Tech Over Tea - Let's Be Positive About GNOME | TheEvilSkeleton

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Today we have The Evil Skeleton back on once again to talk about flatpaks, the future of the Linux desktop and some other random topics as tends to happen on this show. =========Guest Links========== Blog: https://theevilskeleton.gitlab.io/blog Github: https://github.com/TheEvilSkeleton Gitlab: https://gitlab.com/TheEvilSkeleton Mastodon: https://fosstodon.org/@TheEvilSkeleton ==========Support The Show========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson =========Video Platforms========== 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBq5p-xOla8xhnrbhu8AIAg =========Audio Release========= 🎵 RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/149fd51c/podcast/rss 🎵 Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tech-over-tea/id1501727953 🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IfFpfzlLo7OPsEnl4gbdM 🎵 Google Podcast: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xNDlmZDUxYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== 🎵 Anchor: https://anchor.fm/tech-over-tea ==========Social Media========== 🎤 Discord:https://discord.gg/PkMRVn9 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TechOverTeaShow 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/techovertea/ 🌐 Mastodon:https://mastodon.social/web/accounts/1093345 ==========Credits========== 🎨 Channel Art: All my art has was created by Supercozman https://twitter.com/Supercozman https://www.instagram.com/supercozman_draws/ DISCLOSURE: Wherever possible I use referral links, which means if you click one of the links in this video or description and make a purchase we may receive a small commission or other compensation.

Good morning, good day, and good evening. I'm, as always, your host, Brody Robertson. Welcome back to the show. Today we have a returning guest. I... how many times have you been here? I don't remember. Uh, three times. Oh! That's the third time. Oh, this is the third time. Okay. Welcome back to the show, The Evil Skeleton. How's it going? I'm pretty well, and you? Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Have I ever asked you, like, where your name actually came from?

Why is that the name you use? Adi Waskelton? Yeah. Oh, that was, like, a decade ago or more, actually, when I used to play Minecraft. And, yeah, like, I got the name Adi Waskelton because I felt a little bit creative at the time and I was like

okay well that's a pretty cool name I guess at least the 12 year old me and then nowadays I'm like yeah I want to stick with it it's it you know it's like nostalgic for me yeah no no I know I know exactly the feeling like uh the name that I'm using is from back when I used to play Call of Duty when I was like 14. I just never changed it. And then I used the same name on RuneScape for a while as well. And it had some slight variations to it, but it's pretty much been the same name the entire time.

Look, I could think of something new, but it's going gonna sound just as cringe anyway so I might as well just stick with the cringe I know hell yes cringe with nostalgia exactly so how you been doing what have you been getting up to

yeah well not really much I guess I kind of dropped out like like, left the Bottles project because it was, like, really affecting my mental health because of all the problems we were having. But other than that, I've been focusing mainly on GNOME Calendar

and, to some extent, gnome settings as well um yeah like for for gnome calendar like i'm adding a few features uh fixing some bugs and doing a lot of uh like code related improvements and with gnome settings i I just, like, yeah, like, I just, there was this one time when I, like, submitted 10 merge requests within, like, two hours. Okay. Yeah, so, like, the thing is, so, GNOME settings is a massive project, right? Right, right. is a massive project right so if you want to port let's say you want to port a widget to another widget like it's going to be like many hundreds of lines of code right so like you have to split them up and that's like literally what happened like shit that's i went to like each panel like each page and changed from the old i think i found the ones that port

adw switch row and then like 10 commits all with different parts yeah exactly okay yeah so yeah what were you trying to do there what was the goal of that okay so um so like when we look at the bed wada um there is um there is an action where like just a row and in that you put a switch in like you know a little switch and the way that like we used to do it is that we we used to add the action row and then the switch manually and then link them and all that. But that new widget, like ADW switch row, does all of that automatically. So you just need to bind the enable and disable switches and you're basically done. enable and disable switches and you're basically done. It's like a lot of reduction in code and a lot of reduction in duplication as well.

It's, it was a nice, like it was annoying, but it was pretty cool. Like at the same time. Of all of the random aspects of GNOME, cause there's like a lot of like little components, why why is it GNOME settings and calendar that grabbed your attention?

Um, mainly because those two projects are like, I would say, the most cursed GNOME projects. Uh, yeah GNOME settings like it's in many ways like I'm not blaming the developers and the maintainers like it is just naturally a disaster. Well it's they're both really old projects aren't they? It's less about being old and more that like there's a lot to maintain and very little maintainers. Okay yeah. Hold on let me show you this printer dialogue. It's like it's like the GTtk2 days like old gnome it's something um

oh where is it printers printing options okay oh my god it is awful okay i i sent a screenshot that's how it looks like i mean i didn't touch that but that's just one of the examples what wait why does it wait it just looks like a gtk2 app that's been themed like a libadwaiter app exactly that that's the thing like it is it was like almost never touched like they're all old widgets and it's just awful for anyone who uh who's just listening um so you have like the the modern gtk4 header you're like gtk4 buttons in it but then the select on the left hand side is just a list of text like there's nothing special about it it's just it is as simple as a list as you can get it you know just think of what like a gtk2

app would be and then just throw modern uh design elements into it and just see what happens yeah so yeah like that's just one of the cursed areas and now like i don't want to touch that i'm gonna be honest i don't want to touch that like area of the code but it's also that like i only where i can install and run as a flat pack because like gnome settings does run inside a flat pack but it's very limited uh. So where I can run it as a Flatpak, I do the changes and all that because I don't want to start a toolbox container and install an experimental version of LibidOita

and then just break my head over that. So I just do as much as I can. And with GNOME Calendar, one of the reasons is because of Georges. I think he's just a wonderful person. And so I decided to be like, okay, let me help this guy and his project. But it's also that there's's at least at the time a lot of the um gnome calendar stuff were like half ported to gtk4

plus the bedweta like there is still a lot of old widgets being used. There are also a lot of accessibility issues. And, like, right now, like, as we, like, at least as of today, a known calendar is still very, very inaccessible. Like, you cannot use it with a keyboard at all. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's really sad. But it's not really the maintainer's fault like george's is literally the only code maintainer and i've looked at the code i'm like

i'm gonna be honest like i was i'm just fully impressed like this guy can single-handedly manage like at least in terms of code can um single-handedly manage GNOME calendars. At least to me, it's really crazy. But, like, I don't blame him that, you know, it has poor, well, it is literally not accessible because he is the only maintainer. And, like, I do want to put some... If he worked on one project,

but he also, like, is involved in OBS and portals and a bunch of other things. If he was just the GNOME Calendar maintainer and that's all he did, I'm sure he'd be in a much better state. But, you know, he has to get involved in everything else as well. Yeah, exactly. And it's just, yeah, I mean, I'm still really happy of this work. Like, GNOME Calendar is my favorite GNOME app so far. Which is funny because I used to never use a calendar app until I tried GNOME Calendar and I started contributing to it. So, like, I guess that's a really nice benefit for me now.

I guess that's a really nice benefit for me now. But it's also that I think it's the only calendar app that isn't overwhelming for me. Oh yeah, and another thing with GNOME Calendar that is not exactly in a great state is that it's not mobile-friendly either, which is usually expected from a Libetweida app. But it's also that he is the only maintainer and hardly anyone wants to contribute to a calendar app,

to be honest. But yeah, so I ported a few stuff to the latest widgets. I fixed a few bugs. I also recently added a little, what's called a separator for each month. Hold on, let me send a link. OK. OK.

OK. Yeah, so you can see like. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, so like you can see like in each month there are a little bit like separators and that's one of the things I added in the app and yeah. Little stuff like that.

Very nice like additions and yeah. That's very much what I've been involved in in GNOME so far. Very nice, like, additions. And, yeah. That's very much what I've been involved in in GNOME so far. And sometimes... Yeah, sorry. And sometimes just a few, like, accessibility-related contributions, like, here and there. Like, in, I think, GNOME Clocks, I added a little label, for example, and just little stuff like that.

So you mentioned that you didn't really use an accessible calendar app, sorry, a calendar app before you started working on Gnome Calendar. Were you just someone who didn't use a calendar altogether? Do you use it in an email client? I personally don't use a calendar i should right i i write down when these podcasts are in a text document um yeah what about yourself yeah no i used to never like not use anything like i used to just try to remember something and hope to fucking god like i would

remember it later i did that and then i had four podcasts in one week i was like i can't do that anymore not happening oh no and then like i mean as someone with adhd it's or like at least not adhd like but um um a lot of adhd traits it's uh like i'm not exactly organized and i forget a lot of things and you know my mind is everywhere so like yeah my keeping stuff in my head didn't really work right and every calendar app i tried using was just like too much happening on my face do you want to mention any names or you don't want to mention any projects um well there was uh what's called a windows like calendar apps well yeah those i feel like there's like so many features like just too many things going on right right um yeah and like with gnome calendar

like i just expected it to be the same thing so i never really tried it until i started contributing to it so like you know when i was testing the app i was actually using it and then i started realizing that okay wow this this app is really something like like it's actually made for me um so that that's why i started using uh gnome calendar and i think i it hasn't even been a year so like all this time i was just trying to keep stuff to my head like i was just trying to keep stuff to my head. Like, I was just trying to remember everything. Yeah, I know that feeling very well. Yeah. You also mentioned accessibility in there,

and I've got a podcast I'm doing in a couple of weeks from now that I think you might find interesting. There's this guy who hit me up who is a blind game developer, and he's tried out gnome and no matter how many times he tries out gnome tries out kde he always ends up back on windows and there's always just a couple of like sticking points that simply don't work i haven't actually had the conversation yet but i'll let you know when that comes out if you want to check it out for yourself because i'm sure there's going to be a

lot that can be learned from that because whilst there are a lot of people working on accessibility stuff it seems like a lot of people that work on it aren't people that need the tooling and if you like oh it's someone who actually needs it yourself you're going to have like a different perspective on what needs to be done and sort of like what those pain points are yeah um that's the thing like i've um shit uh how do i say this it's like i always found gnome's accessibility to be bad and i'm not blaming the developers but it is the best that we have right and like yeah and we also have like uh that screen uh what is it called uh orca yeah and stuff like that yeah yeah and you know like if you turn on the screen reader the voice is just yikes it's just like no it sounds like some bot from like 2005.

Like, but once again, I'm not blaming developers. It's just in the unfortunate state that we're in, like, you know, the lack of contributors and all that. But yeah, like that's one of the reasons why like I try to do my best with accessibility. And that's like, you know, I try to use with a keyboard only. right to do my best with accessibility and that's like you know i try to use with a keyboard only and yeah it's it's just like in many places it's hit or miss sometimes i try to bump accessibility accessibility related issues and merge requests and stuff like that and i also like am thinking of well at least i was fixing a lot of accessibility stuff in gnome calendar

but obviously it still has like a long way to go and yeah it's yeah it just sucks honestly that like we're in that situation where uh gnome is the best that we have in terms of accessibility and yeah that's the thing. Like with Windows, you know, there are, I'm pretty sure there are actual blind people or like, you know, people in need of accessibility who are actually working on the accessibility stuff. So yeah, it is fair that the person

is going back to Windows all the time. My understanding is- But I do appreciate- Oh, don't. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, this is delayed. I do appreciate... Sorry, this is delayed. I do appreciate... But I do appreciate

that they're trying GNOME over and over again, or KDE, or just Linux in general. I think that's wonderful. My understanding is things used to be a lot better in... Not a lot better, like, the focus on accessibility was a lot better back in the early days of Linux, but now a lot better, like the focus on accessibility was a lot better back

in the early days of Linux, but now a lot of that funding has shifted into other locations and like, considering how much better Windows is at this point, there's just not as much of a focus on doing it. I know Red Hat a couple of years ago, maybe like a year or two ago, did hire someone specifically to work on GNOME who, I want to say they were, I want to say they, they were blind. I might be, I might be mistaking it. I'm not sure what specifically their condition was, um, but was hired to specifically work on accessibility. I don't know how that ended up going, what they've ended up doing, but the issue is just, you know,

there's so much stuff to work on in the FOSS space, and most people doing it are volunteers. And, you know, if you're a volunteer, you're going to work on the things that you're particularly interested in. And most people aren't interested in working on a calendar. That's why there's hardly any contributors. Most people aren't interested in working on a calendar. That's why there's hardly any contributors. Most people aren't interested in working on accessibility stuff.

They'd rather go work on some like new exciting feature. I don't know, a window blur or something. I don't know, something like that. Like something they find personally interesting. And whilst it's great that we've gotten so far with the way that we do things in the FOSS world there's always going to be those areas which just don't get as much focus. I'm genuinely impressed with how good translations are in the FOSS world. Like that's that by itself is already impressive

but there's still a lot of areas that are not getting the time and development they need. Yeah I mean i'd say as well like i mean i can't really comment on accessibility in the past um because i wasn't using links back then like right 10 years ago uh but at least like the only thing like i will assume is that the state of accessibility now and like 10 years before or even 20 years before we're like i'd say they're like it's very possible that they are like very like similar like at least how do i say this like it didn't have a lot of advancements right like yeah it's basically as

good as it was yeah yeah exactly like so 20 years ago it's like you know it was considered good but fast forward 20 years later that's it's not good anymore like right yeah that's how i see it because a lot of accessibility stuff are like very old and haven't been they haven't really changed um there is somewhat and like about the person working on accessibility his name is lucas uh let me let me send his uh let me find his uh Let me send his... Let me find his... Like, his Mastodon thing. Awesome. Because I didn't follow up with what was going on at the time when that happened.

Yeah, okay. This person. I did talk to him a few times. And he does he does contribute a lot to like Gnome's accessibility it's really nice and he does work at Red Hat

yeah okay I wasn't sure if I got the details correct but yeah it's been a little bit but no that is awesome that it's done the same problem with really like any problem like the hdr issue for example like that's been that's been an issue for so long and

it's only just now starting to get dealt with because you know people are working on other things and like it's understandable but it would be nice if more things could be worked on and like more of these little issues that are not little what we're called like a it's a small problem with a big impact i guess like you know adding in really good keyboard support for example like that's a small problem but the people that that will impact is like absolutely massive yeah or like good magnifying tools for example yeah or a good like voice the screen reader voice thing yeah i don't know what you do about that problem i don't know yeah it's magic look maybe maybe the ai voice synthesis stuff in some way helps with that but then you start getting into like weird like licensing stuff and

i don't i don't know where that's gonna end up going because that would solve the problem fairly easily but we're all already like there's a lot of weird lawsuits that are happening regarding that. It's really unclear, like, what exactly the state of the tech's going to be and how different jurisdictions are going to handle it. Like, what are you going to be allowed to do with it? How are you going to have to disclose it's being used? All of this stuff is still very much, very much being dealt with right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and there's also this other person.

His name is... Wait, hold on a minute. His name is Matt Campbell. Mm-hmm. And he does a lot of accessibility stuff as well. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you've ever read his articles. Very possibly.

He's working on AccessKit. He's also working on Wayland Accessibility. By a crazy amount. Here's a link. This person is amazing as well. Updates on my Wayland Accessibility work. Current draft protocols, uh, this link here. The provider application and consumer protocols are now separate. We may still end up going with D-Bus for the consumer side. Uh, okay.

Oh yeah, I did check out this one earlier, yes. Yeah, that would trigger yeah pro bono he's gonna make his own uh um i guess quote unquote standard like of all that like right i can understand concerns with like systemd i don't agree with them i can understand them i don't know how anyone has an issue with dbus like what possible problem could you have with dbus i get that some people don't like dbus and instead go for dbus broker but nobody's arguing against the doss protocol may you might have implementation issues but what distro is not using deboss besides like the weird like niche ones that a lot of stuff doesn't work on anyway yeah uh i'm not sure if deboss is the thing on BSD. So I guess. Fair enough.

I would assume that. I don't know much about BSD, but I guess to some extent that might be a problem. As far as I know, Wayland isn't really focused. They're not really focused on BSD. So yeah,

that's bad for them i guess yeah that it's weird like the way london bsd stuff is interesting right because xorg or x11 specifically was developed at a very different time x11 was developed when linux didn't exist like we were still very much in the true Unix world. BSD was starting to appear. It was still fairly new. But, like, it was a thing that worked across every Unix system. Because across all these Unix systems, we all had, like, some fairly basic agreements. Even before POSIX, like, there were some standards that were agreed upon.

basic agreements even before POSIX like there were some standards that were agreed upon but now with as we're moving into Wayland you're seeing a lot of the implementations do things that are specific to Linux and I understand that that's concerning for the BSD guys but I think they also have to remember that BSD is such a tiny tiny tiny part of the Linux world, of the Unix world, that, yeah, if Gnome, for example, is going to make some design decision that doesn't out of the box just work on BSD, it would be nice if that was taken into consideration, but at the end of the day it is such a niche consumer that they sort of have to... they have to change what they're doing to more align with what Linux

is doing, and that is what's actually happening. Like, the BSD guys were initially fairly apprehensive, but now that, you know, Red Hat's pulling out of X.Org, things are slowly starting to change over on that side obviously freebsd's had support for wayland for a while openbsd actually now has uh some initial support for sway i believe netbsd might be doing some stuff as well so it is slowly catching up over there but they're very much like a good 5-10 years behind where the Linux world is in regards to Wayland Sport at this point. Yeah, and there's, like, pretty sure that systemd doesn't really work on BSD, like, by default, or, like... So, yeah.

And Flatpak, obviously, that's not... It's a Linux-only thing. And they really do not care about BSD, as far as I know. Which, I mean, to be honest, I don't really care about BSD. So, yeah, it's whatever for me. I'm pretty sure it's like that for most people as well. Because at some point, you got like move on and be like okay like if we want to advance something like we're not gonna like we're not gonna block ourselves just because like you guys

are like 20 years behind you know like we're just gonna move on right yeah the like bs like as i was saying before about, you know, not being able to work on certain things, BSD suffers from the exact same problem, where they just don't have the user base and don't have the developer base that exists over on the link side. So things are just naturally going to move slower, and especially now as Wayland is moving a lot quicker

than it had been before. Obviously, we've had discussions about protocols before and you've probably seen my videos about issues that have taken multiple years to deal with when it's something basic

like screen capture things like that or we've all seen the discussions on screen tearing, um, screen tearing, for example. Screen tearing is one of my favorites. But even though things are taking a long time to get through those discussions, discussions are happening and problems are being dealt with and things are moving really quickly. And I don't know...

Here's the thing right I don't know when the Linux world is going to be primarily it's almost primarily Wayland the last time I did a poll it was like 45 55 I'm curious to see oh wait yep what's 45% like is that Wayland or or X11 I believe Weyland was 45 wow I mean that's still damn I'm surprised I expected like 15%

to be fair it's to my audience so maybe it's skewed but there was like 10,000 responses so I don't know um my numbers are the only ones that exist I kind of wish that 10,000 responses, so... I don't know. Is there any... My numbers are the only ones that exist. I kind of wish that

Fedora did a widespread poll or Ubuntu did a widespread poll just to sort of see what their numbers are actually like. But at least amongst my audience, yeah, it's like 45-55. At least as of mid-last year. I'm curious to see how long it ends up taking for like the mainstream distros to be wayland only not wayland first because that's what a lot of them are already

doing but wayland only or at least like wayland as like the at least uh in the installer for example you can choose between having wayland only or having an option like that i could see that happening first um i know katie uh fedora katie is doing it fedora i don't know if mainline fedora is doing it i know there was discussions about doing it um but at least fedora katie is doing it. Yeah, that's good. I hope GNOME does that as well. Mm-hmm. I'm so, like, I don't know when it's gonna, like,

imagine, like, wait until Ubuntu drops X11. Like, that's, like, I don't know when it's gonna happen. It's gonna be in a few years, though. Like, it's happening. That's the thing. Like, I, if you asked me a couple of years ago, I didn't think this was gonna happen anytime soon like there was so many problems that still existed but like we're getting there now like it's actually happening yeah finally and i don't know if you've

uh you saw it but um budgie is aiming to go wayland only very very soon like i think budgie is going to be the first testament environment that is wayland only yeah um i'm aware joshua is insane i've i've talked to him i think he's a crazy person to do this going from no wayland to wayland only in a year but sure if you want to try it man go ahead yeah um yeah there's uh i mean there's also cosmic that is that will be wayland only or is wayland only okay that's fair there is not i actually forgot i last week of System76 on, I forgot about Cosmic. Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, I'm not going to comment on that, I guess.

It's fine. It's fine. Carl watches the show. He'll be okay with it. Yeah. But like, yeah, we are moving real quickly. And... The issue with that is there's still a lot of

issues to be dealt with i've talked about multi-window stuff obviously but even just on the portal front there's still like general issues need to be dealt with like on w roots you have the window capture stuff for example but and then like on on the gnome front as well there are obviously issues that are like that still need to be dealt with i know um they are getting things like variable refresh rate working though which is nice to see finally well like what well until it got raided by 4chan until it got raided by 4chan and we had to lock the issue and all that wait what?

yeah it's uh um hold on you have a link to show me this I have not seen this what? I don't think I ever showed you that but it's like um like I did make a comment, and then it got into 4chan, and started, and people started, like, you know, sending, like, or, like, you know, just posting, uh, death and rape threats at me.

Yep, that's, that's about right, 4chan. at me so yeah that's that's about right yeah so like i had to lock my mastodon account and yeah it's still locked to this day and i'm not really sure if i should unlock it or not but yeah it's it wasn't fun um and yeah like and you know the sad part is like it's not really gnome's fault right like you know if it's being raided we have to lock it but a lot of people won't see the fact that it's being unlocked because of the raid they're just gonna see that it's locked and they're gonna be like see gnome doesn't care so that's it's just no matter what we do it's just a lose-lose situation which really sucks for GNOME at least. Right. No, no, I do get that. I'm at least glad it's a lot nicer on KDE's side

or in other desktop and window managers because they're not a heavy target like GNOME is. So at least I'm still happy for them. I've spoken to KDE devs and it's not like they don't get any of it it's just a lot less pronounced than it is with gnome oh yeah that's for sure uh i mean i remember i also witnessed someone or like not someone trolling in uh the kde wiki like they literally copy paste or something um i'm pretty sure i have an archive somewhere but it was uh it was basically unhinged and that's all i can say right right um

yeah and it's like the developers or like at least the sysadmins had to like revert the changes and all that it It wasn't fun. It really sucked. Yeah. But obviously, yeah. Yeah, sorry. No, I was going to say, I understand the, how do I say it?

I understand why people have a negative perception of GNOME. I don't understand why people go that far with it right like if you don't like the way that gnome operates or certain gnome developers discuss things that's all well and good i don't know why people go that far to like like just ignore the project like how difficult is it to just not interact with it to not go to the issue tracker to to just, like, if you want to rant about it, rant about it in your, like, private Discord server. Like, that's fine. Do it. Like, who cares? But, like, why go directly to

the developer's personal accounts and then, like, harass them there? Like, what are you doing? Yeah. It's, I mean, for them, it's like, they just want GNOME to be dead. Right. Because apparently, like, they take it as if GNOME murdered their family. Oh, yeah, it's like they just want gnome to be dead right because apparently like they take it as if gnome murdered their uh their family oh yeah it's yeah they just want gnome to be dead so they go harass

the developers and all that it's it's not fun yeah the way people like i don't know the way people communicate on the internet is very strange, right? Like, most... Now, some of these people might do it, because some of them seem pretty unhinged. But, like, most people wouldn't, like, call for someone's death, like, if they were speaking, like, face-to-face. You just wouldn't do that.

Like, that's just not a normal thing to do. Now, as I said, some of these people are very unhinged so Some of them might still do that But the majority of them I think just because they have the ability to say things online and oftentimes not have their name or face attached with it will just say Everything say anything they want. And 4chan's especially true for this.

People, whenever I get a post on 4chan, they send it to me. I have a fairly thick skin and can just deal with it. It's fun. I usually just have a good laugh at it. But they think I post some of the stuff there myself, which is always funny. Like, they have these, like, crazy theories

that Linux YouTubers use 4chan these, like, crazy theories that, uh, Linux YouTubers use 4chan to, like, farm content, which like, sure. If that's what you want to say, I literally go there to, like, ego view myself. I am only there to see when people post about me.

That is all. But 4chan is especially bad for this, where just say like the wildest shit that they don't believe themselves like that's the thing they are just saying it because they can say it because it's just like this is a wild thing to say let's see what sort of reaction we're gonna get yeah yeah it's i mean yeah like i said i mean for me like one of the nice things about fortune is that like it's something that is universally agreed to not take them seriously but it's just that sometimes it's like you know there are racist comments and like yeah just those kinds of

comments or like you know death threats and stuff like that that isn't really fun um to look at even if it's on 4chan it's at the same time it makes you wonder like if that person really like i'm not sure i have to say it's like what happened to them to be that way like you know so yeah it's at the same time i do feel bad whenever i like for them so yeah it's yeah it's not it's not really fun i enjoy it when they go crazy on reddit because then i can see their post history and it's always fun to look if you just see someone who's really angry just look back through their post history oftentimes Oftentimes, they're just always angry. Like, that's just what they do.

Nothing in their life is fun. Nothing is happiness. Like, you don't see, like, you never see someone who is, like, hate posting on Gnome, who then their previous post is, hey, look, guys, I just benched 120 kilos. It's a new record. Like, look at my great, look at my great life like that's not

what happens it's always like oh i hate this i hate that like every single time yeah but it sucks for them as well because they're not never happy so yeah no that's fair that, that's fair. That's totally fair. But, you know, you can't worry about everyone. It takes too much effort. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's, like, mentally taxing as well by doing that. For sure.

I saw this post that Cassidy made about FlightHub now having over a million active users which is wild i didn't realize it was that big like yeah uh just just so you don't have to go find it yourself uh 1.6 billion downloads 2400 apps 850 verified apps a million plus active users like you know just just having that number there is a you can use that just you can go to a a company that has an app like hey we have a million users here like that that by itself is already a a fairly good selling point of the platform yeah and now like flat hub is like they did like they started putting a lot of effort into the documentation and stuff like that because before it used to be inside a github wiki and that was just like the seo like you know google's like search engine optimization is just like non-existent and all that but now that they have their own

docs page it can it's it's really nice yeah i have heard from a couple of developers where it's like yeah the user experience for flat hub is incredible but the developer side you know it needed some work like you could obviously get things on there's 2400 apps but it was it wasn't pleasant for them and if it's not like their priority to get it on Flathub then they might

just do it somewhere else yeah it's also that like they also added like really neat features for developers as well. So they can check how their app metadata and stuff like that. Wait, give me a second. Let me try and find it.

Here's a screenshot and it's like yeah it's uh like at the side the side panel um it's it's that like it's it's really cool now and you can also ask like request for a manual review as well so like i'm really happy that they're actually like they are putting a lot of work into uh uh flat hub it's yeah it's it's really good there was a lot of confusion regarding those uh those guidelines now we definitely are going to talk about what i said in the video but, there was a lot of confusion with like when Like people have seen this picture and they're like, oh, so if it's failing checks there's gonna be a banner on it that says it's failing like No

That's for the developers to see. Like oh, there's gonna be, there's gonna be like this thing that's like, oh, it's oh It fails things. It's not gonna be allowed in the store. No, nobody said that. Oh, but like, what if they do it in the future? Then we worry about in the future. I don't understand like why people are just so quick to jump on any single improvement. Like, like it's one thing to have actual concerns with it but can you focus your concerns on the things that it actually says please like what are we doing yeah exactly like um i think the worst like thing to worry about is those who are like oh flat hub is adding drm and or uh like flat hub

is going to become yet another like app store like apple app store or uh a google play store but like what they don't realize is that flat hub is it's not a company product it's it's a multi-organization effort including non-profit organizations uh so like it's a whole different environment that we're talking about and it's like like can you please do your research and like shut the fuck up it's just yeah it's the same way that like that people say about gnome or yeah gnome you know people are just like oh it's red hat it's just red hat and i like i can tell you this that as a like foundation member, like as someone who actively like, um, contributes to GNOME, um, like Red Hat has very little power,

like in many areas, like it's, they have very little influence. Um, well, okay. Well, they have a lot of influence,

but at the same time, not in a way where they can build a monopoly out of it because like just like flat hub gnome is also a multi-organization effort to a lot of extent like it's not just red hat that is involved in many ways there's also free desktop and there's um purism there's Purism, there's Endless Foundation, there's, I think, Collabra as well. There's another company, Egalia as well. So, like, the thing is, like,

Red Hat literally cannot do anything. Like, they have to work together. And when we look at a designer, like, just a designer team, I know that one of them is from red hat and another one is from purism um so like there's also like in many cases where teams have like cross organization like you know there are multiple organizations that employ uh to be in that team as well. That's just how in many ways GNOME is. Obviously, there are also people who don't

work on the behalf of an employer. They just do it for free. Like Georges Stavrakas, for example. He's single-handedly maintaining GNOME Calendar for free. Like, he's not employed by anyone.

It's, uh, yeah, like, unfortunately, people just don't like to do research, and, yeah, it just sucks. Yeah. And when you look at it from, like, a very surface level, I think the reason people say GNOME Red Hat Hat is obviously Red Hat does use Gnome, and then a lot of the, like, big faces of, like, the project, and you know the names to talk about, like, there's no need to send people over there, like, you know, like,

the people who are, like, those big names that everybody recognizes, a lot of those people are Red Hat employees. So people are like, oh, of those people are red hat employees so people are like oh if those people are red hat employees they and they're like they're big names in the project well that must mean that they have like control over what's going on and they sort of fail to see like the rest of what's going on in the background like they are just a small cog in this giant machine yeah it's not just that like just because someone works at red hat it doesn't mean they are being paid to do that work so that yes um yeah like i realized that at least with red hat employees and actually even with purism

um no actually all the companies working on gnOME is that the developers are very, very passionate. You'll see that one, for example, RedHat employee who is tasked to do something. But then they're also volunteering on on 20 other gnome related stuff and they're not being paid or anything it's just like they're genuinely passionate about yeah it just happens like they just happen to have a job like tasked to work at gnome uh for gnome which i mean i think it's wonderful like if someone could pay me to like work on gnome i would i would take it like i mean if i do have the skills like i would go for it because i love gnome like i want to work on gnome and all that and like if we look at um

like i know at least uh tobias bernard he works at purism as far as i know and um he he designs a lot of icons and i'm pretty sure that like 95 of them he's not being paid and yeah it's it's just like an example but they, there's also one of them. And my god, that whole thing was an absolute disaster. Let me see if I can find it. So there is this one issue in GNOME settings where they were thinking about removing almost entirely the network section of GNOME.

Okay. Because it wasn't being maintained. Let me... Where is it? Hold on. Network. hold on network um I cannot find the issue you gotta be kidding me

um I don't even I don't even remember the title of it I think it's reconsider no it's Reconsider. No, it's not Reconsider. I'm not cutting any of this out, by the way. This is going to stay in.

No, that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, no, I'm just going to, you know, I'm just going to try to find it at the same time. But yeah, like that's The gist of it is they were gonna remove, like, a massive section of the Wi-Fi-related stuff. Okay.

Because it wasn't being maintained anymore. And... And obviously it was really controversial because a lot of employers, including Red Hat and all of them, actually rely on those stuff. So, yeah, it was really controversial. At the same time, everyone was like,

oh, but we need that feature. But at the same time, no one was willing to work on it. Until that one Red Hat employee, who actually volunteered to maintain that section of settings um and they're not being paid at all but they do work at red hat so like that's just like another example like of someone being very passionate about their like how like about gnome Which I think it's wonderful, you know?

But yeah, if I can find it, I'll just send a link. But you'll see it's just going to be an absolute disaster. Oh, good. And... No luck? Sorry? No luck. man no luck uh sorry no luck he's not gonna find no luck no luck okay um with the whole uh uh gnome is a red hat thing i saw i i like to just uh look through people's replies to stuff to see what they're interested in I saw you talking back and forth

with someone the other day where they were calling Gnome FSF I actually I love this comment right because that is true about 20 years ago.

Because when GNOME started, it was a GNU project. Like, the whole GNU object model environment wasn't just a name. Like, it started as part of the GNU project. In 2019, it stopped being part of the GNU project, though. That's four years ago. I think the problem is, there actually was a whole drama there, where after they departed from the GNU project,

GNU was still listing it as a GNU project up until that 2021. There were multiple email exchanges back and forth, like, hey, stop listing us as a GNU project, we haven't been for two years now, and eventually they stopped doing so. But there's clearly still people out there that think that it is, and just haven't, like, caught up yet. Yeah, I can really comment on that. Like, I'm gonna be honest, I didn't really know. Mm-hmm. Uh, that it was, like, four years ago, I find that it's kind of recent.

Mm-hmm. Um, I thought it was, like, out of GNU since, uh, since forever. Well, at least four years ago is when they publicly departed. I don't know if there was anything before that. But they made a big deal about it four years ago, that's for sure. Mm-hmm. Ikea. Oh yeah, Ikea.

Yeah, so they've been asking since 2019 to be removed. But they might have been gone before that point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Regardless, they're not part of GNU anymore. It's not a thing. Stop trying, like, it's rare that people say, usually the Red Hat stuff gets, like, more attention, right?

But, like, you'll still run into these odd people that still don't know that it's not part of GNU. Yeah. That's very part of GNU. Yeah. That's very right, but yeah. If it was part of- Here's the funny part, right? Like, if GNOME was part of GNU, GNOME would

be GNU. Like, it would completely outfund and out, like, outdevelop the entirety of the project. Wait, sorry, can you repeat? If GNOME was part of

GNU, like, it would be less that GNOME's part of GNU, more like GNU's part of GNOME, because the project is just so much bigger than GNU is at this point. Uh, maybe, I'm not sure like because i mean i'm not i'm so lost with fsf and gnu like it's like yeah when it comes to the free software foundation like it's just like almost everything makes me ask why. Like, why is it like that? Like, who thought that this was a good idea and things like that?

And it's like, why is it so unclear? But, like, either, like, maybe, I don't know, like, no, I think GCC, like, you know, the compiler. That is a massive project. That's a fair point. Fair point. Yeah. Grub, that's another massive project as well. So I wouldn't say that GNOME massive project. That's a fair point. Yeah, Grub, that's another massive project as well. So I wouldn't say that GNOME is bigger. We have two projects. It depends.

That's fair. But those two projects are like several millions of lines of code, so like they're pretty big. No, I mean like bigger in terms of like, like the funding and the number of developers in the project things like that right yeah again gc is 15 million lines of code yeah okay that's that's yeah it's it's not it's a serious pro like it is a massive project oh okay i found i found the issue oh you found finally yes that was the issue. Oh, you found it! Yes, that was the issue. I thought you'd given up. Uh, okay.

No, no, no, I don't give up. Uh, okay, so reduce the scope of the network settings. We have maintenance issues with the network settings. They have the most issues out of all the settings panels, and we don't have domain experts available to diagnose and fix issues as they come in. Looking at the issue tracker, it's hard to be confident that the existing network settings actually work. Reducing the scope of the network settings is an obvious solution to this.

We could have a more limited set of options, which get better testing and don't cover specialist features. For anyone who wants more than that, we can point them to NM Connection Editor. We would therefore need to fix another issue. Okay. Yeah, like, if you scroll down you'll see like there are a lot of people who are like not really happy with it which is fair but like if you scroll down you'll see at some point like i did make a comment like here's the thing i wasn't happy that they were they were like considering that um but in the end like for me at least for me uh what's more important than teachers is

maintainers mental health and at that time like you know when you uh interviewed um georges georges did say like there were times when he wasn't like like he wasn't being nice to people and all that that was one of the times the energy used to write the message could have been used to fix three quarters of the bugs yeah like he does have a point but the thing is like at the time i'm not sure if that is still the case, but at least at that time, he was a maintainer of GNOME settings. And he was really... No, actually, okay, he's not a maintainer anymore. But before he had the maintainer tag.

But yeah, he used to be a maintainer. And at that time, he was beyond burnt out. And if you scroll down, you'll see my comment as well like i'm literally defending george's because like it was like i said like okay well sure you know it sucks for us but it sucks like if we keep those stuff it sucks for like it it's worse for george's like mental health and all that so that's why like i was quote unquote in support of it but it's yeah i'm just consistently like that like if you know even if it's a project i absolutely love but the maintainer isn't exactly in the healthiest state i'm gonna like you know let them know that like hey like it's okay to abandon your project like don't take it the wrong way but you know

your mental health doesn't matter right and yeah like that's also like around the time when i started talking with georges um like i was a fan of georges for like a really long time like you know for a few years and he didn't really know who i was uh so like yeah like at that time um it was pretty clear that he was burnt out and so i just messaged him i asked like hey can i privately message you and like yeah i just i i encouraged him to take a break uh which he did i think it was a week break or something he did feel better and like yeah it's that's like and then we started talking to each other we became we're pretty good friends now that's cool um but yeah it's it's not sadly it's not just george's it's like many developers and maintainers like that

they're overworked and like even though like it's it sucks that the people um who rely on those features are affected but it almost always sucks more for the people maintaining it yeah if they don't really want to or like you know if they're not in the correct mindset or like they don't have the resources to maintain it and yeah it's uh it's uh it's not really fun like it like it's it's really difficult to defend a maintainer's like position like if that makes sense like when they're burnt out and they're being rude to some extent right so it's like it's also important that, you know, we look a little bit further than just their, how they're behaving. It's more like, you know,

everything else as well. Like what they're actually going through. No, yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. As far as I know,

um, after stepping down from gnome settings, I think that George's has been feeling a lot better now so it's really nice to see that there's multiple stages of burnout

there's the step where you're like I just don't want to work on this anymore and then I've talked about this is especially true in some web libraries where people have been working on something for like 3, 4, three four or five years And they're like, you know what? I'm done

They post like a giant manifesto of like how Corporations are evil Like all of these corporations are using it like this project. They haven't given my project a single cent. I'm done I'm abandoning this I'm deleting the entire project like you want to be able to take a break before you get to that point like there there are some projects where like the dev isn't just burnt out and will come back after a week they're just burnt out from like open source development and just never want to do it again yeah exactly and it's yeah it just sucks like the the people who are working on it are like doing in a good faith like it's free labor and then developer well sorry not

developer um companies and i guess not just like companies they abuse it like to some extent like well it's technically not abusing because mit and bsd licensor are like oh do whatever you want essentially but but it's like you know they they don't fund the like the development because for them it's just like whatever like like i can make a million dollar profit so why like who cares about them yeah um yeah and but it's not just the companies a lot to a large extent it's just the overall user base just in another way where instead of money or like you know uh financial um contributions it's more like an issue trackers or whatever like directly contacting the developers and saying that like you know trying to be just being entitled it's it's yeah it's it just sucks that's all i can say yeah it's uh i i know i helped a lot like that sorry yeah it's yeah no

yeah what i meant to say it's like upstream developers are generally like overworked that's just how i see it and that's one of the reasons why like i became become very like defensive when it comes to like downstream uh packaging and stuff like that because like us upstream maintainers already have like so many things to worry about and by the fact that you're like you know you guys are packaging this app like my app the wrong way now it's like you know you're adding more like more fuel uh the fire and it's just like it that's like what happened with bottles as well like at least for me like i got burnt out like georgian level burnt out from i mean you probably noticed it and yeah no i i've read the

issue tracker yeah it's i was really tired of being too nice like i remember like just it wasn't just an issue tracker trackers it was on discord as well people it was just like consistently like oh i have this problem i have this this problem. And then you ask... It was to the point where we weren't asking what package they were using. We were asking if they were using the RPM because that's just how bad it got. It was just broken.

And I just got really tired of like dealing with all that and yeah it i mean i lashed out but i mean if i reread like i did reread it like after i left bottles and i still stand by everything i said um but yeah it's like one thing i can tell you is that um the original comments were 10 times worse um yeah no no probably 10 times is an understatement that's that's how much i would say um someone was actually helping me like make it sound more neutral right um because like i knew that i was really like like you know i was burnt out and like that's just something that i realized but i didn't really had the guts i didn't really have the guts to like leave the project and uh yeah so like you

know i just asked that person like oh can you help me like write this in a way that isn't like rude um but yeah it's that whole thing was a mess and now to be fair i'm not saying that like fedora as a whole is bad like fedora is still a wonderful community uh like you we look at the website team or the design team like they're they're wonderful people it's just like that was the like that one time when i just had a terrible experience with fedora as i guess we could say as an organization but yeah it's um but still like i still learned a lot from fedora i still participated as much as i as i could and a lot of contributors were very welcoming and i mean there are also a lot of people that i really really like and yeah it's but still like it's it's not it's just like sometimes i do think like uh even if a maintainer

is kind of an asshole like i try to like be respectful right like you know be like okay well sure you have you may have a bad take and like you know you have a bad take i'm just going to respect it and not you know i don't want to cause any problems to you um yeah like like you know people are like oh yeah like you just want everything to be a flat pack which is like i mean yeah sure like that is to some extent true but like if a maintainer doesn't want to make it turn into a flat pack then i'm just going to respect that like i'm going to be like hey if you want to snap go for it like you're allowed to use inferior platforms but like go for it well i'm not i don't want to like be an ass to you speaking of snaps we saw a very similar case happen with the um the steam snap where some valve devs were like can you stop using this thing it's just broken like

we we can't fix it like it's like it's broken go blame canonical for it being broke like tell them about like we we are not maintaining this like it's not our problem yeah yeah right it's i think it's more of the unfortunate state like because the steam flat pack used to be really really bad like unusably bad um and it was just a matter of time that it got better and actually usable with like even to the point that i actually use it on a daily basis like i like i use the steam flat pack daily now um but like at least with snap like you know they recently started the steam snap so i do understand why it's like completely broken and i think that they will fix it like it will improve as time goes on but at the same time it's like you know i would just like i would tell the employees like the valve employees to like

like tell canonical like go directly tell a canonical to stop doing it tell them to drop the packaging entirely. But yeah, like... But yeah, it must really suck for the developers. Well, it was... They'll have to deal with Snap. The funny part is apparently some internal Valve developers were using the Snap and didn't realize it

because it also did like package redirection, which is a thing Canonical likes to do. You think think you install the app but it actually installs the snap um which makes sense for firefox because the firefox snap is in a fairly good state but the steam snap is not in that state like that's yeah that shouldn't be getting done um but where i was getting at here is after i'm done with this, I've got another video I'm going to do, uh, talking about like where you should be reporting bugs, like talking about upstream and downstream bug trackers, people say well users will go to like the distro bug tracker and that's not what's gonna happen like your experience with bottles is a great example with this people on fedora were going to we're going to to the bottles developers with problems with bottles they weren't going to the fedora bug tracker i'm sure some of them were

without a doubt but a lot of other people were like, oh, I'm running bottles. I'm going to be a good contributor. I'm going to go directly to the project and tell them about the problem so they can fix the problem. But it wasn't issues that you could deal with because it was entirely issues with the packaging.

And that's true for that one. It's going to be very true. Um, so apparently there's some work to get a Hyperland package on Debian, and we both know that Debian, by the end of its life cycle, is about two years out of date. So I have no doubt that there will be two-year-old bug reports being made on the project, uh, if that ends up actually happening. People don't go just to the distro bug tracker that's not a thing that happens yeah no that's not true at all like the worst part is that a lot of those distros they display it so badly um like if you look at fedora at least on Fedora's side, they use Bugzilla. No one in their right mind wants to use Bugzilla.

You must be fucking crazy if you're going to use Bugzilla. Let me tell you that. There are people who dislike or who just don't want to deal with Bugzilla or the issue trackers, downstream issue tracking side. bugzilla or like the issue trackers like downstream issue tracking side so they they will willing fully like willingly i mean um report to upstream because it's just easier like gnome uses gitlab gitlab is just easier to use so why not open it in gitlab and uh yeah in gnome gitlab like you know to upstream and they'll probably like deal with it later but you know that's like the problem like it's not just the fact that users are reporting upstream

it's also that reporting downstream is in many cases really difficult yeah um and this is like one of the reasons why like i'm a i just love nixos is like nixos they did they did a wonderful job at like targeting their like because their target audience is you like really really technical users sure um that's a nice and those technical and those technical users are like they understand the distribution model so they know that okay if there is an issue with a nix package they're going to report it to downstream and that is very much like that is one of the few cases where downstream distros saying that like users will report it downstream first is like true. But when we look at Fedora, like at least with Fedora or like Ubuntu, yeah, Fedora and Ubuntu, for example's it's quite like their target audience is the average person basically or the average developer like you know people who don't really understand

um the distribution model and because of that like for them, they're going to assume that it's just like iOS or Mac OS or Windows, where everything is directly from developers when it is not true at all. And yeah, it's just like, it distribution model doesn't really work anymore. For NixOS, it does because the target audience is the people who do know the distribution model. Same thing with Gentoo. Same thing with Arch, to some extent. Arch is a weird one. Yeah, like, Arch is targeted for smart people. But then you have Endeavor.

That's the problem. And Arco. And Garuda. Well, it's not really... Yeah, yeah. That is definitely a problem. Oh, yeah. Don't get me started on Manjaro. Yeah.

But it's not just that well i mean well i know with arch it's a little bit of a special case because like i'm gonna be honest like a large chunk of the arch community is filled with idiots who don't understand how anything works really yeah um that's why like you know for me that's like one of the things of like with at least with bottles that you know i was really hesitant because i understand arches like i don't want to inconvenience inconvenience the arch developers because like you know they are targeting advanced users and which are expected to understand the distribution model so like you know they are targeting advanced users and which are expected to understand the distribution model so like you know i don't want to interfere with that but at the same time it's like half the user base is filled with morons it's like

bruh it's just a bruh like i i don't know i just yeah it's just a bra. Like, I don't know. I just, yeah, it's just difficult to decide. But yeah, like, at least with Fedora and Ubuntu side, I feel like the distribution model, like, it's like, at least with Ubuntu, like, I don't like snaps. But, you know, at least with snaps, it's upstream first. Like, in many cases,'s expected that uh the upstream developers

actually package it for snap but on fedora it's not really that like you have rpm like you have fedora repos which is 100 downstream um but then you also have fedora Flatpaks, which is, well, what is, I mean, the way I see it is a glorified distribution package, sorry, distribution repo. It's just a repackaged RPM. That's all it is. Yeah. They're just built off the Fedora RPMs. Yeah, exactly. And it's just, so like, you still share the same problem like almost same problem where

downstream like there is still a middle person um and yeah like you know you could still have a run into problems and stuff like that it's just that's like it's just a problem that i have with fedora and i really wish that they would just completely push Flathub. They're slowly getting there, like they're better than they were with it. Where they like, I remember this was like really stupid when I found out, where they said you activated uh flat packs and then like hid to the fact that it was that it was using theirs instead of flat hub and like it showed it in a really weird way where it like sort of made you think it was flat hub but it really wasn't i don't know exactly how they displayed it but it was really dumb oh it was i mean it wasn't just dumb that that is an understatement it was a lot worse than that um it was some like white white list um

a thing let me try to find it uh oops hmm i think yeah it's that okay i sent a link yes yes so yes. So it... Yeah. Yeah. They really denied everything by default, except... seven packages or something. Mm-hmm. It's... Well, seven apps. And, like, yeah, it was...

I'm telling you, like, there are some people, like, in the Fedora community that are just, like... It's just like talking to a brick wall. Mm-hmm. I remember, like, some of them were saying oh well you know using flat hub is a legal problem and all that yet they literally have fucking minecraft enabled or teams discord and all that like zoom like what the fuck are you talking about like you guys are literally allowing those apps and then saying that it's a legal risk like be consistent but yeah it's uh and like that was at the time when discord wasn't even official so yeah it's yeah right

yeah it was just worse but i'm glad they got rid of that now it's a lot better but it still kind of sucks in my opinion because uh fedora flat packs is prioritized and you are getting a subpar experience which is well yeah they're just repeating the same distro problem. Middle person thing. But yeah. Downstreams being downstreams. It's funny though. Because. Yeah it's not just.

Like a lot of people are just like. Oh yeah but it's just GNOME that has this problem. Where you know it's just. With KDE it's all fine. Let me. I mean you you did interview... Well, no, no, it's actually not just GNOME. In many cases, it's also KDE. Yeah, no, I'm well aware.

Yeah. No, that's what I'm laughing at. Right, but it's not just KDE either. It's also in RustyCL. Like, you know rusticle um like carol like he keeps telling like he often goes in rants and says like you know debbie and a bunch of developers are so painful to work with because they do it they just do it wrong and oh this reminds this reminds me of something like someone from gnome dead something like it was absolute fire oh hold on

oh what's his name again oh you can't remember okay there you go i know oh man so that was about fractal packaging um sorry i'm just trying to i don't think i recognize the name uh he's one of the fractalal developers, like Fractal, the Matrix client for GNOME. Oh, okay. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, like, it's written in Rust.

And Debian, as far as I know, they want to do their own thing with Rust. And so is Fedora and, I guess, Ubuntu as well. It's not, like... Because, you know, Rust has its own way of packaging or whatever it is. Which Fedora and well it's not just fedora in this case debian is altering like you know they're doing completely differently um and you know alexander like right like here he was just like i'm just glad that debian people are like suffering from it because like he doesn't want to deal with it and that's completely fair the actual

quote for anyone listening is i'm so glad debian is facing such difficulties packaging it you have no idea now since our intention was clearly stated at the beginning you failed to understand it and kept debating this as far as i'm concerned this was the last message i will see from you good day sir that's such a good comment yeah it's absolute fire but yeah it's um like yeah um it's it's not just gnome like let me tell you that it's not just Gnome, let me tell you that. Rusticle is one of them. I think there's this old XScreenSaver thing as well. Is it the Debian deleting the thing saying, hey, yes, I did a video on this,

where JWZ was like, was like hey debian please stop shipping an outdated version and they're like yeah we're gonna delete the message yeah it's uh i mean yeah yeah yeah so it's not just gnome that is suffering from it it's like many many upstream developers the only difference is that we can know like we're just very very vocal um and that's that's one of the things i like about gnome is that like we're very vocal um it's same thing with like you look at a theming stuff uh there's just tobias we're not like going ham and being like yo stop theming our apps this yours you our apps, you guys are just doing it wrong. Which, funnily enough,

this is another case where people are just like, oh, that's just GNOME, that's just GNOME. No, it's with KT as well. Let me tell you this. It's with Qt as well. Or Qt. Like, oh, man. I know if you've ever heard of QGnome Platform.

Yes. Yes, I'm aware of QGnome Platform. Yeah, it's... That wasn't... I literally fought for my life to stop, to ask the developers to stop um needlessly modifying uh cute apps or like the theming part of cute and it was such a disaster but i'm glad like we didn't end up like convince them uh and i think that the situation is going to get a lot better from now on.

So for anyone who doesn't know, QGnome Platform, the way that I understand it is, it's basically a bridge between the GNOME settings and Qt apps, where it converts a lot of those GNOME settings into something that makes sense for Qt apps and basically attempts to make the theming look consistent. Attempts. that makes sense for Qt apps and basically attempts to make the theming look consistent yeah attempts uh that's for yeah the theming is done by Adwaita Qt uh um Qgnome platform is just the other stuff like the window decoration stuff yeah exactly the settings the settings yeah okay cursor yeah exactly the settings i guess like we queue good on platform it wasn't that big of a deal uh my bad it was mainly with eduada qt and have you ever seen the examples i provided before and all that um i don't know you haven't okay let me send let me know yeah hold on uh i i actually wrote a blog like that that's literally why it got pretty improved that's a great title oh yeah i did explain a lot oh what the hell that looks

what the hell that looks off yeah that's it that's a problem with theming like it's not just gtk theming it's theming in general the moment that you change the behavior you're gonna run into issues at some point um with qta it might be a little bit less than GTK, but in either case, like, you are gonna run into issues. Qt, like, even though it has, quote-unquote, official theming, support or whatever you want to say it, it still has

its own sets of problems where, you know, maybe it's not the technology itself, it's just the people working on it. And, yeah, like, it's not the technology itself it's just the people working on it and and yeah like it's just but yeah like at least for that I was

fighting for my life actually let me find the issue this one oh my god like it just went on and on oh my god it wasn't a fun time reconsider use of adwaita qt okay we've received complaints from many users about the adwaita qt theme breaking apps uh okay oh and links to your article yeah okay yep nowadays gnome has been heavily discouraged in custom themes.

Yep, stop theming my app. Upstream developers do not test their applications with AdWord AQT. It's good for AdWord AQT to remain available, but I'm no longer confident there's appropriate def- Wait, it was the default? Oh. That's on Fedora. Yeah. Yeah, that was on Fedora, not on GNOME.

Right, right, right, no. GNOME doesn't touch Qt at all. Sure. It's Fedora, not on GNOME. Right, right, right. GNOME doesn't touch Qt at all. Sure. It's Fedora that used to do it. Right. And it would break a lot of Qt apps. And unfortunately, because people are like... How do I say this?

This is not really AdWord and Qt fault. And I also don't expect many people use KDE Core apps on GNOME. No, no, hold on. like what i meant is like sorry uh kdenlive fedora fedora in many ways is like known or like understood to be stock gnome right like yeah with a few differences like well in some epiphany it's firefox and some differences like that but you know the way that people view it is stock gnome essentially right and and having something sort of like adware acute people would assume that it is a gnome issue and right you know there are multiple examples where people thought that it was GNOME fucking up the apps. But that wasn't the case. It was actually Fedora.

So, like, I mean, if you look at, if you read the comments, like, you'll see that I've explained that. I think multiple times. And it's just, like, like, it was just, I was just facepalming, like, like, literally facepalming a few times. At some point, I got tired of it, and I stopped responding because I didn't think it was going anywhere. But if you scroll almost all the way down, you'll see there's... Actually, let me send a link. Or the direct link.

Starting from this comment, you'll see the guy, Michael Catanzaro. Yes. Sorry for... No, I think I'm probably close. Yeah, he posted a million examples below, at least in that comment I sent. And it was yet another reason why it's not a good idea to ship AdWord Acute. And even Alan Day as well did the same.

And yeah, it's pretty obvious at this point that we shouldn't be theming those cute apps. Yep. Because it was all a mess. But yeah, it's, uh... I mean, yeah, you can see, like, I was fighting for my life. I was just, like, just fighting really hard. I don't even know how that happens.

It would be hard. I don't even know how that happens. I see the picture of Black Chocobo, and there's, like, a checkbox that has, like, two check elements. I don't even know how you break the theme that badly. It's... It's... How did I see it? Well, first of all, it's...

Like, themes are really, really fragile. Right. So not only like, let's say even for a checkbox, like if you change the style, at least, I mean, let's say with CSS, like, let's say like it's color blue in version one and then like you know there's a custom theme like a third-party theme that changes from blue to red and maybe changes a little bit the size of that checkbox and then the next version it makes it a little bit bigger well if it's a relative size like you know it's gonna interfere it's good like there's gonna have a lot of problems that um yeah right and that's like yeah that's very much like what i meant by it's not just a gtk problem

it's just a theming thing it's just like a downside of theming in general. And yeah, it's... And I feel like... I don't think that it was broken initially. It's just like as we started updating apps, as Q... At least the KD stuff became more and more robust. And there's also Kirigami now.

In case... Now, I'm sure that nobody knows what Kirigami is. It's essentially Libetdueta for KDE. You get mobile-related widgets. Sorry? Yeah, no, I didn't know about that. Okay. Yeah, nobody knows.

Hold on, let me... Let me send a link if I can freaking find one. Kirigami UI framework? Build beautiful apps that run on computers, phones, TVs, everything else? Hold on.

This... I mean, there's an app specifically for that. It's called Kirigami Gallery. And this, it's just like... It's just like an app where you can test you can um uh you can experiment with the the library or like you know with the widgets um it's a my bad it's a demo app essentially right right uh for kirigami but that's a kd thing and that's like you know we run into this a similar problem with libidueta where a lot of a lot of cute themes are made for

cute but they're not made for kirigami and then you know now that there's going to have a lot of custom widgets for kirigami itself like a lot of themes will be behind and all that. So that's why, just in general, distros shouldn't be theming. Or they should just ship the original, whatever is provided by the desktop. So that it breaks as less as possible. whether it's plasma or it's gnome or another like desktop environment it's just better to keep it at default yeah but then how do you justify a hundred other distros existing which they're already changed it's having a different theme well i guess it's a good point.

I've said before that a lot of the distros that exist are basically just glorified in still scripts. Yeah, that's true. It's just a config file packages in ISO basically. Yeah, it's a bummer. It doesn't... we shouldn't't like it shouldn't be that way it's one of the reasons why i'm very like interested in vanilla os it's uh like i mean i'm saying this as a moderator of the server but like it is but like i'm actually interested in it

because like it does things differently. And, you know, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but just today, at least January 30, the beta release came out. I promise you,

I didn't have this planned. No, you can chill. It's fine. Go ahead. But yeah, like we had beta release, which I made almost no contribution. Let me be clear about it. But there's a lot of interesting stuff. One of them is being able to install Android APKs. And we also removed sudo.

And we're going to use, we recommend users to use pkexec directly. We're making a lot of changes. And by we, I mean them. Because again, I didn't really help much. And that's one of the reasons why like I'm fine with Vanilla OS because it's not yet another glorified install script. It is, it actually does different stuff. Vanilla OS is one of like, I don't like talking about distros on my channel.

I know like a lot of people that like these, you know, 20 minute distro videos. Like, oh, this distro is running GNOME. It has this theme, it has these wallpapers. But Vanilla OS actually is a different distro. Like, Fedora is a different distro, Arch is a different distro, Gentoo is a different distro, and even though Vanilla OS is based on a distro that already exists, it takes that and goes so far away from it that it is its own thing. Yeah. That's exactly why, like, I'm very much interested in vanilla OS

or, like, Fedora. Even Arch to some extent. But, yeah, it's... NixOS is... Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, you can't... Yeah, of course, NixOS is a different thing as well. Yeah. Yeah. Can't forget them. They'll get very angry about it. Yeah, never. Yeah, never forget NixOS. I'll do my NixOS video sometime. I've been saying that for about soon tm yeah exactly trademark yep yep yeah there's uh yeah um uh where was i going yeah that's the like i don't know why no one over like katie doesn't really talk about kirigami

i don't think it's a like wonderful project like i i didn't. I don't really keep track of it, but I do think that's a good thing to have. But I really wish that they would actually make it more public or make it more obvious and actually, I guess, marketed, if that makes sense, the same way

that GNOME is doing with LibreDivita. Which also... marketed if that makes sense the same way that gnome is doing with libidoweda um which also at least i mean it's not that bad with kd because like you know no one knows about kirigami but with libidoweda like people always think that gtk is a mobile toolkit like you know every button is huge and all that but it's the same kinds of people who just hate uh you know like who have no idea how like any of this works or like how it is um because um like you'd be surprised how differentlyidueta is to gtk nowadays like how separate it is like it's to the point where a gtk app looks more in um what's what's the word uh it looks more out of... Oh, fuck.

I can't think of the correct word. It's... You know, I can't think of the correct word. But what I want to at least try to say is that GTK apps look more like... they fit better in non-Gnome desktops than Gnome itself, in my opinion. That's how far we went with Libadwaiter. I'm trying to find a demo app that doesn't use Libadwaiter, but I'm not seeing one. Find a demo app that doesn't use LeBad Waiter, but I'm not seeing one.

That doesn't... GTK Demo. I think that's... I think that's from the Flatpak Nightly... Sorry. Gnome Nightly remote. I was just searching for the wrong things. Sweet. Okay.

Let me send a link. Yes, if you can do that, it'd be awesome. Yeah. You'll see how to install or add the remote. Oh, I thought it was just going to be a screenshot there. I'm not going to do it right now. Oh, my bad. If you have a screenshot, yeah, that would be awesome. To be fair, the buttons of GTK demo are still huge, but that's optional.

There is... That's a normal... It looks exactly like a GTK3 app. If we... Yeah, okay, I see what you mean. Hold on, there is Oh, what is this name? The BitTorrent client

Transmission That app It's a GTK4 app, but it looks exactly like You know, a normal desktop app At least a traditional desktop app I have it installed Give me a second, me just send a screenshot uh yeah okay the screenshot on their website is from the mac os version

oh no okay yeah that's a gdk4 app it looks like a desktop app and you know it has a menu bar as well. That's basically GTK4. The point of libredwaiter was to make it comply with GNOME's human interface guidelines, whereas GTK was meant to be a generic purpose toolkit like for windows and mac os and you know not just linux as well but everything else and and like one of the problems at least back then was that a lot of the widgets were focused on gnome right but there were inside a general purpose toolkit which like it wasn't nice like like it wasn't the ideal solution which is why the bedway to exist and that's also why kirigami exists because like a lot of the widgets like cute widgets

will only be used on Plasma. So like, yeah, that's why Kirigami and LibidWide exist. I'm still glad that GTK is closer to a general purpose toolkit now.

So like, yeah, it's... But it also makes it look less fitting in gnome than any other desktop it's just quite ironic ironic in my opinion but yeah now it's interesting here because a lot of people would like just describe gtk nowadays as you you know, the GNOME toolkit, basically. But, hearing that that the, and seeing the screenshots here that it's, is this, like, it's still very clearly, like, a distinct obviously it's made by GNOME developers, very much so. It's not like

it's just a completely separate thing, but it's still very much like a generic toolkit. Yeah, exactly. Which is good, like, um, now there's, it's only transmission i know like that is using that traditional ui in the gtk app gtk for app i think that gimp and inkscape will do the same thing like it's gonna be the same ui yeah yeah uh the same ui but in going to be the same UI. Yeah. The same UI, but in GTK4,

essentially. Yeah, there is obviously a... I've played around with the GTK3 version of the game, which is hilarious that they're still just doing GTK3. And obviously things are different, because the styling of a GTK3

button for example is different from GTK2 but it still feels like the same application and I would not be surprised if the same is true when they eventually do GTK4 or jump to GTK5 or whatever they end up doing like whenever they decide to change toolkit

again yeah there's also uh yeah it's uh hold on um it's also if it's not just like um shit i forgot what i was gonna say uh well rip let's see yeah no I mean like at least for the fat like the big

buttons that I can like you can kind of still do it on GTK4 and you can see from the GTK4 demo app that it is still big buttons, but it's also worth knowing that the legacy or legacy, well, traditional, I mean, UI is still very much possible on GTK4. It's like, yeah, I think that's good.

Yeah, sure. And one thing that transmission, like, one thing that I learned in transmission, at least when I tried transmission, is that the GTK file picker is actually different on GNOME than on... The stock GTK4 dialog

is different to the GTK dialog on GNOME. It's... Because the GTK dialogue on Gnome is it's just like some difference like it's just some like style differences to make it look like Libidweta

but it's not exactly Libidweta itself like there still needs to be a lot of work put into the file picker at least. I mean, hold on. Let me send you a screenshot.

That's how it looks like on GNOME. I guess we could say the GNOME file picker. And. Sure. Yeah. Okay. And then the.

GTK file picker. Looks. Looks like this. So you can see like. Yeah, like even yeah, like even the GTK file picker has that small title bar. And, you know, it is still like a desktop or like a traditional UI, which I, to be fair, to be honest, I did find it pretty cool. Even though it's just like tiny detail that nobody cares and all. But still. Well, one of the nice things about nowadays with the file picker stuff is we do have the file portal.

What's the portal for dealing with the file picker? The file chooser portal. That one. Yes. Thank you. Because for a long time, that was just not a thing. So if you used KDE you just got the GTK file picker and something like Firefox, which was great. Yeah, I'm glad that we have portal. It's one of the best things yeah i'm glad that we have portal it's one of the best things we that ever happened to linux and yeah obviously it's george's caring like always yeah yeah i really wonder like

what would have happened if he didn't exist like so many things wouldn't be there like let's not forget about uh thumbnails in the file picker that was from george's as well so like he he's just a saint i'm sorry like i need to fanboy this guy he's just wonderful well it sort of goes back to you know i'm sure you've heard people say oh if you don't like this thing just go fork the repo or like with xorg i've been seeing people say oh when red hat pulls out i'm just gonna go develop xorg myself like are you now are you go ahead please do like no you're not gonna do that because if you were you'd already be doing it and the same thing with like the work that george's are doing i don't know if someone would have filled his place

that's the thing no for sure no i'm sure people would eventually do it at some point maybe but it wouldn't have happened when it happened yeah i mean gnome calendar would be gone and my life would be over that's for sure um if he wasn't here and yeah it's i mean he did he keeps saying that like if he's not maintaining gnome calendar anymore like i'd be the next maintainer like the next in line and i'm like well if that ever happens the next day it's gonna be a deprecation like note because there's no way i will maintain a massive app like gnome calendar and yeah it's i just like i cannot i cannot fathom. I do not understand how George is... How he can maintain

GNOME Calendar and then XGDSL Portal. And then he also does other stuff. He's heavily involved in OBS Studio. And then he also brought the file picker... Sorry, the thumbnails in the file picker and all that which required several rewrites as far as I know

this guy is just a saint I can't yeah I'm sorry no, no, it's fair, I agree he does incredible work there are some devs out there who like, you know I'm sorry. No, no, it's fair. I agree. Like, he does incredible work. There are some devs out there who, like, you know,

there's a lot of devs who will work on one project, but there are a handful of them out there who just want to make everything better. Like, Neil Gomp is also a really good example of this. Like, he just shows up. Like, I will just be like, oh, look at this cool project. I look at the the contributor list and it's just nil gone but they're like why are you here what are you doing here why are you everywhere yeah it's yeah it's like that kind of the same way gnome at least like uh there are some people who randomly message me sometimes for like um skelly jump scare for example um because like or like anything flatback or gnome like you're just gonna see me in the contributors list and they're just gonna be like oh it's

kelly jump scare or skelly spotted it's it's funny it's it's nice like it is a nice feeling that people do recognize you and stuff like that but yeah it's so like wonderful that we have people like georges and neil gompa and oro as well sure sure um and yeah it's uh yeah i would like to like mention other people as well but it's just that they don't they don't do it very publicly because they don't want to be harassed by others so like yeah it's it's fair you know i i do spot a lot of, like, names that seem like they're reoccurring across various different things. Like, that I just don't hear anything from. Like, they're just, like, they don't have a big social media presence or anything like that. They just sort of, like, do their thing.

Which is probably for the best, really. Like... Yeah, it is. It is. Like, you don't need to be getting into fights with people on Mastodon. Like, just go develop stuff. If that's the thing you want to do go develop stuff, go outside spend time with people in the real world

just never interact with anyone just don't do it, it's not worth it yeah or like not just argue on Macedon just being very like just being what's it called, I guess I don't like saying the word internet famous but

i guess that's the best way to say it like like the moment you're internet famous it's like it's you're done for yeah and i know this from experience because like 4chan is a thing and well matrix is a thing yeah just don't don't do it not worth it yeah fine yeah exactly yeah but interestingly though like there are a lot there's like there's this one person i'm friends with like um um he's uh i mean i'm not gonna say his name name because I don't want him to be harassed. He recently got... Actually, I think... When was it?

I think a year ago or something. He was accepted to be a GNOME Foundation member at 15 years old. He was 15. That's one of the things I really love about gnomes just like it's there's a wide it's you know it's actually inclusive like it is not just like you know as others would say like oh this is not just like woke stuff um but like it is like there's a wide variety of people with different backgrounds with different opinions that you know we actually come together and like we actually contribute to the project and man it's not obviously it's not just GNOME, it's KDE as well. Like, I guess Linux as well. Linux kernel.

As far as I know, there was the youngest, or like, age, or... How do I say this? Like, the person, like... I'm not sure if you're aware, there was a six-year-old girl who actually contributed to the next kernel i did see that yeah uh modifying the documentation yeah or something like that it's absolutely crazy and it's just you know it's wonderful to see like people from different ages different places and all that actually coming together yeah except for chat and and uh um hacker news except those kinds of people for onyx comment section oh my god how can you is a really weird one right like because half the time it'll be you know like a a well-informed discussion and then it just goes completely

off the rails for onyx I don't think they have rails. For Onyx, it just goes where the first comment will usually be like, hey, this is a cool thing, and then it's just like, yeah, let's go this direction instead. Focus on something entirely random that has nothing to do with what we're actually talking about.

Yeah, and let's just trash the project at the same time while we're at it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's i remember uh i remember like uh recently um the fsf at a code of conduct on one of their projects um i think it was glips or glipsy maybe i don't remember one of the two i know what you're talking about. Yeah. And you look at the comment section, you'll just find random people say that.

Oh, okay, I'm not going to contribute to that project anymore. And I fucking bet you, you've never contributed to the project. Like, I fucking bet you it's always like that. Yeah, it was Glipsy. The people who just... Yeah. They just say things but they never actually did it to be to be um to begin with well the thing is their code of conduct isn't even like

that crazy like there are some projects there there are some code of conducts i do have some some like severe disagreements with but like this one is just like don't be a arsehole that's pretty much what it is is it don't be an arsehole in a lot more words out of curiosity uh which kudo conduct do you disagree with because i have concerns with the contributor covenant i don't go as crazy with it as some people do um yeah but like this does like this is just like don't be don't be stupid basically it's like don't harass developers effectively is what it's saying yeah the it's the like i usually i like i feel like a lot of the time um when it comes to coda context and they're just like don't be an asshole it it's very unclear what asshole means like it it also goes to that because there

are some people who live on the edge like you know yeah they're not enough to be considered an asshole for a lot of people but they are very annoying they're just a nuisance i think the and a good argument you can make against code of conduct is if you do have one that is going to bring out the people who feel the need to push the line whereas if you didn't have it there they might not try to push it as hard yeah that's true but at the same time you're also like one thing that i really like about code of conducts is that it makes it very clear like your intentions and because when projects don't have a code of conduct it's like well if it's a small project it's fine but it's if it's a big project and it doesn't have a code of conduct it's like like i'm not really sure i i don't think i'd feel comfortable um like really being uh participating

in it um but if we look like gnome for example like i think that's everybody or like a lot of those kinds of people really hate gnome's code of conduct i know if you ever heard it uh ever read it um hold on let me now i found it let me send the link i got it already there's this one section uh hold on uh i mean most of it is i guess it's fine. There's this one section that is safety versus comfort. The GNOME community prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort. For example, it's in situations involving reverse-ism,

including reverse racism, reverse sexism, and cisphobia. That was the only, I guess only thing that people had an issue with but it's also worth noting that I think it's very controversial I think it's fair because a lot of minority groups

a lot of people who often go through like racism or you know transphobia or just anti-lgbt whatever it is is that they suffer a lot of trauma related to that and so it is kind of understandable that they might have a clear distaste against for example like cis people and I learned this from experience as well that like there are people who were mean to me just because I was like

cis or you know just like that like before I didn't really understand it but like now i'm it's like i'm starting to understand it like it's people who are like it's genuine problems like that people don't really talk about it because they're not comfortable talking about it um it's like like especially when like for example um a trans person who is like who have like very transphobic

parents or anything like that it's like you know difficult for them to um socialize with or like you know I guess we could say like I guess like um cis people if that makes sense like

so like that's why like at first i was a little bit hesitant like i was like now to be fair i don't think it's worded well i don't think it's like well explained at all like i do think it's really badly uh conveyed but i do get the point and i do agree with the like the intention itself i think the issue with including something like this is the way people are going to interpret it is yes you're in favor of supporting these marginalized groups but yes, you're in favor of supporting these marginalized groups, but people are going to, especially with the way it's worded,

you said it's worded really badly, and I do agree with that. People who, especially people who are looking for reasons to hate GNOME, are going to say, okay, well, that means they're in support of hating white people, of hating cis people, so on and so forth. It's like they see it as, you're not just of hating white people of hating cis people, so on and so forth. It's like, they,

they see it as you're not just trying to protect people. They see it as you are actively against people who are not in those groups. Yeah, exactly. Like, obviously if you say that all white people should die, like, yeah,

you're going to get bad for that. Please don't say that on my channel. Jesus Christ. I don't know what YouTube's auto detection is gonna do with that oh shit i mean i guess you could cut it off it's fine it's two hours in we'll see what happens but yeah it's like right exactly like i just don't agree with how it's like conveying but i do agree with the point and i do agree like you know if someone or like let's say a black person who is like who doesn't like white people i think that's a lot more fair than a white person

being against black people you know um because one of them is actually suffering from trauma the other one isn't um so like you know it's fair like if you know like at least the moderators or like the code of conduct like committee don't do anything like or well they don't take a severe punishment take a severe punishment to the marginalized person because, well, you know, there's a personal problem with that as well.

And that's one of the reasons why I really love Gnome's Code of Conduct. Actually, there's also this one section that really, that I think explains really well. Sadly, no one talks about it. But you'll see the third point.

Listen to marginalized groups, but try not to put the burden of education on them. And I think that's a wonderful way of saying it because uh um because like you know when you when you have to explain your trauma it's it's like well it's a traumatic experience you don't want to do that and you know you're gonna feel bad and you know that section does explain it really well that like you know it is a mentally taxing when you have to explain your yourself like especially from your own trauma and it's like that's one of the reasons why i just love gnomes because they actually do care about that like for them like they care less about a maintainer or a developer or like a contributor

being rude or sorry not rude but like being like your idea is stupid then like you know that's a lot less of an issue than being racist or transphobic or whatever you know like in many in some ways being assholes uh being an asshole is allowed but don't be like uh uh racist or anti-lgbt or whatever like you know don't actively um what's the word? discriminate groups but yeah like yeah I mean I went really off the rails but what I meant to say is like

that's like one of the reasons like I'm in support of quota context it's like you know it's publicly displayed that okay they want to protect those groups and support of code of conduct it's like you know it's publicly displayed that okay they like they want to protect those groups and that's that's fine like i'm all for it well i think it's important to make the priorities of the project clear like whatever they're going to be have them laid out

like i think that part of a code of conduct I definitely can agree with for sure if this is the stance the project wants to take make it clear that's the stance the project is going to take not hey we're just going to randomly get rid of people because

I just feel like doing it right now I just have an issue with them at this very moment yeah it makes it clear from the beginning what you're getting yourself involved with I just feel like doing it right now. I just have an issue with them at this very moment. Yeah. It makes it clear from the beginning what you're getting yourself involved with. Yeah. Sadly, it's just not worded well. Mm-hmm.

But the... What's it called? Oh, my God. The one that you had an issue with yeah that one it's kind of similar i'm pretty sure it's like almost the same it's like or like or is there like something that like you really have i haven't read it in a while i i would need to reread it to um find the exact things but um we have passed the two hour mark now so we probably should be wrapping this up anyway all right yeah so uh let people know where they can find your stuff or whatever you want to

shout out if you want to shout out a project or something to get more developers on it yeah gnome um obviously um yeah it's i mean it's worth noting that like you know at face value like it might look like a very corporate project but in reality like if you actually look and like if you actually like spend your time in gnome you'll realize that there's a lot of, uh, um, there's a lot of, uh, volunteers. Um, and there's also like Google's, uh, summer of code as well, like where a lot of the maintainers, um, um, help or they, they teach, uh, students, um students with coding. And it's also that, like, you know, even if you're a new developer, like, if you look at GNOME projects, like, you know, any project,

like, including GNOME Calendar, Nautilus, you can, there is a newcomers tag where new developers or developers who are not really familiar with GNOME's code bases can actually start somewhere or even ask questions or whatever. One thing's for sure is that

if you need code advice or if you want to ask for implementation details um i do think that the developers are really nice like with that like they're going to give a lot of feedback and like when i say feedback they are going to give a lot of feedback like i remembered like there are times when I contributed to GNOME Calendar. Even for an extra new line, George will review that and be like, remove that new line.

That's how picky someone can be, but I do think it's the right thing to do. They want good code. the right thing to do like they want good code so yeah um right yeah i didn't mean to talk that much no no i was just telling myself so good we're good um yeah gnome i guess um oh vanilla os why not uh there's a discord server you can say hi to us if you want there's yeah I guess like I'm on Macedon there's my blog

as well there's my YouTube channel I don't post anything really but I mean if you want to see my my course project I guess, if you want to see my course project, I guess you're welcome to. Cool. What else?

I mean, I would say Twitter, but fuck Twitter. What else? Yeah, I guess that's it. I'm not really involved that much online anymore like i kind of stopped uh well i didn't stop but i don't write as many blog posts anymore because like 4chan fair enough yeah yeah so that's all you want to say yeah i guess yeah i guess that's fine yeah okay, awesome. As for me, my main channel is Brody Robinson.

I do Linux videos there six-ish days a week. I've got my gaming channel, Brody on Games. I stream there twice a week. Clips go up every other day. I stream Thursday, Friday, 10 a.m. ACDT. And right now I'm playing through The World Ends With You and Neptunia. Be sure to check that out. If you're listening to the audio version of this,

you can find the video version on YouTube at tech over T. If you're watching the video, you can find the audio on any podcast platform. There is an RSS feed sticking your favorite app and you'll be good to go. What do you want to say? How do you want to sign us off? Um, uh,

well, I was not prepared for that. No one is. I guess I could, I guess I prepared for that. No one is. I guess I can just say goodbye. See you guys later.