Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 134: Thupten Jinpa, The Importance of Compassion - LIVE!

Episode Date: May 9, 2018

Dan Harris leads a conversation with Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's longtime English-language translator and a monk for over 25 years, about the uses for compassion meditation in today's culture in front of a live audience at the Asia Society in New York City. Their conversation was recorded on Feb. 15, 2018, one day after 17 people were killed when a gunman opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Great episode this week. It's a live one. We recorded this live. We rarely do that. It's all about the issue of compassion. Sounds like a really sappy idea, something out of an after school special, but it's actually a life skill par excellence. It is, the science suggests that compassion

can make you happier, healthier, and more successful. So don't dismiss it. I often did, to my detriment. And it was taped the day after the shooting. And it was taped the day after the shooting. This episode was taped the day after the shooting at the school in Parkland, Florida, so some added poignancy there. We'll get to that in just a minute. The guest is Thubton Jinnpa. I'll tell you about him and tell you more about the episode coming up. But let's start with your voice mails. Here's number one.

Hi Dan, my name is Charlotte. And I happily just celebrated my 76th birthday. I've been meditating in large part because of your book and what you say for the last few years. I found it very, very helpful. But here's my question. I know there's research about meditation for kids and benefits for children. What about for older adults?

Is there any specific research or information about that and the benefits as people get older? How can it help people who might be very set in their way? I would love an answer. Thanks. Bye-bye. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. that's a great question. I wish I had encyclopedic knowledge

of all of the research on older folks and meditation. I do know that has been shown to be helpful with age-related cognitive decline. And there's some thinking, which at this point is still speculative, as far as I know, that there may be, it may be useful in staving off dementia, even Alzheimer's. I wish I knew more about that angle because it's really interesting to contemplate, but as far as I know, at this point, there is nothing

dispositive, nothing set in stone. But the early indications are that it's good for the aging brain and it's good for any brain while all of our brains are aging. So I think it's never too late to start. And I think what we can say with some real confidence is that what the science is showing us is that the brain is plastic. In other words, that the brain can change. The received dogma for decades in the neuroscience community was that the brain stopped changing

at some age, I think, in the mid-20s. But actually, what we know is that the brain is trainable all all all long and all the way up through the ages. So if you start in your 60s 70s 80s, whatever I believe and I think the science suggests that it can have a salutary effect. And this idea you know this idea of being set in your ways, I think the, I talk about this all the time, but it just bears repeating that the reason I'm so excited about meditation, the reason why I'm out here doing what I do is aside that it aside from the fact that it raises a few extra dollars from my kids college fund is that from my kids college fund is that this assumption we have that we are the way we are and that we can never really change, the science contradicts that notion that all of the things we want the most, patients come, gratitude, generosity, compassion, self-awareness, these are skills.

And unlike physical exercise where you are subject to the laws of physics, when it comes to the brain in the mind, obviously when it comes to the brain in the mind, there are some, you know, the brain does decay over time, but really the laws of physics don't apply in the same way. And so if, as I often say, if you can get 10% happier, what's the ceiling? So a long way of saying, sorry, short on specifics, but a long way of saying, I truly do believe that meditation is good for the aging brain and mind and that it is not too late to change. Second voicemail. Hi, Dan. This is Nancy from Juno in Nevada. I don't like to sit up when I meditate. I love

the fetal position and it works really well for me. I'm wondering, I get the feeling that there's something wrong with that, that one must sit up and put feet on the floor and the hands in the lap, and I see no purpose. That makes me very nervous. I hope you can answer this. Thanks. Bye-bye. I hope I can too.

Let me issue the caveat that I should have issued at the beginning, which is that I'm not a meditation teacher. I'm not a neuroscientist either. So, and nor am I a mental health expert. So it's possible that I will make mistakes in these answers. And they are just one guy's opinion. And I haven't heard the phone calls in advance, so I'm doing my best in the moment. But that is a really great question. And I feel like I do have an answer.

First of all, nobody says you have to be sitting up. In fact, dating back to the Buddha himself, there were four classical postures for meditation. One is the one that we see all the time in the traditional art depicting meditation that is sitting up either in a chair or with your legs crossed, which I can't do, hands in the lap, etc., etc. The other is standing, stock still. People can stand and meditate. I do this a lot when I'm really, really tired and I don't want to fall asleep. Another thing I do when I'm really, really tired and don't want to fall asleep is walking

meditation, formal walking meditation, which isn't taking a stroll. It is not as my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein has said recess. It's a sort of a kind of a strange practice where you sort of walk back and forth in a small space very, very slowly and you pay careful attention to the physical sensations of the movement and then when you get distracted, you start again. So there are three postures, sitting, standing, walking, and then the fourth is lying down. Generally, as I've seen it depicted lying meditation is not in the fetal position. It is more sort of on your back. But I see no problem with lying on your side. And frankly, as I'm going to sleep every night, I lie on my side in the fetal position

and meditate. Often, I've talked about this in the podcast before, often I do this, well, I'll do one of two kinds of meditation. One is this kind of this thing I made up that, although I later read that it actually there's some legitimacy to this practice, which is just running through in my head everything I'm grateful for sounds ridiculously sappy, but as I find incredibly helpful, because we are really good at taking things we're granted. And often I fall asleep in the middle of that, it just kind of puts you into a place that's

much more relaxed. The other thing I do is a practice called loving kind of meditation, even sappier than gratitude. And I can't believe I'm the type of person who does this, but again, their science that suggests it's really good for you. Loving kind of meditation, which we've talked about on the podcast a million times, but it bears repeating, is this practice where you systematically envision people

like a benefactor, yourself, somebody who's a really good friend, a neutral person, somebody you're having difficulty with, and then all beings, and you repeat these phrases silently in your head, like, may you be happy, may you be healthy, et cetera, et cetera. You're kind of systematically sending good vibes to people. This practice, again, called loving kindness, we need to come up with a better phrase for this. A friend of mine systematically sending good vibes to people.

This practice, again called loving kindness, we need to come up with a better phrase. For the friend of mine, Jeff Warren has called it friendliness practice. It's just a way to train the mind to have a more congenial attitude toward your fellow living beings. And again, science suggests that it can make you healthier and that it can maybe even change behavior. So I do this in the fetal position and I find that it's a great way to fall asleep. It's a great way to continue your practice up until the last waking moments of every day. So I give you permission

to practice meditation in the fetal position. There may be meditation teachers who know way more than me because again, I'm not a teacher who would disagree with me, but I suspect not. I mean, the mind is the mind no matter what position you're in. And if you're training it in the right direction, again toward things like compassion or focus or self-awareness, slash mindfulness, If you're training in the right direction, I'm not a big believer that the position is hugely important. There are schools, of course, the Zen School comes to mind where there really is a big emphasis on the posture, but there are disagreements in the meditation world. and so I'm taking a stand in a different

position, which is the fetal position, on pro fetal position. All right. I didn't even know I felt that way until I gave that rant, but I do feel that way. I did talk there about loving kindness, meditation, and compassion, and that brings us right to our guest this week. He's actually a rare repeat guest. His name is Dr. Thupten Jindpa. He is, I guess, his publicly best known as the primary English translator for his holiness, the Dalai Lama. So when you speak, when you see the Dalai Lama giving speeches, the guy who's with him is the Dunjinpa who's Tibetan himself grew

up in India as parents were Tibetan refugees. He has quite an amazing story which if you want to hear his backstory I recommend you go back and listen to his first appearance on the show. This is a very different appearance though. I was invited by the Asia Society which is a great organization here in Manhattan on the show. This is a very different appearance though. I was invited by the Asia Society,

which is a great organization here in Manhattan on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, Asia Society.org, if you want to go check it out, they have all sorts of great events. My friend Tom Nagorsky over there invited me to do an event after my last book came out and I asked Thubton if he would come down from Canada, he lives in Canada, to do it with me. And we did the whole event about the issue of compassion. I've famously been somewhat skeptical about compassion both because I feel like I've sometimes worried that it might make you soft.

Also, I don't like over-it sentimentality. So we go into all of that. And as I mentioned earlier, it was taped a day after the shooting in Parkland. So it had some added poignancy because of that. So my thanks to the Asia Society and my thanks to Thibton Jinnpa. And here we go.

So maybe see, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Good to see all of you. Thanks for coming out tonight. Let me admit from the outset, this is a massive bait and switch because the sign says the miracle of mindfulness meditation, but I'm actually going to talk about a different kind of meditation. We probably will get to mindfulness, but we have with us one of the world's premier

experts in compassion and who's been teaching it in a secular format in conjunction with Stanford University. So I have a lot of questions for you about this. And, you know, just by way of background, mindfulness is what gets talked about all the time these days, Mindfulness, meditation, and I think that's a great thing. But the focus on mindfulness is to overlook that traditionally, mindfulness meditation was taught in conjunction with something called compassion meditation, sometimes referred to with one of the most syrupy terms that you can imagine as loving kindness meditation,

which I sometimes describe as Valentine's Day with a knife to your throat. It essentially involves envisioning people and animals systematically and sending them good vibes. The expert will describe it in a more technical term. But this is, I as a vowed anti-centimentalist, I really, I kind of reflexively rejected compassion or loving kindness meditation when I first started to get into meditation because it sounded so saccharine. But there's a significant amount of science that suggests that it's really

good for you. And some science that suggests, and we'll get into this because it's a little controversial, but some science that seems to suggest that it might change behavior, although that's controversial. Moreover, once I started to do it, I found that in my own personal experience that it does make a difference. So I think that while the focus on mindfulness has been incredibly healthy in our society, it's just such a

positive development, I think this piece has been overlooked and I think I sense an opening here. Anyway, all that being said, let me let you do some talking. We sit here the day after yet another school shooting. This went in Florida. Do you think compassion, meditation, compassion, training, and you're in the business of this? You have, again, as I referenced before this, this secularized protocol for teaching compassion that you came up with alongside Stanford University,

taught all over the world as I understand it. Do you think teaching compassion meditation could help prevent events like this, or is it just like the weather, that once in a while somebody who's just mentally ill gets a hold of lethal weapon and this kind of thing is going to happen. Thank you. First, I would like to express my joy for being able to have another conversation

with you, the podcast that I did in your studio. I really enjoyed it and I felt the conversation was very meaningful and I would like to thank Asia Society for putting this event. See you on nice years. I didn't even say thank you anyway. So yes, the tragedy of Florida school shooting is right now on the top of everybody's mind, as a parent, it's just too painful to even read about it. So it's really difficult.

I mean, for example, things like teaching compassion, teaching meditation or mindfulness, these are long-term strategies. So it's very difficult to make the immediate connection and say, here's a solution, do this, and nothing like that would happen. That would be naive. But one thing that perhaps taken compassion more seriously

can do is to allow the people within important sectors like school system to pay a bit more attention to the individuals' differences and pay more attention to those who are struggling. So clearly the person who did the shooting had a difficult, of course it's not to excuse what the horrible thing that he did, but the warning signs were there. So if the compassion is larger part of the society's value and something that is made explicit, then one thing about making our value explicit is that it sets a bar and people who are part of that community

Know that they're expected to behave in a particular way. So those are ways in which something like taking compassion seriously we can help but It would be naive to say teaching compassion and teaching meditation would have prevented it. And because part of that has to do with the reality of the complicated American relationship with guns. You know, human beings are very complex creatures. They will always be people with difficulties. And we are all, each one of us, carry the seat full frustration for anger, for hatred, for jealousy.

You know, I've been a monk for over 25 years in my life. To this day, I know my own limitations. I know I can get angry. I know I can get jealous. I know I can get frustrated. I know I can get resentful. know I can get jealous, I know I can get frustrated, I know I can get resentful. So which suggests that these tendencies are very deeply rooted. But the difference is those one would hold,

those who have paid a bit more attention to their way, their mind works, are not going to act them out, are not going to allow the mind to go crazy, because the mind has a tendency to spin by itself. And with the mindfulness, you ideally one can catch it early, so that you don't go too far into this crazy energy of the mind itself. So those kind of things, that's why I really believe that teaching like social emotional learning, not just meditation, social emotional learning, teaching children to be more aware of their own emotions, recognizing that they are frustrated, recognizing that they are disregulated,

being able to teach them, even a simple technique of taking a breath, step and breathing. That makes a huge difference. Those kind of things will make a breath, step, and breathing. That makes a huge difference. Those kind of things will make a difference, because these kind of things will allow children to have an ability to exercise that restraint. So I think it's a much more complex question. And when something like that happens, there's nothing you can do other than to feel sad

and express your nichea in the pain of the victims. And also, you know, I'm not an American, so it's difficult for me to make comments on American culture. But on the other hand, you know, I live, I'm a Canadian, I live next to a neighbor, I can't help but make comparisons. I mean, the culture is very much the same. We share the same language. How come things like this happen here and not there?

So that has to do with some reality of a distinct American culture where, you know, someone like this 19-year-old man can get an assault weapon and buy it legally. So those things are very complex questions, and my hope is that, especially if you're writing a book, you write really well, and you write for the person on the street. And you're able to speak their language and get really pulled from their heart and challenge them.

I think compassion is a discourse that needs to be had now because until recently, a large part of the discourse on compassion has been relegated to the religion. And we know that religion's ability to influence public discourse is less and less strong. I want to, now everybody can see why I wanted to talk to Professor Jim, because you speak so well. Let me get you to think about, I know you're from Canada sometimes referred to as America's hat.

But looking as I'm sure you have to. I remember one, sorry, to interrupt. Once I was at a friend's place in America and she's an academic. And she on her fridge there was a map. It was one of those maps which had the landmarks and three-dimensional kind of slightly protruding. And it was an American map

But the upper part was all in the eyes and that was Canada I always there was a great onion headline from back in the day a long time ago and the headline was Perky quote-unquote Canada has own government combat laws It's perky, quote unquote, Canada has own government, comma, laws. Anyway, that is to distilled the distorted view among Americans of Canada's, in my view, undisputed greatness, not to say it's one is greater than the other, but Canada too is a great country. Less that I get myself in trouble. Um, you look at America's political scene. I'm sure pretty much everything you look at

is refracted through the lens of compassion, given your training and given your work. What role would either compassion training as you teach it, or as you said before, just the simple notion of taking compassion seriously? What role could either of these play given the howling sea of toxicity that is our current political scene?

But the paradox of compassion is that it is one value that is claimed by people on both sides of political spectrum. So at least in principle, there is a promise in the idea of compassion as providing a basis on which people from different political backgrounds and ideology can come together. Of course, one of the things in America, and generally in the West, and particularly in America, is the perceived conflict between societal values on the one hand and the sanctity of the individual freedom. And this is a very kind of Anglo-American kind of struggle. And here, therefore, if we look at the cultural values that are discussed often in the media,

especially in the public discourse. And the public discourse tends to be about secular ideas. The values are almost exclusively defined from an individual perspective. You know, a representative of the individual rights, a representative of the private property, you know, a choice. If you look at each of the values that we, in liberal, democratic society value, they're actually defined from individuals

perspective. There's hardly any that is defined from a communal, social, societal perspective. And this is something that I really like to see. And I hope you will take that challenge in your book. How can we develop a discourse where we are able to develop a robust discourse on a value-like compassion without somehow being seen as wishy-washy or bringing religion through the back door or something like that, but somehow, because if you, the irony

is that if you ask individually, most of us would say, yeah, I value compassion. And most of us would probably believe that I'm kind of a kind person. So which suggests that actually at the individual level, all of us value it. But somehow we haven't learned to develop a public discourse where we can really talk about compassion in a serious way. So I think in the political discourse, the more we're able to bring it, the chances are they'll be more common ground to get. But I feel like the word almost has been ground down into meaninglessness through overuse. Partly that, but partly also it has a baggage that is tied to religion true Yeah, yeah, but I feel like it's the religion religious people who have been overusing it. Yes, but I'm an

Part of the problem is up until now or until recently I don't even know what compassion means. I mean, I know you do But no, I think most people I mean most people I would argue will know. For example, most people will know compassion has something to do with someone who is suffering. Compassion has to do with someone who is in need. Compassion has to do with reaching out. Compassion has to do with feeling for. I think most people kind of know what it is. I mean, they may not be able to article it in a way that is clear and sort of defined.

But I think at a gut level, it's a bit like, you know, we may not be able to define what happiness is, but most of us kind of know what happiness is because we know when we get it. We may not be able to article it and define it. We kind of know when we're happy. But can I jump into this? I actually think people don't know what happiness is. I think people confuse happiness with excitement.

They think when you get what you want, you're happy. But of course, that is absolutely ephemeral. So that is the opposite of what I would view as happiness as an abiding piece of mind. Or sense of satisfaction. Absolutely. Sense of fulfillment. Meaning sense of satisfaction. Absolutely. Sense of fulfillment. Yes.

Meaning of connection. Sure. Sure. But even these individuals who tend to define have been as primarily in sensory terms or sensory gratification terms, when they get that deeper sense of experience, they will know what it is.

Yes. Yes. So the seed is there. Except the confusion about what makes people happy, in turn makes people do a lot of stupid stuff. Yes, yes. I mean, this is one thing about human beings. We don't really learn from other people's experience.

We have to make the mistakes ourselves. So what would you say? You talked about it from a macro level, compassion from a macro level, but what about for those of us who live in this country and may find ourselves on one side? How can we take compassion seriously in a way that would make us better citizens and less crazy and distraught every time we turn on the news. I think one important insight that comes from Buddhism, which I think is very helpful in this kind of conversation, is that the argument that compassion and instinct for kindness

is a very fundamental part of who you are. And when you are able to express that, you actually feel gratified. You actually feel happy. You actually feel a sense of purpose. And we all know that even whether it is at our workplace or at home, when we are needed, when we are useful, we feel kind of valued. So this is a very fundamental need that the humans have.

Yeah, in your book, Afriel is Hart, you talk about the helper's high. Exactly. I actually have a chapter in my first book called the self-interested case for not being a word that starts with a D and ends with a K. And I think it's true that my instinct is that to talk about compassion

from a selfish standpoint is the way to go. Exactly, and that's actually what his role in this promote. That's, yes, right. And he says that if you want to be a wise selfish, compassion is the way to go. And it's a kind of almost paradoxical. And sometimes some other people have said, you know, how can Dalai Lama say that it's good to be selfish and my argument is

explanation is that he's not advocating selfishness but he's saying that since pursuit of self-interests is an important the drive that all of us have anyway then he's making the case that if you take that seriously then be compassionate so the point I was trying to make is that since we have that within us, the more we are able to live from that place, the more we are able to view others from that place, the more we are able to view ourselves from that place, our own life becomes more meaningful, more enjoyable.

So that is the self-interest argument. The paradox is, in an ideal world, you don't want to be doing compassionate because it's good for you, because in actual act of compassion, the focus is really the other. Whether it is trying to help your kid or whether it's trying to help a poor person or whether you's trying to help a poor person, or whether you're trying to help, and elderly trying to cross the street. You can't both be true simultaneously. Well, in an actual act of kindness, the conscious motivation is going to be about the other.

Yes, but having, transcending your own narrow self-interest, is pleasing in and of itself. Exactly, Yeah. And that's not a contradiction. It's basically when we act out of kindness towards a fellow human being, we feel a sense of connection. I mean, at the core of the feeling of compassion is an identification. That's why compassion is very different from pity.

Pity tends to look down. You put yourself in a superior place. Whereas compassion tends to be more respectful because you are identifying with other person. So when you're able to do that, you feel in some sense, you feel enhanced, you feel kind of expanded. So it is good for you, but in the actual act from a psychology point of view, the conscious psychology will be really about the other. So back to our political scene, say I'm a pro-Trump

and people who love Hillary Clinton drive me crazy. How could compassion be useful for me? I think compassion will force you to at least make you try to move beyond the surface of the differences and try to understand why certain person holds such an opposite point of view so strongly and so deeply. Why are they doing this? And the moment you ask that question, why,

then you are able to connect. Because at the basic level, even though two people may be holding a completely different political opinion on a given topic, the reason why they're holding those views, if you start digging deep, they may be the same. You know, they have, you know, they happen to have a different conception of how society should be structured, how to get there.

And the difference is, I really about the method and the means, not about what. So that allows you. And if nothing else, it prevents you from being hateful. And that is a gift in itself. Because you don't really want to go through the route of hating someone. There's a great expression from the Buddha that anger has a honey tip, otherwise it feels good a honey tip, but a poison root.

So it can feel, there can be a little bit of dopamine associated with sending a mean tweet or whatever. But actually in my experience, it feels better not to be carrying around a backpack full of hate all the time. It's tiring. Yes. Yeah, it's basically. It's tiring, yeah. So let me ask you about this.

There was this meta analysis, a journal article, a scientific journal article recently, and they looked at a lot of studies of meditation, not just compassion meditation, but mindfulness meditation. And, well, you'll tell me what they concluded because you know the study better than me, but I saw all the headlines, I'm gonna pull out,

because the headlines were amazing. Essentially, one of them was meditation does not make you a better person. And there are tons of headlines about how meditation basically is complete baloney because it's not, it's going to not make you a better person in any way. Is this study onto something? Or is there a problem here?

No, no, I think the study is a very important one. Actually, it's a meta-analysis. It's a very, very recent study. And also, it's very timely, because there's a kind of a hype right now. And sometimes, the people who are advocates of meditation sometimes give the impression that this is the panacea. And in fact, at the beginning of that study, I was surprised to see there was a quote attributed to his solaness saying that if every child learns to meditate at age of eight, in a generation, there will be no violence.

I mean, his solaness is not that naive. I don't know how that quote got attributed to him. So that was that. But you translate for him. So, but I think the the point about that article I think is this is one thing about Western consumerist society when something works, okay, people then latch on to it. And then everybody sort of jumps the bandwagon. And then they start believing in almost like a kind of, well, we call it miracle of mindfulness meditation.

So people close their eyes and then expect there is some kind of miracle going to happen. So there is that danger. But if you look at the traditional, for example, Buddhist understanding, which is one tradition from where meditation practice came from, but it turns out that even in the Western tradition, there was in the Greek orthodox church, there used to be a strong meditation tradition.

But it's a very simple tradition. Yeah, centric pairs and so on. So if you look at the Buddhist tradition, really transformation isn't really seen as just a function of meditation. It really is seen as a function of combining a couple of things. One is knowledge, which this concept of mind-changing mindset, that is an important part of the Buddhist idea of one factor for transformation. You need to learn to see the world and yourself in a different way.

So knowledge is an important part of it. The other one is intention. You need to somehow prime your, you know, kind of, you know, instincts, prime your behavior in a way that you would want it to be. So there's a conscious intention setting that remembering yourself, the value of compassion on a daily basis, what you value and how you want to live your day. So the Tibetan Buddhist set their intention every morning

so that it becomes a sort of a set that tone for the day. So conscious intention setting is another important point. And the third one is, of course, meditation. And meditation, in the way in which it's understood, the tradition is not just a process by which you calm your mind, which is one part of it, and being aware and be staying in this present. But meditation also has another function, which

is a process by which you internalize this new way of seeing things so that it gets processed. So that transformation of your behavior, which is where you want to see the results, is really seen as function of combining these three things, knowledge on the one side, new way of understanding things, internalization of that through meditation, and learning to regulate your own negative emotional reactions, and then setting your intentions consciously so that you on a daily basis make connection

with your day-to-day activity and the values that you hold there. And that's how transformations can take place. So that's why in the Cambridge, not Cambridge, the Stanford Compassion Training, which we now offer through a nonprofit organization called Compassion Institute, Intention Setting is an important part of it.

And also having some understanding of the psychology, basic psychology of the human mind, is it important? Have you studied where your program changes behavior? Well, in the study that was the meta-analysis, one of the papers that came out of our program was listed there. But I think it's too early to now look at it. So the basic point that the meditation alone does not alter behavior, I think it's a fair point. But even the authors weren't sure, they didn't say meditation alone does an alter behavior.

They basically said the studies themselves are just not designed well enough. It's a problem with the methodology. Exactly. And they were, you know, one important point they were making was that mindfulness and compassion meditation do seem to enhance on two pro-social emotions, compassion and empathy, but the effects on prejudices and connectedness and aggression was almost non-existent. So that was an interesting thing,

because if that pans out, it raises a powerful challenge, because one would hope through compassion meditation, the feeling of connectedness with people of a different background would increase because a key part of compassion meditation is the reinforcement of the recognition of common humanity. So just like me. What does this give you any, does this create any doubt in your mind

about whether what your teaching works? No, I think it's too early. I mean, right now many of the meditation research is pretty crude. I mean, it's pre-imposed, and many of them don't have active, you know, control comparison. Can you explain that because I'm not sure if it pre-imposed. Well, pre-imposed is basically you test the people

before intervention is offered. Typically, there are eight big programs. MBSR and Stanford Compassion Cultivation Training, these are eight week programs. So you do some tests at the beginning. Then you offer the class, and at the end, you test. So some of these tests may have to do with, you know, whether it increases your attention

or mindfulness or pro-sociality or empathy or, you know, kind of empathy across a different background. For example, the racial bias test is also being used to test that. But then a good study would actually have an active control group, which is a similar program, similar structured, but it would be a different program that is offered. So these people will sign up for eight weeks of whatever it is, which involves something different, not the program itself. And then you would also have a wait listed group

who will get the program later, but they are signed in, but they are not given at the moment. So they're just waiting for the program. So there is an anticipation. So that might affect. So you then compare these three in the results. And if there is a significant statistical difference among the groups, then it is saying something.

So right now, there are very few programs, some research programs that do it because it's costly. So it sounds like it sounds to me that you strongly suspect that what you're teaching does work and that for 2600 years that people have been doing compassion meditation, it hasn't been a waste of time. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday's parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt

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to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So, but what about, for me, somebody's about to write a book about compassion? Do I have to just say right up front, like we have no evidence that this thing actually works? No, I don't think, I think the point is not about whether compassion meditation works. I think the point is how does it work and what needs to be combined with it. That's the problem.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people believe that the meditation is the penicillia. If you close your eyes and then sit there, something will happen. But what is more important, particularly, unlike mindfulness for compassion type meditation, even when you close your eyes and meditate, if you're doing compassion meditation, you are actually doing relational exercise. Compassion is always about,

even if it is towards yourself, it's a self-to-self relationship. So let me just put some meat on the bunter. So just for people who aren't steeped in how to actually meditate, basic mindfulness meditation is usually sit, eyes closed, back reasonably straight, bring your focus to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out, and then every time you get distracted, start again, and again, and again, and again. Compassion meditation is a pretty different modality

where you same posture, but you are envisioning. It's taught differently in different traditions. So I don't want to say too much about how you teach it because I don't know, but I know how it's taught in tradition, which I've been studying, where you close your eyes and envision people. You usually start with yourself, and then you move to a benefactor and then close friend and then neutral person.

Somebody you see but overlook often and then a difficult person and then everyone. And in each case, you repeat silently in your mind a set of very happy phrases like may you be happy, may you be safe, et cetera, et cetera. And the idea is that just like in mindfulness meditation, where you're training your ability to focus and to not be carried away by your emotions, so you can see clearly what's happening in your head without getting inked around by it. So that's what's being trained and straight up mindfulness meditation and compassion meditation. In compassion meditation, what you're training is your ability to care about other people,

to feel connected to other people. And so anyway, I just want to say that. No, that's exactly. I mean, this is basic pattern is similar. The point I'm trying to make is that even when you are meditating in compassion practice, it's about a relationship. So therefore, compassion, in order for the meditation to work, you actually need to act it out. So you need to, you know, as a part of your compassion meditation practice, you then need to somehow practice it in your everyday life and seize the opportunity

whenever an opportunity for kindness arises. So therefore this, and then there is a true way, influence, that your compassion meditation makes you more aware when opportunities arise, because you are consciously thinking of compassion, you are consciously connecting with compassion as part of your intention, you are explicitly making that as one of your most important personal values. So all of this makes it easier for compassion to be more pronounced in your mind. So when an opportunity arises, then you express it, and that acting out reinforces your meditation.

So it needs to be, you know, because meditation alone is not going to work. Because it's a simulation. Compassion meditation is a form of simulation. So in order for that simulation, even the pilots who train in simulation, at some point they have to hold the real thing and fly it, you know. So, the same thing, the effect of compassion meditation really has to come from doing it on a regular basis. And start starting with yourself, people around you so that you know you're less

reactive, you're less self-centered, you're more attentive, you're more caring, you're more anonymous. I think I mean this is where I think the intention is the key because if... I mean I have the intention. I mean the intention is to reinforce this thing. Okay. You know, I have, I was going to talk to you later when we are dinner, that I have, I have an app that I was involved in, and because I'm such a big believer in the conscious setting of your intentions, in the app we have an intention setting device, so you choose up to five intentions and then you set your timer for reminder.

And then, for example, like one of the things that I ended up doing lately was, you know, at home, after around 5.30, I ended up looking for a glass of wine. And ideally, I wouldn't want to drink during the weekdays. And that, but my wife is French Canadian, and my in-laws are their loved wine and food and stuff. So I've got into the habit of kind of taking a glass of one regularly, which some people say it's good for your health, but I don't really like that much. So after this app, that was my first intention,

which says avoid drinking at home during weekdays. Come 5.30, it pings me, reminds me. So then I check whether I was successful or not, and then I track it across time. So this is how, and it works, because what you're doing is instead of trying to suppress it by avoiding thinking about it, you're confunding it like in a mindfulness type approach. The Tibetan idea is that it sets your intention in the morning,

and in the evening you quickly review it. No, I actually do this because I read your book, and so I do do what you think. And it makes a difference. I don't know. Well, I have to give my wife. So the point is that one needs to have a bit more nuance, understanding of how meditation is supposed to work, especially that compassion meditation, because just closing your eyes and imagining

is not going to do the trick. It needs to be reinforced by acting it out, and then one of the beauties of acting it out is that when you help someone, there's a joy that comes with it. And joy is what sustains your motivation. Because it makes you feel good. It enhances you. This is really important because I learned in my most recent book, so I wrote 10% happier

about four years ago than I just wrote a book called Meditation for Figuring Skeptics, and the goal of the second book was to get people to actually do the thing, and I had to learn a lot about behavior change science and habit formation. And what I learned was that willpower, just saying you want to do something and gritting your teeth and aiming to do it, is a terrible strategy.

And that fact, if you can tap into the mind to the brain's reward system, then actually you can create sustainable abiding habits because it becomes pleasurable to do. Definitely. So I've found that for me being less of a jerk actually does feel good on the level of the mind in the moment you're doing it. Yes. Just take the moment of holding the door open for somebody. If you're paying attention, it feels reasonably good.

That is, in my view, infinitely scalable. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think that this is one area where the new science of motivation is very interesting, because sometimes, and this is one area where sometimes a religion really sort of shows it's a lack of understanding of human psychology because it tends to hammer.

And hammer and hammer and hammer. And people who don't do it are seen as somehow weak willed. And you're right. The science shows us that expecting too much from your strength of your will is not a long-lasting approach because it is exhausting. If you rely too heavily on your will, so therefore having a strategy, I mean this is one of the reasons why, for example, many of the things that we learn from Buddhism

actually were initially designed to help the monks. You know, Buddhism initially was a monastic religion. It was designed to help the monks how to live their daily life without too much effort, because there are so many precepts. So mindfulness practice, or meta-awareness practice. These are all there so that the monks, and then they memorize all the pcepts. So you don't...

Precips are the basic rules for pcepts. Yeah, rules. And then you live your life because you create a structure so that you don't rely just on the excursion or will all the time. So I think here the joy and sense of fulfillment is really key. I mean it's you can push with your will to initially get motivated but to sustain it, will doesn't carry you there. So I expect that some I'm sure when we open up for Q&A which we're

going to do soon, people are going to ask this but I'll ask it first. If you're compassionate, are you going to get plowed over by your nihilistically cruel boss? No, well, if you act out of compassion in a wise way that shouldn't happen, because you should have the composure to be able to tell the boss at the right time that was not a nice thing to do. So, I think it's important because sometimes, you know, and this is where the Buddhist tradition insists that compassion should be combined with wisdom. Because kindness alone is not an answer.

But the Tibetan has an expression, idiot compassion. Yes, we sometimes call it misplaced compassion, but idiot compassion is not more from the middle of the sack. Go with the sack, go with the idiot. Just from a framing perspective, it is way. So I think, you know, being compassionate does not mean that you give in. But being compassionate requires you to, I mean, what it does require is to give the other person

the benefit of the doubt, that you don't immediately rush to judgment. That's what we normally tend to do. So you don't immediately rush to judgment. You give the other person benefit of the doubt. But on a closer look, what the other person has done was not only mean, but actually done intentionally, then you do need to stand up. But you can do so without losing your composure, because you understand the reason why this

person did it, he or she is doing it from a place of pain. And given the choice, the person may not want to do it. But sometimes, because they're in a more powerful position, they tend not to see that what they're doing is not the right thing. One last question for me, and I want to open it up. In traditionally, in compassion meditation, and I don't know if this is true for how you teach it,

but I think it is having read your book, that usually start with, or somewhere along the way, sometimes you start with or sometimes you build to Compassion for yourself. Yes, a lot of people really struggle with that. Why is this so important? I mean this is this is very interesting I by the way, no problem. Yeah This is a very interesting question actually. The first protocol that I developed of when I was Stanford, used the traditional format. So we begin with a little bit of mindfulness type practice to settle your mind and basic meditation skills, then self, then a loved one,

and then so on. But then the teacher who taught it to undergraduate, he and I, sat down after he taught it twice and he said, many students were just struggling. They just get stuck there. So it turns out that in the West, self-compassion is for some strange reason, a real challenge for many people. That somehow, they just, even some people have a versus reaction to thinking about the often phrases to you also saying, may I be happy? You know, may I find peace? There's a kind of a aversive reaction even to thinking about that phrase directed to oneself. So, but my own feeling is that I don't think you need self-compassion to have

compassion for others because I would argue compassion for others is a more fundamental human trait than for self because we are social creatures. Right from where we get go, we are always latching on to, you know, if a child is latching on to a mother. You know, there is a relationship with what defines us. So your perception of the other is probably more fundamental in relationship with others more fundamental. So I would argue compassion for other is probably more fundamental impulse than for self. But to sustain compassion for a long time, long term,

if you don't have a basic level of self compassion, Но для destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions, destructions,

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So I would argue that in order to have sustained compassion for many other others, you do need a fairly solid basis of self-compassion. Let's open up for questions. It's my actually always my favorite part. Does anybody right there? And so we'll work our way through. Yep. So the one word that hasn't been part of the discussion is ego. And in a lot of the readings that I've done and thinking

that I've done about meditation, there's the issue of the ego. And meditation actually allowing you to relax, but also to tamp down the ego. And it strikes me that if you're in the middle of a lot of hectic activity and you take a break and you're meditating, and then you get back to the hectic activity. Without there being some kind of change in the ego consciousness, then it's the equivalent of a four-year-old getting a timeout and becoming a four-year-old immediately again. And I would have to believe that if there is this other dimension of ego management, if you will, that over time it's cumulative and then the compassion component is more pronounced. So if you could maybe address that.

Well I'll let you answer the question but I just will say as the father of a three-year-old that often after the time out my kid is actually much better. So anyway but you carry. I mean he's an awful person, he's that baseline clear. I have been telling to start recently about how I walked into the nursery not long ago and he was gleefully urinating on his nanny's leg. And he had this great, you know, he was really happy about it and I looked at his face, I was like, oh, that's my face.

My co-anchor, Drew Ducang, one of my co-anchors on nightline says that she tells all of her friends, be careful who you sleep with because you'll end up raising him. That's a wise advice. I've had a few moments like this where I've asked the Dalai Lama completely inappropriate question and I've had to watch him translate. So to get to your question, I mean, ego is quite a complicated term. There's a lot of baggage behind it because of Freudian psychology and all these other.

But the basic point that has to do with some sense of self-image, some sense of self. And often, a lot of people have problem because of that relationship, perception of themselves. And I sometimes, because I sort of mix with many different kind of group settings. And sometimes you see individuals who are very well-meaning, kind-hearted, but then because they have this complicated relationship with their own sense of self, somehow this self comes in the way. And it's almost like they stumble on their own self. And this is probably what you mean by the ego issue. And here one would hope that by meditating, at least at the basic level, one will become

a bit more self-aware. Because in meditation, you are not only quite in your mind, you are in some sense taking a reflective standpoint, because normally, if you don't meditate, we are constantly reacting to a situation, and we are just being taken by the tide or wave. Meditation allows you to take a step back, be reflective, take a stand and observe.

So you learn to, you know, kind of disengage and learn to be an observer. And in this way, you begin to see certain patterns in the way you think, the way you are. You know. And many of our habitual thought patterns are formed quite early. see certain patterns in the way you think, the way you are. And many of our habitual thought patterns are formed quite early. And it's difficult for us to see, because they're such an important natural part of who we are. But by meditating, we begin to see those patterns

and the quirky things that you, as an individual, do. So you become more reflective. And that's the idea that if you are really meditating, you know, whether it is mindfulness type practice, or whether it is compassionate type practice, whatever it is, you know, all of these meditation practices require a cointaining your mind at the beginning, and taking that stance, and back and giving yourself that space. I think then these equal issues will become more and more obvious to you. And then once it becomes more and more obvious to you,

then you have a chance to handle them. Because at the bottom, all of us want to be nicer people. All of us want to be more fun to be with. All of us want to be nicer people, you know? All of us want to be more fun to be with. All of us want to be kinder. And sometimes our own quirky personalities and habits come in the way. And here I think meditation can really help, because one thing that particularly the modern mindfulness meditation, one amazing power of that is teaching individuals the skill

to have this meta-awareness, to step back and observe what's happening in the theater of your mind. And that ability to step back and observe is a powerful skill. Because, you know, and I would argue, this is exactly the reason why mindfulness-based cognitive behavior therapy is proving to be quite effective in prevention of relapse of depression, because often relapse of depression is aggravated by

ruminations and rination is a spiral thinking. You start believing in the story that you tell yourselves whereas mindfulness, if you're meditated, cultivated, it teaches you the skill to catch yourself. And then step back and say, well, this is just a thought. This is just a thought and observe it. And it immediately cuts that spiraling energy so that you don't get sucked into this.

And that's the reason I would argue, that's probably the one of the main reasons why it's proven to be quite effective in preventing relapse, not so much treating, but preventing relapse of depression because it helps you deal with the rumination. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Any other questions? Gentlemen in the second row here. Hi. Can you be truly compassionate without understanding suffering?

I mean, in a way that you have to understand someone else's suffering to be compassionate. And if so, how to do that in a society where we deny our suffering so much? I think all of us know what suffering is. It doesn't really matter how successful you are, how famous you are, how rich you are, how enlightened you are, it doesn't really matter. I think we all know what suffering is. You know, this is one powerful insight of the Buddha, suffering, the fact of suffering, the reality of suffering is part of what makes us human beings.

And I would argue that actually the vulnerability to pain and sufferings is what makes us empathetic creatures. And the reason why when we see a total stranger bleeding and crying, we instinctively feel for this person because suffering is such a powerful connector. You know, we don't need to know all the ins and out of the details of that particular person's situation. We know what suffering is. We know what pain is. We know what suffering is, we know what pain is, we know what need is.

So, I don't think we need to know the specificity of the situation. Of course, if you know more about it, the chances of being able to empathize deeper is that. But even without that, because otherwise it will be very difficult for a man to be having a compassion and empathy for a woman who is going through a certain painful experience that only woman can go through. So the idea that somehow we cannot empathize with that just doesn't make any sense. But of course, you're right. In some cases, when the suffering is not evident, and on top of that, when there are counter forces

like prejudices and so on, based on the differences of religion or some complicated history, then in those cases, then we need to make an effort to find that connection. Without finding that connection, we won't feel compassion. And in fact, what happens in a depersonalization and demonization of other group is exactly the opposite of what happens when you're able to connect with other group and feel empathy. If you disconnect, then in order to do horrific things on other people, somehow we need to depersonalize that person first.

We need to, you know, kind of objectify, first of all, objectify. And then in some cases, demonize to justify what we are doing against those people. And this is what we see in history. So that's why I think advocating compassion across differences is really such an important point, because it allows us the ability to find a common language of humanity. So compassion discourse can actually be the powerful antidote

for discourse that divides us. Front row, then I see you behind. My question is actually the opposite of the question that was just asked for those people who are in the business of caring for others like nurses or doctors. People who are constantly in a position of providing the compassion I care, such term as compassion fatigue. So for those people, how do we maintain the level of compassion and without getting so burned up? Well, thank you.

This is a very, very important question. And now the science is beginning to make distinctions between empathy and compassion and beginning to recognize, actually, even at the brain level, the expressions are a little different. And one of the, you know, it is a promise in the compassion training program

is some possibility of teaching individuals, particularly at the forefront of these kind of, you know, acute caregiving, the ability to not disconnect because sometimes doctors and nurses, you know, as part of their self-protection mechanism, they learn to detach, and they learn to depersonalize the patient, so that they don't have to deal with the pain. And that turns out to be actually in the long run not a good strategy, it actually eats into you. Like the doctors in the mash making jokes.

Yeah, exactly. It turns out to be quite, and it turns out that this is one of the main causes for physicians burnout, deep personalization of the patient. But on the other hand, if you're constantly exposed and if you're open, then how do you avoid the other extreme of just getting compassion fatigue?

So here, the compassion institute that we have recently established to take on this work of propagating this compassion training, we are in the middle of a collaboration program with a couple of hospitals and some doctors on developing a special module to deal with physician burnout so that they can be taught certain skills. And the idea being that you can be empathetic, but not get stuck in empathy, to move on to compassion.

And the distinction between empathy and compassion is empathy is more emotional. You are resonating, you are feeling for. And so the focus is really the problem. When you are able to move to compassion, then the focus also becomes a solution. What can I do? It's a more empowered state of mind.

So because it also has, and in the scientific research, particularly, Ritanya, singer singer in Germany. She has done a lot of these work and turns out when people are asked to move from empathy to compassion, the motor regions, pre-motor area, which are connected with acting out, gets more active. So, there seems to be a more proactive. So those are very early days, but hopefully, I mean, we have quite an ambitious plan right now at the Convention Institute working with some hospitals. So hopefully something like this will come out. Thank you. Sir.

Thank you. I mean, at the end of the day, all meditative forms want the more developed part of our brain, the neocortex to influence the more primitive parts of our brain. The problem with the discussion and the study suggested is that things like motivation and attention is an irreultively developed part of the brain. Things like compassion and dopamine surge around the feel good is also quasi-developed, but hate prejudice. That's in the most reptilian part of our brain and the most difficult to control.

So shouldn't meditation not be one size fits all, but more directed to the neuro sciences that we do know? That's a very, very good question. I would actually take issue with the idea that emotions like hate and aggression and anger are more fundamental than emotions like kindness and compassion. I would take issue with that. Because even from a scientific point of view, we are biological and social creatures. And social creatures and biology evolved in such a way

that we, there's a mechanism built in us to sustain that relationship and to nurture it. So this is one of the tragedy of modern science narrative. Modern science narrative has focused so much on the aggression and the competitive part of the narrative of the human evolution, but and the competition, but it completely disregarded, until recently, now it's changing. The other side of the story, which is our nurturing impulse, our caring impulse, and the evolution of cooperation. It turns out that if you don't take into account this impulse for nurturing

and connection, we can't explain evolution of human complex cooperation. So I will take issue that I would argue that impulse for nurturing and connecting and craving for others kind of, you know, affection and love is as fundamental as other forces like aggression and hate. Now, attention and emotion regulation and those kind of things are of course has to do with preference to cortex. They are much later developed, but the more emotional kind of brain, including empathy and compassion, I would argue are more fundamental. So, and the point you are making about one size fit all is an important one.

And sometimes there is a tendency in the mindfulness community to somehow suggest that this is the panacea for everybody. And sometimes some people would even want to argue that this is the essenceacea for everybody. And sometimes some people would even want to argue that this is the essence of the Buddhist meditation and then the rest is all kind of rituals and cultural kind of things. And I have, on several occasions, said that

that actually is not very helpful. It's one thing to say we have extracted something from the Buddhist techniques and secularized it because it's a universal skill that's perfectly fine. But then to suggest that somehow this captures the essence of Buddhism is not a very helpful because, you know, Buddha, if you look at the meditation, for example, now we have the mindfulness practice, we have loving kindness practice, we have now compassionate practice. And there's a whole suite of meditation practices in the Buddhist tradition.

There's a whole approach in dealing with anger. If you look at Shanti Deva's text, there's a whole chapter on this. There are many different types of meditation in these resources. In fact, the tradition says that, for example, according to the meditation theory in Buddhist text, we identify six or seven main personality types. And depending on the personality type, it recommends certain types of meditation. So that's why my point is that the meditation research now

is still in a very early stage. At the moment, we are looking at a very generalized understanding and we haven't even gotten close to understanding the mechanism of how it is working. We do know that there are some effects, that it is helping X, Y, and Z. We do know, but we don't know how it works. We don't even know which one are the more active ingredients. We don't know to what extent the effects we are seeing as a result of this gentleness of the teacher who is giving the class. I mean at this point honestly we don't really know.

You and I come at the science from a slightly different standpoint. You come at it as somebody who's engaged in the scientific process. I come not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. and our culture, and it's really useful for me to talk about the science. So you might start meditating because you think your prefrontal cortex will change. But you don't keep meditating because that. I completely agree. Yeah.

We've got all sorts of questions here. When you start in the front, then I see you up there. Yeah. You spoke a bit about the West's relationship to self-compassion? And I wondered if you could, I think I guess especially in our society that self-compassion is seen in direct opposition to our society's ideas of pushing yourself or getting ahead. And so I wondered if you could talk a bit about your views on

that thought process and also where that line of thinking might be incorrect. I think at the heart of the problem of self-compassion for those who are struggling is I think it's the problem, part of the problem really has to do with a sense of self-worth. If your sense of self-worth is completely defined externally, then you have a problem. If you can define your sense of self-worth not just externally as a good father, as a good parent, whatever it is, or as a successful person, but also internally as someone who is a human being and all the rest, then there seems to be less problems. So I think it has to do with sense of self-worth.

And I think being self-kind, kind to yourself, really doesn't mean just slacken that leash. I don't think it means to be self-indulgent. Sometimes in the West there is that tendency to be self-kind, you should treat yourself and have a chocolate or kind of thing. So it's almost like infantilizing yourself. So I think the genuine self-kindness presupposes that you have a healthy attitude towards yourself and healthy self-image.

And then also from that comes a healthy impulse towards you so that you treat yourself with kindness. And that should manifest particularly when you're going through a difficult time, when you have a failure, disappointment. That's when it is so crucial so that you learn from that experience rather than beating yourself. Because when you beat yourself, then you become your development, aversive reaction to that kind of experience,

and then every time you have a failure and disappointment, you completely lose your composure, you lose your bearing. So I think this is one area where self-kindness, being in a self-kindness involves being able to relate to yourself as a human being, with all the complications and weaknesses and failings and so on, but at the same time a human being who deserve happiness just like anybody else.

And it's a more realistic sense of who you are. And of course, his loneliness is that when you talk about competition, there's a positive kind of competition, which is motivated by not wanting to be left behind. Whereas the negative competition is you're willing to stand up on others to get on the top. So you would want to avoid that, but that doesn't mean you should not compete. You would want to compete because you want to bring the best out of you, and you, and contribute the best that you are capable of. So I think being self-kind, for example, if you look at someone like his all in his,

he's got a very healthy dose of self-compassion. But he's not laxed. He's very hard-working. He's got a quite a high standard for himself. He gets up at 3.30 a.m. in the morning, does his thing, is constantly interacting with others. Does his thing, is free hours of meditation, just like that? Meditation. So you can see that having a healthy dose of self-compassion does not mean that you're being so stressed on yourself that's, this is where I think

it's important to make that distinction. Sometimes, you know, because of this kind of, you know, that the consumerist culture is very complicated. On the one hand, it's all about self-gratification, you know, and not just self gratification, but the gratification right now. But on the other hand, we also, the culture in the rest has this aversion towards thinking about yourself. Because probably that has to do with the culture background of, you know, Christian value system and all the rest of what I know, what else it is. So this creates a very complicated relationship itself. So and for someone like myself coming from outside, and you know, who's brought up in the Asian culture,

seeing this paradox is interesting. It's very obvious. But if you're living, if you're part of that society, then it's not very obvious. And just as anthropologists are able to point out all the weird things about my own culture, but I don't see them because I'm part of it. So in the west, I think this is where I think the self-compassion, language and the message is a serious one, and we need to somehow find a distinction between self-absorption

and genuine self-compassion. Self-absorption is ultimately not a healthy thing. We've been young women right there, they're hand up. And if I missed you, we're going to be signing books. And if you buy several books, I'll answer whatever question you want. Thank you. I appreciate it very much. The discussion about is meditation enough, is mindfulness.

Meditation enough, is compassion meditation enough for really seeing change in behavior in particular. And the thing that's been coming to mind for me as you've been speaking is about what's happening in Myanmar around the violence against Ruhungi Muslims and in part incited by some Buddhist monks. And so I'm wondering if you might comment on that and talk a little bit about what hope there is for the rest

of us if Buddhist monks in an area that's steeped in Buddhist philosophy can still sort of may still be engaging in behavior that's really more about us versus them rather than a collective experience. Just because you wear robes doesn't mean you meditate. Well, thank you for the question. This is a very, very painful history right now, what has happened to almost a million Rohingyas, refugees stuck in Bangladesh, and also how the majority of Hermes Buddhist community has responded to that situation through denial and not even using the term Rohingya to refer to the community, all of this. I know this is a source of great pain to his solaness, his solaness brought to Anshanshuji several times. in the ancient times, in fact, even before the major crisis began, when they were beginning

to emerge, his holiness met with Anshanshuji twice, and in both occasions he brought this up and said he was very worried that there is a real potential for explosion here and needs to be addressed. But one thing that we learn from this, Bramiz Buddhist kind of majority attitude, Buddhist majority attitude towards what's happening to the Rohingyas is a powerful truth about human beings. It doesn't really matter how beautiful a teaching is. The moment we use the label mind and hours,

we have the ability to really make the differentiation between us and them. And turn even something like Buddhism into a vehicle, an instrument for oppression. So we, Buddhists would like to say that we have less things, skeletons in our closet in terms of history. But the fact is, if it is a religion, it will get used. And religion tends to somehow tend to pull

at a very deep level of identity and emotion for those who believe in them. And once you turn something like this into a basis of national identity, an ethnic identity, then you can justify anything in the name of protecting that. And this is what has been powerfully demonstrated. And Buddhism cannot escape. No matter how beautiful the actual teaching itself is, we humans, society can turn it into a weapon

that will be used in a negative way. And unfortunately, that's what has happened. And I know that there is a movement on Western Buddhist teachers who collected signatures, you know, Jack Confield was involved in this and trying to somehow draw attention. And also, I think it was Budedasa, not Budedasa, one of the major teachers here, who, in fact, did a special compilation of all the teachings from the Buddhist sutras, talking about the importance

of, you know, harmony in society and having compassion for the, you know, people other than your own tribe and all of this, been compilation, these were translated back into Burmese language and distributed. So there is an alternative voice too, although right now that voice doesn't seem to be strong enough to really kind of counter what seems to be the main position.

And to what extent this is being instigated by the military itself and the civilian government is just too terrified because they worried that they might use it as an excuse to turn back the clock. To what extent that is what is causing the restraint. And to what extent the monastic silence is caused by fear, I'm not sure sure.

It seems to be a very, very complicated and sad situation. And I think the Buddhist world should really speak up in union, in a single voice, to say that not in Buddhism's name. That really has to be the point made. It's if you're talking about nationalism and ethnic division and ethnic differences, it's one thing. But you cannot use Buddhism as a basis and excuse

for treating a whole community of people who are different and somehow justified by in the protection of the Dharma. That's ridiculous. So I think the Buddhist voices that matter needs to speak up. Thank you. Very well said. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. Applause. Great job. Thank you to the Asia Society. Thank you for everybody for coming out tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Okay that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast if you liked it please take a minute to subscribe, rate us. Also if you want to suggest topics you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B Harris. Importantly I want to thank the people who produced this podcast Lauren Efron Josh Cohen and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music.

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