TED Talks Daily - How to outsmart bias at work | Fixable

Episode Date: March 10, 2024

Have you ever felt like something about your identity was getting in the way of your success? On this episode of Fixable, another podcast from the TED Audio Collective, a listener needs help pushing through the resistance she's facing as a woman navigating a male-dominated workplace. Fixable hosts Anne Morriss and Frances Frei discuss what you can do when someone else's bias is standing in your way. Together, the three uncover how you can find your agency in unexpected places – and why you must use it unapologetically. For more of Anne and Frances solving YOUR anonymous workplace issues check out Fixable wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to be on Fixable, call the hotline at 234-Fixable (that's 234-349-2253) or email [e-mail] to leave Anne and Frances a voicemail with your workplace problem.Transcripts for Fixable are available at go.ted.com/fixablescripts.

TED Audio Collective. Hey, TED Talks daily listeners, I'm Elise Hu. Today, a special treat, an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective, handpicked for you by us. March is Women's History Month, and over the next few weeks, we wanna share with you some great episodes that highlight women's stories from across the collective.

This week, it's an episode of Fixable, our show about moving fast and fixing your trickiest business problems. Hosts Anne Morris and Frances Fry break down how to navigate bias as a woman in a male-dominated field and how getting creative can help you find some unexpected agency. You can check out Fixable wherever you get your podcasts. For more on the TED Audio Collective, visit audiocollective.ted.com. We'll get to the episode right after a quick break. Support for this show comes from Airbnb. If you know me, you know I love staying in Airbnbs when I travel. They make my family feel most at home when we're away from home. As we settled down at our Airbnb during a recent vacation to Palm Springs,

I pictured my own home sitting empty. Wouldn't it be smart and better put to use welcoming a family like mine by hosting it on Airbnb? It feels like the practical thing to do, and with the extra income, I could save up for renovations to make the space even more inviting for ourselves and for future guests. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. AI keeping you up at night? Wondering what it means for your business? Don't miss the latest season of Disruptors, the podcast that takes a closer look at the innovations reshaping our economy. Join RBC's John Stackhouse and Sonia Sinek

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Hello, Frances. Hey, beautiful. I want to start off today by talking a little bit about one of my favorite subjects, which I know does not narrow it down at all. I could be landing this plane in a number of locations. But I want to talk about the stories we tell ourselves. Oh, yeah. And how they impact our ability to show up.

Which remains incredible to me. Yeah, I think it is the most powerful work, capital W, we can do, particularly in moments where we're feeling disempowered. Listeners to this show will know that I spend a lot of time thinking about this and working with people on it, and in particular working with people on how we all can get tripped up or stuck in certain narratives that don't always serve us or our ambitions. Yeah, we can really get in our own way. And what's amazing to me is we simply change the way we think

and then all kinds of good things happen. Yeah, and I was reflecting on this because I just had a great time with an audience, spent an hour with them, achieved all of my hopes and dreams for their experience. They laughed. That means they were tears. They cried. They thought about the world differently. And there was a point in my career, it wasn't that long ago where I was given the feedback by my investors that I was not effective in the front of the room. And that story, like, really, it really hit.

It held you back for a while. And it wasn't that it was not true because I wasn't being particularly effective. But the way that it was framed, I am not effective. It was almost like it was a character trait. Yeah, it was framed as a character trait. And there was no possibility in that framing. And one of the tools that was really helpful to me was a really simple sequence of sentences that the great Byron Katie, so I adore this woman,

and I think she's a force for good in the world. She has a website called thework.com, where you can find a bunch of tools, including this one, but it's the four essential questions. And it starts with whatever the story is, I'm not good at this. This person doesn't respect me. Whatever it is, you start with the question. And the first thing that she pushes you to ask is, is it true? And of course, our answer is always, of course, it's fucking true. That's why I am suffering. And then the second question is, is it really true? But then the liberation happens with the follow-up questions, which are, how do you react when you believe this thought, limited, defensive, like incapable of solving the problem because everyone else is doing it to me and has the power. And then you get to the liberation moment is who would I be without this story? Oh, yeah. placing it with a story that's more productive, more empowering,

there's more freedom of movement that's potentially more accurate. Who do I get to be in that story? And it's really hard to do this on your own. Yeah, actually, let's go with impossible. Yeah, and to me, that's why this kind of work is so exciting. So, Frances, let's get into it. This is Fixable. I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach. And I'm Frances Fry. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I'm Anne's wife.

On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast. Anything is fixable and solutions are often just a single brave conversation away. Today, we have Elizabeth, not her real name, who is living in a very challenging narrative. Let's take a listen to her voicemail. Hi, my name is Francia. I'm calling because I am a female in a male-dominated industry, roofing and construction. I met with resistance from male desk adjusters or male field adjusters that think that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to insurance work scopes. And I'm also kind of met with resistance from trying to get new clients, them thinking that I wouldn't be a good fit because I'm a girl and I don't know what it takes to put on a roof. So any advice, any type of, you know, verbiage I should be using out there to help me get my

point across that just because I'm a woman that I actually do know what I'm talking about. Oh, this is going to be awesome because how do you overcome first impressions? And are they really first impressions? And are they really first impressions? Yeah, no, there's a very powerful and sticky story at the center of this that is not necessarily untrue. But where can she find some freedom of movement here, even in a world where, you know, the patriarchy is real? I want it to be not true in the rearview mirror. Yeah, yes.

I love that as a goal. Elizabeth, welcome to Fixable. Well, thank you. It's so great to talk to you guys. Before we jump into the part, we listened to your voicemail. We're actually quite eager to dive in, but we're going to try to have the discipline to step back and capture some of the context first.

So what is the work that you do? Previous in the past, I had worked specifically for larger roofing companies, kind of all around. I was what you call like a storm chaser. So there would be a big hail storm somewhere. A vivid image. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not chasing the tornadoes, just the hail. So there would be a big storm and I would go and I would help the guys set up an office and I would handle all of the day-to-day stuff, the paperwork, the insurance work scopes, and kind of help the

homeowners like understand their insurance policy and kind of help the homeowners like understand their insurance policy and kind of what was happening and all the steps that were going on. Over the pandemic, I started my own company because I noticed that there was a real need for people like me who understood the insurance process and could communicate what was needed to the insurance company as well as to the contractors. So how do you think about who pays you for your time and talent? Right. My clients are roofers, so I get paid directly from the roofing contractors. Got it. So you run interference between the roofers and the insurance companies on behalf of the roofers. And what's been the biggest surprise for you

in going out on your own? How do I put this? You know, I've always had success working with one insurance, you know, one roofer at a time. And so I thought it would be pretty easy because he gave me great like feedback and was like very supportive and everything like that. And I guess the biggest reality check I had was going on my own was like, not everybody's like that. Not everyone thinks that women can be in this industry and handle this job and like know what they're talking about or know how to put on a roof. And so that was kind of like the first big like, oh, hey, not everybody is great as my former, you know, employer. So in your voicemail, you said you were experiencing some friction with

both adjusters and clients. Which of the two is a bigger source of pain for you right now? Right now, I would say adjusters. I would say from the insurance side of things, it's definitely them. And I think, you know, I think there's even been national news stories about this right now about insurance companies, you know, pulling out of areas, not wanting to pay claims. And, you know, homeowners insurance policies are going through the roof. So they are looking for every little thing and trick in the book to not pay out claims like they're supposed to. And so that's kind of like my biggest hurdle I'm trying to overcome at the moment. And is that tension inherent to the job? Like, is that a structural tension where

you're always going to want them to pay more and they're always going to want to pay less? Is that a fair way to think about it? I would say yes. And I would say some insurance carriers more than others. But yes, that's just kind of the name of the game. And I'm okay with that to a certain degree. But I, you know, it's frustrating, I guess you could say, because when I know that I'm right, but I'm dismissed a lot because, you know, I've been called, you know, the secretary, the office girl, you know, all that. And I'm like, well, actually, I'm not. Yeah. So that's what I was going to get into. So what has led you to conclude that gender is an issue here? So specifically from an adjuster and insurance carrier side, I have examples from

both sides, but from the adjuster and insurance carrier side, this happened a couple of months ago. I called in about a claim and I was like, hey, you know, these things need to be covered because they're code, they're building code requirements. And I cited him the codes in my initial supplement that I sent in and invoice that I'd sent in to him. And he was like, well, you probably just made up those codes. And I was like, you can't really do that. You can't make up codes. You can't just, you know, throw some random letters and numbers in there. Like they're, you know, you can Google and see that I'm telling you the correct thing. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to try something. So I actually had my brother who is 12 years younger than me and he's in college. And, you know, I kind of have taught him the ropes along the way, just in case he decided this is an

industry he wants to get into. But I was like, why don't you call and speak to this guy and kind of see how he approaches you and just act like you're the sales guy on it like you're the contractor and he did and he would tell him hey this is hey man this is building code stuff you know we got to do this this and this and he was like okay yeah yeah i see what you're saying and approved it sent it off and everything was fine and i was just like wow just like that is just mind-blowing to me that that just happened uh super creative solution super creative experiment like you got like ann's question how did you know it was gender oh you know it was gender yeah yeah yeah yeah really beautifully designed experiment really beautifully designed we applaud you from the research side yeah Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I want to ask a couple of kind of intentionally provocative questions just to just want to get you into the posture of solving problems.

But I want to ask, Frances, if you have any other context questions. I do have a context question. So how often do you have the same adjuster? Actually, quite frequently and for certain insurance companies. So this kind of gets into the weeds a little bit, but there are certain insurance companies that have local adjusters. And so they circulate in the same areas all the time that I'm dealing with. There are bigger insurance companies that have what we call third party ladder assist. So it's just some company that they've hired some guy with a ladder to go out there and

look at a roof and send them pictures back to the office, to the desk adjuster and say, here are the pictures, make a decision. So no one really that works for the insurance company is actually going out to look at the roof. And so those guys are forever overturning. It's never the same one twice. So I would say it's about 60-40 right now when it comes to local adjusters versus, you know, some person that I'll never see again. And is there when you have the gender dynamics, you know, the the odd gender dynamic when your brother came in and it was OK, was that a was that a local adjuster or a third party?

It was. Well, it was a desk adjuster. So gone over. Sorry. How much repeat interactions do you have? How many repeat interactions do you have there? Is it never repeat? Yeah, never. Little to none. Little to none. Because it's always, they have such high turnover rates and, you know, it gets reassigned all

the time within their system. It's kind of like, you're always chasing the next adjuster. You know, it's always the next one, the next one. And then just to, I think, make explicit what you're saying, have you found that in relationships that are deeper than one touch, is gender less of an issue? I would say so, yes. Yeah. Because they have a chance to see your competence. Right. Correct. Yeah. And you present just for our listeners as wildly competent. Wildly competent. I'm ready to just give you all of the things.

So can I ask a couple of provocative questions? And again, I'm just talking to your subconscious here, just to open your heart and mind as we get ready to start thinking through solutions. Has your gender ever helped you in this role in any way? The fact that you're one of the few women walking around the space? I would I would not none that I can think of off the top of my head. I would say in the past when I worked for a, like one single roofing company, it helped me with homeowners. It helped me kind of build relationships with them more or less so that the guys were kind of more likely to get the job, you know, past the sales and everything. They felt more comfortable having, you know, making sure that someone was driving the boat, right? Someone who was organized at the office and, you know,

everything like that. So I would say that was more, I think that's the only time that I can think of that has really helped me. Perfect. If our conversation today were to be wildly successful and helpful to you, what would that look like? I would love to just know how to not really handle these things. I feel like I do yoga and not run every day to kind of like burn off that steam when I do get so mad. Metabolize some of this. Correct. But it's more about when I'm in these conversations with these men, how to, I don't want to say be combative, but overcome those obstacles and also get new clients, you know, from the other side of things, not just the adjusters, but like from a client point of view, getting these roofers,

these contractors to trust me. You know, for example, I, I just got a new client that I had initially spoke with about six months ago and he was like, no, I, you know, I can do it. I'm fine. I got it. And then he was told by a public adjuster that I work very close with, who is a man who was like, Hey man, you should really use her. She's great. You know, like, this is what she can do for you. And now, and now he's a client. So it's like, I almost had to have a man vouch for me in order to get a new client. And so I guess how to, you know, get new clients, but also when I'm talking to these adjusters, how to overcome those obstacles of being dismissed due to obviously, you know, being a female. So when the public adjuster was saying you were awesome, what things do you think they

might have mentioned to this new client? Like what, what make, what would some, what would a third party say is awesome about you? Um, I actually have helped him on quite a few of his own claims. And so it was, hey, this is what she can do for you. She can get you some more money. And if she can't, she will explain why. She'll teach you how to be a better inspector. So when you're going out to inspect these roofs, how to take the pictures that are needed in order to warrant these supplements. So we're talking fences, you know, gutters and kind of things like that, that kind of add up all to one big claim and not just the roof.

You know, she coordinates directly with the insurance company and the adjuster. So you don't have to come home after being on a roof for 12 hours and sacrifice family time, you know, to get these invoicing supplements done, you know, let her handle that. So that's kind of his go-to, you know, kind of speech when he, when he talked to these guys out in the field. That's an incredible value proposition. Yes. And that's what I've told him, you know, I really appreciate it. Do you give him a referral fee for every time he sends me a guy? And so I appreciate that he sees the value in me and what I do. Awesome. All right, Frances, summarize where we are. Yeah, so this issue of biased and first impressions comes up again and again for people in so many different settings. And it's not just about gender. It can be about any kind of identity that's not stereotypically associated with a certain role. Men in nursing, people of color in the executive

suite, and so on. So that's the issue I see here. In our experience, one way to move forward is to own the agency you do have in this flawed system and change your relationship with it. What I like about the problem is, Elizabeth, you're awesome. So now we just have to figure out how to reveal that to the various constituents. I want the end result to be that people are delighted when it's you and not someone else. So we know your value proposition to the contractors. Now I want to know, how do you make the insurance adjuster's job dramatically better off to the point where even if they were bugged by gender, it wouldn't matter because they're so relieved that it's you? So what's the value proposition for them? I would say I feel like I try to do the best job that I can for helping the adjuster doing their job better.

So I, in our software that we write up for invoices and supplements, I bold everything for them. So it really stands out like what I'm asking for. I attach any necessary pictures. I give them code references. So I think, I feel like I do a pretty good job on giving them all the information up front and as much information as possible maybe it's too much maybe maybe that's you know the issue maybe there's like I I don't want to read this three paragraph email because

you know but so may I try something yeah can I ask you for instance as... So may I try something? Yeah, can I ask you, for instance, as you do this, I want to label where you're going. Is it be so much better at your job that gender becomes a non-issue? Is that where you're heading? Yeah, I think that you are hiding your value from people and that permits them to get distracted by silly things. I also have like other comments on gender, but on this one in particular, because even as you're talking,

I'm having trouble understanding your value. And I think once we can do that, you can do it pretty quickly. So that's where I'm going with it is that. So, for example, I think what you just said is to the adjuster, I can save you time and rework and make sure that if you get audited because they must get audited, that it's never going to look like you overpaid. Now, I don't know if those are the right three things. Right. Yeah. No, I would say that's, you know, exactly. Because every time they have they pay out more money, they have to explain that to someone higher up as to why they paid out more money. So I so if that's the value proposition to them, I would try I would use an overt framing in everything I'm doing and just try to focus on the clarity of those three things. So that's where I was going with it. Got it. Do you want to keep pushing on that? Are you ready to go through another door? So let me, we're going to push, we're going to throw a couple threads out there and you pull

on whatever one is interesting to you. And I totally agree with that thesis, by the way. There's nothing like wild success to make this a non-issue. And I think there's some real leverage here that you have because you are so good at what you do and making sure that other people, everyone in this chain understands what you can do for them. I think that is great, Being more clear, concise. And

when I'm emailing them, instead of being like, just introducing myself and being straight to the point, like, I'm here to help you, you know, I'm here to help save you time. Yes. And save you rework. Yeah. Like, yeah, like making it the value proposition proposition super duper clear, like you are on their side. Okay. All right. Let me give you another thread to play with here. So obviously, you can't control your gender, you can't control the existence of bias in your operating environment. You do have a quite a bit of control over how you work with it and around it. I'm going back to the story of your brother. So I'm wondering if there are other ways to get you into a creative, almost like playful

posture around this, where it feels less personal. I almost want to gamify this in some way, you know, where it's like, this is just, this is like one of the demons in the video game that you got to deal with, but you're fucking Elizabeth. So like you can handle it. So how can you outsmart the demon here? Are there ways to like, even use this to your advantage? Can you have a male, a fake male assistant that emails in advance? You know, can we use your brother more creatively? You know, I worked in, when I started my own company, our investors were from the oil and gas industry. They had not interacted with a lady CEO. Yes. Well, in the offices where I pitched them, I remember having the thought as I was pitching

them, as they were looking at me like I was a total anomaly, because that a woman hadn't been standing up in that room who was not delivering lunch or taking a message. And we had a fantastic, we ended up having a fantastic relationship. They ended up referring to me as the lady CEO in their portfolio, which I freaking loved. And it was, but it took us a while to all get to know each other. It took a willingness on their part to not turn me into a cartoon. It also took a willingness on my part to not turn them into a cartoon, which I was tempted to do on so many days when the relationship wasn't working. So I just, this is a thread around how do we get you into a mindset where like, this is one of your entrepreneurial challenges, but you are up for the

task, Elizabeth. That's a great idea. And I've even flirted with that idea before when you say, like gamify it a little bit, like taking my name off my email signature, and just being this person behind an email, and seeing what kind of response I get from that. You know, I've kind of just being this mysterious person, you know, to the insurance company that like, oh, this is just, you know, any other person that's emailing. And so I thought about that, but I didn't know if that would lose the personal touch. But I think that's, it's worth it. You know, it's definitely worth a shot, like, you know, having some mysterious male assistant, you know, that can email or call them, you know, whatever that may look like, to try to get a gender neutral name where it's not clear. I mean, or you use your

initial, you know, you have your your email address is E whatever. I mean, what I love about this is this is also you're running experiments. You're running experiments in in, you know, slipping this incredible human Elizabeth under the fence. And you may have to get a little squirrely to get under that fence and around that bias. Are there other experiments you've considered? And as far as like getting new clients, I've even thought about, well, do I, you know, sub out that meeting work, you know, to my public adjuster friend, you know, or, you know, whatever that may look like, like, hey, go meet this man and y'all can do whatever it is. And then, you know, he can just kind of be the out there person. And then I can just be back here and they can call me whenever it comes to,

but like that initial, initial sales pitch, would it be better coming from a man you know than me can i respond yes yeah like so i think um we both got very excited yeah like your alliance with this partner who really sees your value um i think is a really exciting starting place so like what other experiments could you run with him, this public adjuster? In my own case, when I was building this, there was a point in the business when it was clear to me that I needed a male sales guy. And I found someone right out of central casting. He was gorgeous, charismatic, super talented. We became dear, dear friends and partners in building this business.

And it was just a super, you know, I had pushed against people, you know, willing to accept me as a messenger. And I was like, let's just do it this way. And I never looked back. Well, and here's the part, Elizabeth, that I just got excited when you were saying it. You're looking for someone like you're the intermediary for people and you make it better. You create a win-win. And now you're looking for an intermediary who can make it better and look for a win-win. I think it makes perfect sense.

And I also don't think it's probably just the gender of this person. I think there's probably some other things going on. But I love the idea of you having an intermediary. You know, sometimes when we're a small business, a one person shop, we like to give the illusion of a larger business. And that is we create a network. And so you have this person as part of your network. But you know what? I can imagine you having five people as part of your network again, because you don't have to improve the quality of what you do. We just want to improve the reach of what you are. I think it makes perfect sense. So I love that on the sales for the contractor side. Okay. I just didn't, I didn't want it to seem

like, you know, I have to rely on, you know, this guy to like go, I didn't want to see. Here's the way to think about it, Elizabeth. You are going to have 10 or 100 times the business that you do now. And you will not be able to be both the deliverer of that business and the head of sales. So if you're going to both be the head of sales and the chief content officer, that can only be for a very small business. But your ambition is greater than that. So given that we know you need more people on the sales side, that's what you're doing now. So I want you to be unapologetic about it. You're building your sales network. Okay. And we want to give you like, you've given us casually, as an aside, like 10 great ideas that have occurred to you and you've

discarded. And I also want to give you license to run real experiments around those ideas. You don't know if they're good ideas or bad ideas, but it doesn't mean that you are signing up permanently for this. So like, what would a good experiment look like? Can you run a quick pilot on whether, you know, partnering in this way or signing an email in this way is helpful to you? There's no way to know until you try. Okay. So Elizabeth, we could have this conversation all day with you about how to build this business. But let me check in. How are you feeling about slaying the dragon of gender? I feel a lot better about it now. You know, I really, the biggest thing is like, don't be apologetic for having to do the tricks and the things and in order to get my point across

or my value across, like if I have to use somebody, use somebody like it just helps me. Part of your network. It's part of the game. This was fun about business. It's a game. And the presence of bias is part of the game. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was always scared to kind of admit that and be like, I don't need anyone. I got it. I'm a strong, independent woman, like whatever, like if they don't like me, so be it. And so I think kind of being okay and open to that and, you know, unapologetic about it. Yeah. And Elizabeth, what I like about that is that you could be a strong, independent woman and have a one woman show, or you could learn how to build a network and be part of a larger organization and you are destined for a larger organization.

Yes, I hope so. I sure hope so. I'm going to definitely restructure some things and kind of see how it goes. Awesome. Elizabeth, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. Will you let us know how it goes? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I just want to thank you guys so much. I listen to your podcast on runs in the morning and it's just, it's so helpful. Like one of the biggest things I want to say is like the meeting thing. I used to have meetings that were just three hours, four hours long with some of my clients. And I'm like, you've got like, we've got to get a plan together. So I really have implemented that.

So I want to thank you guys so much for that as well. Oh, we love hearing it. We love it. That's awesome. Support for this show comes from Airbnb. If you know me, you know I love staying in Airbnbs when I travel. They make my family feel most at home when we're away from home. As we settled down at our Airbnb during a recent vacation to Palm Springs, I pictured my own home sitting empty. Wouldn't it be smart and better put to use welcoming a family like mine by hosting it on Airbnb? It feels like the practical

thing to do, and with the extra income, I could save up for renovations to make the space even more inviting for ourselves and for future guests. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca slash host. Oh, that was fun. That was totally fun. I'm so rooting for her. I know. I'm not rooting for a tree to fall on the house, but I know who to call.

I know who to call. Frances, another thing that I was thinking about during this conversation is a phrase we use a lot and you know that I love, which is to engage with the best version of someone. And I think it's another useful tool to have in the toolkit for situations like this. So can you just explain what we mean by that and maybe give us some tactics on how to go down that road? So I've become aware of it. It was something I was doing without being aware. I became aware of it when I was coaching faculty on teaching. And a student would make a comment that was on the side of aggressive and that if you wanted to, you could have gotten into a defensive crouch and battled the student. Or you could interact with the best version of the student and all of the aggression went away and it just went to the learning.

And so I think here, you know, I'm sure people say dopey things to her. She told us they do. And they say dopey things about gender. And so we can choose to engage with that. Or the version of moving the learning forward for her is how do we get better claims adjustments? Yeah, I think the power of this conversation is about getting in touch with the agency that we have as individuals to chip away at our experience. And it is my experience of myself that we often have more agency than we realize. I think that's right. And I was really, you know, you and I have this conversation of what do we do at the individual level and what do we do at the system level? And the truth is, the answer is always we need both. But at any moment in time,

we should be in touch with our individual agency. And then, yes, of course, we're working to combat the systems thing so that it makes the need for individual agency less and less frequent. And at any moment in time, we want to be able to have full access to our agency. And one of those things is the way in which I interact with you is going to influence how you interact with me. I know that that is that is the mind blowing part of this. Absolutely. Well, thanks for listening, everybody. Absolutely. 434-349-2253. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris.

And me, Anne Morris. And me, Frances Fry. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Heilash. This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard.

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