Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 110: Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, 'The Lost Art of Good Conversation'

Episode Date: November 29, 2017

Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, the head of the Shambhala Buddhist lineage and Shambhala International, has a new book out called, "The Lost Art of Good Conversation: A Mindful Way to Connect with Others and Enrich Everyday Life" -- poignant for this time of deep divisions in the U.S. and abroad. Born in Bodhagaya, India but bought up in the West, Sakyong Mipham who talks about how conversation is powerful because it begins with recognizing that "there's another person" with you, and he says, as a married father of three, getting frustrated with your kids is just "part of the path." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. What's up? What's up?

From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Check out this title, Sakiung, Jamgon, Mipam, Rinpoche. I don't even think that's the full title. People call him Sakyung Mipam, just for short, as if that were not a mouthful as well. Fascinating guy, he's got a new book out called The Lost Art of Good Conversation, which I think we can all agree is really important at this time

of deep, deep divisions, not only in the United States, but around the planet. He is the head of the Shambhala Buddhist lineage, Shambhala International, which is a network of local meditation centers all over the world. He's based in Boulder, Colorado. They also have a big center up in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and many of the major cities of North America. The really interesting group, his dad founded it. And his dad, we've talked about on this podcast in the past, widely, widely respected, very much seen as a really smart teacher, great writer, but also controversial in some ways that he has discussed. And Saka and Mepam is his son will say you'll hear us talk about this. I was I was part of the book launch and they invited me very kindly to say a few words on stage at the book launch and I did a lot of swearing, which probably wasn't the best idea. So you'll hear him gently chide me for that. So here we go. Saka on me. So here we go, Saka on Mipam. Well, thank you for doing this.

Today. To be here, you know. I always ask the first question, which is the same question, which is how did you get into meditation? I think your answer is going to be very interesting. Well, I guess I was born into it. Yeah. So if you believe in karma, I guess I was, I chose to be here, so to speak, but yes, I was

sort of born into this tradition and this life and this way of living. So your father, tell us about your dad. Well, my father, the venerable Chergame Toguro Maché, was a preeminent Lama and spiritual leader in Tibet, and then he escaped Tibet in 1959, and then he proceeded to Oxford University, and he studied there. And he studied philosophy and comparative religions, and he was sort of one of the last of the great masters trained, actually, in Tibet. And then he basically wanted to know how to take that tradition and go for it, and then he basically began to teach in the West, first in England, and then eventually in the United States.

And he, you know, began to teach meditation, and he's really known as being sort of one of the most, you know, forefather as a preeminent people to bring Buddhism to the West, meditation, mindfulness, a lot of these activities. So, and then, you know, he established sort of the continued lineage, Shambhalla, which we have centers now and established in the European University, which in Boulder, in Boulder, Colorado, which is still there and thriving. And so then, yeah, and I think he continued to teach and so to that sort of, you know, how I come into the story.

So, I would, I'm far from being an expert on your dad, Chogim, Trunkba, Rinpoche, and barely pronounces name, so something about my expertise. But I've read a little bit about him and from him I've interviewed many of his followers and I'm quite close with some people who are early followers of his. So I know a little bit. But based on the little I know, you guys are pretty different. I mean, your dad was known for something called Crazy Wisdom. He had a pretty heavy drinker.

There was some stuff about him, you know, with his relationships of some of his followers being kind of intimate and widespread. You seem not that way at all. I mean, why is it not crazy? So you're just talking a little bit about the differences and whether your style is a reaction to his? Well, I think we're just two different people. I think that's one of the things about lineage or how you want to think about it. I mean, I think he was sort of, in many was, reflecting of the time in terms of what was

happening in the late 60s and 70s. And I think also he did hold this tradition of just sort of taking spirituality and trying to really practice it in sort of everyday life. And for myself, it's been, you know, organic journey. And I think, as you know, it's like how do you continue something? And I think he had to be, I think, very bold and he had to be very kind of daring in many ways to come into this culture and he assimilated.

And, you know, that culture was the was the early hippies and that kind of energy that was going on. And so I think it was who he was and also probably some kind of reaction. And part of it, the teaching is really trying to understand the culture in. And for myself, I've never been in the mindset you can say to necessarily compare myself to him, but rather

just taking the essence of the transmission that I receive from him and continuing that forward. So, I don't know if that's a compliment or not. I'll set it aside. I hadn't think about it in those terms. So you said you were born into it. How early did you start getting meditation instructions, spiritual education? When did that start? I was born in India in Bodhgaya, which is the place of the Buddha's enlightenment and my mother who was also from Tibet and was trained and none and practicing and so I I was

Group in India during that period where all the Tibetans were refugees and so we were establishing Communities and monasteries and things like that. So I remember very young you know being in ceremonies and pooies and things like that. So I remember very young, you know being in ceremonies and poojas and things like that. Poojas meaning prayer ceremonies. Ceremony is just and whether it's chanting and just sort of sort of the usual deeper meditations and things like that. So that was part of just my upbringing and then when I joined my father in Scotland actually, and that's where I joined him. So before he came to the US? Before he came to the US, he came back over to India and then basically

he wondered me to come with him and he said, it's really time for your training to start. How old were you then? I was about eight. Okay, that's pretty early. And so then I would say, but on my own accord and my under unbiased sort of, what's the bit that I was probably on on 12 where I had a regular meditation practice. And I did that daily. Twelve, okay.

So at what point did you know, okay, this is what I'm going to do in my life? Well, I think pretty early on, even my mother-tell stories of myself wanting to immediately go to the monastery and be in the ceremonies. And I remember very much like having attendance in is not just because I think I was, you know, the son of my father. I had personal sort of drawn, I would say, and that's not necessarily true just because you're Tibetan or whatever it may be. I think it's very individual. So that was something that I've always had. Even my father would say, you know, you should do some other things, but I think he was happy that I was obviously getting involved.

And it was also like, you need to make up your own mind about this. So that was always, it was never a pressure from that point of view. Did you do any regular kid stuff or you know, video games and comic books and movies or were you like all about Buddhism? No, I mean, I did other things. I played sports. You know, that was something that I really enjoyed. And, you know, obviously, the culture in terms of movies and things like that.

And so I assimilated, you know, I mean, I was as normal as you can be with my background. And sort of that's something that's sort of been, obviously, kind of a lifelong journey, I would say, kind of balancing the whole situation, sort of being a bit of a bridge from that point of view. Culturally and spiritually and so forth. Did you live with your dad the whole your whole childhood or were you around for the, I would I don't again, I don't know all the history, but I believe he had operations in Boulder, and then also in Halifax, of a school. Were-around for all of that because I know he remarried at some point. He did, and I think that because I was with my mother in India, and then when I was in England, you know, I stayed, so I was with him, and you know, he was with him a lot, and I mean, I still

attended, sort of, some of the teachings. I think as I got older, I was with him more because he wanted me to attend more of the meditations and what was happening at the time. It was basically there through that process and he initially went to Boulder. And he did most of his teaching from that as a base. And then later it was Halifax Nova Scotia.

And did some of the turmoil of his life, maybe the turmoil is not the right word, but did that impact you in any way? Of course, I mean, in terms of myself following, I think there was a lot of when he passed away, there was a lot of grief, and there was a lot of sort of in holes in people's lives. And also I think having a sense of continuity and having a sense of lineage and that responsibility and I was very young when he passed away. How old were you?

I was 22. And so, you know, he kind of said, I think, you know, you're going to have to, I've done what I can and you're going to have to do the rest here. And so he was, you know, kind of trying to pass that over. That's a lot. It is. And then after that, I actually went, one of the great sort of teachers, That's a lot. It is and then after that I actually went One of the great sort of teachers. He's a one of Stingo, Chinsa, Rombache

Who's one of the great Masters of that you know these days But he was almost like a grandfather figure. He actually enumerated my father in Tibet He trained him too. He later, you know, obviously taught the Dalai Lama and many important teachers. And so he basically did the cremation rights and everything like that. And then, you know, he said, you need to come with me and we need to do some further training. So then I left US and then I went and lived with him after that for many years and then continue my training back

in India. When you were a pro. I've heard of Dilbo Ked, say, Rinpoche, I mean, he's in the, there's a documentary about your dad's life. I believe he's called crazy wisdom. And you see the footage of of this great master presiding over the funeral ceremonies. And I had heard tell of him even before I saw the documentary about what a great teacher he was. So when you

went and lived with him, what was that like? Was it all day, everyday, meditation, what specific kinds of meditation were you doing? It was it was pretty much every day. So even when there was breaks, there was something else going on. So he was a preeminent scholar and meditator and he really was sort of like the teacher of teachers and also incredibly just sort of kind and warm person and by the way excellent compensation list but he was he was basically, you know, very kind of human, I would say and you know, he had a lot of deep love for kind of the human connection, I would say.

And so usually, there was annual practices, it was teaching, there was reading transmissions, empowerment going on. And so this was at a monastery in Nepal and then he would you know be invited to various places and Teach so I think he very much took it felt it was a responsibility to Continuing in fact he said you know he and my father had a kind of an agreement of what Training wasn't complete. He would finish. So that sort of felt very held and protected in that way and very fortunate. What would you, can you say you're now

at the head of this Shambhala tradition? What would you say the core mission and message is of Shambhala? The main I think is what we call sort of establishing enlightened society. And I think one of the essential elements is to really living the spirituality, or living the meditation, or living that aspect. And one of the main messages, I would say,

or the way the inspiration comes about, is regarding humanity to be basically good. So there's a sense of actually regarding the person to be good and approaching life from the point of view of goodness at that kind of deep level. And, you know, I think the other real aspect is how to live with some kind of bravery, which we call a sense of worship, not aggressive worship, but actually living within the challenge of what is happening. And it's sort of drawn from that warrior spirit of how to actually engage as opposed to maybe run away or try to hide from it. So it's trying to bring that element into it.

So that's part of the kind of inspiration for Shambhala. So let me break those down. It was two very interesting things. The first is that the essential view is that people are basically good. People are busy. We don't live in a time in this country where I think people think that of their fellow countrymen

and women. We are incredibly divided. How do you instill this message that you're talking about now that actually human beings are basically good? Well, I mean, I think when we talk about this, that's a very kind of immediate reaction. I think we all feel like most people are good, but there's always a few people who are not good. And I think we have that kind of tendency. I think we all feel like most people are good, but there's always a few people who are not good. And I think we have that kind of tendency. I think it's a very challenging statement and view.

And one of the things that I always reflect on is that that was sort of the last view or inspiration of wisdom, how do you think about it, that my father passed to me. And he really experienced sort of the escaping from Tibet. I think he experienced sort of the worst of humanity in many ways. So it's interesting coming from somebody who really experienced tragedy, loss, incredible violence.

And then his problem was if humanity is going to go forward, we have to be able to respect the person. And I think good here is not necessarily good versus bad, but there's some kind of humanity is complete whole whole. There's a there's a innate sense of each person has a prerogative of having some kind of basic dignity. So I don't think it's

necessarily more holistic. It's more looking at the human being is not false ed or there's a sense of guilt writing over, but there's some kind of innate healthiness or some kind of sanity there. And how are you going to begin to approach your own mind and others and how are you going to relate to that. So I think part of the journey is can you relate to yourself that way? How do you regard yourself? Do you regard yourself as basically good or not or or complete or is it? Are you fundamentally at fault? And then the whole world's at fault. So I think it's on the one hand looking at it from sort of a holistic point of view. I said I was going to break that down and talk about both sides of it, but I'm now looking

at the clock and realizing you have a whole day of retreats to get to, and we haven't yet even gotten to your book. So I'm going to put a pin in that and invite you back at a later time to talk about warriorship, because I think it's very important in the way you define it. But you have this new book called The Lost Art of Good Conversation, a mindful way to connect with others and enrich everyday life. Why this book, why now? Well, one of the things, as you know, as a meditator and as a practitioner, I feel like that there's a lot of interest these days. And to me, part of that is where is that,

a lot of the reasons for that is people's stress and overwhelm right now. And so to me, there was never a disconnect from meditation and society. And one of the things that I really felt like was that actually a lot of pain and sort of dissatisfaction in people are feeling is often with their interpersonal relationships in terms of how they're relating to others,

how they're relating to the world. So bringing that theme of just how we relate to ourselves in meditation in terms of friendliness and paying attention and care and just a sense of your own presence and dignity when you're meditate, that can actually be applied in a very simple way to daily activities and conversation is one of those activities that we all do. And so it was like, how can we, and especially this time, because it feels like there's, you know, hard fill communication and basic human communication is breaking down.

And it seems like obviously with our technology, there's more communication on the hand. At the same time, there seems to be more disconnect at some kind of human level. So my inspiration was very much like, let's sort of try to encourage the human connectivity. Regardless of whatever view you have of life, we all connect at that kind of level. And to me, I mean, conversation and that human connectivity is simple, but if you just multiply how many little conversations we're having around the world, it's millions and billions, and that's just having an effect on our basic atmosphere in terms of how we regard each other. People often, you know, when you're having conversation,

part of the issue is do you actually just, you know, you actually acknowledge the other person and hold that kind of space? And so it's, I think it's a time where we're all challenged and it comes back to the sense of, you know, how do we learn somebody else? And then do we respect them? And so, you know, I think it's a very powerful time that way. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting.

Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego

in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So let's get practical. Do you ever watch the Chappelle Show? You know what that is? Which one?

Dave Chappelle. Oh yeah. Yeah, good. Shepel show. I firmly believe it's the funniest TV show in the history of television. Dave Shepel, the most brilliant comedian in modern times. In my view, again, he has this little skit

in it where he's at dinner and some guy comes up and interrupts his dinner with his wife and starts pitching him on some idea. And you see Dave's listen ostensibly listening to this person who's interrupted his dinner, but they have these thought bubbles over his head, that all these random things are coming up and the thought bubbles like somebody had a wine

and cheese party beating somebody up for not telling him how good the cheese was gonna be and Dave Shebel's dancing around in a sheep outfit. It's very funny. It's just an example of how we get lost in the middle of conversations with other people all the time. I think it's universally relatable this phenomenon.

How do you deal with that? Let's just start there as a meditation teacher, master, leader of this tradition. What do you say to people who say, well, like sometimes I just can't stay focused on another human being who's right in front of me? Well, I think conversation is allowing

for I mean in a very basic way, it's somebody just acknowledging there's another person living in the world. So often it's about us and what we think of the other person. So I think it's a moment where it's actually sort of We can't either acknowledge somebody or not and there's a moment where we's actually sort of, we can either acknowledge somebody or not. And there's a moment where we can sort of just say, oh, it's almost take, do we have the consciousness to see what's going on with them? So there's a moment I feel like just sort of being present in that moment.

So it's not always having the right answer or necessarily those thoughts are, It's bad. We all have them. We're thinking about other things But in that moment can just be there for that person in that way and so it's almost like respecting the basic human connectivity and And I think it doesn't have to be long. It's just being then there in that moment. What do you what are the basic skills? That you would recommend we all work to train in order to get better at this art of good conversation? Curiosity and, and, and, and, say, patients. I think just being curious that there's somebody else there.

And often what happens, we have these very road conversations or it becomes very superficial. And so it's like this is actually not only just sort of shallowing our own life but somebody else's life. So there's a quality of how can we actually, because I feel like part of the conversation is it can be an enriching experience or can be sort of a shallow experience. And a lot of that is just sort of how we approach it. And you know, I think just holding our mind there for instead of just going through our usual routine, just being there for that moment and just having a little bit of patience. Because if you are approaching the conversation, assuming you know what's going to be said, you've dulled all of your faculties going into the thing as opposed to being curious and hearing something that might be interesting. Exactly. I think a lot of you do with feeling just being in a moment just realizing it's only human being.

As soon as you begin to project the conversations we're not going to where we're kind of in our own thought bubble again. And so we're not really coming up. We're not learning and we're not growing and I feel like. coming out, we're not learning and we're not growing. And I feel like it's not like every conversation has to be that way. But if life becomes a sense of just everything becomes very dulled, then I think it begins to affect our own energy, relationship we no longer, or partners of a married or whatever it may be, the world becomes very grave on that point of view. And I think, you know, there is a lot of wisdom. There's a lot of, you know, sort of warmth. And I think for most of us, we remember small

conversations that have changed our life or our day. And we've also recognized conversations where we were not seen and we were sort of disempowered and then it affects the rest of our day. So it's like, we have a lot of power in that little moment. That happens to you, even with your... That nice outfit. It does, certainly. When did you... What context can that happen to you? Well, I think a lot of times is that people,

as you probably have experienced, come with a particular agenda, and they want to get something. Yeah. And then I think that I always say, in terms of like a spiritual tradition, I said, a lot of it's just connecting, even if you're a tissue to human being. So a lot of it's just connecting with, you know, sort of the, you know, mundane quality of life.

As opposed to every conversation has to be deep. You can just connect on some human level. A you and I are both family men. You've got three kids, I believe. We both have two year olds at home and wives conversation with two year olds is difficult at baseline conversation with your spouse is always, you know,

not always, but Ken sometimes be tricky. How do you manage those? Well, when I told my wife that I was writing a book in conversation, she laughed. Why? Because I think she's the better conversation, less, right? And also, sometimes I'm just quiet. So I'm sitting there and she wants to talk and I have kind of a section of like, when she's going to get to the point. And I realized like, and you realize like, you know, I she's going to get to the point, you know, and I realized like, and you realize like, you know, I was with her. One of the things I realized was especially when

we first come here and it's like, this is not, there does not have to have a point. It's just being there. And this is obviously, and also this conversation is not going to end. It's just going to keep going on. And you know, once I relax and realize, oh, this is just, you know, I have to be as a human being as opposed to there's a lecture or something going on. And so I think that was an interesting thing. And I think the way that she just enjoys, you know,

talking and being there. Is she Western or Tibetan? She's Tibetan. Okay. I don't think it matters. No, I'm curious. Just curious. Yeah.

And what about conflicts with your kids? How do you manage those conversationally? Well, I think one of the main things is that you have to obviously treat them as a human being. It's like, what are they experiencing? And so I think when you slow down and try to see what's going on, then also you have to be a bit of a guide in terms of how they navigate what's going on, then also you have to be a guide in terms of how they navigate what's going on. So what were you used?

What were you don't use? How to bring in, how to bring in just being there with them? I think a lot of it is just providing a space for them. We ever lose your temper. Oh yeah, of course. Really with the kids. No, well, in terms of getting irritated and things like that, I'm sure.

I'm not saying like turning it right and purple and screaming at them, but every once in a while, maybe find that you're angry. I would say that that's part of the path. Part of the path, right? Not to deny that you have these emotions in the first place. Not at all. I mean, I think you're tired or there's things going on.

So there's just working with what's happening as opposed to pretending it's not happening. Last night you had your book lunch party in New York. I believe you've been doing them in Boulder, New York, in Toronto. And part of the event was, Lojo Rinsler, who's also in the Shambhala tradition. Lojo is a great teacher here based in New York City

and also a previous guest on this podcast. He brought up a group of varying people to sort of a series of people to talk about conversation. And I went first because I had to get home to put my kid to bed and I did what I usually do, which is I used a lot of profanity and I had a few questions and then I realized as I was walking out that when I had been Leaping through your book you say don't use profanity. So am I in trouble? Did I run a foul of your rule? Give it to me straight. No, it was it was colorful. Well, I think it's it's like when I was watching what you were doing, you were talking about your own experience in terms of like what's happening in your mind in terms of meditation and how it's like when I was watching what you were doing, you were talking about your own experience in terms of like,

what's happening in your mind in terms of meditation and how it's helped you. So I thought that was really helpful in terms of, because I think people have those kinds of expletives in their head. Well, I can always speak for myself. There are a lot of them. So your point about profanity is,

don't use it in what? I guess what I'm drawing from what you're saying now and maybe you're just trying to be careful not to criticize me on my own show, but which by the way you shouldn't worry about because I like people who criticize me. But I'm kind of taking from what you just said that it's okay if you're talking about your own experience and your own inner monologue and it may be a little dirty at times, but it's the casual use of profanity, maybe to run down another human being or to complain that is that is more corrosive. Yeah, I guess in the context of like being self-deplicating and

in terms of what's going on with you, you know, it could be seen as a sign of humbleness and also just sort of truth. And I also, I mean, I think it could be seen as a sign of humbleness and also just sort of truth. And I also, I mean, I think one of the basic things with the conversation is, what are you doing? You have power over your speech. You have power of how you're going to communicate. And so you can either uplift somebody or push them down. And so whether it's profanity or slight, even if it's not using profanity, just your tone,

it's like, is that your view and life when you're trying to push people down? And on the one hand, it's like, you know, what is that going to result in? And a lot of things that we say or do are going to come back and are going to be there later. So there is a moment of, we do have a choice. And it's become very sort of acceptable that we just sort of criticize each other. And on the one hand, it is like this, a critique, and then there's a different way, you're just actually, you know, harming somebody,

and even if it's very slight, you begin to say that up, and especially young people, you know. You're creating negative mental energy that whether you see it or not stays with you, the buddhist would call this karma. Yeah, so no, I think almost like these vapors are in the atmosphere and they're just sort of sitting there. And so the one hand, because you can't see words, you just think it's not physical, it just doesn't matter what I say, but it does. It has a lot of effect. And I think it begins to affect, you absorb that energy, it's in you, you think about it,

you say it or somebody else, often when you are a person, somebody somebody is a person, somebody else is like you're creating a chain. And is that what I want to do? That's what you want to go ahead. But if you don't, here's an opportunity. And then also, I think sometimes mixing it up. So if you find yourself critiquing a lot, then add a compliment or try to uplift situation. Sometimes if you're to itself deprecating, you know, try to be a little more honest or expression self, I mean, I think it's not so much just being good in the conventional way, but there's a sense of using speech in a, you

know, appropriate way. It's such an area, it's such a tricky area in which to apply mindfulness, because it's it's not just you with your eyes closed on the cushion, you are interrelating with another human being. There's all these habits and the kick-in, these subconscious judgments and patterns that get triggered. It is a really tricky area in which to apply mindfulness. Well, when you think about your thoughts, what are most of your thoughts?

I mean, they're either about your thoughts, what are most of your thoughts? I mean, they're either about you or somebody else. And even if they're about you, there are a lot of times what other people think of you. So it's an immediate, I mean, their society's already on your head. So you're having that internal conversation, and then now you're having that conversation physically with somebody else. And so I think that's one of the things that we have the opportunity to influence in many ways, like our speech or how we relate. So on the one hand, it is challenging and

it's difficult, but I think we do have that opportunity and people navigate it. And I think that I think one of the main thing with mindfulness is that if you're present, you're able to determine and have some influence in the future. So how you think and behave now begins to affect how you're going to go forward. If you're just in a reactionary mode and you're not initiating something, then you're going to be living in that sort of misguided environment in the future. So it's living with intention or integrity, however you want to think about it. But I think life is, you know, it's like a river, it's a force and you're participating in often things like writing a horse

that's running away. And you're trying to sort of gain control, but the control doesn't have to be forceful, but it has to, but it can be more centered. I'm going to make this the last question, because I'm worried about making you late. Why is this so important? You know, in this era in which there's so many ways that we can express ourselves on the internet, face to face, at a protest, in conversation. Why is this subject in your view so important? And what can we do to be on the right side? I think more than ever right now, it's, you know,

we're humanity or how we're going forward. I think there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of hopelessness, there's wondering where we're going, and I think there's a lot of hopelessness. There's wondering where we're going. And I think there's a lot of feeling powerless. But I think with how we relate to one other person, we do have some influence. And even though we may not get the right reaction, we have a way of actually just shifting the energy of the world.

And so I believe that one conversation with one person can can add up and it can actually begin to shift as simple as it is because many ways when you have that moment of interaction, it's your ethics, it's how you view life, it's how you regard somebody else, it's your own self-respect. So right now I think all those things are being challenged. People are a lot of the issues that are going around the world are people are not seen, you know, the basic dignity or the people are not acknowledged. So we can actually be brave and actually begin to acknowledge somebody in a very simple way, and that begins to have a chain reaction. So I think a lot of the issues, a violence, a lot of the issues that are going on now,

is this sort of fundamental disconnect. And I feel like, you know, good-hearted human connectivity is essential. And we have so much technology, but that's essential for building the future. Yeah, so it seems like the core, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm usually wrong. The core of what you're saying is the first and most important thing you can do in conversation is actually recognize that you're talking to another human being right now, that there's somebody who matters in the universe outside of you. And that move is the first step toward creating a, this goes on a little grandiose, but

it a better world. I agree. I mean, I think it's basically, in that moment, I consider it like, hello, it's like a human empowerment. It's just, like, there's a moment of openness. Nobody says hello to close up. It's like, hello. And so you have that moment, there's that space where you acknowledge another human being. And that, that human, you know, it's like a child being born is a profound experience

because we're all existing, we're living on this thing. And at the very basic level, we're all here wondering what's going to happen. And at that moment, it's actually acknowledging that situation. And it's primal or simple. And it can easily get sort of buried and complicated. And, you know, so I feel like that's happening really at every conversation. It's like we're just being born. A translation that I'm making up on the spot for Hello, a proper hello might be I see you.

I see you exactly. Good to be seen, good to see you. Thank you very much for coming in really appreciate it. Thank you. Congratulations on the new look. Right, thank you very much. Okay, so that does it for another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast. Please take a minute to leave us a rating and a review.

And if you want to suggest topics or guests for the show, just hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. Special thanks to Lauren Efron, Josh Cohan, and the rest of the team here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. And remember, we're now on Tune-In. You can hear our new episodes there five days early on Fridays through the end of this year. Thank you for listening. I'll talk to you next week. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.