Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 107: Andrew Scheffer, The Wharton Monk

Episode Date: November 8, 2017

Andrew Scheffer's decision to try meditation after his freshman year of college launched him on a journey where he traveled the world, spent over a year training as a Buddhist monk and worked with the famed Buddhist master, Sayadaw U Pandita, before going on to earn an MBA from the prestigious Wharton School of Business. After working in finance, Scheffer founded and leads "Mindfulness Matters," a corporate training program that applies meditation practices to leadership skills, teaching all sorts of groups from hotel workers to financial managers. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

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I'm Dan Harris. Got a good one for you this week, before I launch into it though, Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad.

Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad.

Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. Happy new year, dad. That's the end of the shameless self promotion. Andrew Schaffer is a friend of mine and sometimes he's called the Wharton Monk because he both went to Wharton Business School and was for quite a while a Buddhist monk over in

Myanmar formally known as as Burma How all of that happened is really interesting you're're about to hear it. And just so you know, he also has a new business called Mindfulness Matters. He teaches meditation to primarily in a business context. And as I said, his story is really, really interesting. He's got a lot to say. So here he is, Andrew Scheffer. How did you get into this game?

The mindfulness game. Yeah. So, you know, I Scheffer. How did you get into this game? The mindfulness game. Yeah. So, you know, I think after my freshman year... Nice, nice Jewish kid from suburban New York, how do you end up here? After a freshman year of college, I was looking for something to refocus my mind. And I got some books on meditation, and it was teaching us to redirect your attention to the breath and when it wanders to bring it back. But we're about the same age. I'm 46, I'll do. Yeah, a couple of years older.

Okay, so I mean, I had all sorts of issues when I was a freshman in college, but I would never have thought to buy a book on meditation. I would have maybe said, oh, I should go to one more keg party. So what was going on with you that you actually reached out for meditation? You know, I literally think I was aware that my mind was more scattered after that freshman

year than before. And so I was just looking for something that could help hone it, make it sharper again. And the idea of my brother actually had been getting into reading a bunch of spiritual books and meditation books, and he handed me a book. So you're right, I wasn't perusing the book store, he was like, hey, you might like this, you might find this interesting. Where were you in school and what was going on that was scattering your mind?

Nothing, I mean, I was a typical freshman at college, partying, experiencing things. I went to Johns Hopkins University undergrad, which freshman year, the first half was pass fail. So that created an environment for some to adjust to the new academic rigors and for others to use the freedom to have more fun. So I was in a ladder group. Yeah, I was, yes. Okay. My got a guy. So you started reading about meditation and what happened?

You know, I started, it was a, there was books about gurus, my brother was reading and he gave me all. It was just an appealing and interesting world. The book talked about meditation, but it also gave short guided instructions. I had a lot, I was taking a French corps à Cicolombia, and so the rest of the day it was more or less free. This is the summer. Do you remember which book it was? It was a Stephen Levine book. I think on dying or you know half yeah there were two books one was halfway through the door by the actor Arnie his name is Ludwig Maitemov. And it was about his relationship with his spiritual

teacher and the other was this Stephen Levine book. Is it called Who Dies? It may have been Who Dies. I can't remember if it was that one or he has another book out too that had... I remember at the end of each chapter there was short-cited... I have a phone in my pocket so I'm going to Google that. Why not? Because I'm only doing this because I think our listeners would want to know because if that book had an effect on you, it may have an effect on

that. So anyway, so you're reading the book. So I read the book and I started to notice yes, by the way, who dies? Who dies? Radical shift in my mind, whereas before I was aware that my mind was very irritable, if I had a scratch or an itch that came up, I needed to immediately scratch it. During the end of the summer my mind felt much brighter, much more balanced, much illuminated. I could see an itch come up, I could pay attention to it and the itch would go. I didn't have to scratch it. How much meditation were you doing? I was doing a lot. I was doing probably, you know, I was living in a very simple apartment, no TV, no, I had a CD player

with a few CDs. It's probably meditating three, five more hours a day. I mean, I was doing a lot of meditation on my own. So you, you, you, what, 19 years old or something like that? And doing three to five hours of meditation a day. I mean, that's hard core. You know what it was, Are you that kind of person like you get into something you just go crazy for? No, there was no one to tell me it was hard. There was no one to tell me anything about it.

So it was just me trying an experiment, what happens when I try to pay attention, being a somewhat perfectionist, if I couldn't do it, it made me want to try harder. And I didn't beat myself up. It was like, I'm gonna do it it made me want to try harder and I didn't beat myself up It was like I'm gonna figure it was smart enough to say I'm gonna figure out how to do this rather than oh, you're not doing it right So that combination of things really led to you know this rent remarkable Transformation and I knew I wasn't so happy with things prior so it I was like, try it. And as I tried it, you know, extraordinary result happen, which I didn't, wasn't sure we're related to meditation.

You know, I thought maybe at 19, your mind just grows up instead of being so reactive, it matures. We heard, all heard the word maturity, so it seemed to make sense to me that maybe this just is a normal process. And so of course, at the end of the summer, I stopped meditating and it all went away. And then I realized, oh, there's probably some cause and effect there. So did you then go back to doing three to five hours a day? No, I don't think it was three to five hours at that point, but it was, I believed in

the practice and needed a certain amount of it to continue to nurture myself. So like I said, we grew up in the same era. I'm also only half Jewish, but you know, same kind of cultural milieu up from the suburbs of Austin. You're from the suburbs of New York. You and your brothers start getting into meditation. What did your parents think? Because this is way before meditation became cool. Right. So when my brother first started doing it, I before meditation became cool. Right.

So when my brother first started doing it, I think everyone became slightly alarmed. So he went up and did a 10-day meditation course, and I went up and accompanied him as kind of like the chaperone like what is he getting into. This was after that summer. I mean, did you actually do the course? I did a nine-day retreat at IMS. We should just explain to people that's insight, meditation society, which is in Barry B a RRE Massachusetts, amazing place.

Uh, so you went up there and did this course with him with your older brother. And you're the thinking was, uh, you're just kind of going along to make sure he's not in a, in a cult. Exactly. And that's what the initial concern was back in the 1980s when we were doing this late 1980s. So by the way, just give me a little background of your parents. What kind of line of work were they in? So my father was an entertainment industry executive.

He worked at HBO for 30 something years. My mother had, you know, was a teacher at one point. She was a real estate agent at one point and she spent a lot of time raising us. So, pretty mainstream middle of the road folks, not like you didn't grow up on an Oshrom. No, not at all. My father went to Harvard Business School. So both, education, both college degrees,

my father and master's degree, both educated, you know, upward focused on worldly success. And and a little freak out when their sons, uh, nice boys ended up at a, uh, a meditation center. Well, I think my father, you know, took some solace in that he knew I liked the good things in life. He knew I enjoyed at the time I'd smoke occasional cigars.

I would certainly drink at the time I ate steaks. Uh, so he wasn't so worried that I was going to end up on this more or less monastic lifestyle because he just didn't see any precedence for me being interested in that type of life. I was a guy, somebody who really enjoyed the good life. After about seven or eight years of doing this intensely more or less full time, by the end of that period, were they were quite concerned because our friends were getting married and getting law degree. Wait, Louis, you just skipped over a big thing there. So how many years have you been doing this full-time? About seven years full-time. So you did you drop out of college? No, no, I graduated from college.

I worked with the founder of the food and porium. He was starting a new venture that ended up not being successful. And then a very senior monk. So I had done two nine day retreats at this point. This monk from Burma was coming. I was like, I wonder what it's like with this, you know, this great master who from Burma. And I went up and I was blown away. I was incredibly impressed. And I realized I could study mindfulness the way that people at Johns Hopkins study for medicine. I could spend 10 years doing this and I wouldn't reach the end of a study. It would kind of be the foundation for more.

Okay, there are a thousand things we need to unpack in there. So at this point, you would graduate from college and you got a pretty conventional job working with a supermarket guy and you had done a few meditation retreats, you were in a meditation and you heard that this Burmese master was coming to IMS, the Insight Meditation Society, to teach a course. This guy's name was Saida Upandita. He's a Burmese guy and you go up and take the course and what happens. You know, it's funny. So I decided to ordain as a monk for this two-month period because that was a possibility and I figured why not do the full training. And Supermarket Dude was okay with you doing that? Well, he ended up selling that store, so it worked out.

Okay, yeah, that opportunity was over. You were out of your way. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I was at another job at store so so it worked out. Okay. Yeah, that opportunity was okay. Yeah Why was it another job at that point, but it was another career It was like I was in a job. It was clear. It wasn't a career I asked for a leave of absence. They said no and so then I made the decision It was worth leaving that to go and do this. Okay, so you're like 23 or something like that of 22 22 so Even here in the United States So even here in the United States, even though Upandita, the teacher, wasn't at his home teaching center, he was coming to the United States, even in that circumstance, you could ordain as one of his monks in Massachusetts. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the idea is that the monastic lifestyle is a training.

And so, and it's a very wholesome endeavor. The desire to let go of your normal, worldly situation and become a monk, even temporarily, is a form of letting go that is considered very, that instinct to move in that direction is considered a very wholesome instinct. And so, you know, has ordained thousands. It's very, when you ordain, you want to choose somebody a preceptor, the person who helps you become among, the most well-respected, the person who follows their

seal out of their virtue, the most fully and is well established in the practice. So it's wonderful to have that opportunity to have a teacher, a mentor, a benefactor like that. And for them, it's a good act too, to help people discover the path. It's a beneficial thing. So he has what they call seamahol. He initiated a seamahol at the Insight Meditation Society

so that he could ordain monks and nuns and they have one in California and all over the world. So you would see Mahal, you would walk into see Mahal, they shave your head, give you some robes and boom your monk. It's a little longer than that. And there are a few requirements that you need to fulfill to be able to just simple ones. You know, you can't be running away from debt. You have to be a man. You have to have the permission of your parents. You can't be a man. Not in the full ordination for monks that exist today. And then a little sexist? Well, no.

The Buddha was actually revolutionary in terms of ordaining women for the first time. But like everything, there are conditions that need to remain in place. So, he's got this room set up. You had to fulfill a few requirements. One of them, you had your an R still a man and you weren't running away from debt, although you were running away from job that you no longer cared to stay at. And they, I would assume, shaved your head and gave you some robes. And it was a two-month deal. And by the end, you were no longer. It's a training you take up and you can no longer, you, you, you, you, you, you, it's a training you take up, and you can put down the train.

So I could go be a monk for a little while. Yeah, absolutely. I'm an intern. I can do that. Do I have to shame my head? Yep. That's a letting go. It grows back.

Yeah, I guess so. I hope. So two months of doing this, uh, it was it revolutionary for you? It was, it was intense and it was moments of peace. And I guess it's like people go and play golf and they have a good golf shot and they replay that good golf shot over and over and over again in their head. And I think the same happens. It's like there's a lot of difficulty and there are moments of incredible peace

where you realize there's something unique and special here and that keeps you coming back. And meeting Saito Upandita, there was just something so anigmatic about him, and so powerful about him. I remember I walked in, for the, at the end they allowed us to have lunch in the same room with him. And I remember we walked into the room with him, and my room, my mind just went quiet. And my mind had never been quiet of chatter before. And so all of a sudden, it was a noticeable piece that was extraordinary pleasant. And I realized there's, you know, as I had done those first two nine day retreats with

the various teachers I studied with that there was something special that they had, I felt like with him, I could really spend a lot of time and learn a lot. But you make it sound somewhat supernatural, his impact on you. No, I mean I think all people are around other people sometime. Many of us have experiences. We go to a certain place, we feel a deep sense of peace, but I don't know if it was supernatural. It was, you know, he having known him over the course of the next 25 years, there was something very nice about spending time with him. It was like pleasant. He was an incredible being to be, to be around. Gotcha. Okay, that makes more sense. Yeah, I mean,

going to the Grand Canyon can still remind and view around somebody who's spent decades working on his mind in that way. I guess I could see how it would have a contagious effect. In fact, I know very well it could have a contagious effect. You hang around with great teachers. There is something to it. So you made reference to the fact that of the next 25 years. So it wasn't like you did this two month retreat and it was over. What happened? And before you answer that question, just by way of context, Sia da Upandita, and that's three words, the U, the U in the middle. So it's S-A-Y-A-D-A-W, which is basically the honorific for great teacher. His last name, and this is very common in Burma, the last name is preceded by just a standalone you and then P.A.N.

D.I.T.A. Pandita and he's written books you can go find them he taught He and his predecessor taught a lot of the people who founded IMS the I'm insight meditation society and that includes Joseph Goldstein my teacher Sharon Salisberg Jack Cornfield although Jack mainly studied under tie monk Ajahn Chah. And so you're basically basically, you're going IMS a lot and studying with these American teachers,

but then their teacher comes to town and you're like, oh, this is the guy. Yeah, well, the first teacher actually was, it was a Christmas retreat, new years retreat, with Jack Cornfield and a couple of other teachers. And that was a, you know that was an incredible first experience. It was a touching experience with loving kindness and, you know, it opened the heart. The second retreat I did was with a teacher, a German person who had been a monk in Burma

for 20-something years. So again, there was this reference to Burma and this connection to Burma, and then I met Saida Upandita. So that seemed to move me more in the direction of Burma. So after the two months, what happened? I was invited by one of the senior teachers on that retreat to continue with him in England. So he had a small house in England that was supported by a local Burmese community. And he basically said to me, you seem like you're pretty sincere and interested in this. And if you want to continue, you can come and stay in my center in England. And you said yes.

I said yes. And how long? What did that lead to? That was about a year in England. So still a monk. No, I wasn't a monk. So at the end of that two month period, I disrobed. And it was very difficult to, you know, you you know being a monk in the west is somewhat challenging

particularly if you're not Haven't been a monk before because you don't know all the rules and then your chance for in you know making infractions It's pretty high. So they like to like what would infraction be? Oh many touching money touching women You know drinking like you can't give your mama hug. No, shouldn't give your mama hug. And again, this is a very conservative interpretation of the rules, but, you know, the basic teaching is that you shouldn't touch the opposite sex with lust.

Well, it turns out the mind is very quick. So in the middle, even though it's your mother, in the middle, you may have some flash image of some, you know, beautiful woman you saw that arouses lust and you're, you know, then touching your mom. So you're breaking the rule. You're touching a woman while there's lust, even if it's for an instant or a millisecond or in your mind. And so to avoid that potential, which you'll later, the reason you don't want to break it is you'll feel regret. Your own conscience will let you know that you broke this rule. So it's better to then just avoid the whole circumstance which could lead to you having headaches.

Right. The remedies for them, but better not to have to take the remedy. I know. What about the remorse you might feel over causing your mother pain for not hugging her? Well, going back to one of the requirements to become a monk is you need the permission of your parents. I see, so they get it. They should. They should get it.

Right. Although I'm not sure your mom knew exactly what you signed up. Speaking of your mom, what did they think of like you went off to, you did this two month retreat, and then you went off to England for a year, and there's more to come, I think we can all into it. What were they thinking? I mean, I think she was growing increasingly concerned that I was doing a reputable harm

to my career and to my life. I think it was that simple. This isn't particularly the year during which our parents grew up, taking time off to go meditate wasn't just on the radar, doing it for two weeks or doing it for one month or one year or five, none of that was anywhere on the radar. So they were exceedingly concerned that I had made life decisions that were going to irreparably harm my future happiness and well-being. Are they right?

No, unfortunately. And I couldn't have predicted it. I just knew that this is an incredibly valuable practice. And when people came to understand what it was all about, they would take to it the way that I would. There is nothing unusual about me. My parents raised me to have, I think, more confidence, self-confidence than they realized. They gave me a very strong set of values

in terms of generosity in terms of morality in terms of I remember being taught that education is the one thing that can never be taken away from you. So here I was training in generosity, training in moral discipline, I virtue, and developing my mind which could never be taken away from me. It was all perfectly aligned with every value they taught me growing up. So when you say you had this increasing confidence to this practice, it was really valuable and could be good for everybody, take me into the heart of that. What about it was so obviously useful to you. You know, I think number one, just when we lose our happiness, when we become overwhelmed

with anger or frustration or sadness, I had never been taught a method to recover from that. And so all of a sudden, I started seeing there were things that I could do with my mind that would help me avoid those dramas. And if I did get caught up in a spell of something, I had a means that I could actually overcome it. And that was incredibly powerful. That's empowering.

When I can suffer from depression at times. And I know there's something I can do to overcome depression. That is incredibly liberating, rather than just feeling like you're always a victim to this state of mind that can come. So how do you, I suffer from depression occasionally too, so what do you do when depression descends? Well, I've had many years of investigating my mind at times when it's depressed and seeing what those, you know, variable emotions that arise together are. And so I recognize it now. There's also just been a shift in my whole, you know, relationship to things where the, you know, sadness or loneliness,

the depth of those emotions that used to arise have been, you know, they don't arise to that extent anymore. So, one, they may arise, but they've you know they don't arise to that extent anymore. So one, they may arise but they're not as sticky. And they don't arise as intensely. There's been a diminishment in their strength and if they do and again it's very heartening to know I have practices that I can do that will overcome those. It's not just waiting for them to go away. There's an antidote to them. And it just can do take me into like how that works the antidote. Sure. I mean, it's, you know, using the practices of loving kindness and mindfulness. Those two practices for me are, you know, very helpful in challenging any, whether it's physical

pain, mental pain, emotional pain that comes up, you know, loving kindness can soften or strengthen my mind or provide some peace within a very difficult emotional or physical circumstances. And mindfulness has that cutting through power. So some people may be vaguely familiar with those practices, but would love a little bit more detail. So let's just take a hypothetical. You're, you have a wife and a child, anybody who's in a committed relationship knows that that can, or anybody who has a child knows that that can be stressful. So you're having a bad day. How does it, and you're starting to feel anger or depressed or whatever, what do you actually

do with your mind on the most basic level of which practice do you pick and how do you use it? Well, I guess there's some intuitive feeling that I've developed in terms of how to work best with different components of my mind. Number one, by spending a lot of time on my cushion in retreats. These states all come and go. You know, the practice on retreat are the same basic elements we do every day. We stand up, we sit down, we eat, we go to the bathroom, we shower, we sit. And so we've learned to apply mindfulness to all of our activities throughout the day in everything we do. And so now when I come back to a daily life practice, so to say, when I'm walking from one

place to another, instead of, you know, projecting about what the future might bring or laminating about the past, I can just bring my attention back into the left right, left right, and I have full confidence of the power and the benefit of doing that. And I think that's the difference between a lot of beginners and somebody who's done the practice for a lot longer, is the people that have done it a lot longer know the profound benefit that these seemingly simple practices can have to transform the mind. So where somebody else may be doing it and then stopping after a few moments and saying, is this really worth it? Is this really going to work? I have no doubt that it's going to work and I just go into it full force.

That's interesting because I think that does happen to me. You know, that I mean, I do, I think by most measures of reasonable amount of meditation, but if I'm in a bad mood and that's not an uncommon occurrence and I decide to maybe practice, just focus on my breath, that kind of doubt can creep in of like, yes, is this going to help? But that does not happen with you. I mean, even if it were to happen, I'm not saying it never happens, even if it were to happen, it gets very little play in my mind and it gets knocked out really quickly because that's where it gets noted as doubt Yes, because that is simply a doubt and that never has a good You know fruit fruition in in my mind consciousness. Yeah, so so I took a son along digression there as is my want

But we're we're talking about what happened sort of the chronology here of what, like, so you went off to England for a year and then what happened after that? I came back and it was in the US spent some time at the Insight Meditation Society as a long term yogi, ended up organizing retreats to bring the Burmese monks over to the US in 1996 and 1997. We found it a non-profit. We started organizing these retreats, and then eventually after continued trips to Burma and retreats in the U.S., I ended up applying to a business school. Finally, after I had felt I reached a place that I wouldn't lose the benefit of what I had gained and I was strong enough and resilient

enough to apply it in all areas of my life. I decided to return and get a business degree, which was a great segue to a more traditional job. And it also allowed me a couple of extra years of practice through the application process. So it was a decision that seems to make a lot of sense. So you went to Wharton. Yes. And what was your idea?

I mean, you've done all this meditation. I would, some people would say, OK, after you've done all this meditation, don't you want to just keep being a monk? Why wait into the world in such a mercenary way? You know, I remember one time I was standing in somebody's, it was a fifth avenue apartment with a beautiful view of Central Park. And I just had the sense, I just come back from a retreat, I remember one time I was standing in somebody's it was a fifth avenue apartment with a beautiful Bureau of Central Park and I just had the sense I just come back from a retreat I think and I just had this sense that I was unique in the sense that I really had a hand in both these worlds

I was deeply committed and connected to this mindfulness practice and this tradition in Burma and I had incredible opportunities as a modern American male to you know to be successful in corporate America or traditional job roles. And I felt like that's who I am. And I had already seen it in my life. As I had gone off and spent these intense periods in meditation, I'd also come back and worked

on Wall Street for periods of time and in between intensive retreats. You know, seeing what did I really learn, what was permanent, what was just temporary, and so it was a good test to keep going back and forth. And it reminds me I was coming off of a retreat once and I was going to a dinner to honor my father actually. And I kept thinking like, oh, I'm going off retreat now and I'm going back retreat, because I was going back and forth between retreat and on retreat so many times. And I just realized at one point, like that didn't make sense anymore.

And if I wanted to be continuous in the practice, my off retreat had to be applying the practice as well. And so that's when my practice really became a lot more robust. It was like everything was an opportunity to practice rather than intensive retreat being the practice and the rest of it being what I'm trying to get away from so that I can go practice. So that was a big development in my growth and understanding of the value and where the practice could be applied. What, how did the other students respond to you as a former monk?

You know, it was fantastic actually. The response from people, Wharton gets incredibly successful people in a variety of different areas. The tie that binds the population of Wharton is that people have taken an interest in pursued something to an extraordinary extent. That could be finance, that could be being a monk. And so people were curious, and it gave them access. And, you know, I remember one of my friends who had gone to Yale undergrad, and here she was at Wharton Business School, and she came to my meditation class on campus, and she said, you know, I was feeling still feeling

insecure, even in class here. Like am I good enough or the other students going to do better? And she realized, if I don't address my insecurity now, then it'll be something that plagues me forever. And so she saw mindfulness as a tool to start turning inward and really figuring out what's going on. So people were captivated by it. It was interesting.

And they heard my story and they saw here I was applying for private banking jobs and I ended up with a summer job at Goldman Sachs and going to Morgan Stanley full time. So it was a success story for everybody. They took this guy who had been a monk and now he's a banker on Wall Street. Celebrity feuds are high stakes.

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which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. Did you were monastic training in your deep study of Buddhism not diminish your desire for financial success? No, I mean, again, from the belief and the cause and effect, having financial riches is the good effect. That's a good thing to have. I don't want to greedily pursue these things, but if you're, you know, I certainly remember when I was choosing a career, you seem to get paid a

lot more, picking up the phone and making a telephone call when you're doing it on a Wall Street trading desk than when you're doing it for a nonprofit. So recognizing the disparity in how our society rewards these things, I like my father recognized early. I do like comfortable life, and so it made sense to pursue something that that made sense. Also, when we were working for the monks, as an attendant, I would handle the money for the monks. And so you had to be a trustworthy person, and this ultimately is what wealth management is built on, is that you become a trusted person. And this ultimately is what wealth management is built on, is that you become a trusted advisor to people with money

and what they should do, and you should be looking out for their best interest and working on their behalf. And unfortunately, a lot of people don't do many years of monastic training first, but it's really the best foundation and the qualities you need to be a successful private banker, wealth manager. So we should say that that's what you ended up doing. You became a wealth management.

Yeah. Okay. So were you doing that? So after you graduated, you went as a wealth management, were you still off and on retreat? Oh, absolutely. So how did you balance that? You know, so business school was great. We had a lot of long holidays. Before starting my full-time job, we had two months off. I went and did a retreat. And I thought banking was going to be a career with a lot of stability that wouldn't provide a lot of opportunity for going off on intensive retreats. But there have been plenty of crises starting with 9-11 on which today we're having this conversation. I was working at Morgan Stanley at the time. Our training class was terminated shortly after the terrorist attacks. So that provided the first opportunity to go back

to Burma and do some meditation. And again, there were repeated opportunities to move between financial services firm because of global events and those provided opportunities for intensive practice. So I did many months and years of practice since. Anyment of moving to the region, right? Yeah, exactly.

I moved over to Singapore on one of my trips to Burma as the wealth management industry in Singapore was exploding. They wanted somebody with New York skills, but understood Asian culture. And so all of a sudden, the background in my training in Asia with monks started to show some of its first worldly benefits. So let me just go back to this money thing for a second because you say you your father recognized early that you like nice things. I like nice things so no judgment here but I mean I think a lot of people might be wondering, well, if you go and do that amount of meditation and you're that steeped in the process of letting go, why would you still remain so acutely equisitive? Why would you want to?

Wouldn't that diminish your desire for these nice things when you see through that their supposed value. Yeah, well, I wasn't, you know, after so many years of training, I wasn't going out and buying Gucci belts and Gucci shoes, and I wasn't spending my money that way. I saw that I could, you know, $100 at a monastery goes a great way, helping to support, you know, terribly poor people that are deeply devoted to this practice and are likely to be the next generation

of great teachers. They're living in very, very difficult circumstances. So the idea of being able to use wealth for the purpose of those types of things. I ended up recording, you know, making digital recordings of over a thousand talks of Saita Upandita. You know, that's a legacy that will give for a long, long time. And so that to buy digital recording equipment and all the tapes and All these things that takes money it takes resources. So there are plenty of great examples of lay people who have done you know

profoundly benefited the The the teachings in the world and so that was the the role model I think Saita saw me Amian and encouraged me to pursue. Right. Right back to the Buddha scriptures. The Buddha was hanging out with very wealthy people and kings. So he didn't have some sort of fundamental beef with power or financial success. He had, he didn't think they were inherently bad necessarily. Correct.

Although it could be misused. So tell me about your relationship with this teacher. So did you even speak the same language as the guy? Not so much. I mean, he understands English and would speak in some simple things to me in English, but he preferred to use a translator. But there was a heart to heart connection there. It was like an extended family member.

And it was funny, my grandmother in New York ended up meeting him one time. And she was somewhat skeptical before she met him, like, who's this guy? My son is so fascinated with. And they hit it off to you know, to an extraordinary degree where she would always affectionately refer to him and check in on him and he heard. It was like brothers and sisters from another, you know, from another mother, another

parts of the world, but they totally hit it off, and that really helped nurture this strong feeling of family and connectivity. So what was he like? Because we should say he, not too long ago, and you were, we'll talk about this, but he passed a couple of years ago. What was he like? You know, I think it depended upon who you were,

and that would be the aspect of Saita that was revealed to you. Yeah, because I've sometimes heard of him described as pretty stern. Yeah, I said that to him once. I said, I've heard all these stories that you're, you know, you're so tough, but I said you're like a little pussycat. And he just laughed. And because I think for me, that's what I needed.

I needed a benefactor who was very kind. I was very tough and driven myself. And so I didn't need an external manifestation of that. I needed somebody who could teach me to be more gentle and loving of myself. So that's how we represented. I think in the scriptures, they talk of four types of horses. One who sees the shadow of a whip and starts to run faster. One who hears the whip and starts to run faster.

One who gets a light whip and starts to run faster. One who hears the whip and starts to run faster, one who gets a light whip and starts to run faster, and one you really got a whip. So I was the shadow of the whip. All you had to do was fake ahead movement, and I was often running. So I was fortunate. And as I spent more time with him out of the retreat context, again, there was a lovely interpersonal. I mean, this is, you know, outside of my parents, the kindest person in the world to me over a period of 25 years. And I look back on that 25 years, and what he, the way he treated my wife and helped her, you know, work through her own issues and the way he taught me to treat my parents better and my family members, but like he's only been a beneficial influence of my life. And that's over a 25 period where I was spending, you know, three months or more a year with him. So there's a lot of data there, and I've never met another human being like that that

could so consistently just be perfect. Perfect. Perfect. You never put a foot wrong with me. No, With you. Interesting. And I don't think with my wife. So. So you met your wife through him? No, not at all. She came to a Wharton Business School party and I met her there. Got you. But she ended up studying with him.

Yeah. And she and she found him really, really beneficial. Yeah. So when he was stern, because I have Joseph Goldstein, my teacher who studied with him, the stories that I've heard of him his time with Penteente, he talks about him being really tough. So that may say more about Joseph than it does about Penteente. You know, I think a lot of the Western teachers, we came to meet Saita and the Burmese tradition

at different times in our learning. So I think Joseph and Sharon, they'd all spent time in India with various gurus and other meditation teachers, and then they met Mahasi Saida and Upandita. I don't think Mahasi Saida, by the way, was the predecessor to Upandita. Yes, go ahead. So I don't think it was their first introduction to the teachings.

Whereas for me, within the first year of having practiced, I was with him and I was with him more or less full time. So I think, you know, that framework and the perspective we came to the practice with, and I also had the benefit of coming and hearing that he was this great master. So I showed up with that level of respect. Whereas Joseph and Sharon, they had also studied with many other great teachers. So I can't speak for them, but I think that different background when we first met him may have influenced. And his job, then he was coming, and he saw this group of quote, teachers. And I think he had very clear ideas of what the standard of a teacher would be.

And he wanted to make sure that everyone lived up to that fully. Got you. Well, that makes that all makes sense. So what are you doing now? So I returned from Asia and I'm focused now with the growing interest in mindfulness and taking my background of intensive mindfulness and corporate America and bringing mindfulness to corporations. And how's that going?

You know, it's great. I'm blessed in incredible ways to get my foot in the door to work with companies and innovative individuals. I've created an online program that I think is fairly unique when I listen to many of the apps and teachings that are out there. They don't really focus on this particular tradition as exclusively, and this methodology, which has a lot of, you know, research backing it up is being very effective. And so I've just

tried to deliver it in a very approachable, accessible way that just seems so obvious. Yet, it's completely authentic and sticks to a tradition which millions of people have followed. And what's the, what, what do you brand it under? What, who, who are you working with? Like, give me that sort of. Sure. I mean, there's a growing list.

There's a standard chartered bank and I are, are going to be doing a program together. There's a hotel group in the UK, the GLH group, the largest owner operated. We did a bunch of programs for them to help them bring their corporate values and mission. You know, it's very easy to say, we want people to be great hosts, but you've got to develop those inter-quality

to be able to be great hosts. That's interesting. And many people in the hospitality industry, for example, particularly in the UK, these are immigrants that are working and serving people at four and five star hotels whose net worth is significantly higher than the people working in the hotel. And sometimes that can be intimidating to people. And so developing loving kindness, developing this feeling of you're a host, teaching the

tools of mindfulness so that you're not as reactive if a guest is getting upset, but you're more compassionate in your understanding that, oh, something triggered this person, and how do I want to respond, and how can I support them rather than getting more of a conflict with them? These are all very beneficial outcomes. I'm doing work with a couple of finance companies in the US now because they're interested in improving their sales force. One of the biggest problems in sales is a lack of ability to really listen and pay

attention. People are so quick to come up with an answer that they stop when we're thinking of the answer, we're no longer listening to the person talk. And so you miss a number of opportunities that might present themselves otherwise. Big problem in my line of work. Before we started recording you and I were talking a little bit about the fact that it's hard to start a business. I have my own company and it's hard. So tell me about the difficulties of getting this business off the ground and how you can use mindfulness and to your meditation practice to deal with the kind of economic struggles

that so many people are dealing with. Sure. I mean, I think number one, going back to how you can deal with stress better, you know, it turns out stress diminishes their IQ. And I think many entrepreneurs know we're frequently operating in high stress regularly. And so we need periods of time to recover from that, to get our balance back. We need to recognize when we've lost our balance. Because you know, we saw this in Singapore, people sit at their desks for many hours.

And productivity in Singapore is actually relatively low worldwide. And so that supports all the findings that sitting at your desk for longer and longer hours doesn't produce better outcomes. And so we need tools to teach, to enable us, to have greater resiliency, to have greater recovery. And so when I'm getting too stressed,

I can recognize that quickly. And I can take those recovery measures. I can sit and close my eyes, recognize what's going on, rebalance my attention, my focus. And I come out recharged and with greater clarity. And I also think, as an entrepreneur, you're making judgments all day that your life depends on. Your financial life in a life depends on your financial life

in a sense depends on them, the right call, successful business, the wrong call, you're out of business. And so having more clarity can be essential again, because the margins are so slim on the difference on the outcomes. So I think all these things, and I'm fortunate that, you know, I'm really passing down a proven tradition. So there's no failure here for me, whether I'm successful or not, I'm doing my best to make what I have found to be tremendously helpful on a more widely available, it's not widely available through all the apps I've heard. You know, they touch upon this particular technique, but it's not really offered

in the form that it is to go really deep with it. And I think there's a growing interest in being able to take some of these practices and going deeper. So how is it what you teach different than what my app or headspace or what I might learn if I go to a local meditation studio here in New York or LA or Austin or wherever. Well, I think going back to my earlier comment that the level of doubt when it comes to these practices and the benefits of these practices, so I have no doubt that this noting practice will take you the entire journey.

The psychologist call it affect labeling in the meditation tradition can be called noting or labeling. Can you describe for people what that is? Sure. It's just using everyday language to label what our experiences are. So we start with the rising and falling of the abdomen. And what our abdomen rises, we know it is rising or label it is rising rising and when it falls we label it is falling falling. And if we have thoughts or feelings we give each of these as thinking thinking or worrying, worrying, whatever the appropriate mental state that is arising or sensation that is arising we give it the label. And that helps us then relate to it from a more this passion perspective and an understanding

than about the quality, the nature of these phenomena that we're paying attention to. And so many people will talk about this technique and use it at different moments, but in the training that I did, this is useful 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And so when you pursue it with that degree of consistency and there isn't another option to go to, you become adept at it and you become skilled at it. And it's not just one of another meditation methods, it is the path. So the path toward what? Well, I think number one, the path towards suppressing a lot of the

negative states of mind and the path towards encouraging positive states of mind, some of which we've developed, some of which we haven't yet experienced developed. And as you do this from more and more, it goes from a temporary eradication of some of these states to a permanent uprooting of some of these states. You're talking about enlightenment here or awakening liberation. Eliberation from negative states of mind, absolutely. And that is like you so you you can achieve a level of liberation where you just never get unhappy again. You know, I understand that that is I haven't fully reached that, but I think I've spoken to people who seem to think that that is Yes, that is possible

But so if you're teaching some hotel workers or some financial managers or whatever this practice is there any chance Or you we're gonna have you do a little meditation here Is there any chance that I'm gonna reach that level of liberation or some Is there any chance that I'm going to reach that level of liberation or some Cousin of it sure if you're well if you're not doing that practice You're not going to reach it So if you are doing it then you're certainly starting to walk in the right direction Absolutely and that's why but but but the people who you've talked to seem to be pretty far in that direction These are

Olympic level meditators. They're monks. What do I have as a regular guy? The timeline perspective of spiritual practice is so much larger than who we were born in this life. My connection to this practice is much deeper than Andrew Scheffer, who showed up in 1968. I had a strong affinity to this practice. It seemed somewhat natural and intuitive to me.

I believe we've all been doing this practice for a while. Anybody who's doing it now has been doing it for a while. Exactly. Now you're talking about karma and rebirth. Yeah. And so we don't have to use that language. It doesn't matter. I think there's no, this story you're telling yourself,

oh, I'm Dan Harris and I'm just a guy who's got a job and I did that, I don't ignore that story. That's the story you may tell yourself. It's not the story I'm telling myself about you. What's that story? That story is that you have this, you know, same potential that I have, and if you do the same practices, just like the people before us who did these practices produced incredible results, we will.

We are walking that same path, and this is what that path leads to those incredible life altering results. So you have such an, I mean, now that you're kind of branding under this idea of the Wharton Monk, which I think is really cool. Is this an interesting combination? Because in the one hand, you talk about science, you went to Wharton, you're very much in the world. You know, you're starting a business, you've been a wealth manager. In the other hand, you know, you, some of the metaphysics of Buddhism, like you're, you're

down with that stuff. So it's a really interesting combo from my standpoint. Yeah, I mean, I, I, when I, when people ask me, you know, what, what faith do you follow? When I, when I look for teachings to understand my place in this world and how the world works, I do look to the, the Buddhist teachings. And is that a problem for you and a corporate, if you add somebody who wants to come into a corporate context and teach meditation, is that an issue? No, because I don't mention it.

It's irrelevant. I teach you a practice. It's as useful in corporate America as it is in a monastery in Burma. There's nothing religious paying attention and recognizing what's going on. There's nothing religious. There's no belief. It is. You're telling me what's going on for you and nothing religious, there's no belief, it is, you're telling me

what's going on for you and how you're identifying in label. I'm giving you some very simple instructions. What's amazing is how quickly that produces results in people from all walks of life and all face. And like the Buddha, you're basically saying, so yeah, I happen to believe in karma, rebirth, enlightenment, but you don't have to. You can if you want to. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't, you don't have to believe in that stuff to do the practice. Absolutely not. And these aren't conversations. I have, you know, the way my style doesn't elicit these guys like, hey, what happened

and how did you know it? You know, if you start talking about this and speculating on that, it's irrelevant. You're not doing, now you're speculating and label it as speculating. Before we do a little meditating, where do people want to get more information about you can they go? So, I have a couple of websites. One is Andrew Shefford.com. People can SMS me at 415-528-7403.

You're giving out your cell number on my podcast. No, this is a message. I can, the message I should write is Warden Monk. And then they'll be able to get signed up for my list and I'll be able to follow up with them. And that's, those two are good places to get started. All right, okay. Are you down doing it?

It's for doing a little meditation. Sure, absolutely. Like 10 minutes, something like that. 10 right, okay. Are you down doing it? It's for doing a little meditation. Sure, absolutely. Like 10 minutes, something like that. 10 minutes? Yeah, great. Okay, I'm going to take the headphones off just because it's more comfortable for me. And I'm getting a thumbs up in the back, so.

Terrific. Those my eyes. Okay, so we're going to begin by closing our eyes and bringing our attention inward. And frequently at the beginning, I like to just take a quick scan or inventory of my body and the sensations in the body. So frequently, I'll start at the top of my head and bring my attention to my forehead and my eyes.

And sometimes, I'll feel pressure or tension or throbbing there. And that quick awareness just allows me to recognize and let go or relax a little bit. And then I'll bring, continue to bring my attention to my cheeks and my mouth, and my neck and my shoulders. And I hold a lot of stress in my shoulders. And I hold a lot of stress in my shoulders. So usually by simply focusing there for an instant, I can let go of some of that tension. And then I continue down to the chest in the back, the abdomen, the budice touching the cushion, my thighs and knees,

and feet touching the floor. So now we just find ourselves sitting here with our eyes closed, our body sitting somewhat relaxed. And as we sit still, we want to try to direct our attention to the movement of the abdomen, the rising and falling of our stomach area as it happens naturally with the breath. It's been doing it all day, all night, a week, a month, our whole lives, our breath is happening on its own. And so what we're doing when we practice mindfulness is we use our breath and our abdomen simply

because it's meant to be the most obvious sensation in the body because it's the only be the most obvious sensation in the body, because it's the only part of us that's moving. And as it rises and fills with air naturally on its own, we're just going to gently label it as rising, rising. And as the air is expelled and the abdomen falls, we're going to label it as falling falling. So I'll be quiet for a few minutes and give you the chance to connect to your own rising and falling.

And you can feel free to put your hands to touch your abdomen lightly if that helps bring your attention there and tune in to the sensations. Just remember as the rising happens we're going to note it or label it as rising rising and as the air is expelled and the falling happens, we're going to label it as falling falling. Now as we sit for slightly longer, we may start to notice other sensations in our body. We may notice thoughts or thinking the mind could be racing or planning. And it's good to recognize these different sensations and feelings. And once we recognize that our attention is focused on them or absorbed in them, at some point we may be able to redirect the attention as the next rising or falling happens naturally

on its own. And then we would just resume the noting of rising or falling. And it's not uncommon for our mind to pick up the habits it's been engaged in today, earlier in the day, if we've been doing a lot of thinking or planning. It's very likely that that'll take over our mind again. And it can be very helpful to use the node or label to recognize what's happening for us. If it's thinking, then we label it as thinking thinking. If it's planning, we can label it as planning. And sometimes we hear sounds, it could be background sounds, noises. We may find ourselves

listening or hearing these things. And again, wherever our attention goes, we can recognize this, give it the appropriate label. And then after a few notes or labels, we can try to gently work our attention back to the next rising or falling as it happens naturally. So I'll be quiet again and let you reconnect with your rising and falling. And give you the chance to note or label other thoughts, sounds, sensations that arise before returning to the next rising or falling as it happens naturally. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw Again, other mental activity can sneak up on us. We may find ourselves thinking or imagining, or we may find the mind becoming calmer, tranquil, relaxed. And again, these are other phenomena, sensations, to be noticed and noted or labeled.

And then refocus the attention on the next rising or falling, and label it as rising or falling. Sometimes when we're paying attention to the rising or falling, we may notice characteristics of the pressure or movement, or we may notice the form or the manner, deep or shallow. And there'll be many things we come to know when we pay attention. But we wanna keep coming back to the labeling of rising or falling. It helps us refocus. I'll bring your attention back to the sitting posture and the awareness of the full body. And after your next rising, you can open your eyes.

Thank you very much. Not the pleasure. Well done. Awesome. You're good to go. Great. Thank you, boss. Thank you.

Okay. So that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. Please take a minute to leave us a rating and a review. And if you want to suggest topics or guests for the show, just hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. Special thanks to Lauren Efron, Joshan, and the rest of the team here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. And remember, we're now on Tune-in. You can hear our new episodes there five days early on Fridays through the end of this

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