TED Talks Daily - A songwriting battle with my AI clone | Jason "Poo Bear" Boyd, Elise Hu

Episode Date: February 7, 2026

As AI tools get better at making music, will there be a time when machines move people more than musicians? Putting that question to the test, legendary hitmaker Jason "Poo Bear" Boyd joins journalist Elise Hu to discuss how new tech is changing the music industry — followed by a live performance where he battles his digital twin to see who can write a catchier song. (Poo Bear is joined onstage by musician Sasha Sirota.)Learn more about our flagship conference happening this April at attend.ted.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. In this fast-changing age of AI technologies, where do we find and hold on to the human soul? For me and for many, music is a uniquely powerful window into that soul. It's ancient and new, global and intimate and exists in nearly every place on Earth. It feels inexplicably human. And yet AI tools are getting better and better at making music. Will there come a time when AI can move people in a more soulful way than human-made music can? And what would that mean? To find out, I sat down with songwriter and producer Jason Poobert Boyd,

whose melodies you've certainly heard from his collaborations with Justin Bieber, Usher, Ed Shearin, The Rolling Stones, and more. We explored what makes us human and how we can protect that even while embracing AI tools. And in true poo bear fashion, he doesn't just tell us his thoughts. He shows us in a live musical exercise that left us feeling like the human soul is safe after all. I can't wait for you to hear this. Enjoy. I'm the kind of brother who's been doing it my way, getting my way for years and my career. And never real love of y'all And now my life I hit love and left in tears

Without a care Until I met this girl Who turned the tables around Caught me by surprise I'd never thought I'd be the one breaking down I can figure it out I'm so caught up, got me feeling it, caught up, I don't know what it is, but it seems she's got me

twisted. I'm so caught up, really feeling they caught up, I'm losing control. This girl's got a hold on me. Thank you very much. Your birthday. That was incredible. No, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. What a treat. It was so. It's so great to be able to hear you in this theater. Like the acoustics, are you satisfied? They did an amazing job. The acoustics are killer. Okay.

We're so glad. Oh, that was just so moving. I wish we could get a whole show from you. Ah, man, maybe one day. Okay. Standing invitation. Yes. Before we get into the innovation part of this conversation,

I just want to ask you what to you makes a great song. To me, a great song is a frequency. It's a frequency that is simple but effective. So simple enough for a child to be able to remember and sing along with, but effective enough to fire off neurons in a brilliant mind. Okay, so do you just feel that? I feel it. Lots and lots of years of trial and error and just having this balance of simple and effectiveness.

How, especially you mentioned lots and lots of years, technology is constantly changing. It's been improving your entire career. our entire adult lives. How have you, if you could just take us through, increasingly integrated digital technology into your work and your creativity? God, so I've been, actually started off at my first success,

my first record in the 90s. So I was working on real-to-reel ADATs, and it evolved into Pro Tools, and that's from the digital era. And if you didn't really evolve into that, you kind of were left behind. And every year, they've just added on cool plug-ins and things to help save time

because time is the most valuable part of our lives. So, you know, I think Pro Tools to Autotune, all these things that were always, they always hate on it at first. And then you realize that it's only been created to help us. Do you consider yourself an early adopter? Like when your friends or other producers introduce you to a new thing. Are you like, great, I'm just going to go all in?

Are you more skeptical and you kind of watch first? I like both. Like, I watched a little bit, but once I used it and I understood that we're all being programmed by, you know, perfection. And that comes from, you know, the digital help. So I had to incorporate it, and it just helps save time. And it helps for people to enjoy the music as well. Is there any tool over the course of your career that you wished you were sort of faster to jump on? I would probably say AI, honestly.

Yeah, I would say AI. Okay. How are you feeling right now about AI's growth in the creative industries? I feel like once again, it's a tool that I feel like it's absolutely going to be necessary. It's in the beginning of it. And I feel like there's kinks that need to be worked out like everything in life. But I also understand the importance of it now. You know, at first I saw a lot of people using it around me and I was like, I didn't want to feel like lesser of my. I didn't want to think lesser of myself for using it.

Yeah. But, you know, even now I understand like, okay, I could probably use that. I could probably ask AI a question and it can give me a cool answer. Okay, because I know about zero about producing a song or producing music. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit just practically about how AI is being used or AI tools, I should say, just not like AI broadly, but AI tools are being used in your work, in your line of work. Okay, so in my world, um, there's some people who are being used.

that are kind of completely relying on it, which I'm not going to knock it. But for me, it's just, you know, throwing out concepts or ideas. Not so much. I haven't really integrated it musically as far as, because I still believe in the sole aspect of, you know, creating chords and having chords that we love.

But I also use it if, you know, if I have a question about something that I want to write about, I'll ask it, and it'll give me a quick answer. And, you know, things that I probably would have to research a lot harder if AI didn't exist. So essentially you can use it as a starting point, or you have a starting point. You're like, hey, this is a musical phrase, or here's a chord I really like. Tell me, yeah, kind of walk me through. Like, I haven't integrated the music part, but more so, you know, just different questions. I love making songs that are questions. So not so much the chords, or I still believe in being able to, I'm not the greatest musician,

but being able to find chords that I love with somebody that is amazing at playing chords and be able to say, oh, I love that, or do a different second chord. But more so, like, just concepts and new ideas, and it's just so much that hasn't been written about and running it through AI and making sure that I'm not creating something that already has been created already, which is important in the copyright world. Yeah, for sure. That's already hard to avoid without AI, right? Correct. Yeah.

Do you feel like, and I guess we're going to, I feel like I'm already teasing what's coming ahead, but do you feel as though there's still something ineffable about the human soul that gets worked into music that AI can't quite touch? Yeah, you know, the AI can't. I don't feel like it'll ever be able to quantify the human soul, you know, and I just feel like that's something, because AI is basically a math equation that kind of, you know, you have this formula and it equals certain things. I just feel like one day in the future, I won't say that it won't come close to the human soul, but I don't think it'll ever be able to emulate the human

soul and being able to, you know, affect people's emotions the way that the human soul does. You know, it's just being, just living, you know, for me to be able to create something and it comes from a real place. AI has never been had its heartbroken, you know? AI's never been in love. Sure. So it's like those things that, you know, of course there will be a math equation that equals to heart, equals up to heartbreak or love or something like that.

But I don't think like actually going through it, like the fact that as humans we go through these real emotions. Yeah. I just don't think it'll ever be able to completely quantify it. Does it matter that we can't, that soon? I mean, I know you can probably detect the difference, right, between artificial music and that which was created. Kind of sorter, yeah, because it's kind of just not great yet.

So when I hear something, I'm like, that sounds like AI because I wouldn't have said that. But to be fair, there's also really bad pop songs that are written by humans. It's a lot of bad pop music written by humans. Correct. Yeah. Yep. Does it matter, though?

Do you think to the audiences or to the industry, I guess, wait, I'm answering my own question because it would matter to the industry because if it gets cheaper to write music,

what happens to the artists? Yeah, the artist, you know, I feel like the artists are safe. I feel like more for creatives, just once they figure out all the new laws around the copyrights and stuff, you know,

songwriters, up-and-coming songwriters, I feel like there's certain people who make music and they have a sound. And a lot of people when they come to work with you, they're coming for that very specific sound, you know, that comes from years and years of programming frequencies into the universe, you know, by having a lot of radio success. So I do feel like for up-and-coming songwriters and producers that don't have that sound yet, I do feel like it's going to become more difficult for them to be able to, because they'll have, hey, they'll be battling AI, literally, you know.

Yeah, and you mentioned regulation. Regulation famously is so many years behind how technology is developing. Are there certain guardrails, or what would be certain guardrails that you would like to see to protect creatives and creative work? You know, that's a great question. Just being able to protect the creatives that have spent, you know, a lot of time, a lot of years investing in creating a sound, just for AI not to be able to be able to be able to. completely rip off our, rip off our everything and take it and be like,

oh, I'm gonna, you know, we'll just do our own Poo-Ber style song and pull from a thousand Poo-Berry different hits and create this new Poo-Ber sound. So yes, I feel like the laws, I feel like should encompass protecting the creative, so being able to detect and hear a song and say,

you know what? That song didn't really come from the source. that we think is coming from. So I'm not sure. I'm sure that somebody has to be thinking of this to be able to scan the music and be able to say, oh, that's artificial.

And at the same time, somehow be able to protect the creators that they're pulling from somehow. You also kind of nodded to this already. What happens to the pipeline? You know, you're talking about musicians being able to create a certain sound or who are really tied to whatever they,

what is distinct about them. I mean, I'm thinking of film directors who are, similar as well. Yes. When you see a Wes Anderson movie, you know it's a Wes Anderson movie. So what happens to the future directors, the future musicians, whose distinct eye or distinct sound hasn't been really out in the world or found an audience?

Yes, it hasn't programmed. I really, that's the part that's scary. Like I look at it like, it's exciting and scary at the same time. Because I love the time factor to be able to save time and be able to just, prompt AI and say make this movie or make this record. But I do feel like I'm afraid for the new, the directors, the, um, the, um, the creatives just because there's really no way to, to really stop it from happening. It's inevitable, you know? So it's like, how do we get out in front of it and, and we're able to still incorporate, like, include it, but still be able to have a sound

or build a future sound, like for those new artists and new directors. that haven't had any hits yet, still be able to use it as a tool, but still be able to build and develop a sound for themselves or visual for themselves. Can you give us a peek behind the curtain because you were friends with so many producers, so many people at the top of industry?

What kind of conversations around this are happening right now? Because, as you mentioned, the cows kind of already out of the barn. Sorry, I'm just always with my Texas references, but, you know. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, you know, all my friends, there, they're kind of like they're using it like no different than Pro Tools or Autotune. It's like just using it for very niche things, you know, or like, oh, make this sound more like or make me a trumpet sound combined with a violin to create this new instrument

that doesn't exist, like cool things, but not to where it becomes the whole entire piece of art, you know? Yeah. Is this any different than say like when digital synthesizers were first on the market? it and first came out, you know, they were also capable of making new sounds. AI is obviously, you know, exponentially more, stronger and faster and all of those things. But it sounds like the conversations around it are similar, right? It's very, when you go back to the 80s, when they started making the drum, the drum machines and the new keyboards, the moods, you know, yes, we got to a place to where it was so exciting.

just stopped hearing, like, authentic, real instrumentation for a while. Like, even the most amazing, like, you know, musicians, like Stevie Wonder, they got into, you know, using... The guitar. Is that what it's called, like, the keyboard guitar? It's a guitar. Yeah. Yeah, it was like, wait, you know, they kind of forgot about it. But then you realize that it always circles back around to the authenticity of, like, real instrumentation. But people just get excited. Like, it's very similar to AI. It was like, oh, wow, we don't. We don't. We don't. We don't. We don't don't really have to think or do anything. We don't have to work. But then it comes a place where you know, you miss it and you miss that analog sound. You miss the warmth and the human, the soul

factor. Do you think there's going to be kind of a backlash or a return to more analog sound or even that like tangible media storage of yesteryear? What do you predict? I predict the circle. It's an inevitable circle that happens to where this new technology comes out. Everybody goes crazy over it. And then you just naturally start to miss that sting that gave you butterflies, that real human being, that the soul factor. And I think it's just a matter of time. I do feel like AI is inevitable. But I also feel like we're going to see a lot of artists that are going to be relying on it,

that ultimately have to like go back to really performing and doing real live instrumentation. I think that's really important. This live instrumentation question, I'm so glad you brought up because it's so special to be here at TED, to get to hear you perform just now, to have these experiences that are in real life. Yes. Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they're very into in real life get-togethers and convenings, largely because they were starved of that as they were coming of age during the pandemic. But live music is so expensive.

Yes. I am finding that it is so much, it's like out of reach for so many people, especially young people, to go to concerts these days. Yes. How will we get together? How will we get to have these kinds of experiences where we are gathering and enjoying live music and enjoying sort of the beauty of the craft? That's a great question.

So I feel like people are going to understand that there's ways to integrate concerts that's not based on purely based on ticket sales or merch. I feel like there's going to be ways. There's going to be ways. And I'm actually working on it. We've been testing some concerts, like smaller concerts. But having brands come in and say, you know what, I'm going to pay the artist. I'm going to pay for everything.

and we're going to give a free concert and then see where that money that those bands might have spent on a ticket or really just on a ticket. Maybe they'll have a little bit more money to spend on a hoodie, you know? So I think there's going to be cool new ways to give those experiences for free,

but still people will be able to generate money, but just in another way. Yeah, I'd love to see that. Are there examples that you're seeing of a return to either analog, production, analog music, analog shows. I think the examples are just, you know, if you do look at the concerts,

the amount of money that, the revenue that's being made, it still continues to grow. You know, it's getting more and more. And I think that is because people do want to have that experience. You know, I think there's, you can go to a movie, you can go and you can watch anything at home. And I think because of COVID, I think everybody just got so sick of having to watch stuff on the TV or laptops

that once the world opened back up, like, all the music, like, all the shows went through the roof because everybody was just so excited to be amongst each other and feel everybody's energy and frequency in the room. I don't think we can really, you know, get that. You can have your VR set on and still, like, be lonely and be alone. You know, so I think that the concert, like the actual live performance aspect of music, I think it's going to get even like, it's going to get bigger and better. And I think that, you know, the revenue is going to continue to skyrocket.

And we just have to find a way to incentivize. Incentivize the concert so that they become free experiences where people still can make money and it makes sense for everybody. Okay. We've talked about live performances. Yes. And we're a little early. to this, but I want to get to it because I'm so excited about what we're about to try.

This is a next stage first, y'all. We're going to enjoy a songwriting battle, but it's not between me and you, thank God. Oh, man, I thought I was battling you. Yeah, no. Oh, okay, okay. It's not going to be between two musicians even. It is between Pooh Bear, legendary music producer, and a machine. Well, not really a machine.

I guess an AI tool. Yes. Called Suno. Yes, Suno. Yes. It's called Suno. And just to be clear, Suno is a versatile tool. Yes.

But as with all generative AI tools, this is my disclaimer to all, y'all. As with all generative AI tools, the legalities for usage are still catching up to the technology. So do your own homework on there. Poo-Ber, do you want to set up what you're about to do? I would love to set up. Okay, fantastic. I will leave the stage so that Poo-Ber can do this challenge. because you don't need me for this.

Oh, man. I thought you were staying. All right. Yes. Great questions. Crush that. So first I want to say happy birthday to everybody because I feel like everybody

should have a birthday every day. I don't feel like we should wait. You know, you're like, it's my birthday's in three weeks. Ooh, I can't wait. I feel like when you wake up, you should be like, ooh, it's an amazing day. I can't wait for the day. So happy birthday to everybody.

That's a whole world. TED Talk, happy birthday. Yeah, so this is, I'm excited to be here. This process, something, I don't even think I ever dreamed of doing this. So it was like, I could say it's beyond my wildest dreams. That's Sasha, also my partner, hitmaker, producer, done a lot of records, you know as well. So we're actually, I'm going to battle Suno, the digital version of myself. So I'm going to get some concepts from you guys.

You know, you guys are going to actually kind of help me write this song a little bit? You know what I'm saying? Maybe there's some publishing to give out somehow. I don't know, maybe like 1% or something like that. It could be life-changing. And from there, I'm going to create a hook and a post-hook. And then we're going to prompt Suno and say, once I get the concept, hey make a poo bear style hook post hook with a song with the three chord progressions and we're

gonna see once we listen which one moves you guys the most honestly you know and if if snow beats me it's totally fine i'm okay with it you know um so how are we looking sasha looking good looking good yes sir okay so yeah so first we're gonna find a nice three-core progression. There you go. I hear you and then I don't. May I hear you again? I love that.

Okay, now, concepts. Can I get, yes, innovative ideas. Broke, but not broken. That's deep. Yeah, wait, wait, can I get somebody from over? Can I get a concept from anybody over here? Say it again. Wise.

Voice, but voiceless. These are like, you guys graduated from Harvard in here? This is heavy. Can I get some little, wait, some less intelligent concepts for... All right, wait. Let's go to middle school. Starting over. Ninja turtles.

I'm going to go with starting over. I was that close from doing a ninja turtle. You almost have me. So, starting over. Let's record the loop. Here we go. Yeah. That's good.

So, starting over, I like to make, hello, hello, hello. There we go. Starting over. So I believe in making hooks that are questions, but like rhetorical questions that we kind of know the answer to. So you say starting over, and I'm going to say, should we be starting over, all right? Oh, we're able to get a baby loop with that. right there. There's a mic on.

Yeah. Okay. Am I double mic right now? It's just a... I'm like stacking myself without trying. Okay. So my first step would be to come up with a melody. No, no, no, no.

Are we starting over? Should we be starting over? Okay, okay, okay. And then I will stop and I would say... Let's do it one more time. I got it. So this is really how it happens in the recording studio, guys. This is like real life. I like that, but I wasn't really feeling this.

So no, I'm going to try one more time. Should we be starting over? Starting over. All right, so we got that. I like that first. I like that. Everybody's okay with that first line. Wait, wait.

Yeah, you know, you guys don't have to clap yet. Wait, because it's going to be way too much clapping. We got like, I don't want you guys to be clapped out. You know what I'm saying? Or you can play that back. I should. Should we be starting over? Okay.

Starting over. Then I'll go again. Now let's do it. So now let's punch right after that. Starting over. Let's check that out. You can start it right back there too just to hear like really close. Yeah.

This one I go. Should we be starting over? Okay. I'll push that last one. Should we be starting over? You would be starting over. So we got that. That's the first half of the hook and then what you say, should we be starting over.

Okay, let's listen back to that. Let's hear that back. I'm thinking of this. This is real time. This is tough, guys. And everybody's looking at me. I'm in turn his lover. Who should we be starting over?

I know Suno's in there, like the digital version of Puguer's in there, like warming up doing push-ups right now. Like, yeah, like, yeah, shadow bossa. Yeah. Now, we'll be starting on. Yeah, I accept that. Now, so now, that's the hook, right? So that's the first, that's the chorus. And now I'm going to do a post hook.

And this will be the part that will be the chant kind of like. So let's do. Let's see what happens. Who should we be starting over? Let's listen. Let's punch after that. This is after the second line. Yeah, after the second.

Let's hear that back. The post hook. Okay. That's my hook and my, that's it. But we're not even going to play that back yet, so now we prompt. Let's prompt it. Poobert, give me a hook. Should we be starting over?

Three cores. Hey, guys, I'm a little nervous a little bit. I'm sweating on it, sweating on the inside. I know you can't see my sweat. And this is, and I'm battling. Generating. Watch this. It's going to be way quicker than what I just did.

And this is the digital version of myself. Eight seconds. Two one. Okay See this is why AI you know you can't exactly exactly he's letting us down right now Should we be starting no chasing while we lost in the clover The cracks are wide but the heart still sober Oh we try oh we try okay we're just having some internet problem okay

when the echoes don't lie oh oh oh was the digital version of myself I'm not sure if it made a lot of sense, but it's okay. So now can we play back the Pooh-Ber human soul experience? Okay. Did we be starting over? Starting over. Should we be starting over? Should we be starting over?

Because I don't want to be starting- Oh. Okay, so I'll let you guys decide which one... The human pooh-bearer. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And that's my exercise. exercise. I hope this proves that we still, we're going to always need human soul,

but we will be able to use Suno. We will be able, we should be able to adapt. We have to adapt. So let's not count it out, but let's incorporate human soul forever. All right. Happy birthday. That was Jason Poo-Ber Boyd in conversation with me, Elise Hugh, at TED Next 2025. If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more at ted.com slash curation guidelines. And that's it for today. Ted Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This talk was fact-checked by the TED Research Team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tonicaa Sungmar Nivong. This episode was mixed by Christopher Faisie Bogan. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Balezzo. I'm Elise Hu, I'll be back

tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.