TED Talks Daily - Why creativity thrives on challenges | Jon M. Chu

Episode Date: October 19, 2024

Filmmaker Jon M. Chu has enjoyed an incredible run of success, directing films like "Crazy Rich Asians," "In the Heights" and the highly anticipated adaptation of "Wicked" in theaters soon. But he wasn't always sure he'd make it big. In a wide-ranging conversation, Chu gives his thoughts on nurturing creativity, embracing failure and finding inspiration in your upbringing — as well as some key leadership lessons from his new memoir, "Viewfinder." (This live conversation was hosted by TED's Whitney Pennington Rodgers. Visit ted.com/membership to support TED today and join more exclusive events like this one.)

TED Audio Collective. You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. Filmmaker John M. Chu has enjoyed a really successful run over his career, directing films like Crazy Rich Asians, In the Heights, and the upcoming highly anticipated Wicked film in theaters this November. On top of all that, he's out with a new memoir. So we are thrilled that he sat down with TED curator Whitney Pennington-Rogers to talk through how he nurtures creativity, embraces failure,

and how his own family and other influences figured into both. Coming up after a short break. Support for this show comes from Airbnb. If you know me, you know I love staying in Airbnbs when I travel. They make my family feel most at home when we're away from home. As we settled down at our Airbnb during a recent vacation to Palm Springs, I pictured my own home sitting empty. Wouldn't it be smart and better put to use welcoming a family like mine by hosting it on Airbnb? It feels like the practical thing to do, and with the extra income, I could save up for renovations to make the space even more inviting for ourselves and for future guests. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. And now our TED Talk of the day.

Hi, John. Hey, everybody. Hey, Whitney. How you doing? Good. How are you? Very good. It's amazing to see people from all around the world. Yeah, it's very fun. Keep those coming, guys. I think it's always exciting to sort of check out how people are coming here in the middle of the night to be part of these conversations, which is really cool. And I just dropped off my kids. I have four kids, seven, five, three, and one. I have another one on the way. So dropping them off at school and then coming here to talk to the world is pretty, pretty mind blowing. Oh my goodness. Well, congratulations on that. And also on all the other things. So beyond so tired, all the time,

tired from family life, it sounds like. And then also from what we hear, you have lots of other things happening professionally that will are probably also making you very tired. It seems like it's been a very exciting year from you, for you you from your memoir coming out and the first installment of Wicked. So, so far, how would you say 2024 has stacked up and how are you feeling as you round the corner on the end of the year? I feel very focused with a new baby coming and working on Wicked and feeling the pressure, feeling all the fans wanting certain things and what we need from a movie, you know, the cinema as just the business itself and the election, and there's just so much. But I feel very focused. I feel like I know what I need to do.

I'm trying not to get distracted and just focus on getting the work done so I can deliver a movie that says something relevant but is entertaining and fun and crazy and has big musical numbers. And people can take something for the end of the year and celebrate with and share and all those things. Well, I'm excited for that. And I'm excited for us to get into all of that

during this conversation. And I thought maybe we could start actually with your book, which in a lot of ways feels like a nice sort of prequel to the film. You've obviously accomplished so much already in your career, but it's really clear that you're just getting started. So why did you decide to write this book right now? Well, I felt like, especially during the pandemic, there was sort of a shift in me. As Elphaba would say in Wicked, something has changed within me. Something's not the same.

And I realized that it wasn't just me. It was, I felt like the whole world was feeling this sort of discomfort with who they are, what, what, what they got comfortable with. And, and so we, I started working with Jerry McCarter, my co-writer on this, and talking about – because there was a lot of things converging, technology and culture and identity and entertainment and data. It was all colliding. And so I felt like, oh, wait, I grew up in the Silicon Valley in Palo Alto and came to L.A. to escape it, to do entertainment. And I was finding my cultural identity crisis.

And all this stuff was all colliding. And I was in a very unique position to tell what it felt like to be on the front lines during this change. And there's a lot more of younger generation and people who are older who are going through this similar thing right now. So I wanted a manual that I wish I had going through when I was chasing my biggest, most ambitious dreams and what the ups and downs would come with that. So hopefully this guides a little bit or gives you a little comfort in your journey for whatever you're chasing or if you're in the middle of your chase to just keep going.

Well, I mean, I was surprised in reading the book to see that it's so much more than just like a telling of your life story and even beyond just this how-to guide for nurturing creativity and navigating Hollywood. I was surprised to find that it's also in many ways a leadership book. And I think above all else, it feels like a love letter to so many people and places. And I want to sort of, I guess, break down each part of that.

So if we could talk, I guess, about the leadership book part of it. Throughout, you have sort of these little sidebars where you offer insights into how you think about life and creativity. And I'm not a Hollywood director, and I found myself writing down a lot of little nuggets for myself to come to later, things like creativity thrives on obstacles. And I'm just curious if your intention was for people to gain sort of these like actionable tips from your own experience that you mentioned sort of a guide, but very specific things that they could write down and turn to later.

Yeah. I think some of my, the biggest lessons of my life have been from actually making movies or trying to get an idea from nothing into a reality of something. And not just on my own, because making movies isn't a singular person's journey. It is, I have hundreds of people that I have to communicate with and be comfortable communicating with and be comfortable leading in certain ways and finding how to use their creativity and their storytelling skills to build. Because I think the magic of movies is when we create something that neither of us could

create separately, that we had to find each other to build together. So it sort of came naturally in the storytelling of it. I grew up in a big family. I'm the youngest of five and my parents have a Chinese restaurant in the Bay Area called Chef Chu's and it's still there 53 years later. And I watched their leadership. I watched them not just lead, it wasn't just running a business, my dad and my mom, and not just running our family, which was a whole thing in itself. But it was also leading a community in the 80s. And for them in the 70s, when they started this restaurant as one of the first Chinese families in this community, maybe the first Chinese family

that a lot of people in the community would meet and eat food at and host. And so I just think I just watch them a lot. And I think those are the skill sets that I found that were the most compelling to keep me going, I guess, through my journey. And I feel like, as I mentioned, for me, definitely. And I think there's so many things that will be relatable for people no matter where they are in their journey or what sort of work they do, which is really cool. I think one of the hardest ones of that is like, you know, leading is not glamorous. We're not on the red carpet most of the time. I'm not doing, you know, interviews most of the time. I'm usually alone in the dark in my room or in the edit suite with my editor or on set. And everyone's whispering behind your back about, oh, what decision you just made,

or an actor doesn't agree with the thing, or they're saying something that you can't, seems like a good idea, but that's not the way you planned it. It's like all those little struggles. Also wanted to put in the book just to make sure that you knew that when you're going through your day, it doesn't feel glamorous. It doesn't, but that's actually the job that the secret is that it's like not actually magic. It's grit and survival and moving forward and getting through. So hopefully those little stories also help get people through those things. It's really a treasure trove of do's and don'ts. And I feel like you also acknowledge how in many ways your story is very much just your

own and singular and unique. So I'm curious what you hope young creatives get from reading the book. Well, when I first got into the business, I had just come out of college. So I was really, I felt very lucky. You know, Steven Spielberg saw my short film and I got all these like Hollywood deals. But I actually hadn't, I didn't make a movie for five years or six years until I got my first movie. And I think those years are very, I think those are hard. And when you get through that, you know, when you won the lottery, when you're like, get lucky

and are starting your business, most of the time, I think a lot of people feel the imposter syndrome. I felt even more so like, oh, I just, I got really, really lucky. And so you try to keep buying more lottery tickets, but actually you need to spend that time learning the craft that you are,

that you've been rewarded for the potential of having. And that took some time to realize for myself of like, oh, no, I need to learn this craft. And actually, there's a good and bad part of it. I felt like I needed to prove myself. And proving yourself can be a motivating factor. And I still feel like that on days. But there was a certain point after 10 years of doing that, after doing seven movies, doing And proving yourself can be a motivating factor. And I still feel like that on days. But there was a certain point after 10 years of doing that, after doing seven movies, doing many red carpets, doing many interviews, that I still didn't feel good enough.

But I remember making Now You See Me 2. And I was on set with all these great actors, Woody Harrelson, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman and Mark Ruffalo. And I could almost feel hitting those 10,000 hours. Like there was just like a surrender. Like I did, I was working, these great people were amazing. And I felt like, oh, I can hang with them. And I remember that switch, that light bulb switch in my head of being like, then why am I here right now? Like, what am I contributing to this movie that only I can do? And what do I actually want to say with this?

And I didn't have a full answer. And I think that completely shifted of, okay, what do I want to say? If I actually do belong here, if I am a filmmaker, like, I finally can call myself an artist and not wait for someone else to call me that I can call myself a storyteller. I can call myself a director. Then what is it that you really want to say and do? And that was that, that woke me up. And that was one of the hardest things to do. Because it's not just about like, oh, I'm proud of myself. I know who I am. Of course, you know who you are, and you can go do your thing. But like, to, to really find who you are, you have to put yourself through the fire. You have to actually like go to your wounds and go to the thing that scares you most and confront that first. And if you're an artist, that means maybe doing it publicly as well. And that,

that, that is terrifying. So that's almost where the journey begins, not where it ends. Interesting. At that 10,000 hour moment is when you feel like it starts to get, it gets exciting. Yeah, yeah. And you suggested this just a moment ago, that the book is really talking so deeply about failure and sort of thinking about survival. And you see in the book sort of how your thoughts about this evolve. And I'm curious how your thinking of this has changed and how you embrace failure now that you have been through the fire, as you say. Yeah. I mean, I look back at like my younger self starting in the business. I look at myself even just like seven years ago. And I have empathy for that person still, because

I've changed a lot in those seven years. I mean, kids will change you immediately, but I have empathy for that person because I felt a long time, I felt guilty for not complaining. You know, I was taught in my family, never complain, never complain. You just do your work. That's what my parents as immigrants who came to this country, they're like, America's the greatest place, but you got to just like fit in and, and, and, and do hard work and you will accomplish anything you want. And I believe that fully. And I'm so glad I got taught that because that's what I did. Never complain. And I think that gave me a lot of advantages that I didn't have to be, um, I wasn't chained down by, uh by resentment or anger. I just, I actually believed that I could

just keep doing this. And I, but I don't blame that kid for feeling that because when you're not in a position of power, it is hard to complain because you have no power to complain. No one listens to you anyway. And so I have empathy for that. And I'm glad that I kept going as that person. Now, as a little further down that journey, when you have power, I think that's also the other switch that changes. It's like, wait, I couldn't complain then, but I need to complain now. Not just complain, but do stuff to change it. I'm in a position where you have a privilege to speak out and make action. And so that's where, and that's a hard thing to take on because it's scary and it's a lot of responsibility and you know you're going on the front lines and are going to get attacked, but you're just going to go do it. And so when I think of my journey in those sort of chapters, I find it a great privilege to be on the front lines. I find great gratitude to be trying to make change at this moment in our culture and history when we're all trying to find our story.

I feel like we've taken down the mystery of the author. Everyone's a creator. So who are we as a people, as America, as the world? What do we stand for? What mistakes have we made? And what is the new story? And I'm a storyteller at this moment. And I've gone through some shit.

And so I feel very privileged to be here and to do that stuff. And it's not easy. So I guess when you're asking about failures and stuff i i feel like this is the line of work we're in this is this is the service we've decided to take and um and we're all going to learn together and so let's like link arms and and go that's the only way i can think about too honestly to think to you know i don't write about this stuff i don't but it's just we are creators so the only way I can think of it, too, honestly, to think, you know, I don't write about this stuff. I don't. It's just we are creators.

So the only thing we can do is just keep creating. And hopefully there's other people in this community that can change certain laws or make certain other things, changes, or journalists that write about it and put it out into the spotlight for the world to see. But for us, we make. And so that's why I stay focused on. I mean, and I think what's really compelling to this idea of like people from different spaces who can also contribute in different some of the ways you're describing is that in the book, you sort of make this parallel between your own story and the story of your parents who are not in the entertainment industry and are in the restaurant business, the hospitality industry and and how they sort of experience some of these same, you know, you talk about their failures and their triumphs and how it fueled them. And so I think, you know, one thing too, that's also interesting about this book is that you end your TED Talk, notably with love is the most important thing we can give to this planet. And the book is very much a love letter to many things, to technology, Silicon Valley, Steve Jobs, filmmaking, and I think above all, your family and your

parents. And so I'm curious to hear a little bit from you also about how you think about love and the way that it influences the work you do. How does it, how did it factor into writing the book? Let's maybe start there. lot of pessimism and a lot of hate because that's easy. It's easy. Love is harder. And I, again, I feel very privileged to have grown up in a family with a lot of love. So I know the value of that. And so Hollywood is also a very cynical place. But also movies, stories are what set the vision or what set the horizon for all of us. It's what inspired me to go into storytelling. It's why we go to Disneyland, frankly. It reminds us of our childhood.

It reminds us of a time. It's why we drink a Coke because we had a Coke when we were in the garage with our moms or dads or whoever. I think that that love is in every single story because it is the conduit for which we connect to others. And so I think I got into the storytelling business because I had an abundance of love given to me. And I felt maybe my cup runneth over. And I wanted to share more in that. That doesn't mean that's easy. And it doesn't mean that I didn't evolve through that. But I think that was the most pure moment. I also felt like I found that the camera and the camera helped hide me too. Because it's a mask. You know,

everyone loves you when you have a camera in your hand. Everyone wants to invite you over and get interviewed or whatever. Like, it gave me a reason to talk difficult love can be, even to my family, especially writing about my family, because my family can be frustrating at the same time. But I think writing this book helped me, one, understand that I can't change my parents, as many of us know that. I've tried many times. I've tried to clean their garage, and it always gets messy again. I've tried to make them remember their Wi-Fi password. They'll never remember it.

So I'll remember it for them. Fine, fine, fine. But I think I have a lot of learning about their journey gave me so much love, extra love for them, because leaving a country to come over to another country with nothing to start a family, to give us every opportunity and to let us go run away and be storytellers.

Like that is so rockstar and so courageous. I know now with kids, I don't know if I could do that. I could not leave everything here, even if I hated this country and walked away. Like, I don't know. I don't think I could do that. I could not leave everything here, even if I hated this country and walked away. Like, I don't know. I don't think I could do that. So I respect them so deeply now, especially as an adult, when I look back and know how that journey could go. So I also have a lot more empathy of, you know, we talk about stories they've told us and they keep the stories keep changing. I didn't know how to like, and I get frustrated like just tell me the truth and they're like this is the truth and it's like well it could have gone that way and you're like ah and that as someone who's growing and trying to put all my life in

sort of categories it really doesn't fit that for me and I think I learned to understand that you know we do actually have a language barrier even though I don't see that and feel that because we talk and there is a language barrier still that when I show them my movie, I think they're watching my movie. They're laughing at the right parts. But I remember showing it, we premiered in China and I brought my parents and their subtitles in Chinese

and my dad watched the movie and his eyes lit up. He's like, oh, I love your movie. I'm like, what? You've watched my movie eight times. What are you talking about? He's like, oh, no, no, I get all the things. I'm like, so you've been watching this movie and not understanding half the words? He's like, no, I get it.

So I just also like there's also like details that connect with my parents. I find that now when I have my kids, um, I look at my daughter, I don't try to fix my mom, but I see her wounds and I try to make sure that my daughter, um, has the comfort and the love that my mom gave me to heal some of those wounds that maybe she didn't have. Um, so I, I try to focus my, my attention a little bit forward in that, but I'm still figuring it out. I have no idea. Well, that's beautiful. I mean, I feel like there's so many things you can relate to when it comes to families and the things that you experience in your family, no matter what your background is.

And I openly wept at the end of your book, I will say. And I think hearing your relationship with your parents, it's beautiful. And I'd love to move now to Wicked. And I think you get to Wicked at the very, very end of You Finder. So in many ways, where the book ends is where your life is picking up at this very moment. And it's clear that directing this film has been a lifetime in the making for you. So what does it mean what does it meant to you? What does it mean to you to helm this project? Well, one, I am a, I'm a fan of Wicked. I saw Wicked in San Francisco at the Kern Theater

before it ever went to Broadway. So I was in the same room with all the creators on the earliest days and I had no idea. My mom and dad would take us to the city every weekend to see shows when I was growing up. Opera season, ballet season, or musical season. And I was at college. It was like my freshman year.

And so they're like, hey, there's a new Stephen Schwartz musical. You should come see it. And so my mom and I went. So it was like old times again with us. And I watched the musical, and I was just blown away. Even in that form, even in that rough form. I think they had cut songs after that and stuff. But even that work form, I was so moved by this witch who isn't a witch at all, who is seen as different because she's green, who feels out of place, has a narrative set on top of her and has to like overcome that,

has to ascend above that. And taking this, the most American fairy tale, Wizard of Oz, maybe other than Star Wars, the Wizard of Oz and flipping it in a new perspective to me was like so compelling as a young person to watch that. So for 20 years, I was like, this needs to be a movie. I, but never thought that they would ever hire me to make that movie. So, but 20 years later, it did come. And I'm really grateful. It's a beautiful story. And especially at this moment, there feels like an urgency to tell this story in the most, again, American fairy tale,

at the time when America's going through our own identity crisis, at the same time that cinema itself is going through its own survival crisis, at the same time that musicals are the most American genre of cinema being sort of reinvented and refound again right now. To me, exploring those ideas and identity through all of that,

through at this moment is, is, was, is, is a moment I could not pass up. So. And, and, and in fact, you, I think you've said that you're glad it took you so long to get to the Emerald city. So I think beyond just even this moment, it sounds like for a cultural moment that there's something personal for you that that makes this this moment better for you to direct this film than any other. Can you share more about that? Yeah. Some people say that like, oh, John, what's the movie that you always wanted to do? And if that were the I would probably say Wicked, you know, how many years ago I wrote it down on a piece of paper. However, you don't get the luxury of choosing whatever story you want to tell, you get to tell.

Like, I think that's a misconception that, oh, I want to tell this story. I'm going to go tell it. Just give me a camera. I'm going to, I actually think it's more spiritual than that. I think that the author and the idea, it's like a spiritual marriage, that you can have an idea. But if you don't give it, if it doesn't choose you too, then it goes nowhere. And so there is a wooing of an idea and exploration,

a curiosity of trying to understand it more and see if it grows somewhere. There's a dating period of an idea for wicked. That was like my dream girl. And I, and, but I could want it as much as I wanted to. But if it wasn't right and it wasn't right time and it wasn't the right moment that this planet wanted us to make it, then it would have never happened.

And so when those things start to happen, when I got the call, and it took me, I mean, I think every movie that I did led up to this point of Wicked. I had to do through step-up movies in order to learn how to, one, deal with a fan base that was on MySpace that really loved the step-up movies, how to work with dancers, how to find, discover all these other dancers, young dancers with such beautiful, different forms of poetry. I had to learn how to shoot that, how not to ruin their performances, how to understand the performance. I had to go be with Justin Bieber and do a Justin Bieber documentary in order to learn for myself how to, sometimes you don't have to cut around to everything. Sometimes reality and truth is without the author in the way and you just shoot. And sometimes you get to see how a kid going through this isn't meant to do that.

And so there's certain things I had to learn. G.I. Joe, I had to learn visual effects and working with a comic book crowd and a toy company and all those things leading up to Crazy Rich Asians about how to do the thing that's most scary to you about your culture identity. And then in the Heights in the same way and do it on the streets of Washington Heights all led to wicked. And so, yeah, I feel like every step got to this point and it chose me and we, I chose it. So I'd hope you get the results of that because I think it's, it's beautiful when we, when it all comes together. And now back to the episode. Well, obviously, Wicked is a deeply beloved story. The play, of course, was a smash hit.

And we actually, I'm going to start to bring in some questions from the audience because we have one from the author of a book called Finding Oz, where he tells the stories, Evan, who's a TED member, tells the story of how L. Frank Baum created the original novel, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. And he asks if your vision for the Wicked films goes back to the Baum novel at all for inspiration, either visually or in any way about the ideas behind the icons there. Yeah, absolutely. That is our main source of inspiration, other than the musical itself. That is that L. Frank Baum. I mean, even Elphaba is named Elphaba

because of L. Frank Baum. And we have lots of, we took characters from the novel, from the Denslow drawings that are in this movie, that are in Emerald City or along the way. You know, it's hard because it is sort of several different source material based off of the same thing.

L. Frank Baum's, of course, which, by the way, when I... There was a certain point where after Ariana got the got the role she sent me a gift and it's in this little box and it's a first edition first state version of Wizard of Oz and it's always in my office

I'm not even allowed to open it more than 45 degrees but it smells like old man the fonts, the style, the Denzel style all is a part of it and even like some of l frank bomb's history which you know he has a complicated history um he one of his jobs one of his first jobs was to raise sort of fancy chickens um to breed them and sell them and so we uh there's a there's an animal band in one of our scenes and so i wanted these fancy chickens to be part of that uh animal band so if you see that uh you know that's my little nod to frank baum but at the same time we are we are uh infiltrating his vision of america a little bit. We are playing with the idea of what a hero looks like and how story is used.

But yeah, I think that's the fun part of it. Well, Emma asked, what was the most challenging aspect of adapting this for the screen? The most challenging part? Well, the pure scope of it was really challenging beyond like the mental strain that it takes to decide how to make a show, which has some plot holes in it and is fairly long on Broadway. And making the decision to split into two was very, very difficult. But it also was such a, a very natural choice. Like we had no choice other than that because we could not fit it.

It could not fit. It would be overly bloated movie with too many things or, or, or we would cut it down to a point where it wouldn't be wicked, the musical. And that's, that's the reality of it. The challenge, though, from there was how do you make one movie as emotionally and satisfying as possible so it doesn't feel like half a movie? And that was actually easier than I thought, because once you cut it out and then you track your characters, and we know story architecture very well,

that we could just load it in on how to make defying gravity the thing you're waiting for the whole movie. You have to start with Wizard and I to know her wants and her needs, and you have to root for this character. Maybe you have to know more about this character in order to really want this for her. You have to see her maybe have a couple wins, have a couple, you have to have certain things and turns in order to make defying gravity the moment you're waiting for the moment of defiance, the moments of surrender, she doesn't have to prove herself. So some of that architecture was was was was tough, but making that decision to split was was difficult. But I think in the end of the day, it was making sure that we I made my

made my younger self proud, that this is both wicked, but the cinema version of it. That's the crystallized cinema version. And it's not the show, but it is the show. That's a difficult change. We did it with Crazy Rich Asians where people were like, oh, that's like the book. And you're like, if you actually look at the plotting, it's not a lot like the book, but it feels like the book. And whenever we interpret something, that's what we try to get the feel of, what it felt like to watch it and experience it and with all the things and protect the things, but be a different experience so they can all live together. You can still watch Wicked the show and Wicked the movie and feel like they're two sort of separate experiences. And with the two installments being released about a year apart, will there be, I guess guess a big distinction between the way the films will feel

for the the audience as well i think so i think so i mean in the show the um they grow really they grow in different ways and the tone shifts as well um it's more it's a little it's it's a different type of tone it's it's it's sort of choices and consequences and consequences get uh get complicated. And when you think about either the, the two installments as a whole or just what's what's to come in November and what people will get out of this versus what they got out of the stage performance, what is your, your big hope there? Well, what we always said, it's, it's about the girls, stupid.

These two women, Elphaba and Galinda. we don't find cynthia rivo and ariana grande we don't have a movie and we knew that these two uh everyone had to audition so first of all imagine them coming into audition and having to sing for us to audition uh they had to act and do all the things and they jumped through every hoop and every hoop and everyone we saw from no namers to namers that uh they were the most interesting people they're the ones that you felt like it wasn't there were so many great talent no doubt everyone could have done it but there's that there is a connection when you know this is the one for this particular story of this time of this moment those

two to those two women and i think that relationship is real how they bond how so different they are and yet how how much they share in um how much they share in their ambition and in their love for the planet there's two different ways of going at it. And I think people will feel that. I think everyone will be an Elphaba or Galinda or some of us or all of them together. So I'm really excited about that, to be honest. It's awesome.

Well, I know technology and you've been a long TED attendee or a TED speaker. We're thrilled to have you here speaking with us today. And tech is such a big part of the type of ideas we think about in our space. And you've long celebrated the way tech can support creativity and enhance storytelling, especially in your industry. And I'm curious, when you see what's happening out there right now with advancements in tech, specifically in AI, What do you think are the opportunities it could present for the future of visual storymaking and how you think

about the work that you've even done just now with Wicked? I think AI is a very broad word for many things that are changing our whole existence. And I love, I love technology. So I've, I've tried to follow along. It's hard to keep up because it's changing every four days. Yeah, exactly. Every hour on the hour. But I'll tell you what it's, what you can't do is ignore something like this. And, and, and, and, you know, creativity is yes, a small section of what AI is going to change in this world. But I think it's the realm that we never thought computers were ever going to say, okay, what is creativity? Okay, what is your message? What is your message that's so unique?

It's in a weird way, I feel like it's the same when Instagram had filters or something or when camera phones hit every phone that you're like, oh, wow, everyone has a great camera now. He's like, the barrier isn't having a great camera. And actually every camera can use software

to fix the lighting. So it's not even about lighting anymore. It's maybe not even about composition because you can change everything. So what is it that all goes together what you're trying to say? So like an Instagram photo is an Instagram photo, but art photographs is something that we choose

of what is going to be art in that moment. And so it changes the values of things. And I think for AI in our creative space, it's going to change the value of maybe production value. Like having a giant set may not be the thing that wows people anymore in the same way that when you go see a Marvel movie, a big giant planet flying through is not as compelling as it was when we saw it in Star Wars.

It doesn't mean it's not amazing. It just means, it just, if you can pay for it and get done, then whatever, like, okay, so what? So what? So what are you saying? And I think that that's the onus on us. I believe in our human capacity to outrun,

to use creativity, to break rules or expectations of what you think is next. That's literally our job. So I believe that humans can and will do that continuously. Now, I also think there's some great tools with AI. I mean, technology has always been a great tool. I was there for when it went from analog to digital, from linear to nonlinear. I mean, we were all, a lot of us were there to feel that shift. And, and yes, it was uncomfortable at first, but then changed everything and democratized the whole process. So I'm excited to see, there'll probably be an AI category. Some 14 year old

kid will make a full on the Snow White Snow White of AI movies. That won't be my category, but I'm sure that person will do their thing. And just like electronic music has its own category of stuff, I really believe all of that. But I do also think like for me, I'm sure I'll use it in some way. I don't know exactly how yet. I've been playing with it though to see, just to know. I think in order to really figure out what the boundaries of it should be, we have to understand it. And so it's the wild, wild west right now. And I think that, you know, legislatively, we need to do, we should protect intellectual rights, and we should do that. I just don't think those buttons and the levers sort of work that fast anymore. And I'm not sure we have

the political leaders who understand technology like that anymore. So again, as a creator, since I'm not a politician, the only thing I can do is understand it so I can make better decisions of how to use it or how to help inform people of where the issues are with this. And we're getting into this just a little bit now, but I guess on the flip, what is it that scares you about it if there are things that scare you? I'm scared that it's a lot of immense amount of power. When you first get into this business and you get the microphone, there's a fantasy to that. I mean, the same thing with Twitter, I guess, that you have the microphone, you could say something and you're not a kid anymore. The moment you get that microphone, the world comes after you, or you influence the world

in whatever place you're at in your life. That is a powerful, powerful tool. We're putting a Mack truck in the hands of whoever. And not everyone understands the grammar of audiovisual storytelling or what you have in your hand when you're doing it. So like a baby rattlesnake, it usually puts the most poison on and more than an adult rattlesnake because it just doesn't know. And so I am scared for someone who gets in their hands and doesn't know what they're doing, but not necessarily bad, even bad intentions, but that they spread something or do something because it seems kind of funny or whatever. And it causes real damage to people's lives. So that's what I'm scared about. I'm not scared about, I mean,

there's jobs that are going to be lost. I feel like technology does that often. And that's a cycle that we go through. And I believe in people to figure out how to do that. We lost lab workers when we didn't make film, shoot film anymore, but we gained DITs and we gained digital edit houses and things like that. And it's not an easy process,

but there is a natural flow to those kinds of things. So yeah, I'm also scared that AI creates out of this pool of ideas that have been set in the soup already. And we have so much more to add to that soup. We have so much more ingredients to add. And so that's why I think right now is like an urgent time to make, make, make, make, make.

Because this AI is reading the soup. And we've only had certain perspectives in that soup. And for us to get in there and say, this is also beautiful. This is also a hero. This is also what you don't know. This is what makes my parents funny. Not what you think my parents are funny talking or anything. It's this is what makes them funny.

Like we have to add more to the soup. So I get worried about we have a short window to flood the gates with as much our human ideas and perspectives so that when the soup is going to be used in the future, that it has full context. Well, we have a flood of questions coming in from our audience so i want to make sure that we get to a bunch of them so i'm going to start to integrate more of those into our conversation here so uh tony is curious about how you approach working with actors um it's it's it i work with actors

in the same way that i work with my production designer, with my costume designer, with my editor, with my cinematographer. We are a shared creative authors. And again, not all directors maybe do this and all power to them because they make amazing movies. But for me, I love the process of working together on something. I, of course, have a vision. If I were to sit down, I could draw out every frame of my movie.

Two seconds. But if I can draw it out in my bedroom, that's not the best movie that's going to be made. So that said, working with an actor, I sit down and I give them, I say, you know, okay, we're going to be partners in this. Here's what I need from you. I need you to show up on time. I need you to hear the character. Here's how I see the characters. And I'm open to discuss what that is. But we sort of need to be on the same, in the same planet, same universe. Because we're going to go through this. And by the way, it doesn't mean we have to agree on anything, because our relationship to be able to have real, honest conversations is a part of this partnership.

So I should be able to call you and I will say this to them. I said, I should be able to call you and say, Hey, why are you late every day? If I can't say that to you, then we're not going to be great partners. And when you say that up front, it takes a lot of the stuff off the table because I can call them about anything. I can say, Hey, you were a little distracted or like, Hey, I know that you want to do this thing tomorrow. Here's how I see this part of the thing. I will, let's shoot your version, but can you do me a solid and let's shoot my version as well.

And I promise in the edit room, I will protect us whatever's best for the movie because we don't know all the pieces we're making for the movie yet, but we will know the context later as the movie comes together and it will tell us which the right answer is. I have to have those conversations. I'm not like, oh, Dwayne Johnson, you're the best. What do you want to do? I'm not like that. And I'm not like, Dwayne, get over here and just move your head and blink your eye. They're not going to take that either. So it's a lot more work to have a relationship like that. But I kind of find the joy of my job in those kind of trying to solve that puzzle together. I feel like that's another great leadership tip that can be applied anywhere, right? That it feels useful.

Yeah, that's why I write in my book. It's a work in process, always. So it's just process. Creativity is not a light bulb, I think I say in the book, that you can't just switch it on. Every day, it's a rehearsal. So you're gathering ideas every day and putting it in your Dropbox folders or putting it in your journals or whatever. So when I need to come up with an idea, I'm not going to wait for God to give me some amazing idea. I was like, that could happen. But, but, but I'm going to go back to my, what I, my reps, what I do every day. And I'm going to say, Hey,

what characters do I find interesting? Oh yeah. Does that attach to this? No, maybe. No, it doesn't, but it sparked something and I can go there. Like we are just, we are, we are information in our heads and trying to find a way. So the more prompts we have for ourselves maybe uh get us to our idea quicker um well so i sort of along these same lines um two asks how do you find inspiration and build up your creativity um that's a good question because when you're making a movie you're you're making something every day and you're being creative, but you're in a very specific lane. So it's really hard to see outside your lane.

And that's probably the most difficult thing I try to, and the, you know, scrolling on TikTok, I wouldn't say, I mean, sometimes that'll spur something. I mean, it's definitely a lot of things you get to see really quickly. So I don't know the answer to that right now for me in my process. My family, because I get to live through, you know, six other lives in my household. Is that right? I don't know. Yeah. Six of it. And seven, if you count the one in the oven. I try to, and actually really having kids, I talk to them every night and we ask them, you know, what kind of thing they did for somebody, what was the kind of thing that was done for them. And we also ask them, do you have any questions for us? And those moments are

like fascinating because they ask the most interesting questions. And so I try to keep aware, I guess, of the world that way for me right now. Usually I just, I do journal or not even, I don't even know if I call it journaling. I put it, I collect every time I see something, especially with a phone, it's easy. I take a picture of it. I see an article, I take a picture of it. I screen grab it and I put it in these folders and i have a character folder a scenario folder a relationships folder a you know visual inspiration folder um just colors um so i have all these different things i used to put it in a like a um like a spiral and i just taped them in but that i got lost that a long time ago now Now I have an actual Dropbox folder that I put all

this stuff in. I call it my pantry. Your pantry. Oh, as a throwback to your parents there, right? Exactly. Exactly. An ode to your parents. Well, we have a lot of people who are really also very curious about how you stay true to yourself, which feels really connected to this and thinking about your family and how they factor into your creative process. But how do you manage to stay true to yourself in an ever-evolving space? And especially when it comes to creative work.

Yeah, that's a really hard question because I struggle with that all the time. When you're making a movie, you have, you have your, like your laser vision. That's how you lead hundreds and hundreds of people. And yet,

you have to have room to keep discovering. I mean, I came up with a line yesterday for the movie and we locked our movie last Friday. So I can't put it in and it's driving me crazy. The last time I was like, how could I, could I slip it in? Well, maybe I'll do it in movie too. I can't put it in and it's driving me crazy the last time I put it in. Because I'm like, how could I? Could I slip it in? Or maybe I'll do it in movie two. I don't know. I don't know the answer to how to keep, because there's a lot of stuff coming at you. I will say though,

talking about process is actually really helpful. Like talking about it right now is really helpful for me. I talk about working every time I, you know, I work on the script and I work with a writer on the script and I have a vision for it and I'm trying to get the writer closer to my vision. It's very frustrating, but the writer has something to bring to it.

And when we finally get there, I'm like exhausted. And then the actor comes in and then the actor comes in and they have ideas on the script. And I'm like, no, no, no, I just got this perfect. And the way they say a line isn't the way, but actually it's actually okay. And then we get that just right.

And we do versions and we shoot all this stuff. And then the editor cuts it together. And I'm like, that's not a movie. Oh my gosh, I'm starting over again. And then I'm like, no, no, no, just move this around here. But then he does some things that are really great. And then we find this thing to get. And then the composer comes in and changes all this music. And you're like, no, no, just move this around here. But then he does some things that are really great. And then we find this thing to get. And then the composer comes in and changes all this music.

And you're like, no. I mean, it is a constant erasing. And I feel like I'm one of those, I think of those monks that like have the sand and the art. And then they blow and the wind blows it away the next day. And you have to be okay with that. Like there is beauty in the temporary brilliant idea. But if you do it every day, then it's an average of the amount of creativity and free spirit that you give to each of those days. It's sort of like you get a little inch every time.

And hopefully it accumulates. So I think every, I think it's hard because I, you, you can't, I can't distill it. It's just about the practice of loving the process of building and destroying and building and destroying. And that's not a glamorous way to see it, but we all know instinctively that's how our life is, no matter how many people look at us and are like, wow, you host this and you host that. And you're like, yeah, but I had to do a lot of this other, but I won't talk about that. But, but as creators, as we are all creators,

like we know that it's just the average of, of things that we just get through every day. So that's what I would try to think about it. Yeah. Well, I'm definitely going to write down, there's beauty in the temporary brilliant moment when I get off of this call with you. So Adnan has a question about representation,

which is something that we know has been really important to you and the work that you do and the type of stories that you tell and how you tell them. And so how, when you think about representation and the way that the wins we've had, the accomplishments we've made as a society, what is, how do you know that we've arrived? I guess, when do you know that the work is done? When is the work done? I mean, I don't know that the work is done? When is the work done? I mean, I don't know.

I don't know if that's possible to be fully done with the work. Because if you're representing, I mean, the world is so big and we have so many things that we don't see, so many blind spots. Like, maybe that's the whole beauty of being human. It's like it's a constant opening our eyes. Like we're always, we are born, but like light is coming in every ounce until it's not. And I, and so I don't, I don't know that if there's an end game other than that,

the more we, we know, the more we can relish in this life. And I, so from, for me personally, you know, we're, we're, we're in baby steps. We're in the movie business, which is, is, it has a certain value to it because there's giant corporations behind a movie and they promote ideas. They promote beauty. They promote what hero looks like. They promote how you should live or what you aspire to be like. So it has a weight to it. And so I play in that game because I was affected by the weight of movies. It spurred my creativity. It gave me a purpose. It gave me another life in my head. And it's for some reason something that I can do. I just happen to connect the dots on some of those things. And so when I look at that value of that space that movies provide, and I look at who I am, and what kind of space I take up in that space, and how I want to live my life, I think about, now I think about a lot

of my children, how to build the canvas for them to live in the America that I was always promised, that I actually believed in. And maybe some of it was there and some of it was not, but I would love to create the canvas that is more there than was before, which is, I think, the whole idea of America is this promise and this idea that we're always going towards. So I think that's part of my role as a storyteller in the movie business is to sustain that. Now, I can do it many ways. I can be a pessimistic and knock on all the faults of America, or I feel like I'm best at serving as a celebration of

the capacity of human beings and the capacity of our love and the capacity of human beings and the capacity of our love and the capacity of our relationships, not naivete, but the capacity to get through. And that light is light and it's beautiful and it feels so good and joy is real and it's deep and it's fun and will make you smile and will make you cry.

And it is not homework. I think the heart of it all is like, I don't want my movie to be homework. I want it to be entertainment. Like that's what got me in. I want that. But at the same time, I can make beauty something that maybe Hollywood hasn't seen.

I can make a hero that Hollywood hasn't seen and make it just as exciting as they did in those old musicals uh when fred astaire or any of those people went through like i think that's valuable and i don't have to be loud about it i don't have to make a huge thing about it other people can do that and that's great fine but for me like i know that's how i can specifically take the space. And so I'm laser focused on making the most entertaining pieces of story I can. But I'm not shy in infusing it with how I see the world because I know it's real. I do have a valuable vision because I 100% know that it is real. The world that we can live in is real. I've lived in it. I've seen it. And I've seen the world fight back against what that is, but I've

seen it and it's glorious. And so if I can give people a little glimpse of that, hopefully other people can believe that as well and do their part in getting us there too. Well, Shreya is an aspiring filmmaker and she would love your advice for somebody who's interested in moving towards this career but hasn't already started in that space Someone who isn't in this career but is moving into this space

is that what you're saying? Okay, it is a tough time to be in this space and by this space I don't know what you mean however I will say I will tell you what I think as a kid I found a kid, I found a camera and I found editing, but I was a storyteller at heart. Those were the tools I used, but deep

down, I was surrounded by storytellers. My dad and my mom, who were hosts of this thing, they listened to stories and they told stories back. And so I think we are, when you're in love with creativity, you are a storyteller. That is your craft, storytelling. What medium in which you use your craft is your choice and maybe your discovery over time. So I can do movies just so happen to be the thing I loved and wanted and happened to work for me. But if I didn't, I would be doing this in commercials. Or if I didn't get it, I would be doing this in wedding videos and bar mitzvah videos, which I did in high school.

So the itch is scratched from different ways of storytelling. So I would be, one, I would say, you know, movies are one thing, but it is a specific, very specific art. Independent movies versus studio movies are two very specific arts. Independent movies versus studio movies are two very specific arts. Streaming movies versus theatrical are two very different arts. Commercials, all these things. So I would keep your antennas open. I would work on your storytelling, which is making yourself emotionally available, getting to the core of what makes you tick and the hot takes on the world that you want out there from your own

personal perspective. That's the only thing that's going to be, that's the magnet that draws people to you. And two, I would be drawn to the things you love, whether it's drawing or painting or filmmaking, and I would go do those things, but I would always keep your antennas up. Maybe it's not directing. Maybe by directing, you found out, oh, sound is my thing. And you go tell your stories and sound. You know what? Costumes. I know costumes and I'm valuable and I can give value from that. So I'm going to go do that thing. You are an asset to be acquired. So whatever story, if you're a great story and storytelling is required in all of those to be great.

And I've seen it in all those great people that they are storytellers first. So just keep your antennas open as you're on your journey. Pick the journey and go, but keep your antennas open. Don't get stuck because you will find your way through there. Well, as we wind down, I know everyone on the call is curious about what is next for you. And Gordon asked us in the, I think, the most interesting way. He says, after making Wicked, what project will take you the next 20 years to fulfill? Definitely my kids, definitely my kids, but I feel like all the great storytellers, Walt Disney,

and, and even the Pixar, when Pixar was at its like peak, although some would argue it's pretty good right now, but when Pixar was at its peak with Toy Story and Fighting Nemo and all those, they were all new parents or had young kids. I've seen it in other filmmakers. And it doesn't mean that that's required, but I tell myself this because I think my best years are yet to come because I'm watching these children get the building blocks for life.

And I'm learning. I'm learning so much. I'm learning so much what makes a human tick. And that's the secret that I've been trying to figure out my whole life as a storyteller. But I get to witness it now. And I feel so much empathy towards children now. I can work with children better now because I feel them. So I'm hoping that through this,

I will discover what the new temporary art that I will make and that I will surrender to what I'm meant to do when I'm meant to do it. But I will work my hardest and do my best at what I have to do every day presently. Well, as a parent to two small children myself, I really appreciate that. And thank you so much for everything you've shared with us today, John, and taking the time to chat with us.

Your wisdom has been so meaningful. The comments have been glowing of all the things you've shared and very appreciative. So thank you, John. Thanks, everyone. Support for this show comes from Airbnb. If you know me, you know I love staying in Airbnbs when I travel. They make my family feel most at home when we're away from home. As we settled down at our Airbnb during a recent vacation to Palm Springs, I pictured my own home sitting empty. Wouldn't it be smart and better put to use

welcoming a family like mine by hosting it on Airbnb? It feels like the practical thing to do, and with the extra income, I could save up for renovations to make the space even more inviting for ourselves and for future guests. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host.

That was John M. Chu in conversation with Whitney Pennington-Rogers at a TED membership event in 2024. If you're curious about TED's curation, find out more at ted.com slash curation guidelines. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Autumn Thompson, and Alejandra Salazar. It was mixed by Christopher Fazi Bogan. Additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balarezo.

I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet. Thanks for listening. Looking for a fun challenge to share with your friends and family? TED now has games designed to keep your mind sharp while having fun. Visit TED.com slash games to explore the joy and wonder of TED Games.