Ten Minute Bible Talks Devotional Bible Study - How to Walk With God | An Interview with Mark Buchanan

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Tim Minna Bible Talks, where we connect the Bible to your life and the time it takes to get to work. My name is Patrick Miller. And I'm Keith Simon. Also, if you want to connect with us, follow us on Twitter at TMBT Podcast. You can also check out our hashtag, hashtag, AskT, TMBT, where you can ask us anything, and we'd love to connect with you. Hey, guys, it's Keith, getting ready to interview a guy named Mark Buchanan. I think you'll enjoy it. The funny thing is that throughout the whole thing, he calls me Daniel.

Starting point is 00:00:36 Because my friend and the guy who works with this, Daniel Moore, set up the interview and one of those Zoom snafus. We're going to get it figured out. In 2022, we're going to be great on Zoom, but 2021 we're still learning. So have fun with it. Here's Mark. So Mark Buchanan, author of Godwalk. Here's one thing I learned in reading your book is that you grew up a queen fan, right? The British rock band?

Starting point is 00:01:00 Oh, yeah. entirely. How'd that come about? Well, I didn't grow up in a Christian home, and I, from an early age, was captivated by music. Not so much as a musician. I'm a bit of a musician, but just, I think, the emotional depth of music, something it spoke for me. And so I really gravitated toward rock bands, 70s rock bands. I mean, I'm a child of the 70s.

Starting point is 00:01:27 And for many people my age, Bohemian Rhapsody was kind of a revelation. nothing before, nothing since. And I fell in love with this band. I saw perform live in 1977 in Vancouver. Wow. How old were you then? I called him, 17. Were you high?

Starting point is 00:01:46 No, here's an interesting thing. I grew up in my earlier years in a really druggy town. And I decided, even though it had no Christian influence, I decided to never do drugs. So I've never even spoke to joint. So that was just one of these kind of willpower things you do? did. I mean, you just said, look, I watched these guys you go down this drug route. And even though I don't really have any reason not to do it, it's just not something I'm interested in. Yeah, entirely. I learned Daniel early in my life, I discovered, though I sort of put it together

Starting point is 00:02:19 later, that I didn't really experience pure pressure. And I'm not sure why. So the more somebody tried to pressure me into something, the more stubborn and resistant I became to it. That comes in handy and when you're a teenager. I don't know if it works when you're married, but it works. Yeah, it's had this down aside. So I ask you about Queen because, for whatever reason, I liked Queen as well. I'm not a music guy, probably to the extent you are, but grew up on We Will Rock You and another one bites the dust and all those kind of things. And then when my kids were little, their favorite song was Fat Bottom Girls. So we would drive around in our minivan with a Windows down and we'd all be seeing fat bottom girls at the top of our lungs.

Starting point is 00:03:07 The minivan thing would just kind of complete it. Exactly. My wife's in the front seat with me and we're all belting it out. But good times. So the reason that you mentioned Queen in the book is because you're talking about your 20th birthday and your brother gives you a Bible and you're listing all the things you would have preferred more than a Bible. And it's a pretty long list.

Starting point is 00:03:30 and queen concert tickets are in that list, but he gives you a Bible. And then if I remember right, it sits there a while and you pick it up. Can you just unpack that story? Because you said you grew up in a house that wasn't really a Christian home. So how does all this go down and you end up doing what you're now, a pastor, a theologian, an author? So my mother was always pursuing Jeremy Kenya or some guru or Swami, literally. And so for a while, she became a very devout follower of the Maharishi Mahashiyahiyah who was the founder of Transcendental Meditation. But any Swami would do almost.

Starting point is 00:04:09 And so I just grew up with his mother who was on this religious quest. And then this father who was the opposite, a father who was an alcoholic who decided he believed in some vague way in the god of his understanding but didn't want to get personal. So those were my influences. So in my teen years, I didn't have a religious thought. But when I was in my late teens, my mom came to faith in Christ. And there's a whole long backstory to that that I won't get into. But I chalked it up to another Swami. I had no Christian influence. So I thought just another guru. Yeah, I can see why. But I began to notice really deep, lasting changes in my mom. around that same time, my brother got into just kind of a state of mind where he was looking for something. And my mom persuaded him to come to her church. And he became a Christ follower. So this was bewildering to me. Yeah, I bet. And so then I just moved out of the home and in with a girl. And that was

Starting point is 00:05:18 the Christmas. My brother gave me my 20th birthday of the Bible. And I'm like, oh, brother, these religious folks. I'm starting to understand that Christianity is different from the other things my mom was pursuing. This was the era of the born again movement as well. And some listeners will remember that where there's a sort of aggressive, somewhat formulaic approach to evangelism. And so it was very common that you'd get button-hold or strong-armed voice, some evangelical Christian trying to get you saved. And so I wanted nothing to do with it. And so this Bible sat for six months or so, but my life wasn't going well in this relationship I was in. And one day I picked it up. And I began to read. And first of that I thought you read like

Starting point is 00:06:08 the normal book. He started Genesis and moved through. You get lost like quit and Leviticus like everybody does? Absolutely. But honestly, if you've never read scripture, Genesis itself is a fascinating but very strange book. And then, yeah, I got bogged down. in Reviticus or maybe Exodus. And so I phone my mom and I said, I'm reading your book, but it's making no sense. And she said, well, you've got to start with the Gospels. Well, I didn't have a clue with that, what those were. So I asked her, she directed me.

Starting point is 00:06:41 And I started in the Gospels, but what really I met Christ in a very visceral way, it was very tangible. It was like somebody had ambushed me. And that encounter really rattled me. It didn't comfort me. It rattled me. And when you say visceral, you mean physical or emotional? Yeah, everything.

Starting point is 00:07:04 I would read the Bible and I would be physically shaking at the strength, the emotional kind of weight, the sense of Christ present with me, and not particularly friendly, to be honest. More like, what are you going to do? And so I began to read it with Fear and Trembling, but it wasn't coming to faith. I was going through a crisis. And then around that time, I met the Cheryl who I ended up marrying. And our first time we sat down sort of at a date, I basically said, I think I'm going to

Starting point is 00:07:41 become a Christian. No, is she a Christian at this time? No, no. Okay, neither of you were. So she thought this was weird. No, she just said, oh, well, I'm a Christian. and I've been to some parties with her, and I said, no, no. Not the kind of Christian my mom is, right?

Starting point is 00:07:59 The real thing, I said. And so she was intrigued. And so we started the journey together, and about six months after that, we both came to faith. Wow, it sounded like when you started reading your Bible, you were confused about what to do with Jesus. You know, this is you telling your story and your latest book, but it's, you're telling you. just seemed like you were confused about what to do with Jesus. He was not somebody that you could put into a category or that you could put in a box. And some of your books and your writings, you've talked about how God isn't safe, how God is bigger than we might imagine, almost a little

Starting point is 00:08:36 scary. And it sounds like that idea of God, that view of God started all the way back when you first became a Christian. Daniel, it really did. And in many ways, maybe my books are more sophisticated knowing expiration of a very primal experience that goes all the way back to my encounter with Christ pre-conversion. I want for your readers to imagine, as many of your readers will probably have grown up in church and under the influence of Sunday school teachers, et cetera. Imagine if you are in your 20s, you're actually in your education, you're taking a literary degree, so you're being trained in the reading of texts.

Starting point is 00:09:21 And so part of how that training is, is an imaginative immersion into whatever you're reading, looking for themes, looking for clues, looking for how character is formed. And you start reading scripture. You've never read it before. You're coming to it utterly unprepared and naive. And you meet in the Gospels, this person named Christ,

Starting point is 00:09:45 nothing, nothing, nothing has prepared you for who Christ is. Nothing. That encounter I've never recovered from because there's no one like him. And I knew that. I'm not talking that I'm having some kind of pious. Like I say, it's not even so much leading to faith. It's leading to crisis. And I knew later I became a binge reader of C.S. Lewis.

Starting point is 00:10:13 And Lewis famously says Jesus is either liar, lunatic, or Lord. That he made these outrageous claims about who he is and what he does and why he's there. And nobody who is just a good teacher is going to make those claims. It's either some kind of psychopathic, deluded individual or somebody who's actually speaking the truth. So liar, lunatic, the Lord. I got that in a really visceral way. and I knew that I had to utterly reject Jesus or totally embrace Jesus, that there was nothing in the middle. Well, I love how you talk about Jesus, because with everything that's happening these days and the way that I think sometimes Christians are our worst enemy in that the way we live our life probably casts doubt on Christianity.

Starting point is 00:11:03 But when I focus on Jesus and I remember who he is and what he taught, he rose from the dad, it's good for my heart. It's like I need that myself. And my guess is there are other people out there who just need to not so much be concerned about all the people who claim to be Christ followers as much as Jesus himself. It seems like Christians sometimes let you down. Churches sometimes let you down, but Jesus never fails. you. I like your focus in pointing us back to Jesus. I became a Christian not completely different than you. I didn't come from a Christian home either. And I ended up becoming a Christian about the time I turned 19. And one of the things that I had to do was kind of learn the Christian

Starting point is 00:11:53 subculture. Like there are Christian radio stations. There are Christian bookstores. There's all these Christian colleges, things that I didn't even know existed because I didn't live in that Christian world. And one of the things I had to learn was how Christians talked, they had their own language. And one of the things that people would ask me is, how is your walk with God? And I would be like, okay, what's that mean? I mean, you could kind of figure out in context what that meant. But it turns out that the walk with God is not just something Christians made up, but it's kind of rooted in the scriptures. And it kind of forms the basis, at least a way to think about it, of your book God walk. So can you just kind of help us think for a second about how a walk with God, God walk, is the story of the Bible?

Starting point is 00:12:39 I mean, I would make the argument and try to in the book, God walk, that walking is maybe the primary way of understanding biblically what it is to be in relationship with God. That that language starts right at the beginning in Genesis, the God who comes and walks in the garden, the cool of the day. and by implication sort of invites or summons humankind demand a woman to come and walk with him. To very early in Genesis we hear about Enoch walking with God or Noah walking with God. And all the way through it, it becomes a stominant way of describing what it is to be in deepest relationship with God. So of course, the Micah 6'8, what does God want from you to do justly love? of mercy and walk humbly with God. And then when we get into the New Testament, we have Jesus who literally says the people come and follow me. And he means it, not in some vague, metaphorical way,

Starting point is 00:13:41 but I'm walking from here to there that you come with me and walk along the road with me. And then we see when we get into the letters, and particularly this shows up in the letters of Paul and the letters of John, that's their dominant verb to describe. what it is to walk in with God or in some disposition toward God. So walking in truth, walking in faith, walking in the light. I tease that out and began to realize, I mean, partly Daniel, the book comes out of thinking that of all the religions on the face of the earth that should have a corresponding physical discipline, it should be Christianity.

Starting point is 00:14:25 Hinduism has yoga, et cetera. Tai Chi Has Kadate, why didn't Christianity develop this corresponding physical physiology? And then I realized actually we have. We've always had walking. But I think it was so deeply embedded in how people lived out their faith throughout biblical history that nobody thought to make it explicit. When I hear walk, I mean, I just confess, not so much now that I'm older, but when I was first reading the Bible and it was quite a bit younger, it sounds slow. It sounds what old people do. It sounds boring. But I think that's because I'm missing something. Life is so rushed. You're a important person because you're a busy person. We're flying from one thing to the next. We're cranking out our to do list. And you're making the argument because you're saying the Bible's making the argument that we need to walk with God, that walking is his pace.

Starting point is 00:15:25 So how do modern, hurried people in the West slow down to walk with God? Or is that necessary? Do I have to slow down to walk with God? Help me think through that. The subtitle of my book, God Walk, is moving at the speed of your soul. And I start the book with a quotation from the Japanese theologian, Kossacko Koyame. And he wrote a book in the 70s called The Three Mile an Hour God. When you're on a walk, and it's actually a fairly brisk-paced walk.

Starting point is 00:15:55 you go approximately three miles an hour. And Kasaka Kiyama, he was a Japanese theologian working actually in Vietnam just after the Vietnamese War. And so he's working mostly with rural peasants and trying to contextualize this. He's one of the best early contextualizers of evangelical theology. That's a background. So Kuyama began to realize that the missionaries coming over, especially from a America into these settings had too much of a sort of a managerial approach to teaching faith.

Starting point is 00:16:36 Managerial. So they wanted to manage people into the faith. And Coynella just recovers a sense of the God who moves slowly. There's not this kind of efficient, quick way to do things. We like to be in control, don't we? Totally. We want to check things off. I read my Bible. I prayed. I went to church. Okay, I'm ready. I'm done. Now what? What's next? So Coyama writing the three-melan hour God roots his sense that we have to do theology more slowly and more personally, more interpersonally, in this picture of God as the one who moves slowly. And it's so compelling to me.

Starting point is 00:17:15 Actually, that book, Three Melanara God, is a classic among especially Asian missionaries of that era because he is reimagining how to do. evangelism and missionary work in a context that was brand new to American missionaries. So with us walking with God, the slowing down, why I would argue that it is actually necessary is when you think about it, God is in no particular hurry. He's not? It's just not. And so there's a few things we can point to obviously and say God moved very quickly on that. But even when you think about, say, the Exodus event, how long it takes God to get around to that. And then the drama, the drawn-out drama of these 10 plagues, et cetera, there's a sense where when God's doing something deep, profound, lasting, when it's going to form the hearts and minds

Starting point is 00:18:13 of the people that he loves, he's going to take his time with it. And some of that may be just our stubbornness and our reticence and a resistance to what he's doing. but I think that God just does things slowly because he wants them to endure. And often those things done in a more slow way have a longer lifespan. You're making me think that God maybe isn't a good American if he is not in a hurry like I am. One of the verses that you start chapter four, I think, if my memory serves correct, is this. It's out of Jeremiah 6 and says, this is what the Lord says. crossroads and look, ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is and walk in it,

Starting point is 00:19:00 and you will find rest for your souls. But you said we will not walk in it. So two paths that are being offered. The ancient path, the old path, maybe the slow path, God's path, the path of wisdom, the path of obedience, the path of submission, the path of joy. And yet there's this other path that we take too often, that we're standing at this fork in the road, our way or God's way, our path or God's path, and too often we get lost. So you have this great line. I think it's my favorite sentence in your book, not long after that verse. You say a map is good, but a guide is gold. What's the difference between having a map and a guide? I think listeners will very quickly be able to identify with this. If we go on a road trip or a hike,

Starting point is 00:19:50 We know we have our Strava and we're going on some new trail or whatever and we have this actual map in front of us. That's excellent because we can locate herself in relationship to other things and hopefully not get lost on the way. But the guy, the person who's traveled that route many times knows it intimately and knows what's along the way. So it's one thing. You can look in a map and not know that's a dangerous part of town or that's. that's the place you want to stop and slow down and that's where you want to have lunch. A maps generally. It's like the maps more limited.

Starting point is 00:20:27 I mean, the map tells you some things, but the guide personalizes it? Is that what you were saying? Entirely. And there's a sense where I'd like to have a map, even if I have a guide, simply because the maps located me in a larger context.

Starting point is 00:20:40 A guide not necessarily going to do that. And the guide's not necessarily going to point out my proximity to some other place or how far along I am. am on the way. But the guide is that one who very much personalizes it. And also kind of because of this deep intimate knowledge of the way is going to share wisdom that a map simply is incapable of giving. Yeah, I don't know if this is what you meant when you wrote that sentence. But what I thought of is that a map tells me some knowledge, whereas a guide provides help, encouragement, strength. And So I thought of the Holy Spirit being a guide who comes along with us.

Starting point is 00:21:25 And that's what I need because rarely do I not know what the right thing to do is. I mean, a map might tell me which way to go. I usually know in my life which way to go. I just don't do it. I need the help and the encouragement that the guide offers. Is that the right image to have in my mind? Yeah, very much. And there's a sense of with that encouragement that offers,

Starting point is 00:21:49 Often you're indicating this, Daniel, that there's something in us that wants to sabotage us. I got more of that in me than you do and you, I promise. Yeah, well, there's just something to be that just even if I know, so knowledge isn't enough, even if I know this is the way that's best for me, there's something in me that wants to undermine that, going a different direction anyhow. So I think you're absolutely right, that the spirit, the guide understood is this one. who the word that John uses is the paraclete, the one who comes alongside to give us encouragement and strength.

Starting point is 00:22:27 So I share you my favorite sentence. Here's my favorite paragraph. In, let me set up a little context, is that you're talking about different kinds of walks, that not all walks are the same, and you reference this woman whose book I want to read, Rebecca Solnit, maybe I've been saying her name right, Wanderlust, a history of walking.

Starting point is 00:22:48 And here's what you write, marchers in a march are after something justice peace freedom impeachment revolution clean water the end of discrimination accountable government the end of war the march is about change just like a pilgrimage but unlike a pilgrimage the change sought is always out there not in here it's about others changing but not me can you unpack that a little bit for us yeah and i probably want to nuance it a bit hey those are your words Yeah, I know. You're going to nuance yourself?

Starting point is 00:23:21 In a minute. Okay, I'm just playing with you. In the unpacking, there has been this transition. That paragraph comes in the midst of an expiration of the history of pilgrimage, which was undertaken by and large in some penitential way. I wanted to change in some way. I wanted to repent and change my mind. Whereas the march, as history moves and we get away from pilgrimage,

Starting point is 00:23:46 we move toward marching, which is still about change, but normally it's directed toward this, as I say, some change outside in society and politics, etc. And I think that if we don't retain that sense of pilgrimage as part of our walking, in other words, I need to change and I need to embody the change I'm hoping for, then often we'll just get these angry marches where we're trying to kind of,

Starting point is 00:24:16 alter something, but we ourselves remain, you know, stubborn people, angry people, et cetera, hurtful people. The way I want to nuance it is I think that we can find both in history and recently walks or marches where the people walking are actually in some ways expressing the change that has happened in them. That's good. Yeah, and they're hoping to somehow bring others into that sort of awareness, et cetera. Well, I didn't take it that you were criticizing marching for change as much as you were saying, be careful that you don't think the problem is out there because usually the problem is inside of me. It's like we have met the enemy and he is us.

Starting point is 00:25:02 That is me. I've met the enemy. My enemy is rarely outside of me. It's almost always inside of me. Or at least I'd say my biggest enemy. So that's kind of how I took it. Is that the right way to take it? Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:25:15 Wise people have talked about the evil that we're opposing often cuts right through our own hearts. So there's a sense where I am not just an opponent of some injustice or whatnot, but often I am the embodiment to some extent of that injustice. So we could take any issue. We can take racism and think of how most of us are dedicated to the dismantling of racism. but there's some racist tendencies in virtually every human heart. And so if we're not conscious of that as we push against the social structures of racism, then I think that we're missing an opportunity to likewise sort of become more that

Starting point is 00:26:02 which we want to see writ large in the society. When I was reading your book, one thing kind of clicked in my head, and it deals with my prayer life, and I enjoy praying more when I'm walking. It's not the only time I pray, but it's by far the most enjoyable time I feel more connected to God. I'm focused more on the right things. And you encourage that. You encourage to not always be sitting, but to kind of give movement to your life with God. As you referenced it earlier, that if there was a physical discipline to accompany Christianity,

Starting point is 00:26:39 perhaps it would have been walking. So what's the connection there? Why is it that I do better walking and praying than sitting and praying? Well, because we're embodied individuals. And there's a sense where everything connects with everything. So body, spirit, mind, soul. And that as embodied individuals, if we can incarnate our prayer, if we can physically move out,

Starting point is 00:27:04 I think even just the benefit of being in God's creation, in some very tangible way as we walk, the stimulation of that, the immersion of that is going to help prayer. Daniel, one of my best known books is called The Rest of God, and it's an exploration of the gift of Sabbath. And after I wrote that, I would have many people when I was go and talk about it someplace, say, when I try to sit down and focus on God or pray,

Starting point is 00:27:36 I just get tired, I just fall asleep. where I get restless. And I realized that was me too, that I was at my best when there was some kinetic. My praying wasn't simply in a barclamower, but it was somehow my feet were moving underneath me. I was more engaged with God, more engaged with God's creation, et cetera. And so I started to realize that even Sabbath isn't so much of abstillments. It's about attentiveness. That's good.

Starting point is 00:28:06 And so anything I think that's enhancing our attention. attentiveness is going to be probably a good practice for spiritual connection. Well, sometimes when you're on a prayer walk, you see people's houses that you might want to pray for. You see needs in the community. Depends on, of course, where you live. But there's something about coming into contact that God puts that on your heart and then you can express those thoughts or feelings back to God and ask him to intervene in whatever way he wants, whatever his will is in that situation. So you've written a lot of books. You are a pastor and a theologian. You've been a seminary professor. You're now going to launch a new ministry, you and your wife, to indigenous women.

Starting point is 00:28:52 Tell us just a little bit about that. My wife and I for about 20 years have been walking with what in America is called Native American people or in Canada indigenous people. And that's led us over the last year and some to God giving us a vision. But the most vulnerable people in Canada, there's no question are indigenous children and women. As we're doing this podcast, I know it will probably come out later, but in Canada, there is a national news that shock the nation about the unmarked graves of 215 indigenous children that have been identified at a native residential school. And this would be over a period of time, these children would have died,

Starting point is 00:29:41 some of likely by abuse from malnourishment. And it's shocking the nation. But it confirms what my wife and I have found over those last 20 years, the most vulnerable people in Canada for sure, but it may be a global phenomenon are indigenous women and children. And so God has been growing in us longing to actually be part of a new story, a better story. So this September in 2021, we're launching a ministry called Luce Story Community.

Starting point is 00:30:15 We're going to start very small with four women, younger women. So 19, they have to be 19 or older. And it's a ministry for eight months where it's both a healing and discipleship journey and also vocational training. So we're partnering with an amazing retreat center. And they're going to do vocational training, everything from, how to prepare a meal that in a fancy restaurant you'd pay $50, 60 for, to they have a farm at this retreat center.

Starting point is 00:30:46 So animal husbandry and the caring for the earth, they have a full orchard. They have a wood shop, et cetera, et cetera. So the women are going to get vocational training. They're going to get paid for that training. So they're going to actually get paid to help out in the ministry of the retreat center. and then we're going to take them on this journey where not only my wife and I will teach, but we'll bring in people, politicians, doctors, lawyers to really give these women a good understanding of how the legal system works, political system works, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:31:20 After eight months, we hope these women are well along in a human journey. They've got a bunch of employable skills and they have a little fistful of money to kind of establish themselves, and they've lived in a community. So to establish themselves in a new story. So that's what the vision is, and we begin soon. I love hearing about that kind of stuff, because it stretches our imaginations. Probably we're not called to do that exact same thing that you're called to, but all of us need to stretch our imaginations of how we can come alongside of people

Starting point is 00:31:55 and bring healing and hope and the ministry of Jesus. into people's real practical lives. I love hearing what you and your wife are going to do, and I hope it challenges us to look around and have our eyes open for where God might use us. Hey, Mark, where can people find your stuff? Are you on social media, websites? Where do we look for you?

Starting point is 00:32:19 So, I mean, any books on internet sellers, my personal website is markupyukannon.net. and the ministry I just talked about is Newstorycommunity.net. Mark Buchanan.net and Newstory ministry.net? Newstory community. Okay. Newstory community.

Starting point is 00:32:39 Dot net. Excellent. Thanks so much for joining us, Mark. I really appreciate your wisdom. Love the God Walk and we'll be recommending it to others. Thanks so much. Daniel, you're welcome and thank you. Thanks for listening.

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Ten Minute Bible Talks Devotional Bible Study - How to Walk With God | An Interview with Mark Buchanan

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