Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 135: Paul Gilmartin, The Battles in Our Heads, Uncensored

Episode Date: May 16, 2018

Comedian Paul Gilmartin was the host of TV's "Dinner and a Movie" for 16 years, but smiling and acting happy on-screen often "felt like lifting 500 pounds," he said, as he struggled behind the scenes with depression and even contemplated suicide. When the show ended, Gilmartin launched "The Mental Illness Happy Hour" podcast, which he said has been a valuable outlet that allowed him to work through his claims of being sexually abused by his mother and helping others with their own personal struggles. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

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I'm Dan Harris. Fast and even guess this week, as always, Paul Gilmarten, the host of the Mental Illness Happy Hour podcast. We get into some really, really interesting, greedy areas. And speaking of that, I want to just issue a little disclaimer at the top here. Some of this stuff is quite greedy, I think very brave, but quite gritty. And I just want to warn you in advance that if you're feeling sensitive today, maybe not the best thing for you because he talks a lot about his own personal struggles with mental

illness and abuse. And if you're listening to this with little kids in the vehicle or in the space, then you maybe go to another episode just for now. But it's great and powerful stuff. Paul Gilmarten is coming up, but first, a quick item of business and your voice mail. The business item is that we're hiring, not here at the podcast, but at the 10% happier app company, we're hiring, not here at the podcast, but at the 10% happier app company, we're hiring. If you like what we do,

we are actually looking for a software developer, a digital marketer and some content producers at our offices in Boston. So you can learn more at jobs.10%happier.com. Jobs.10%happier.com. All right, let's do some phone calls. I hear my usual caveat, which is, you may be tired of me saying this,

but I feel compelled to say it anyway. I'm not a meditation teacher, just a reporter who writes about meditation and does some meditation. I'm not a mental health expert. I answer these questions on the voicemails to the best of my ability. I have not heard them in advance,

so I reserve the right to be completely wrong. Here's a voice mail number one. Hi Dan, I just finished listening to your TN episode this Bob Roth, and I really, really dug it. I've been skeptical about it forever, I've been doing mindfulness meditation for a long time now. And after listening to that podcast, I feel ready to try it and to

go forward with it. I also was really blown away that you had said that you were ready for this. So that was big too. I want to know if you've done it and I want to know how it went and I want to know if you learned from Bob Roth and just to drop it like that saying, hey, I'm going to learn it from you. When you're one of the biggest skeptics I know about all of this also, I need answers to those questions. So I hope the TN experience went really well.

How that went with you could really impact a lot of us out there that are looking to broaden our meditation practice. So I hope you get around to this one. Thank you. This is Frankie Cashman. I also hope you get around to this one. Thank you. This is Francy Cashman. I also have all you ones, Twitter. Thanks, bye.

Thank you, Frank. You appreciate it. Bad news is I've done nothing. I'm a horrible lazy person. Well, actually, I'm a horribly over-scheduled is really the problem. I haven't done anything, but I've still touched with Bob. We email, not infrequently, and I will do it.

I'm very interested in trying it. I'm not skeptical of the practice. I mean, he might quibble with what I'm about to say, but basically, the TM practice is also known as Vedic meditation where you use a mantra. It's been around for like 3,000 years, maybe more. So I'm not super skeptical that there's some science that suggests it's really good for you. So I'm not super skeptical of the practice.

As you may have heard in the podcast with Bob Roth who's the head of the David Lynch Foundation and also a very high ranking official within the Transcendental Meditation Organization. I do have some questions about the organization and the founder, Maharejima Hashiyogi, who made some kind of interesting claims. I like Bob personally and I'd be happy to go learn from him and I retain the right to retain my skepticism on various aspects. But again, I really do think I've seen no evidence to suggest that the practice is not a healthy one and a significant amount of evidence to suggest it is a healthy one. So I'm glad you're checking it out. And my view basically on meditation is that while I, you know, it's easy to fall into the

kind of sectarian ruts, but, you know, I'm pro meditation generally. I do happen to practice Buddhist meditation or, you know or at times what might be referred to as secular mindful meditation, which is derived from Buddhism, but it's stripped of this sort of metaphysical stuff. I do the Buddhist variety, although I'm agnostic on all the metaphysical claims, I've seen no evidence personally for reincarnation, et cetera, et cetera. But just because I am a Buddhist, it doesn't mean I'm super like dogmatic about, you know, that's the only kind of meditation you should do. I think what we know now is that the mind is trainable.

That's the big deal. The mind is trainable, and there are lots of ways to do that, lots of kinds of meditation. And so I think you should sniff around, find the one that's best for you, and give that a shot. And then over time, once you have a grounding and one kind of meditation, well then I think that it might make sense to kind of do a little broadening

and you've got a firm foundation, you can then try to diversify your practice. So I said a lot without actually, you know, without giving you satisfaction on what you really wanted, which was what was it like for me when I got trained by Bob Roth? Haven't done that yet, but I know that I will at some point.

All right, call number two. Hey Dan, this is John from Webinar and Pennsylvania. First and foremost, great job so far. You're doing amazing work, so I much appreciate it from over here in Webinar. My question for you is, I find myself having an easier time being mindful and doing my meditation practice in the weekends when things are easy going and there's no work. I guess my question for you is, do you experience the same things when it's the weekend and you're not doing your day job?

I know you're a busy man, but, or do you have mechanisms in place to get you back into the zone when you are going through stress? Or I imagine when you come back through, or come back from a retreat, you're probably in a nice state of mind, but then the real world happens and then you might feel anxious work or not in the present. So you have any ways to get yourself back in the present moment when you are experiencing moments of stress, specifically during the work week and not during the easy moments in life like the weekends and retreats and things like that. Thanks Dan,

much appreciated man. This is really important. You have put your finger on a really important thing. So I have a lot to say about this. First of all, I don't, I work on the weekends. I, so for me, there's never a weekend because I work on Saturday and Sunday mornings doing weekend, GMA here at ABC News, but also during the week, not only am I doing nightline, I'm also not only am I doing nightline, I'm also co-founder of this 10% happier company. So I'm working all the time, which, and I'm straying a little bit from what we really want to talk about here, but I don't want to make that sound like I'm complaining. I'm not actually, I love everything I do. I often describe it as drowning in chocolate, because everything I'm working on is so exciting to me, but there is certainly at times the aspect of drowning.

So that's something I really kind of have to have, keep my eye on and make sure that I've got enough balance, ongoing discussion of course with my wife and in my own head. Anyway, what you put your finger on that is really important is that there are times when it seems like you have a quote unquote better meditation because for in your case, it's on the weekend for both people. It's the weekend, there's less going on and you're in a commerce state of mind. But that actually, actually in my view is a bit of a misconception.

That's why I said quote unquote better because you've had an easier calmer, less distracted sit, maybe, maybe, and maybe even more physically comfortable sit because you're less stressed and stress control up in the body. That doesn't mean it's actually better in my view. In fact, there can be real value in my opinion and in my experience to the sits that we think we're tough, or where you're totally distracted because you've just come out of a busy meeting or you've just finished a busy day or you're heading into a busy day and you're just ambushed by all these thoughts of anger over what was said or what was not said, planning for what you have to do, rumination over things you maybe did poorly, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That is like actually, if you think about it like exercise, that's like a really tough workout. You know, instead of you know, pedaling through the countryside at leisurely pace, that's like, you know, going a Barry's boot camp or CrossFit where you're getting your butt kicked. And that's training for life where anything can happen at any time and we are not controlled. We are not in control.

We're living in a universe that, as I often say, is characterized by impermanence and entropy. And we need that training to be, you know, a supple in the face of how unpredictable our minds are and how unpredictable the exterior world is, which of course is all refracted through the lens of our mind anyway. So I wouldn't get to hung up on what you perceive to be a good sit versus a bad sit, do it consistently on all days of the week, if you can, or most days of the week, so that you're training in the comm times and in the less than comm times. All of what's the point here?

The point is not to, as Sharon Salzburg, the master meditation teacher has said, the point of meditation is not to become some great meditator. The point is to become better at life. So yeah, I think it's really important what you've zeroed in on there. And hopefully that, hopefully I've given you a useful reframing. And I know I said this at the beginning, but just bear in mind that these are better questions, these are questions that are, I'm stealing wisdom from people who really do know

what they're talking about, but I hope I'm stating it correctly. And I'm really speaking from my own experience here. But if you have access to great meditation tissues wherever you live or if you're on the 10% happier app and you can talk to one of our coaches who are much more experienced meditators than me, those are even better people to put the question to. But again, I think the right way to think about meditation is don't get so focused on trying to reach some special state, just get better and better and better as you will inevitably

through the practice. At seeing clearly whatever you're feeling right now, so that your feelings generally don't yank you around like a malevolent puppeteer. All right, let's get to our guest this week. Or just such a great guy, Paul Gilmarten. He's a stand up comedian. He was, you may have seen him for a long time. He was a host of a hit show on TBS called Dinner in a Movie. But he has for a long time struggled with mental illness. I mean, really serious struggles.

And you're gonna hear him talk about it. And he's decided in recent years to kind of make that the focuses of his professional life. So he's still funny, but he's very funny in the context I'm about to discuss, which is that he started a podcast called The Mental Illness Happy Hour, where it's totally cool to talk about all of this. Mental Illness of all flavors and all varieties, and it's not pretty, but it also can be funny.

I mean, it also, of course, is really sad and frustrating and poignant, and Paul does it all. He is, of course, a meditator as well, and he's lots of stories about how that has and has not worked for him. So here he is, Paul Gilmurne. How when and why did you start meditating? I first started meditating about, I want to say about seven years ago, there was a woman in my support group who was a hot mask. Wait, hold on a second, support group for what? For addiction. All right, I'm going to call in an audible here. Let's detour

into that for just a moment before we get to the meditation addiction to what? Alcohol, drugs, and how, which drugs? Mostly weed and then beer and wine. Those were my things, but I was kind of a garbage can. I would do, you know, if somebody had mushrooms or Coke or whatever, I would do them, but I didn't seek any of that stuff out. That's interesting to me, as a former abuser of cocaine. So you could casually do cocaine and not chase it.

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's brain is different. It's interesting. Uppers have never really been my thing. And to take another detour, after battling treatment resistant depression for, since essentially 1999, my psychiatrist recommended Adderall

and being a recovering addict, I thought, in a way. And then I met somebody in my support group who had been sober as long as I had, and she said, you know, I was skeptical, but I tried it, and I didn't, because it wasn't her drug of choice, she said, you know, I was skeptical, but I tried it. And I didn't, because it wasn't her drug of choice, she said, I have no desire to abuse it. And it has been a game changer.

And so I tried Adderall, and it has been a game changer. Really? Because I've been tempted to abuse Adderall. Yeah. So it just speaks to different proclivities. I think so. I think so. We should define what I, can you people what I had or all is yeah

Adderol is speed essentially it's a met methamphetamine and it it It helps me with that feeling I used to get every day after being up for about four hours that I had to lay down because the world was just too much. And yeah, it's a more productive, I'm on like a medium dose of it. But it's normally prescribed enough for depression, but for ADD, right? Yeah, but they've discovered that it can help with treatment resistant depression. So I'm so glad I gave it a shot because it's, yeah, depression is it can be so

so tenacious and yeah, no question. So we're deeply embedded in a tertiary tributary here. I've got a slow chart. Okay, so let's disembod from this third one, which was about uppers, and back to the secondary detour, which was about your addiction. So how long has that been going on? I mean, I started smoking pot and drinking when I was about 14. But that was a pretty high functioning drug addict alcoholic. For instance, I didn't drink during the day. There were many nights I could have two or three drinks and be okay. But it

progressed as I got into my 30s and began not knowing what was going to happen if I drank. I might be fine or I might be driving home with one eye closed because I'm seeing double. And I've never had a DUI, I've never lost a job because of it. I didn't lose any of the external stuff, but my bottom was really an internal emotional bottom where I was thinking about suicide 50 times a day. And this is in the middle of doing a 16 year run on a TV show and it was going great. I was making more money than I ever had. What was the show? Dinner in a movie.

It was a show on TBS from 95 to 2011. Essentially the show was we would show a movie and then you would see us in the break right before the commercial for two minutes, you know, maybe six times throughout the movie. And we would be doing the steps of a recipe themed around the movie. We would be showing. And we cracked jokes and give cooking tips and talk about the movie. And yet, it was a lot of fun.

It was really kind of in many ways a dream gig, but my depression was being exacerbated so much by the alcohol abuse that it was smiling for, you know, a full day on camera. And it was mostly improvised, so I really had to kind of be focused. It was like, felt like lifting 500 pounds to me. As soon as they would yell cut my face would drop and It it was just so much of my life was filled with a dread of facing the day so getting sober in 2003 Honestly because I thought I was gonna kill myself if I if I didn't

That gave my meds a chance to start to work. And so they did, but there was always kind of this last 75%, this last 25% that I couldn't seem to get over. And that's kind of where the Adderall helped. That's where the meditation helped. It's where going to another support group for intimacy issues helped. It's we're going to another support group for intimacy issues helped. So there's so many things that I have in my regimen to be functional and at peace.

But because I'm used to doing them, I don't even think about it anymore. It's just a part of my routine. That's a healthy habit. So, almost by definition. So you've gotten us very smoothly back to square one and the story. So you're saying seven years ago, there was a woman in your support group who was a hot mess. A hot mess, yes. And talking a mile a minute kind of just wound up, and which support group was this? The one for drugs and alcohol. Okay, so not the intimacy one. No, okay.

And she came in one day and she was a different person. And she was so much more chill and I said, you seem different and she said, I started meditating and I said, how did you learn how to do that? And she said, well, the type of meditation I learned how to do is transcendental meditation. And she got really into it and she became a teacher. And I said, can you teach me? And so she did. And I told her, I'm really skeptical

because in transcendental meditation, there's some ceremony involved in the first time they teach you how to do it. And I just, like I've always recoyled it, you know, that anything remotely new, A.G. You know, somebody mentions Mother Earth and I'm out of there, you know, to start over using the word sacred and I just shut down. There was a tiny bit. How do you do with finger symbols? Say that again.

How do you deal with finger symbols? Do you like those? I don't understand. Dream catchers. Did you redo music? Any of that in work for you? Oh, did you redo? Oh my God.

Actually, I don't mind the did you redo. But the classic kind of Sonoma, you know, the guru. Sonona, yes. In a row, I don't know, it's just a little too precious. I mean, I hear you, I hear you. So anyway, the TM, it did or did not work, not with. It did work, okay. And she said, I recommend you do it two times a day

20 minutes each time find a quiet place You know take your phone out of your pocket your keys your wallet Sit down close your eyes and she gave me a mantra which is part of transcendental meditation and you just Repeat the mantra in your mind Or you could say it out loud if you want it as well and it's a phrase that has no meaning and that's the point of it is that it disengages your brain from thinking about your day, thinking about, you know, whatever it is. And I, I think it was the third day I was doing it. It was after my afternoon session. I went to go wash the dishes and up until then any kind of household chore, it always felt like the 60 minutes clock was going in my head,

like these were things that were in the way of my life, and I had to plow through these to get to the point the good parts of my life. And I suddenly felt so relaxed and present that I realized doing the dishes were a part of my life and there's no reason why I can't give it my full attention and try to find something pleasurable and doing it. And I swear to you, Dan, it felt as I was washing the dishes, and maybe it was just because I slowed down, but it felt like my arms were moving through water, just like this flow, and I went,

wow, something is working. This is not a bunch of BS, and I became sole down it. a bunch of BS and I became sold on it. Now I don't do the afternoon one anymore. I slowly got away from that and I wish I could get back to doing it but I have been unable to get back to that second meditation, but I meditate every morning after I shower. And there's a lot of days, honestly, it's 20 minutes of me thinking about myself with my eyes closed. But one of the things she stressed is there's no bad meditation.

We've had on the show Bob Roth, who's the head of the things she stressed is there's no bad meditation. We've had on the show, a Bob Roth, who's the head of the David Lynch Foundation long time Transcendental Meditation Teacher, in 50 years, I think, something like that. Wow. But he says, even in a shallow dive, you get wet. I love that. What would you say in the simplest possible terms

for somebody who's got a long history of dealing with depression? Is the utility of transcendental meditation for you in the context of this overwhelming depression? One of the side effects of depression for me and a lot of people I know is the ruminating on I've got to get out of this depression. And it almost creates a maybe the anxiety was there always along with it, but there is often an anxiety to just facing the day because you've got this 50 pound backpack on your brain. And meditation has helped me let go of my ideas of how things should be. And to kind of be

more conscious about being in the present moment and just meeting it where it's at, you know, whether I just got in a car accident or, you know, I had a fight with a friend, it helps me step outside of my brain instead of seeing all of my thoughts as fact and reality. And so, it sounds kind of weird, but it has helped me not take what I'm feeling personally and add too much of it, almost like a way of instead of being in a traffic jam, being in the helicopter looking down at the traffic jam. Perfect. Yeah, it's perfect.

Exactly, you're stepping out of the stream, you're stepping out of the story. And even for a few nanoseconds at a time, to see it with some non-judgmental remove so that it doesn't own you. Yeah, and you begin to realize, when you experience those moments where the anxiety slips away, you begin to realize, oh, it's not I am anxious. It's I'm experiencing

some anxiety and it's something that is flowing through me. And I can witness it and not judge it. I can even self-reflect and say, what might be causing this. But meditation is really good, really helpful for me for distinguishing between self-obsession and self-reflection. Because the latter is super healthy and the former is really destructive. I had in Epiphany a couple of years into sobriety that nothing degrades the quality of my life

like obsessing about the quality of my life. And meditation is so good about introducing yourself to what you're obsessing about because when you find your thoughts wandering and you you know part of the practice is bringing them back to either your breath or your mantra well if you notice 50 times in 20 minutes, you're going to, I've got to make the podcast more successful. You can't help but understand, well, I'm feeling some anxiety about my podcast.

You know, what might be the fear underneath it, so it also helps me investigate what's going on inside me. It serves so many different purposes. Well, you brought us to the podcast. Let's talk about that. I prefer not to talk about that. I suspect that's not true. It's such an interesting show. I don't want to describe it because I'm not going to do it justice. Can you just talk about the genesis of the show and what it's grown into? Yeah, in 2010, late 2020,

2010 I went off my meds despite my psychiatrist strongly urging me not to. And I thought I was, you know, out of the woods, felt great. And then at about five months, the depression snuck back back in but I didn't see it for what it was I thought Oh my life really Does suck I will never be able to experience joy again because this is just who I am And I wanted to kill myself and then it occurred to me. Oh my god

This is the depression and I thought I've been in therapy for years and years. I've been in support groups. I see a psychiatrist. I believe metal illness is a real thing. And I was fooled by it. And I thought somebody has to talk about this in a way that is accessible because there was the kind of academic driveway

that I didn't feel was accessible. And then there was the kind of academic dry way that I didn't feel was accessible and then there was the kind of precious new AG way that turned me off and I thought what if you just talked about all the battles in our heads in a way that was raw on censored just how to close friends would would laugh and cry about how screwed up their their lives are that day or how screwed up they feel. Because in support groups, I realized the power of hearing someone's story that you relate to is worth dozens of therapy sessions, dozens of books, because it brought the thing that I needed most

in my darkest hours, which was comfort, and knowing that I'm not alone. And that helps with the anxiety. That helps build momentum for recovery. that helps build momentum for recovery. And so that's what I tried to do with the podcast. And as it began growing, I realized, wow, the listeners have some really interesting stories as well. And I started recording listeners as well as friends of mine, fellow

comedians, therapists, authors. Yeah, and so it's just kind of grown. So the podcast is half conversation like I had with you. If you haven't listened to Dan's episode yet, it's great. The other half of the podcast is listener confessions, which I read. They fill it out anonymously, about a dozen surveys we have on the website. I pick some surveys to read for each episode and they're mind blowing. They are. They are, I will say, having those into them.

Tell me with the name, the mental illness happy hour. And so you were trying to, I wanted to try to, I think, go ahead. Yes, I wanted to try to find a title that when people saw it they would go oh this is about the battle in our heads but it doesn't take itself too seriously. Right, you were trying to get that middle ground between New AG and Stereo. Yeah, and the logo also I think gets that across. It's a 60s station wagon.

And on the luggage rack is a gigantic prescription bottle. So because when I first came across it, I thought, maybe a little flip. But then you listen to it. And it just oozes realness. You know, and I listened to this and I thought, oh, this is probably helping a lot of people. You know, I don't want to toot my own horn, but I get really, really beautiful feedback from people who say that it helps them. And, which brings me to another topic, which is meaning and purpose, which has been every bit as important as, for me, meds, exercise, support groups, meditation, boundaries. There's, there was a feeling I was always chasing

when I was working as a stand-up comedian and a TV host that I would suddenly feel like, okay, I can relax now. And I realized, here's a telling example of the way my brain works. I'd always, whenever I would drive down sunset Boulevard, I would look at billboards of people on there and I would think they've made it. It's official. They're on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard. If I could just get my face on a billboard on Sunset Boulevard, then I would feel like, you know, it's official. I've made it because I would always say, well, my show is on basic cable. We show a movie. So you know, really the movie is the the star On and on and on. I just ways to obsess about myself, but one year the show took out a

Billboard on Sunset Boulevard and so I drove down to look at it and I look at it and I Lost respect for Sunset Boulevard And I look at it and I lost respect for sunset Boulevard. It's like that Groucho Marx joke. I don't want to be a club of a member of any club that would have someone to like me as a member. Exactly. Much more of our conversation right after this quick break. Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean?

How do I get the most out of my time here on Earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is Short, with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here

by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs, and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important

stuff. Like if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow Life is Short, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wonder Yeah. What you're describing is the, it's like with the Buddha had in mind when he said when he described suffering that that suffering is Well, it's many things, but one of them is thinking that The thing you want is gonna finally do it for you. Yep yep, and if I hadn't been forced

To go to support groups to stay alive, I wouldn't have discovered the power of helping. I wouldn't have discovered the power of being vulnerable, of asking for help, humbling myself. humbling myself and I suddenly had a different perspective on my life because when I would help someone else who was just like me, I found the piece that I thought I was going to experience from business success and that was a game changer for me. So does that mean like you... what does that mean? You become a monk? What's the logical extension of that? No, I stopped obsessing about what I think my path needs to look like, how many Twitter followers I have, or how often

I'm going on an audition, or how much I'm being paid, I surrendered to the fact that I can't control any of those things. I could do some footwork maybe to try to nudge them, but sitting in obsessing about that all day and being in a bad mood, you know, when I see somebody else having what I want is not making my life any better. is not making my life any better. So why don't I just do the things that bring me peace? And I discovered that when the dinner and movie got canceled

in 2011, I just started doing the podcast about six months earlier. And I thought, I really love doing the podcast. And I'm getting kind of tired of going on the road and doing stand up and going on auditions for TV. I kind of feel like this podcast is where I'm supposed to be because I feel such meaning and purpose from it. And I've always believed, or at least since I got sober,

that when you feel peace, that is kind of a breadcrumb on the trail to your most authentic self. And so I've just followed that. And sure enough, I'm able to support myself now doing the podcast. And I feel like everything I've been through in my life that has been difficult has been necessary for me to be able to do this show which helps people and helps really helps me. So you saying you no longer... You're not saying that you no longer, because you said the opposite earlier.

I think you're not saying that you no longer obsess about your Twitter followers or how your podcast is doing, et cetera, et cetera, because you said earlier that sometimes not as much. Okay. Not as much as I used to obsess about my show business career. You know, there's still those thoughts still come up, but now I'm able to be the helicopter looking down at them.

I can say, okay, I'm probably, there's probably some negative self-belief going on here, which is that I'm not enough that I need to feel special to be safe. And I know that those are all thoughts that have not worked in my favor. You know, what it has worked in my favor is the stuff that they teach in meditation, which is to be present. Practice principles that you believe in. And whatever the results are, meet them with a reaction that is principled. When you say doing the podcast helps you, what do you mean by that exactly?

Well, there was this thing that I was finally able to call covert incest. And it was my relationship with my mom had always been enmeshed and I kind of knew that but my wife at the time ex-wife now would always say to me you haven't given weight to what happened to you. You think you've dealt with the way your mom touches you, talks to you, looks at you, but you haven't. And when I was in the support group for intimacy, I began to peel away layers of the onion. You know, one of the ways that I used to soothe myself, especially after I stopped drinking, was pornography and video games. And when I started to cut back on those and un-num myself, I began to give weight to

what happened to me because I could feel in my body what I wouldn't allow myself to feel as a little boy because when you're stuck in a situation, your brain will cope with whatever it needs to do to avoid the truth of, I am stuck in a house with a parent who is not safe, who is predatory towards my body. She never touched my genitals, but there was a lot of really inappropriate, I'll give you one example, which is she took my temperature rectally until I was eight years old and asked her, why are we still doing it this way? There's a bunch of other examples, and I could always explain away each one, but in 2012 I looked at the pattern as a whole, and I am getting back around to your question,

this actually all leads to it. I had a meltdown when the truth of that finally hit me and I wanted to die. And one of the things that abuse survivors struggle with is going back and forth in their mind about whether or not they're making too big of a deal of it. The things that my brain would tell me was you're a baby, The things that my brain would tell me was, you're a baby, you're exaggerating, and you're doing this for attention. And then an hour later, I would feel completely differently. And it was a war going on in my brain,

trying to hold onto the image of my mom I had created to survive as a child. So I began talking about this on the podcast. And is she alive? She is alive. And she hears this? Yes. She, she, um, I think in like 2014 or 15, I had cut contact with her because I just couldn't, I couldn't be in the same room with her, I couldn't bear to even be on the phone with her. And then I tried having a communication through mail, but I asked for some boundaries to not be crossed and she didn't respect them. And so I cut contact for good. And she did find out that I was talking about it.

And I really agonized over whether or not I should talk about it. And the thing that I ultimately decided was this is my story. And the more people that stay quiet about their abuse, because they don't want someone to be hurt, the harder it is for them to heal, and the harder it is for somebody out there who was in a similar situation and has yet to give weight to their experience. The harder it is for them to heal. And it was a tough decision but I thought it was the right thing to do and I may regret it later on but she was obviously upset but then I think it it sunk in and she apologized but it

was also kind of not taking really taking responsibility for it and kind of blaming it on her childhood. And I know her childhood, which was horrible, contributed to it, but I wasn't looking for a reason why she did it. I wanted her to empathize with me and to show some type of concern about how might she help moving forward? How might she change and how she deals with me? And there wasn't any of that. You know, for instance, one day I told her, I know you want to be closer to me, but I don't feel safe around you. And she wasn't interested in wanting to know why. She didn't even ask any questions. She didn't say anything.

She just kind of looked through me. And so those were the things. It's not because she did those things to me as a kid that I don't have contact with her. I have empathy for her. I still love her, but I kind of look at it like a dog that bites. I love that dog. I wish it didn't bite, but I can't keep getting bitten. So talking about all of this stuff on the podcast, of this stuff on the podcast, I got so much support from listeners, from therapists, and it helped me let go of the shame. It helped me own my story and go from feeling like a victim to a survivor. And here's to me a good example of how I feel about

mothers who do this to their kids. The term covert incest was coined by a therapist. He wrote a book called Silently Seduced, which is an amazing, amazing book. And when he first started talking about this to his peers when he would be speaking, there was a lot of pushback. And like one woman, you know, shot up in the middle of his you know, shot up in the middle of his lecture and said, this is preposterous. And, but he just kept talking about it because he had so many clients who had experienced

this kind of under the radar, emotional enmeshment and crossing of boundaries in the bathroom and no privacy and kid being naked for reasons that were really questionable over and over and then there was a woman who stood up at one of his lectures and said thank you Thank you. I'm putting my son in therapy tomorrow That woman is a hero to me and that is the attitude I have towards people who have done that. Is it's not about labeling them as bad or evil. It's about what can we do to help this not happen again and for the people that's happened to for them to heal. And so the podcast has helped me

by helping other people heal. And the support I've gotten has helped me heal. A lot of moms who are listeners really, really helped me because they emailed me after I disclosed a lot of the things that I experienced. And they were like, that is not okay. And there was, you may have to edit this out because it's pretty harsh. But one mom sent me an email that said, I want to kick your mom in the, it, while I don't want anybody to do that to my mom,

I was moved by that protection that woman felt for that little boy that I was. And it made me realize that's the kind of protection a kid should have. He shouldn't be worried about defending himself. And the podcast helped me with all of that, as well as therapy and support groups. So given the weight and the the the seriousness of the issues that you're discussing on the show, even if you're trying to do it in a way that sometimes has levity to it, you know, would you ever get communications that I mean, you must imagine this happens a lot where you feel like oh Well, you actually need to maybe call the cops to prevent somebody from hurting themselves or something like that

I I have They've been very few and far between because one of the things I've Discovered is or you're talking about because somebody suicidal or because they're abusing somebody. I meant more suicidality. Yes, and I always write and say, I am so sorry that you are feeling this way. I am not a mental health professional and this is way out of my capability. I urge you to call the suicide hotline or your therapist or a mental health professional.

This is very serious. Please, please get help. So that's usually. And there's kind of two different categories. There's the people that are having suicidal ideation and the people who are like, you know, if things don't get better by Thursday, I'm going to put a gun on my mouth. And so I do what I'm capable of, which isn't that much, which is to say you're not alone. So many of us are battling and you are not doomed if you can just get help and keep trying to get help.

Don't give up. Would you say that your struggles with it's anxiety and depression, right? Would you say that those are the direct consequence of what happened in your childhood or the congenital factors or amix? Well, I said to my psychiatrist one day, what exactly are the words for what I have? And he said, treatment resistant to depression due to childhood adversity. So he believes that's the case. You know, I believe being an alcoholic, which I believe genetically, I believe I could have been raised in a perfect environment and I would probably still be an addict of some sort, but

I think the intimacy issues definitely have contributed to the depression and the anxiety and I believe that that is a result of the abuse. But who knows exactly where it is? A lot of the literature and the studies show that people who have experienced incest have higher rates of depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation struggles with intimacy and addictions. I have all of that. I was just going to ask you how do you explain given that, that Pope Marie that you just described, how did that lead you to comedy? How could it not?

Maybe that's the healthiest. It's my whole thing. Yeah, the healthiest company. It was, it was how I survived as a kid. When I discovered the high of making people laugh, it was a way for me to be seen that was on my own terms. Because I wasn't seen as a kid, I was given attention, but it was, it was unsafe attention from my mom. My dad was checked out, he just, he was an alcoholic, high functioning, but he just wasn't, he just wasn't present.

like high functioning, but he just wasn't present. He was there physically. So I think inside, I felt like my only purpose is to please other people, because my only sense of self was for making my mom laugh. You know, she would, by the time I was seven, she was complaining to me about how she wanted to leave my father and she would break down and cry and I would have to comfort her. And then there were times like when I should have had somebody protecting me and she was just standing there, just not doing anything. And not that she never protected me, but the message to me was, you're on your own buddy. And this wasn't a conscious message, but it was a feeling that I need to find love somewhere.

And so my best tool at getting affection and attention was making people laugh. So I thought, this is going to save me. And you're laughing why? Because it definitely, it manifestly did not. It validated a part of me. It validated the creative part of me. You know, there's a high in making a room full of people laugh for 45 minutes. But when you get off stage, you still have to face life having difficult conversations with

people. And I didn't know how to do any of those things. And comedy, no amount of comedy can help you in your air personal relationships. Most people get into comedy because they struggle with interpersonal relationships and they want to have the microphone. And it's a, it definitely helped me get a sense of self, but the most sense of self I've gotten has been from being sober, helping where I can, doing something for a living that has meaning and purpose to me, and just trying to live an honest life. I make mistakes all the time, but I try to clean them up, I try to apologize where I can, and that has given me the feelings that I thought fame and money were going to

come in. It's, I like to joke that all the stuff that I've been through. And essentially difficulties that any of us go through can oftentimes be a long-term gift in ugly wrapping paper. But if we don't get help, we don't get vulnerable, we don't connect to other people. We don't get to open that gift and experience that meaning and purpose. I don't wish the pain on anybody who's gone

through something difficult, but I wish the tools that they may have to develop to survive that they can then use in traffic at work and a relationship. I had to do all those things to stay alive, but now I get to use them everywhere, like in traffic. I used to, all those things to stay alive, but now I get to use them Everywhere like in traffic. I used to somebody cut me off. I would follow them Challenge him to a fight tailgate him

Nowadays, I don't take it personally. I just think well that the person's probably self-obsessed in a hurry filled with fear. I know what that's like. God, I'm glad I'm not like that anymore and I go from a flash of anger to gratitude. You know, I wouldn't have developed that tool on my own. So that's one of the gifts to me. That's a, I think probably a very nice place to leave it. Before I let you go though, let me, let's do the plug zone. Let's like just kill everybody where they can find you in the world. The website for the podcast is mentalpod.com.

The podcast is called the Mental Illness Happy Hour and you can find it on any of your podcast players. Yeah, fill out a survey on the website. Those are such a big part of the podcast. But yeah, give it a listen. There's some some great episodes in there. And you own social media. Oh, I'm so bad at plugging myself. Um, at mental pod on Twitter and Instagram. And Facebook pages, Facebook.com slash mental pod. It's important work you're doing. I recommend everybody listen.

It's really interesting. And I think quite meaningful. Right back at you, Dan. Right back at you, Dan. Thank you. Right back at you. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe, rate us. Also, if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at DanVHarris.

Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohen, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

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