Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 111: Ginger Zee, ABC News Chief Meteorologist (Bonus!)

Episode Date: December 1, 2017

On "Good Morning America," Ginger Zee is known as ABC News' bright, always-smiling chief meteorologist, but now she is sharing that, in reality, she has long battled storms within herself. Zee, who was born Ginger Zuidgeest, discusses her new memoir, "Natural Disaster: I Cover Them. I Am One." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth? What really matters in the pursuit of a life well lived? These are the questions award-winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the Top Ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week, Jonathan sits down with world renowned thinkers and doers, people like Glenn and Doyle, Adam Grant,

Young Pueblo, Jonathan Height, and hundreds more. Start listening right now. Look for the Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad.

Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcast. Hey guys, bonus pod this week and it's this is a heavy one, but also oddly funny and moving my friend Ginger Z and I say friend I don't mean that casually she actually is my friend for a long time. She is the chief meteorologist here at ABC News. You can see her every morning on Good Morning America. She goes to cover big breaking weather news all over the country and the world as well.

She's been just an incredible part of ABC News for a long time. She began her career here at ABC News by working on the weekends, which is my domain for many years as well. And so we got to know each other quite well when she came to ABC News. And I knew a little bit of what you're about to hear from her, but by no means did I know the full extent of it. She has written a new book called Natural Disaster. I cover them. I am one. And it is breathtaking in its honesty. It's about her struggles with depression. And she's had some some truly And she's had some truly difficult times in dealing with depression. And this book is an extremely brave move on her part.

And her goal is really to normalize this. It was a goal I share. I wasn't talking about my panic, anxiety, depression, substance abuse, that it is a mission I heartily support, which is to make people realize they're not alone that these are are very common conditions and they can get really bad but you can make it through and ginger is a great case study in somebody who's aggressively sought help and is whose life is in a really great place right now well you also hear us talk about meditation but it's not the major focus of this podcast. We get to it toward the end, but again, really proud of my friend Ginger for what she's done with this new book. And so without any further verbiage from me, here she is, Ginger Z. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. You were nervous about this book.

I am still nervous about this book. I know you know the feeling before you told me it's gonna be okay, but it would be weird if I wasn't nervous. I wouldn't be hopefully, hopefully doing what I want the book to do if I wasn't nervous. What specifically are you nervous about? So it's a combination between nervous

that I can't believe people are going to read this stuff about me, that it's still kind of like, but I hope that it helps. And then the second part is, does it seem like I didn't go, you know, because there are so many people that deal with mental health issues to an extreme extent, that I think they're going to read it and say, so that's what you went through.

But I'm like, no, there's more. So that's a worry too. But I think the one that even from the reviews that I've seen so far, the people responding to those reviews on Twitter, on Instagram, I've already seen people say, I can't believe you went through this too. I did the exact same thing. Hey, I ended my engagement. And it was one of the hardest things and I went into a deep depression afterward. And there was, so I'm already seeing and hearing those stories and that's starting to

soften the concern. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about the first line or two of the book. Yeah, so it starts out 10 days before I started my job at ABC News, I checked myself into a mental health institute or hospital. And that was the changing factor in my life. So up until that point for probably 10 years, I had been to dozens of therapists, I had struggled, I had attempted suicide, I'd been in really bad places with depression. And my mom, mom's always right, still, that still stands.

Mom's a nurse. And she always said, you need to commit to this, you need to check yourself in. That was very, I didn't know anything about suicide. I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew that I didn't want to live. It was very, in the moment, it was just kind of, okay, and that's what depression was for me.

I would have a great day. The next day, all of a sudden, the bottom drop out and I didn't want to live. The next day, after that, after I survived survived a suicide attempt i'd look in the mirror and i'd say who is who's that girl that tried to commit suicide yesterday that's weird and so you know in some people's lives that plays out as a bipolar where you have a man manic moment and you have a depressive moment i was never diagnosed as bipolar but i definitely had swings of manic moments that played out around these terribly low moments. No, I've had a private dealt with depression myself since I was a kid. And to this day, clearly in my mind now clearly not as severe as what you've struggled with.

Take me inside a moment where you actually don't want to live, because I've never experienced that. Yeah, and I haven't experienced it now in five, six years. And so to live the way I've lived in the last five, or six years is such a more joyous, better place. Because when I get depressed, I still get depressed. I still have to, I don't think you ever aren't depressed. You know what I'm saying? I don't think you get cured of depression. I think you learn how to

live and deal, use tools. I think depression will always be around. Well, can you not be, can you, you always have depressive tendencies, but you may not be depressed right now. Yes, right. And so to live this way, where I've had depressed, I've had moments where I think, wow, I'm really low, I don't have the feeling that I want to die. So I do know the difference between what that was. And I would say that vacant is the first word I would use, where I just have no, I don't care about anyone or anything, especially myself. And I think that it would be better, it would be easier. I get in a very, it's almost like a lazy mode where I say, this isn't worth it anymore. This isn't, and it, my brain turns off. And I just, I had

one of the times I had Otis with me. I remember just being in a part, yeah, my dog. And so he was unfortunately around for all of this stuff, this poor thing. Is Otis still alive? No, he passed when Adrian was born, right around the time. But I remember looking at him, and I loved that, I mean, he was my everything, and I remember looking at him and thinking, I don't care. I didn't care about anything, and I wanted it to end. It was blackness, vacancy, a room that shuts down very fast, but then a room that opens

up, and I write about that in the book where I'm talking about the, it's like the shades go down and I can't see and I don't see a future and I don't see my past and I don't care about anything. So you mentioned it a few questions ago and I have a way of derailing people from the stories they're trying to tell so I apologize about that, but so 10 days before you started here at ABC, you were working with me at the time. You were about to start working on weekend, good morning, America with me and the other co-hosts at the time were Biana Gola Drega, now at CBS.

And Ron Claymore, who's still here after more than three decades. You were coming in as our meteorologist. It was your dream job. And 10 days beforehand, you checked yourself into a residential mental health institute. Why and what was it like? So in that place, I knew I had gotten to my low place again. So by that point, I had enough experience with therapy and with support around me that I knew when I got to that low place with what was going on in my life and the transition that was about to happen that usually kicks off something for me that I was moving to New York and there was a lot of pressure and I felt that was part of it.

I knew I was at getting close to I don't want to live anymore. So I actually had the warning signs and was able to say to my mom and to my cousin, I don't want to live anymore, I'm pretty sure. So we should do something about that. And so it was the first time in my life where it was... I had a dead provoked and un... Yeah, not like a kind of a laugh because it's so... It's so crazy. Frank, yeah.

It's not crazy. Well, crazy not with the word akin to mine for me, it's just Frank, it's brutally Frank. And for them, they know I was serious because they had experience and they didn't want me to get there again Whether it was the next day or it had was gonna happen after I started my job or whatever and I think it was the Gravity of knowing this job was here and that I didn't want to screw it up So this was giving me that That light in that room that purpose that I knew that I wanted to get to.

I knew life had something in store for me. I knew that it was, I could still see that little part. So that was the first time I really had that, told them and saw the warning signs. And then they said, my mom said, okay, I want to help you, but I want you to commit this time. You're going to check in or I'm not going to help you. And she got very strong with me, you know, where she's seen it so many times. And she, for 10 years, and I think about this

as a parent now, she went around just scared. Every day she worried, when, especially if someone else in my life called her, someone else that didn't usually call her, I was always dead. I was always dead in her mind, because of how I had lived. And that makes me so sad that I made my mom live through that. Like, I can't imagine Adrian doing that.

Do you have kick its butt? You can't do this. And we should say, as we record this, you've got another baby coming. And that, like, thinking about what I did to my parents, especially my mom, because she knew it all the whole time, was so unfair. And it's unfair to a lot of people,

but it's something you can't control. So I understand that. I understand where I was. But wow, that was bad. So you didn't elect to have a mental illness. No, I didn't. And she didn't elect to have a daughter with a mental illness. No, it's unfair all around.

Yes. I guess I'm just trying to alleviate some of the guilt. Of course, yeah. But it's but now being a parent, you feel guilt and... Of course. Yes. And herant guilt. That's the job.

And you give guilt as well. So she she did what was best at that time and and forcefully said this is it. So my cousin flew to where I was drove me. Where were you? I was in I was actually in Maryland of Virginia. I can't remember but doing something else and I knew it was that moment and she said because I was supposed to go that day and fly to New York and be in New York and start my life before my new job. And I just knew I couldn't do it. And so she picked me up, drove me straight to the hospital.

I checked in, put on the gown, and then wanted to turn around immediately because I was like, hold on. So where was the hospital? In New York City. So she wanted me to be here, so that eventually, because I had to start work. And I believe it was, I don't think it was a set program

necessarily, but it was like they suggested after they did their first, no, how you're doing. Like an intake interview, yeah. How long you should stay. So I don't think I even knew how long I would stay. How long did you stay? I stayed five days and then had the option for to

To see the therapist like several hours of the next two to like transition back into reality If you take that up. Yeah, and that's how I started seeing him More often and so he he suggested okay, you've done the hard work Let's not let that go to waste and let's see each other twice a week. And not just for 45 minutes, you know, we would see each other maybe for a few hours at first. Wow. Yeah. So this is a real commitment. Yeah. You had to. You had two or else, and I knew I had to. And I could tell by the third, probably the third day that it was going to do something. He said, you did the hard work. What does

that mean? What work are you doing when you're in this situation? In the hospital, it is, I feel like every single second was spent focusing on, why am I here? How did I get here? How do I make this change for the future? And I'd never spent that much time. Most of the times that I had gone to therapy, I went and it was pretty flippant and I don't know that I was even honest with them. I don't think I ever, I told him everything. And it was the first time I- It was all day long just sitting with a doctor talking?

You have hours with the doctor, but you also have group sessions, you have, and that helped too because it gave me great perspective of other people with different types of mental illness. And it, I mean, being there in the first place, the whole point that I was there was a real wake-up call for myself. It was a real moment of honesty in myself. I have a disease. I had never said that.

And they were telling me, you can say that, not just say that, but that's why people have medication, it's why people have to go to these places and go this far to get better. Any disease, you have to do something to make yourself better, right? We all have to take action. And that was a real wake up moment. And I thought, okay, I'm ready to make this better now. So it was a turning point.

And when you say you're ready to make this better and do the, what does that involve? How does to make this better and do the what is that involve? How does one make this better? I mean, just talking to a therapist about the underlying issues, I imagine medication may have played a role. Honesty was first because I really had never told a therapist everything. And so this was I had gotten this far and he didn't say you have to be honest with me. I think I was just ready. Finally, this because I had known because I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to end up back in a hospital again, but I had gotten there. I'd gotten

myself there. So I was going to take that and not let it go to waste. And I think it should be called rehab or something. It should be because there are rehab, right? There are, but I think that it should be more just like an alcohol drug, any sort of substance abuse. That to me is almost accepted, no. Right, because the stigma around going into a mental hospital. Correct. Yes.

And I had that since I was a kid. I remember there was a place in West Michigan, and that was like a threat. You know, and there's always kind of this, that's for if you've really gone off the deep end or if you've really whatever that is. But I had, I needed this well before I had actually done it. Because I'll tell you, there were several times within that time, you I had. I needed this well before I had actually done it, because I'll tell you,

there were several times within that time, you don't have your phone, you're not talking to your family, it is really hard. And so, but that also is something that works. So I don't know how much you take away. But going into it without the stigma would be very helpful. So, so it was honesty that was the first thing. Just tell, just put it all on the table. I actually said it all and I said it to myself. I'm very, and I've gotten a lot better at this, but I'm very good at forgetting. And I always blame it on. I have a terrible memory.

And I think I do a little bit, but I think that I block things out, knowingly block the mountain, say that didn't happen. And I was very good at that in my life. So there were tons of events and things from childhood on, all the way through college, through my early years working and television, that I had just blocked. And then even in the case of ending my engagement, I ran away from that so fast I didn't deal with any of the

feelings that come along with it. I was like, I'm on to my next job. I'll see you guys later. Peace. Good luck with that house. I'll see. And I just ran. And like, I ran a lot. We're going to tell that story in full later, just so people who are listening, maybe curious.

It's in my head. I will come back to that. So anyway, but you're back with the honesty. And that's what I needed to do was sit in it. I had to sit in my mess and talk about it. And I had never done that before with anybody. And I don't know if it was just him or if because it was a combination of me being ready,

but he was very clinical, super cold, not at all like every therapist I'd had before was like more like a mom or a grandmother who allowed you to tell your story and didn't really give you direction, he gave me exact help and said, okay, here's what you need to do to work on that. Here are some tools that you can do when this type of thing happens.

What are those tools? So the best one for me is the fence. And so when I was the fence, and so I don't know if that's like a technical term, but that's what he called it. And he said that a lot of my problem in my life would be absorption. So if you're upset, if I'm sitting across from you right now, or if we were at work and you had a bad something happen, I would immediately take on your feeling, anger, frustration, and I would count it as my fault, even though it likely had nothing to do with me, and I would then

react, and it would be inside of me. I would take someone else's emotion. So learning how to from a coworker to my dad or my mom, taking that emotion, separating it, realizing, and this sounds so elementary. It sounds like this is something I should have learned when I was three, but I didn't, and I didn't develop that way. And then I didn't, it just got worse and worse where I would just absorb everything from somebody else.

So he taught me how to use this fence. I'd put the fence up and I have to reflect, look at myself, and say, did I have something to do with this? Because you can be responsible for if you did have something, you can apologize for that. Most of the time it's not going to be that. The other person's feelings are going to be their feelings and you have to say, I'm sorry, you feel that way and then go forward. It's the simplest part of psychology and it should be built into all of us, but I think it's not. And for me, it would spiral into whatever they felt. I would let it accumulate from the other person, from the guy at the grocery

store, all the way to, you know, my best friend. And especially if I had something to do with it, it was over. Then I would fully take on and be bigger than whatever they were feeling. And make my emotions. And that, and it's almost selfish, because you're taking everything from everybody, putting it in yourself and then dramatizing it and making it your own world. So I think what I, it probably had something to do when my parents divorced and how I lived,

how each of them seven. And my dad is silent, strong, but also when he gets angry, you feel it and you know it. And it's almost worse. My mom is the opposite. She's extremely demonstrative. Everything upsets her from, I mean, we'd be at the bank and they always lost her money. I don't know why that ever happened, but she'd be screaming for a manager, yelling, breaking

things in public. And so we had these two extremes. And I didn't know who to live like or who to make happy because you always want to make your parents happy. And I couldn't figure that out. I couldn't suss that out in my own life. And so I would take on whatever I thought that they wanted me to do. Boy, that must be in your head as you figure out your own parenting style.

Yeah. And I think. I never think about whether... I never want my son to think about whether he's making me happy or. And I think. I never think about whether, I never want my son to think about whether he's making me happy. I notice though he asks me, or he's happy. But I don't want that to be a burden on him. I don't remember feeling, my parents are great.

I don't remember feeling like I had to make them happy. Right, but you have to ask like, why is, every kid wants it. Yes. He's luckily asking for it. So he's communicating that have to ask like, why is what every kid wants it? Yes. He's luckily asking for it. So he's communicating that he wants to know, which is great, because I definitely never asked, are you happy? I just assumed. And that was a big problem. They were unhappy. Yes. And that you it was your fault. And that it was my fault. And people say that that the the kids think that divorce is their fault. But I didn't I had for my dad kind of the silence where

I wouldn't communicate any of that. And I'd be very shut down about it. But I would do everything in my power to be perfect, to be, to do whatever I could, to be sure that everybody around me was as happy as they could be. So it comes into then it turns into a people pleasing issue to an extreme. So you talked about the tools that this doctor was giving you. The fence was one of them. Anything else and did it get to the point of medication? So with him? No, so this was actually the first time that I've gone out of a and I was in the most intense therapy and I didn't do medication. So

almost I had tried plenty of medications by that point and that was a reason he didn't want to because he thought that this was something that we could do by meeting regularly by giving me tools, because the difference I felt even in the weeks after was surreal. It was like a new mind had been given to me, and it was just getting the right tools. It's like, that's what I want for my kids, speaking of my kids. I want to make sure that they hear this type of mental exercise, basically. Those things are very important. It can't hurt, to tell them, can't hurt to have them use offense and to communicate that

that's something, even though I think that that should be inherent in a lot of people. I think those are the important things that we should all learn from a very young age. So people who listen to this podcast are really in the kind of the practicality, so are there other tools we can talk about? I think the other one that I, you know, the honesty with yourself is one thing to say that. But I do now, and maybe this is a little meditative, I do now, you're not supposed to go back in the past,

I do, I go back in my day, and I try to. Who says you shouldn't go back in your past? I think a lot of people say that, right? That's like a thing like. Be in the moment. Be in the moment, right? Yeah, I think that can be misconstrued, personally. Right, well, I've obviously misconstrued it in your past. I think a lot of people say that, right? That's like a thing like... Be in the moment. Be in the moment, right? Yeah, I think that can be misconstrued, personally.

Yeah, right. Well, I've obviously misconstrued it in the past. So be in the moment so much that the past didn't have it. You know, well, right, there's that. So I actually do it as a, as a, almost prayerful moment where I wrap up at the end of the day and I say, this went well. It's like a debrief after a great TV show. You want to, you know, you after our show, GMA,

something went wrong, you want to address it, something went great, you want to address it. So I do that with myself, a check-in. And that helps me, and did I react well? Am I using those right tools? And the one thing that my mom has said for probably most of my life, which is funny, because she's able to let stuff go.

When she has a blow-up, it doesn't matter the next moment because she let it out and she got it out. So if I do have an emotion, it's okay to have that emotion. Just go back and I go back at the end of the day and I say, why did I, you know, did I go too far, did I go far enough, did I address it, did I communicate well, and that's been really helpful. And especially with being married, I feel like I kind of go back. And then I think he appreciates if I come to him and say, you know, this really, this actually really bothered me.

And then it's only been six hours, and it hasn't been six months, and I haven't let it accumulate and accumulate, and then my feelings get out. So communicating after you take that meditative moment, I think is really important. Okay, so so many other questions to ask you. I'm just trying to like, I get to this point in the podcast all the time where I'm like, where are my going? Okay, I want to just stay with your biography and get back to sort of you current ginger later. So there was a bunch of wild stuff that you talk about in the book. And so let's just tell some of those stories and then we'll get back to happy ending ginger. She's not as fun. I mean, that's not worth a book.

It's totally worth a book because the happy ending is there. Yes, yes, but you gotta do the wild stuff. For sure, okay. So the engagement you ran away from? Yes, so I'm 23 years old and I'm working in Flint, Michigan and I had to make extra money.

As a meteorologist. As a meteorologist. And most people don't know in TV, you make nothing. I mean, Michigan, and I had to make it as a meteorologist. As a meteorologist, and most people don't know in TV you make nothing. I mean, like, less than nothing. I think it was less than minimum weight. You're head be- At the beginning.

Correct. So this is my first real full-time job, and Oda Scott's sick, my dog, and I had to take him to the vet, and it cost hundreds of dollars. I'm like, oh gosh. All right, so I started bartending again back home across the state in Grand Rapids, Michigan,

and while I was there doing a wedding, I met a guy and I had had several. So you're commuting across the state to do meteorology on TV and then to bartend? And then to bartend to make my trip? You couldn't have found a more local good bartending gig. It was a really good bar. It was home. It was like I could stay at home. It's not, you know, so I was visiting home, but also making way more than I probably would

have anywhere in TV. So at one of the weddings, I met a guy and we start dating and six months later, we're engaged. It was fast. I didn't even live in the same city as him, but I was just about to transition and got my job in Grand Rapids. So we felt that coming and I think we both thought when, and in Grand Rapids, when you get out of college and you haven't gotten married yet, you're pretty slow. Like, you're the old lady with seven cats already. So I was feeling motivated. I was like, and he was a great guy.

He was an amazing man. So I said, I think we need a long engagement, just because, probably because at one point, when I, the day we got engaged, I called, you know, you call your mom and you didn't, they were like, wow, everyone's really surprised, because it was really fast. I I called and you know when your phone's on a little too loud and I called my friend Alicia and I was like, we're engaged and she said to who? It was like that. So, it was soon. So we did the whole engagement and as I went through and

there's a great scene in wedding crashes, that's a weird thing to say, but toward the end, I think Ila Fisher's the actress or no Rachel McAdams and she's sitting there and everyone's planning the wedding around her but you can see she doesn't want to be there and has nothing to do with it and she's confused and doesn't want to confront anyone because it's all happening. That happens in weddings. Things start rolling, dresses start getting ordered, and all of a sudden your entire wedding is planned, and then you wake up one day, like I did, the day after we put our invitations into the mail, and I had a real come to Jesus moment and thought, I can't do this.

And those invitations can't go out because I did not want the confrontation of telling everybody that I had just invited to my wedding, actually I can't do this. So I run, physically run, to the post office and wait for the postmaster crying by the mailbox. He comes over and says, is there something that you need from inside there? I was like, yes. And he actually opens the big blue box

and I start picking out the silver envelopes and he starts helping me. And then he says, this has happened before. Wow. Like you're not alone. And I thought, wow. Nice guy. Really nice. And illegal. By the way, not supposed to happen. I'm not supposed to touch mail, but whatever. And either see, we picked all of them out. I brought them back to my fiance. I said, I can't do it. I think it's too soon. I maybe I don't know what it is, but I just can't get married right now. And he's like, this is cold feet. This is normal within 24 hours. Those invitations were back in the mail because I felt awful because he was right. Of course, it's a lot of people go through this. You know, I got talked back into it.

I waited another three weeks. I was so painfully thin. I looked crazy. Like, you know, how people do it before they're wedding. They try to get in great shape anyway. But I was so stressed and anxious that I don't think I'd eaten in weeks. And I just was gaunt and, you know, people at work are like, are you okay? I was not doing well. And it was just three weeks. And my grandmother and I were outside. And I had, plenty of people had told me, you don't have to get married. But a no one had really stared me in the eyes and said something, I can see that you can't get married.

Like you physically cannot get married. I feel like you're gonna die on this shrivel away. And she said, this isn't right. If it's not right, don't do it. And it was something about having her and my Oma that I respected this woman so much. And she was so conservative and, you know, all the things that you, I was so worried about letting everybody down. I wasn't listening to myself. And for the first moment, I listened to her. I was honest with myself and said, no, I really can't get married. And then I called my wedding off again.

And for the second time. And how did that go? Awful. I mean, it was so hard. And his family was so disappointed. And because they were the most pure, sweet, and they still are just a glorious family, he is in a mate. There's nothing wrong with this person. It just wasn't right for me. And I shouldn't, I was too, especially then, too volatile and too messed up to be in such a really put together place. I think I would have ruined his life. I think I would have really hurt his family much more than ending an engagement had I stayed in that place in that time in my life. Hey, I'm Arisha, and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wunderys Podcast, even the rich,

where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Ru goes out searching for love and acceptance, but the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Rue off course.

In our series Rue Paul Born Naked, we'll show you how Rue Paul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. And you ended up going on, you sort of moving as people do in local news from bigger city to bigger city. And along the way, you had some relationships, or at least one relationship that I remember you were still in when I met you that was not healthy. This is the part of the book too that I think so many women and men, not just women, but of course a lot of women

have had this, where unhealthy relationship doesn't matter how smart you are or how talented you are or what experiences you've had, I think an abusive manipulative relationship can get a hold of anybody. And this is the part of the book that I'm the most fearful of telling, but it's also the part that I'm the most excited about telling. Because I feel like there, I'm gonna have so many people say,

that's what I'm in. I hope they read it and say, that's what I'm in right now. And maybe this is the catalyst where they can go and finally end it, or find the confidence in ending it. Because I sure wish I would have earlier. I wish that I could have gotten out,

you know, the day after and figured that out. But there's something very spider web like and very physical and magnetic about these relationships. And I don't know if you've ever had one, but it's a strange place. And it's weird because I talked to my husband now. He knows himself very well. If he was ever in something like this, he said, I don't get why you stayed. I don't understand. Yeah, I think there are different personality types. I don't think I've been in one of these relationships, but they're just different personality types. And he always says, if I knew it was bad or someone was treating me poorly, I left immediately. Yeah.

And he was very black and white. And I think I always went gray. And especially in this relationship, it got gray very fast. And I made a mistake. And I cheated on this person early in our relationship. But that cheating and that problem in me then gave him a hall pass forever to treat me poorly. And that was really what made this relationship, I guess, extended because I wanted to prove

to him that I was perfect. I wanted him to be happy. I wanted to, even if I was going to leave, I wanted to make sure to leave when he would have nice things to say about me. When I had proven to him, that was what that mistake that I made was not me. Hold on. You know, I wanted to, it was a very weird, like, I needed him to believe something that he was never going to believe.

And then it just gave him that moment and that, you know, in time that he could go back to for years to treat me poorly. Treat you poorly in what way? So his type of, now I know as abuse, I think at that time I just thought it was the way that he loved, which is really strange to say too, was to build you up, build you up, you are everything, you're the biggest thing in your life, and then the moment we were in an intimate place, usually away from others, to tear you down and make you feel like you need him.

And so it was just a constant attack of who I was, who I surrounded myself with, and what was wrong with me. And so it just be, I can go story after story. There was never a time where we had just a neutral time together. It was always extreme. It was always extremely good or really, really bad to the point of toward the end of the story with him. And I'm thinking about my life, and if anybody back in my real life knew about

what was happening. And I thought, this is it. I have to leave. So I remember your dating life when you arrived here. Yes. We don't have to go into, I don't know how much. Please set me up and blind dates. Yes. Yes. So I was involved. Or we, but Bianca and I were both involved, I think. And then I, but Bianca and I were both involved, I think. And then I remember when Bianca and I had brunch for the first time with you and your now husband, I think I sent you an email right after it said, okay, so you have to marry this guy. Yeah, yeah.

And how much of a difference did meeting Ben play in your mental wellness and getting you to where you are right now. So I had another bad relationship. And Ben always says that all he had to do was get me flowers and he was like, the best thing I'd ever met in his life, but beyond that, Ben is a really special person. When I first met Ben and I had that other thing,

he was still kind of around when I first met Ben. And Ben knows all of this. So this is not like something I'm telling for the first time my husband's gonna hear it. I met Ben, I was still kind of, we weren't dating enough that I had to be exclusive to this person because this person was never with me, really. And I go on a date with Ben and I'm like,

whoa, this guy is really into me one day. And he basically told me that he was going to marry me. And then I don't know when we saw you guys probably by the spring. But in the meantime, I broke up with Ben twice because I wanted to still be treated badly. And I would go back to my therapist. I was still seeing my therapist at least once, sometimes twice a week. And I would say, what am I doing? Help me.

And I was being fully honest with him. You know, I want to end it with this guy, but I can't stop being treated poorly. I'm so addicted to it. I needed it. After coming off of the other relationship, I needed someone to hurt me. And so Ben is the opposite. He's not only not going to hurt you. He's going to build you up and make you the queen of life.

And that was so scary. So I think by the time maybe you're talking about, I knew. And I had finally, a year and a half of therapy since I had gone to the hospital, had finally gotten the tools together, believed in myself enough that I believed that I deserved love. And Ben is all love.

And he's all communication. And he's everything that was so scary. And he's all confrontation. Ben is Mr love and he's all communication and he's everything that was so scary and he's all confrontation. Ben is Mr. confrontation. He not that he loves it but he just does it because you have to because that's what life's about and that's something I always ran away from too was like if something was going wrong I'll be like, not confrontation in that he likes to fight but if there's an issue he wants to talk about it. He deals with it immediately. It's so scary. It still is because and we don't have them that often because we don't have a lot to confront.

But when we do, now I've gotten four years later to the point with him where I'm bringing it up and I'm all proud of like, actually, we have this to talk about. And I'm like, okay, you know, and he's very good. His family, the way he grew up was the opposite of how I did. And he had every encouragement to speak his mind and have every emotion he wanted to have. And he still has his, he's not perfect, but he's pretty darn close for being a partner in life. So let's talk about where you are now and how do you stay balanced and is, does depression still creep in and you know, what do you do when that

happens? My mom was so concerned when I had the baby because just the hormones alone. Yeah, postpartum is a big thing. Huge and she was so worried that the imbalance there would get me. I was, didn't fortunately, didn't have any of it. Doesn't mean that I won't this time, so it's something that I'm gonna be perked up to.

If I ever have a transition again, a big career transition, a life transition, I think that's something that I'm going to be perked up to. If I ever have a transition again, a big career transition, a life transition, I think that's something that I'm going to be ultra sensitive and aware. Ready for my warning signs. Do I have moments and times where, especially in my pregnancies, I've definitely had, you know, it's hormonal, also, it's influenced by that. I've had moments with Adrian. It's not funny, but I really thought I was

getting to the low point again. And I called my therapist and I said, because I haven't really seen him regularly because I haven't needed to. And I couldn't get out of my funk basically within that first couple of weeks of the pregnancy. And he said, sure, I can see you. And I was like, you know, therapy, well, I don't even know if I needed therapy. I just needed to not be pregnant at that point. But I haven't had a moment ever since I went to that hospital where I've wanted to end my life. And so I haven't gotten to that point.

And I haven't really had moments where I can't bring it up to Ben and just say, hey, can we talk this through? I'm feeling low because of this. So that communication of it has kept me not only honest with myself, but that check in at the end of the day telling him. And then he's very, so he's so helpful. If I have a problem at work, he's like, so go talk to him about it. So go do this. And he's that therapist.

Let me just say my opinion is that I think the book is incredibly brave and really will help a lot of people. What do you hope the outcome is? Yeah, I hope that it's seen that way. I hope that someone, just like the couple of reactions I've seen so far where they say, I saw you as someone so put together and that no one, I can't imagine that this happened to you too. That's where I'm at. Or one person said today, I'm in that really dark place. I'm in that dark shot room and I can't believe I saw your, just randomly saw a tweet that you were, you know, I just did little excerpts of the book to get people

understanding what it's about and so they can see a little bit into it. And she wrote me this whole email about how much that meant to know that this person she's been watching for five years thinking has this glossy smiley life went through the same thing as her, or something similar. And I hope that my hopes have already been achieved there. I think that it's just in that one story. And the other thing is, and I've gotten better, this is something my mom's very good at. I'm going to give her a hard time in the book, but my mom is very curious about other people. And she, the opposite, used to joke that I was on my phone all the time.

That's pretty defensive mechanism because you don't want to have an emotion or look at anybody or interact with anyone. Are you still on your, because I don't see you as much now that you're a big shot week day. Much better. Much better. You were like, you're no less in that phone. But that was partly my problem.

I mean, that was part of my problem is I didn't know how to interact with people. It was almost like a social anxiety of sorts because of- Not uncommon. Yeah, not, but my mom is the opposite. She's the person who in the grocery store line finds out that the woman in front of her just had a miscarriage. You know what I'm saying?

Because she asked so many questions and she's so into other people's stories. It's that genuine curiosity and care for other people that I've tried to work on. And I hope that this, when people see it, they'll go, no way, that person that I watch on TV, they're gonna learn my story and hopefully it inspires them to learn someone else's story.

Because I think when we do this, when we sit down and have a frank conversation, it inspires honesty with yourself, it inspires honesty with other people. And we're all in this together. We're all gonna face our personal storms. We're all gonna have to weather them, and then we're gonna have to help somebody after.

And that's the parallel, a little cheesy, but that I found in real natural disasters is that people go through those states. They have shock, they have anger, they have frustration, all those the Kubler-Ross, you know. And then at the end, most of those Harvey, everybody's helping each other. And the best story that came out of that was mattress back.

And now we know him. And we get to hear his story. Tell the story for those who don't know him. So mattress back is the guy who helped during Harvey and let people stay in his showroom where he has mattresses and furniture. And just was so giving and loving. And such a great character that now I know him, now,

whoever's watching Good Morning America knows him. And his goodwill and story of his life has been told and should be. And then that person who was sleeping on that bed that got that very beautiful place to stay in their worst hour will find some sort of beauty in that person's story. And then they'll be able to tell their story. And each of us has a story. Each of us has, we're all messes to some extent. I want people to know how much of a mess I was so that they can then go forward and tell somebody else. And to know they're not alone. Not at all.

Yeah. The huge part of it. Yeah. I think I'm definitely messier than a lot of people, but it would be even for those folks. Oh yeah, but even for those people that are a little haven't had those extremes, I think it's good for them to know that there are people out there that have that, so that we're not judging immediately. When you walk up to somebody and have this, like, well, I know her life, she's got great dresses and hair and makeup every day. Like, well, I just tell you a little something. Yeah. Tell you a story about me drunk under a bridge in Chicago. True. Yeah. Almost, almost dying. And that, I mean, I just- Was that the suicide attempt? No, that one was the- that one was the kind of-

these are- that's the stories in the book are all kind of moments in my life where it hits me, where I have to make a change. These are the climaxes, you know? That's what made each chapter kind of make sense to me, is that it- that's why it was full of other messes on the way. But that one is where I'm under and I'm- I should have- I read much of the book, but I don't remember that one.

I was in a blizzard and I was I should have I read much of the book, but I remember that one I was in a blizzard and I was a homeless woman came and offered me her hat because I was in such bad shape. And I realized I needed to make a change like not just drinking, but just being a disaster under a bridge in Chicago. I was brand new in that's town and I was making a mess of myself and I could have frozen and died. It was just bad. And so those are those moments where you take a look and you look in the mirror.

And I was just lucky. And a lot of these situations, I think some people are less lucky. They don't get the help or the support that they had, you know, that I had. And so I just want them to know, you've been drunk under a bridge and made a terrible choice. And now you got out of it,

now we got to make it better. You know. I don't know if I've ever asked you to, have you toyed at all with meditation as a way to deal with depression? I've been trying. I've been trying. I've been trying.

So I started by, I just, I know you said don't do it in the car, but I started in the car anyway. Oh, you mean, I, well. Well, I mean like, it's not perfect in the car. Are you driving at the time? No. I think I'm meditating the back seats of cars all the time.

Yeah, totally good. I think I've got a thousand now. No, it's definitely not time. Yeah, totally good. I think I'm counting those a no. No, it's definitely not enough. Okay, see, I gotta learn. So that's the place that I've achieved some sort of, I think, moment of meditation. I wouldn't even call it into meditation. But I use that.

When you say, sir, let me just interrupt, because this is very interesting and important. When you, what do you have in your mind when you say moment of meditation? So I've tried this light, I don't know if I read it or if I listen to the podcast or somebody was speaking about it, but I try the light in where I see a green and blue because I have to clear it first. So I see green and blue coming into my nostrils and then I exhale red.

And so this allows me to get into a place of not thinking about other things, instead I can get. And that's only after I've done that for a certain amount of time. Have I had those glimpses of, I think, real meditation, like real thought, not thoughtlessness, but yeah, thoughtlessness, right, where you're gone and you've lost just that breed,

but mine's so fast, and I haven't been able to get, you sit for like, how long now? I sit for a while, but let me just, let me just get to this issue of real meditation because I think I have good news for you. Okay. So you should just completely just explode that. The whole like clearing your mind, thoughtlessness,

just. Explode it. Yes, it is a massive obstacle to what actually is real meditation. Real meditation is seeing clearly how absolutely chaotic our minds are. So sitting there trying to focus on one thing, maybe visualizing light coming into your nostril, I would say a simpler one is just feeling your breath coming in and going out usually at the spot where it's most prominent, like your nose or your chest or your belly. And then what's going to happen immediately is you're going to be besieged, but all

sorts of crazy to-do lists and resentments and all that stuff, that is totally fine. The whole game is to notice that's happening. I've gotten distracted by this monkey mind and now I'm going to start again. So that is actually what I'm doing in soul cycle. Yes, okay, so that's great. Right. So you can make anything into my wife, but Bianca, who you know, is gotten super into soul cycle

of late. There are anything where you're fully paying attention to what's happening right now, and then you get distracted a million times, and you notice you've become distracted and start over. The reason why that's valuable, the reason why that is real meditation in my view is because when you see how chaotic and often disorganized and certainly self-referential and negative your mind is, then you're less likely to be owned by it.

Then when you're not meditating later in the day and you get this thought of like, oh yeah, I should say something really mean Ben right now, or I should lose my temper with my kid. You can recognize, oh, this is just happening right now. That is the point. And that's the prayerful moment I call it at the end of the day for me, is that, is that, you know, look back moment too.

But even better to have it in the moment, right? When you urge to say something, you will later regret is a rising or To say something that I should say instead of not saying it was probably more mine. Yes Because mine is to not say it right so to wait until the end of the day If not the right way to do it. Well, no, no, I think waiting to the end of the day I think that has worked for you and it's not you so much health here. It's not either or here It's just about adding so I think if you set for you and it's not. It's not so much health here. It's not either or here. It's just about adding. So I think if you set up this, it is true

that you can reach states of where you're so concentrated on whatever it is you're meditating on that your thoughts can kind of abate for a while. But setting that up as the goal impedes progress toward the goal. Because you're like beating yourself up. The more valuable, but less glamorous thing to do in meditation is just to be like

marinating in all of the nonsense. So that the nonsense doesn't own you. And by the way, this just makes meditation much easier. It defines it down. And that's the, okay, so that is the one last tool that I keep saying. And I feel like was one of those things I wish someone would have said earlier to me, is I do this every time something's upsetting me,

frustrating me, any of those emotions where I don't know what's gonna happen next or I don't know how I'm gonna react later on in the day, I always do the check-in, is this going to matter tomorrow? Is this going to matter a week from now and will it matter any year? And if those are are all nose or if they're no from the top, it's, I stop caring. And that one has, because I think what I used to do was it would go to, well, nothing matters. And then it would go too far, you know, because there are things that

are going to upset you or be instrumental in your life a year from now. And those things should be attended to and those things you should say, if it's something at work, it's never going to make it to tomorrow. And that's something that I've regularly done. And even when I started working with you, I put in there, Fonzie, probably saved my life several times. Fonzie, you deserve a save manager. Very, very funny. Very funny.

And very in tune with people. As much as he knows people. He knows how to read them I think he knew that I needed it wasn't just his humor. It was like a caring, you know Warmth and you know he's very good at that and I put in there I think he saved me several times because I would have such a bad show in my mind You know that it was like the end of my career and why am I why am I? Am I here why am I you know, those questions were starting to float back even with all the help I had gotten.

And he would say or do something that would shake me out of that moment. It would put me in the, does this matter tomorrow mode? And I kind of wanted to come back tomorrow. I wanted to come back and see what Fonzie had to say and what, you know, you guys were all so welcoming and awesome. And we had such a great time. It was a very healthy atmosphere for me to be in career wise, especially at that beginning. I think had I done a lot of other things maybe it wouldn't have been, but he was really helpful. And I told him he said, I'm going to see you at the book party next week and like yes,

fans, you like the star. So let me just say one last thing and then I have one last question. Just in terms of ways in which you can meditate. So if you're in the back of a car and you're driving, you're being driven to work or whatever a shoot or whatever, just one thing you can do is just try to feel your breath coming in and going out like pick one spot where it's most prominent So use my lights, right? You can use light. Yeah, okay, so let's go. Let's stay with the lights So you tell me what you're doing with the greener blue in like an aqua Good and then exhale red and are you feeling the breath? Are you actually feeling it?

Yeah, and are okay to wear your nose in my nose and into my I take it into my So you deep breathing while you're doing it. Yes, okay So I this is not a type of meditation. I know very well you deep breathing while you're doing this? Yes. Okay, so this is not a type of meditation I know very well, but let's say you're doing this, you're doing the deep breathing where you're breathing in the red and out the aqua. In the aqua. In the aqua, out the red.

In the red. Okay, so, and then I think what you should do, I think what you should just add to this thing you're already doing, which by the way, you don't have to do for very long, is just when you become distracted, make a little note of what distracted me. Was it my to-do list? Was it anger? Was it a dark thought? And then welcome it in,

and go back to the breath. And in that, in that move of like being like cool with whatever is coming up in your head, over time you just develop a much less aggressive attitude to yourself. you just develop a much less aggressive attitude to yourself and All the stuff that's gonna just come up in in your mind has less of less purchase less it governs you less And that is really helpful. Can I ask something then? So I've noticed One not negative. By the way, I'm not a meditation teacher So this is like unlicensed surgery That's okay Ben gives me the therapy. So yeah But if I so the one thing that's come of this of me, so what I also do at the end of

that, of the breathing, it's not that long of a ride, but I'm just using it for what it is. Right. I get to that point, I usually associate like the to-do list, and then I think I knew that I should not know that that's the chaos and say no. I want to, I want to think about clear or see it clearly, I guess. Once I do that, I then make, and maybe this is where I'm going wrong, I then make like a little bit of a statement of the day, like I'd like to do this better today.

At the end of the meditation. Yes. What's wrong with that? I think I'm putting a little too much pressure on myself because recently, and maybe this is pregnancy talking, especially during this pregnancy, I've said to myself, I want, you know, especially at work, I have a hard time being social sometimes, this just not doesn't come naturally to me. And so I've said, I really want to open up and learn other people's stories and do this thing. And I don't know that I'm succeeding in it. So like every day I'm having

the same goal and I don't know that I'm achieving it. So is that should I just release that part of the meditation process? No, I think you should just hold it more lightly and a more forgiving way. Yeah. So it's like, okay, my aspiration, and this is a tough one for me, my aspiration is to be more open to and with other people. And you just know you're gonna fail, a million times. I have failed a lot.

And I was saying it to my aunt over Thanksgiving, and she's like, because part of it is- What are you expecting in a magic incantation that that stuff doesn't exist. All you can do is have like a gently held aspiration and be forgiving when you fail. And that's and I guess that's that I'm doing it right. But I'm, you know, and that's what she said and it actually made me feel a lot better because a big part of it too is me trying to be social in my like, I don't want to hurt Adrian with my anti socialness if that makes sense. So I don't want to go Adrienne with my anti-socialness if that makes sense. So I don't want to go to his school and be the shut down mom. There's other moms engaging and I have to,

it's not that I don't care because I do. I do care once I learn their story, but I have to be more like my mom where I want to be more open social, all of those things that he, I don't want to be the one that didn't know. We didn't need a family picture on the wall. I didn't know that last week. But you know, I want to, I want to help him. And so those things are my goals. And I just, I haven't achieved them yet. So you may never achieve them, but you'll get marginally better. There's a reason why this whole thing is called 10%.

You know, it's just about like the major victory you've already achieved is identifying the goal. And then just saying, all right, I'm going to just try to get better at it. The Buddhists do this whole thing that I actually do, which is, you know, totally impossible goals. Like, may all beings everywhere be free from suffering, completely impossible. But I almost like that better. Yeah, well, I like it too. Well, there's more forgiveness in that because you're never going to get there, but at the end of the day, can I do a little bit of a retrospect, never going to get there, but at the end of the day, can I do a little bit of a retrospect, some retrospection about, oh yeah, was I a jerk or not?

Well, that's where I'm going back. So during my prayerful moment at the end of the day, I go back to those, how did I achieve this today? Did I learn something about Brad at work? You know, did I? Whatever it is. And that opens me at least to knowing, no, you didn't. And then then tomorrow morning I'm going to do it again. All I'm, I think this is all great. All I'm trying to do in the spirit of unlicensed therapy and given the fact that I don't know anything about anything. Anything is, I have a podcast that which qualifies me for zero is to say, just to take

some of the self-directed aggression out of it. So when you get distracted in meditation, somebody gave me this great little thing to say, which is welcome to the party. So okay, to do lists has come in. All right, welcome to the party. Back to the breath. And then that just creates over time, like later in the day when you're having a conversation with somebody but instead planning dinner. All right, cool. This is here. It's happened. I didn't invite us. I'm my fault. It's welcome to the party. Back to the conversation. And this is the way change happens in my experience. I'm going to be a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a I follow you on social media, everything, everything ginger. So if, and Ben, give it all. If you are a person who has made mistakes and wants to forgive yourself or start to or

has dealt with depression, I think this, there's the wide range of people. I want to get that out there because I think it gets stuck on your mind. It's also just a good read. And I hope so. Anybody who wants it just a good read. And you get to learn my dirt, you know, which is always fun. Absolutely. But then you can find me at ginger underscore Z on Twitter.

Well, wait, you give us a name of the book. Oh, sorry, it's natural disaster. I cover them. I am one. OK, and available wherever you get your book. Yeah, bookstores, Amazon, all these places. And then I would say that social media, social media, so Facebook, I'm on, I have a fan page there,

and I interact with everybody. That's a big part of my life still. Twitter with an underscore and Instagram with an underscore at Ginger underscore Z. And your husband give us some. Sure. Yeah. Take learned van. Take learned van is his new show.

It's on CMT across the nation at 9 a.m. and he also. Once a week or every day. Every day. Okay. It's an hour show. Okay. They have 140 episodes based in Nashville. Faith Hills executive producer Kelly Pickler has awesome co-host. They are getting along so well.

The only problems. It's a Nashville, but we are loving it. And I have to say this whole two city thing is kind of working. Wow. It's actually really nice. We focus on what we talk about like focus. We focus on work. I go to bed when the baby goes to bed.

I'm asleep by 8.30, which I never was able to do. Because I, not- You was taking care of the baby when you wake up to go to work at three in the morning. That's the problem. Our poor nanny has had to take on my hours, which is really hard. Oh, okay.

She's doing a great job. I am, that's someone that I said in my things last night. I am so grateful for, and I would like to do this for her because I could treat her more, you know, this way or this way, because I am, she's coming at 5 a.m., 4.45 a.m., and then staying till 7 p.m., a lot of days. No, I would just say, so you've identified that as a goal,

just don't kick yourself in the head every time you mess up. Just get better at apologizing more quickly. Yes. That's all we got. Yeah. All at apologizing more quickly. Yes. That's all that's all we got. Yeah. All right, you're awesome. You know, I've always loved you. So it's great.

I'm very proud of you for writing this book. It's incredibly brave. And I'm happy to see you in such a happy place. Thank you. I am too. And that's the other thing. The clouds don't last forever. That's something else that you have to remember in those moments. They can't because that's not how the atmosphere works.

Said like a geeky weather nerd. All right, thank you Ginger. Appreciate it. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe. Rate us also. If you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in. Hit me up on Twitter at Dan B Harris. Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohen, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible.

We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.