Tech Over Tea - Should I Become A Fedora Linux User? | Neal Gompa

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

It's been a while since I last had Neal Gompa back on the show but he's once again to talk about Fedora Linux, what's going on with Fedora KDE, how Fedora change proposals function and much more. ==========Support The Channel========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson ==========Guest Links========== Github Sponsor: https://github.com/sponsors/Conan-Kudo Github: https://github.com/Conan-Kudo Gitlab: https://gitlab.com/Conan_Kudo Twitter: https://twitter.com/Det_Conan_Kudo Mastodon: https://fosstodon.org/@Conan_Kudo ==========Support The Show========== ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/brodierobertson ► Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/BrodieRobertsonVideo ► Amazon USA: https://amzn.to/3d5gykF ► Other Methods: https://cointr.ee/brodierobertson =========Video Platforms========== 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBq5p-xOla8xhnrbhu8AIAg =========Audio Release========= 🎵 RSS: https://anchor.fm/s/149fd51c/podcast/rss 🎵 Apple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tech-over-tea/id1501727953 🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3IfFpfzlLo7OPsEnl4gbdM 🎵 Google Podcast: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xNDlmZDUxYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== 🎵 Anchor: https://anchor.fm/tech-over-tea ==========Social Media========== 🎤 Discord:https://discord.gg/PkMRVn9 🐦 Twitter: https://twitter.com/TechOverTeaShow 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/techovertea/ 🌐 Mastodon:https://mastodon.social/web/accounts/1093345 ==========Credits========== 🎨 Channel Art: All my art has was created by Supercozman https://twitter.com/Supercozman https://www.instagram.com/supercozman_draws/ DISCLOSURE: Wherever possible I use referral links, which means if you click one of the links in this video or description and make a purchase we may receive a small commission or other compensation.

Good morning, good day, and good evening. I am, as always, your host, Brody Robson, and today we have the person in every SIG you can possibly think of, or if not in the SIG, they're at least in the discussion thread somewhere. Welcome back to the show, Neil Gompa, Conan Kudo. How's it going? Well, it's going great. This time, we have not scheduled it where you're doing this at bloody midnight. No. That's true. This time, this is a reasonable hour, right?

Yeah, it is currently... You didn't trick me. 9.52 a.m. So it's 8.22 p.m. over here. Mm-hmm. Also, seriously, Australia and its stupid time zones. What made them decide to go back to having this crazy time zone setup that they had in the 90s i remember them to going to okay we're just gonna have three time

zones and they're going to split the country evenly and now we're back to three time zones plus two more that are just like sideways yeah don't forget yeah. Yeah, we have daylight savings in certain states as well. Not all of them. So, yeah. Also, for anyone who doesn't know, we have 30-minute time zones. So along the middle. So Northern Territory doesn't respect daylight savings. So they're always plus 9.30. I'm in South Australia. so that is plus 930,

except when it's plus 1030. And then the rest of the country doesn't acknowledge daylight savings. I thought Queensland did. Wait, is this map wrong? Maybe they got rid of it. Maybe they did something sensible. But for some reason... Sensible?

Sensible in time zones? When you have half- hour time zone offsets sensible does not enter the equation what if i told you that there were unofficial 45 minute time zones so along certain highways truckers will respect a 45 minute time zone see this is how i felt when you were talking about your dual fiber look man i don't have dual fiber i said i might oh you might be right right right right i have no idea if i can get it this is just my cable company so my main connection is fiber and i have a backup cable connection my cable company keeps pitching to me fiber and I have a backup cable connection. My cable company keeps pitching to me fiber and when I keep putting my address

in the system, it says you can't have fiber. And so I'm in the Schrodinger's mode of being marketed something that doesn't exist. So... That's great. No. Well, something you do have, your new framework. How's that going for you? Oh my gosh.

So I've been doing this off and on for like, um, about a week now. Um, I, I moved, I, so I was previously using a really old,

um, Linux laptop. That's got like eight gigs of Ram, four cores, um, 200, uh, 128 gig storage.

It was so small. I could barely store a chromium on there and have to build and Linux kernels to build code. I was deleting stuff just trying to make everything fit. I was like, all right, I am doing so much crap. I need a machine that's actually powerful at home. And let's see if I can get something I can travel with. So first thing is the framework 16 is phenomenal. It feels great. I also was crazy. I got the Rainbow Vomit version. That means I've got rainbow colorways on the side cups, and I've got an RGB keyboard on the thing. I have not yet figured out how to configure it.

I am going to figure that out, and then I'm going to do crazy things with it, especially with Plasma 6.1 being able to support mapping the color accent to the RGB. That's going to be fun. I did hear about that, yeah.. That's going to be fun. I did hear about that, yeah. That is absolutely going to be fun. I am looking forward to that.

But this thing is heavy. It is almost six pounds. I cannot carry this around. So this is staying at home, and it's probably just going to move around with me while I'm walking around the house, but it absolutely is not traveling with me. It is too heavy.

But I've been very pleased with how easy it has been to bring everything up. Having all the hardware work has been really nice. It's also interesting going back to a non-widescreen aspect ratio on a screen. What is the

aspect ratio on it? I think it's 3x2. Oh. Okay, I thought that screen looked a little bit odd. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think it's 3x2. It's been almost, oh gosh, what was it, 15 years since I've had a computer screen that wasn't 16x9?

Hmm. Like, the last time I had one was 5x4. It was 1280x1024. It was a Dell Ultrasharp monitor that I got with a Dell Dimension 5100C, I want to say. I don't remember,

but it was a Windows XP Media Center computer, and I had the old fancy IR blaster and XP Media Center stuff, and I had it plugged in with a TV tuner that connected out to cable TV, and I had it doing the DVR thing and all that stuff. But it did come with an LCD monitor. It was my first LCD monitor.

And it was 5x4. But that was the first and last computer screen until now where I had something that wasn't 16x9 for a flat panel. Because I think it was shortly after that that everyone got onto the HD craze. because I think it was shortly after that that everyone got onto the HD craze. Yeah. And so we went from having square and more square aspect ratios to fully cinematic ones.

Hmm. What, like, with the And of course. The, like, ultra-wide? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, well, so we went from, so ultra-wides are the newest era of this, but like, but originally like, when we went to the HD thing where they were talking about HD TVs and whatever Right, right, right. But originally, like, when we went to the HD thing, where they were talking about HD TVs and whatever,

they went to widescreen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember, 15 years ago, UltraWide was not a thing yet. UltraWide has only been a thing. 15 years ago, yeah. Okay, sorry, I was like 10 years old then. I was 11 years old. Yeah.

Well, look, I'm so old, I remember CRT TVs. Yeah. Well, look, I'm so old, I remember CRT TVs. We had a CRT TV, but I didn't know what CRT was back then. We just had an old TV. I had CRT monitors, VGA cables and everything. Like, I did it analog back then. But yeah, like, this framework gives me kind of echoes of the time when I first in the early days. And I actually think I like it.

I like having a screen that isn't cinematic because for document work and for code stuff, it's a lot nicer. I know a lot of people, what they do is they do the dual monitor thing and then they have a second monitor that's rotated portrait to kind of make up for it. But I don't have the space that's fair that's fair

like i upgraded to an ultra wide this um last year so now i have a um 1080p ultra wide so it's 2560 by 1080. um but it's also vrr enabled and high refresh rate which Ooh. Which I have been super... I have been super scared to use that full-time because I get... Because it's so good and I feel spoiled when I go to something else if I stare at it for too long. And so I've just not been turning it on.

I've been turning it down. Although the other side effect is that the computer isn't as loud when I'm at 60 hertz as opposed to 165 or 200. This monitor can go up to 200 hertz so but i have to plug it into displayport if i don't like displayport because stupid little wrong things and yes i know that there are cables that don't have them but that doesn't change the fact that i don't like them uh so um that overall what what's this to be plugging that one into or do you swap it around depending on what you're using? So this is plugged into a two-display KVM, hardware KVM, that is using 4K60 HDMI, HDMI 2.0.

And then that HDMI 2.0 is going into a USB-C hub that is then plugged into my laptop. Oh, okay. The reason it was doing that is because I don't actually have enough USB-A ports to plug in everything. So I needed a hub so I could

plug everything back into the computer. Because, silly me, I only bought one USB-A thingy instead of, you know, three. Wait, wait, wait. What are you plugging into this system?

Well, so my keyboard and mouse needs a USB-A port. And the USB hub that I have that I plug in most of my devices, I have a 10-port USB 2.0 hub. That needs to be plugged into a USB-A port.

Right. And my webcam is a USB-A 3.2. Okay. So I need three. Okay, it's not as much as I thought then. Okay, that's fair. But like, I bought a 1TB card. Right. I bought a

I bought two USB-C, one USB-A, one terabyte card. I bought two USB-C, one USB-A, a display port, and an HDMI. And so I just don't have enough. I didn't pick the right combo. And I didn't realize it until after I got the computer

and tried to set it up. It's like, oh, I don't have the right combo for this. Well, luckily, you can get more of them. I did, luckily you can get more of them i did in fact get more of them see more it actually that is another thing that i'm super happy about like this was an unexpected thing that was great about it was like being able to swap out the connectors like screwing up the number of connect the connectors i have was not a permanent mistake and also when i first set up the framework i screwed up i didn't actually assemble it properly so i tore it back down and put it back together again twice and i honestly

it wasn't that bad sure it took longer for me to set it up because you know i messed up and i didn't install the storage the first time i assembled it, and then the second time I didn't actually put in the memory, so I had to take it apart and put it back again. You know, you know how people will like go through a build thing and then they'll be like, oh there's a missing screw. Your RAM's not a missing screw! I, I, well okay, so at the end I was almost like, do I have to take this apart again? Because there was this extra part that was in there that I didn't have a description of.

Right. No, it turns out that it's only needed if I unplug the dedicated GPU and put it in the expansion shell. I see. Because it's used as a dummy thing to cut off the power connection to the thing. Well, I'm never going to unplug the GPU, so I don't care.

Right. So I just was like, oh, okay, well then I don't need to do anything and I'm never going to unplug the GPU, so I don't care. Right. So I just was like, oh, okay, well, then I don't need to do anything, and I'm now done. So I didn't have to tear it down a third time to then put everything back, because in order to take the GPU out and to install anything there, you have to take the keyboard out, you have to take the colorways out, you have to take the trackpad off, and then you have to, like, unscrew all the panel things, and then pull the top off and then detach the bezel. Like, it's a bunch of stuff to actually take apart to, like, get to the innards. You're not really, you're not supposed to take it apart that much. But you can, and that's what's cool about framework. That is, and actually, I'm really looking forward to what happens in five years. Because five years is about the time where it's like,

okay, this has now gotten to be a little bit on the pokey side what do right right like normally i've been the reason i hadn't bought a computer in 10 years so we were talking about how this is like the first computer i bought in 10 years for myself which is usually the reason i don't do that is because i really just i don't like having to spend money that isn't going to wind up being a real investment. And if and whenever I buy a computer, like I wind up having this kind of paralysis of like, have I thought through everything that I'm going to need this for? Am I going to be like, fine with this? Yeah. And it's just like, with desktop compute with with and the

last time I bought a computer, I bought a pre built desktop. And the reason I bought a prebuilt desktop was because after the Thailand floods, all the parts were so expensive that it wound up being cheaper for me to buy a pre-built than it was to assemble a computer. By a lot. And the thing I found myself trapped in was with the pre-built computer,

the innards are so custom that I can't actually upgrade anything. Right, right, yeah. And that sucks, too. There are some OEMs that are better at it but yeah depending on who you go with it can yeah definitely a big problem i bought a dell oh yeah okay then yeah there's no hope there there's no hope there but in the past i had good experiences with dell i actually i my first desktop computer i first computer i paid for myself was a Dell Dimension then the next one I bought was an

HP Pavilion and that Pavilion was pretty good and then I bought a Pavilion again and then it was bad and then I switched to a Dell again and that's what I've got here for my Windows computer and then of course you, I have a MacBook.

And I've been a Mac user for 18 years now, I think. Wow. I've been a Mac user for almost... I was going to say, what does that put you as your first version of Mac OS? I think that puts me at

10.3 or 4. Wow think it's 2000 yeah like because so i first was a i first used mac os x tiger as a hackintosh on an old compact for sario laptop that i dug out of somewhere okay and then a few years later i got i won a macbook pro from sourceforge uh just before i started college okay and after that i i've had max as my primary laptops ever since and the big reason for that was that they were powerful and lightweight i basically can't carry laptops like the thing like this framework around on my back anymore. That's understandable, yeah. It will actually seriously hurt if I do.

And so I don't. But for a long time, MacBooks were the only real choice for a powerful machine that was under five pounds. And of course, now we have MacBooks that are too heavy for me to carry around. The MacBook Pro that I do development for Fedora Asahi Remix is actually on borderline for me to carry around. Like, the MacBook Pro that I do development for Fedora Asahi Remix is actually, like, on borderline for me. On weight. And it's just like,

well, this is unpleasant. Like, my MacBook from 2014, which is my Intel MacBook, is lighter than the ARM MacBook. And the ARM MacBook has a smaller logic board, has less parts inside, but it has so much more battery it makes up for it in spades. Oh, that makes sense! Okay. Yep. And also the weight is horribly unbalanced, so it just feels bad, because it's battery.

Not like machinery. Where's the battery located? Like, the front or the back? I'll imagine it's the back. It's actually closer to where the trackpad is. That's where the battery locates like the front of the back i'll imagine it's the back it's it's actually closer to where your the trackpad is that's what the battery usually that makes sense because if you if it was at the back and try to hold it up from like the front of it it would probably like really like fall down so i guess putting it to the front makes sense yeah well the actual reason is because the vents are in the back and you would like that would be very bad for all the heat to go right where the battery is that's true like i don't know about you but i don't really want my batteries exploding dude it's like going out of temperature range yeah we had that happen i don't know if you've noticed

but macs are not good thermally no no they are not they are very bad thermally they really like i i get what apple's doing they really want to like cut the fan as much as possible and they want to like have silent and i get it right but i don't want a fire hazard like i i will have a bit of white noise to avoid a fire hazard uh yeah like honestly the main thing i'm actually worried about with my framework right now is the noise factor if i do a stream will it be so loud that i can't nobody can hear me because whenever i'm doing compiling the thing is so loud that it the audio like is like it it it overpowers me playing music. Well, that is my main,

that's my main complaint at this point. And I'm trying to figure out if I can do like some power tuning because I don't need it to go full throttle. I really don't. And if I can make it, if I can take it down several notches and keep it from getting that loud, then that would be great.

Like thankfully right now, like what we're talking here and all that loud, then that would be great. Thankfully, right now, when we're talking here and all that stuff, it's quiet. I really hope Discord is not throttling it. Yeah, well... The other thing I found out that was kind of a surprise was plugging in...

So I went and bought a USB-C hub right before this. I walked over to the Best Buy. I went there and picked it up and came back. And the USB hub has actually USB-PD pass-through. That pass-through doesn't work with the framework at all. You can't use it. So you can plug in things through the hub,

but if you try to use USB power pass-through, the displays stop working. So apparently, like, it's still glitchy for that kind of stuff. At this point, I'm blaming the AMD, the motherboard and the USB controller that's in these things, because, like, this is not the first AMD-powered laptop where I've seen this problem, where, like, it's actually a pain in the butt to get these hops to do the right thing um this is actually the other thing where i'm like you know what maybe it's better

that i don't do amd for a travel laptop because like every amd powered laptop i've actually run across has had serious problems with travel docks docking stations the works okay um so most likely um if i were to buy another computer for travel purposes which i'm really not going to i have plenty of them as it is i don't need more um uh it would probably be intel based for the sole reason that thunderbolt works right okay that makes. Not having Thunderbolt would be a real problem. Like, actually, let me take a look. I don't know. This is supposed to have Thunderbolt on here? I don't

think it... Oh, it does. No Thunderbolt device is connected, but it detects a Thunderbolt hub. That is unusual for an AMD device. Thunderbolt is typically not available on AMD platforms for most computers. I didn't... Actually, no. That know that makes sense right because isn't... Because Intel owns it!

Right yes I complete because it got associated with Apple for so long and didn't ever really appear on anything else I completely forgot about that. Yeah so Apple and Intel own the Thunderbolt standard. Okay right that makes sense. Yeah, so Apple and Intel own the Thunderbolt standard. Okay, right, that makes sense. So here we are, right? It would have been nice if years ago Thunderbolt did become a more common thing, but I guess we have USB-C doing their different things now. I mean, it's the same thing that happened with FireWire.

Yeah. Well, think about what happened with FireWire, right? doing their different things. I mean, it's the same thing that happened with Firewire. Yeah. Well, think about what happened with Firewire, right? IEEE 1394 didn't really take off because Sony made it difficult for everyone to have it. Stop it. Stop it. You don't know... Wait, say that again. You don't know

the IEEE number for Firewire, do you? Yeah, IEEE 1394. Uh, 1394. 1394. Of course you know that. Dude, I spent years working in AV stuff. I'm going to know what

the Firewire spec is. Yeah, okay. Okay. Look, okay, like at one point I did fan dubs, I did music production stuff, I did fan subbing and dubbing work, I did and I've done podcast stuff.

I've done, like, 10 years ago, I was also a YouTuber briefly, doing, like, mobile tech stuff. Like, I do know my way around these things. Even though it doesn't look like it, and I don't do a lot of it now, that doesn't mean I don't know how it works. I always forget just how many things

that you've gotten involved with, or how many things you're involved with now and if that's how many you're involved with now I guess there's probably a lot of stuff that you've just left behind in the past as well yes, more or less but also part of it is my focus has changed

like in 10-15 years ago I was more into telecommunications than I was into into software stuff and before that i was more into av production so my first real interest the thing that originally drove me to linux i've told you this before was doing av stuff and and that was that was what like made me become interested in lin in the first place. So of course I learned a lot about AV stuff. And then later I got into telecom stuff because cell phones and all that stuff picked my interest.

And then I graduated college and went to go be a software engineer. And so that happened. And here we are. I don't do software engineering either I haven't been a software engineer in in a decade uh I was a DevOps engineer uh for a long time and then I was a sales guy for like a hot minute that sounds and now here I am I don't know what I'm doing but I'm I'm consulting i guess that's that's what i do now like because i've got my own uh i did see that yeah uh how's that going for you yeah

hey hey we'll see i set it up at the end of last year but which is in retrospect not the greatest time to start something no but hey uh i have to do it at some point. But the fun thing is, it means that Halloween is always going to be the anniversary of the company. That's cool. Yeah, because that's what it got incorporated. Hmm.

Yeah. It's a thing. Velocity Limitless is the company. I do stuff. And I'm involved in things. And I, you know, it's a thing I do. I think that's a good way to describe your entire life. I'm involved in things.

Well, I mean, I told you before. I do this because I feel like all this stuff has kind of given me a lot to work from and to benefit from. And I try to help others where I can. And so I try to lend my skills and expertise as a way to give back

what has been given to me. Right. For anyone who may not have seen the last episode, I don't need a full list, please. We don't need to be here all day but like a short list of the main things that you currently are focused on for anyone who's not aware now you gotta rank them and think about the ones you want to talk about right so um i

in no particular order because they will come to my brain as I talk. In Fedora, I'm involved in Fedora Workstation. I lead Fedora KDE. I lead Fedora Sahi. I'm involved in Fedora Cloud. I'm somewhat involved in Fedora Server. I'm involved in, I'm part of Fedora Python Go, co-founded Fedora Rust, and a few other things here and there. Like, there's a... I'm also

helping out in Fedora Looks Cute, Fedora Budgie, and a few other things that are going to be coming down the pipe in the next few weeks or months. And in CentOS, I am the co-chair of the CentOS Hyperscale SIG, along with

Davide Calvica. Cavalca. Yeah, I think that's right. Cavalca. Cavalca. Yes. Davide's going to see this, and he's going to wonder why I'm stumbling over his name.

And it's just, I'm sorry, dude. But in my head, the syllables just jumble up in their emphasis and it screws me up. But Davida and I are co-chairs for the CentOS Hyperscale SIG. I also help out with the Dora and CentOS infrastructure.

I am also doing some, I help out with the CentOS alternative images, which produces live media based on CentOS stream with the CentOS alternative images which produces live media based on CentOS stream with the various desktops along the lines of the spins that you have in Fedora this is what the alt images SIG provides for CentOS people

it's actually really new they spun up and produced their first artifacts in February and they just made their first update release actually last week so that's a thing And they just made their first update release actually last week. So that's a thing, you know, sigs.centos.org slash alt images. Let's see what else.

So that's CentOS and Fedora. And OpenSUSE, I'm a member of the OpenSUSE board. I am involved in the project management for OpenSUSE Leap. I contribute to OpenSUSE Leap and Tumbleweed. I maintain a bunch of packages. I mean, I also maintain a bunch of packages in Fedora, too. That goes without saying. But, like, and then I guess I help out with OpenSUSE Calpa. So Sean Dunn, who's the guy who leads OpenSUSE Calpa,

which is formerly OpenSUSE Microwave So Sean Dunn, who's the guy who leads OpenSUSE Calpa, which is formerly OpenSUSE MicroOS Desktop with KDE Plasma. That's such a bad name. I'm glad it changed. Look, it's a mouthful. I am happy that this is Calpa now. Well, fun fact about Calpa. Kalpa and aeon are in rough synonyms. Aeon is, of course, the Greek word for millennium, and kalpa is roughly translated to millennium in English because it effectively is considered the same as an aeon in Sanskrit. So, I think it's like 4.2 billion years is what the mathematical representation of a cow but is And you know like how people say you'll be remembered for millennia in in India clang which is people will say you'll be remembered for a cow. So it's like the same thing right right, right

so So cow po is the KD one and a on is the gnome one that's run by Richard Brown And is the KDE one, and Aeon is the GNOME one that's run by Richard Brown. And, okay, going down the list further, Magia, I contribute packages to it. I'm technically part of the Magia Council, as well as the Magia Org Board, which is the association that actually owns the project um i am also a member a package or contributor to open mandriva i have contributed to rosa linux i have which is um a fork of open mandriva i have contributed to yachto briefly some of my patches are still there i think um uh let's, what else have I done? I've done some stuff in Debian and Ubuntu.

My name shows up a little bit there. And of course, more recently, I've gotten involved in free desktop stuff, Wayland Protocol reviews, and things like that. And this is your fault, Brody. I blame you. I am running for being on the XOR board.

Oh! Wow! Have you actually not looked since you... Have you not actually looked at that page since you made that video? There's a lot of things. You should go look. Wait, uh... XOR board... Board of directors?

XOR board elections 2024. Board... Okay, thank you. Yeah, I've not looked at it since since then I assume there are people actually running now not that many but yes yeah oh Simon's running was he there before? was he running before?

no he's new David Heidelberg I know that name he's new. Okay. He's new. David Heidelberg, I know that name. He's Calabra, he works on Mesa stuff, I think. I've probably seen him in Mesa stuff. Okay, yeah. Mark Fillion from Calabra as well, I don't recognize that one. Eric Fale- there's a lot of Calabra people on here, wow. Yeah, that one's a little weird. But yes, I think all of them are Mesa and X.Org developers. I know Eric Faye is... I see him in Mesa a lot. Mesa, Pan, Frost, Open Graphics generally. Okay.

I've seen David, I think, in X.Org and in Mesa. Um... I don't know about Mark Fillion. I've seen David, I think, in X.Org and in Mesa. I don't know about Mark Fillion. I haven't... I don't actually remember where I've seen him before. I have seen him before, but I don't remember where. And then there's me. And then there's you.

I'm just there. I don't do much. I'm just there. When are the... When are the election... Oh, so the election... It should be on the... I'm just there. When are the... Oh, so the election... It should be on the page. Sorry? The details of the election periods are on the page.

Election planned in April 8th. Okay, well, it's over now. I don't know if that... Yeah, it's done. So they just count out votes then? Yeah, it's electronic voting so the votes have already been tallied okay they're just um waiting on some date to release results yep um but that's why i was i felt okay with breaking it up because it's already over and

there's no way you can game the system i also figured that you completely forgot you made a video about it no i remember the video I just forgot to check back in on it. That happens to a lot of topics I do. People are like, hey, do you want to do an update on this thing? This thing's all changed. Like, oh, I should do that, shouldn't I? This is the problem with talking about as many things as I do. Occasionally, I just forget that I talked about it

or forget that I should check back in and just see what's going on um yeah welcome to my world if your world's a lot more important than mine i just talk about shit look dude my world's not that important because all the stuff i do doesn't mean anything if no one knows about it that's fair yeah i get that being said a lot i'm i'm real bad at the self-promotion thing mostly because i have low self-esteem like a lot of other people and it is uh uh it is not easy to talk about the stuff that i do or work on and another part of it is it's hard to feel like i'm not bragging when i talk about this stuff right i think a lot of developer types who actually do a lot of this stuff struggle to figure out what the right balance is for communicating this kind of stuff

because it's really easy to sound like a braggart to people who don't. It's easy to be misinterpreted. And so a lot of people just don't bother. Right. Who are detriment, really. I have talked to a bunch of people about like who are like more outgoing who are they feel like a lot of devs are really bad at the like outward

communication like they're great at talking about things internally with other developers and feature things they want to do but when it comes to promoting that work whether it be their individual work or even just the project level work a lot of people are really bad at even just communicating in a very technical way to people outside the project and i i do get that like it i i can see how that would feel like bragging how it how it could feel like just i don't know maybe some people feel like it they're like looking down on people by doing that or however like i get it it makes sense right um a lot of people actually have really great conversational skills but the problem is the way because it is because there's this stigma and the stereotypes around around engineers you know how you know there's people who say that oh engineers they can't be social they hide in a basement and then they just do stuff and no one knows what

they're doing and they can't really communicate or whatever it's like what in what world are you living in like most most engineers have to know how to communicate because they have to to be able to succeed at what they're doing no the reason that they don't communicate as much as because to the outside to the other outside stakeholders is because it's really hard to do it without sounding like a, like a jerk to some people, right? Like, you know, a lot of times the developer discussions wind up being where someone has to put their foot down and actually state an opinion strongly and state a direction. And if, if it's misinterpreted, it sounds like this person is just ignoring everybody, what they're saying. Like, this is a thing I have to deal with a lot

with, you know, leading Fedora KDE when I am by nature, a collaborative leader. I don't actually like making unilateral decisions. It sucks. And I always feel bad when I do it. But I also know that leadership means sometimes you have to. And like, no one is usually happy when it when something like that happens. And I, you know, that when with the Katie plasma six change, like it was, it was difficult. Like it was, it was difficult. People didn't really, like people really didn't want to understand it on the merits or try to, you know,

do the right kind of analysis to understand where the gaps are. But in the end, right? Like I still think that that conversation went fairly productively because the end result is we got color management a whole release early

basic color management came a whole six months earlier than it was supposed to we got a lot of other things in place much earlier kd plasma now actually works properly on wayland in a virtual machine which it didn't before and. And I'm telling you this because I have tested every single release of KDE Plasma in VMware Workstation, Hyper-V, and in KVM since Fedora 34 with Wayland by default. And it has gone back and forth between working to being completely, utterly broken. And it's because people just aren't really using it. They didn't really feel the need to prioritize making sure it worked. Well, during the plasma six development, because of this, there was a guy who stepped up and said,

like, hey, I'm using X 11. Because VMware workstation, like when I'm trying to run plasma and VMware workstation, like it's all goofy and horrible. And I'm like, okay, well, let's let's work this out and put him in touch with the upstream developers. And the dude actually contributed code to fix it himself. He went through the effort of debugging. He was like, yeah, I know how this stuff works. So then he filed

bug reports. He made patches. He sent merge requests up. They got accepted. And Plasma 6 actually launched with working virtualization support, which is like, yeah, there's still goofy things around VirtualBox, but nobody can do anything about that. Like VirtualBox be VirtualBox. Right. But like for the most part, like I gave a talk to a Linux users group remotely just last week about KD Plasma 6 and Fedora KD.

And I did a demo where it was inside of GNOME boxes and streamed over. And I was just showing them, hey, this is what KD Plasma 6 and Fedora KD. And I did a demo where it was inside of GNOME boxes and streamed over and I was just showing them, hey, this is what KD Plasma looks like. This is what these things are. And someone asked me, well, I don't like this Windows-y paradigm. I want to have it look a little bit different and I want to have like a search bar.

I want the global menus. I'm like, okay, let's do this. And I did it on the spot. I just changed things on there and it didn't crash. It worked fine. And the end result was admittedly slightly ugly because I turned on the accent color and it turns out the accent color from the wallpaper is like this weird olive green color.

But. Okay. Cause this is Fedora 40 with the draft wallpaper. Like it's, and it's very green. And apparently the accent, the algorithm for the colors wound up being this very weird olive

earthy green color and I'm just like okay I guess that's what we're going with sure and it was fine and it recolored the icons and it did all the other stuff and it's like this is really cool this is a really

nice and and like people were so stoked like the kind of like there were people that were like oh yeah you know i'm using mate i'm using xfce i'm using these like i want to try out kde plasma now and i'm like this this is the whole point i want people to like set up and rethink their assumptions about, about KDE Plasma and Fedora KDE. And it's been, it's been interesting seeing how like people on the internet talk about us if we're the premium experience. I'm like, oh my gosh, just like a few years ago, that was, we were considered an also random kind of the dregs of the KDE experiences, like, and we're this far along the, you know, and, and, far along. And I'm so humbled and grateful and thankful for

the team and how much work that they've done to make it a reality. Because it's not just me, right? There's like 11 other people in the KDE SIG that do a bunch of work. And then there's, of course, hundreds of developers in KDE Upstream that do even more work. And it's all, it's a phenomenal combination. Yeah, it's a phenomenal combination. Yeah, it's, I don't know, words. I think Plasma, from my experience, like people have thought that I hate Plasma because a lot of the things I've said about it

have been, you know, fairly critical. But I think Plasma 6 is a great environment. I just think that it's, look, it's 27 years old. It's a 27-year-old software project that's had thousands of developers over the years, and there are parts of the code base that haven't been touched in a while. There are issues there, there are rough edges. It's not a perfect environment, but it's really good. Like, but it's really good. Like, it's a really good environment.

And don't just take my experience with the bad things I've had and just take that, like, as is. Try it out. Whether you try it on Fedora KDE or you want to try it on... Try it on Fedora KDE. You want to try... Or you want to try it out on Kalpa.

Do they have Plasma 6 yet? Or are they still... Yes. Okay. Kalpa is based on OpenSUSE tumbleweed so it rolls okay so it actually it has plasma six already right right right um i know kabuttu is not getting it um which is funny because they want to stick on 5 to 27 and yeah um it's actually what are your thoughts on that because i the devs the kd devs i've talked to they are like sort of, they're okay with it because they're going to keep supporting 5.27 for a bit anyway.

And it's an LTS release. But then the issue I have is by the end of the LTS, they're going to get four-year-old bug reports for 5.27. And they're going to like, this has been addressed for years now, which is, you know, the Debian effect, basically. Well, so, my thing about this is...

It's sort of sad, because we kind of... We intended to adjust the schedule for Plasma, Sol, Kubuntu, and Fedora could actually include it. But Kubuntu had organizational issues that needed to be worked out, and that sort of meant that it couldn actually include it. But Kubuntu had organizational issues that needed to be worked out, and that sort of meant that it couldn't do it.

In the future, it'll be easier for Kubuntu to adopt newer versions of Plasma. My concern about them being on Plasma 5, personally, is that we're already at the end of the life cycle for Plasma 5.

This is it. And this also kind of goes back to the larger problem that Plasma LTS is not really maintained. I hold the personal opinion that we shouldn't have a Plasma LTS. I think most people didn't even realize there was a Plasma LTS. That's probably a good thing for everybody involved. So technically, Katie... And you covered my thing on Reddit

where I posted about the life cycles. I did, yes. So Katie Plasma is actually three layers. You have frameworks at the bottom. You have Plasma in the middle. And then you have gear on the top. Frameworks is the libraries, yes? Yes.

Frameworks is the libraries that have a stable ABI. The applications. Okay. Just so people are clear on them. Awesome. Yep. So the frameworks, they're ABI stable throughout the whole major version. No one cares.

They don't need an LTS. That's fine. They get released monthly. The Plasma desktop is released, as you know, three times a year on strange offsets um the idea is that starting next year hopefully we will start moving to semi-annual synchronizing with fedora and kabuntu so more gnome like model yes actually explicitly, basically in lockstep with how GNOME releases.

Now, this middle part is special. This middle part gets an LTS release every once in a while. I forget what the cadence is, it's somewhere on the documents, but I don't care since we don't ship it. But that LTS version

does not get a lot of love by the, by the distributions that do ship it. Um, when we decided in Fedora KD to stop shipping Plasma LTS to CentOS and RHEL users, we did it because it was not a very good experience for our users. They were not happy, and they were filing bug reports on us about things that were broken that we knew were fixed in newer releases, but also that there was not people working on Plasma LTS in the first place. So the other distributions that were actually shipping Plasma LTS, Kabuntu and OpenSUSE Alip, don't really do anything to help make Plasma LTS any better. So it just kind of sits there and exists

in my mind as a fallacy of long-term maintained. So it's there, and if somebody wants to contribute bug fixes, they'll be accepted. But no one's actively going through and backporting fixes from future releases into the stable. Which is more of what you see

with the Linux kernel and other things. And notably, GNOME doesn't have an LTS. Okay. They don't do that at all. They just release every six months, and the distributor's got to pick up the slack on their own. Okay. So with Ubuntu LTS then, are they not shipping patches for that?

I don't use Ubuntu LTS. I'm not really sure on their release module. Are they backporting the patches themselves? Yes, that's what everybody does. Okay. So if you look at RHEL's GNOME shell, and you look at RHEL's GNOME, and you look at CentOS Stream,

because if you look at the CentOS Stream Git repositories for the GNOME packages, and if you look at Ubuntu's in Launchpad, and if you look at Openuntu's in Launchpad, and if you look at OpenSUSE's in the OBS, everybody's doing it on their own. There is actually no central LTS for GNOME. The GNOME project, I believe, historically

has said that they don't want to be in the business of long-term maintained stuff. And so they don't. And be in the business of long-term maintained stuff. And so they don't. And so the distributors that are shipping long-term maintained versions of GNOME are doing it on their own. And everybody picks a different version. Actually, this is why SUSE does a rebase every other year. So they're moving up to GNOME 45 with the upcoming Leap 15.6. In the past, Red Hat used to do rebases for RHEL's GNOME.

But now that they release RHEL every three years, it's a little less necessary. And then if you look at what Ubuntu does, is they don't do anything. They just, for the most part, what happens is they will backport fixes when they discover it. But again, their GNOME is highly customized.

They have their own non-upstream patches. And so for them, it's a very different situation from what SUSE and Red Hat do. So again, it's not a bad approach. It's not a good approach, whatever way you want it. I mean, depending on your perspective, it's a good or a bad approach. The main advantage, I think, to the Ubuntu approach is that they get to actually define their experience more.

And I actually feel like sometimes it gives Ubuntu slightly more power within the GNOME ecosystem by being able to say, like, if we don't like this, we're actually willing to ship something to our users to support their needs. ship something to our users to support their their needs um and and and this is actually kind of like the and i'm not saying it's like in a negative light or an antagonistic light right like um for fedora kd in particular when with plasma 5 they were single they were single click by default upstream and we were double we switched to double click because that was what user yeah every distro was doing double click so yeah well we were the last one to switch okay that was right that was that was the that was the that was the point where everybody started considering maybe we should do this upstream because at that point none of the big ones were doing it all the ones that were that typically go like vanilla were changing this default and so that point we're like okay and this is actually an important counterweight like you know how i know you've

talked about in your videos how like you know distributors should be getting out of the business of delivering software but i think it's actually important i to recognize that this is the counterweight that we actually do provide like by doing this we are able to also say, hey, our users are saying that stuff around this is not right. And we're able to push back and provide that feedback. Because when you funnel it, you know, when you look at the feedback funnel, when individual users are doing stuff and they give it, it's very unfocused. It's scattered. It's a lot of it. It's also easy to miss as noise. But then when it gets funneled down into the distributors and the distributors

are collating it and they're understanding and hopefully they're actually engaging with the user base that's actually they're shipping to, that turns into more focused, actionable feedback that you can then take back to the upstream project and say, hey, this is what our users are telling us. This is what we're doing in response to them. What do you think? What should we do here? And when you don't have that part of the loop, right, like you start having malfeasance in software development because you don't have the power balance. You don't have a you don't have the power balance you don't have a counterweight to what somebody does like so this is one of the reasons why i always have

mixed feelings about flat packs and snaps especially with how people talk about it's like the developer now fully controls that you're getting it as they envision right but like when you look at how that works out in other ecosystems and windows and mac it turns into sometimes abusive relationships with the users um the counterweight in open source is that and i think a lot of people have forgotten that we're not supposed to consider upstreams 100 good the fact that open source upstream projects are 100 are most of the time good i can't even 100% because we now know that that's not true. Definitely not 100%. But generally speaking,

upstreams are good not because they don't have the power to do something bad, but they know that we have the power to call them out. If you take that counterweight away, it becomes a lot easier to get down that downward spiral of user experiences.

I also regularly talk to people about, you know, they say, well, I hate Electron apps. I would rather have native apps. Yeah, okay, so what Electron apps do you use? Well, I use Skype. I use Discord. I use, you know, I use Teams. You know what all those things have in common. You don't get to choose what your user experience is.

You also don't get to choose whether you can use it or not. So my working theory has been for several years now is that if you are using an electron, if a if a software developer is giving you an electron app, it's either one of two things. Either one, they're just like really either one of two things either one they're just like really new to the whole app thing and they're just taking a web thing and then turning it into an app you see a lot of small apps like this with electron that way but if it's a company provided app or if it's something that's like a big time high production thing like visual studio

code like um like teams and skype and and, they use Electron because they know they don't have to work at providing a better experience. They don't have to because you are stuck. You can't say no. You can't walk away. And if you can't walk away, there is no incentive for anyone to do any better. So why should they bother to invest in performance resource resource usage um technologies integration why should they bother they don't have

a reason to either between network effects or being forced to by other external factors they know they they've got you and so this is why, like, look at this. Telegram's a native app, but Signal isn't. Element isn't. And we also, Discord isn't. Skype isn't. Slack isn't. These are, with the notable exception of Element, every single one of these apps I can't choose to use something else. If I can't choose something else, they don't have to choose to be better.

And so if you take it, if you think of it that way, a lot of decisions around how apps are being made make a ton more sense. As long as there's some kind of user or consumer or distributor side counterweight that they can say no, what do they have to do? They don't have to do anything. They don't have to listen to you. They don't have to care what you think. Hmm. I definitely see where you're coming from here it's just been my observations

over the 10 years of like doing this stuff and you know in corporate environments having to be part of that vendor engagement stuff like yeah we don't care what you think you don't have a choice yeah a lot of the people I've talked to about this are the developers who want to they want to have a choice. Yeah, a lot of the people I've talked to about this are the developers who want to, like, they want to have a, there's obviously reasons why developers would want to

have upstream packaging. Like, it makes it considerably easier to do debugging. You know that users are going to be running the application, assuming the solution is working properly, is going to be running in a consistent environment. That makes it considerably easy for them. So you don't have to worry about, oh, we have a Debian user here, they're reporting five-year-old bugs. They're not going to because they're running the latest version. From their perspective, that makes sense. And after the recent XE incident, I am definitely, I'm of two minds about this because I can absolutely see the value in doing it upstream. But I see where you're coming from with the downstream stuff as well. And,

I don't think the downstream stuff's ever going to go away. Like, there's always going to be a position the code's open source. If someone wants to distribute it, they can distribute it. Um, but, I don't, I don't know, this is, it's a really tough, really tough problem.

I don't think there is one side that is correct here. I do see where you're going with this, though. Hmm. What I'm making here is that you should celebrate that the counterweight exists, because what that does is it makes... It's a check that makes sure that people recognize that there's a there's

a power balance here and that they are motivated to not upset that balance in a negative way because they will be called out on it it's it's actually i think like my biggest problem with a lot of this stuff where like in principle flat and Snaps are probably fine, right? Like, we've talked about this before. They're fine, right? I personally have had subpar developer experiences working with Flatpaks. My understanding is that that is actually actively improving.

Yeah, that seems to be a common thing that's said. Like, the user experience is incredible. The developer experience is... It could be... Snap... Canonical's done an incredible job at making the Snap experience and getting people involved in the Snap ecosystem.

They've put a lot of effort into that, but Flatpak being a community-run thing, it's taken more time to get there. Well, and it's also the different aim. So if you look at where Snaps and Flatpaks originate from and where their motivations are, it's also like the different aim so like if you look at where snaps and flat packs originate from and where their motivations are it's a little different if you look at how flat pack works you got to build everything from source you got to produce your own bundles you got to do your own auditing and whatever and there's not a lot of help for you from from the flat pack and

flat hub people in this respect and then you have some of the frankly weird rules and guidelines that Flathub gives you, which I'm just like, why do we care about GNOME HIG in Flathub? This is like not a thing we should be like, conform to what guidelines? Whose guidelines? What are we talking about here?

But if you look at what they're talking about, they're talking about as if all the developers are affiliated with a particular ecosystem. But if you look at the Snap side of things, there's a basic assumption that the developer is an individual doing their own thing but they also want to do reuse in a trusted way so one of the core differences between snaps and flat packs that i i think snap does somewhat better is that out of the bay out of the gate you can reuse ubuntu packages or RPMs or whatever. You can reuse existing packages for constructing snaps. Outside of Fedora Flatpaks, that's not really a thing. You can't reuse existing packages

to construct your application bundles. So you don't have a trusted input pipeline for building Flatpaks. You get to be that raccoon digging out free code and hoping that everything is going to be fine i love it so much it's look man i i love that blog post since i first saw it two years ago and like when exorcist happened i'm like here this is important also i love that name for xz as well right so exorcist is justin flory who the fedora um the fedora community architect uh justin flory he came up with that name and i'm like i'm running with this this is fantastic and now it's like everywhere and i'm just like yes but like the

exorcist incident right i linked to that blog post about it and then you talked about it on on i don't know where you got it from because a bunch of other people did i think i might have seen your repost but yeah someone reposted it but like that that post that quote sticks with me forever you are a raccoon digging out free code, because that is what a lot of them do. Like, if you look at some of the Flatpak builds manifests, it's just, okay, we're gonna slap this thing, we're gonna slap that thing in, we're gonna run these things, we're gonna do these

flags, and we're gonna boom, done. Has anyone actually... The Audacity Flatpak, from my understanding, is unusable. I don't think it supports the file portal it's Wix widgets they don't have a whole lot of the stuff

working yet you can make the flat pack yeah but like but it's not good no yeah like but the point I'm making here is like

if you look at the manifest for a lot of these flatbacks it's just a list of tarballs that are probably not getting updated ever like and they're getting built and who knows what's going on

me no one else no one's looking at it no one cares like what's going on? Sure. Me. No one else. No one's looking at it. No one cares. Like, eh? Like, that's the... It leans,

from my perspective, it leans too far in the other direction. Is that a beanbag that looks like a cut-open avocado? What? Look, man, I don't know. Your right, from when I'm looking at you, your left, it's your right.

This side? Move your hand more. Turn your hand. Back point where the... Wait. That bean bag down there looks like it's a cut open avocado. Where is... Bean bag cut open avocado.

Bean bag, cut open avocado. Wait, like here? That one. I can show you what that is. Give me a second. Well, okay. That's not an avocado. So what was that? So it's not an avocado.

It's not an avocado or a beanbag, no. But hey, that's what it looked like in the shadow. Anyway, it was just a stream. Now you know that this is my ADD when I'm thinking about things. Stream of consciousness is super streaming. But like basically getting back to the Flatpak Snap thing, it's like the main concern I actually have about that stuff is on top of doing all that,

who's doing the compliance for any of that? A lot of those things actually include licenses that say that as you're distributing the binaries, you have to provide a source bundle with the corresponding recipes on how you built everything. Neither Flatpak nor Snap actually have a mechanism for providing you that. If you look at an RPM,

an RPM has a source RPM artifact. That source RPM artifact includes all the sources, all the patches, and the build instructions in a form that you can easily use to rebuild it. If you look at Debian, they have this weird DSC file that lists references to other files that basically give you a way to build it, right? But if you look at all the other things, right, this seems to be a thing everybody's kind of forgotten. They're like, oh, no, we can host on the GitHub's, or if you look at the Git repo, that's enough. It's like, that's not actually how that works. It's a serious problem that I feel that they don't really take enough care of.

The fact that there is no source artifact form for either flatback or snap is something that i have personally struggled with in trying to be able to endorse these things for any open source or proprietary stuff because there's also the able to do that compliance yeah You can't do that compliance. Sorry. I was going to say, there's also the issue of proprietary apps that don't want to be redistributed. That's also an issue as well.

Right. Right. And the thing is, when it comes to proprietary applications, you're supposed to acknowledge the license before you actually run... In a lot of cases, you're supposed to acknowledge the license before you actually run you in a lot of cases you're supposed to acknowledge the license before you install it for a lot of them that like a lot like for example discord discord does not present you with a eula when you start up the application it only presents you with a eula when you install it

on windows right right i was gonna say but on linux on linux they don't do anything and so on Windows. Right, right, right. But on Linux, on Linux, they don't do anything. And so you're just kind of silently accepting terms that you have no idea about. Which is questionable in its own right. Don't they present it to you when you make an account, though?

Nope. That's not the important part. The important part is that when the application launches for the first time, it needs to present it to you. Because you have their software on your computer. Right, right.

And also think about things like Zoom, Skype, Steam. Steam actually does the right thing here. I think when you set it up for the first time, it prompts you with a EULA and a service agreement. So it actually does the right time, it prompts you with a EULA and a service agreement. So it actually does the right thing, but a lot of the others don't. And it's because they assume that when you're going through their normal download mechanisms, you have clicked

through the agreement to get to the point where you get the package. That doesn't happen in Flathub. And that doesn't happen on Snapcraft. Well, to be fair, it doesn't happen with the regular Packet Managers either. No, but actually it can. So if you use a SUSE distribution, and you install their non-free repo, and you try to install non-free software that has a EULA, it prompts you to accept the EULA before it

will install. Hmm. So... That has been a feature in PackageKit for years and it is actually supported. No. No. We don't have the extension wired up to do anything. But also, we don't ship software that makes it necessary. That's a fair point. Right? The reason it exists

for OpenSUSE is because SUSE has... Well, Arch is a special. Well, and Ubuntu doesn't do it either. Like, you can pick on any other distribution. Do they? Ubuntu does.

They do it. They make a devconf prompt and make you accept a EULA. Huh. I need to go run Ubuntu in a VM. No, it's been a while since I've used Ubuntu in a VM. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. You haven't done this in a long time. No, it's been a while since I've used Ubuntu in a VM.

Yeah. Yeah. Whenever you install proprietary software through a dev, if they've done it right, they actually do prompt you for the license agreement. Hmm. So, and the same goes for in SUSE with their

RPM world. Like, if you install, for example, the example I like giving is if you install either the NVIDIA driver or Adobe flash, now you're not going to install Adobe flash anymore. Cause why? But like, if you go back enough old releases of open SUSE and you go install Adobe flash,

it actually prompts you with the Adobe flash license agreement. And if you don't accept it, you don't get to install it. Huh? So that's been a feature in suzo's rpm package management stack forever uh it doesn't exist in the red hat world because we actually don't ship software that needs that right because we don't ship software that needs that we don't need it we don't't have the feature. And in Debian world, because DevConf allows you to do uninterruptible, non-skippable interactive prompts, they just use

that for EULAs. So like in a world where we have automation, obviously you don't like having those things, but in a world where you have to deal with licenses that you need to know the terms of before you actually use it it's important vmware workstation what they do is that they make accepting the eula required to start the program for the first time but not that many applications do that right you spend a lot of time thinking about stuff that most people don't even acknowledge is a problem i think about the things that nobody else wants to it is like this is actually like this is the biggest reason why i just i i feel very uncomfortable endorsing a lot of these things because these things are not thought of and people are not interested in solving them.

And if you're not interested in solving these problems, it's going to bite us later. And then we're going to be in a bigger mess because, you know, sure. A bad dependency means that you have a CDE or whatever. But, like, not being compliant with a legal agreement can be a lawsuit. Yeah, that's brought us down a bit. Yeah. On a happier note. Yeah, on a happier note.

Nouveau! Nouveau and Nova oh yes yes yes yes I am really happy what's happening with the NVIDIA ecosystem I genuinely would not have thought a couple of years ago that

we would be in the state we're in now where we are just about to see like like it's, you know, depending on how you want to fight. NVK is in a good state. Nova is a stub, and that'll be a thing in a couple of years, probably.

Proprietary NVIDIA is getting explicit sync done after seven years, which is wild. We are literally months away from NVIDIA actually being good on Weyland, which is wild we are literally months away from Nvidia actually being good on Wayland and that's crazy

like absolutely crazy we're not months away we're weeks away what you mean with Mesa 24.1 comes out at the end of this month. Uh-huh. That makes NVK no longer experimental,

and it's a fully conformant Vulkan 1.3 implementation. Mm-hmm. Okay, NVK is weeks away, but I think we're still waiting a little bit on the proprietary stuff, though. The 555 driver you mean I think that's the version

series that will include explicit sync I think it went out at beta already I think they actually already implemented it I want to say that they did but to start seeing it on like regular like regular distros it's probably going to be

I think it's fair to say like Ubuntu you're not gonna see it until 24.10 Fedora I don't know what Fedora does actually well you don't ship it as in like RPM Fusion yeah yeah so apparently 555 is targeted for May 15th so my answer is still correct

we're weeks away so the beta release for the 555 driver is May 15th and it will include support for wayland explicit sync here here's the i'll just drop it in this weird discord chat thing that we have i i stand by my statement we're we're weeks away dude we're not months away we're weeks away and then i guess you know people can focus on the other problems that are exist in the wheel and the ecosystem and don't have gpus anymore which i'm really sick of hearing about gpu problems with nvidia yeah well i mean the thing

is right like i first knew i became aware of this stuff gosh i want to say like three four years ago and i didn't believe people i didn't believe the person who told me that this was happening back then this was before anyone said anything for real on the internet and it's like and then two years ago it was like oh yeah this is this is now a thing it's like you've got to be kidding me i didn't it's like yep this has been in the works for almost a decade i'm like my god it's nice. It really is. Because, you know, I talk about Wayland a lot. And people always will say, I have an Nvidia card. I can't use Wayland.

There are different people. My understanding is, because of it being a sync issue, it's very much a race condition. So some people have no issues. Other people, it's useless. Yeah, because two members of my team in Fedora KDE, other people it's useless. But... Yeah, because two members of my team in Fedora KDE they use NVIDIA. And they're fine.

Like, I actually solicited their opinion before we went with the Wayland-only path for Fedora KDE for Fedora 40. Because NVIDIA was important. When is... Of course, the other... Sorry, I was going to say, when is Fedora...

When is 40? Yeah, when is 40 scheduled for? Well, technically, it's supposed to release next Tuesday. Okay, so it's going to be a bit before 5.55 then. Yeah, so if this Thursday is going... So, because I have no idea when this is actually going to go out. We are recording on April 9th, 2024. It is my birthday for you.

It's the day after my birthday. Okay, we are recording on April 10th, 2024. From Brody's side. The side that is wrong and upside down. That's true. With 30- minute time zones. Yeah. And DLS savings.

Anyway, point is so it is April 9th slash April 10th and the go no go decision for Fedora 40 is going to be on April 11th. If it is a go on april 11th we will release on april 16th okay if it is a no-go then we have to do this debate again next thursday on the 18th and then if it's a go then we release on 23rd. If we don't pass then on the 18th,

then we gotta do this again on the 25th, and then we release on the 30th. And if we fail that, you can see where this is going. Right. Yeah, okay. Let's hope that it goes well. I really don't want a Fedora 39 again.

Fedora 39 was delayed almost a month. From the KDE side, I don't know how much you know about the workstation stuff that's going on, but from the KDE side, is everything looking good? We have one slightly unexplainable but difficult to deal with crash

that's being investigated by Upstream KDE, but it is not likely to be considered a blocker um because it is difficult to hit right but it is easy enough to hit that it's worrisome it's just it just doesn't happen immediately for people so we'll see how that goes we might actually get a fix within a week and then it'll be fine. Who cares? But it's also just not a huge deal. Workstation side, right now we have, oh gosh, I think we have an issue where the camera app, the new camera app snapshot doesn't actually work at all. At least on my computer that runs, on my laptop that runs Workstation, it shows no camera found even though i have a camera

built into the screen and i know it works um there's a couple of other issues at least it doesn't it doesn't crash anymore or do anything weird uh that's fixed but um but the camera doesn't work sometimes which is not great either um so and i think that's it from a blocker perspective. To give you an idea here, this is where you can see all of the blocker bugs that are being handled and dealt with. Is it relatively normal to see a Fedora release get delayed? Well, it didn't. For a long time, it wasn't normal.

And then last year, it started happening again. I see. Fedora 39 was such a... So Fedora 39 was a very messy release because the Red Hat layoffs hit us hard. Right, right, yeah. We lost our program manager, Ben Cotton,

and we also lost our community lead, Marie Norton. Well, she had just switched off of being a community lead, but we also lost her, and she was very important for a lot of the community engagement stuff. And because of that, things just slowed to a crawl. Fedora 39

was easily the most painful release I've been involved in in a long, long time. I hope that this... Fedora 40 has been smooth sailing compared to that, and that is saying something. Because Fedora 40 has been the toughest release I've worked on in a while. This release was special because in Fedora KDE and Fedora Cloud, I did a lot of work. For Fedora Cloud, I worked with the cloud team to re-engineer how we make

cloud images. So they're now using a new image building tool called Kiwi from the OpenSUSE guys. building tool called Kiwi from the OpenSUSE guys. And we use that to build all of our cloud images and our base containers. And for Fedora KDE, of course, you know, we went KD Plasma 6. We're doing the Wayland only thing on the media and that sort of thing. And both of them are done. Everything is good now. But my God, it was so much work.

That was way more work than I actually expected i was going to do this cycle um and on top of that we get our standard of oh we get a new gcc and all the things broke again and and like yes i realize that it's actually important that we do this because fedora is the first distribution where gcc gets aggressively tested against the corpus that is fedora rawhide is used to determine whether there's things that need to be fixed in gcc before its final stabilization phase so uh i realize that that's a thing but we also had all the flags tightened so for hardening the packages this cycle, a lot so now we have C type safety, so we check for pointer conversions and all this other fun stuff

if you're a developer type, you know what the horribleness is that is C we dealt with all that stuff that was this cycle, on top of everything else and so normally spring releases I try hard not to do a lot, because spring releases are difficult because we get a new GCC every time.

Right. So I try to do the bigger changes personally for me from a scheduling point of view. I try to do them in the fall releases because we don't have a compiler coming down the pipeline at the same time. And we had GCC and Clang changing at the same time, this cycle, because we had GCC 14 and clang 18, LLVM 18. And so everything changed.

It was a very tough release. That sounds fun. Yeah. But from a, from like an organizational perspective i think we did okay this time okay um we've done very well like the mass rebuild took longer than expected because it kind of got messed up a couple times we had to start over our free periods were very short our non-freeze period so we had a long we freezes like normal but the window between beta freeze and final freeze

was one week and so there wasn't a whole lot of churn um as a consequence i think we're actually in a relatively like i'm not super happy about having a tiny window in which to get things fixed that came up during beta but we seem to have had uh at least from a fedora kd east side we've done really well for ourselves in terms of making sure everything's gravy we did plasma six very early we started shipping alpha snapshots and then betas and and release candidates and and all that stuff very early on and as a consequence i think we this is probably the most rock-solid Fedora KD release we've done ever, really. In all the years that I've been using Fedora KD, I think this is the... It has been so good.

I have been running pre-release on every single one of my computers for about a month now. Wow. It was literally three days after the Plasma 6 GA landed in Fedora 40, like again, at the end of February, beginning of March, I was like, I can't take it anymore. And I upgraded everything. And so all of my machines have been pre-production, have been running Fedora beta since I think March 6th.

So that is a solid, what, month of doing that? Yeah. And it's been fine. Wow. That's good to hear. Even the machine that I'd be like, you know, I really shouldn't upgrade this. But, like, I don't like Plasma 5 anymore. So I want Plasma 6, so I upgraded.

But, you know, we also shook out a lot of bugs related to distribution upgrades. We made sure all the upgrade paths are in place. We did a good job making sure that those are done. And almost every member of the team has actually done at least one graphical upgrade and one command line upgrade, and we made sure all that stuff works. We are in a good

position when it comes to Fedora KDE this cycle. And it is honestly, I think, if I look at it holistically for the Fedora variants, I would say that Fedora KDE is probably the most put together variant this cycle. You're not a biased source of this data. Well, I mean, there have been times where we've not been so good.

Right. And, uh, like, Fedora 39 was a mess. And I am not happy about that release at all. It was not... I think the only upside to that release is we got, like, literally the absolute latest Plasma 527 point release landed in for 39 stable.

But the reason that happened was because it dragged on for so long that we could keep updating it. It's just like, come on! At some point, we've got to do this! Well, I guess there's the silver lining. And Workstation's done pretty well for themselves this cycle, too. So I upgraded my laptop that runs Fedora Workstation a couple of weeks ago. And it's been okay. GNOME releases don't really change all that much from release to release anymore.

Sometimes they have interesting things, but most of the time not much. I really can't, like, again, not as plugged into Gnome as I am in KDE. You can be the judge of how relative that being plugged into means, but

I think the big feature that I would say is really interesting for this godome release for fedora 40 is the headless login and the headless virtual desktop stuff like being able to have a headless godome session and be able to log into it remotely through rdp um yeah people are that is a big deal i I've been told so many times that this is a reason why they can't use, like, oh, I can't use Wayland, I can't use Wayland, like, I need my headless session. Like, I get it. Like, that's fair. I mean, I've just been waypiping all the things, so I don't really care.

Sure. I don't need the full desktop session remotely. I have a desktop session locally. I can just waypipe the application remotely. In fact, before I switched to making this laptop sit here on the desk, it was in the other room, and I was waypiping all the applications from there onto this computer. Hey, it works.

It works. Might as well. Hey, it also meant that the noise wasn't a problem. That is true. There's your solution. If I can't figure out a way to deal with this... Yeah, well, yeah. The only thing I can't really do is I can't use it that way for streaming because the camera has to be plugged into the computer that I'm using it with.

Yeah, use a droid cam. Do it over Wi-Fi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's let it know. So, one thing that I do want you to clarify for people who are just not at all aware, because it's been a mess,

is what is actually happening with Fedora 40 KD Wayland? Because there was the whole stuff at the beginning, then there were discussions. There's been Pharonix articles and there's been confusion about it. People have no idea what is actually happening. So when Fedora 40 KDE

ships, what are people getting? Alright. Alright, let's do this. Okay. So, the Fedora 40 change stands. From the Fedora KDE 6 perspective, who is the owner of the change and the maintainer of the KDE Plasma stack, KDE Plasma 6 is Wayland only.

That is the perspective of the KDE Plasma stack. That is what we've agreed with FESCO and Council. That that is the only part we are going to support. Now, that all being said, there was a kerfuffle. There was a... We don't have to get into that. We don't need to get you into trouble.

There was a kerfuffle. And the outcome of the kerfuffle is that a couple of individual packagers are now maintaining a Plasma X11 session, which is two packages, Quinn built for X11 and Plasma Workspace X11. So those two components are not maintained by the KD SIG. They are not supported by the KD SIG.

All bugs filed against the KD SIG for this stuff will either be redirected or closed. They are not allowed to be considered blocking. They are not allowed to intercept or cause trouble for the KD SIG for maintaining Plasma Desktop. But they are allowed to exist. And that is the current state of the world. So they are in the repositories.

They are not supported by the KDE SIG, and from KDE Upstream's perspective, Fedora is not really dealing with Plasma X11. We are still, from the engagement and relationship perspective, Plasma Wayland. Right. So, it is there, you can

install it, but as soon as you are using it, you fall out of the realm of community support for plasma from fedora from the fedora kd sig because it's not a mode we support and it's not a mode we've been testing my understanding is the x11 stuff upstream is very much considered like secondary as well at this point like there's they still are patching certain things but it's like it they're not getting rid of it because there's they don't need it's not blocking anything but my understanding is if it ever gets to a point where it is like actually blocking a release and

is actually becoming a serious problem to maintain it's on the cards to just get rid of it yeah that is that is more or less where where i think we sit upstream as well um the way i think it's going to shake out is we're gonna see the x11 code being increasingly carved out and and centralized into discrete places, and then punt it out. And then it will live and die on its own accord. I don't know what that's going to look like or when that's going to happen, but I feel that that's probably how it's going to go out. From the perspective of KDE as a community and the maintainers of the various components,

Quinn X11 has been deprecated since 2018. is that long geez okay it's been a long long time it has been feature frozen and it has been locked down since 2018. uh i don't know if you'll find a link an easy link to it yeah so QueenX11 January 16th 2018 here you go thank you

ah it's a Martin blog post that was all the way back in Plasma 5.12 i think that was oh you know i was making videos back then i just don't think it crossed my radar i don't think i cared about wayland back then to be fair i don't think a lot of people nobody did yeah no one cared about it wait wait sorry when did fedora start shipping Weyland? I think it would have been around that time. Fedora 34... Fedora Workstation shipped Weyland

starting in Fedora 23. Which is... I always forget it's that early. Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. I think it's Fedora 23. That sounds too early. Surely it's not that long ago

We have Wayland in here No we don't What is it Fedora 24 then Fedora 24 Fedora 24. What... Gnome 320. Nope. Fedora 25. This would go through every version until he finds it.

Yeah, I think this is the one, actually. Fedora 25 is the one with Gnome 322 and that was the one where we went Wayland by default because that was what Upstream Gnome did. What year is that? That is... That is 2016. Okay.

So... Okay, a bit earlier than I thought then. Okay. Yeah, so... Quinn went feature frozen in 2018. Yep. Yeah. I don't think most people realize that, actually.

There's a lot of people i still see who are like i use x11 like yeah you can like it's an option it's there but like so the login screen went wayland in fedora workstation in fedora 22 in 2015 it was the same release that Plasma 5 was introduced in Fedora. So the login screen went Wayland in 2015, and the whole desktop for GNOME went Wayland in 2016.

Mm-hmm. That was not a... I think it's fair to say back then Wayland wasn't ready. That's not fun to infer. I think I feel good about waiting until Fedora 34

with Plasma 5.20 to do it for Fedora KDE. Like, just basic things. You know, screencasting. That was a problem. Well, you also gotta remember that back in 2015, people didn't do screencasting that much.

I guess that's fair. So it didn't come up. Yeah. Like, OBS Studio was ported to Linux, what, two years prior to that? Okay, that's fair. It wasn't that long ago. That's fair. It used to be...

Because the open broadcaster software was originally Windows only. Yeah, yeah. It originally started, I think it's like a StarCraft application. It was a capture StarCraft, I remember the original story, but yeah, something like that. Right.

Yeah, and it just wasn't a thing people thought about back then. I guess that's fair. I guess people didn't screen share as much in Skype and stuff back then either. Well, that's fair. I guess you didn't screen share as much in like Skype and stuff back then either. Well, it didn't, it wasn't a thing you could do in most of them. Like, like I, like Zoom, Zoom did it in, I want to say 2017 was when they introduced the feature for screen sharing on Linux, because it didn't exist at all in the beginning.

And then they very quickly added the support for GNOME's private protocol to do it. Because in 2019... I'm very happy about things interacting with. Well, because in 2019 RHEL 8 came out, and it was Wayland by default.

And so they had to. Well, because in 2019, RHEL 8 came out and it was Wayland by default. Okay. And so they had to. And then it was during Fedora 34's development that I started poking the Zoom people to port over to the portals. And I bugged them for 18 months until they did it. I will always remember how much crap I had to give them to make them actually do it. And there are still people that think that it doesn't actually work.

Well, so the problem is you need to lie to Zoom and tell it you're running GNOME for it to work on any desktop. Because they never removed the stupid guard that says that it needs that it that for for it to being a gnome private protocol. It doesn't use the gnome private protocol but it still thinks you have to run gnome for it to work. Yeah I'm looking at the arch wiki right now yeah that you have to say you're. I'm the one that just I'm the one that discovered that in the first place! You have to set your XDG current desktop to GNOME. Yeah, I have a desktop file override on my computer to force that, because otherwise it just doesn't work. That's so dumb.

I know. Surely it can't be that hard for them to fix it they probably don't care well I no longer have a big stick to hit them with I don't work for a company that uses zoom everywhere so so like I used to work at a company that used zoom everywhere and paid a lot of money

for it so I could like I had a big stick I know other red hat people watch this one of you, please start emailing Zoom. They don't use Zoom at Red Hat. They don't use Zoom at Red Hat. Don't they?

They use Google Meet. Who can we use to bother them? What company uses Zoom? If you have a friend at Oracle that you would like to get in touch with to get this yeah if any of the red hat people happen to know someone at oracle reach out to them look man that is a stretch in itself maybe Maybe. I don't know. I'll have to try. I mean, I got...

I did get... I got Red Hat people in touch with Zoom people, Jonas Adal and a few others, to actually work with Zoom to get it done. And it did get implemented. And so it is in place, and Zoom has it. The problem is that it still has the Gnome Guard.

The Gnome Guard doesn't make any sense at all, but it's still there. And so in order to use it, you have to lie to Zoom. And every once in a while, it comes up in the Fedora KDE mailing list. It's like, hey, I can't use KD Wayland because I use Zoom and Zoom doesn't work. And I'm like, look, here you go. Just edit your desktop file and tell Zoom you're running GNOME. If you tell Zoom you're running GNOME, everything works. If it doesn't work, still after that, go into the Zoom settings and tell it to use Pipewire.

Because there's a Pipewire toggle that it sometimes doesn't auto-detect and use. If you tell it you're using pipe wire, then everything will work. Thankfully, everything you just said is written on the Arch Wiki, so it's not like they have to dig too far to find it. Uh, but people still don't. Well, yeah, no, my point is that, like, the information is out there, so if you just don't want to explain it to them, just point them to section 2.51 of the Arch Wiki. That's stupid. That's so stupid.

It's incredibly dumb. It is horrible. So that's Zoom, right? Then we look at, like, Discord. So Discord... Um... Has... I have talked to people at Discord before about it. Other people have also talked to people at Discord about it. The problem for Discord is that they gutted

Electron's own pipeline for screen sharing and wrote their own. Yes, they did. Yep. To be fair, Chromium's screenshot... screenshotting and screencasting system is not performant enough for game streams right so it makes a ton of sense that they would

do that but it does mean that they have to spend a lot of extra work rewriting how that whole thing works to do this yeah it's gonna be a while yeah I've my understanding is there are people at discord that

want to better support Linux like there's I've heard there are people at discord that want to better support linux like there's i i've heard there are like talks with individual people there about supporting the flat pack officially and also doing portals the my understanding is that this don't really have that much in the way of linux developers oh you good? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, something died.

Sorry, somebody just pinged me. And I was just like, okay, well. But yeah, like... The other problem is that portals are sometimes not easy to integrate. Because depending on how your application is architected, this might actually be hard. This is one of the reasons why libportal now exists.

libportal is a very easy library to support adding portals to existing applications. And as part of the Plasma 6 bring-up, I went and ported the Qt 5 bindings for libPortal to Qt 6. So there are now Qt 6 bindings for it.

So anybody that's moving up from Qt 5 to 6, they can still use LibPortal. There are also other things, like if you're using Rust, you've got the AshPD crate that lets you do it too. There's a few others out there. do it too. There's a few others out there. It's a... Those things are going to make it easier for portals to be integrated and supported. But

it's still going to take a lot of time. bluntly, if you're outside of GNOME or KDE, the portal system sucks for you yeah um because because like the so some background here okay the the wl roots ecosystem of, as you know, is seeded by Sway. Now, Sway, Drew DeVolt is, I think, fairly well known for not liking Dbus and a lot of this other stuff. And so Sway doesn't use Dbus IPC. It uses its own custom IPC for, well, it uses the i3 IPC for being able to do a real-time configuration of the capacitor.

But it also doesn't actually support DBUS as part of its interaction model. And if you look at XTG, and that means that they don't have a portal backend. And that's why XDG Desktop Portal WLR exists, right? XDG Desktop Portal WLR is essentially a basic portal backend

that bridges the Dbus protocols with Wayland protocols that correspond to the features. The only stuff that's currently supported is screen copy, which is mapped to screenshot and screencast and not very well mapped to those, not the greatest experience in the world. My favorite part of the, uh, the WL roots experience is the, um, not being

able to capture individual windows. So this is why Neary re-implements Mutter's private protocols to be able to use the GNOME portal backend. I didn't know Neary did that. Neary does a lot of cool things then. Yeah, Neary is, I think, the first WLRoots compositor that re-implements the GNOME

private APIs. For anyone who's not sure, Neary is the scrollable compositor. Yeah, that's the PaperW whim re-implementation. So that thing, what's special about it, aside from being written in Rust, making it painful for me to look at,

but it is, it actually has re-implementations of Mutter's private DBUS protocols. Which means that Mutter and Neary cannot run at the same time on a system. Mm-hmm. But it means

that Neary can then use XDG Desktop Portal GNOME. Yeah, see, they have it written right here on their feature list. Huh. Yep. Oh, and you can block out sensitive windows from screencasts. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, because the

Gnome and KDE portal backends are really advanced. You can do a lot with them that you can't do with the other ones, whereas everyone else is stuck with the WLR one. Huh. That's cool.

I like what's happening. I generally like the KD portal. There's currently a... It's not a KD issue. There is a wire plumber issue that is causing issues in the KD portal where... Oh, I know. Yeah. There's a lot of... The wire plumber 0.5 has been a very interesting release it is people have had very interesting problems with it um like part of the reason i

was just like i was a little late to this was because i was trying to get the audio sources to not do the wrong thing was because i couldn't get Wire Plumber to stop selecting the wrong thing. I don't actually know why because it wasn't doing that before. Yeah, I've been opening up OPS and it's like, I'm just going to choose the camera as your default audio input.

Like, no, that's not what I've said. Stop it. Don't do that. Yeah. My issue is there is a... This is a fun one. So I capture my console through a capture card. And I use the...

My capture card has an output from it that I can just send back to my screen so I can monitor it as I'm using it. I use that to play the game instead of playing it on like the OBS capture. I know some people are happy to do that. I don't like the delay of the OBS capture. Now, when I do this, I have to change the input of my monitor from the display port to HDMI, which is what the capture card is feeding into for my monitor. When I do this, if I have a capture of my desktop in OBS, if I change my volume level, why a plumber seg faults? And then it seg faults, and then it seg

faults, and then it seg faults. I've reported this to the devs, and they know about the problem. I've sent them a log, and hopefully they get, hopefully they fix it in the next version that would be lovely i am really hoping i don't hit that problem when i start trying to stream do you want to know my workaround for it so i open up uh i open up plasma i disconnect my main monitor i then quit out of plasma and come back into it so obs doesn't even try to capture it it doesn't even acknowledge that it exists i think my solution is just not have two monitors that's a good solution yeah it also happens because i i only have one monitor actually active when the laptop is sitting here

like the the laptop's built-in display is switched off be also be cautious if you are capturing an individual window and you close the window the same problem will happen it seems to be an issue where it's trying to access a a null uh a null window accessing a resource that's already freed yeah use after free yeah hopefully it's not a that's fun yeah yeah that that's fun that's just broken reference counting that's fine see this is my this is my what i had to say about like pipewire and wire plumber it's been so good for a long time i think the devs finally realized that software is supposed to have bugs and they're like let's just inject some that would be awful it is good to use that would be awful it hopefully isn't that crazy to fix yeah i think that um like my experience so far has been that

actually you want to talk about a weird portal bug. Sure. Here's a weird portal bug. I mentioned earlier that Snapshot doesn't work on my laptop. The reason why Snapshot doesn't work is that there's a race condition between Snapshot, the application, launching a window, and it connecting to the portal backend. The portal backend just will always deny an application that has no window ability to access resources, including the camera. So if it tries to do them in parallel and one of them wins faster than the other, you get no camera. Right.

Yeah. This is where the Debo stuff starts falling down. We love race conditions. Race conditions are my favorite. Yeah. This is where the Debo stuff starts falling down. We love race conditions. Race conditions are my favorite. Yeah, well, async programming is awful. It is really hard to do. It really doesn't matter what programming language you're doing in this. Well, okay, I think Erlang, it's actually quite nice to do, but I don't like writing Erlang code,

and I only had to do it when I was dealing with RabbitMQ at a job a long time ago, and I don't really want Erlang code and I only had to do it when I was dealing with RabbitMQ at a job a long time ago and I don't really want to do that again but outside of Erlang concurrency is pretty hard to actually do well and so it doesn't surprise me

that people really struggle to do this effectively so I think what the solution is going to be is something stupid, like we're just going to add a sleep to make it take longer before we start sending the signals. So hopefully the window will be up before we send the signal

so it's always going to work. You know, it's a... Because the workaround is that you go into GNOME settings and you go into the camera portal settings and you go and activate it and enable it manually before you ever launch the application. But it has to fail once so it shows up in the list so you can turn it on.

Right. I don't sell a good UX. No. No, it's not. I mean, to be fair, if I want to talk about, on the KDE side, one of the things that irritates the crap out of me with portals is that when I'm using Chrome,

the screen share, it'll launch the portal window, my computer will stutter for a couple of seconds while it tries to grab all the handles for all the windows on my screen. Then it will load, I will select something, I will click it, and it will then stutter again while it reloads the dialogue

because I have to select it a second time. The portals are fantastic. I love them. But gosh, really these are the kinds of little things that are just like... Yes, I know it's actually not the desktop portal's fault

in this case it is something goofy with chromium i know it other people know this is something that's being worked on but it still sucks yeah yeah yeah what do you do what do you do i go and watch anime a new season of anime and stuff is out and like and i found out like a little while ago that detective conan's being dubbed in english again and i was just like oh heck yes and so uh i have been watching i have been catching up on detective conan now and i'm so happy that i don't have to stare at the bottom third of my screen while I have to read everything that everyone is saying. Because I'm a filthy dubber. Yeah, I don't...

Just learn Japanese. What is it? Yeah, you know, just learn enough where you can, like, piece it together. Don't even be good at it okay i see no i i i do know a little i know bits and pieces for watching anime for so long and you can a lot of anime that i watch is sub onlyonly, right? And so Crunchyroll just gives you only sub-only stuff. Honestly, I'm really happy they've started expanding into offering dubbed stuff because I vastly prefer things in English than having to read English and listen to Japanese.

I've just done it for some of it. I don't really mind it. This is not one of my headbands. So have I, I don't mind it that much but I still prefer English It's my language It's the same reason why, you know if you go talk to a German otaku they'll say they want it in German Yeah, I guess so, I guess that's fair

I mean, for a while I was watching Detective Conan and Bloody Catalan because they were the only ones getting dubs for so long. And it's just like, well, I know Spanish a little bit, and I know butchering bits and pieces of French. Is that enough to understand Catalan? Apparently the answer to that is yes.

It is enough to kind of understand Catalan. You know what you could do? You could just watch the sub and not have to deal with that problem. What do you think I do now? I just watch the sub most of the time for most things. But when something is actually available in English or Spanish,

I'm actually willing to watch it in those languages. Right, right. Because while I don't speak Spanish, mostly being out of practice, if I hear it, I actually understand it most of the time. Because Spanish is not hard for me to understand. It's a very regular, very nice, easy to learn language compared to French, which I don i don't like at all i don't like french french and i are not friends uh so besides obviously detective conan as people can probably assume from your profile picture everywhere that you exist um what is on the list of nilgom per anime that's a great question that uh every once in a while i have to really rethink because

i am add about my anime too uh but like i think right now um so i am re-watching uh yugioh a bunch because original series uh original series is. I already re-watched season zero, and I've been watching Yu-Gi-Oh! Dual Monsters, which is the seasons that most people know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yu-Gi-Oh! Dual Monsters is what it was called in Japan. Everyone else just calls it Yu-Gi-Oh! I distinguish because it's very complicated

when you bring up the fact that the original Yu-Gi-Oh! was also Yu-Gi-Oh! And that's... Yeah, anyway. So I was re-watching the original series was also Yu-Gi-Oh! And that's, yeah, anyway. So I was re-watching the original series, and then I actually, like, on a lark, decided, you know what, let's watch the current one,

which is Yu-Gi-Oh! 7s. It is stupid and campy and funny and has, like, no mysticism at all, but I'm here for it. It fun it's lightweight i don't i don't really care every so often i get like a a like a yugioh short i'm like what the hell is going on like oh it'll be like one of the one of the games people play i don't know what the popular

one is i don't really care but i was like what the hell are these mechanics i What are we doing? I have lost track of what the heck's going on. As far as... I made it all the way to Synchro Summoning. I think I'm good there. I made it to Synchro Summoning, but everything else that happened after that, like Xyz Summon, I still don't know how that

works. I don't know how... I know Pendulum stuff because that was with Synchro summoning and tuners and pen and and like it's just and then now there's rush tools Which is a whole different type of thing, which we don't have in the english-speaking world That's still Japan only but it's got different set of rules and it's got a different board. It's got different set of cards it's a whole different thing and I was just like You know what? I'm here to watch the show and i'm just don't even think about it yeah it's they break the rules in the anime anyway so just don't think about it

well i mean like look season one of yugioh was like card games meets dungeons and dragons card games meets Dungeons and Dragons. Like, that's literally how that worked. And it's just like, okay, we now have monsters that can chant spells in the background because we, the player, says they are, and they do stuff because we say they do. The knight can go strike at the field, and the field will do something,

because that's how that works. No, that's not how that works. At all. But sure, let's do that. Yep. No, that's not how that works at all. But sure, let's do that. Yep, yep, it's fine. Just have fun with it. Doesn't matter. Don't think about it.

Yep, it's, yep. So I've been rewatching the Yu-Gi-Oh stuff mostly because it's been such a long time and I realized that it actually holds up surprisingly well. The first series really does hold up fairly well. Yu-Gi-Oh! GX is also fun, and actually, 5Ds is, I don't know, a little weird. There was a...

My first Yu-Gi-Oh! series was 5ds so i this really so you started you started with you started with d wheels and like and and and dual you know race duels yeah and then i think like stuff aired weirdly in australia like it they just like swap back and forth every so often between uh 5ds gX and the original series. Oh, yeah. Some countries did that. It made things very confusing. Yeah, but...

Maybe I'll go back and watch it at some point. I don't know. It could be fun. Honestly, I probably should go back and watch more of that stuff, too. So the other thing that's on my thing is Yashahime, Princess Half-D half demon i found out that it got dubbed and it's actually available on crunchyroll in dubbed form and i'm like heck yes i'm here for this i loved inuyasha and it's on my to-do list to re-watch inuyasha at some point um there is no bloody way i'm re-watching

all of detective con again. It took me an entire summer vacation to watch, to catch up through 450 episodes back when it was only at like 600-ish. That's not happening ever again. I'm not doing that, but

what I will probably do at some point is find all the plot-relevant episodes for Detective Conan, because most of it's episodic and it doesn't matter right but like there's if you go to like some of the detective conan fan sites they have these indexes of plot relevant episodes and you'll find out that of 1100 episodes it's like less than 100 that are plot relevant and so it's actually really easy to catch up if you just skip everything else.

And then you really get to see how the quality has gotten up in anime, because that show's been going on for 25 years, and so you get to see all the art styles for the same cast. Yeah, I'm watching through One Piece right now, so I know exactly what you mean. Oh yeah, no, One Piece is another example

of that, although, like, man, I really should watch One Piece again. Like, so I got turned off by One Piece because the whole dub transition thing. Like, because it started out with four kids dubbing it, and that was a mess. Yeah. And then it transitioned to Funimation. And by that time, I was, like, juggling a bunch of different anime shows. And so it didn't kind of... I watched a few episodes of it.

It was good, but like it didn't hold my attention because I was watching full metal alchemist brotherhood because I hated the original full metal alchemist. That actually went out pretty well too. I think they did a good job with the tighter, with the tighter FMA brotherhood. But yeah, so like,

and also my hero academia, I've been watching that like a couple years ago I got recommended it and it's what? Season 7 is about to start oh jeez I think I need to catch up faster I'm only on season 4 right now

starts in 24 days I'm only I am only on season 4 right now. Starts in 24 days. I'm only... I am only at season 4 right now. I gotta catch up faster. Don't worry, we're like very... I reckon we're like a season or two from the entire series being over. So...

Oh, okay. So that'll... Oh, wow. We're actually gonna end after eight seasons? I... That'll be nice. Because the manga's getting very close to ending as well. So, yeah. Yeah, Detective Conan being close to ending as well. So, yeah.

Yeah, Detective Conan being close to ending is a shock, actually. Wow. Wow. Yeah, so, like, uh, um, it was announced a couple years ago that they had, that

the concept of how the show would how the series would end has already been figured out and so we're we're heading towards an end game eventually well i remember when this happened with naruto right like naruto was dragging on forever and it's just like yeah we're we're working towards the end and then suddenly it was like holy crap what the heck's going on we're suddenly like plot relevant like every episode now what the heck and now most of the time i don't read mom i was gonna say now uh now boruto has its has its shippuden out now oh my gosh so they're literally turning time skip into a meme for them it is Boruto Blue Vortex Boruto is Boruto is he's literally just

Sasuke at this point I mean that was the whole reason I was turned off by Bolt in the first place like yes I know Boruto but it's Bolt Bolt the dog that's what we're going to call him yeah so Bolt it became very obvious to me No, Boruto. Bolt. No, Bolt the dog. That's what we're going to call him. Yeah. So Bolt.

It became very obvious to me that Bolt is Sasuke 2.0. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was annoying. I mean, from my perspective, I don't find Sasuke as a particularly compelling character. He is not interesting to me. I think he's dumb. And, like like his characterization sucks

and seeing that made into a protagonist just made it worse he is not like he's not Ashura none of the transmigration stuff is a thing anymore like or if it is I'm going to be mad because it really

that was a aside from the fact that it is a whole thing talking about transmigration in Ninja World. Like, whatever. I don't want that concept back again. It's probably going to show up because the bloody Rinnegan is going to show up again somehow. And whenever it does, we're all in for a world of stupid. Because the Rinnegan, while it's a super

fun dojutsu or eye technique, you know, bloodline thing, it is basically OP and broken and it basically results in god mode for whoever has it. And while that is fun to think about it makes for the stories kind of sucking a bit this is why i just turned my brain off and i'm

like oh funny lights yes i actually most of the time turn my brain off when i'm watching this stuff but like if you ask me to like think about it and give recommendations this all comes out and it's just like you know what what? So My Hero Academia, Yashikime is on my list. I actually recently watched The Devil is a Part-Timer Season 2 because it got dubbed. Okay.

It was released actually a couple of years ago but apparently nobody noticed including me. Yeah, it wasn't as popular as the first season. Yeah, for sure. But it was good. I really enjoyed it. but apparently nobody noticed including me and then I found out and I watched it and it's yeah for sure but it was good I really enjoyed it I don't think I

actually sat down and watched season 2 yeah so it's a thing it is a thing yes I don't know how I didn't watch it

I yeah and I need to rewatch season one because when I watched season two I was in Spain for Academy and that was a couple years ago and apparently in Spain season one is not available but season two is so but here

and then it fell off yeah I don't know how I don't know how licensing rights works it's so weird and then when I came back to the States, I forgot that I wanted to watch season one again. I have access to it. Then there was that old man from another world. I forget what it is,

but that show was interesting because it was like tons of references of the Sega Genesis being like the best console. The Sega Saturn being the best console ever. Okay, I didn't watch this one. This is another one that I skipped. Yeah. Also,

there's also Estetica of a Rogue Hero, which I'm pretty sure someone screwed up when they titled this because Aesthetica is not a word and that makes no sense but Aesthetics of a Rogue Hero is actually a cool show that I liked

oh jeez that's okay you just watch whatever 25 years old came out last month let's watch that like oh jesus oh jesus this is very much a 2012 anime oh my god oh my god what is this well so like i so you're also talking to the guy that went and actually spent the effort to go find all the classic Doctor Who and watch it in order. Wow, that takes commitment.

Yep, I've got an art, like my media drive is precious because it's got things that you can't find anymore. One of which is an almost complete archive, as complete as I could get it, including that one episode that has been lost in the UK that was only recovered by some dude in Australia who recorded it on VHS. I have all of that. And I've watched all of the classic Doctor Who. Wow. It doesn't hold up.

What if I said I've never actually seen an episode of Doctor Who? I think you need to turn in your nerd card. Yeah, maybe you're right. I would say you need to turn in your nerd card, especially since you live in a Commonwealth country. That would be absolutely insane

if you had never, ever seen an episode of Doctor Who. How in the world have you never seen an episode of Doctor Who? You've got to be kidding! I've probably seen bits and pieces, but I've never actually watched a full episode. Oh my

God. This has to be fixed. You live in a Commonwealth country. I do. Doctor Who's available to you from your local tv people it is part of the thing you have access to go bloody watch it maybe i will maybe maybe i'll find some time to do that if you don't want to watch Classic Who, which I don't blame you, you can at least watch the stuff from the 2005 series onward. Or if you have access to Disney, guess what?

It is now on Disney Worldwide for season 13, I think. Yeah, 13 onward. We're back to seasons, boys. Oh, God. Because we can't agree on how the heck we're supposed to name these. I just consistently use series to refer to the show and seasons to refer to the parts of the show.

In England, they flip this, which is weird, and then in everywhere else, it's a mixed bag. Lovely. Yeah, I know. Well, so this is why like the 2005 show they call it series one and it's just like

this makes no sense why is this series and not season well it turns out between 1980 and 2005 the UK has mostly switched from using season to refer to seasons to using the word series to refer to seasons thank you UK I appreciate it season to refer to seasons to using the word series to refer to seasons.

Thank you, UK. I appreciate it. Right? Meanwhile, I don't think anyone else in the English-speaking world does this. Look, English might be your language, but you're using it wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

You were asking me about a show that I watched subtitled or at least implying that you were that i did magic kaido magic kaido is only available subtitled but it's actually a ton of fun and it's very short it's not a particularly long series i think it's like 12 episodes and it's a quick watch and it's made by the same guy who made detective conan and it's more on the magical crazy side of things it's a lot of fun right yeah for some reason i can't find oh it's because the funimation crunchyroll merger they still haven't imported all of my stuff yeah I've got some friends who are dealing with, like, subs that are not being merged over

and it's just a whole mess. Yeah, well, like, I used to, I paid for both Crunchyroll and Funimation. And now I don't pay for Funimation anymore because it's all just Crunchyroll, so I upped up my Crunchyroll sub. But, like, my data's not

over there yet, so some of the stuff is just not showing up great um but also like because some of this stuff is just scattered everywhere uh i have to do it in a bunch of different places um but like where is the where is that show? It's bothering me that I can't find... What is it? What's the Isekai ones? Another World. One of these Another World things. Maybe it's gone now. But there was a... There was a show.

Isek a show. Isekai Show. Sega Saturn. Meme. One of these. Oh, Isekai Oji-san. Ah, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

That one was just funny as heck. That one's great. Oh, it's on Netflix. That's why I can't find it. It's on the other one. We love Netflix anime. one's great oh it's on netflix that's why i can't find it it's on the other one we love it anime it's great yay but like that one that one is a lot of fun and i think that one is also dual language subbed and dubbed um and that one's been a lot of fun i i'm i am i am seeing why the isekai genre has become a thing. Because it's basically how people get to play with self-insert, you know, like self-insert

fanfiction in official productions, and it's a lot. It's very funny. Now we just need crossovers to happen more. That'd be fun. Like, honestly, one of the most fun things I ever

watched from an anime movie perspective was the Detective Conan loop in the third crossovers. Those are a thing. I know that um, Netflix, everyone's seen Netflix anime, uh, Netflix is doing a

Baki vs. Kengen Ashita. So, I don't know what the hell they're doing. They've basically just made Death Battle. Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I figured that much out. Digimon Adventure 2020.

Oh, there's a new Digimon Adventure. What? Oh. This has just turned into us talking about anime well I mean this is tech over tea but it turns out we also do anime here too yeah sometimes I mean to be fair I have watched one of your podcast episodes where literally

you did spend half the time talking about anime and other things it does happen the tech is just a suggestion I should put tech asterisk and then footnote it. Yes. You should... Well, yeah. I don't know.

Is there a T... A word that starts with T that just means random stuff? Because then that would work better. Because I'm pretty sure you did the tech over T for alliteration. Yeah. Yeah. I'll open a thesaurus later and see if i can find synonym for stuff because i feel like i should okay well textile doesn't really help that's not that's not no no not really yeah i'm sure someone will give me a word. Oh my gosh, some of these are just

not appropriate at all. Things over tea is just dumb. So, that's not gonna happen. No. Wow. This is really not... They're not good words. No.

You know, I think it's fine. I think we'll keep the name for now. It's fine. It's going to get changed at some point. You're going to come up with a new alliteration that makes it... Well, maybe you'll do something with S's instead of T's. I don't want to give the first thing that came to my mind.

Yeah, don't do that one. I know thing that came to my mind. Yeah. Don't do that one. I know what came to your mind. No. Um, anyway, uh, we probably should be ending this off at some point. Cause we passed the two hour mark now.

I mean, we don't, I mean, whatever you want to do. Like I, I, like I made time for you. Yeah.

That's fair. Like, um, like we, we made sure this time that we're both okay i got some i got some stuff later in the day though so maybe we should end it off you have stuff to do during the day yeah i do that's when i do my like video recording and stuff so i've got videos to record after this

i'm assuming you don't. You just do everything at night? Uh, well... I either do it in the early morning or the late evening. Oh, okay. Actually, you know, we never actually talked about fedora changes. This whole thing. We never actually talked about how changes work. No, we didn't at all.

We can talk about that. That's fine by me. Sure. Yeah, no. What do you want to know? Okay, so... When a change proposal happens, for people that don't understand, what is a change proposal?

I mean, it's kind of self-descriptive. It's a proposal for change. Right, right. But people don't really have an understanding like what that means internally in the project like how this is handled like what like what sort of process is done with it so it basically starts from someone has an idea and they want to do something that is that is marketable and project or project-wide one of the two a lot of times you see changes as stuff that's like,

well, why do I care? Well, someone is proud about it and it's something self-contained. And so that's a lot of self-contained changes are things that they want to advertise at a project level that they're doing that they think is cool. But system-wide changes are changes

that are essentially descriptions of things that were changing across the whole distribution. And that's where things that tend to be affecting release blocking status have multiple stakeholders, that sort of thing. Change proposals are fundamentally someone has sat down long enough to think about the consequences of what they want to do, and they wrote it out. sat down long enough to think about the consequences of what they want to do, and they wrote it out. Now, the reason we go through this process is actually twofold. The first reason is to make sure that all the things have been thought of from the community perspective, so that it can be deliberated by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee, FESCO. The second reason is less obvious. This is how RHEL can silently accept or reject any change that has been made into Fedora for RHEL. So pulling back the curtain thing,

every single change that gets submitted into Fedora and then gets on Fesco's desk is then mirrored into Red Hat internally to also make a separate decision by the REL Council. So the REL Council functions the same way that Fesco does. And they make the same kinds of decisions for REL. So they do technical decisions, they do marketing decisions, they do focus decisions, they do structural decisions, that sort of thing. So the REL Council and FESCO, the REL Council being Red Hat internal only, FESCO being the public one that represents Fedora,

those two sides make judgments independently of the same change. So for example, the change to add frame pointers in Fedora 38. The Fedora Engineering, the Fedora engineering steering committee, after lots of debate, hot and craziness and me burning capital all over the place, you know,

to make it happen. The red hat side, the rail council declined to accept the change at that time that means that as things currently stand right now unless they decide to change their minds sometime between now and I don't know whenever they decide their cutoff is for when they want to make big changes like this which for all I know is like the end of this year

or something like that. Cause rel 10 is going to release in May, 2025. Like that's, that's a given rel nine released in May, 2022, three years from May, 2022 is May, 2025. If you can't math, I can't help you. So sometime between now and then if Red Hat decides that they want to accept the change, sometime between now and then. If Red Hat decides that they want to accept the change, they can incorporate it as part of that,

and then they do the same process that we do, which is when that change is accepted, people are able to implement it, and it gets recorded in as part of release notes and documentation. So a change proposal includes the description of change, the statement of change, the rationale of the change, and the mechanics of the change and the documentation of the change. Each of these things are filled in over time or adjusted or refined and eventually exported to make it for the rest of the stuff, the rest of the process, which is marketing. the rest of the process, which is marketing for when they do it on social media or in magazine posts. They do it for documentation by throwing it into things like the release notes and the manuals and things like that. Fedora doesn't produce manuals anymore. We used to. We don't anymore. But that used to be part of the process where we would we would make those and pull those things into manuals. But round does like so they take those that same information, and they use it to feed into their their their books that they have on

docs.redhat.com about Red Hat Enterprise Linux documentation. And then the last part is, it's a record of what what has been done to evolve the project and to evolve the distribution and this is actually the most important factor because other distributions use fedora's change records as a way to do their own changes um it is very common to see another distribution say oh yeah we want to do this here's what fedora did and here's how they did it let's more or less take that and implement it ourselves. I firmly

believe this is a big part of why Fedora has such a strong leadership aspect to it, because we're one of the few distributions that writes everything down. So as an example of this, there's something like, recently Arch is changing their VM max map count, and I believe in their thing

they referenced Fedora. They referenced the Fedora change, yeah. I mean, the frame pointer stuff, so Arch has turned on frame pointers, that also references the Fedora change. Ubuntu, they turned on frame pointers, and they didn't reference us, which I'm a little salty about, because

we did. They're also doing VM max map count. I don't know if they mentioned it in their thing, but that is also happening. They didn't. It's hit or miss whether they wind up mentioning Fedora for things that we've done first. I really don't know why that's the case, because it's not unusual for if

Ubuntu does something first that we mention it. And it would be nice if it happened consistently. It probably comes up in internal discussions, whether they mention it publicly or not. Yeah, I mean, it's almost certainly happening in internal discussions, but it should happen. Public acknowledgement is generally appreciated. Lots of distributions do this.

So you look at OpenSUSE. For example, when we moved to Z-standard compression for RPM in 2019, 2020, OpenSUSE, when they made the change, they referenced the Fedora change and the rationale for doing it. for RPM in 2019, 2020. OpenSUSE, when they made the change, they referenced the Fedora change and rationale for doing it. Arch Linux, when they moved to Z standard, referenced the Fedora change.

Even though theirs went out to users faster, our change came first. So this happens a lot. And I think it's actually very valuable because it lets people understand why things are happening and they can choose to disagree if they want. I mean, Red Hat does it with RHEL and SUSE does it with OpenSUSE sometimes. But if they don't disagree with it, then at least they know, you know, at least everyone

knows what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. So that's really the biggest function of what a change actually a change documents for when it is a proposal it is an intention and it's a description of what the what you intend to do when it is done it is a description of what you have done right and why i think it makes sense so then if you look at that from that lens and you look at every change proposal that's ever been made in Fedora, a lot of things start lining up.

Like, how is Fedora a leader? How is all these other distributions able to quickly implement some of the same things that Fedora does? It's because we write it all down. But if you look at things that originate from other distributions so for example um open susa started doing the thing where they moved their they moved distribution provided configuration files to a directory and user they never actually outlined it anywhere they never documented what they're doing and why their rationales are not clearly written out in one place so it is actually difficult for other distributions to copy what they did. Right. So everyone else does it differently now.

And so there's this incoherence that happens as a result of it. So OpenSUSE does things in user-etc, which again, I personally think that's not a good directory path to put things in. But that's what they went with. Fedora puts them in either user-share

or user- lib or somewhere else that makes sense relative to the individual package um and then you have um you have a solace and serpent that does it in user share defaults okay and because they have this whole stateless linux thing and they have it's not fully written out anywhere but they have have this whole thing of they put everything in user shared defaults and those are all there. And then they have their software patch to look at that location first and then find all the other ones. That's their whole concept of stateless Linux, which is where all this actually started from. But because this was never coherently described in a way that everyone could understand the starting point, the rationale, and the end state,

everybody's doing it differently because no one knows what the right way is supposed to be, and why. I see. So by having everything written down, it makes it clear what is happening for Dora, and it makes it clear that... It also makes it easy to coordinate between different distros.

Right. The biggest thing that the big that's really a side effect the really important reason for this is it means that you everyone understands what's going on yeah from from my perspective of like going back and doing these videos it is very very easy to find when anything happens in fedora like if i want to find out when fedora switched to pulse audio or switched to systemd and uh anything else like that i got i can just it's just there like i can just find it if i want to find something like um art just changes the way they handled packaging in the past before finding where that was is a nightmare like i've got to go right find reddit post that reference that news post that maybe

is still in this location, but it's just not easy. Right. And then you look at things like these change set pages, like the one for Fedora 40, right? This is literally a list of everything that has been incorporated into the Fedora 40 release. Ah, so it basically is like a release note. Yeah, so there are 29 system-wide changes and 26 self-contained changes. Which makes it

55. It's not the highest number ever, but it is pretty darn close. And every one of these changes is written out in such a way that you can understand what's going on and why. Okay. And this has been a thing from the very beginning of Fedora.

We used to call them features. We changed from features to changes, I think in Fedora Twin. Fedora features. Is there a change proposal about changing the change proposal? Well, maybe. First class cloud images. That was Fedora 19.

Let's see what is Fedora 20. Okay, so Fedora 20 changed to change sets. So the feature process was replaced with the planning process in 20. So Fedora 20 was when we switched to that with the change mechanism. And then before that, we were features. So, like, as an example of a feature list, yeah, this one. Fedora 19's a fun, is a fun one, because that one was

uh, you know, that one was the one that I think introduced the Anaconda new UI, which we are, well, back then the new UI. It's not known anymore. Oh, no, that was 19 was the follow-up.

18 was the one that was actually the new UI. Okay, okay. Yeah, 18 was that. So, but you can see, like, we've been doing this for a very long time. Like, if you go all the way back to Fedora 7... Mm-hmm. Oof. Sorry.

So, if you go all the way back to Fedora 7, we don't have a fancy table. We have this weird list of in-out partial. Yeah, they've gotten much better at presenting it. That is for sure. Yeah yeah so in fedora 7 fedora katie was the first spin period oh oh okay yep a lot of people don't know this but we were actually the early adopters and the drivers for a lot of under the hood enhancements and advancements within fedora's release processes i like the summary we need a kdu

release for fedora 7 that's all yeah well back then like detail you could tell we've gotten better at this oh yeah no this is it's better than most distros even in this state but yeah nowadays that's that's real sad details create a live cd that is installable yeah okay yeah so this was oh i remember when this stuff happened it was such a long time ago oh no them no. Theming, include GTKQT engine. Yep. There's a lot of opinions on that one. Yep.

But yeah, so like, the Core Extras merge, which was what brought KDE into the main Fedora distribution back in Fedora 7, happened in that release. So did the feature of LiveCD. So did the ability to make a custom derivative. All of that stuff happened in that release so did the feature of live cd so did the ability to make a custom

derivative all of that stuff happened in the same release and fedora kd was the flagship for that they were the first i think we even i want to uh yeah because fedora prime was also kd based and then fedora kd happened and so there you go like it was our it was the first spin oh nouveau came out that release too that's how old it is like nouveau was the same release that fedora kd spin became a thing oh my god yeah this is a this is a crazy release yeah like fedora like back then this was still considered detailed

look at this feature rander x rander became a thing in fedora 7 wait rander as well yeah that was there. Oh my God. Again,

these were not detailed. Look at that. Rander 1.2. Server supports Rander. Add Rander support. Requires changes. Test plan. Nothing. Dependencies. Nothing. Details. Nothing. Even if you don't know you want

it you want it god people take for granted that rander exists but right it didn't exist in the beginning like when i first used linux we did not have the ability to change the monitor configuration while the system was running. You had to log out and log back in again, or you had to reboot. Yep. Most of the time, you had to reboot. Like, but, you know, you look at a Fedora 7 feature

versus a Fedora 40 feature, a Fedora 40 change, right? You take a DNF5, for example, you look at a Fedora 7 feature versus a Fedora 40 feature. Mm-hmm. A Fedora 40 change, right? You take a DNF5, for example. I don't know. Oh, that's Fedora 41. Oh, 41. So, okay. KDE change, I don't know.

Yeah, the KDE change, right? Like, the KDE... Like... I mean, the KDE change in Fedora 7 and the KDE change in Fedora 40... Are completely different. Mm-hmm. They're, like, you can see how much more filled out it is. The quality and the details of documentation are an order of magnitude higher.

But at the same time, it means everyone else can now do this. Other people are going to follow in our footsteps. I believe Chaos has already done it and we'll see if others do yeah the difference is

yeah that difference man it's a big difference it's a very big difference well there you yeah there you go that's that's that's changes in a nutshell it's effectively a way to coordinate document and validate that you've done what you're supposed to do and other people can do what repeat what you've done um and i think it's a crucial part of what makes Fedora a leader in the ecosystem. Other distributions just don't do this. Like, they really don't.

Arch just kind of started doing an RFC process. And maybe we'll see this in more distributions, but it's really not a common thing. And even RFCs, like, they aren't necessarily detailed like these are. And the reason why Fedora changes are so detailed is because we know implicitly that each Fedora change gets judged by our downstream Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The people at Red Hat look at those changes. There's a JIRA ticket that's made for it that they have internally. Their engineering management validates it. They check whether it applies to them. They check whether they want to care about it. For example, when Butterfest went by

default in Fedora, I promise you that on the Red Hat side, the ticket was created, and they said, well, we don't care. So, closed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I. Yeah. I wasn't aware of how... I knew they were obviously great for, like,

keeping things documented, right? I wasn't aware of the, like, importance that was placed upon them, though. Mm-hmm. And this is all, like, this being able to do it, you know, a Fedora change is then replicated into a into a rel um change evaluation in the beginning i believe this was actually done by cloning the red hat bugzilla bug that's associated with the fedora change i see now since they use jira they have

to do it slightly differently but it's a thing well um hopefully that was informative i guess yeah probably should be ending off i probably do need to run in a little bit um anyway uh let the people know uh where they can find you you're gonna be i don't know by the time when this comes out but you're gonna be like in many places over the year i know you have two places this month i don't know if there's anything you want to mention that has been made public already that's not like right like instantly this week so i will be at texas linux fest later this week which i suspect you're not going to publish this in time no probably not um not. I will be at LinuxFest Northwest at the end of this month.

It might be in time for that. I don't know if I believe that it will be. My backlog's pretty big, but I might rearrange stuff. I don't know. We'll see. And then I will be at Red Hat Summit the following week. And then I will be at LSF. This is a long LSF and BPF. What is this called? Linux Storage

File System Memory Management and BPF Summit, which is an invite-only event, but I will be there too. And that's right after Red Hat Summit. And then following that, I'm making plans for the back half of the year. And I think one of them is going to be DevConf CZ in the Czech Republic in June. And the OpenSUSE conference as well at the end of June. And beyond that, I haven't figured out what it's going to look like. So I'm going to be at those conferences for the next few months. Of course, I have my website

royalgeekworld.com or you can go to neil.gampa.dev. It'll just take you there. I am on the socials of the Fediverse. I am also in the threads. I am on the socials of the Fediverse. I am also in the threads. I am...

I guess that technically means I'm in the Instagram too, but I don't really look at that. When I went to nil.com.dev, it said your connection is not private. Oh, God. So the setup with that is dumb. I have to manually renew the Let's Encrypt certificate, which is annoying.

So I need to do that. But royalgeekworld.com should work. That one's actually, like, maintained by GitHub. So it's okay. So, um... After that, and then, of course, um... What else? I would say the

other avenue really is um bug Brody until I show up again yeah yeah that usually works pretty well apparently I live rent free in your head according to many many people

it's look when I dig through issue trackers, you just show up, so it's pretty hard to get you out of it. Yeah, well, like, the number of times people send me clips of you apparently complaining about me existing is...

That's why I put it in the April Fool's video because I thought it was funny. That actually did make me laugh. I was very amused it was like there are no linux these are not linux users no no no neil is a linux user that that i cracked up that was phenomenal the only thing that kind of broke me a little was that uh you did the fbi thing i was like wait but but you're in a commonwealth country and you don't have an fbi so this doesn't make sense.

I realize not many people actually understand that you live in Oz. There are people who think I live in America, yeah. I mean, you should, but you don't. Actually, fun thing. I was just randomly talking on Twitter and Christian Scheller, who does follow me, I don't know when he started following me,

for some reason, he actually referenced me being paid by Wayland. I was like, that's amusing. You're being paid by Big Wayland. I would love to know who the Big W is. I would love to know where the Big W gets its money from. Oh my god, I should... You didn't do that I was so mad No there was a

There was a retail store in Australia Called Big W I didn't even think of that You're You're so bad at this I am Anyway anything else you want to mention Also

Let's see Yeah so I'm primarily Available on the Fediverse Anyway, anything else you want to mention? Let's see. Yeah, so I'm primarily available on the Fediverse, on Fossadon, as well as on Threads. Those are the main places I think people can reach out to me. And then, of course, I have my business, where if you want to have some consulting with me to talk about architecture, open source things, or whatever, my business, Velocity Limitless, is a thing. VelocityLimitless.com. Check it out. And then

I think, oh yes, and if you like the stuff that I do and the open source work I do, you can also sponsor me on GitHub. So github.com slash sponsor slash Conan dash kudo. github.com slash sponsor slash Conan dash kudo. And there you can throw me a few bucks a month to help support the fact that I do open source work for nothing.

And like every little bit helps. All the people that do actually do it I very much appreciate it. And anyone else who likes the work that i'm doing and the stuff that i do in fedora and open suza and kde and and free desktop and and all those other places feel you know that and and as fedora sahi remix and things like that i forgot about asahi this whole time we were talking you remember when you asked me all the things i actually forgot

i think you mentioned it i I feel like you did. I mentioned... Oh, I might have. But, like, yeah. So, like, I kind of rolled that up into the Fedora stuff. But, like, yeah, I do all these things. And if you value or benefit or like the stuff that I work on or work with other people on, that is a great way to help me be able to spend more time on it.

Because I have to juggle all these other things that I have to deal with because I need money to live. Yeah, that's important. I like living. I like living. Yeah, I do as well.

Is that all you want to mention? Is that everything? I'm sure you can keep mentioning things all day Yeah we could probably keep going But I think that's actually it Okay Awesome As for my stuff, my main channel is Brody Robertson

I do Linux videos That's a great shirt I love it Main channel is Brody Robertson There's only a few of these. Latency sucks. Go on. Yes.

Linux videos. Six days a week. I don't know what'll be out. Go check out my explicit sync video. I don't know. It came out today. It'll be like a couple weeks old when this comes out. I've got my gaming channel, Brood on Games.

You've been pumping- Hm? You've been pumping out a lot of videos lately, I'm a little surprised. I- there's no- no more than usual, it's the same number. You just might be getting notifications more. Are you sure? No, I think you're just getting notifications. Oh my god.

Yeah. The recommendation engine is starting to make you show up a lot more. That's good. Um... That's a good- that's a good thing's a good thing i suppose i guess i do upload more on the gaming channel i don't know if you see those ones i upload like clips or whatever um this is that's what i get pinged on discord about it every time i see i anytime your name is mentioned you probably get pinged maybe you're just being mentioned well that's why that's what

you know that's probably it that's probably it actually people poke me more anyway um i stream twice a week on the gaming channel i don't know what to be streaming there go check it out maybe i'm playing elden ring i don't know go over there uh if you're listening to the audio version of this you can find the video version on youtube at tech over t if you want to see the audio uh you can find the you find that on basically any podcast platform. There is an RSS feed. I found out there's a Fediverse podcast index, so check out that as well. Yeah.

Are you set up on that? I'm automatically on it. I didn't do anything. Well, okay. Yeah, well, there is the whole... There's the podcasting 2.0 stuff, and then there's the RSS activity pub replication stuff. There's a bunch of random stuff around this.

Yeah, you'll find me in places. Anyway, I'll give you the final word. What do you want to say? Fedora KD is the best. Go grab it with Fedora 40 do that see you guys later