TED Talks Daily - From prison to purpose through wildland firefighting | Royal Ramey

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

When wildfires rage in California, incarcerated people are often on the front lines fighting the flames. TED Fellow Royal Ramey was one of them. He shares the story of how doing public service in prison inspired him to cofound the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program, a nonprofit helping formerly incarcerated people become wildland firefighters — and find purpose along the way.

TED Audio Collective You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hwu. Today's talk is from our brand new batch of 2024 TED Fellows films. TED's fellowship supports a network of global innovators, and we are so excited to share their work with you. Today we'd like you to meet wildland firefighter Royal Ramey. When wildfires rage in California incarcerated people are often on the front lines of fighting the fires. Royal Ramey was one of them. He shares the story of how doing public service in prison gave him meaning and

what he's doing now to help others who want to follow his path. After we hear from Royals, stick around for his conversation with Ted Fellows program director, Lily James Olds. It's all coming up after a break. Support for the show comes from Airbnb. If you know me, you know I love staying in Airbnbs when I travel.

They make my family feel most at home when we're away from home. As we settled down at our Airbnb during a recent vacation to Palm Springs, I pictured my own home sitting empty. Wouldn't it be smart and better put to use welcoming a family like mine by hosting it on Airbnb? It feels like the practical thing to do, and with the extra income I could save up for renovations to make the space even more inviting for ourselves and for future guests. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca.

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that you think that might not have the ability or the competency to go out here and fight wildland fires or even have the privilege to do it, can do it at a high level and can be able to be a contributor to society, just given a chance. You really don't have control when you in prison. They tell you, you know, what to do, when to eat, when to sleep, when you can come out to exercise,

to be on the phone with your family, you know, select your cell, you know, select your bed. You're getting told 24-7 what to do. You have no control of your destiny in there. It's really the meaning, and it shows, like, how much that you want to take that control back. Being a firefighter in prison definitely gave me

the opportunity to take that control back. And it showed me that I can be a hero, right? Cause everybody from the outside world kind of look at you as a zero. And it really showed that when I put my mind to something, I can actually do it. My name is Royo Ramey, and I am the co-founder and the CEO of the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program.

The Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program is the intersection between workforce development, criminal justice, and the climate crisis. We're about more than just training people who've been in prison to be firefighters. We about training them to be better people, to see the power they have to make real choices in their lives.

After World War II, California relied heavily on incarcerated people to fight wildland fires. Folks didn't want to do that work, and it was pretty hard. So they wanted to explore, you know, folks that was incarcerated for a lower wage. It saved the state, you know, millions of dollars each year. These facilities are called Californian Conservation Camps, AKA fire camps.

These longstanding facilities are where I found myself at the peak of my youth, and it literally changed my life. In 2012, I was serving time in prison, feeling mentally devastated. At the time, I remember looking at this Sports Illustrated cover of John Wall, realizing he was my same age with a bright future ahead of him. Why was he so different than me?

How did I get here? I was angry at life, and I felt a bit lost. During my sentence, I had the opportunity to go to fire camp. And I want to be honest with you, I didn't know what I was getting myself into. All I know was it was an opportunity for me to be more in a dormitory setting, better food, access to weights, and being closer to my family. When I actually got on the crew and they gave me this pack and gave me this tool, I'm like, what the heck am I doing?

Right? The smoke, the heat, you know, hiking up a steep hill with a 45 pound pack on your back, you know. It was just crazy to know that I was going towards a fire where everybody else was running away from it. It is dangerous. You never know if this might be your last time. But I grew to love it.

I grew to love the camaraderie. I grew to love the team cohesion. I grew to love the challenge. That was when the shift changed for me mentally. It gives you the mental capacity of just knowing that if challenges come your way, you can easily overcome them by making a choice. It just really gave me the power to evaluate myself and what I really wanted out of life

and how I wanted to feel like I was doing something that actually was meaningful. When we went to fires, you would see signs of saying, thank you, firefighters. And I always felt that they were talking to to me even though I was in orange, you know. Once I got released from prison, I always wanted to be a wildland firefighter. I always saw myself in that blue uniform, you know, always wanted to work for CAL FIRE. I was like, you know what, you know, I really want to make it happen. But it soon became clear. Prison and public service don't mix, right? What is the true roadmap, right? What is the true process of becoming a firefighter

with this record and how to navigate that? How to build up, you know, a nice resume that explains that she was in fire camp. How to explain your crime so folks don't judge you. Cause like most folks, like in the fire service, they're gonna know if you've been incarcerated just based off of that resume, based off the color of your skin.

I don't wanna be judged, right? I wanna be judged by the work that I put in and not by, you know, my past. So it took 11 months to figure it out, but, you know, it was worth the journey. And, you know, once we figured it out, my co-founder, Brendan Smith, and I, we established a four-year fire recovery program. I wanted to be the Harriet Tubman, you know, once we figured it out, my co-founder, Brendan Smith, and I, we established a four-year fire recovery program. I wanted to be the Harriet Tubman, you know, the Underground Railroad,

you know, to bring in people that was incarcerated in fire camps and give them an opportunity to be successful in their lives. And knowing that it's generational changing, right, like being able to have a family-winning career. Four folks was told that they couldn't do this based on their record or their past. That was my life's mission from then on. We helped train and place over 200 people in the fire service through our career training program, but we impacted over 3,000 people that has been formally

and has currently incarcerated in California conservation camps. Do you ever feel like John Wall when you're out there? Mm-hmm. Damn. That's deep. I definitely feel like John Wall when I'm out there, knowing that you have the ability to inspire people,

especially with my upbringing and the challenges I had in life. The power of opportunity is real. It's kind of like a phoenix coming out of the ashes. Like, we can make this happen. We can make this work. Just give us a shot, you know? All we need is that opportunity to be successful. People would want purpose, want encouragement, want to be influenced, want to serve.

If we just get that opportunity, you'll see wonders. People can, you'll see the power in choice. the power in choice. That was Royal Ramey, a 2024 Ted Fellow. Stick around after the break to hear Royal go deeper into his work and fellowship experience. And now a special conversation between Ted Fellow, Royal Ramey and Ted Fellow's program director, Lily James Olds. Hi, Royal. Welcome to the show.

Hey, how you doing? I'd like to start by understanding how this program works in practice. So what does the training include for the participants? So I'm going to take a step back, right? So the first thing we do is the recruitment process, making that connection and building the bridge when people are losing hope.

And then we have our intake process where we're asking the right questions, knowing that success in this job takes more than just altitude, it takes stability, safety. We have our career training program, where is the meat of our program. Half of it is in the classroom training,

the other half is in the field. While we are out there, we obviously focus on hard skills, you know, based training, but we're also mindful of the healing that happens when people, you know, find their purpose and when they are pushed to their limits and beyond and what they think that they can achieve and when they are like responsible for lives

that next to them. And then we tap into the job placement piece, right? As people are finishing the program, we work with them to find jobs and any number of other partner organizations and beyond. Some of our graduates want to continue with their education and we support them with that, connecting them with resources to make that possible. And then we go to the grand finale, which is graduation. We celebrate the hard work of our people with families and supporters, obviously.

For many of, it's the first time they graduated or even celebrated anything. So while it seems like a small gesture, right, is for us one of the biggest moments we look forward to. And then last but not least, we have retention services where we stay with these folks and continue to offer our support as they navigate their new careers or the space in between. That's amazing. So it sounds like those are really all the ways, I know you mentioned how to help people have family winning careers and it sounds like those are all some of the benefits that go so much deeper.

What, remind me, what is the length of the program again? So we have a eight week training and then we also have a 12 week training. The difference really is, is the time in where we have an opportunity to go out in the summer, to go and fight wildland fires with our staff to be able to gain that paid on a job experience. Wow. And I know that some people critique prison camps as exploitative since those who

are incarcerated are paid very little and it's dangerous work. I'm curious to hear your take on it. How do you see it and how do you ensure the safety, which you mentioned earlier, of these firefighters and those who are training? That's a great question. It's not really a matter of opinion, and it is what it is, and it always has been that, right? Like, prison labor was used as punishment in the 17th, 18th century, right?

The South relied on slave labor and when they lost access to it, they started reaching into prisons and replacing slaves with incarcerated people. And, you know, evidently, like, corporate America start using prison labor to cut costs. But when you have organizations like Cal Fire, see an opportunity to fill the workforce, you know, shortage by entrusting people like me with the training and the tools necessary to do the job, when they support our participants and welcome them into the industry,

giving them those family-winning careers, it's hard to demand that we end all programs like this in prisons. And I have to acknowledge that I wouldn't be where I am today without Fire Camp, despite its roots. I think the takeaway for me is giving people the opportunity for this kind of training and experience without prison being the equation, right? So why are we okay paying hundreds and thousands of dollars

in loss to the criminal justice system, years of incarceration, and the destruction of a family to offer training for a meaningful career when we could spend under $50,000 on the same person before they step foot into prison, right? And change their lives. And then to your point,

when it comes to safety for firefighters, it's a dangerous job, right? And nobody can really ensure safety otherwise, but what we can though do is provide the state of the art training on how to stay safe in this job, providing the best equipment obviously, and then ensuring that we certify folks in keeping themselves and their teammates safe.

What sets us apart as an organization is also recognizing that beyond the physical safety, we need to protect the mental and emotional wellbeing of our firefighters. This is hard physical taxing work that sometimes takes our folks hundreds of miles away from their families. So we're building into our program modules around protecting those parts of ourselves

and to avoid burnout, right? You know, to manage stress and to ask for help when it's needed. That's such a thoughtful response and thank you for laying that out so clearly. I think also as you were saying, the difference here is that you and your co-founder created this organization and from the conversations we've had, you have such a holistic approach to every aspect of the human of that training and that kind of support, which I think is part of what makes it really meaningful in the scale of such a massive systemic problem. I think just to go one step further with that, I would ask,

how do you think your model and what you both have created could be used in other industries to start to solve some of these bigger massive issues? Do you see that that template could be used in other businesses or industries? For sure. But the conditions need to be right, right? So first, we only successful because we have partners like Cal Fire, the Nature Conservancy, and many other partners who understand the value

of our graduates regardless of their past. So you need partners in public and private sectors who are willing to offer the same employment opportunities to our graduates as they would to a kid who dad was a firefighter, right? Second, the incentive to hire people must go beyond goodwill. And it's because of goodwill, it's impermanent

and puts our folks in a unsecure position, right? And for instance, think of all the companies who hire black folks and brown folks in this DEI coordinators around the murder of George Floyd. You know, many of people have since been let go because of the goodwill around BLM is gone. Employers must be incentivized to hire people because they believe it is a good investment and they were getting their return on it. And again, employers should be offering

family winning careers, building pathways for people to earn and I want to stress, earn upward mobility is key. Just to love to see people recognizing the untapped pull of talent inside of prisons and marginalized neighborhoods. And I'm proud to be a model of that and what that looks like.

And listen, like I know business is business, right? And people need to make money, but investing in your people almost always make you more money. You know, obviously we have a model that works, but we definitely need employers to provide opportunities and to be willing to hire people that might be a skills first hiring. And it's like, how can we provide training? How can we put folks in positions where it's not just

a job that they can get when they come home? But how can we make this a family-winning career? Thanks for that. Yeah, I was having the same thought that it's not just the right human thing to do, but honestly, it's probably better for the bottom line anyways because of what it takes to invest in people, right? To create those kinds of abilities for people to move up.

So thank you for that. So last question for you, Royal. If someone listening is interested in diving deeper on this topic and some of the things that you've touched on, what resources would you recommend to them in terms of a book, a podcast, or something else? The first thing that comes to mind is what if we get it right by Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, which is a great book.

We have FFRPA as a documentary that's in the Film Festival circuit right now with Blue Shock Media called on Firebreak, which is coming soon to a theater near you. Also, I think about Evicted by Matthew Desmond, which is a great book. Yeah, those are great, Brex, all of those. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time and for this conversation, Rol. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you for giving me the opportunity. Thank you. Support for this show comes from Airbnb.

If you know me, you know I love staying in Airbnbs when I travel. They make my family feel most at home when we're away from home. As we settled down at our Airbnb during a recent vacation to Palm Springs, I pictured my own home sitting empty. Wouldn't it be smart and better put to use welcoming a family like mine by hosting it on Airbnb? It feels like the practical thing to do, and with the extra income I could save up for renovations to make the space even more inviting for ourselves and for future guests.

Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. To learn more about the Ted Fellows program and watch all the Ted Fellows films, go to fellows.ted.com. And that's it for today. Ted Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced and edited by our team,

Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Autumn Thompson, and Alejandra Salazar. It was mixed by Christopher Faisy-Bogan. Additional support from Emma Topner and Daniela Ballerezo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet. Thanks for listening. tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet. Thanks for listening.

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