TED Talks Daily - How to lead with radical candor | Kim Scott

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

"How can you say what you mean without being mean?" asks CEO coach and author Kim Scott. Delving into the delicate balance between caring and challenging when leading in the workplace, she introduces "radical candor" as the way to give constructive criticism, compassionately.Want to help shape TED’s shows going forward? Fill out our survey!Become a TED Member today at ted.com/joinLearn more about TED Next at ted.com/futureyou Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hugh. There have been times in my life where I've been frustrated or angry and wanted to say something to a friend that I know will come off as maybe aggressive or even mean. In this Archive Talk, CEO, coach, and author Kim Scott poses the question, how do we say what we mean without being mean? She shares why she thinks we must all be radically candid,

as she calls it, and action steps that we can take to make it easier to say what we're feeling in the moment and build better relationships. easier to say what we're feeling in Canada, all new customers enjoy 20% off your first purchase. Just visit bombas.ca. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot C-A and use code MUSIC to start doing good and feeling even better. Support for this episode comes from Airbnb. Every time I travel to Vancouver for the TED conference I think of extending the trip by one more day to explore. Maybe visit Granville Island to check out their public market, browse the colorful food and produce, or try out

one of their world famous donuts or some fresh food. Maybe with my extra time I could check out the Grauze Grind hike on the Grauze Mountain nearby, which I've been told is Mother Nature's Stairmaster. This time around I might just do it. While I'm away I've been thinking of hosting on Airbnb so my home doesn't just sit empty. It would put my home to good use, and the extra income would be great to cover some of the costs of my trip. One more night in this incredible city, one more inspiring TED talk. It just feels like the smart thing to do. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. This episode is sponsored by Google Pixel. I am always looking for tools that help me

stay curious and efficient, and lately I've been exploring the Google Pixel 9, which was gifted to me by Google. What's impressed me most is how it's powered by Gemini. That's Google's personal AI assistant built right into my phone. Gemini helps me brainstorm ideas, summarize emails, even plan out my day. All just by holding the power button. For example, let me show you how easy it is. Gemini summarized my unread emails. Re! Away next week. Jonathan confirmed with Elise Hugh about rescheduling a meeting. Reminder,

development committee meeting tomorrow at 12 p.m. Central time. It's super helpful for staying on top of things without feeling overwhelmed. Or when I needed a quick dinner plan, I snapped a photo of what I had in my fridge and Gemini gave me recipe ideas. It's like having a research assistant right in my pocket. If you can think it, Gemini can help create it. Learn more about Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com. or dot google dot com. How can you all say what you mean without being mean?

I started thinking about this back in 1999. I had started a software company and I came into the office one day and about half the people in the company had sent me the same article about how everyone would rather have a boss who is really mean but competent, total jerk but competent than one who is really nice but incompetent. And I thought, gosh, are they sending me this because they think I'm a jerk or because they think I'm incompetent? And surely those are not my only two choices.

Now, I went to business school, and there I learned exactly nothing about management. But I did learn one really important thing. All of life's hardest problems can be solved with a good two by two framework. So that is how I started thinking about this problem. I was unwilling to let go of my desire to show that I cared personally.

That is what for me gave work meaning, but I also had to learn how to challenge directly. And I had to learn how to do both at the same time. And over time, I came to think about caring and challenging at the same time as radical candor. Now, the easiest way to understand what radical candor is, is to think about what happens when we mess up on one dimension or another,

as we are all bound to do from time to time. Sometimes we remember to challenge directly, but we forget to show that we care personally. And this I call obnoxious aggression. Anybody ever seen any obnoxious aggression? And this is a problem. Obnoxious aggression is a problem because it hurts people. Primarily it is a problem because it hurts people primarily It's a problem because it hurts people

But it's also a problem because it's inefficient if I act like a total jerk to you Then you're likely to go into fight or flight mode in your brain, and then you literally cannot hear what I'm saying So I'm just wasting my breath, and then there's a third more subtle problem with obnoxious aggression. I don't know about you, but for me, when I realize I've acted like a jerk, it is not my instinct to go the right way on care personally. Instead, it's my instinct to go the wrong way

on challenge directly. Oh, it's no big deal, it doesn't really matter. And then I wind up in the worst place of all, manipulative insincerity. If obnoxious aggression is front-stabbing, manipulative insincerity is back-stabbing. It's passive aggressive behavior. This is where all the most toxic kinds of workplace behavior, or frankly behavior at home in any relationship that you have in any part of your life creep in.

And it is fun to tell stories about obnoxious aggression and manipulative insincerity because this is where the drama is. However, the vast majority of us make the vast majority of our mistakes in this last quadrant where we do remember to show that we care personally because you know what, most people are actually pretty nice people. So we do remember to show that we care personally, but we're so worried about not hurting someone's feelings or not offending someone that we fail to tell them

something they'd be better off knowing in the long run. And this is what I call ruinous empathy. Empathy is a good thing, ruinous empathy. Empathy is a good thing, ruinous empathy is not. In order to explain to you what I mean by this, I want to tell you a story about possibly the most painful moment of my career. I had just hired this person, Alex. We'll call this person Alex.

And I liked Alex a lot. Alex was smart, charming, funny. Alex would do stuff like we're at a manager offsite playing one of those endless get to know you games. And Alex was the person who had the courage to raise their hand and to say, I can tell that everyone is really stressed out. I've got an idea, it'll help us get to know each other better

and it'll be really fast. Whatever Alex's idea was, if it was fast, we were down with it. Alex says, let's just go around the table and confess what candy our parents used when potty training us. Really weird, but really fast. Weirder yet, we all remembered Hershey Kisses right here.

And then for the next 10 months, every time there was a tense moment in a meeting, Alex would whip out just the right piece of candy for the right person at the right moment. So Alex brought a little levity to the office. Everybody loved working with Alex. One problem with Alex. Alex was doing terrible work. Absolutely. Sort of creative and unusual but tons of sloppy mistakes. I was so puzzled I couldn't understand what was going on because Alex had this incredible resume, this great history of accomplishments. I learned much later that Alex was smoking pot

in the bathroom three times a day, which maybe explained all that candy that he had. But I didn't know any of that at the time. All I knew is that Alex would hand stuff into me with shame in his eyes. He knew his work wasn't nearly good enough. And I would say something to him along the lines of, oh Alex, you're so smart, you're so awesome,

everybody loves working with you. This is a great start. Maybe you can make it just a little bit better. Which of course he never did. Okay, so let's pause for a moment. What was going on there? Part of it was truly ruinous empathy. I really did like Alex,

and I really did not want to hurt his feelings. But if I'm honest with myself, there was something more insidious going on as well, because Alex was popular, and Alex was sensitive, and it was part of me that was afraid that if I told Alex in no uncertain terms that his work wasn't nearly good enough, he would get upset, he might even start to cry.

And then everyone would think I was a big you-know-what. And so the part of me that was worried about my reputation as a leader, that was the manipulative and sincerity part. The part of me that was worried about Alex's feelings, that was the ruin of sympathy part. So this kind of toxic mixture goes on for about ten months and eventually the inevitable happens. And I realize that if I don't fire Alex, I'm gonna lose all my best performers. Because not only have I been unfair to Alex, not to tell him so that he could fix things,

I've been unfair to the whole team. Their deliverables were late because his deliverables were late. They couldn't spend as much time on their work as they needed to because they were constantly having to redo his work. And the people who were the best performers on my team, they were just gonna quit.

They wanted to be able to work in a place where they could do their best work. And so I sat down to have a conversation with Alex that I should have started frankly 10 months previously. And when I finished explaining to him where things stood, he kind of pushed his chair back from the table. He looked me right in the eye, and he said, why didn't you tell me?

And as that question was going around in my head with no good answer, he looked at me again, and he said, why didn't anyone tell me? I thought you all cared about me. And now I realized that by not telling Alex, thinking I was being so nice, sparing his feelings, he's now getting fired as a result of it, not so nice after all.

It was a terrible moment in my career, but it was too late to save Alex. Even Alex at this point agreed he should go because his reputation on the team was just shot. All I could do in that moment was make myself a very solemn promise that I would never make that mistake again and that I would do everything in my power to help other people avoid making that mistake and that is why I'm here talking to you all today. Now, I want to talk to you not only about how this works,

how ruinous empathy works in one-on-one relationships, it also works on team culture, or doesn't work. Often I'll work with a team, and they start out radically candid. Small group of people, they know each other really well, it's kind of easy for them to show they care and challenge. And then because of that, they find some success and they grow. And then they succumb to the gravitational pull of ruinous empathy.

And then things start going wrong, but nobody wants to be mean, nobody wants to talk to anybody else, everybody's getting really agitated. And then finally somebody bursts out and says the thing. Anybody ever see that happen? Maybe not in the best way, but it works. And because it works, they do it again, but maybe they do it a little more. And because everybody else is so determined to be nice, they say things like, oh, she didn't mean any harm,

or oh, he's a good guy. And then the next thing you know, this person is promoted now. Anybody ever see this happen? There comes a moment on every team's history when the jerks begin to win, and that is when the culture begins to lose, because what happens next?

Everybody moves down to manipulative insincerity, they're talking badly about this person behind this person's back, but they are not talking to the person. It does not have to be this way, folks. If you notice this happening, your team sort of drifting over to ruin his empathy, it's possible to move over to radical candor.

That's not gonna solve all problems. People will still make a mistake, but you can tell them about that mistake in a way that allows them to make candor. That's not gonna solve all problems. People will still make a mistake, but you can tell them about that mistake in a way that allows them to make things better. Now, it's not only the culture on teams where this happens. Sometimes it happens in a whole society. Sometimes it turns out that a whole society is polarized. Anybody ever know such a society?

We're polarized and we're not talking to each other, we're talking about each other and we're sticking with the people who agree with us. And I am no better than the rest of us on this. I recently was invited to give a talk at a company whose policies I disagreed with pretty vehemently. And I was tempted not to go. And then I thought that does not seem like it's in the spirit of radical candor.

In fact, I believe very deeply that unchallenged beliefs become prejudices. So I needed to go to this place and talk to these people. Not because I was going in prepared to change my mind, if I'm honest, I was not, but I also wasn't going in prepared to change my mind, if I'm honest, I was not, but I also wasn't going in trying to change their mind. I was going in thinking if I understand their point of view, it will help me deepen my thinking,

and maybe I can find some common ground with these people. You're gonna hear more about common ground. Maybe I can learn to like these people. And as I gave the talk, I got to the Q&A, and it was going really well. We were having a great conversation, and there was this voice inside my head, like screaming at me, saying,

Kim, these people are not your enemies. These are your fellow Americans. And it really made me take a deep breath. I was like, why would I not have come to speak with these people? After the conference was over, somebody came up to me and said, Kim, do you believe this? Do you believe that? I said, yes, I did. They kind of cocked their head and they said, huh, you don't seem like an evil person. And I would have thought that person was ridiculous, except that I had just had pretty much the same thought myself, five minutes previously.

So how does this work? Some of the best relationships of my career have happened with people who I disagree with. And because I care about these people, it's easier for me to challenge them. And because I challenge them, it's easier to care. It's a virtuous cycle, radical candor. And the reason why it works is that we,

both of us believe that the floor on the care, personality dimension of radical candor is respect. Respect is something we owe to everyone. And when we can show respect and common human decency, we actually wind up loving the people who we work with. Not in the HR disaster sense of the word that we read so much about today, but in the true sense of collegiality.

So to understand how to do this, I want to explain to you the radical candor order of operations, going back to this Alex story. I failed pretty much on all dimensions with Alex. I failed to solicit feedback. Medical candor, no matter who you are, should always start with soliciting feedback. Don't dish it out before you prove you can take it. But I didn't do that with Alex,

so let's give me a report card. I failed to solicit praise, and I failed to ask Alex what I could do or stop doing that might make it easier for him to work with me. Maybe, just maybe, I was doing something that was frustrating Alex so much, he was forced to toke up in the bathroom three times a day. I don't know, because I never asked him, right?

So solicit feedback. You also need to give praise. The kind of praise I gave to Alex was really just a head fake, and you need to tell people when their work isn't nearly good enough. But because I failed to do that, I couldn't possibly gauge how my feedback was landing. So I'm going to give myself an incomplete there. So what do I mean by gauge the feedback? This is where you can use this framework.

Remember, radical candor gets measured not in the speaker's mouth, but at the listener's ear. So, but how do you know what's going on inside someone else's ear? You can use this framework. If the other person seems sad, that is your cue to move up on the care personally dimension.

If the other person seems mad, that is also your cue to move up on the care personally dimension. But it's pretty hard to care personally about someone who's yelling at you. So what can you do? In these moments, you're probably mad back. When you're furious, get curious or get curious, not furious if you're batting above average.

Try to move up on, why is this person so mad? Just get curious or get curious not furious if you're batting above average. Try to move up on, why is this person so mad? Last but not least, there are times when you'll say the thing, you'll work up your courage to say the thing and then the person will just brush you off. This is your cue to move out further than you're comfortable going on the challenge directly dimension. So if you can all go forth and be radically candid, you will have better relationships, one-on-one relationships, you can help build a better

culture at work, and you can help build confluence in society. Thank you all so much. That was Kim Scott at TEDx Portland. This talk was originally published in May 2023. If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more at TED.com slash curation guidelines. And that's it for today's show. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, Alejandra Salazar, and Tonsika Sarmarnivon. It was mixed by Christopher Fazy-Bogan.

Additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balarezzo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening. This episode is sponsored by Google Pixel. I am always looking for tools that help me stay curious and efficient. And lately, I've been exploring the Google Pixel 9, which was gifted to me by Google. What's impressed me most is how

it's powered by Gemini. That's Google's personal AI assistant built right into my phone. Gemini helps me brainstorm ideas, summarize emails, even plan out my day, all just by holding the power button. For example, let me show you how easy it is. Gemini, summarize my unread emails. Rhee, away next week. Jonathan confirmed with Elise Hugh about rescheduling a meeting. Reminder, development committee meeting tomorrow at 12 p.m. Central Time. It's super helpful for staying on top of things without feeling overwhelmed.

Or when I needed a quick dinner plan, I snapped a photo of what I had in my fridge and Gemini gave me recipe ideas. It's like having a research assistant right in my pocket. If you can think it, Gemini can help create it. Learn more about Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com Did you know that socks are one of the most requested clothing items by organizations addressing homelessness? It's true. And it's also why we started Bombas. Every time you buy, well, anything from Bombas, an essential item is donated to someone facing homelessness.

That's Bombas's one purchased, one donated promise. Bombas makes socks, underwear, slippers, slides and t-shirts all designed to feel good and do good. Since we're new in Canada, all new customers enjoy 20% off your first purchase. Just visit bombas.ca. That's B-O-M-B-A-S.C-A. And use code MUSIC to start doing good and feeling even better.

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