Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 114: Dr. Bianca Harris

Episode Date: December 20, 2017

Dan interviews his wife, Bianca Harris, who is a big part of the storyline in his new book, "Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics: A 10% Happier How-to Book." She resisted starting a meditation practice for years, but has recently made a change. The book is on sale Dec. 26 and available for pre-order now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. For free. For ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast.

I'm Dan Harris. I took a big risk on this one, a big risk. I invited my wife to be a guest on my podcast, and I seem to have forgotten that my wife likes to give it to me. So you're gonna hear me take a little bit of a beating from my wife, but you also going to hear an incredibly smart and interesting person who has had a lot of stuff go on in her life and who lives with somebody is really into meditation and yet for years couldn't bring herself to do it but has made a bit of a change recently and this is something I write about a lot in this new book that's coming out soon called Meditation for Figuity Skeptics and in fact this is the third in a series of four special podcasts

we're doing leading up to the release of the book. It comes out the day after Christmas and time for the whole new year, new you thing and the book is basically about the fact that I've made this really in hindsight kind of dumb, cavalier assumption after I wrote my first book, 10% happier. I kind of thought, well, I make a pretty good case for meditation in this book. So anybody who reads it, they'll start meditating. Not true. It turns out the process of habit formation and human behavior change is really complex and really messy. And even if you make a good case to do something, it doesn't mean people are going to actually do it.

So I decided to write a follow-up book in which I really do a thorough taxonomy, a thorough classification system of all the big obstacles to meditation. Like, I don't have time for this this or it's going to make me lose my edge at work or I can't clear my mind and in the book we tackle them systematically and give you tips to get over the hump and we also tell this great story. So I hook up with this Gonzo but brilliant meditation teacher from Canada, Jeff Warren who was on the pod last week and we get this big dumb orange bus and we drive across the country meeting people who want to meditate but aren't and helping them get over the hump and Jeff is amazing at this i call him meditation mageiver for that very

reason anyway bianca is a big part of the storyline because she is somebody we meet on day one of the road trip when we're in new york city somebody we meet on day one of the road trip when we're in New York City before we take off and head across the country. And she tells us all about why she doesn't meditate. And Jeff gives her some brilliant advice that you'll hear about during the course of this podcast to help her actually do the thing.

And I guess this is a spoiler both for the book and for the pod, but let me just say that it's a happy ending. Although interestingly so, and surprisingly so in some ways. I guess this is a spoiler both for the book and for the pod, but let me just say that it's a happy ending, although interestingly so and surprisingly so in some ways. So here we go with some hesitation. I Bring you my wife Bianca doctor Bianca Harris All right, so can I ask you much questions about meditation? Yes, okay, so why did you you resist it for a long time? Why? I may still be resisting it, so it doesn't mean I don't have some practice to talk about, but I don't think the story is over there.

It wasn't A-stop and then start. And all of a sudden everything is clear. As you know, there are many behaviors that are in habits that would be potentially good for me that I haven't necessarily indulged in. And that was one of them that I certainly hadn't thought about before you got into it. Even though I think in my early 20s I was thinking about Eastern philosophy and Buddhism in particular and doing a little bit of yoga and thinking that it would be right for me. But I think life circumstances and issues that I have, idiosyncrasies, tension deficit issues,

and also just being totally overwhelmed by my medical training and really the intersection of what it took for me to excel there and prioritize that. And then of course have a relationship and manage family and I just did not prioritize myself. Yeah. So I should just fill in some background.

We met. You just finished medical school at NYU and you were an intern at Columbia and you were at the beginning of residency program. But the intern year is like the hell year where you're just working nonstop. They've changed this so that the hours are less crazy, but you were before the change. So we're-

I was between changes. So the change that had gone into effect right before I started residency was that you couldn't work more than 24 hours straight. And you did? Right. So I did because you always, we did. But it wasn't 72 hours, 48 or 72 hours straight, which was sort of the olden days. And certainly people that train in that model criticized the structure that I experienced, but I really do believe that it's important to push yourself to sort of be able to think and react under difficult circumstances, being fatigued and I trained at a place where

I'm grateful for how challenging it was. The effect that went into play actually, I believe towards the end of my residency in early fellowship, was that interns were not allowed to work more than 16 hours shifts, plus they had to nap. And there, I certainly understand why some of the changes were made. I don't know that the changes have been effective effective and there are a whole lot of reasons to rethink the strategy because I think this just doctors are being trained with a different set of skills now, but I do believe they're less tired. But the reason I brought into that up is is you referenced that part of your resistance to meditation was that you're busy.

And I was just trying to fill out that you were legitimately busy. You're like, you're incredibly busy. Legitimately busy. And to your point, although I'll extrapolate a little bit, internship is traditionally the hardest, both because, I mean, it's a shocking new environment to be in. It's totally challenging in terms of not only medical knowledge, but your self-esteem and your ability to interact with colleagues and patients and know it all and not be tired and all of that. But it's not like it gets better from there.

And I think you know better than anyone with each year that past. I was like, oh, it's going to get better, it's going to get better. And in fact, you know, now three boards later, so I trained an internal medicine, then I did a fellowship in pulmonary and critical care medicine for each of those specialty and sub-specialties. You have to take a test to become certified as board certified. So, you know, for all the excuses I thought were legitimate in being kind of harried, and tired, and not taking care of myself, and possibly not even just the way I wanted to be in our relationship, and the beginning is always tough, I really did generally think I was going to get better.

And it didn't, for different reasons, but internship is sort of the tip of the iceberg. We've been together 10 years So this medical training has been the bulk of our relationship and then recent years have become an attending So I just feel I'm some Just throwing this out there, but because it to bolster your point that you were busy. However There is irony because you were the one who gave me my first book on Buddhism that ended up launching me into meditation. And then I started doing it every day and I'm reasonably busy myself and you didn't. How was I annoying about it? Like, did I lecture you and say you should do it? Because I now go around telling everybody

don't lecture anybody about meditation. My early days though, I think I kind of might have been annoying with you. Yes, but before we make it about you, two other things. I know it's very difficult, but this is how it's going to go. It means how it is. Yeah, fair enough. Holden back. Okay, well you don't have to hold back. I know, I'm just a warm enough, but I did forget what I was going to say. Oh, two other things before the impact that you may have had on why not doing it. and say, oh, two other things before the impact that you may have had on why not doing it. One, I come with my baggage and I was not somebody who in medical school had intense discipline

in terms of exercise. I certainly contrary to your perception, which was that I didn't exercise. I, I, I, Well, now we're talking about physical exercise. I'm loving things together right now. Self- self-care and discipline yes in the realm of self-care and If you have one kind of practice present, you know when you when you work out more you eat better when you eat better You would do other things better. So that's kind of contagious and when one falls apart

You know, it's really easy to throw in the towel. And I had thrown in the towel, I think, several years prior, while I was in med school, actually, which is not to say that med school is the excuse because I know plenty of people who upped the ante because of the stress and ran marathons and did actually completely insane things that I both envy and also kind of can't really stand to watch because it is not normal to get up at three in the morning to train for a marathon when you have an 18-hour day ahead of you or you have to take care of other people. But for some people that's what they need to do. And that's another perhaps another extreme of unhealthy behavior. For some people and for others it just works. unhealthy behavior for some people and for others it just works. So that's one. Two, when you're in the profession of caring about other people, compassion burnout really can apply

to yourself first. And so I surely did not grow up, you know, knowing how to take care of myself or observing. Yeah, but your dad was a runner. He turned to running late in life. I never, he became a marathon runner in his 40s. At that point though, my parents were divorced. I was in college, running really was never my thing anyway. But I have had given some obsessive tendencies of my own. When I'm in it, I'm all in.

So I've gone through some pretty intense phases in my life where I've been, you know, that gym girl. But you never met that person because she also wasn't very happy. So my relationship towards healthy habits is complicated, one, because it's a new phenomenon to me. Again, I didn't grow up observing it and modeling myself after it, and two, because of my own idiosyncrasies and being a perfectionist, and if I'm going to do it, I'm going to really do it.

If there's no chance I can do it as well as I would like or others expected of me, I'm just not even going to go there. There's another level to this. You said there were two things you want to discuss, but it's actually a third thing, which you talk about in the new book, which is that you had a resistance to taking care of yourself that was based in this kind of assumption that it was, that self-care is self-indulgent, that your mentality was, take care of other people, don't take care of yourself. It's not it.

But it is, but it's kind of primitive for me because I sort of learned that just through some pretty bad situations when I was younger, you know, with family and my own health. And I think I made a conscious decision when I was pretty young to take care of other people. I didn't have a choice, but also I really kind of thrived on it because it made me feel very connected to each of my parents separately. I had a brain tumor when

I was eight and I'm very lucky to be alive. But that coinciding with my parents separating but that coinciding with my parents separating and it becoming a pretty gnarly several years. I think in ways I still can't really understand I created an equation for my health and longevity that did not involve taking care of myself. And so what you're saying is true, but I don't really intellectualize it now. It is just how my brain is wired to think of other people first, but that doesn't mean that I'm this altruistic saint. It just means that I just sometimes don't know where to sort of funnel my energy in a way that actually would be good for me and others.

Right. I want to I think we've done a pretty good job of fleshing out how multifactorial your resistance was. Is there anything more to say on this issue? Well, only that it's not that I ever had anything, I never held anything against the idea of meditation. And for sure, there was resistance to doing it because you wanted me to do it. Not sort of overtly, but you were already on me about exercise, even though I went through some phases even around you where I was more active than not. Be clear, I was not on you, but exercise for any other reason that I thought it would make you less

stressed and happier. We're just still annoying. I know, no, no, I was super annoying. I'm not, I'm just trying to explain my motivation. You're incredibly stressed at work. You were incredibly stressed. And I was like, well, we science, your scientists, science has pretty strong conclusions about the things that will reduce stress and include exercise and meditation.

Yes, but what I was hearing was you being stressed about me in your life as a stressed person. And so even though I hear you and it makes sense when you're going through that, and we were still, you know, in the first year of our relationship, and we moved in together pretty quickly. And so there was a lot of learning that happened really quickly. And again, I come with real baggage from, you know, my upbringing that is completely, you know, divergent from what you experienced.

So we're very, very different in that regard. But I certainly, and that's not a bad thing. I think it's complemented, we've complemented each other. And I think we have a thing. I think it's complemented, we've complemented each other. And I think we have a lot of strength from it. But I didn't know that the times when it felt like we were oil and water, that it wasn't because I sucked. And so you telling me anything that could have been out

of real love and compassion given that you have your own issues with being demonstrative and it's just not your thing. I didn't know how to interpret that. No, I get it. I get it. It's annoying when people wag their finger at you. You're the person, unfortunately, you're the guinea pig on whom I learned not to lecture people above meditation because I saw how poorly it went with you. Which is why I stopped pretty quickly.

So there were many. But I knew, I mean, you stopped saying it, but I mean, the judgey eyes are there. I don't, really, I don't think we discussed it. I've at least my view, because we're talking about a span of seven, eight years here where I started, I've been meditating for like, say nine years, I met a lecture dude a little bit in the first

month or two or three or four or five, but then I pretty quickly realized that it was a losing proposition. So my view of what I was doing was just keeping my mouse shut because I knew there was no way you were ever going to do it if I lecture you about it, so I just figured if I keep my cat my mouse shut, maybe you'd come to it on your own. And maybe that's part of why I did. But just to be clear, it wasn't like it was a stagnant seven years. Every year for me professionally was different. There were new responsibilities, new stressors, you know, just like everything, you know, life becomes more challenging. Then of course we had to deal with our own issues with infertility and with having a child and all sorts of other stuff that we may or may not

get into. So one of my weaknesses is to always reset the clock when something has come up, not necessarily in a positive way. I reset the clock to say, okay, new circumstances, I got to figure out what the playing field is, and I'm going to do my thing of, you know, trying to get to the easiest things first, get them out of the way so I can focus on the harder stuff. And so, even though I always had my list

of wanting to be healthier and wanting to exercise and even wanting to meditate, despite you, I wasn't going to do it until everything was just right. Of course, everything is never just right. So, you know, it's not just because you did or didn't nudge me, it's just for me. I really, really wasn't considering it seriously. Right. So, that's funny because the first thing you said was I was too busy. But my view and what I learned in the writing of this book is that when people say they're too busy to meditate,

actually that's code for a million other things, which we just dove into with you. It's so multi-factor, you're just not willing to make it. Well, I didn't want to. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to in the abstract, just like I wanted to be healthier. And any of her, I was just trying to think of superficial as anything you want that you

can't have at the snap of a finger, I wanted it, but I didn't really want to do it. I, I, between trying to keep up what I perceive as a facade of being type A at work and, you know, doing a good job, but what it took for me to do that, I don't think anybody really knew in terms of my study habits, in terms of just the true empathy and compassion that I have and how much I give, I would give it in the ICU and wherever else I was working, it was really, really draining. And then to still manage a lot of the emotional issues in my family, and then of course that trickles down to relationships and everything else. It was just a time suck. And that's the time is there to be.

Yeah, there's lots of stuff, but I do recognize that there's always going to be lots of stuff, but I just, I'm just trying to paint a picture of being truly, truly zapped of a life force when I would come back home. Okay, so what changed your mind? Well, I wanted to get you off my back. That's not true. Well, maybe it to get you off my back. That's not true. Well, maybe it's true. The eyes, the eyes.

No, I think honestly I didn't set out say, okay, now I'm going to do meditation because even until last year when I kind of started something, a little more regularly, we had enjoyed, enjoyed. We had meditated together on and off over the years. If we were on vacation together, I'd be happy to do it. In some ways, I just really liked outsourcing discipline to you. And there were a few times that I actually asked you to pull me into it. And you said, no. Now, it could have failed, but I actually did ask you. You asked me to record you an individual meditation. I did do it.

That's one version. And I used that for a little bit. But I didn't always want to hear your voice. I mean, it was great, but I just didn't. It wasn't the lasting effect. Of course, it would mean that my voice is not going to be relaxing for you. Right. But I still... Why did I say no when you asked me? what did you ask me to drag you into it? What did I say no there were a couple of times when I I distinctly said I give you permission to nag me about it Because I'm ready. Yeah, I said no. Yes. I stand by that decision But I was really struggling with self-motivation and now we're in a different This was only the last few years, which is an entirely different set of life circumstances.

Just to update, I had finished my training, I was faculty at an academic hospital in New York on a very difficult path, which is called a tenure track where you're writing grants and becoming a sort of real, real specialized expert in your field. And for all intents of purposes, it was going as well as it could go. However, we were fortunate enough to finally have success with IVF. And between that and a series of challenges within 12 months of having a baby, which in and of itself is obviously... Grenade. It's a grenade, even if it's a grenade of flour. Sometimes it's also a grenade of just complete sloppy, painful stuff, obviously.

And we have a uniquely bad kid, you know. Well, he is your happier son. Juju Chang, who you know, my colleague on that line says that she always tells young women be careful who you sleep with because you'll end up erasing him. He's not uniquely bad. We love him. He's he's fantastic. He had some minor health issues and again, bumpy roads for everybody. Um, but I very quickly upon returning to work had to submit something called the Career Development Award, which is an incredibly difficult body of work to do. And I had to do it under intense pressure, time pressure, and both, you know, my reputation, but also my energy level postpartum and also without the evenings and weekends

that I had really used to work all the time when I decided to get into a more academic track and medicine which happened towards the end of my fellowship, which I did by the way, in part, because you were working all the time. I was like, well, what that's a good book. I'm gonna work too. And I'm just, I don't know if it's, if it truly is about my reading pace, and I am a perfectionist, and I know that is a criticism of me, but I just had a really hard time getting it done, and was taking a real look at that,

and what I really actually wanted for myself, because I was never even sure that I wanted to be on the tenure track but as I began to sort of have the courage to speak to my bosses about it, there's a family drama that occurred and you got sick. And then I got sick. So actually I had made the moves to better my stress level and my life before I got sick. So actually I had made the moves to better my stress level and my life before I got sick. So between right up until Alexander turned one between six months and one year,

I was desperately trying to figure out how not to throw everything I had done away. And harness what I loved about my job without totally killing myself. And I had just gone through IVF, complications of a miscarriage, a baby, family drama, taken care of the child with the caregiver. A lot of stuff, I'm not saying that I was awesome to be around, but there's pretty good reason for not having it sorted out.

But what you were, but to really echo what we talked about a while ago, you had been seeing me for 10 years, say it's gonna get better, it's gonna get better, and it didn't, and so I think it did culminate in that very prickly time for UVs of the, how you thought I was approaching my professional life because it really had compounded over the years.

And it's not that I lacked passion for being a doctor or being actually the type of doctor I am and working with. In fact, I was super fulfilled in so many ways. I was just on a track that was just not natural for me. And the more people told me it was, the more I felt like I had to do it, the more it was self-sabotage, in terms of the great writing and all the things that just, you know, it's difficult enough for women in medicine, this is another level. And so in the fall of, I guess, 2015, I had actually taken the steps to see if I could step back and

Just figure out another role for me at my institution and I fortunately had a lot of support in the conversation it started And then out of the blue I got sick which breast cancer right breast cancer which Then you ended up having to have some, you're fine now. I just want to assure everybody like super fine, super fine. But it was miserable. Yeah. I mean, it was, and it was also the best thing that ever happened to me. Well, I had no choice, but to just stop.

Yeah. And there were a lot of people that needed taking care of, yeah, more than stop. Yeah. And there were a lot of people that needed taken care of. Yeah. More than usual. Yeah. And being a doctor for me was the only thing that was stabilizing for me my entire life, the only thing.

So, and I was there, like I was actually in this very coveted position doing pretty unique things and actually doing them well meeting all of my obligations despite all of this going on. And that's why I had the support to begin the conversation. So I thought to begin the conversations about, you know, just how could we make an arrangement now that's a little more conducive to you taking time with your family, but also still contributing in the way that was honestly very, made me very happy, makes me very happy to see patients and to be engaged in the hospital. I mean, I love being in the ICU. I love being in the hospital, taking care of people. And it was worth it to me to do that really, even though there was a price to pay for our family every now and then just because there was a price to pay for our family every

now and then just because it was a lot of time. But we had a situation where it could have worked out. But yes, so then I February of 2016, I felt a lump and immediately it was like, no, way. This isn't happening. And I did actually rationalize it away that it probably was benign because of a variety of features that were accurate. It was cyclical and long story short when I ended up getting the diagnosis.

It was a benign mass. It was something called a fibroidonoma, but around it were the atypical cells and that led obviously to the the workup for very, very, very early stage, early stage of breast cancer, which is complicated to talk about because it's Dr. Carsonoma inside to and and I don't happen to be an oncologist, but fortunately your dad, you know, has expertise in this area as a radiation oncologist and we ended up learning a lot together about it. But what was tricky was obviously having to have multiple surgeries and ultimately a double mastectomy to clear it.

So all's fine, but it was very bumpy and there were some unknowns there for a while. But you were actually amazing about it. So I'm grateful for you for that. I mean, thank you for saying that. I don't, you just do what you have to do. Anyway, so I'm glad we've got this whole story out there because actually leads up to beginning of 2017.

Well, it was during that period though that I said I got I got to take care of myself. Yeah. Before I started having a lot of because I had so many I six or seven surgeries over a six month period. It was just it was a little bit atypical. At some point I just had a difficult time being comfortable, but I did early on say, okay, as usual, you know, life strikes and this is it, I'm going to make the changes. It's going to be all fine, all better. And I think it was during that period that I asked you to nag me and you still want to do it.

I think it was the right call because it would have backfired. It might have. But I ended up coming up with another way to sort of like having, I nagged you by proxy because we right around the end of 2016 was when we dreamed up the project for the road trip, which is the book that's coming out. And the idea was I wrote 10% happier and I thought, okay, well, everybody will meditate who reads it because I make a really good case. And of course, you who basically edited the book weren't meditating. So, you know, people

reading as a beach read or whatever, it's a funny story of an idiot who has a panic attack. But people aren't doing what I thought they would do. And so I wanted to write a book that would actually convince people to meditate. And that thought was, let's take a road trip, we'll go across the country and we'll meet a bunch of wannabe meditators and figure out what's staffing them and then we'll systematically come up with tips to help people get over the hump. And we sort of made a list of the major obstacles, you know, I don't have enough time or I suck at this because I can't clear my mind or I'm allergic to self-care, which is I think your big major issue.

And I recruited Jeff Warren, who's this incredible meditation teacher, and we, one of the things, even though you didn't come on the road trip, we had Jeff do like an intervention with you on day one to see like whether he could get you over the hump. So can you, that's what I mean by nagging by proxy. Basically, I brought Jeff and see if he could do it. What did he say? Was that useful, et cetera, et cetera? It was super useful and it's probably the reason why I actually have changed other habits now and I exercise regularly and that's another topic perhaps except that he instantly changed the tone of the conversation about it from being an obligation to being something that I could incorporate into what I was already doing incorporate into what I was already doing and just to sort of fudge it and not do it like you do it, you know, I just personally could not see myself meditating as much as you did and even if you only were saying do one minute,

I mean, if you live in the house with an Olympic swimmer, it's very hard to want to take, you know, if you don't know how to swim to just take a class and be okay with the doggy paddle, it's a difficult bar. Not that we actually have any competitive tendencies that I'm aware of. It's more for myself if I can't do it to the extent that maybe, maybe I'm just talking about it now, maybe I thought it would be disappointing to you if I didn't get to where you were. I just wasn't going to put myself in that playing field at all. Definitely wouldn't have been just for the record. Probably not, but that's obviously hang up for me. No, I get it. I get it. It's a completely legit hang up.

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What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. So Jeff did a really, I often refer to this is all in the book, this whole scene plays out in the book, but I haven't talked, refer to Jeff as the meditation McGyver because he just loves like

finding out what your problem is and fixing it. And he really quickly identified with you. So we had, it was the first day of the road trip. We hadn't yet left go across the country, we were here in New York City. And we set up an interview with me, you and Jeff, in my office. And Jeff asked you a bunch of questions and one of the things you're saying is, yeah, it's like, you explain that you have a little bit of an allergy to self-care,

and you also say like, Dan's practice looks like he's on this like baton deathmarch, you know, like, you know, trying to do ex-minimum amount of minutes every day, and you know, he's sitting there with his stern look on his face, and like, I don't wanna do that. It just seems like, you know, I'm busy enough as it is and he kind of did this brilliant reframing can you tell us what that was well I was

really hopped up on cold medicine that days I can't remember exactly what he said but he he took a circumstance that I had described of putting the baby down and just wanting to veg and watch TV. And I was working at the time. So even though I was part time, it was still quite relevant. Because in between surgeries, I was going to work and still pretty spent. So you were describing how you,

yeah, you were describing how, at the end of the day, you would put the kid to sleep, generally speaking, I was at work, doing nightline or already asleep myself, because I had a good morning, America the next morning. So that would fall to you to put the kid to bed. He was not easy to get to sleep.

He was not a great sleeper, still isn't a great sleeper, frankly. And you would have these long sessions of trying him to get him to go to sleep after having worked all day. And you'd come out after that and just be like, you know what, I just need some comfort food and some comfort TV and the meditation which you knew probably could have been useful. It just like wasn't

what you were in the mood to do. Not only that, but I wasn't even totally allowing myself to enjoy the comfort food in TV because I was doing all the other things I had to do like order groceries and and answer emails and stuff that I thought, well, at least if I'm watching TV, then I'm still getting the other stuff done. And he kind of, he basically sort of challenged me to enjoy it, really to get into it and enjoy it. And while... Getting to enjoy what?

Lying on the floor and or on the couch and watching something that's mindless and giving it to yourself and feeling your body in the process. And it wasn't at that point that he had created a meditation for me later that really he really was able to sort of back that up with a longer practice associated with it, but he gave me permission. Can I just explain what you're just to explain? So he, we had this conversation and Jeff said to basically his suggestion was like, sprawl out on the floor, have the TV on at the background, out at a high volume, and just

enjoy the luxury and of laziness and being sprawled out on the floor. And like, bring your attention, you know, half your attention can be on the TV, but most of your attention should be really just on unlike the physical feelings of relaxation. And then when you get distracted, start again and again and again. And what he went off and did after the retreat was over, he created you a bespoke guided audio meditation, which you were able to then listen to and use. Right. And I will also add that because we were taking this course on contemplative care,

which may or may not have spoken to your podcast listeners or. Oh, well, okay. So we were doing some fairly regular meditations in class and I was feeling better about. Can I just explain what that is? Sorry. We were taking a course on contemplative care, which means we were basically training to be hospice workers with two of our previous guests on this podcast, Trotto and Coshan. Coshan, Paley Ellison and Robert Trotto Campbell, their husband and husband who run the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which is this amazing place here in New York City. And Bianca and I signed up to learn how to be hospice workers from them. And they have been on this podcast.

If you want to go listen to them, you should because they're totally amazing and now very close friends with me and Bianca. And anyway, so we had been doing some meditation as part of that course. We had, so it's just not to take away from anything that Jeff said or did, but I was, I had the mindset and the actual physical space to appreciate that it could actually feel good and not sort of be exactly what you do in a way that I had in before because I was working part-time at that by that, and I was again in the room with a lot of other people who were training in this way to be, I guess, hospice caregivers, which was not really why I did the course, but it did sort of relate to my professional life.

And so I was already drinking a little more of the cool aid than I had been the year before. And feeling the effect of just slowing down and I really had enjoyed sort of body scans and meditations where I could, I really needed to be beholden to somebody else. I just was not good at doing it by myself. It was if it was a guided meditation or if I was in a room with other people. I mean, I was great. I could do it. We should, let me just quickly tell people you use the term body scan. I was trying to define terms when people drop them. It's a type of meditation where you kind of systematically focus on different parts of your body and it can be very relaxing.

Right. Right. And so that's important because that combined with the taking back lazy component of sort of fitting it into some time that that's that you deserve. That's yours. That was the name of the meditation he did for taking back Lazy. Right. I think that made me much more open to wanting to do it. And so not only was I starting to do it after I put the baby to bed. Wait, actually, can I stop you for a second? Just in the interest of kind of filling out the narrative a little bit. So we did this cross-country road trip and we met all these people and helped them, tried to help them get over the hump to meditate and then came home and started writing the book and we made a, for some of the people we met on the trip,

including you, we made, Jeff made these bespoke meditations and so the thing was we were going to check back with people, you you know five months after the road trip and see if they were actually meditating. And I was very nervous to check in with you because of the lesson I learned so powerfully early on after I started meditating when I was really annoying and was lecturing you. And I, so I didn't wanna check back with you

to see if you were actually meditating. So I let it go until like May. We did the road trip in January and then it was like May or June and that I finally knew I had to check in and see if you were actually doing it, but I hadn't asked you anything I knew Jeff had sent you a meditation I never asked you about it because I was very nervous I was actually thinking that one of my co-authors on the book Carly Adler

I was I was actually thinking about having Carly reach out to you because I just thought if I asked you It was just gonna go pear-shaped. So we had interviewed you on day one of the road trip. I did my homework on the good student. I started that night. But we, Jeff and I went off for 12 days going across the country and we told you, we're gonna Skype in with you every day to make sure you're doing it.

We ended up not doing that because the road trip was so hectic and crazy. We never had the time to do that. So I not only didn't check in with you on the road trip, I didn't check in with you in the four or five subsequent months after my return because all of which, I just didn't want in with you on the road trip. I didn't check in with you in the four or five subsequent months after my return because all of which I just didn't want to push my luck. And I wanted the little, I wanted the, you know,

I wanted this practice or to incubate on its own without my, you know, spoiling it by being annoying. So anyway, I finally worked up the nerve to ask you about it. So I think I cornered you at our dining room table some morning after the baby had gone to school. And Josh, my producer is going to play a little clip of how that went down. So you say, no, I don't care if you haven't been doing it.

I only want the truth. Well, I only want to give you the truth, but I have been doing it, so I would like some credit. All right, so you actually had been doing it. What had you done? Can I just say that I cannot believe that I signed up for a life of being recorded, video tape, video taped anymore. All in good fun. So go ahead, what did you been doing? Well, what happened was sleep was really just pretty awful with Alexander, our son who was in his crib turn toddler bed,

so not very big and very custom to having me in it, which is not very comfortable. And I was really starting to feel enraged as the literally hour to two before he would fall asleep would go on in very close quarters, him flipping around and long days, this and the other. And I started to just use Jeff's guidance to meditate, you know, when he wasn't when Alexander wasn't being a terrible bed fellow and was just trying to go to sleep and I was still in there with him and you know, we all have our

issues with with kids and yes I was in his bed but you know he's a healthy happy intelligent kid and and that happened to be one of our struggles. I just started to breathe deeply and let myself be distracted from my breath when I would hear him move or breathe differently. And I felt much closer to him and I also felt calmer. So you'd be kind of curled up in this totally uncomfortable toddler bed with him. Instead of just getting lost in your own rage, you followed Jeff's advice to just kind of pay attention to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out.

And then if he started squirming or speaking in his sleep or there was traffic outside, you would allow yourself to follow that. And then when you got distracted, you just start again. More or less, and again, to say rage feels a little strong, but at that point, it was like, I don't have another word for it, but it can be, it's still was last night, a very strong feeling of resentment. Yeah, I know I get it. Because it's a time suck, it's less uncomfortable now because I'm a year out from my surgery and also because he has a larger bed. But, um,

that's right. When you were curled up in that little bed, you were not far post-op. So it's a really painful. And if he's kicking or whatever, he can hit your... Oh, I got, yeah, definitely had some drama. Yeah. But, but I think the act of incorporating a habit in two time that's already going to be lost anyway in a sense, even though there are wonderful things to take in from putting your child to sleep. The sort of anacinus I feel after 45 minutes an hour goes by and I can't get out there to get my life back or even clean up the kitchen or do something else can become overwhelming. And that became felt less overwhelming. To the point that I really enjoyed it and I felt changes in my sort of day to day perception of myself and events. Lots had been changing in my professional life at that point by the summertime.

I resigned. There was a lot going on in my head and still is that I think that practice really helped temper. And while I have a different day to day existence now where I'm not working at the moment and I take Alexander to school and then I have a regular exercise routine. I actually have let it fall by the wayside a little bit. The meditation. Meditation. And over the last weeks since Alexander's been sick and bedtime has been a nightmare again, I feel exactly how I felt, you know, nine months ago before I started doing

it. And I realized that I need to get back on the horn because it did help. I think you were wrote a whole chapter in the book, you know, because you basically edited this book too. People may not know this, but nothing I write goes out to the world without going through Bianca. And so one of the chapters in the book, as you know, is about consistency or keeping the practice going. And one of the things I said, it's really useful, that I learned in the process of talking to people who have fallen on and off the wagon is that when you Actually falling off the wagon can be super useful because you see oh, yeah This is what my meditation practice is doing for me. It's stopping me from

spiraling off into like useless anger and So now I'm more incentivized to get back on the wagon. So your story actually really illustrates that well I think so I mean what I'm still resistant to is creating space for meditation just for the sake of meditation. And that's why if somebody were to ask me now if I have a practice, I don't know if I'm being more honest or dishonest by saying yes because I'm not making time for it necessarily. I'm co-opting time that's there that I need to use differently. And in a way that it's helpful for me. So I don't know when I'm going to extend it outside of that, but it's working right now,

and I'm happy about that. And it works for me right now. I was ready to do it, and that's just the only way to sort of approach it. I think you need to give yourself a break. You're co-opting time that you have no choice over like you're stuck in the bed trying to put him to sleep and you're stuck there. That time is passing and you're doing this great thing of like turning it into a meditation practice. So, the whole idea, like this whole pressure you're putting yourself off to like take it

into some more formal realm, I would say my advice as a non-meditation teacher who probably shouldn't be giving any advice is drop that. You're doing a ton of meditation. It takes a long time to get that environment to sleep. And so that's a lot of time where you're curled up in a bed with them. Now he's got an actual bed so it's a little bit more comfortable. But that's a pretty robust meditation practice is that's my comment. My question is can you just say more about like what how it changed how you are in the

world, how you are to yourself, like what did it do for you? I happen to be going through a week or two of not really having done it and so just feeling off because of that and I think for other reasons so I might have been better able to answer that a few weeks ago or last time we talked about it but I think what is consistent which I've learned over the years either just by proxy through you, by asmosis, by having actually done it, you know, for small stretches of time before, is that there is time. You don't have to do in terms of the translating a thought or emotion into words or action. And I see things happening before I act on them. So you'll see anger or frustration or impatience arise before you say the thing that?

Yeah, I do. The more often I meditate, the better I am at it. I'm seeing I had a confrontation with a totally obnoxious man in a coffee shop yesterday morning. I know I was in the right and I certainly was within my right to say what I said, which was not even inappropriate. That, to me, is an important example of I actually didn't see it happening before it came out of my mouth. So again, I don't regret having done it. I am proud of myself because certainly the me of old might

have been too scared. But the fact that I didn't even see it coming signals to me that I was off. I didn't know what I was feeling before it happened. And I'm not saying it's going to, you're going to be able to intercept it every time. But that space was missing. I mean, that space is the space between stimulus and response is like that's the, that is the fruit. That's the money. That's why we meditate.

I mean, there are other reasons too, but it's like that's the biggie in my view. And so I actually think it's super useful for you to see the space evaporate and recognize the need to meditate to keep it there. I think, again, I had to learn a lot in writing this book about how people form habits. And it turns out willpower is complete nonsense. You can't form a habit through sheer grit because willpower evaporates. It just goes away. It's a very finite inner resource. And what will allow you to form a habit is when you get something out of it, when there are benefits,

and when the benefits pull you forward. And so now you are seeing in the most visceral possible way, the benefits. The other thing I learned is that in order to form a habit, you need to fail a lot. You need to experiment and fall off the wagon and then get back on and fall. That's just that is how we form habits. So you're like a good, you're a great test case case study. What's the term? Anyway, you're the scientist. Okay, so can I make it about me for just a second? Sure. Okay. You referenced the fact that my meditation practice can be annoying for you.

Not just because it's like it makes you feel guilty or whatever you, but just because I do a lot, I do like two hours of meditation a day, I carve it up into different chunks, but it can be inconvenient for you. So I want to talk about that, but I want to play a piece of audio from day two of the meditation tour where we actually went back to my old high school, Newton South High School, and Newton Massachusetts, and held a Jeff and I held a town hall meeting with lots of, it was in the evening, so it wasn't with students, it was with just people who live in the community and with people who wanted to talk about meditation and one woman got up and

gave me the business. Here it is. So I have another archetype of messed up meditators. Cool. Parents. All parents? Oh, your own parents. No, me as a parent.

So when I read your book, when it first came out, I loved it, but there was a part of me that couldn't relate to it. And it wasn't because you were interviewing like the Dalai Lama and at Cartole. It was because at that point, you weren't a parent. And I was like, oh, that's so nice. He can go away on a 10-day retreat. Because he's a never-kid home. And then you told the story.

I saw you talk with Joseph Goldstein. You told the story about the baby and the little night and the poop, and I was like, OK, now I forgive him. And now we're like on the same page. But the biggest obstacle for me is I have two young kids. And they have this radar. I crawl out of bed so quietly in the morning, and now we're like on the same page. But the biggest obstacle for me is I have two young kids. And they have this radar. And I crawl out of bed so quietly in the morning

and I just like shuffle one foot over to my cushion and they sense it. And they're there. And I think a lot about your wife. And I've never met her. But I've heard you talk about how long you meditate each day. And I'm like, wow, she puts up with that. Because my husband, I love him.

But if he was like as much as I want him to be enlightened, I want him to unload the dishwasher. And if he was like, I'm going to meditate for an hour, I'd be like, no, you're really not. If he got too enlightened, he might not be able to unload the dishwasher. That's right. Dislashers, loading, unloading. So I would love to hear, if you want to speak a little bit about how your practice has changed since you became a father or any advice you have for parents because that's the biggest thing for me.

That's great. So what's your name? Carla. So one thing immediately that I think would be like an easy fix is like, have you thought about giving your kids up for adoption? Yes. Not as easy as you think. Yeah. gets up for adoption. Yes. Not as easy as you think. Okay, so just hold forth. This is your chance to take some revenge.

How annoying is it? I think the car left first of all. I truly am. I think the first thing to say though is that you have to know who you're married to and you would never empty the dishwasher. Anyway. So, which is not to say you're not a wonderful husband and father, but I know exactly who you are. Are you embarrassed?

A little bit, but go ahead. The second thing is, I didn't let you, you just did it. You know? That was that was my Principal error is I just basically declared I want to do two hours a day because I thought you didn't declare it You declared it after the fact I caught on to you doing more and Then you told me you were doing it. First of all just to be clear You're out. I handled this so poorly. I mean talk about I talk about this in the book, too Yeah, this was such a dumb boneheaded move on my part I handled this so poorly. I mean, talk about this in the book too. We have a baby.

Yeah. This was such a dumb boneheaded move on my part. I have no defense for it. Basically, I decided that I wanted to go to two hours a day because I thought it would be like a good plot line for one of my upcoming books. And I didn't tell you, and I didn't like talk it out with you, and then you caught on to it, and it was a big mess. Because we were already in my mind having trouble with 45 minutes a day or half an hour to it and it was a big mess. Because we were already in my mind having trouble

with 45 minutes a day or half an hour day what it was. Purely, in part, because of getting used to a new life at home with the baby in the routine, and again, even though I know you don't empty the dishwasher, and I may not have expected you to put him down, certainly issues of spending time together and the quality of that time. And for a little while, you to put him down, certainly issues of spending time together

and the quality of that time. And for a little while, you were missing a sensitivity chip. I don't think maliciously, but you were choosing the exact wrong moments to go take the bedroom and sit for 30 or 45 minutes, which was the only 30 or 45 minutes I had, let's say, to hang out before he was going to cry again. Or whatever it was, we were just getting past that to hang out before he was going to cry again or whatever it was. We were just getting past that and figured out and you were adhering to this that if we

just talk about it and schedule it and we're both in the know, then it's cool. Even if some days it's not, I mean, we have that understanding. And then it just got a little longer. So you started to do it at better times, right? So we could watch TV or whatever have dinner together, but it just got a little longer, longer. And I was kind of proud of you for doing it. But, you know, on the days of which there were many

when you were doing that, but then you also to do your hour at the gym because I know that if you don't do, you really do get unhappy if you don't exercise regularly. But never once was it suggested that I might go to the gym to take care of myself, even if I would have said no. So I was pissed because that was going on. And all the other things we talked about that were going on in life in the early stages of having a new family and life stressors.

And when you started doing more and more and then said, but I got to do it because you know, see how, I don't wanna put words in your mouth and there were some days when you said it very seriously and there were other days where you said it more ingest. But you know, just like you tell me, you know, words in your mouth and there were some days when you said it very seriously and there are other days where you said it more ingest. But, you know, just like you tell me, you know, who you married or I feel, you know.

I would always say, for since the beginning of our relationship or ever since we got married, every time we had a fight, I would say, well, listen, baby, you married poorly. And then I feel sorry for you and I have to tell you how much I love you even though you were just a huge jerk So it's kind of similar We skipped a heavy because so I fully agree I screwed it up I'd like to I mean I'm in the book. I'm admitting it now. There's no I'm not defending myself But it did it did it has gotten better correct? Absolutely

Well for a while you started sacrificing your sleep, which I that was stupid, but it didn't bother me personally. And then you figured out how to just do it piecemeal and other than the occasional sort of competition for the bedroom, you know, if I'm, need to take a shower and you're like, you want it to sit in that room and say, have another room. There have been times you've been a little diva ask about your venue of choice, which is really annoying. But other than those times, you're pretty flexible. Are people going to walk away from this thinking I'm an ogre?

I mean, listen, you called me in here. You know who you married. I don't know. I'm honest. If nothing else. You are honest. Just a tie a bow around this whole thing. You are in a pretty damn good place right now where you are. We talked about self-care and well, yes, you may have missed a few weeks of meditation. You are in a pretty, you've come to a, I've watched you come to a place where you are really taking care of yourself.

And it seems like it's making a big difference. I think so. I mean, we haven't. I appreciate that. I don't want to put myself down or take away from that as one can tend to do, but I happen to have time right now and I am doing the right things because I can. Hopefully, when I do work again in whatever capacity that is, these are now actual habits that won't be for. In fact, I'm positive that at least my exercise obsession for now will stick. She's become a civil cyclist,

which I do with her sometimes. You introduce me to it. Yeah, it's fun. It really is. I mean, it's. Couple is activity. It's not just fun, it's not just exercise. It actually, in the same way that I think meditation creates space for me being in that

room when it's dark and not only am I not worried about what other people think of me, but I can't even really think about myself or see myself in the mirror or care is enough to see, to have more space and to sort of be open to so many thoughts and feelings and then like work them out at the same time. It's like a two-fer. Oh, I love watching this process of you. And then also great music and dance and all that stuff. But I am happier.

It doesn't mean that I'm not still also a little bit lost after everything that's happened just two days ago. I happen to go to a Soul Cycle Studio that doesn't have a bathroom in a shower. But I went to a different one. And I just went to the bathroom afterwards, and women were changing. It was the first time I saw breasts actually

since my surgery and that was totally unexpected. I just didn't even know how to feel because I feel healthy and I haven't even thought about it in a while. I'm not really sure why I'm bringing that up now, except that being open to that experience and having space to process it as tight as that sounds, is not something I could have done before.

You know, the way I was living my life, you know, I'll be it with the best of intentions, both professionally and personally. Yeah, well, I think you've done this very wise thing of saying, okay, I've come through this period where I was killing myself at my incredibly stressful job. I had a baby, I got breast cancer, maybe I'll take a little time to sort things out. And that's what you're doing, which is perfect and well deserved.

So I appreciate it. And just to say, like, your year hasn't been easy, your years haven't been easy because obviously you're my partner, but also you have your own family issues and life continues for everyone. So I actually, one of my goals now, I, first of all, I love hearing you tell Alexander that mommy and daddy are going to exercise so that we could be here for you, be healthy for you. That just almost brings me to tears because that that's true I mean I really want that But also I do want to be there for you because even though it's not my fault that I've always had

drama, you know You've had some some things to grapple with also and so you know, I need to be there for you for that Yeah, well you definitely have been and continue to be. I know this is not easy. You hate being recorded and all that stuff. We did a great job. Thank you. There was my voice the entire time saying, you used that word already. You sounded really stupid, you know.

So thank you, but I'm still not even close to being comfortable. That's fine. Actually, if you didn't have that voice, then you're a sociopath. Well, what's your voice saying when you're... I'm constantly criticizing myself. Yeah, you just get used to it. I've been doing, I've been on camera since I was 22,

so like I'm just much more comfortable with this running self-reproach. But like, so what would an example be of the voice now during this period? Obviously, it's low stakes. You're sitting here with me. Oh, that could be high stakes, I guess. You're sitting with your wife. But like, so what would an example be of the voice now during this period? Obviously, it's low stakes. You're sitting here with me. Oh, that could be high stakes, I guess. You're sitting with your wife. But just in terms of this is your tool here, right?

You interview people, you have a microphone. But what could you possibly be criticizing yourself about? During this particular podcast? Or people are going to hate me as a consequence of you being honest about our relationship or did I miss a question Am I not letting her finish her point if I've sometimes I need to interrupt guests to amplify a point they've made or explain something is that does that come off as rude that all those Yeah, that kind of stuff that comes in So not just a strict like like, professional voice thing. I don't have a strict professional voice.

My voice is not strict. But you really did do a great job. So thank you. Appreciate it. I appreciate that. Peace. Okay, so that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. Please take a minute to leave us a rating and a review. and if you want to suggest topics or guests for the show, just hit

me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. Special thanks to Lauren Efron, Josh Cohnhan, and the rest of the team here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. And remember, we're now on Tune-In. You can hear our new episodes there five days early on Fridays through the end of this year. Thank you for listening. I'll talk to you next week. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music.

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