Ten Minute Bible Talks Devotional Bible Study - Can Pastors Be Rich?: Guest Interview with Ben Kirby of Preachers ‘N Sneakers

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

Should pastors have $5,000 sneakers or $100,000 cars? Are big churches successful or just showy? Get answers to these questions and more in this discussion between https://www.thecrossingchurch.com/staff/keith-simon/ (Pastor Keith Simon) and Ben Kirby of https://preachersnsneakers.com/ (Preachers ‘N Sneakers). Interested in more content like this? Scroll down for more resources and related episodes, including https://www.thecrossingchurch.com/podcasts/what-does-jesus-say-about-stuff-and-money-who-is-jesus-mark-8-36/ (What Does Jesus Say About Stuff and Money?) and https://www.thecrossingchurch.com/podcasts/how-to-radically-change-your-life-learning-to-follow-jesus-luke-9-12-17/ (How to Radically Change Your Life). Like this content? Make sure to leave us a rating and share it with others, so others can find it too. Use #asktmbt to connect with us, ask questions, and suggest topics. We'd love to hear from you! To learn more, visit ourhttps://www.thecrossingchurch.com/ ( website) and follow us onhttps://www.facebook.com/TenMinuteBibleTalks ( Facebook),https://www.instagram.com/thecrossingcomo/ ( Instagram), andhttps://twitter.com/tmbtpodcast ( Twitter) @TheCrossingCOMO and @TenMinuteBibleTalks.  Your support makes TMBT possible. Ten Minute Bible Talks is a crowd-funded project. Join the TMBTeam to reach more people with the Bible. Give now.

Welcome to Tim Minna Bible Talks, where we connect the Bible to your life and the time it takes to get to work. My name is Patrick Miller. And I'm Keith Simon. Ben Kirby, the guy behind preachers and sneakers, is with us today. Ben, thanks for joining us. Hey, Keith, thanks for having me, man. So you were a guy with 400 Instagram followers, and all of a sudden you posted a worship leader with expensive shoes. I'm not even sure which ones they were.

And your whole account blew up. Tell us the story. What happened? Yeah, two years ago, I was sitting on my couch here in Dallas and noticed a worship leader on YouTube wearing a pair of Kanye's collaboration with Adidas. They call them Yeezys. And he was wearing a limited pair of Yeezys that I knew at the time were reselling for like $800 to $1,000. And like you said, I was an average nothing dude with maybe 400 followers. And I just made a video for my people that followed me, just trying to make them laugh and say, hey, did you guys know these shoes are worth that? that much and like how do I get on the payroll. And so I made a few videos like that. And then what it ended up turning into was me reposting pastors and worship leaders own pictures on their Instagrams and then juxtaposing the resale or market value price of those sneakers or streetwear or whatever right next to it. And it caused people to lose their mind. Yeah. In a lot of ways.

You got written up in Washington Post, lots of different big major media outlets started covering you and your Instagram went from 400 to, well, I don't know what it is today, but over a million followers, right? So on my personal Instagram account, I started making the videos, but then I created the Preachers and Sneakers account separately. And so I started from zero, and within four weeks, I had like 100,000 followers. Okay. Just doing that. And I think I've got maybe 200 and almost 270,000 followers now. And you've gotten a lot of feedback on this and people have been upset with you because of what you've done. Yes.

How does that make you feel? Did it kind of make you feel a little bit uncomfortable with the conversation that you've started? Are you okay with it? Yeah, at least for the first year, I went back and forth day by day because I would get consistent, angry feedback from Christians on one side that disapproved of what I was doing. And then I would also get feedback from other Christians on the other side telling me to keep going because it was so important and so helpful to a lot of different. conversations within Christian circles, that kind of thing. And also getting validation from atheists and agnostic people like, look, thanks for bringing this up because this type of thing is what I, what caused me to leave Christianity. And so it was a complex, messy deal. And I, the short of it is it didn't feel good. It didn't feel good to not be certain about if you, what you were doing was a good, inherent good thing or inherent bad thing because there was so many

mixed opinions about it. Eventually, you know, time passed. And I, I got some good counsel and advice from my community and counselors and all that kind of stuff. And now feel like the conversation is important, even though it was messy. People's feelings got hurt for sure. But I think it got people talking about the state of our modern church and how we do it. And some of the things we obsess about that may not be helpful or may just be a distraction. So two years later, I'm grateful to still be a part of it. Yeah, so I listened to the audiobook Preachers and Snakers, which you read.

I did. Which I think is awesome. Thanks for doing that. Thank you. I mean, I think it's awesome to hear the author read their own work. And you've got a real fun, informal style, which you write in. And, you know, I really enjoyed it. And then if you listen to the audio book, you get the Judith Smith interview at the end, which I re-listened to this morning because I just thought it was pretty interesting. I didn't know what I thought of Judah Smith beforehand.

I honestly kind of liked them a little better after listening to you guys go back and forth. But so anyway, you say in the book that you wanted to kind of start a conversation, at least I think that's what you're trying to do. What's the conversation you think that the church needs to have? Because you're a church member, right? I mean, you consider yourself a Christian. So this isn't, you're not trying to make fun of Christians. You're trying to have this kind of internal family conversation, right? I mean, I'm trying to achieve some of it through humor. So I, you know, as somebody that's within Christianity, I feel like it's okay for me to poke fun at some of the quirky things that we do. Sure.

Or some of the maybe ridiculous things that we do. But at first, I'll be honest, I wasn't trying to start a conversation. I was just, I noticed a thing. I made a comment about a thing through a video and I expected that to be it. And when it turned into this whole, like, there was all this content out there and all these other deep issues that got brought up because of the sneakers, it felt very quickly it realized, oh, this is not. it's just about the sneakers. This is about way much deeper things because people are really getting fired up about this. And so the conversation I think to have is it's based around a lot of different questions, but one, about the whole idea that you can get rich off of being just a preacher or a pastor using God's calling on your life through his ministry to make millions and millions of dollars. I think it's an interesting thing for us to question. Also, you know, the whole idea of

how we worship celebrities, even in Christian circles, is something that we need to evaluate. And then all, you know, back to like a personal audit of, is our presence on social media real and is it authentic? And also, is it causing others to stumble, to envy our lives, to feel anxiety and depression, all those kind of things. All of those type of questions got brought up by way of this account. And I can't claim to have had a strategy for all that to begin with, but that's what it's turned into now. And so I'm trying to see that through and get people to maybe re-evaluate how they view church, how they conduct themselves online and that kind of stuff. Yeah, having a conversation about consumerism, capitalism, celebrity, Christianity,

celebrity are huge in the culture, and that culture has infected the church, I guess you'd say, or at least come into contact with the church, and we now, as Christians, have to process, how do we think about all of this? Now, when you started seeing these pastors, worship leaders, others wearing these really expensive shoes, how did you know about it? Because, like, I'm wearing a pair of crocs right now. So, you know, I don't think I would have even recognized that they were a big deal. But you've got a history in shoes, right? Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why my account blew up at the beginning was because there was kind of a sticker shock moment there for a lot of people because many of us knew that they were cool looking dudes, preaching out there, doing it different,

looking hip, trying to look hip. And none of us really thought much about it. But once I started putting the price tax next to it, it caused people to contend with that idea. It's like, oh, How much is relevancy worth or how much is too much? And it's an imperfect number. I'm not saying that I've got the perfect number. I'm just saying that many people started having to contend with that. Because at a certain point for everybody, between here and the private jets, there's something that most rational people are willing to say, all right, that seems a little ridiculous. And it's different for people.

But with the sneakers, I was in the Marine Corps as an officer. This is very random and shouldn't be why I got into sneakers. But I was on deployment back in 2015. and I have a buddy that plays in the NBA, and he ended up gifting my wife and I a bunch of sneakers for my birthday. And I had never considered sneakers before that. But after that, when I got back from the deployment,

kind of saw all these sneakers and stuff that he'd given us, I got into it for whatever reason. Maybe it's because like the designs were cool, the colors and the collaborations were cool. And so I started, I've kind of got an obsessive personality. And so I started digging deep into sneaker Twitter and the whole culture and realized there was kind of an entrepreneurial piece to it,

too, where you could buy, or if you got lucky enough to buy limited sneakers, you could flip them for a profit, like an arbitrage opportunity. And so I had been into sneakers since about August of 2015, and this is March of 2019 when I started the account. So only had been into sneakers for four years or so. But once you're in that culture, it's pretty easy to recognize the more limited, more sought after sneakers. And so many people accuse me of spending all day and having nothing better to do than just to like research these guys. but it really took me like eight seconds per post to find out what these guys were wearing. So, yeah, it's random. And it, you know, I'm less into sneakers now just because I've got a wife and a kid and two dogs. And so it's less justifiable. But it's served me back then for sure.

Well, one reason that your book jumped out at me. I love to read. I'm not so much into Instagram. So that's where I came across you. Although I had heard of your account and how it was kind of getting some notoriety before that. But the reason it jumped out to me is my old. oldest son has gotten into sneakers. He just bought his first house and he has a sneaker room, which I indulously... That's usually how it goes. There's no like, there's no gradual, like, intro into sneakers. It's like a bottomless pit from the very beginning. We started getting all these boxes at our house and he was selling them, buying them and then marking him up and selling them. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay, whatever, dude. But we were in New York a couple years ago for a family vacation. And so we went to Flight Club, which you mentioned, which, you mentioned, which is a, is lined with some ordinary shoes, but then some very, very expensive shoes, like thousands

and thousands of dollars. Those are the ones behind the glass case, right? You've been there? Yeah, it's a cool place. It's a super cool place. Flight Club and stadium goods. There's a couple other kind of consignment shops like that where it's basically like a free museum for the shoes that you'll never, ever be able to buy. It's usually just like NBA players and musicians that come through there and pay. Yeah, it's kind of a tourist thing, though. If you're in the It is because there's shoes in there that are worth like, I mean, there's a couple, the last time I was in there, there was a pair that was worth over 50 grand, like the Nike Air Mags, and there was some Travis Scott, friends and family. People won't care. But there's some other sneakers that were worth like $35,000 to $50,000, which is just bananas to think about. Well, so I noticed in one of the Washington Post article that you had pointed out that Paula White had Stella McCartney shoes for $800, you know. And somebody like me wouldn't have realized that. But obviously these people are wearing these shoes to communicate something, right?

I mean, I would guess it's not just random. Some are. There's some message behind it. And you get at that a little bit in the book to wrestle with maybe it's called the prosperity gospel, the feel good, health, wealth, name it, claim it. Is that the tribe that you find that gets into the flashier dress and shoes and all are people in that prosperity gospel camp? Or do you find that some of the things you're wrestling with kind of,

flow into more mainstream evangelicalism. Yeah, I mean, the easiest stuff to point to is the prosperity gospel crew, because that's part of their whole brand, is that, look, God made me successful. He also can make you successful. And I'm guaranteed if you sow the seed, then he'll make you successful. So it makes sense that they would want to wear expensive stuff because they're telling people that you too could also have expensive stuff. But there's a whole range of people on my account.

Like there's the bona fide prosperity people that I have very little patience for, because it's just basically taking advantage of people in their time of need. And then there's kind of a more, like you said, modern feel good type of message, motivation, self-help type preacher out there that is connected with very high-level celebrities and business people and often are gifted with just immense amounts of really nice clothing. And so there's that group that wears it because they can just, they're gifted all this stuff. And so they can, I guess, also afford to not sell it. And so they wear it to look like the people they're trying to reach, I guess.

And then there's a few offhanded people that will get like one gift a year and they end up wearing it on stage. And sometimes they'll have a picture snap to them playing that kind of thing. So it ranges. But the takeaway is that your message, your clothing does send a message, even if you were intending a different message. And so you need to be at least wise about what you wear when you get on stage to preach about Jesus. As you tell your story, it sounds like the family you grew up. and kind of help shape the way you think about Christianity, about finances, about church. You say you're a homeschooled, Rustin, Louisiana, dad's a doctor, very generous.

And you tell a story about one of your pastors. I think his name's Charles. And he pulls up in something he newly purchased. Can you just tell us that story and how it affected how you think about finances in church? Yeah, that story was from like 25 years ago. I think, I was under 10 years old. And I put the story in there to illustrate the moment that I first had a question about this tension of which it was based on nothing, really, like this tension that like, hey, it seems like my parents donate to our church to the point where we can't go to if we want to go to or whatever.

And the pastor that works at this church just rolled up in a brand new Harley. And that was it. I don't condemn the guy and come to find out that he had never taken a salary from the church. He had all these other factors going on that I had no idea about. But the point still stood was that like, look, perception matters when you represent a spiritual leader. And I think many other people have had moments like that where they can't pinpoint why it feels weird to them, but it does. And I want people to dig into that. And so like the guy I mentioned the story is a family friend that I still love that has treated our family really, really generously. And

had extenuating circumstances that came to the Harley. Like, he literally didn't take any salary from the church. And so, but the point was still, like, as a young kid that had no context for anything or no understanding about how church finances really worked, I still felt the tension that, hey, guys that live, at least perceived live off of donations make me feel weird whenever they seem to be living in luxury, that kind of thing. Yeah. The things that have been to us as kids, we can't always think them through.

well because you said you were like 10 years old or something, right? And so you're just processing this as a 10 year old. And yet it had some effect on you and framed how you thought about church and money, right? Yeah. And I, my parents were super loving. And like you said, my dad's a family practice doc who retired a couple years ago and did try to over index on showing us like, hey, this is how you be generous. Like you're not generous for 10%. You're generous to the point where it actually causes some discomfort or it causes you to sacrifice some things. And I really appreciate that because they could have just taken us to Disney World every year, every time we asked for it. But instead, they said, hey, if we actually say we believe this Jesus and he calls us to a different standard in life,

here's how we do this practically. And so I really appreciated them displaying that in my life. So it seemed like when you were telling us this story, you almost seem a little bit uncomfortable because there's a sense in which you respect this pastor and you still have a relationship with him. At the same time, you're asking questions that probably aren't off limits, right? They're legitimate, sincerely asked questions. But that just brings me back to the whole book. It felt a little bit like you were uncomfortable at different points. Like you weren't sure if you should be asking these questions or how they were going to be interpreted. Am I reading that right, that you were just a little bit uneasy, uncomfortable?

not sure what the word is. Yeah, you're definitely reading that right. Because the whole topic has no concrete answers. Like we have guidance in the Bible about wisdom and about how finances and how the pursuit of wealth can lead to all kinds of traps. But it's like it's not defined. And so in a Western context, our wealth is so much bigger in relation to the rest of the world.

And so when you start talking about this thing or start asking for better behavior or better I guess better messaging from another person, you also are forced to contend with it yourself. Basically, like, if you want others to be about it, you better also be about it. And so, of course, it makes me uncomfortable because, one, we're kind of, as Christians, we're conditioned to kind of be weird about money because it's like, we're happy to talk about sex and purity and all that kind of stuff. But when it comes to money, everybody's kind of cagey about it in a way. And so, and it's also, I don't tell many people this, but it's also a whole like, I get

how easy it is to point to the irony about this whole thing, about how I have a platform and how I wrote a book and how I'm people think I'm funny or insightful or whatever. And so part of that was me trying to fight back at that because inherently it feels good for people to say, oh, you're this hilarious Instagram dude and I've learned so much from you or you caused me to reevaluate my faith, which could easily pollute my ego or whatever. And it's just like, ultimately, I know that there's not a perfect answer to a lot of these things. I think they're worth pushing to improve. But I just, you know, I know the type of person I am and know how like I'm not any more anointed or gifted in like how to do church better. So like genuinely I wrote the book as a way to wrestle with things out loud myself and get other people to come along to do that as well.

I'm glad you said that. There's some things there I want to unpack for just a second. and a couple of things that I think really stand out. And one of the things that I want to go back to is whether pastors are held to a higher standard. And when I say pastors, I'm church staff, worship leaders, people who have visible, vocational Christian ministry roles. I have a guy who drives by my house as an older guy, good guy, and he means this in the best possible way. But he says, I like to drive by your house and see what you're driving. Now, great, thanks.

Right. I mean, he's going to see my 2008 RAV-4. So, okay, cool. But he's driving, I don't know how much, but a very nice car when he drives by to check out what I'm driving. And again, he's a good guy's older guy. I'm not going to harass him about it. But it shows a little bit of this kind of double standard that I can drive by in my $75,000 car. But I want to check with the pastor's driving and make sure that he's not driving a nice car. So do you think that in the book or in the Instagram account, the whole thing, preachers and sneakers puts the focus on church leadership in a way that it almost says church leadership has to live up to the standard that the rest of us don't have to hold ourselves to. How do you think about it? It's multi-layered because if you align the comment section to what I believe, then you would think that. That it's just like, hey, there's a double standard and you better live up to it. I am more, like I understand the nuance, I think, a little bit more where I've had plenty of conversations with pastors where they obviously have irrational standards put on them by people that are never going to tell them those standards until after you have a nice meal or go on a vacation and take a picture or something.

I don't ask that of like I want pastors to get paid really well. I think that's a really hard job. And I think they should be compensated well. I do think that as somebody that lives off of donations of people that are trying to further the kingdom of God sacrificially, it is worth considering the image that you put out to those people that are donating. And even if it's like that's an uncomfortable, even maybe unfair way to live life, either way, it's going to come up from people that are donating to your ministry. so you might as well get ahead of it. And I mean, also in terms of, I mean, you're a pastor, right? Yeah, I am. So you're going to know way more about this than I. But James 3-1 talks about being held to a higher standard. Not all of us should be leaders, that kind of thing. I didn't say that.

The Bible said that. And so maybe there's different interpretations of that, but also like, God's chosen leaders are going to be held to a higher standard. And so I'm not a legalist. And so, like, if you have a pair of $500 shoes, I don't think you're a bad, I think he could be a great preacher, whatever. I think the account could be used for a lot of different ways because it's also a mirror into people how, like, it's not just about church finances. It's about how people treat each other online. It's about how Christians are quick to judge and not audit their own lives, that kind

of thing. And so through kind of bringing up the pastoral wealth thing, it's kind of brought up a vessel by which to discuss a lot of other deep individual things. Yeah, I think you're right in that you said perception. becomes reality to some extent. And I don't know what to do about that because that's not really the way I wish things were. Yeah. Because you don't want to live in fear or you don't want to live by the opinions of some randos,

but also I don't think we're absolved or responsibility. We can't just say, because, you know, the Bible also talks, I think Romans 14 or 13 talking about not causing your brother to stumble. And I think we do have some element of responsibility to say, hey, how is my life affecting my neighbors? Like, we don't get to just do whatever we want and say, tough, you have a problem with money or you have a problem with what I do. Like, at least I think it's loving to consider how other people's lives are affected by your own.

Yeah, I have a friend who's a pastor in a different place, and he had a wealthier friend who wanted to gift him a really nice car. He was going to charge him what he would normally pay for a car, but this car was going to be worth much more. and he was asking my opinion of whether he could accept that car. So he was going to pay, what, $10,000 for it, but it was a $50,000 car, worth $50,000 when he was going to get it used. And I don't know you have to wrestle with perception, right,

because people aren't going to know that the vast majority of that money was gifted to you. They're just going to come to conclusions. But they're going to say, look at that pastor driving that really nice car. But then it kind of opens up, okay, there's a lot about people's lives that I don't know. Was that a gift? Did they inherit some money? So when I start putting myself where I'm judging other people and their spending habits, I always feel like I'm tempted to do it. It's just a dangerous place to be in. I've found that I'm better off examining my own as opposed to other peoples. Yeah, I do the same. And I think the same. And I guess at a certain point,

patterns start to be recognizable though. Like when is it okay to say, all right, man, like you do have the $50,000 car, but you also went to Cabo and you also did X, Y, and C. You also are on a private jet. Like, we're donating to your ministry. And when am I allowed to say, all right, like, it seems like you care about stuff a lot. And it's like a, there's no line for that. I hope that comes across in the book. It's like, that's something that I wrestle with because I want to be the type of person, like, because there's pastors all the time misusing funds or abusing their power or assaulting people or that kind of stuff. I mean, there's plenty of people doing all those things. but also includes pastors.

And the reason that stuff gets brought up oftentimes is because someone's willing to not mind their own business. And inherently, that's a net positive, I think, in order for a guy not to be abusive anymore. And most pastors aren't doing that. But I'm just saying, like, I guess I want to be the type of person that asks a question in good faith some of the time in hopes that I don't just bury my head in the sand

and get caught off guard, even just like in my personal life, if like my pastor here, I just never asked any questions about their life or our ministry or what our church was doing. You know, sometimes we could get caught off guard or be like, whoa, I wish somebody would have called him out on that or wish somebody would have addressed that because clearly he had some patterns of abuse or misuse or whatever. And it, you know, it's not fun to live in a world where you're just like constantly judging things.

I don't want to be that person either. I just also don't want to be scared to ask questions. Yeah, you seem like a guy I can identify with. You seem, at least through the book, it's not like we know each other, but it seems like you're cynical. You got a little bit of a cynical streak in you, that you don't trust the first story that you're told, right? That you look at people and you're a little bit suspicious of what's going on, what's the motive, that kind of thing, yeah? And I totally identify with that. That's my tendency, too. So I wonder if this Instagram account, your podcast, preachers and sneakers, the book, is this been good for your faith? Or have you found yourself growing a little bit more disenfranchised, more suspicious, more cynical? You know, I mean, that's just probably where I would find my heart going. And so I'm just wondering if you've had to deal with that. Yeah. The constant vitriol that occurs on the account and then towards me from Christians, basically calling me divisive in questioning my salvation, that,

They're a question of salvation? Oh, yeah, a lot of people. Like, how could you ever, if you're a Christian, how could you ever ask questions about these guys? They'll do more in a day than you'll do in your whole life, that kind of stuff. That's discouraging to me because it, I know who I am. I know my heart. And like, yes, I am. I do lean on the cynical side because, I mean, I think there's evidence that would support us being a little cynical with guys at this level.

And so that was discouraging. but also is a good practice in that, it's like figuring out why you believe what you believe is a good practice for everybody, I think. And some of that can be driven by cynicism. Like, dude, I don't know. Like, you're just telling me I have to believe this. Why do I have to believe this? Or why do I have to accept how we do church this way as status quo? That's not based on anything. And I'm just saying as an example, like that practice has been good for me to try to strip away the things that seem manmade or seem like they can be up for argument and get down to the root of. what I actually believe and then be okay with discussing secondary and tertiary issues.

So I'm disenfranchised with a lot of the entertainment production BS about how we do church right now, but I'm also encouraged that people are trying to follow Jesus and Jesus alone and not the dudes that are on stage or not the worship leaders in front of the band. And I think that's a, I think that's going to be a good thing. That makes sense. So you bring up, the entertainment facet. And you touch on that a little bit in the book. It's not the main thrust, but it's definitely a part of it. And I feel like sometimes churches are in this bind where if you put on something that some people might think of as a show because you've got a great band and you've got great lights and you've got a great backdrop, you're criticized for being worldly. And then if you

don't do that, well, you're not, you know, if you just have anybody there. Right. You just have this real simple little thing over here where you have a house church and you know you just have some coffee whatever then you're going to be told well look you're not adapting to the culture you're not in the culture you're not reaching the culture you're not pointing people to jesus so you know i mean maybe it's just my own thing as a pastor is you're you're kind of caught between these two things and whichever you do the cynical person can always find fault in it of which i am maybe the chief of the cynics so i find fault of my own self, but I just don't know what to do. So what kind of church? I mean, you go to a big church, you say. Your wife works at a big church down in the Dallas area. So how do you, are you

unable to worship in the, you know, like connect with God, worship God because you're checking out the smoke machine or something or what? Yeah, she used to work at a church. Once she had our first kid, she quit. I do go to a big church that's got a nice coffee shop and a pretty nice building. And I think there's merit into like doing things with excellence because it's distracting if you've got a cheesy worship band or if you've got an uncomfortable place to bring new people that maybe have never considered church before. I think there's utility in that. And I think there's utility in having really good music. I think there's utility in having even potentially having a coffee shop. But at a macro level when you connect a successful growing church with all of those things, I mean, if you look at all the mega churches, even here in just Dallas, they all look the same.

They all have huge real estate. They all have a coffee shop. They all have like conduct themselves the same way. And just like objectively, when you start thinking about all the dollar signs associated with all these things, like when is the juice not worth the squeeze? Like we're spending millions of dollars on putting a two hour service or an hour service on each weekend. Is there ever a better way to deploy those funds? And like there's the fundraising discussion.

There's like, well, how are you going to get people in to get people to give? It's like we need to give them something. but that's what that's what makes it turn into like a consumeristic type thing. I think we need to call people to something a little more than just to show up and come to church, which I know it. You as a pastor, it's an imperfect thing to call people to because many people just want to show up, consume and bounce.

And to answer your question, I can still worship in our church. I still have questions about the value of the smoke machines that we use. Like we could probably do without that. And I think we should have a posture of trying to audit. consistently how we point people to Jesus and whether or not it's rooted in genuinely trying to find some utility in that or just wanting to be seen as successful, to be Instagramable, to be talked about, to attract new people that are maybe going to give. If the goal, I think, should point people

to life transformation through belief in Jesus and only that. And if you're just attractional to get people in the door, somebody brought up a stat earlier about how megachurch is at least down here, kind of have the same membership year after year, but people are also leaving church year after year. Well, it's because there's churn. It's like people are coming in, consuming their deal, and then bounce and go into another church. It's like that, there's no life change in that, like unless they're, I guess, maybe planting other churches. So I just, I want, along with myself, I want churches to audit whether or not the money they're spending is actually turning into a quote unquote ROI for the kingdom. Yeah, I think that's fair. I.

I mean, I think churches need to evaluate their ministries and their focus, and a lot of it comes down to motive, because you can put on a great worship service for good and bad motives, a simple worship service, extravagant worship service, with all kinds of motives. But I liked your point earlier when you said that, you know, maybe somebody's gifted a car, but eventually you see a pattern, the Cabo trip, the private jet, all the things you said. And maybe that's true in a church. And you don't judge it by a worship service or a smoke machine, but you judge it by years of being involved. And are people finding Jesus there? Are people growing in Jesus? Are people seeing the fruit

of the spirit born out in their life? And if they are, then these trappings that you might be able to do without, well, maybe they're really working because they're drawing people in, making people feel comfortable. And if they're not, then no matter how simple or how grandiose the church is, there's a problem somewhere, right? If the mission is Jesus. Yeah. And if you're like the church we go to Watermark, I think does a great job of this. They have like 10,000 members. But anytime a new person shows up and they fill out, you know, an information card or whatever, somebody on staff has to call them that week in order to learn about this person and then to start giving them ways to get involved, whether it be a community group or a service opportunity or a ministry that they may need like a

recovery ministry, that kind of thing. I think if you're a church, like you should be proud of of the good work that you're doing. And if you can see life change, then be secure in what you do. Don't be eroded by a guy on Instagram that's like, hey, man, it seems like you guys are spending a lot of money. If so, then so be it, man. Like if you're leading to true life change, if you're using people as a metric and donations as a metric, just for growth's sake, I think you got some soul searching to do. Yeah, I think that's well said. Hey, let me ask you one more thing. So, Ben, I think we're similar enough that I want to ask you if you struggle with something that I do. And that's, is that sometimes I'm embarrassed to be a Christian.

And when I got your, when I was reading your book, I just thought that you were sometimes embarrassed of being associated with these angry trollers on your Instagram account who call themselves Christians but question your salvation because of pictures you're posting. Or these high society prosperity gospel showy preachers out there. and do you ever feel like you're embarrassed to be a Christian? Like, am I really a Christian? If these people are Christians, maybe I don't want to be a Christian. Yeah, at varying degrees.

Like, I mean, when people bring up the prosperity type people that clearly are taking advantage of, I mean, I genuinely don't know your theology or anything, but to me, prosperity gospel is basically saying, hey, God is here for you to transact with you in exchange for your money and faith. And I think that is misguided at best and evil at worst. And to be connected with that to say, hey, I believe Jesus, these guys are also saying they believe Jesus. Yeah, I'm embarrassed that they get a bigger platform to now basically soil the name of a pure God that we get to follow because of their own sinful worldly desires or whatever. I have my own sinful worldly desires, but I'm saying they get to characterize Christianity in a whole broad stroke. And I'm embarrassed to be connected to that.

And then also anytime we just see this cycle of insanity where we build up a celebrity pastor or celebrity Christian over years and years and years where they're untouchable and they have this massive ministry and immense reach and impact. And then inevitably they end up being an imperfect flawed person. I'm embarrassed when they inevitably fall and their ministry is eroded. And now I have to even just to myself answer to, all right, what do I do? with this because I'm trying to influence others for Jesus and it's not exactly helpful for them to be able to point to the New York Times and say, hey, this guy also said he believed the same thing as you. And like you can get into the whole nuance like, well, yes, like we follow a perfect God and perfect people, you know, none of us are perfect, that kind of thing.

But there are times where it seems like we can easily make it a clown show. We can have these public disputes about who owns what church and who's entitled to which membership or we can have these public, you know, moral failings, that kind of stuff. And we're, yeah, I often feel embarrassed about being associated with that. And thankfully, we follow a God that is not scared of that stuff and is going to be here regardless of how much we screw it up. And so, you know, I'm not at risk of leaving the faith or anything, but I am at risk of leaving whatever this consumeristic version of faith is. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. It's hard to be a Christian when famous Christians. I don't even know if they're Christians, right? Because how do you know? It's not my job

to know your heart. I can barely know my own heart. So I don't just take them what their word. If they say they're followers of Christ, okay, whatever. And when they're falling because of infidelity or immorality or embezzlement or being an authoritative bully and we could go through the list, but it didn't help anybody to go through that list. You probably already know it if you're into that thing. It is hard to be a Christian in those situations. It's hard to be a Christian when Christians are so involved in politics that they've distorted the faith because they're so into left or right wing. And as we say, that people are being disciples more by the donkey and the elephant than they are the lamb, right? And that makes it hard to be a Christian. It's hard to be a Christian in this

particular culture. There's so many things I'm embarrassed of, but one of the hardest things, is I see all those things in my own heart. So it's like I'm embarrassed of being a Christian, but that I'm embarrassed of being embarrassed, because I know that all those things that I've got my guns at, metaphorically, speaking, shooting, and other people, in some form or fashion, they're in my own heart. So then I'm like, well, God, have mercy on me.

And so I find myself drifting where I become critical and frustrated with others. And I just do better, I think, spiritually, me personally, do better spiritually when I think, no, I want to hold myself accountable to follow Jesus. And whatever standard I have for other people, I want to have that for myself, right? That's, I need to follow. I need to practice what I preach because it's easy to find holes in other people and let yourself off the hook. Because I always know my own story and I've got a great reason why this is okay in my situation.

But I'm not willing to give the benefit of the doubt the other person, right? Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. I lean towards that too and my counselor has been trying to get me to not to work in extremes one way or the other because logically I can get to that point too drilling down. It's like, well, if I want this for this person, don't I have to also be this, this, this, this and this. And I'm like, I think there's a way to do both where it's like I'm constantly trying to work on dying to my own desire to be rich, dying to my own desire to have people worship me or think I'm awesome or laugh at my jokes or whatever, but also not burying my head in the sand when there's, you know, is a, when I see a pattern, like we talked about earlier, or I see something glaring about a faith that I share with somebody who has a very public presence. You know, I don't do that perfectly, but I also, I think many of us can just talk ourselves and like, all right, since we have to

work on ourselves, there's no way I can ever comment on anything anybody else does. Well, then that's going to allow predators to be predators and wolves to be wolves. And I, I was, maybe it's a Marine Corps thing in me that can't sit with that very well, but it's hard for me to notice a thing or see a thing and not address it or at least ask about it. Yeah. Well, I think you do as well a job as anybody could of trying to walk that line of admitting your own struggle and at the same time trying to ask questions that the church needs to wrestle with. Yeah. It's not comfortable. It's kind of anxiety inducing for sure. Yeah, I would have not picked this for myself two years ago.

Well, what's the future with the account, do you know? I mean, just the book just came out. Yeah, I don't know. I would like to not table it. Like, I don't want to post about pastoral footwear the rest of my life. I would like to, I would like to be known as the guy that did this and hopefully can do other interesting things. I don't want to be the preachers and sneakers guy in my whole life. But I'm interested in, you know, I'd be honored to be able to write another book.

I got inspired. I don't have an idea yet. So that's going to have to be a miracle. But in the future, I really don't know. I hope people get something out of the book and it makes some kind of makes the needle move some way in terms of how we do church maybe or how people consider their faith or audit their own lives. But I'm not sure what's going to happen in the future. So where do people find you up? Preachers and Sneakers at bookstores, Amazon, that kind of thing. Again, I'd encourage you to listen to the Audible book because Ben does a great job at reading it. But where else do people find you? The Instagram at Preachers Letter in Sneakers and then Preachers and Sneakers.com has all the links and links to my podcast, which is called the Preachers and Sneakers Podcast.

You got one good name and you're going to write it. That's right. You're not letting that thing go. Why try to reinvent the one creative thing that I came up with? That's perfect name. Yeah. And on that podcast, I try to interview interesting. people to talk about these same type of issues because I think it's a healthy thing to discuss.

And yeah, PreachersSinger.com, the book is what I care about the most right now just because it's basically the most of the majority of what I think and believe about these topics. And so people ask me all the time like, what's the purpose of this account? It's like, I would love for you to read this book because I spend hours and hours and hours trying to tell you what the purpose of this account is. So if people bought the book, that's the most I could ever ask for. Well, thanks for spending some time with us. And really appreciate it.

Have a great day. Thanks, Keith. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe and give us a rating. That helps others find this podcast more easily. Also ask yourself who you could share this podcast with. Texting an episode to a friend or family member is a great way to help them grow spiritually. If you want to go deeper, check out our show notes for book recommendations.