TED Talks Daily - Sunday Pick: How to say no | WorkLife with Adam Grant

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

In a world filled with requests, many of us are struggling to stay afloat. Even if you’re not a people-pleaser, the desire to maintain a positive reputation can make it hard to turn others down. In this episode, Adam explores the art and science of delivering an effective “no.” He highlights strategies for setting boundaries with others to create space for yourself—and healthier relationships with those around you. Want to help shape TED’s shows going forward? Fill out our survey! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, TED Talks Daily listeners. It's Elise. Thank you for making this show part of your daily routine. We really appreciate it and we want to make it even better for you. So we put together a quick survey and we'd love to hear your thoughts. It's listener survey time. It only takes a few minutes, but it really helps us shape the show and get to know you, our listeners, so much better.

Head to the episode description to find the link to the listener survey. We would really appreciate you doing it. Thank you so much for taking the time to help the show. I'm Dana Duncanson from Table Six. And I'm Laurie Weir. If you've ever spent 20 minutes trying to get on The Gardener, then this podcast is for you. Or if you've ever waited for a streetcar and ended up late for work. Table Six is the podcast where the people shaping Toronto pull up a chair, from city

builders to culture makers. It's where Civic Convo meets King Street chaos. Check out the Table Six podcast on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube. This episode is sponsored by Google Pixel. I am always looking for tools that help me stay curious and efficient. And lately I've been exploring the Google Pixel 9, which was gifted to me by Google. What's impressed me most is how it's powered by Gemini. That's Google's personal AI assistant built right into my phone.

Gemini helps me brainstorm ideas, summarize emails, even plan out my day, all just by holding the power button. For example, let me show you how easy it is. Gemini, summarize my unread emails. Re, away next week. Jonathan confirmed with Elise Hugh about rescheduling a meeting. Reminder, development committee meeting tomorrow at 12 p.m. Central time. It's super helpful for staying on top of things without feeling overwhelmed. Or when I needed a quick dinner plan, I snapped a photo of what I had in my fridge and Gemini gave me recipe ideas. It's like having a research assistant right in my pocket. If you can think it, Gemini can help create it. Learn more about Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com. Support for this episode comes from Airbnb. Winter always makes me dream of a warm getaway.

Imagine this, toes in the sand, the sound of the waves, and nothing on the agenda except soaking up the sun. I think of myself in the Caribbean, sipping on a frozen drink and letting my troubles melt into the sea. Maybe Jamaica, Turks and Caicos, St. Lucia, lots of possibilities for me and my family to explore. But vacations always fly by too quickly. I was planning my next getaway when I realized my home will be sitting empty while I'm away.

That's why I've been thinking about hosting on Airbnb. It'll allow me to earn extra income and could help me extend that trip just a little longer. One more sunset, one more amazing meal, one more day to unwind. It sounds like the smart thing to do and I've heard it's easy to get started. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at www.arabianb.ca. Hey TED Talks daily listeners, I'm Elise Hough. Today we have an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective hand-bicked by us for you. Saying no can be one of the hardest things to do. Even if you're not a people ple one of the hardest things to do. Even if you're not a people pleaser, the desire to maintain a positive reputation at

work or with friends can make it hard to turn people down. Lucky for us, Work Life with Adam Grant is back for a new season. In the episode, Adam explores the art and the science of saying no. He shares strategies for setting boundaries with others that allow us to create space for ourselves and in turn healthier relationships with those around us. If you want to learn more ways to work smarter, you're in luck. You can find work life wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about the TED audio collective at audio collective.ted.com. When my wife, Alison and I became parents, one of the first gifts we got was the classic book,

The Giving Tree. We remembered it having a meaningful message about generosity, but when we reread it, we found it disturbing and we weren't alone. It was desperately sad. Meet Topher Payne. I am a playwright and teacher in Atlanta. I think of you as the ultimate repairman for broken children's books.

I'll absolutely take that. One of Topher's projects is writing new endings for classic children's books. In 2020, he picked up the giving tree for the first time since childhood. To refresh your memory, here's the gist. Once there was a tree and the tree loved the boy. And every day the little boy would come and play in the tree's branches, and they had a marvelous friendship.

But as the boy grows up, he starts asking for things. And the tree always says yes. First it's apples. Eventually it's wood to build a house. And the tree always says yes. First it's apples, eventually it's wood to build a house. And the tree gives her branches which do grow back but they grow back so much slower but she gives them up because she loves the boy and then he wants to build a boat and so on and so on until the tree is nothing but a sad little stump and there is nothing left of her. And the boy comes back as an old man,

and she has nothing left to give, and he sits on her. The end. So, for me, the most fucked up part of the story is the ending, where the tree is reduced to a literal stump, and it says, and the tree was happy. Yeah. Like what the hell are you talking about? The tree isn't happy. The tree hardly exists anymore. No. You know, the most common hot take that I hear on the story is that

it is an allegory for maternal love. You just give everything that you have to your child and then you see them thriving and they are so happy. And the two things that I want to say to that are one, nuh-uh, that's not how motherhood should work. And two, the boy is not happy. There is nothing in the story that indicates that this behavior results in the boy being happy. The boy always comes back seeking more and doesn't understand why he doesn't feel fulfilled. That's exactly right. I mean, the boy is a huge taker, the worst. And it's, I don't even know, people saying this is an allegory for maternal love,

like no, it's an allegory for an abusive relationship. Yes. This notion of give till it hurts. No, sometimes pain is a sensor telling you to stop something. And so don't give till it hurts and certainly don't give past hurting. And the tree does. Well said. The tree has confused giving with self-sacrifice.

And it almost seems like the tree is the most extreme people pleaser you could possibly imagine. I'm going to neglect whatever my own needs are in order to say yes to whatever this boy asks for. And then you will believe how much I love you. The giving tree illustrates a familiar problem in life and at work. The temptation to say yes to everyone and everything. We think it makes us likeable and promotable. But if you want to build balanced relationships and achieve your goals, you need to master the art of saying no. I'm Adam Grant, and this is Work Life, my podcast with Ted. I'm an organizational psychologist.

I study how to make work not suck. In this show, we explore how to unlock the potential in people and workplaces. Today, why it's so hard to say no, and how we can get better at setting boundaries. Hi, it's Morgan from Off the Shelf and I'm here to tell you how my Google Pixel 9 has become my virtual librarian. Google sent me the phone to try out and naturally the first thing I did was ask Gemini for some book recs. What book should I read if I want an enemies to lovers workplace romance? For an enemies to lovers workplace romance here are some popular and well regarded books. The Hating Game by Sally Thor. This is a classic example of the trope. As a mood reader I just tell Gemini the tropes and genre I'm feeling and it gives me a full list. You can learn more about the Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com

feeling and it gives me a full list. You can learn more about the Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com. I'm Dana Duncanson from Table Six. And I'm Laurie Weir. If you've ever spent 20 minutes trying to get on the Garner, then this podcast is for you. Or if you've ever waited for a streetcar and ended up late for work. Table Six is the podcast where the people shaping Toronto pull up a chair from city builders to culture makers. It's where Civic Convo meets King Street chaos. Check out the Table Six podcast on Spotify, Apple and YouTube. For a long time, I was a people pleaser. I bent over backward to say yes to as many people and as many requests as I could.

I thought that was core to being a kind, giving person. But I was overextending myself. I knew it was bad when I started wondering if I needed to schedule calls with my friends because I was too busy helping randos. Then I read research suggesting that the root of chronic people pleasing is not concern for others. It's concern for their approval. In other words, it's not about them.

It's about you. I wasn't going overboard for others because I cared too much about them. I was doing it because I cared too much about their opinions of me. I said yes because I wanted them to like me and accept me. It probably started as a solution to being bullied in elementary school, but it had created a new problem. I'd come to rely on others for self-esteem. I craved their validation, so I was putting them above myself.

The evidence is clear. Not only is that a path to emotional exhaustion, it doesn't actually build strong connections. It creates one-sided relationships where we feel used instead of supported. And at work, it can undermine rather than advance our progress. I needed to learn to say no. But just saying no is not as easy as it sounds. No is a complete sentence is my least favorite expression in all of like the self-help literature. It drives me insane.

Vanessa Bonds is a professor of organizational behavior at Cornell and the author of You Have More Influence Than You Think. She's an expert on the psychology of saying no. And the thing that's funniest to me is like yes is a complete sentence. So like if you imagine someone asking you for something and you just say, sure, or yes, I'd be happy to, right? Like all that's you don't need any justification. You don't need to explain why you said yes.

But I don't know anyone who feels comfortable just saying no, without any explanation or kind of, you know, way of placating the other person. Vanessa knows this from experience. She has a long history of people-pleasing. Definitely. I'm such a people-pleaser. It's, yeah. Are you just saying that to please me right now? I guess that's the best test of a people-pleaser.

Are you a people-pleaser? And the people-pleasers just say yes. In one of her early studies, Vanessa investigated whether people say yes to In one of her early studies, Vanessa investigated whether people say yes to requests more often than we realized. She asked people in New York City to guess the odds that strangers would agree to onerous requests,

like walking them to a destination they couldn't find or even borrowing their cell phone. Then she sent them out to actually make those requests. Even New Yorkers said yes a lot more than expected. Nearly half agreed to walk people to their destinations, and nearly half handed over their cell phones. Across all these different requests. It was typically about twice as likely for people to agree to these requests as our participants

expected. So, why do we say yes so often, even to questionable requests from total strangers? One of the best ways I think about a request is it's essentially someone sort of reaching their hand out to another person. So it's like, I'm extending my hand and asking for your help. Or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you for a date.

Or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you for a date. Or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you to like, join me in this unethical pursuit. But whatever it is, it's like, I'm extending my hand and asking you to cooperate with me. And if you don't take my hand, if you say no, if you reject me, you are not being cooperative. And everything in our being, you know, from how we've evolved to how we've been

socialized, tells us that we're supposed to cooperate with other people. And so when we say no, we're potentially risking damaging our reputation and looking like uncooperative people. We're potentially damaging our relationship with that person. And then there's also this risk of sort of tangible repercussions, right? It's possible that this person won't reciprocate down the line. It's even possible that they'll get aggressive with us because they're upset.

So there's just so many risks, many of them social, but some of them even instrumental involved in saying no. Especially at work, where pay and promotions often seem to be riding on saying yes. Surprisingly, we often feel extra pressure with more distant colleagues. It's called the acquaintance trap.

With people close to you, your relationship is secure, so you don't need to worry as much about declining. With strangers, there's no relationship, so there's not as much pressure to uphold a reputation. But with acquaintances, relationships are just uncertain enough that you feel like you can't say no, because you want them to like you. And for certain groups, these pressures are magnified. Women are socialized to be communal and cooperative. And so when we say no, when we essentially say, no, I'm not going to cooperate,

right? First of all, we aren't living up to the expectations that we've been socialized to have that we're supposed to be communal and cooperative. And so we feel bad about ourselves. We also are often punished reputationally because we're not conforming to the stereotype of women being communal and cooperative. And so people kind of see us as less warm. They may, you know, have sort of a negative impression of us if we say no, because it doesn't fit what they're expecting us to say. I think I was known as like the nice girl in class, which as an adult I look back on

and I'm like, hmm, what does that really mean? What does being nice really mean? Sherri Liu is a content creator and the founder of the eldest daughter club, an online community for eldest daughters. She's also a fellow recovering people pleaser. This impulse started as a kid when she really wanted to be liked.

And so I think part of being liked though, if you just want everyone to like you, you can't really take too much risks. Like one thing you can't really say no, someone asks you for something. What kinds of things would you say yes to? People would ask me for help on homework. People would ask me for help on school projects. And I was happy to say yes and help on those things,

but it was not really coming out of a place, I feel like, where I was like, oh, I genuinely feel like I want to help. It was that, like, I want to make others happy, but I'm also so scared to say no, because what if you're unhappy with me? These experiences led Sherry to create her community of eldest daughters. They live in the center of a Venn diagram of people-pleasing pressure.

They're female, and they often take on parenting responsibilities at a young age. My little sister is seven years younger, and when your little sister or little sibling has a significant age gap, you don't grow up as peers. Your little sibling is looking up to you. And so the eldest daughter part, I think of people pleasing comes in when you feel like your actions are just more than your own. And it has this trickle down effect to your little sibling. Sherry's cultural background also plays into this.

So I'm the eldest daughter of an immigrant family, meaning I was born here, but my parents immigrated from China. And so they brought a different culture in raising. And I think like just in generally Asian cultures, it's more collectivist than the Western culture. You're really cognizant of authority and you want to make sure like authority being like your parents or your bosses. And that goes hand in hand with respect. And you want to make sure everyone around you is comfortable and you're always anticipating other people's needs. This proved to be a challenge at the beginning of her career.

People think, me, because I am not only an Asian woman, but also short in stature, that I'm just going to say yes to everything. And they expect me to, in a way that I think they don't expect my other colleagues. And so when I started my first job, I knew that for me to be successful in corporate America, I can't be saying yes to everything because I need to make sure I get

promoted and I can't be promoted if I'm doing a secretarial work a hundred percent of the time or the work that nobody wants to do and gives it to me and the work that has no impact. and gives it to me and the work that has no impact. And so in the workplace, I was like, okay, like I myself am trying like my best not people please and stand up for myself. But at the same time, I had to experience this additional challenge of people just thinking like, oh, like this is someone who's going to say yes to everything we ask.

Research shows that unfortunately, helping at work is less optional for women than men. Women are asked to do the lion's share of the office housework, taking notes in meetings, planning events. They face more pressure to say yes, but get less credit. It's taken for granted. She's warm and caring. She wants to help.

When a man helps, it's rewarded. I never would have expected him to care about another person. What a great guy. If he declines, he gets a pass, but a woman faces a penalty. Saying no violates the unfair expectation for women to be other-oriented. And these dynamics are often heightened for women of color. So even though Sherry knew this might be a risk going into her job, she still wound up saying yes too often.

That is, until she got a new manager. And I was telling her, I was like, I've worked so hard this year. I've been working towards a promotion, like where am I? Like, and she looked me straight in the face and she was like, all of your projects, you're working a lot,

but you're all helping other people. Like you need something that you own. And I was like, but I don't have time to do any of these things because everybody needs my support and like, I want to help the team. And she's like, well, I'm just going to be honest with you for you to like gain leverage in the workplace and to like eventually be a senior leader. You need to really carve out things of impact that you yourself lead. And that means saying no to other extraneous requests.

It actually doesn't help you to be the most easygoing person in the office and say yes to everything. Everyone's gonna like you, but that won't get you anywhere." And I was like, oh my goodness, I need to start saying no to things. Sherri enlisted her manager's help. After that conversation, in the future, I would go to my managers and I would very clearly articulate what I wanted. I was like, okay, it's my priority to do these things, but just so you know, for me to do these things,

I'm going to need the time to do them. And that is going to mean that I might have to say no to requests that maybe my coworkers ask me, requests that maybe sister teams are gonna ask me, requests maybe like upper management might ask me, and I'm going to have to count on you as my manager to help me say no and to help me deflect things that aren't actually going to be important on my team.

That conversation made a difference. It made it so much easier for me to say no because I also knew that my manager was on my side and that they would also stick up for me. And that saying no wouldn't mean people thinking I was a bad coworker because it would be clear that I'm saying no because I want to say yes on the things that are actually unfortunate.

It's easy to default to saying yes, but as Sherry learned, there are big payoffs to protecting your own time and boundaries. How do you say no without jeopardizing your reputation and relationships? More on that after the break. This episode is sponsored by Sell Off Vacations. You know how sometimes a single experience, one moment, one place, can shift your perspective entirely? Travel does that. It moves us not just physically but emotionally, even spiritually. We deserve those moments. That's where Sell-Off Vacations comes in. For over 30 years they've been helping Canadians travel happy, whether it's a sun-soaked getaway,

a cruise through the Mediterranean, or a local escape right here at home. Their community of travel experts have actually been to the places you're dreaming about, and they're ready to help you plan your perfect trip, no matter your budget. Because happy travels start with sell-off vacations, and when you're ready to book, their best price promise means they won't just match a lower price, they'll beat it. That kind of peace of mind is rare and valuable. So if you're thinking about your next trip, even if it's just a daydream, remember, happy travels start with the experts at SellOff Vacations. Visit SellOffVacations.com today. Google just sent us a Pixel 9 as a gift and I think I just found the ultimate science

hack. Okay, I gotta see this. All right, watch this. Hey Gemini, explain greenhouse gases to me like I'm five. Imagine the earth is like your bedroom and the sun is like a big lamp that shines light and warmth inside. Now imagine you have a blanket on your bed. During the day, the lamp shines.

Okay, that's actually a really great explanation. Right? It's like having a built-in science tutor. Check out the Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com. I'm Dana Duncanson from Table Six. And I'm Lori Weir. If you've ever spent 20 minutes trying to get on the Garner, then this podcast is for you. Or if you've ever waited for a streetcar

and ended up late for work. Table Six is the podcast where the people shaping Toronto pull up a chair, from city builders to culture makers. It's where Civic Convo meets King Street Chaos. Check out the Table Six podcast on Spotify, Apple and YouTube. Back in 2013, the New York Times Magazine did a cover story about my research on why it's better to be a giver than a taker. It was called, Is Giving the Secret to Getting Ahead? And it went into detail about my efforts to help as many people as I could. I'd become a caricature of a giver.

And after the article came out, people started seeing me as the generosity guy. It was like a flashing neon sign for takers. This guy will say yes to anything. I got flooded with thousands of emails from acquaintances and complete strangers wanting things. Hey Adam, will you review my book? Hey Adam. Hey Adam. Can you give me some advice?

Would love your thoughts on my draft. Do you have some time to chat? It was a wake up call. I realized that there's a big difference between pleasing people and helping them. Yeah, I have a lot to say about that. So essentially, you know, there's a distinction between giving and giving in.

In her research, Vanessa Bonds has found that saying no doesn't have to burn bridges. We do tend to overestimate how negatively we'll be seen if we say no. I think part of that is because we're so focused on this one moment, right? This is super salient, right? We pay attention to the thing that's right in front of our face, the super tangible thing, and we're like, oh, this is the only way people are going to know me in this moment. But in fact, people have a much longer-term impression of us. They've seen all the times we have helped, and this is just one out of many instances.

Once you accept that it's acceptable to say no, you need some boundaries. I certainly did. My favorite way to set them is to create personal policies. Instead of treating every request as a separate dilemma, I made a list of guidelines for what kinds of requests I wouldn't fulfill. I don't work for companies for free. I don't give career advice to strangers.

I don't write forwards to books. It's one thing to set boundaries. It's another to communicate them. For more than a decade, I've been test-driving strategies for saying no, and I've found three that consistently work. They tend to avoid negative reactions and sometimes even elicit positive ones like, wow, I respect your boundaries, and huh, I need to do more of that myself. You could just say no.

But if you're worried that the other person might be upset, it can be helpful to give reasons. Research suggests that when you provide a credible explanation, people are more understanding, even if it's not the response they wanted. That goes to my first strategy for saying no. Explain your personal policies. When you walk through your philosophy on boundaries, you make it clear to people that you're not rejecting them.

It's not about them at all. Totally. It's like those email signatures that say, I don't check email during these hours. It's like not only protecting your time, it's teaching people a norm. Maybe we all shouldn't check email at those hours. An easy one is, will you post about my book

on social media? No, that would quickly turn my feed into book launch spam. I can't do it for everyone. I won't do it for anyone. Yeah, you know what's funny about that too, speaking as someone who asked you for a book endorsement, my assumption going in is like, this person's going to say no. And so, you

know, you knowing that as the person being asked that that person doesn't necessarily expects a yes, right? If they do, that's kind of entitled. And I feel like it's a different category of person. So like, most people are not expecting a yes. So a polite, warm, thoughtful no is like a win for a lot of people, right? Sure enough, there's evidence that if you're the one being asked, you tend to focus on the outcome for the help seeker. But they judge the interaction more by how they're treated in the process. Wow, Adam Grant sent me a really nice email back.

You know, he couldn't do it and that's fine. I mean, he's really busy. So I think understanding that people don't necessarily expect a yes, and they're pleasantly surprised when you do say yes. I think that's just an important thing to know. This speaks to the second strategy, conveying care. You can say no in a way that still shows concern for others.

So when I go to the grocery store, they always ask for donations. And I always say, oh, I've already given this year. And that makes me feel like, OK, I've said I'm a generous person. You know, I've declined nicely, but it's a clear no. Research reveals that this is especially effective for women to avoid backlash. So one thing a lot of women I know do is they'll have a list of all the things that they have agreed to. And so they'll say, you know, I would love to do this, but I'm doing one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, you know, all these other things. And that shows like, look at how giving and communal and cooperative I've been. I'm a major contributor to this organization,

but I just can't say yes to this. I have too much on my plate. I often just say, sorry, my plate is beyond full. Then I offer something that costs me nothing, but I hope is beneficial to them. For the most common requests, I've written up responses to frequently asked questions. Strangers Seeking Career Advice get a list of my favorite books, articles, and podcasts. So when somebody asks for your help, you can give it yourself, or you can ask for help

from someone else. So, if you're a person who's looking for help, you can ask for help from someone else. And if you're a person who's looking for help, you can ask for help from someone else. So, if you're a person who's looking for help, you can give it yourself or you can help that person, sometimes just as well as if you did it yourself by referring them to another person. You could say, I could help you, but actually my colleague knows even more about that and I'd be happy to refer you to them. But research has shown that we really don't like to do that. It's called referral aversion.

We worry, first of all, that it's going to make us look incompetent, right? So that kind of gets at this idea of like my reputational concerns. And people also worry that it's going to kind of damage the relationship with the other person. I think there's a sense of like, I am worthy as long as people need me. We're also afraid that by passing the baton, we'll be letting others down. And it turns out those fears are generally misplaced. We actually overestimate how much people are disappointed by getting a referral, right? And so that that concern is often bigger in our own heads than it is for the other person.

And so if it was purely other oriented, right, it might be best for the other person for you to refer them elsewhere. And yet we hold on to that request and we feel like we need to take it on ourselves. The day that I became not only comfortable but also enthusiastic about saying, you know what, I actually know someone who's more qualified to help on this and also is gonna take more time for you. The day I was excited to do that

is the day I felt like I was starting to get over this chronic need to be liked. And I think that it sort of crystallized for me as a difference between being needed and being valued. That if I felt like other people needed me, I felt like they were dependent on me and it was creating a sense of obligation that I had to help them. And I would worry about them. I would feel guilty if I let them down, and what I want is to be valued. Absolutely. There is so much sort of advice and information out there for how to get better at saying no,

and we tend to put so much pressure on the person who has to say no to be the one to manage that, right? To come up with, you know, we have these strategies like you and I have been talking about, but there's a responsibility on the people asking to be the one to manage that, right? To come up with, you know, we have these strategies like you and I have been talking about, but there's a responsibility on the people asking to ask in ways that aren't coercive.

The data point to several ways to do that. To avoid imposing, you can ask, would you or someone you know be willing to... Vanessa finds that it also helps to give people the words to say no. When I make requests, I often say, no pressure, no obligation, no repercussions. And when I invited Vanessa to this podcast, I couldn't resist writing, if you'd like to refuse, please say the words, hell no.

We found that when you give people the words to say no, that they don't necessarily say no more, although maybe a little bit. But the big thing is they feel more like they could have said no, right? It feels more voluntary when they do agree. Another way to show respect is giving people time to process. So making a request and saying, you know, let me know tomorrow or let me know when you've had some time to think about it. And asking over email is much less coercive than asking in person. How much less? In one study, Vanessa found that people were 34 times more likely to say yes face-to-face than by email.

And so I often give the advice of, if someone asks you something in person face-to-face, ask them if you could take some time and respond over email. Say, I'll think about that a little bit. I'll send you an email with my answer tomorrow, or whatever it is. So that is kind of getting you out of that pressure zone, giving you some time to think, actually make a mindful decision about what you want to do,

and then respond to them in a way that you feel good about. I mean, that's another thing to think about. Each time we say yes to something, we're kind of saying this is OK. We're saying it is acceptable for us to ask these things. Sometimes we don't want people to feel like, oh, that was wrong to ask.

But sometimes it's like, no, I'm actually going to teach you that this isn't something you should be asking for. I'm so glad you brought that up. I was just talking with our students about this. And we had an example where a student said, like she's one of the only people she knows on campus with a car.

So whenever anybody she knows needs something that requires transportation, like they basically impose on her for like car privileges. And she said it was starting to damage some of her friendships and they were using her, but she didn't want to hurt the relationship. And I was like, look at this from the other side, which is every time you say, yes, you are licensing and reinforcing that behavior and you're failing to educate

people and teach them that you have boundaries. And so setting a boundary is actually not only a chance for, you know, for you to protect your time and, and your relationships. It's also a chance for those people to learn what's a reasonable ask and what's inappropriate. I had a colleague who just kept asking me shamelessly for things that were unreasonable in the first place, like, will you read and comment line by line on seven of my papers? And I did my usual polite nose, and he just would not go away. And finally, it must have been the

seventh or eighth request. I wrote back and I said, I'm working on getting better at saying no. Thank you for the practice. I love that. That's one of the recommendations I give to when people want a reason to say no. That's like, it's not because I'm a bad person, it's not because I'm not helpful, it's just, I'm working on this. It says like I am, my default is to say yes to this, but like I'm doing it too much. Don't be afraid to have some fun with it. E.B. White, the author of Charlotte's Web, once turned down an invitation by writing, I must decline for secret reasons. writing, I must decline for secret reasons. An amusing or thoughtful no may well be appreciated more than a thoughtless yes, as Sherry Liu

found out. She got in the habit of explaining her boundaries and conveying care. Like immediately, I would say, hey, I'm at bandwidth right now, but I wouldn't just say no straight up. I would offer what I can help. If I were you, this is how I would approach it. And I would give them maybe a framework to go about it. She made referrals. I would say, I can't help you at this time.

However, if you need it urgently, so-and-so might be able to give you the answer. She learned that saying no wasn't as scary or risky as she'd expected. What surprised me when I started saying no in just all aspects of life is that people are actually really understanding. Like most people when they ask you something,

it's not like a life or death situation, or it's not black or white. It's not like they ask you something if you don't do it they'll stop being your friend and I think when you start saying no and you realize sometimes people are just like okay no worries I'll do it myself or like no worries I'll ask somebody else. You're like this thing that I in my head that was just so important to them actually was not that important to them

that I helped them with it at this specific moment. And when someone says no to me for a good reason, I'm like, okay, whatever. Like, I totally understand. And I'm like, okay, wait, like if I react like this, then like, why do I feel like people are gonna dislike me if I do the same exact thing? And it's so interesting to hear you say this

as a long recovering slash mostly recovered people pleaser. One of the things that I've been surprised by is sometimes like a clear fast no leads people to respect me more. You know, let me, this is like an odd example, but you know how like, are you a cat person Adam? Yeah, we have two cats. How'd you know? I? Don't know how to guess how to guess um, but I think cats get more respect sometimes because they draw strong boundaries

You know and then when a cat like when a cat who's not very cuddly comes in like cuddles you on your lap We're like gives you affection. You're like, oh my goodness Like this day is like the best day ever like they chose me versus like maybe a dog. My family has a dog. She's like huddly all the time and super affectionate. And when she's affectionate, like we are also very happy, but it's not the same amount of shock and joy as if like a cat who doesn't do that does it to you. I have to laugh at the cat comment because I'll never forget when I when I turned in my first book I remember my editor reading it and saying you know Adam Dogs are givers and cats are takers

Do you agree? No, I don't agree Yeah, I think cats are they're more selective And that means it really counts when they give. What does that say? Setting boundaries isn't a display of disrespect. It's an expression of self-respect. It's not about letting others down. It's about standing up for yourself.

Saying no is not selfish. It's an act of self-preservation. Which brings us back to the giving tree, or as Topher Payne's rewrite is called, the tree who set healthy boundaries. His version starts when the boy is grown up and returns to the tree for the first time. I am too busy to climb trees, said the boy.

I want a house to keep me warm, he said. I want a wife and I want children and so I need a house. Can you give me a house? And the tree said, Okay, hold up, this is already getting out of hand. Look, I was fine with giving you the apples to help you get on your feet. They'll grow back next season anyway. But no, I'm not giving you

a house. You know, I've seen boys like you pull this nonsense with other trees in the forest. First it's the apples, then branches, then the trunk, and before you know it, that mighty beautiful tree is just a sad little stump. Well look here, boy. I love you like family, but I am not going down like that." And the boy is okay with that. He realizes he hasn't been a very good friend and begins to look after the tree, just like the tree looked after him. Eventually, he has kids who also love the tree.

And as each generation played in her strong old branches, the tree often thought back to the fateful day when the boy had asked her for a house. In truth, she would have gladly given him her branches to build one. She would have given him her trunk to build a boat. She loved him that much. him that much. But then she would have had nothing left. Not for herself, nor anyone else. And there never would have been a home for the red squirrels. There'd have been no hide and seek with the boy's grandchildren. No bakery with the best apple pies anyone ever tasted.

Setting healthy boundaries is a very important part of giving. It assures you'll always have something left to give. And so the tree was happy. Everyone was. The end. This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our team includes Brittany Cronin, Constanza Gallardo, Greta Cohn, Grace Rubenstein, Daniela Bollarezzo, Benben Cheng, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Heilash. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed by Sarah Bruguier. Original music by Hans-Dale Su and Allison Leighton Brown.

Gratitude to the following researchers and their colleagues. Heidi Fritz and Vicki Helgeson on Unmitigated Communion. Vanessa Patrick on The Acquaintance Trap. Madeline Heilman and Julie Chen on Gender and their colleagues. Heidi Fritz and Vicki Helgeson on Unmitigated Communion. Vanessa Patrick on The Acquaintance Trap. Madeline Heilman and Julie Chen on Gender and Helping. Linda Babcock and colleagues on Non-Promotable Tasks. Jennifer Berdahl and Celia Moore on Double Jeopardy in the Workplace. Daly and Kane and colleagues on Giving vs. Giving In. Jerry Greenberg and Tom Tyler on Legitimacy. Joel Brockner on Receiver Reactions. Hannah Riley Bowles on women in negotiation tactics,

Eugene Park on referral aversion, Vanessa's co-authors, Frank Flynn, Rachel Schlund, and Mahdi Roganizad. Thanks to Izzy Carter and Theo Beidler. All right, what's one you want to throw at me? What's the hardest request for you to say no to? I feel like I should eat my own dog food here. I mean, I guess, you know, Adam, I have another book coming out.

Will you plug it on social media? To borrow a line from Jam on the Office? That is not something I am going to do. Adam Grant is so mean. This episode is sponsored by Sell Off Vacations. You know how sometimes a single experience, one moment, one place can shift your perspective entirely? Travel does that. It moves us not just physically, but emotionally, even spiritually. We deserve those moments. That's where sell-off vacations come in.

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Again. Their watch will even send an alert to let you know they finally got to school. Great for kids who don't have a phone because their Apple watch is managed by you on your iPhone. iPhone XS are later required with additional wireless service plan. I'm Dana Duncanson from Table Six. And I'm Laurie Weir. If you've ever spent 20 minutes trying to get on the Garner, then this podcast is for you. Or if you've ever waited for a streetcar and ended up late for work. Table Six is the podcast where the people shaping Toronto pull up a chair,

from city builders to culture makers. It's where Civic Convo meets King Street chaos. Check out the Table Six podcast on Spotify, Apple and YouTube.