.

Yeah, just come back on, nothing to talk about, just wig it, see what happens, I guess. Yeah, and if I remember right, you had some questions to ask as well last time that you didn't? I don't know, I might be wrong. I might have. I deleted what I had there last time. Let's see what...

Let's go all the way back to my history and see what it says here. I don't remember what I said. Anyway anyway i've got things written down now and luckily uh you know things are actually kind of happening in the foss space right now so you know there's still things to talk about and there's you know things outside of the foss space like you know elon finally buying twitter which i'm really surprised actually happened me as well but um i don't know if you saw this this happened like yesterday but sourcehut made an update to the way they're handling uh cryptocurrency yeah i saw it's amazing i completely agree with what they did. So for anyone who hasn't heard about

this yet, Sourceheart decided to update their TOS and for the most part are removing crypto projects. I completely agree with that. You agree with this? Yeah, 100%. What's your problem I completely agree with that you agree with this yeah 100%

what's your problem with crypto why don't you like this well it's the article explains it well it's mostly more more of a I guess advertisement or yeah

I'm trying to make it look appealing when it's not really a good, a good project. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Um, Sort of just using crypto as like a, a way to make the project sound exciting, but if the project didn't have crypto in it, it just would be,

it'd be a nothing burger. Yeah, exactly. That's why I completely agree with the, uh, the, uh with the update. So, SourceHut is planning to roll out updates to our TOS effective in 2023. The changes most likely to impact users is the prohibition of cryptocurrency or blockchain-related projects on SourceHut. These domains are strongly associated with fraudulent activities and high-risk investments, which take advantage of people who are suffering from economic hardship and growing global wealth inequality.

Few to no legitimate use cases for this technology have been found. Instead, it is mostly used for fraudulent get-rich-quick schemes and to facilitate criminal activity such as ransomware, illicit trade and sanctions evasion. These projects often encourage large-scale energy waste and electronics waste, which contributes to the declining health of Earth's environment. The presence of these projects on SourceHut exposes new victims to these scams and is harmful to the reputation of SourceHut and its community. Jesus Christ Drew, I've not read this yet. i just saw this happen before i went to bed last night

um if you continue reading it gets it gets progressively worse like they even explain to some of the people they ban uh i don't know if it's like yeah uh you might want if you if you have free time later on you can can try to read the rest, like the threatening and harassing others part. Wait, threatening and harassing... If you scroll down. Yeah, yeah, I see it now. We've expanded the list of prohibited behaviors

to include threatening and harassing others. We've already banned users for this behavior. We can terminate service at our discretion. But we decided to make this explicit. The scope of this is intended to cover incidents where users harass others or make bigoted, racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. comments on our platform. We take account termination seriously and use it only as a last resort. In the history of SourceHut, only two users have been banned. The first user was harassing, maintained, and failed to respond to emails,

seeking to discuss their behavior. The second user... Jesus, I'm not reading that one. Yeah, that's why I said try to read it in your free time, because it gets worse. Yeah, I see that. You know, I agree with all of these changes. Me as well. That's why I i was like that is an amazing change and actually found that from your twitter uh your twitter post yeah i i read like the first

you know two paragraphs that's about as far as i got through it um jesus there's too much stuff happening this week like we've got this, we've got a couple of days ago, uh, Gnome shutting down their mailing list finally. And just like, you know, fun stuff's going on.

Yeah. I, I don't know. The crypto thing is a weird one. So I, I do definitely agree that most of the use cases out there basically aren't use cases it's like hey it's sort of like the early days of the internet where you form a company and it's companyname.com the company has like no value to it it's not really producing any product that

anyone cares about it just has this thing attached to it and Therefore the value is extremely inflated But Drew does say somewhere in here that he is willing to make exceptions if your use case actually has like some legitimate purpose to it, so he's not entirely against crypto as a like as a concept it's more like as the vast majority of these projects don't really have any value you might as well just throw everything out and deal with the exceptions as they come basically

deal with the exceptions as they come basically yeah and I completely agree because some projects may add some value and I respect that he's willing to make exceptions for that well we're still in the very early days of this tech anyway so

even if a lot of the use cases now don't really make that much sense it's a possibility that someone works something out into the future. Hopefully not a big, massive company who is going to make a monopoly out of it. Well, that's probably what's going to happen. Look, we know how this stuff goes.

Like, Google's going to do something. Amazon's going gonna do something Amazon's gonna do something maybe not Meta because Meta might not exist in a couple of years yeah the only thing that Meta still is going for is the fact that they're such a by far the biggest social media platform

even though people are like I'm leaving Facebook, Facebook's bad it still has the most users out of all of the platforms. I think it still has more users than YouTube does. So, uh... That I'm not sure. But still, it is still a massive platform. Yeah. So even

though, you know, Zuckerberg is burning money with the metaverse that has 34 active users, um... The company's still afloat somehow but their stock prices are kind of tanking which i'm happy to see yeah hopefully facebook open source doesn't die though i think that's a really nice uh i guess department we can say they did a lot of work to butterfs and i fully respect them for that especially uh the z standard algorithm this it's amazing well yeah sorry they also made react the uh the web

framework which yeah people can argue about whether sorry all right yeah i was just saying that i don't know much about it but I know that it has a really good rating yeah people can argue about whether React is the best or I don't even know what the big frameworks are right now, the web space moves so quickly that if you stop paying attention for like

six months or a year everything on the cutting edge completely changes compare this to like, you know, more traditional desktop development. If you look at Linux or Windows or Mac OS or even like mobile stuff even, the best practices you see don't really change that often. Like everyone on Linux is still building GTK and Qt applications, but if we look at the web space, there's so much going on and it is evolving so quickly that... There was a video I found, I think it was like three or four years

ago, maybe it was an article, one of the two, where it was making a joke over like how much the web changed but when you get to the end you start looking up some of the tech they mentioned none of it was a joke like they mentioned like 30 different things that changed in the span of six months and all of it actually happened i don't know how much attention you pay to the web space. Oh, yeah, and what I do put attention to as well is that most of those websites, they fail when it comes to accessibility standards. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's not really the big companies that are adopting these changes very quickly. It's more like, you know, it's a startup culture. You have hundreds of startups forming and most of them are going to fail and when you're a startup you know you don't have all of this legacy code so that means you can use whatever the latest tech is which isn't always the best of plans because sometimes the latest tech needs a bit more time to um to mature to the point where it's viable on a large scale platform like i keep getting people who tell me that hey why are we using rust in the kernel we should be

using zig why have you heard of zig yeah i did but i know very little about it i don't know anything about it either what i do know is the language is like six years old. So... Oh my god. Yeah, I don't think a six-year-old language is going to make its way into the kernel. Rust barely made it into the kernel, so... Yeah. It's like Speck's dick as well.

Well, the Rust thing's a weird one as well. I think a lot of people want to... I guess... How would you describe it? Want to say that rust is getting to the kernel because of like because of the rust stations they have They have argued enough for it and now it's gonna make it in ignoring the fact that Linus Torvalds is the one that runs the kernel so Last I checked Torvalds wasn't going to just like

bend over and accept whatever people want to do and yeah it's pretty off like like we can see from history that he's not the most open or i mean i mean i wouldn't say not open but he's not going to accept every single thing in the world either he has shown this well I think the only way you can come to that opinion is if you don't know the history

of getting Rust into the kernel when it first started being brought in when the initial patch set came in when it was on it's first RFC Linus tore it to shreds like there were that so it was using a lot of the rust standard library and Rust has this issue which is great for the user space which is

the memory safety so In rust if under some conditions if it you, like, application ran out of memory, if, like, you used up all the system memory, the application would just panic and crash, which you can't have happen in a kernel, that's just not viable, so he was tearing things like that apart, and he wasn't, like, a lot of people, when they're, like, not very experienced with programming, will talk about things like the syntax. But Linus was more focused on the tooling available. Because we've spent 30 years improving C tooling around the Linux kernel.

Bringing in a new language to that is going to take time for that tooling to mature to the point where it's actually at the same standard. Compile times aren't the major deal, but, like, the documentation tooling and things like that, all of that stuff is really important. Hmm. I thought you were going to say something. No, not really. I mean, I completely agree.

There's nothing which I can add. Yes, that's fair. But yeah, the syntax thing's a weird one. So you were saying that... I know on your blog you were saying how you got into programming very recently. I don't know when you actually posted that blog. But it's your latest one, isn't it? Or one before latest?

Yeah, the latest one on my birthday actually, 10th of October. Oh, it was your birthday, was it? Oh, happy birthday for the October 10th then. Oh, thank you. I didn't actually read through it, but I did notice it. So, a brief introduction. How did you actually get yourself into programming then? Like, what was your experience?

Because I've said mine plenty of times before, I had a programming course in high school that was Java-based, uh, it was like a game development course, I did that for the two years I did that, then I went to university and, you know, started, I studied, like, programming concepts, Python, things like that, and now I'm here, not really use my programming, but you actually do use it. So how did you get started? Okay, so basically, I'm not going to explain before I got started

because I tried many times, but I kept failing. But I'm just going to explain the part where it was actually successful, like when I actually actually got started so that was just a year ago um i took um like i actually dropped out of college um because i just i just couldn't take it anymore um teachers were horrible um the courses like i was taking programming courses but they were just horrible because of the teachers yeah um so i tried another approach and it's to take an online course um a free online course by harvard university um it's called cs oh yeah so i was about to ask exactly what you're gonna say right now yeah so the name of the course is cs um computer science

50 or harvard's introduction to computer science um or cs50 as well and holy shit they have amazing reason like they have a lot of resources they have their own discord server they have reddit there are many platforms where you can ask questions if you ever need help their lectures are about like an hour to two hours long but they're literally quality videos like the microphone is amazing the professor explains really well and they have a lot of guides they even have their own c documentation like their C manual. That is... Usually, the C manual is very, very technical. But like CS50, they have their own manual

that is basically in layman's... Not exactly in layman's term, but it is simplified. So they're not going to... They try to avoid information overload as much as possible by using simple terms. That's really how I got started with programming, and I started completing their assignments. From that, I gained more and more experience. experience um by the end of uh well almost the end of the course i we learned python css um html and javascript um and c of course yeah then i was like okay you know what i want to try like all of these high-level languages and C. Yeah. We actually started from Scratch.

Sure, okay. Because it's an introduction to programming. So it's made for people who have no idea how programming works. So Scratch is a pretty good utility when you want to start grasping the concepts of programming. At least in my opinion. No, that's fair. After that, for some reason, not for some reason, the way they

approach it is really well done. They go from scratch to C. Yeah, it sounds weird. It sounds weird, but they explain it really in layman's terms as well. With a lot of simplifications. They try to make you write really good code and take good practices.

And after that, they make you use Python. So you can have a lot of the understanding that you got from C and then apply it on Python. have a lot of the understanding that you got from C and then apply it on Python. Ah. Yeah, it's a bit... I don't know how to explain it. It's more something that clicks as you go through the course.

That's a really... That's a really weird setup. It is. But at least it helped me a lot no I guess if Harvard is making this public they've clearly thought this through

mhm yep I was gonna say cause my introduction to programming was very very just teaching it like a maths class like okay we're gonna study this subject now and we're gonna study this subject now, and we're gonna study this subject now

It's not like Linking these it's like a really boring maths class like they're they're not linking the subjects together and how these concepts you know will Ultimately help you build like help you build something in the future. It's more like We don't know how to teach this so yeah just just go but the fact that it's how long is it it's 12 weeks 6 18 hours per week self-paced so yeah like uh what what would that be like a at most like 200 hours something like that if like you're going really slow the fact is the fact that you can get like anything useful out of that shows that

they've actually thought out the way this this structure works and you wouldn't go from scratch to see unless they thought that structure out well hmm plus Harvard is a well-known university. Yeah, it's also Harvard, yes. Exactly. So yeah, after that we go from low level to Python, well from C to Python, and then we learn JavaScript, HTML, and CSS for web web programming and then we combine with python and start um and start making web applications um and start playing with frameworks um and at the end like the last um the last assignment is a final project where you can do whatever you want and i'm at my last project i'm actually making my own application for once finally i'm actually doing something um but yeah so just a

little spoiler i'm making an application where it upscales images um so there's a utility hold on let me get it wait is that why your discord um what are the description message daily something or whatever the hell this is i hate real escron yeah it's exactly that because i'm using uh um i'm using this like real esr g and utility yeah the documentation is awful um it's just your average open source project um they have like a lot of the information are really really unclear so i am just torturing myself with that um it doesn't help that it's already i was gonna say it doesn't help that yeah all of the core developers english is a second language by the sounds of it.

Like, they're all Chinese developers. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like, I have my, right, so the application is a GTK4 plus the Badweta application. It's a front-end for Disk Utility. So I'm trying to make it actually user friendly but again it's such a uh the documentation is so bad that the application itself is the easy part not not understanding this like yeah which but yeah i just posted uh don't look at the don't look at the commit history oh don't tell me that

yeah just just ignore that but yeah at some point i'm going to um yeah at some point i'm just going to um um rebase it and make proper commits i'm just doing this because I often switch from my laptop to my desktop And vice versa So I need to Put it in my repo Have you heard of

A Dropbox A Drop Yeah I mean I don't want to use that Or like I don't know whatever the thing yeah a false alternative or just something that's not this well again i can rebase which i will later on but at least with git i can i can run git log i can troubleshoot, you know, you get bisect and other of their commands and

features So at least I can take advantage of them. So the commit messages is not really a big problem for me. But yeah Again, I will rebase it. I'll make proper commits afterwards. But yeah So, um, how was that experience going from scratch to c because i'm sure that was like a weird jump at first i was like what the fuck but at afterwards um they have their own c libraries like they're called cs50 libraries and they give extra functions just to make it easier for users to get started with c right right right because again c is they assume that you're already technical a technical user or like right or whatever you want to say you want to print a string make sure you set your buffer

size correctly yeah honestly i forgot c but um yeah they have a lot of those uh training wheels um libraries um that you can use and after that like as you go through you remove uh they remove uh they ask you to not use those libraries anymore and to go with the however c does it yeah yeah because they start teaching you pointers and then algorithms and everything like that. And they teach you to take good practices as well. How do they approach pointers? Because I've had a lot of

teachers that are really bad at explaining them. So they have a massive tablet, not a tablet, sorry, a monitor. They visually show, like, they visually present how pointers work um yeah again i can't really explain it because uh it's i don't really remember the early yeah yeah uh but yeah it's i did learn about pointers um about algorithms, and a lot of the technical...

Even compilers, actually, they teach a lot of those fundamentals of programming. Okay. Very verbosely and in a very simple way as well. I mean, if you want to get started programming, like my go-to is CS50. It's entirely free of charge. So you don't have to pay for anything. It's also openly available. All you need is an account.

And I don't even think there's an age requirement as well. So the only thing that you can optionally pay for is a certification you know just to brag to companies that hey I got a certification but the course itself is entirely free the resources you get are entirely free and all their videos their lectures are available on YouTube as well

I wonder why they actually approached it this way maybe they realized that a lot of people were starting to do these, like, bootcamps. Because that's what this is. This is a self-paced bootcamp. Maybe they wanted to get in on that market, but lower the barrier to entry.

Because, you know, all of the bootcamps that are available, they'll either be charging you up front or charging you when you get a job. Here, they're only charging you... Do they have any, like, materials you can buy? Like, optional materials? Or is it just the certification at the end? Just the certification. The materials are entirely free.

Hmm. So, possibly they're trying to, like, onboard people into Harvard like that. Because I know Harvard does, like, online stuff like everyone else does now. So, that could possibly be what they're trying to like onboard people into Harvard like that. Because I know Harvard does like online stuff like everyone else does now. So that could possibly what they're doing. Like you go through this introduction in computer science and then, hey, you want to keep doing computer science. You're already in the Harvard system. Why don't you now enroll in like a full course or something like that? Oh, that is a full course.

No, I mean like further courses like you've done your introduction maybe now you want to go do like the higher level stuff uh their higher level stuff are on cs like in the edx website and i'm pretty sure they're free as well okay you know my plan maybe they're just trying to do a good thing i'm trying to think of how they're trying to make money somehow maybe they just maybe they're just as well. Okay, you know my plan? Maybe they're just trying to do a good thing. I'm trying to think of how they're trying to make money somehow. Maybe they're just doing a good thing. Yeah, I guess the certifications, but like, I don't know how

much a company would value that certification. Maybe someone would, but yeah. I think they would because the word Harvard says a lot already that's fair yeah um oh yeah i i think it's worth it if you want to get started in programming and at least the way i did it um at week eight um i start i like you know i opened up a bit. I started contributing to open source projects.

And that's also where I got started with bottles, like developing with bottles. At first, I was just a helper. I was just supporting users regarding Flatpak. But after that, I slowly started to contribute to bottles in code. contribute to bottles uh like in code um yeah and then um like i i knew nothing about gtki back then or back then i mean like four months ago um i asked uh merco the maintainer of bottles like i was i was asking him like a million questions about how this should work. He answered like he was really nice.

And that's how I got, that's how I started to understand GTK. That's how it's thanks to him. Like right now I am making my own application as we speak. So yeah, like if you or just the viewer, whoever wants to get started with programming, So yeah, if you or just the viewer, whoever wants to get started with programming, one thing I really recommend is that don't hesitate to ask questions to developers. Don't feel intimidated

because if an open source collaboration is welcome in practically everywhere, if you want to ask help, well, a maintainer will start helping you with code contributions and in return you can help them back contributing to their software that's basically

what I'm doing with Bottles the way I'm returning the way I'm showing my appreciation is that I'm now a developer I'm making a lot of UI changes I'm fixing bugs I'm adding new features. I am making a lot of UI changes. I am fixing bugs. I'm adding new features. And Miracle has less to worry about bottles now

because I am now merging some pull requests. So he has to review less. And now he can work on other projects as well. But yeah, again, don't hesitate to ask questions i i think that's one thing that people often feel intimidated when they want to get started with programming they they just don't want to feel like they're people will call them dumb and probably i guess at some point as a developer it is entirely inevitable to be called a moron or dumbass. You will get insulted because a small chunk of users are always going to be entitled.

I wish I had learned this a lot sooner because I would have already... Probably my application would have been already done like 3-4 years ago if had I started this approach before but I think at least for

right now with the new approach I think it's a really nice outcome I'm actually really satisfied with it and thanks to the knowledge I, I think it's a really nice outcome. I'm actually really satisfied with it. And thanks to the knowledge I gained, I started contributing to other GNOME applications. Now, of course, I'm just talking about GNOME, but if you're more of a KDE person or, I don't know, you prefer another project,

you can still do the exact same thing as I did, just that you focus on another project, if that makes sense. What was it about Bottles that grabbed your attention? Honestly, I was using it back then. I was using it back then. Yeah, it's not exactly the most legal reason why. For anyone who doesn't know what Bottles is, just give a brief explanation for what it is first.

All right, so Bottles is a GTK4 plus Libby the Wayda application that lets you run Windows software on Linux. It has a lot of gaming-related features as well. For example, GameScope integration, VKBuzzAlt integration. And it is meant in a way where you don't have to use Wine directly because, at least in my opinion, Wine, like using Wine directly,

is a pain in the ass. I've seen some Lutra scripts. It's definitely a pain in the ass and bottles scripts it's definitely a pain in the ass yeah i did as well and honestly even though i'm a developer of bottles i know nothing about the back end because mirko did all the work i look at the back and i'm like what the fuck is going on um so i just focus on the front end stuff um yeah so with bottles i used um i ran some windows games uh windows only games um not exactly the most legal way but that's another topic um so um yeah and I liked it a lot.

It helped me play my games that I always wanted to play as well. So, and I also noticed that there were a lot of typos. There were a lot of, you know, there were some visual problems here and there. Because, after all, Bottles is a really big app. And Mirko, again, the maintainer, he does not speak English. It's not his first language. So yeah, I was just fixing typos. And then there's the CS50 part that happened. Okay, so you started working on bottles first,

just doing the non-programming stuff, and then you did the CS50 stuff, and then you started contributing to the code side. Mm-hmm. Yeah, at first I was just contributing to Flatpak because I have, I'm pretty knowledgeable with Flatpak, so I was just helping people with permissions.

And, uh, maybe I was, sometimes I was reporting bugs and he was fixing them but I was never like doing the development side mm-hmm right that makes sense one thing I did want to ask you about is about GTK about the GTK documentation she said you don't like the real escrow on documentation what about GTK side I've not looked at it myself so i have no idea what it's like um it is really technical um i wouldn't say it's bad but it expects um it assumes that you do have knowledge um and you know you know how does

stuff work um and again like i've asked a million questions to him because there are many things that I couldn't understand. But as time went by, I became more and more literate with GTK. And now documentation, I understand more and more. So documentation, they will assume a lot from you at first which is going to be overwhelming and this is why i suggest people to ask questions to developers um because they will help you um with those stuff and then you will start learning more and more as you gain experience

from that i i'm just looking at the Hello World page right now and I don't think they understand the purpose of like explaining how Hello World works because it's just like copy and paste this wall of code and that does Hello World

we're not going to explain what any of this stuff does or link you to a location where you can find out what this stuff does or link you to location. We can find out what this stuff does. Yeah. Introductions writing introductions of a, of something like this. It's really difficult. Um,

yeah. And that's why, again, try to ask questions. Yeah. It's just better. And there are times, um, because there are different ways to write applications. Um, GTK apps. Yeah. It's just better. And there are times because there are different ways

to write applications, GTK apps. Yeah. One, you can use it directly from the programming language. And the other one is by using UI files like XML or the newer one, Blueprint. It's just that they focus mainly on the code,

like in this case C, like writing UIs in C. But I think the better practice is to use UI files, which they don't really explain here. Yeah, that's what I mean. Try to ask questions, try to look at other projects

because I tried to get started from similar pages like these. I gave up almost instantly. It's really hard to understand those stuff. At least in my opinion. But yeah, this page in particular, I don't think it's good.

But if we look at their widgets, docs.gtk.org, I think that one is fine., docs.gtk.org, I think that one is fine. Docs.gtk.org. And then there's... Hold on. Do you want the link? No, I found it.

Okay. And then there's also the libadwaita Documentation Which is a really cursed Domain Gnome.pages.gitlab.gnome.org Epic Domain It's your domain

You don't have to do this What is this thing? I have no idea, but hey, it is what it is. Yeah, it is what it is. Well, yeah, the Edwida docks looks exactly the same as the Jitiki docks. It's for the Edwida specifically. I think, I know you say you haven't really looked at it I think the gold standard for software

documentation and like getting started guides is react because react to getting started guide basically will take you from you know nothing about react and then introduce like a concept at a time and explaining what like each of them do and why you might want to use them and how

of like where else you can find information about this section of the code as well. I think this is probably the best way I've ever seen- plus it introduces different ways of writing the same thing. This, I think, is probably the best way I've seen to introduce any library like this. Obviously, they have their proper documentation as well, where it's like, hey, here's the API reference guide, things like that. But their getting started

guide does a really good job. I'm just looking at it. I mean, I can't really skim through but yeah it's not like just dumping of like hey here's 50 lines of code go ahead just go see what happens

yep at least that's nice GUI libraries are always going to be complex like especially GUI libraries where you're writing the code, like writing a code in C, writing code in Java, whatever, rather than, you know, using some sort of

markup language or in a lot of languages using some sort of graphical editor tool that will write the code for you. Wait, can you repeat? Ah, what I was saying was writing like gui code like right just like in c or java or python or anything like that is always going to be like pretty complex to look at if you're not like super familiar with the uh the library it's always going to be easier to do

markup stuff or for a lot of, uh, a lot of languages, there'll be these like GUI creator tools where it'll go and write that code for you based on where you place things in some sort of like GUI, um, uh, canvas sort of thing. Yeah. There's one for GNOME.

I, hold on, let me, uh, I feel like I know what you, let me Uh It's called Glade Um, there's Glade There's also, I remember Euphoric of it That is more newer

That supports the Bedweta Yeah, typically Um, they're not perfect So It's gonna give you working code but it's not going to be the most optimal code Glade it's not really code, it's the UI itself

so the XML as I was talking about before because the UI can be completely separate from the code so Glade for example they do the XML part. You can do your own design mockups, whatever. And then you can export it as XML.

Yep, yep. That's really cool. I'm not surprised that something does exist. Yeah. But, you know... I think automation tools like this are actually... Like... The direction we this are actually, like, the direction we're going with, like, programming automation is kind of,

maybe a bit too far in some cases, like, when we're at the point where it's, like, automating UI design, that's one thing, but now that we're sort of moving in the direction of, you know, AI code code generation things like that it's i don't know where we're going with these automation tools and i don't know where in like 10 years we're going to be with like the quality that's available probably copilot will be writing everything for you now yeah have you been paying any attention to more like hey here's co-pilot spitting out things it really shouldn't be spitting out like a couple of days ago um maybe it was a week ago or so where it was spitting out like um what do you call them like

uh like fixed statements yeah fixed statements that had Twitter handles attached to them. That were like actual real Twitter handles. Oh my god, that's epic. That's amazing. I mean, I've seen some cursed stuff. Just on Twitter or Reddit, whatever. But I wasn't paying attention to the whole thing. That's fair.

Yeah, to be honest, I'm fine with AI. My only gripe with Copilot is that it's proprietary. I find that very exploitative to open source. And that's more reasons for me why I'm trying to push Miracle

to move from GitHub. Because Microsoft, I from GitHub because Microsoft I guess GitHub and Microsoft they're going to try to exploit open source as time goes by I don't want them to I don't want bottles to stay

on a platform, on a very exploitative platform, at least in my opinion Where would it be going to gitlab if it did live yeah yeah yeah either gitlab or gnome's gitlab because we're trying um we're trying to make it um reapplied to gnome circle um we're slowly fixing um the reviews like sorry we're slowly addressing reviews what is going circle oh hold on let me so give me a second applications and libraries extending the genome ecosystem yeah they're just third-party apps that use

genome technologies right yeah and so we're trying to get bottles in genome that use GNOME technologies. Right. Yeah, and so we're trying to get bottles in GNOME Circle among many third-party applications. And I think that if it gets accepted to GNOME Circle, we also have some of the benefits

from it. Like, we can move our repo to GNOME's GitLab. We can... GNOME, they have their own nightly Flatpak remote, so we can release experimental builds, nightly experimental builds to the GNOME remote so other people can test as well. So there are still some benefits from that. Let me find the link. I had not heard about this. That's cool. Yeah, it's really nice. They're trying to, I mean, we already know at this point, GNOME, they're trying to make it an actual platform.

Which is nice. I completely respect that. One of the benefits you get is a gnome.org email. Very important benefit you get. Well, you must brag about it, of course. Oh, yeah. Just imagine just an outsider, you and you have to know

that or because they don't know what gnome is so for them it's gonna be an actual gnome oh man i have had um i have had some outsiders show up on random videos where i mentioned gnome and they're like i have no idea what the hell this is yep and i can see why yeah it's um you know not exactly the uh most seo friendly name we'll say yep at least with like kde you're like okay i don't know what a kde is, but I, it's clearly not something, does KDE stand for anything? I have no idea actually. I've,

I've never even thought about that. Not, uh, not anymore. Before, as far as I know, it used to stand for cool desktop environment with a K.

Um, That sounds like something that would happen. Okay. Yeah, now that name was like, slowly, became redundant even gnome in case you don't know it's an acronym for GNU network object model environment um don't don't ask why I memorized this but even that doesn't mean anything anymore it It's GNOME. It's just GNOME nowadays.

GNOME network. I don't remember what you just said. GNU network object model environment. I'm going to forget that in five minutes again. What a name. Should I just write it down? What a name. Yep. But hey, at least they got rid of that name

It's just Gnome now Yeah yeah That's stupid Open source names in a nutshell Well not just open source names Just programming names in general Um Yeah

PHP was a bad one? What does PHP stand for? Was it PHP? No, no, PHP was one that made sense. There was one- there's a couple- I'm trying to- there's a programming language that has a recursive name. I don't remember which one it was, though. Recursive names. It doesn't matter. Either way, the software... Wait, no. No, PHP does. No, PHP is...

It was derived from personal homepage tools, and now it stands for PHP hypertext preprocessor oh my god amazing name I hate them I hate everyone who does this I don't know what we got here

what are we talking about yeah speaking of like acronyms and things like that wine even wine lost it's meaning now What's that? Yeah, speaking of like acronyms and things like that, wine. Even wine lost its meaning now. Yeah, wine's not an emulator. Yeah.

It doesn't stand for that anymore. Is it just wine now? Yep. Yeah, because the word emulator Yeah, that's because the word emulator is quite misleading. Because it depends per context. It doesn't really emulate Windows itself,

but it does emulate environments. So, you know, there's some... If you're going to be pedantic, well, it could be in some ways. It is an emulator. In some ways, it's not. I mean, I don't know why they removed it i assume that's the reason why but even if you go in wine in wine uh wine's website do you even say

formerly known or something like that formerly a backronym uh yeah originally an acronym for wine is not an emulator yeah yeah that's it lost its meaning over time as well yeah that's no fun so yeah now that youtubers are like not just youtubers but anyone who says the wine stands for that it's it's now it's it's outdated information now i i've had no idea that it ever changed yeah me too um someone just out of nowhere told me that. I was like, oh my god. That was like a couple of months ago. I was like, no way. My life was a lie. There's no way this happened. how great Linux software is, but if Wine didn't exist, we wouldn't be seeing a lot of the usage of Linux that we're seeing today. Like, a lot of the modern usage,

especially the past, like, year or so, has been driven by the gaming side. Like, in my case, for example, I wouldn't be on Linux... I probably wouldn't still be on Linux if I couldn't game on it. Yeah, me neither. Yeah, it's

wine it's one of those pieces of software that everyone sort of acknowledges exists and you know we know is an important piece of software but no one really talks about it yeah we talk this we talk more about wine uh wine ecosystem rather than Wine itself. So DXVK, VKD3D. Because that's more on the gaming stuff. Wine is just what it is. Yeah, it was the back end of Proton. Yeah, and DXVK, VKD3D, and some projects here and there as well.

Because I actually didn't realize when Wine had originally started. So it started around the year 2000. And I don't know if you've looked at the early bug reports from the Wine bug tracker. If you go back and look at early bug reports for any of the really long-running projects,

a lot of them, their initial bug reports are just absolute garbage. So in Wine's case, the first eight bug reports, I don't know why they needed eight for this, but the first eight bug reports are test

bug reports. and they just get progressively worse and worse and worse as you go on. Just the test... I guess it makes sense, because they need to test their infrastructure. Well, you would expect those early bugs to be deleted, but in their case,

like, eh, it's here. Just keep it around, it's fine. Gotta keep it open for everyone to view. Like, I've got a video. The reason I even know about this is I was planning a video on the first bug report in Ubuntu's history. I don't know if you know what this one is, but the first bug report ever made was Windows has more market share than Linux. Wow.

And that has... It has so many comments on it that the... Like, Canonical's launchpad does not function. So if you go Click on show all comments It will time out every time Because there's 2000 comments And it doesn't count

You know how on Launchpad if Someone tags something or if a bug Is mentioned somewhere you've probably seen this if you've ever looked at a Bug report on there It'll have like a message saying That that was done. Um, so like at the end?

Uh, like you'll have, so, I'll just show you, why didn't I just show you? That would make it easier. Fair enough. Uh, here we go. Oi, wrong one. This one. Uh, that one. This one. That one. Go. If it loads now. What's it just not work at all?

It's just completely broken. So if you scroll down past like this initial comment, you'll start noticing things that aren't numbered um actually even the first thing whenever any like updates are made anything like that that's not a comment made directly by a user it won't actually have a comment number attached to it so it doesn't actually count those as comments so you have the 2 000 actual comments and then probably like another thousand or so like update things just like hey here's a

thing that's happening so you click on show all comments and the site dies it has too many comments it doesn't know what to do with them you all okay that is

I love this oh my god 2020 oh my god this one was just a couple days ago I mean a couple weeks ago yeah people are still updating it for like the modern versions of Ubuntu and all of that stuff

even though it got closed like 8 years ago do they not have a locking mechanism? it's a joke bug report no one bothered to lock it oh fair enough it makes sense yeah I got into the timeout

it times out every time I've tried it like 5 times it doesn't work my god but i mentioned a bit earlier the gnome mailing list thing so that they're actually finally shutting them down uh yeah they're moving completely to discourse now. Finally. I hate mailing lists so much. I'm part of some groups, especially Fedora Quality Assurance. They heavily use mailing lists

and I unsubscribe because I just can't stand mailing mails anymore. It gets spammy so quickly and I just don't like the interface as well of most clients I don't even think there's a good email client so far, even web clients aren't good

I just feel like emails are something that are like broken beyond repair but yeah, sorry for the rant no, no, that's fine, because I was about to say that a lot of the older people in the FOSS space don't want to acknowledge the fact that among the younger people, email is basically a dead tech. Like, email is only used because people keep using email.

As soon as, like, I would say in, like, 20 or 30 years, I wouldn't be surprised if email basically goes the way of, like, goes the way of radio, where, you know, some people still use it, but, you know, no one really cares. Like, it just happens to be there. It's this thing that sort of just exists, and someone's going to use it. But, like, most communication happens through other means, whether it's through DMs through other means whether it's through uh dms on platforms whether it's through people still like forums forums are still great

so whether it's through that i think plus it's they're more discoverable as well i think okay what's what mainly are really good for is when a platform like okay when we're talking about someone with a screen reader, if you have a badly designed forum, a mailing list archive is going to be better basically 100% of the time. Like, in most cases, a mailing list is just text. They don't really do, like, HTML. like html some of them will you know they'll have html but most of the mailing lists are like people above 50 that only know what plain text email is um so they're great for screen readers and i don't think anyone can argue anything about that but when it comes to the general usability and what a lot of people are growing up with,

most people are growing up with platforms like Discord, like Reddit. We can say what we want about proprietary platforms, but this is the experience that people have. So if you're going from that and then you come over to Linux and it's like, okay, now you want to contribute to this project, learn what a mailing list is. Go work that one out. And the documentation is usually not great.

It's usually centered around people that already understand mailing lists. But then there's things like, you know, the Gnome Discourse, where it's just a forum. And it's, you know, and if you've used and basically if you use anything in the uh anything of any forums in the foss space you probably use discourse because it's got a very noticeable style and there's like framework has it manjaro uses it a bunch of other projects use it as well. Discourse is a very recognizable platform. Yeah, for good too, because Discourse, at least in my opinion, it's a really, really good platform.

I love, every time I use Discourse, I just have a good experience because I can write, I can comment comment and i can navigate at the same time because the comment section it stays there or like you know the little input um there's also there are also tldrs if the um if the thread is like really long um it helps you summarize the whole thing and also there's also a solved like you know a little solved status I don't know why there are many

forums like software that don't do that but having something that says that oh it is solved and what comment solves it is a freaking like like, it's a godsend. Absolutely. And there's also a where you left off. So, for example, yeah, so when you're reading through a thread

and you close the tab and, you know, I don't know, two days later, you go back to that thread it will let you know like where exactly you left off like there are so many neat features like this um in discourse they just it makes it really uh a really really nice experience the only problem that discourse has is there is a lot of people who when you say the words discourse their brain thinks discord that's the only problem it has the names are way too similar and I've had people complain

about how bad discourse is and how spammy the comments are and people spamming emojis because they think that we're talking about discord oh my god when people usually talk about like forums like this they don't mention the back-end software like you with with gnome you know because they're dumb and set their uh their um the subdomain to be discourse.gnome.org rather than everyone else who is like a forum.whatever.

So with GNOME, you actually know, but everyone else is sort of like, this is just a forum. So when you start mentioning the backend software, some people just have no idea what the software running it actually was. But I mostly agree that discourse is great i have a few issues with it like searching can be a little bit weird sometimes because it like um some of them not the gnome one i think i think frameworks and maybe manjaros's will, like, override your, um, your browser

search. Which can be a bit annoying. I feel- Search or history? I like when you do, like, control F. Oh, um. I like trying to do their own sort of search. The gnome one doesn't do it

but some of the other ones do override that I get it technically it's searching the forum better but just let me do my regular browser search please I'm happy with the way that works speaking of

discourse apparently roblox out of anyone uses um discourse or their dev forums i know why i just had to bring it what sure okay yep that's i don't remember how yeah i don't remember how I discovered it but I just went to the dev forums of Roblox and I was like wait that's discourse that's freaking cool even the Nvidia dev forums

or developer forums they use discourse as well it is it is really practical to use discourse yep that's definitely discourse it has got such a distinctive style it is really practical to use, um, discourse. Yep. That's definitely discourse.

It has got such a distinctive style that even when there is a very clear, like theme applied to stuff, you notice discourse very quickly. It reminds me a lot of, uh, I don't know if you've heard of it, but there is a CSS library called bootstrap't know if you've heard of it, but there is a CSS library called Bootstrap.

And if you've ever used Bootstrap, you will notice Bootstrap websites everywhere. Yeah. I immediately do. Honestly, one thing that I love about Bootstrap is the buttons. I like that little animation it does when it starts glowing a bit.

I don't know if you noticed that. I think it's really smooth, and... Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah. I don't know why. I just like the animation.

Yeah. I like Bootstrap, but, like, it's very bootstrap but like it's like like discourse it's you notice it you're like this i know what you are i know what you are straight away no matter what you try to do to this i see it yeah it's once you know it you can't yousee. Well, it's just, you will always see it from now on. I've noticed that a lot of, it kind of makes sense why Gnome is dropping the mailing list because I've seen, especially Reddit posts from certain people like Emmanuel Bassi,

who very clearly do not like mailing lists. Like, thinks they are a relic of of the past like one of the the comments i saw from him on reddit was someone um was arguing about mailing lists being good because you know the linux kernel likes them and this is the workflow they go with and hey tell that tell the linux kernel that mailing lists are a bad way to submit patches and he went on this big rant being like the only reason that linux still uses main list is because they have stockholm syndrome oh my god there's no productive reason to use this it's only stockholm syndrome okay um to be fair like i know

where he's coming from um of course he's like he's obviously over it's obviously like satirical but um he does he does make a point because linux kernel developers they are very conservative when it comes to like technologies and use they still use The ancient UI of bugzilla like the one that looks terrible that looks ugly Well, they still use patches. Sorry. I said I don't think I've ever seen the links bug tracker. It's bugzilla Let's have a look see Well, I always just go, oh my god. Looks bad, right? Yeah, whenever I see something related to Linux,

I'm always doing something on the mailing list. Holy shit, this is bad. Yep, that's the old Bugzilla for you. KDE, they're using Bugzilla as well, but they're using a newer, like a revamped interface called the bugzilla harmony um mozilla uses bugzilla harmony as well um for firefox and thunderbird thunderbird and other projects um think that bugzilla harmony is like much much better uh ui you can go into our websites and you'll see

that it's just automatically an upgrade there's nothing you will probably not even find a regression or you know something that is worse from the old one i think it's better in every um but yeah the nicer yeah um so i do um emmanuel bastia does have a good point that they stick with older stuff and even the the linux kernel itself is very ancient and it hasn't moved a lot since if that makes sense like the linux store valves has this number one rule of don't break user space so so they're never and gnome they're like the opposite um i mean not to say that always break user space is a rule but the rule is like if something can be modernized do it like even if they're going to lose users even if they're going to uh make some people upset they should still do it in the

name of progress um but these girl developers new tagline for gnome gnome always break user space uh um there's also systemd um they're like pottering he is a very progressive person like he wants progress and that's why i'm a really big fan of him and gnome because they push progress and they also understand that you cannot make everyone happy every single change you make you're gonna make someone upset so like you know eventually you you should change something and i understand why the kernel developers don't want to change because we're talking about a kernel here so i understand where they come from and and like uh mailing lists um because those uh kernel developers they're heavily involved in corporate environments and you know in places where corporations like corporations love email

they do well i guess so yeah yeah they you know send emails around for everything we could a lot of the oh okay there's a difference between whether we're talking about corporations or a lot of the smaller tech startups because a lot of the smaller tech startups are relying on things like slack now but when you're in a much bigger you know legacy company a lot of them have their their workflows sort of set in stone and a lot of those workflows are based around email honestly they would still use fax machines if if you could still buy them if anyone still made them and sold them outside of Japan yeah but like I do

understand why the current developers don't want to move to something new because when you try something it's not free it's not free time you know you have to spend your time to relearn something so it makes sense

for them to stick 2,000 years ago. That's completely fine. But they both have, both Gnome developers and Gnome developers, they have good points.

It just matters the environment, if it's actually worth it or not. For GNOME, they're known to push newer technologies and to move really quickly. They also switched to Matrix. Well, they still have an irc bridge but honestly

matrix is like it's at least a lot better um i i have heard from some people that it's a bit worse for moderation. Matrix? Yeah. Over IRC? Matrix. Because it doesn't expose... Over IRC or... Because it doesn't expose user IPs like IRC does.

Which is better for security, but it means you also can't IP ban people. I mean, there's no easy way to delete messages on IRC either so yeah it's IRC moderation isn't good either at least with matrix there is a bot for moderation it's not

good but at least with time hopefully it becomes better but yeah moderation on matrix does suck um i don't think there is a sane person that will disagree with this well to be fair moderation on discord isn't great either it just it's it's all pretty bad to be honest like everything's good when everyone's being good as soon as you need to actually do anything that's where there's problems yeah but discord

sorry discord does a lot better that front especially in matrix there's also federation so someone can just spin up well not just but someone can spin up another instant and start trolling

or they can just log into another instance and start trolling or they can just log into another instance and start trolling so there are a lot of issues with matrix moderation which is unfortunate because federation is a really cool idea in decentralization yeah I

agree I think the problem I think the problem comes with... Decentralization doesn't... It's not free. Like many things, it's... It might be monetarily free, but the amount of time spent bringing it up to the standards that are expected,

that is going to cost quite a bit of time. And the same is true, obviously, for the mailing list that we were talking about before. But, um, from my understanding, Gnome was still using the old Python 2 version of Mailman, so I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true about Linux. I don't know what they're using as their mailing list software. I presume it's Mailman.

But whatever they're using, it's probably going to be the oldest thing they could ever find. It was set up whenever they set the mailing list up. Yeah, to be honest, I don't think that anyone really wants to maintain a mailing list. So, and with... Yeah, and at least if we look at discourse i'm pretty sure that discourse like you can have a contract with discourse where they host it for you um not sure i'm not 100 sure about it but it's possible that at least

they have some benefits i know that you can actually interact with discourse like just the regular forum side through email i know that is a thing you can do yeah that's true so for that like you know fight i don't know if i also people that want to use emails still for it like it's an option there i guess guess, if you really, really have to do that. But for everyone else, yeah, we're going to do something else. Yeah, especially discourse. Like, it's a lot more approachable, accessible for newcomers or newer developers. Because it's just much easier to use their mailing list.

I, again, I hate mailing lists. I got used to it. Well, it depends how I mean by used to it, because I know how to use it, but I still hate it. Right, right, right. Even navigating through archives, and it has really bad SEO as well. So it's just bad combinations.

Discourse does a much better job with SEO I think one argument I hear made quite often is lowering the barrier to entry lowers the overall

quality that is present and I think there's some merit to that being said lowers the overall quality that is present. And I think there's some merit to that being said, but I don't know whether it really justifies having such a high barrier to entry to interact in this space. I think you can make the argument for Linux, possibly that you only want people who are very serious

about it to be getting involved but I really don't know if that's if that's best in the long run or it just happens to work for Linux like you could say that having the mailing list there sort of acts

as a way to filter out people who might not be the most serious about getting involved yeah it makes sense and that's also why i'm okay with linux uh using uh bugzilla and all the less accessible platforms. Not just that, they also prevent trolls or people who don't know how to open issues. Because if you go on GitHub, you'll just find many people who will say,

the software doesn't work. There's no bug report. There is no explanation. Just, hey, it doesn't work. Fix no bug report there is no explanation just hey it doesn't work fix it please i beg you and i doubt like you will often find those types of people on like for example bugzilla because bugzilla like they they have some expectations from you like for example you have to choose your own category and if you look at the category there's like there's like 50 of them yeah um yeah there's so many uh products and then i forget what i forget this system there's a product and then like some category um then like

you know you have to you have to choose what type of issue it is and what type of the issue. For example, is it ACPI or is it, I don't know, yeah, all of those stuff, those little sub-projects, some areas of the kernel, which part of that are you reporting a bug for? And then after that, it's going to be a feature request, bug report, and then some other stuff as well. Here's a question for you.

Do you think there is ever a possibility going to the future? It's not going to happen until Linus is long gone from the project, but do you think there's a possibility at any point in the future that the Linux kernel will actually move from the way, like, from their own Git hosting setup and from the Bugzilla to, you know, one of these platforms that are available, obviously hosting it themselves, but move to something like a GitLab, a Gidia, or something like that? Or do you think that Linux is always going to have this legacy

and sort of as new people are brought in sort of get used to the way that it currently works, as the leadership changes, it's just going to continue down that route? I think it's going to stick with older platforms because

companies they fund a lot I think it's going to stick with older platforms because companies, they fund a lot of parts of the Linux kernel and a lot of developers as well. So one of the things where Linus, like the main philosophy, don't break user space, it's really, really useful for in corporate environments because the last thing they want is something to change and whereas for user facing like for us average people well we're not average people but you know for users who use computers um uh in the non-corporate environment, change can be fine.

But in a corporate environment, you know, changing something is something that you should avoid avoiding as much as possible. So I think that they will keep using older platforms just to keep corporations happy

with, you know, not changing at all. Mm-hmm. I think that's going to be true for a very long time, at least. I'm not going to certainly rule it out that one day they might discover a reason why they want to move, but I think, yeah, I think that's certainly going to be true for at least the foreseeable future.

And definitely until Linus is not involved in the project like probably after linus and greg are gone that's when any level of change is possible because both these guys have obviously line has been involved since the start but greg's been involved since i want to say i want to say 2.0 maybe a little bit earlier than that. So he's been there basically since the start as well. I think that other people involved in the kernel space, they share the same opinion as Greg and Linus. They're just not as popular, not to say in a rude way

but I think that even they will stick they'd want to stick in the current platforms I think the only thing you could possibly sorry unless they start attracting GNOME developers it's going to

stick as is yeah I was going to say the only thing that could really get them to move is if for some reason or another linux does start seeing like a reduction in developers because right now it's only growing like the i i want to say 6.0 was like 15,000 commits or something stupid like that. Jesus. I don't know how you manage that. And it's not like,

you know, they have a team of people handling the merge window. Linus is basically doing the merge window himself. Like there's a bit of help outside of that, but like 15,000 is a lot. Yeah. Linus, outside of that but like 15 000 is a lot yeah linus i remember uh watching something about him he said that he actually put because there's no way that he maintains like what 25 million lines of code at this point um he actually trusts people maintain certain parts and actually merge without his consultation.

So he does like, you know, he has several people that he does trust a lot for them to merge without telling Linus much about those merge requests or whatever they are, patches. Well, even so, if I just told you you you have to go and merge 500 commits, that's not a fun experience. No, it's not. It's not. Especially when you have to review, and then

I have trouble writing, so there are times when the person will have trouble reading what I wrote. We're going to have a lot of communication problems as well and plus I also have reading problems

so reading what they change is going to be difficult for me as well so yeah especially for someone like me even merging two merger quests it's a lot well yeah you've got all of your commits

we saw all of those E's so again it's going to get rebased at some point well I hope so wait I'll just look it makes it even funnier looking at the the last commits that changed stuff because basically all of the files

that are listed on the front are just like e on everything oh yeah and the first commit is like initial something like that i made sure that it's a fancy commit message yeah i think everyone does initial as their first commit just gotta just doesn't matter it's fine it is what it is gotta just doesn't matter it's fine it is what it is let's see what the first one actually is misc initial upscaler refactor port to blueprint and then just e something you decide to change it for those just one commit in there got bored of just e really um let me check yeah there's one that's just something like that literally says something yeah you have to look at my uh um my commits and bottles um in merge requests because like now we have a proper like commit message guideline but in pull requests, merge requests it's not really important to have

proper pretty committed messages so they're just E, oops, F E, it's random spam stuff oh so great, I love it let me check

the latest one Frontend AddGradeToolTips FrontendRenameFunctionNameForClarity These are normal names I'm seeing in here Oh wait hold on Those are to the repo

itself not pull requests commits or branch commits Look at this one Yeah more Oops E Toast E pull requests commits or like branch commits. Yeah, look at this one. Yeah, more. Oops, e, toast, e, oops. Because those are not important. GitHub, there's a nice feature where you can squash as one commit.

So yeah, we just use that at the end. You know, we can discuss how maybe using a maleness isn't the best idea but Linus is right about some things you know maybe naming commits might actually might matter

I know you can squash things but like in cases where commits probably shouldn't be squashed maybe having sensible names actually does matter a little. Just a little bit. Yeah. If that is the case, then what I would do is I would just rebase to an older commit, copy the files to a new folder, remove all the commits,

write a new commit, like, you know, paste that folder and write a new commit. Then, you know, I just... Yeah, I do something like that, though. But we didn't have... We didn't run into an issue that does just that. So it's not a big deal for us,

at least yet. Well, yeah, if it's working and everyone's happy with it then just whatever it is what it is and yeah again like I switch from my laptop to desktop so I need a lot of my commits are incomplete so I have to do something like this well it works apparently since we're on the topic of programming there actually was something I started on

before I did my Java classes so I don't know if you've heard of this but there is a or at least there was a thing called Lego Mindstorms I've heard of that basically it is this like Lego Or at least there was a thing called LEGO Mindstorms. Never heard of that. Uh, basically it is this like LEGO robotics project. Like it's this- so LEGO would sell these like robotics kits, which would have like light sensors and gears and...

All of this fun stuff that you could all play around with. And sadly... Sadly, it's shutting down. After 24 years, it's actually shutting down. And this, it was a really neat way to get kids interested in robotics. Because, you know, you already like Legos. So, it's like, it's this very easy gap to clothes. But, I get it

because there's all, there is, like nowadays there is a lot of competition in this space like if you look up like introductory robotics kits for example, like there is so much available but, I don't know, a part of me is sad that this is shutting down makes me want to go and buy up

some of one of the newest Mindstorms stuff they have just for the memes. Well, is it because they went bankrupt? Well, it's part of LEGO, so I'm guessing they just killed the line because it just wasn't selling a lot.

Okay, I see. Oh, no, they actually have a newer one. Oh, okay, no, this is actually less depressing than I thought it was. So, they had Mindstorms and they also started something called Spike. So, I'm guessing they just had to kill the old

one and then focus on this new one. Okay, that's less sad than I thought it was. Okay, so it's like the successor? That's what it seems like from what I'm seeing. Mm. Okay, not bad then. Mm-mm-mm. But you were saying earlier about your experiences programming before you, like, sort of got into programming, you actually sat down and did it properly what we what did you mean by that like had you tried to like go through some

documentation or something and gave up like what really happened there yeah yeah it's basically that so because i had the mindset of like i was one of those people who were frightened by being called stupid by others. And so I tried to do everything myself where I would read documentation. And I just tried to do everything myself. I tried that a couple of times, but it was never successful. never successful um and so i just i was just like fuck it let me try something new at this point and yeah so i learned to actually ask help and this is something i realized like very quickly in development like i even said before you are it's inevitable like people will insult you absolutely yeah that is yeah that is just normal to happen what is important is that you actually handle it well

so and that's that's basically like what i'm trying to uh do it like i'm trying to uh handle insults every everything like that harassments uh better now um especially recently oh my god i i have no idea why um it's not new story yeah yeah just speaking of i mean this isn't really an insult or harassment or anything it's just like A big what the fuck moment So someone Like Someone

Submitted a merge request On bottles And what they did It's They essentially pulled Like they tried to pull a Lenny Where they removed The code of conduct

Oh my fucking god Wait actually let me check If i remember right yeah yeah they just removed the code a code of conduct um like look at the file random guy uh it's a contributor yeah so they just removed the code of conduct just out of nowhere, submitted a merge request and expected something. And I like how the type of change, it says bug fixed, which, what? But yeah, it's... Wait, so the code of conduct goes from this code of conduct to contributions much appreciated.

Okay. First commit. Second commit. Oh, okay. So that's deleting the code of conduct, and then third commit is, welcome to the bottles community, uh, grant and indulge critique constructively within desired privacy, uh, settle disputes within these confines, finding yourselves unable Email send To Mirko the project maintainer

And all the commits Are called Snimple snuffles Yes Okay How is removing our COC an improvement Code of conducts aren't Authoritarian

Canome's code of conduct is actually quite base, not gonna lie. Wait, did this person reply to here? Oh, here we go. Oh, god, they wrote an essay. Yeah. It removes an expectancy from what is an actual navigation of

social hierarchy. It then makes everyone subject to the code of conduct the sections on considerations being welcoming and friendly are additionally additionally meaningless it is closed immediately following maintainer questioning what the fuck am i reading yes the answer is yes that's basically what you're reading but yeah those types like even if they're not harassment even if they're not attacking you i mean actually i actually consider this as an attack but you will get merge requests you will get issues with things like that it is so so yeah again like the best thing that we should do is as a developer is to learn

how to handle those issues rather than um avoid them but yeah that's what at first like when i tried to get started with programming i tried to avoid getting harassed getting attacked by people um which in turn is the reason why i never actually got started with uh well not never but at that time that's why i didn't get started with programming um um because i just tried to avoid everything. But, uh... Yeah, sorry. What I was going to say is, with this COC thing,

I don't think it's a bad thing to try and remove the COC, but there's a very clear way you go about doing this, and there's a very clear way you don't. The way you go about doing this is you have a very clear way you don't the way you go about doing this is you have a discussion with the maintainers and you discuss the merits of whether it should exist or it shouldn't exist the way you don't do it is submit a merge request out of nowhere and like

i'm just gonna delete it like that's not how that works yeah um so we want to get bottles in gnome circle and one of the requirements is to have decoder conduct there right right um so if we plan to remove the code of conduct there's no way that we can get it into bottles uh sorry into a circle yep so yeah there's a very very low likelihood that we are going to remove or even consider removing it because right now one of our priorities is to get it on gnome circle um we're slowly it's been like we first opened like made the request six months ago but um and we started focusing well by we i wasn't a bottles developer at that time but they started working on other things um bug fixes whatever um yeah now we're actually finally trying putting uh putting work to gnome circle inclusion and yeah it's I think it's a good thing

I like the code of conduct I understand some places parts of the code of conduct might sound just unwelcoming to certain types of people but it's also

important to really really protect minorities because they're subject to getting harassed more than others. That makes sense. Oh, I see. Especially, yeah, I remember I talked to some GNOME, former GNOME Foundation members. They told me that they left GNOME because they were getting harassed by people. Some of them were trans uh people they said that they got transphobic comments um

they got a lot of like you know spam uh transphobic comments um they were getting harassed like often so they stopped especially how gnome is a a target for trolls and for assholes um so that person told me that they left gnome for that reason which is really really sad like you know it's not it's not something that people should be doing and i think that giving more like protecting minorities more than the majority is a good thing because again they're the ones who are more in target than the majority no matter what the reason behind you being an asshole is a lot of people treat the internet basically as like this i guess this cloak where they it doesn't matter what is done on it it's's like, oh, I can...

I can say stuff that I would never say to your face because the internet is here and because there are these avatars between us. Behind a monitor. Exactly, yeah. It's very easy to sort of dehumanize someone when you're not directly talking to them face to face but uh

you mentioned the Lenny situation just a little bit before have you paid any attention to what's been going on with Lenny's refill at this point because it's it's great. Let me guess. He's just saying things like oh, we fucked up. I know it.

Please come back. We need more developers. But on the GitHub, nothing's happened. There have been like seven commits since he kicked everyone out. Good. Honestly, good.

I'm glad for that. Sorry. Nine commits. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, eleven. Okay, he's done eleven commits. There was one other person who... How big are they? Uh, well, a lot of them are documentation changes.

Of course they are. Documentation changes and changing API keys. I think actually... Let's see, how many are not... So we have a... Okay, there's a bug fix. Two bug fixes.

There's about... Okay, it's about half bug fixes. Okay. I don't know what he... On the Discord, he was like, oh, you know, maybe doing that was not the most optimal of things to do.

It was such a bad idea. Like, how... How do you... How do you think for even a second that kicking everybody out of the project is going to

do anything productive for its future like it doesn't matter if you're kicking them out because they're all left wingers or they're all right wingers like it's just as bad no matter which way you're doing it. You're showing yourself to not be trustworthy if you're willing to

kick people out over things that have nothing to do with the project. And the fact that then everyone leaves doesn't surprise me. Plus, even worse, there aren't any potential contributors as well there's like one mod he has on the discord and what i've noticed is there's a lot of people who are like in support of what lenny did they're like lenny you're so base this is the most base thing you could ever do but none of them are helping to develop the code so it seems like he has support

but in reality he's thrown away all of the potential developers yeah and then there's prism launcher just continuing and like nothing happened the day after they had a new launch and now they're just like what PolyMC never heard of it they literally didn't stop developing they just kept doing what they're doing I think it's better I think Prism Launcher is a really nice name as well

either way it was a PolyMC is not a bad name but Prism Launcher you know they're it- it- they're both fine names. I didn't really have an issue either way. Um, what I will say is, regardless of which project we're talking about, there's no- like, you're not getting any value out of trolling them. Like, I've seen a lot of troll, um, issues and pull requests on, um, PolyMC, and I've seen a bunch of the same on Prism MC like people being like hey let's delete the code of conduct on Prism MC now and No matter which way you're doing it. You're not being productive

just like Look leave the projects alone If if all you have to do to contribute to it is just like post a troll pull request, just go do something else. Do something else productive with your day. Nah, that involves work. That does involve work, yes. Imagine working.

Go do CS50 or something. I don't know. Anything else. Go learn to program and then actually make real pull requests. Yes. It's dumb. Indeed. It's really dumb either way.

Yep. I'm going to be really surprised if one poly MC actually continues. And if it does continue, if they ever actually get a flat pack again because I know that I know that Lenny was saying that he was like working on making a flat pack yeah he was gonna four days ago he was saying he was working

on making one but I don't think any Four days ago, he was saying he was working on making one. But I don't think any progress is going to happen with that one. Funnily enough, there's already a poly MC flatback on Flathub that you can literally just copy and paste. I'm not joking. Right, because it was deprecated, so he could just take what was already there and just continue with it

you don't have to do anything just keep doing what was already there oh my god I love it so stupid it's okay at least hopefully PolyMC isn't really relevant. It isn't relevant anymore because Prism Launcher is obviously the successor.

And they're actually doing work, which I completely respect them for that. But yeah, it's, I guess, them for that. But yeah, it's I guess good for Lenny. Yeah, I guess good for Lenny. You successfully destroyed your own project. Oh, it's so good. Actually, speaking of funny things that happened,

I saw this posted over on r slash Linux yesterday. So you know how there is this whole big argument about whether apps should have quote unquote ads in it where it's like a message advertising whatever their

support services or whatever this popped up let me check what the fuck This popped up. Let me check. What the fuck? We're having trouble finding that site. Interesting. For some reason, the link wasn't working, so it's just...

It's fine. Okay. News significant security update. Oh my god. I love this. For anyone just listening, news about significant security update. Oh my god. I love this. For anyone just listening, news about significant security updates, features and services will appear here to

raise awareness and perhaps tease r slash linux. I like that. They get so angry about this existing. I really don't know. It's not like they're advertising Fords. Like, it's apt news.

It's related to things involved with what Canonical is doing. And you can turn it off. Yeah, I was going to say, like, there's nothing wrong with what they're doing. I think it's okay like i fully support you know making their work uh more accessible like if that makes sense you know um especially the thing with ubuntu pro people hate it on it but i'm pretty sure it's free if i remember right is it free one two pro um but even then like i think it's free if I remember right. Is it free? Bantu Pro? But even then, I think it's okay what they did because they're not forcing you to do it.

And even then, Bantu is designed or kind of designed for the average person or for newcomers. So even then, forcing newer technologies is fine you will hear many people say oh snap suck because it's being pushed on ubuntu well i agree the first part that that snap suck but i don't agree that for other reasons yeah but the fact that it's being pushed i think that's completely fine and you know i i encourage um distro maintainers to do that um because especially for the average person they don't

really understand how those stuff work so it's it's fine to push newer technologies the issue is is that ubuntu, like Canonical, they're pushing the wrong technology. That's the problem, not the fact that they're pushing a technology. So, what's it called? SteamOS or EndlessOS, for example,

or even MicroOS, they push Flathub and Flatpak. That's good. You know, we need more of those stuff um we need more distributions that push newer technologies so that that there are more testers there are more you know just for the benefits of uh long-term benefits of the linux desktop yeah yeah i'm sorry i'm starting all stuttering no no it's fine fucking it's of the Linux desktop. Yep, yep. I'm sorry, I'm stuttering a lot. No, no, it's fine.

Fucking is not my strongest point. Yeah. It's fine, it's not mine either. I just happen to run a YouTube channel. It's all good. Yeah. But yeah, I think what they did, there's nothing wrong with it.

I think, like, when I heard about the the ads in apt i thought it was something like i thought it was something a lot more serious than what i'm seeing i hadn't actually looked into it because it i don't care about ubuntu but the fact they're just being like hey you can get ubuntu pro and that's it like it's also trolling r slash linux which also i appreciate uh because i kind of deserve it um yeah it's it's dumb it's just dumb like i i get the the linux fear about anything possibly involving um possibly involving ads but this is not the same thing as like a youtube video ad or like some sort of data collection this is just a link telling you that something exists yep and i just looked at ubuntu pro's website it's free for personal use so anyone can use ubuntu pro for free on up to five machines what even is it so i have no idea but what's

important is that um currently public beta uh secure i guess it's like quickest security updates or something okay it i guess it's lts on steroids 10 years security coverage so yeah so it's just lts of lts at this point right right um that is actually cool that is actually really cool yeah I don't think that's fine especially now like we know it's free for personal use and well you can pay for you know for more machines

but this is free and I think that's fine well it's not the same complaints about Red Hat as well like Red Hat makes all of their stuff basically free for um all of the stuff that matters to the regular user free for the regular user it's not until we start getting into the corporate space where you actually have to start paying for stuff which i think is a perfectly fine way to do stuff but I'm not against companies making money I know

I know some people some people don't like that uh and they just want everything to be this like pure community driven FOSS thing but I I think I I like I like devs getting paid I know it's a hot take but I like developers getting paid money and being able to pay their rent so if you can find a way to monetize a foss system that isn't harmful to the regular uh to the regular user i don't think that's a bad thing yeah it gets even better when they hire people who actually like foss open source um so and that's because see i'd love to get hired by a company to work on open source projects i'd really love to have this opportunity because I love open source. And having this really nice benefit where you can full-time work on open source projects

is a wonderful, like, it's really nice. I mean, yeah, as you say, I'm in favor for that. And especially Red hat developers like they they're really clear that they do care about open source um and especially when we look at something like fedora people say that fedora is just red hat oh it's um upstream rail i mean yeah it is upstream rail but they're like oh it's a testing ground for rail this is like such a stupid statement like there is some truth to that but in reality fedora isn't just a testing ground for rail it's a testing ground for the linux desktop it's thanks to fedora it's thanks to the community not just red hat Hat, but to us, to people who are willing to test software for Fedora, at least for the Linux desktop in general.

It's thanks to them that we have SystemD right now, that we have Pipewire, that Wayland is finally getting usable. Yeah. For better or worse, Fedora will get things out to the general public. Because they started shipping Wayland way too early. Yep.

And I think that's okay, because Fedora, they don't advertise to be user-friendly. And as much as YouTubers say, which is really unfortunate, YouTubers, actually, as a Fedora contributor myself, I will say that Fedora Linux is not user-friendly. I do recommend it for people,

but I do provide guidance like, oh, you might want to change that. You might want to change this because they don't have the best defaults. And I also tell the user that you might want to change this because you know they don't have the best defaults um and i also tell the user that you might run into issues because there's like fedora they want to push newer technologies and you might have problems with that um so yeah i let them know but youtubers or not just youtubers but you know uh bloggers like, many people recommend and they say they mislead people, newcomers, and say that, oh, Fedora is user-friendly.

Sure, it might be user-friendly today, but it doesn't mean it will be user-friendly tomorrow because it will have something internally changed. like something internally changed um so and you know people then you'll um i mean at least in my experience i find many people say yeah but people have been saying like uh fedora is user friendly but it's not i've had problems well of course you did because people who recommended you like they they falsely it was a false advertisement sounds like you have a problem with some youtubers yeah honestly i mean kind of yeah it's i've been really like i've been um thinking of making my own youtube channel so i can just debunk so many of those shit um and even i have um recently just a month ago i made a um

um and i i wrote an article about what to not recommend to fatback users because there are many youtubers actually not just youtubers but again blog writers as well who recommend things to flatback users to do to do stuff that they shouldn't do um do you know the gtk theme variable yes yeah i've discussed this before so that is a debug variable and most themes do not work on the bad way to apps so if you're using a gtk3 app and you're using gtk gtk theme variable to override to like to use another theme sure it might work at that time but once that application application migrates to GTK4 plus LibAdwaita, then your application will be broken. That is, it is going to happen. And especially because the way that people recommended it, they didn't say that it's a debug variable.

They didn't say that, oh, it should be reverted later down the road. They're just saying that, oh, it's made to change the theme, but they're not saying that it's made for debugging purposes. Hold on, let me show you an issue. Always in bottles. Hold on. Actually, give me a second. Broken. Okay, there we go.

I'm pretty sure the last time that I discussed this, I did talk about it. I think I just briefly mentioned... Because people will say, like, you can't theme LibAdwaiter. I brought up as just a bunch of things as a, like, hey hey here are these you know gnome people that are using libadwaiter and theming it and i think i did mention it as a

debug variable but i i don't really focus too much on the theming side anyway um oh god what the hell's going on here yeah that's what happens um because libAdwaita, since it's an extension and most themes aren't made for LibAdwaita, so they just apply the GTK3 or GTK4 parts, but not the LibAdwaita part. Right, right, right. Because that's completely removed. So yeah, it looks completely broken as we can see here. But yeah, users will run into this issue eventually if they do so uh use the gtk theme variable um yeah that's why i have like grudge from youtubers and from blog writers or just people

recommending those stuff because they just read like the first sentence in the arch wiki then they immediately i mean i would say that it's part of arch wiki's fault um as like the writers or like whoever contributed to it um or the it's very misleading or it's incomplete so people get the wrong impression to be fair with this there are users who are doing the same thing and are having a good experience with it so it can certainly seem like

it is it is working like it should so it's not entirely just people promoting this users are trying this and having good results for certain applications? And for certain themes that are actually updated to support LibEdwaiter stuff, because that is a thing that apparently you can do.

Yeah. So it's likely that the theme they used, uh, Colloid, Steel, Dark, Compact, Nord, this probably supports the bad way, though. Yeah, yeah. But, still, like, people think that, like, pointing to a newer widget, like, a newer version of the widget, Toolkit, I mean, will just perfectly perfectly work fine or they're not going to expect any consequences so I didn't really want to call anyone out on this article

so I just avoided doing that but this was suddenly a direct response from a video who made some of those recommendations. But yeah. What the fuck?

No, I just opened up YouTube and the entire website looks different. Oh no. Is YouTube changing stuff I mean YouTube changes every like 10 minutes yeah I don't know this point I don't know if you're all gonna be seeing the new theme but what the fuck okay sure no I don't see any differences on my end okay Okay, maybe it's just on...

On my side, then. Because I... Probably you're just, uh... They like to roll things out in, like, testing groups. Yeah. I don't like it. Yeah, I was just gonna say that you're a beta tester. Hmm.

I've missed a couple of recent ones, like... Uh... Gifting memberships and things like that so I guess finally they're gonna use me as their guinea pig again keyword again yeah again

it wasn't gonna stop that's for sure it was just gonna take a bit of a a brief break but yeah a brief break but yeah the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the that libadwaiter couldn't be themed like all together like it breaks theming and it's it's gonna do all that which just isn't true because they're looking at an alpha of the api and it just didn't support stuff yet because it was an alpha because that's what alphas do but now it's sort of going the other direction. And something that no one ever mentions

is that LibAdvaita is, at the end of the day, CSS. So what you can do, if I remember the directory right, it's.config slash gtk4.css. Here you can change every single aspect of the Badweta. The effects, the colors, animation size, whatever it is, you name it, you can change in that file. Because the Badweta, you know, it's all CSS. So, it's really stupid to say that you can't theme like it's just really dumb and even even then theming in general holy shit it's inherently a hack

people don't understand that it's even when we look at kd theming, like QT theming, people say, oh QT theming works fine. No, it does not. Just give me a second. Let me bring you some nice... Hold on. Just give me a second. What are you going to show me? Oh, some really, really cursed stuff.

Just give me a second. Sure, sure. I can only... Yeah, I'm really cursed stuff. Um, just give me a second. Sure, sure. I can only- I don't know what I should be expecting here. It can only be something bad. Spoiling alert, just cringe. Okay, sure. Okay, hold on. There we go. Look at-

Look at beautiful themes. Oh god. Yep, okay. Open up this one. That looks like some of my applications. Okay, here we go. I have got too many tabs open. Okay, so let's go to the first one. Some sort of document editor by the looks of it. You can barely read the new file button. There's clearly no... Oh, is this a... Yeah, it's a code editor. There's...

Yep, okay. Then the file manager here. Dolphin, I guess? The background of the file window is all white but the text is still like a light gray some of the icons are black on the dark gray background the icons that are available i don't like the icons anyway um. But that's a whole other issue. They definitely don't fit with the overall design that's there, though.

And then the final one... Yeah, it's using GNOME's icons. Is that what those are? Yeah. It looks nice on Nautilus, at least in my opinion. Then this last one is a terminal... Okay, I thought it was another line that was like blending into the background

this is just disgusting yep people say that QTE theming works just fine well it doesn't because at the end to be fair a bad theme works just as badly regardless if it's GTk or qt but if you're

putting that time to cross validate applications you can make it work it's just a lot of work to make it properly work yeah and the biggest problem is that it can never be on par or as good as the default theme because application developers, they will test with the default theme, not with a million custom themes. You can make an exception for applications that ship themes. So like, you know, OBS, for example, has like five different themes available.

Kdenlive has a bunch of themes like built in as well. Those you can make exceptions for because those have been tested by the developer. Yeah, I mean, like, for example, Breeze. Breeze comes by default on Plasma. And most KDE developers

will test it on Breeze. But if they try to use some other theme, they might run into a lot of issues. And it's normal. I'm not blaming theme developers. And that's exactly precisely... You know to stop theming my app website, right?

That's precisely why GNOME developers wrote this article. Because no matter how much work you put in a custom theme will never be as good as the default theme because because developer will be testing on the default theme not with the custom theme so if they change something it might work on the default theme but it might completely break on the custom theme so if they change something it might work on the default theme but it might completely break on the custom theme right and again like i'm not shitting on custom uh themers like the developers who do custom themes and even in the article they're not like they're they're

not even saying um sorry sorry i have to like cut myself off here. For some reason, people like to stop seeing my app and be like, look, GNOME doesn't care about users. Yeah, I know. The first thing they say, one of the first things they say in yellow or orange, I have nightlight on, so it's orange for me. Oh, okay, you're one of those people. Yes. 24-7 nightlight so but yeah there it says that it is

made for distributions not for tinkerers like they made it clear that it was not for tinkerers but people say still say that oh gnome doesn't care about their their users well the problem is like if users want to break uh their workflow or you know their their setup let them do so but don't that don't make the company do that automatically for you does that make sense yeah no that makes sense yeah so that's how i just had to rant a bit for that as I was saying some themes will never be as good as default themes for the reasons I mentioned but again like

this doesn't mean you shouldn't use any themes or whatever I stick with default themes as much as possible because I don't want to run into those issues I just showed you. Yeah, yeah. And especially when,

sure, it might work 95% of the time, but the problem, see, it's cool that it works 95% of the time, but the problem is it doesn't work 5% of the time. And when it doesn't work, it's a time and when it doesn't work it's a big big problem because themes um or style sheets this is all about accessibility if you fuck something up you will break accessibility or you will have a much you know there's a higher likelihood of breaking accessibility and thus potentially making the application unusable and with that developers you know they will often get the blame for that right even though it's a

theming issue so my god i i was i got lost uh what was i saying at the beginning? I don't know, that went on for a while. Yeah, anyways... Theming is bad. You're a bad person if you like themes. No, I think theming is fun. I think it's nice to experience this stuff. But I completely, 100% agree with Gnome that distros shouldn't be theming by default right the user do that and break it um in their own will yeah yeah and yeah like that myth where

qt theming is perfect it's excellent it works well well no it doesn't it doesn't Theming is perfect. It's excellent. It works well. Well, no, it doesn't it doesn't Well because steaming in general is a hack yeah Well unless you have some sort of The problem is CSS based steaming That's the main issue because when you have CSS steaming you can do a lot of stuff You probably shouldn't be able to do theming you can do a lot of stuff that you probably shouldn't be able to do when we have like a recolor api like that's what some would like normally think of when they're thinking of like theming and yeah you can break stuff with a recoloring api you can have like red text on a

red background like yeah you can do that but it limits the scope of what can be broken like you can't change button sizes to the point where things are going to completely fall apart and it's also um see you know kvantum or kvantum i don't have to say yes yes i do yeah so it works well for the most part, but see Plasma, recently they have those accent colors. Now, now that when a user

uses Kvantum's theme and then they try to use one of those accent colors, it breaks it. So, yeah, I don't blame KD, I don't blame blame kvantam like at the end this is really it's it's a really um it's really fragile and accent color is something that users really want and you know it's at this point it's kind of an essential feature. So, I think it's a good compromise

where, like, with GNOME, like, they're limiting some parts of theming, but at least what we get in return is, like, we get a lot more benefits from it. But, yeah. Yeah.

I think that's as good a point to end off the podcast as any we're just crossing I guess we're like 10 minutes over the 2 hour mark now oh my god and I have videos to record for the day still so I should get to that at some point

so um let the people know where they can find your work okay um let me just send my links uh where they can find your work. Okay, um... Alright, let me just send my links. I was not prepared

at all. I thought you were just gonna save them. Oh, um... Fair enough, um... Yeah, right. Oh, my master dot? Yeah, I forget So my Mastodon. Yeah, I forget. I forgot.

My bad. Yeah. Mastodon. Yes. There's my GitHub. My GitLab. My GNOME GitLab. And recently, my KDE GitLab as well.

Because I started contributing to KDE as well. So now I'll be more or less like, you're going to see me in some places, especially in quality assurance parts of KDE's GitLab. What else? I'll send you my YouTube channel as well because, again, I've been thinking of making YouTube videos.

Yo, yo. Who knows if I will actually make them or not, but hey, it's worth. That's fair. Yeah. I have some cursed videos about about my industry. Before you actually do a video on here with...

Wow you have a video about Linux on here that's impressive. You know from... Oh yeah yeah typical D&D Linux desktop just play play that. It's old Plasma on Wieland. What the hell has happened to you? I'm going to send you a picture of this. YouTube looks insane right now. Oh no. What am I seeing right now? What is this?

I guess that's what happens when you're a beta tester. What is happening to this browser window? Okay, then. Yep. Well, yeah. If you do end up making the videos, let me know, and I'll check them out.

Damn, I appreciate that. So is there anything else you wanted to mention, or is that pretty much it? Let's see, what else? Let's see... Oh yeah, there's my Reddit. Let's see what else... Let's see... Oh yeah, there's my Reddit. You're just gonna keep thinking of everything you can find, aren't you?

All the links are on your website. I'll put that in the description. Actually, yeah, right. Whoops. I've got the website oh yeah more importantly my website itself I'm so sorry I was not prepared for that where can you find that website what is the link to it oh lord

you can find that at theethoskeleton.gitlab.io I'm so sorry no it's fine Oh lord. You can find that at theethoskeleton.gitlab.io I'm so sorry. No, it's fine. As for me, unless you've got anything else you wanted to mention. No, I think everything is good. Okay. As for me, my main channel is Brody Robertson.

I do Linux videos there usually six times a week. I've got my gaming channel. That is Brodie Robertson. I do Linux videos there, usually six times a week. If you're, oh, I've got my gaming channel. That is Brodie Robertson Plays. We are almost finished with Cult of the Lamb and The World Ends With You. Honestly, by the time this comes out, I may have already finished The World Ends With You. Because I think there's like one or so streams left. If you're listening to the audio version of this, the video version is available on the YouTube at Tech Over Tea.

If you're watching the video version, the audio version can be found basically anywhere you can find an audio podcast. There's an RSS feed and if you stick it into whatever your favorite podcast app is, then you will be able to watch it wherever you go. Do you

have a final word that you want to say? Well, I guess goodbye, everyone. That's it. Okay. Bye. Goodbye.