Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 136: Sally Kohn, 'We Need to Fix Hate'

Episode Date: May 23, 2018

It was around the time she decided to go on her second meditation retreat that Sally Kohn, a gay, Jewish, community organizer turned political commentator, took a job as a commentator for Fox News. In her TV career -- she's now a commentator for CNN -- Kohn has experienced hateful personal attacks from online trolls and recently faced some backlash over her first book, "The Opposite of Hate: A Field Guide To Repairing Our Humanity," but with her book she has lead a conversation around finding compassion for those who trumpet hate. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

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the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast.

I'm Dan Harris. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey guys, interesting guest this week, she was a liberal commentator who worked on Fox News and she talks about her experience of doing that and also how meditation did or did not help during that process. She's got a new book about how mean we are to each other and ways to fix that. So we'll get to her in a second. First though, one item of business and

then some phone calls. The business item is that if you like what we do not here at the podcast, but at the 10% happier app, we're actually hiring in our Boston office. So we're looking for a software developer, digital marketer and content producers so you can apply at jobs.10% happier.com. All right. Let's do some phone calls. Hi, Dan. My name is Percy. I'm reading your second book and I came across that section that when Jeff tells you that you should enjoy your practice not only do it because you have to. I kind of related a lot with that because I think I do as well do it mostly because I know it's good and I know for the benefits and I want to commit to myself but not necessarily because I enjoy it. So I wanted to ask you if what have you learned since then and if it has

helped enjoying more your practice other than just to it for the benefits. Thank you. Take care. Congratulations. Great question. We're so similar. I mean, you're absolutely right. So there's this point in my second book where, which is called Meditation for Figuity Skeptics, and it's this road trip I did across the country with this amazing meditation teacher, Jeff Warren, and the goal of the trip was to help people who want to meditate but aren't meditating, get over the hump and actually do it. And during the 11 days and 18 states in this tin can, as we traveled across America, the silly orange bus that we rented, Jeff noticed something about my practice, which is that

it had to kind of eat your vegetables, grit your teeth quality to it. I was doing it, as the caller said, because I know it's good for me, but I wasn't really enjoying it. And that was a humbling and, uh, there's a quite a humbling thing to have pointed out. I think he was absolutely right about that. So this issue of enjoying meditation is a tricky one, though, because it's not, if you, if you demand of yourself that you enjoy it, it's likely, anytime you go into meditation, planning or striving to feel a certain way, it almost guarantees that you won't feel that way.

It's like a classic, classical hindrance, right? So if you demand of yourself, do you feel relaxed or calm? It's, because the goal of meditation really is to feel whatever you're feeling clearly so that your feelings generally don't own you. That's what we're training. That's one of the many skills that we're training in meditation.

But it is possible, as Jeff pointed out, to just notice that there are sensations about meditation that are, I think he says uses the term just like a hair north of neutral, you know, just like just into pleasant territory. Just the fact that you're feeling your breath coming in and going out can have some pleasant qualities to it. You don't need to force it, but you can tune into it. That doesn't mean that you're never gonna have unpleasant

situations in your meditation where I just, in fact, right before I recorded this podcast introduction, I did some meditation in my office at here at ABC News, and I noticed I was just kind of rushing, and rushing, rushing, and thinking about this article that I just read, and so that was a little bit unpleasant, and the point isn't just to make anything that's unpleasant, to force it to be pleasant.

It's just to be open to the fact there are moments when it is pleasant just to be kind of take yourself out of the traffic of daily life and to sit quietly for a few minutes. And so, that actually really, just having that pointed out to me really changed things. And I'll just add one other thing that Jeff pointed out. I know I'm giving a long answer here, but there's a lot to say on this. Jeff pointed out that that I think he said, in my case, a lot of my struggle is that I was getting really angry at myself for getting distracted in meditation because I, of course, I tell everybody all the time, you know, getting distracted and starting again,

is meditation. If you sit and meditate and notice you're getting distracted and then consistently just return your attention to your breath or whatever it is you've chosen as your object of concentration, that is meditation. You're not doing it wrong, you're doing it right.

Of course, I'm a huge hypocrite, I tell people that all the time, but in my own practice that I was, and to a certain extent, still continue to beat myself up a lot for getting distracted. And Jeff helped me do this, what struck me at first is a really goofy thing, of kind of naming the various,

if you look closely, there are probably five or six inner programs, inner voices that distract you the most. You know, for me, it's like I have a planner, I have anger, I have somebody who's thinking about work, I have somebody who's kind of, what are my other little inner voices. Somebody who's rushing, somebody who wants stuff. And so if you, over time, you can kind of like give these goofy little names to your inner neurotic programs and greet them with a nice little salutation that Jeff recommends, which is welcome to the party, which over time just infused a lot of sunlight into my practice. It turned it from being this kind of grim baton death march into something a little bit more cheerful where okay yeah getting interrupted is

inevitable and seeing that you've got these little sort of inner voices we've got the in this is not schizophrenia I'm talking about. We have these little modes that we go into, you know, sometimes planning for the future, sometimes thinking about our career, sometimes anger at whatever it is might be provoking some sort of inner fury. And just to be like, oh, hey, I know you. What's going on? Welcome to the party. Then back to the breath. Instead of when you see that you've become distracted, immediately reverting to self-legilation. So anyway, those two tactics, one just being open to

the fact that there may be something pleasant about this act of meditation and two sort of identifying naming and greeting with welcome to the party, whatever, whatever inner voice has popped up. That really helped me enjoy my meditation practice a lot more. So thank you for pointing that out. Here's call number two. Hey, Van, this is Cindy from Cleveland with a question. I recall hearing you on either your podcast or somewhere where you mentioned that at the

end of every meditation you had this little saying that you either say out loud or to yourself. And I believe it just to that was you're opening up your heart to the world. And I remember the words really nice and I think you mentioned you thought it was a little corny but you'd like to do it. And I would love to know what those words are because I've been trying to do that as a part of my practice, that the end of my meditation just sort of opening my heart to the world. And if you could repeat those words that you used to us, I would just love to hear them. Thanks Dan and just keep up all the great work.

Love your podcast. Bye. Thank you. And let's just acknowledge where we're firmly into cheesy therapy territory here. But and I say this as an out anti-centimentalist, there's science that suggests this kind of training works in that it makes happier, healthier people and also that it may, may, make nicer people too. So, and by the way, being nice,

renowns to your benefit, so it can create a virtuous cycle. Okay, so to answer your actual question, so there's a thing that I, there's a sort of a classical Buddhist phrase that I do say to myself at the beginning of every meditation, which is may all beings everywhere

be free from suffering, which is super aspirational and probably impossible. But I like it because it kind of pulls me out of my selfish concerns. And I just find that it creates better inner weather for whatever meditation experiences are about to ensue. And then at the end, this also comes from, this is a classical move has been done in meditation for circles for a long time, but it was first recommended to me

by the aforementioned Jeff Warren, meditation teacher and co-author of meditation for Fidgety Skeptics, which is, it's called a dedication of merit. And again, these are classical Buddhist terms. You can call it whatever you want, but I'm just using the, the, the terms, the term of art, the terms of art, um, dedication of merit, which is that you basically say to yourself, you know, any,

anything positive that may have been generated in these two minutes of sitting in these three minutes of sitting or in these three minutes of sitting, or however long you've been sitting, I give it away to everybody. You or you might be, say, to all beings, which again is a little cheesy, but it is just kind of the way. We Buddhist talk.

You can, you are free to language it however you want to make it palatable. And yeah, so I find I struggle a little bit with that one because part of me, this office part of me, which is frankly most of me, wants to keep whatever benefits of a crew as a consequence of doing the work I've just done. But actually, I do find that it's a useful exercise to try to generate the wish to just give away whatever the benefits are. So there you go. I didn't issue this time my usual caveat, which is, I'm not a meditation teacher,

or a mental health expert. I just answer these questions to the best of my ability, but there it is. That is the caveat. Always worth saying. Nobody makes me say that, but I just kind of feel like it's worth saying. All right, enough of me. Let's get it over to Sally Kohn, who is liberal political commentator. She's a community organizer. You may have seen her in her years when she was a regular contributor at the Fox News Channel, which was kind of an interesting assignment, and she's going to talk about what that was like. She's also a meditator by her own description kind of off and on and she's written a book called The Opposite of Hate which is as the title might suggest a look at how we are talking to each other and feeling about each other in America these days in ways that maybe we can kind of shave

the edges off of our toxic tribalism and political polarization. She's an interesting person to be making these arguments. Worth noting that if you followed her story of late, there's been some controversy over this book about an alleged misquoting of another activist and podcast host, we'll get into that toward the end of the interview, but she has a lot of interesting things to say and a very interesting personal story. So here she is, Sally Cohn. Thank you for coming on.

Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Have we not actually met before? Have we? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if we have, I'm a jerk. Well, it could be me, I don't remember either,

but I'm just assuming it's some thing with past or derfs. Or like just because we're both part of the media elite. Yes. Yeah, when we were getting our media elite badges and secret walkie-talkies. In the smoke-filled bedroom. Yes. Yeah, there.

It was so smoky, I didn't recognize it. That was it. Well, nice to see you again. Let me start where I always, my pleasure. Let me start where I always start, which is meditation. How did you, how, why did you get interested in it? We could literally spend the entire time just talking about my experience with meditation retreats. I have done one and a half meditation retreats.

Oh, okay. There's a story here. Yeah. So, you know, the timing here is, is the first one must have been around 2008 or 2009. No, it must have been 2009. And I went to Insight Meditation Society. Central Massachusetts. Right. And I'll be darned if I remember exactly why I thought this was. You know, I had a clouded head. I thought it would be a good idea to, you know, I've always been a high-strung person with

a lot going on in my mind. I'd been introduced to meditation by a friend. I did that thing that I think people do where you get just, you just think, oh, this is it, I found it and you grab onto it so tightly and then you dive in way too deep. So I did like one meditation class in an afternoon and that night signed up for a week long silent meditation retreat.

Wow. I know. And. So by the time you actually arrived at Insight Meditation Society, you had been meditating for how long? I'm gonna go with like a handful of weeks. I mean, you know, you have to sign up for the class

and then it's, you know, you have to wait a little while. So, but I'd, you know, I'd done what like all, you know, good bougie liberals do. I bought a cushion. I've been sensed. I've been, I've probably had some incense. I do not like patchouli. I think I bought some, I'd never really been into the,

it wasn't even called, I thought leisure wear then, but I had to, yes, I'm sure I had a book, whatever. I was kidded up. So I went to the silent meditation retreat, was a women's retreat at InSight Meditation Society. And it was one of the hardest and most rewarding things I've ever done.

Hands down. So you made it through that one. I made it through that one. That's not the half one. And it's not the half one. I made it through that one. I mean, I remember so many moments from it and just the idea of learning to slow down, to be present in your own experience with others and in the world around you.

I remember noticing how I would have all these opinions and impressions about things, even in the silence, how my mind was trying to make noise in silence. And then, but especially what I remember is one of the teachers saying during one of the Dharma talks, talking about learning to make friends with her mind. She talked about how her mind had for so long in her life been her enemy. And that she could cultivate a relationship with her mind through meditation and presence and loving kindness and that she could, that her mind could be her friend. And that, um, I had to have been one of them, you know,

ten most impactful moments in my life. What, say a little bit more about what was going on for you that, that your hair got lit on fire so easily after that first meditation class. You know, I was at a point professionally where I was going through some transitions. So I'd been a community organizer for 15 years. I loved my work. I'd traveled around the country. What does that mean? Barack Obama was a community organizer and it took a little guff for it.

What does that mean? Well, in my case, I worked for a bunch of national organizations that were trying to help people in their communities make change on a range of issues. So it was LGBTQ rights, criminal justice policy, immigration or form, health care policy. And I would travel around and go into local communities and work with state level groups that were trying to make a difference, help them support

them in what they were trying to do and help them strategize and take action and try to win. And I love my work, I'm still an organizer. In 2009, I ended up leaving organizing through sort of a twist of two fates. One was that I was at a conference. Someone saw me speaking and they said, afterwards it came up to me, and said, we have to get you on television. And I said, no, we do not. That's not me, that's not what to do.

I'm an organizer, we're behind the scenes people. We try to get the people who are actually affected by the issues, the leaders and communities, get them in the spotlight and on the stage. And I turned to walk away and she actually grabbed my arm. She said, no, you're going to do this. You're going to be good at it. Her name was Geraldine Leiborne. She was the first woman to run a network. She ran Nickelodeon and then she and Oprah started oxygen and she did not take no

for an answer. And so that began this sort of transition for me. Or at least initially I thought, okay, I'm going to be an organizer with some new skills and I'll bring them back to organizing and then I eventually realized I liked being the media, I liked having the opportunity to communicate and convey ideas and energize and engage people and it was a lot like organizing, it was just more people on a bigger stage. But also I was starting to feel disenchanted with the work that I'd done for so much of my career and the field that I've been a part of. This was in the early days of the Obama administration watching what, that so many of the movements

and the social movements and organizations that I've been a part of that pushed for that moment, including his election, then in the early days of the Obama administration kind of disengaged. This is partly the Obama administration's deliberate strategy to disengage and demobilize the left. But the left also kind of saying, all right, this is cool. He's got it. He's going to do the right thing. We don't need to push, we don't need to agitate anymore, we're not

going to make trouble, we're going to just kind of sit and wait for the right thing to happen. It didn't, and it was later in the second term when the left actually realized it had to push and create trouble and create the space for change to happen that it was able to. But I was at the time feeling very frustrated. And so in the space between those things, I was really trying to figure myself out and what my role was gonna be in the world.

And that's why you thought meditation would help you sort of cut through the noise a little bit. Yes. Well, had you gone to work for Fox at this point? No. So this, this was before that. Okay. It was.

And you said it was so powerful to hear somebody say that they, they'd been at war with their own mind. The meditation teacher said that on retreat. So in what, in what ways had you been at war with your own mind? Oh, damn. I mean, I'm a, you know, neurotic East Coast Jew with a, you know, penchant for being hard on myself. I mean, we have, we don't have enough time to talk about all the ways in which I've been at war with my own mind. But the idea that what it was was the idea that that wasn't inevitable. It didn't have to be that way that my mind didn't have to be

the sort of independent uncontrolled entity that would wreak whatever havoc it saw due course to do. And I would just have to then, I, as somehow an independent entity would have to respond and I would just have to then I as somehow an independent entity would have to respond and relate and you know to that reality. The idea that actually there was something that I could do to quiet my own mind to be more present to be more

um at peace that was a very especially for me at that time. I mean, what was I in 2009? I was, you know, in my early, no, in my late 20s. That was a really powerful revelation for me. Has your life been uninterrupted chain of mindfulness? Is that perfect? Has yours? Oh, yes.

It has. Yes yes I'm enlightened. Really? Oh wow, I'm so happy. You don't see all the barfing uniforms at unicorns around me? Oh that's what that was. You're a barfing unicorns, wow. Has someone already made that into like a,

if not an image at least a good gift, right? That should be a gift of your head. It should. Hello internet, dear internet, please make that. I went with the actively barfing unicorns. No, I left that retreat and went home and was for some time very dedicated to a meditation practice every day, 10, 15 minutes a day,

and to the idea. I became, it also helped instill in me an idea that helped, I don't say this, it organized my, it made sense of my understanding of the world and helped to start to frame my place in it, in terms of loving kindness practice, or meta-practice. That for me was the other... I'm not unrelated to the point about your mind being your friend, is then, can your mind and yourself also then be practice loving kindness to others into the world?

That helped frame what I had seen myself as doing, what I've been trying to do in the world through organizing work and activism work and social justice work, and it helped me to I think it in a way, maybe I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but it led to what I would end up becoming more and more cognizant of as time went on. Well, let me just define terms for folks. I think regular listeners or says podcasts will know, well, understand everything you just said, but if you're new, within the school of Buddhism that you, that the IMS, Insight Meditation Society,

comes out of, within that school, they basically teach the, principally, they teach these two complimentary practices. One is called mindfulness or insight where you sit, watch your breath, when you get distracted, start again, and that gives you sort of more clarity about your mental processes so that you're not so owned by them. And then the other is called meta-MeTTA, sometimes called loving

kindness meditation, where you systematically envision a series of beings starting usually classically with yourself, progress to a dear friend, to a the benefactor neutral people difficult people then all people all beings Mm-hmm, and you send them good vibes you silently repeat these phrases like maybe happy maybe healthy etc They're science to suggest both these are really healthy Yes Practices, but you you it sounds to me like you, the latter really spoke to you in some way. Well, I mean, I feel like you should be clarifying this because like the former, just mindfulness in general was to me a helpful was was a was a revelation, right? And even still when I catch my

Right? And even still when I catch my Myself thinking too fast or speaking too fast or moving too fast. I can Go back to catch my you know, I can catch myself go back to my breath Try to slow down try to observe try to be present and not just pushing and putting into the world but taking in and noticing So in that sense it it continues to be. I mean, I don't... I think, does anyone think they're a good meditator? I'm wary when people say they're... Yeah, I'm quite sure I'm a crappy meditator.

Well, I think the point actually is to be crappy. I honestly believe the point is to be crappy because... Well, then I'm really good. Then you are really good because seeing that you good. Because seeing that you're distracted, seeing that you're distracted, is the point of meditation. Yes. Because then you're seeing how crazy you are, and therefore the craziness has less ownership over you

and has less purchase of your actions. And so that is the point. That's right. And it's very hard for type I to them and East Coast neurotic Jew. And so It's very hard for type II, and East Coast neurotic Jew. And so it's very hard for people like us, or really, frankly, for anybody to wrap their head around that. But it is the thing to know.

Well, and, you know, to me, it ended up organizing just a whole universe of thought around cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, just this idea that rather than that when there are thoughts or ideas that are unhealthy as even the wrong word here, that you might consider to be negative or destructive, whether about yourself, whether about those around you, whether about just news in the world that you that is sad, unfortunate, painful, negative, that, you know, I think I'd been raised, I suppose many of us are raised consciously or unconsciously to push those thoughts away. And that never worked. It never worked. Well, it doesn't work. It's

whack and mold. Right. And so what I found so potent in a way was the idea that they become less powerful in a way by accepting them, that they don't, that it's the struggle to push them away, that you're, you're somehow feeding those ideas, whether they're about yourself or about others or about the world, and that in a way by accepting there's a letting go, that to me was, um, that, that, that remains. When I, when I really think about that concept, that's. That's transformative. Yeah, it's really powerful, and you just grab it well. Now it led to the problem I had at the second retreat.

Okay, well that's where I was. That's where I was going to go. And how long after the first retreat was the second one? About two years later. In that period, you were meditating with some... I mean, you know, semi sort of regularity of, you know, tape, let's call it tapering regularity, right? Gotcha.

You know, it sort of began with that intensity of anyone who's left something like that and feels, you know, wholly transformed. I think I probably also was going to be vegan and learn to float. I don't know. I think I probably also was gonna be vegan and learned to float. I don't know. I was very convinced I was on the path to enlightenment I went to other workshops.

And when I went back to do a second retreat, same in-site meditation retreat week long, I, it was, it was like nails on a chalkboard. And in particular, I was really struggling with the concept of acceptance. And not accepting, well, it was that, you know, what the teacher called my co-an. Am I set the right word? So a co-on is a Zen riddle. The rational mind cannot solve and in trying to solve and unsolvable riddle like what

was the face you had before you were born and what's the sound of one hand clapping. The rational mind gets so tied up in knots that it leads to some sort of release and some sort of enlightenment experience is how I understand that. Yes, I mean, that's, you said it better than I could have. No, but so this question of, I mean, like riddled through this with me, but this issue of how you accept something while also seeing the need for it to change, whether in yourself that in and of itself was hard enough for me.

For instance, I am going to accept that I have a neurotic mind, or I'm going to accept that I have a mind that is prone to seeing the negative and not the positive And yet at the same time I don't want to accept that I don't want to allow it to be I don't right and you try to accept yourself for who you are and also want yourself to be better, right? So it's like I'm an accept. I remember I would go I would skip out during the second retreat on some of the seated meditations and I would go for a walk and occasionally I would try to run and I would I would be tied up the second retreat on some of the seated meditations and I would go for a walk and occasionally I would try to run and I would I would be tied up in knots of like well, I want to accept

My physical fitness the way it is for who I am and not beat myself up that I can't run more than a mile And at the same time what the hell's wrong with you can't run more for a mile You should be working harder at this and like you you know, and that, that I couldn't reconcile. And of course, then for me, it then extrapolated to the world, right? Where you're supposed to, the teaching is to accept the pain, suffering, injustice, brutality, inequality, and also want it to change, want it to be better. And I somehow got tied up in knots. And in the teachings and in the one-on-one sessions,

the answer was just that what the teacher said to me was that's your coin, that's your riddle, that's your puzzle to puzzle with. And that was unacceptable to me. And I just tied myself up in perpetual knots for about three days. And then I called home and got my unacceptable to me and I just tied myself up in perpetual knots for about three days and then I called home and got my partner to call them and say that they were both sick. This is horrible that I'm admitting to this.

I know what's wrong with me that I- You're partnered to call and say that. Call and say that she and my daughter were sick so that I'd have to come home. What's wrong with me that I just couldn't, like I could have just, oh my gosh, Dan. I could have just gotten in the car and left, right? Like I had the keys.

It's classic, they call it, there's a, oh my God. Terminology for, You're just a little bit submitted to that. I actually see, look, I think it's hilarious. Thank you. It's what I think. It's Yogi Mind, there's an expression Yogi Mind,

which is that, so when you go on retreat, the name for the person who does a retreat is a Yogi, a meditator. Yes, yes, yes, a meditator. A meditator, yogi mind means you just get because all of the usual stimuli are taken away from you. You're on retreat. There's no talking, there's no television unless you're in your room cheating on your

phone. You know, the level of fixation and obsession can ramp way up. Yes. And you, that's, it sounds to me. I want to, I don't want to present myself as more of an expert than I am, but that sounds to me as like. Oh, no, he's diagnosed away. Okay.

Well, to my semi-trained mind, that seems to me like a classic case of Yogi Mah. Here's another example that Sharon Salisberg in solsberg that who founded the inside meditation site that she often tells the story of some body went to the front office one day in the middle of a retreat and said that the planes flying overhead were really bothering him could they call the airport and get them rerouted uh... so that's that that that to me sounds like what was going on with you, but but I actually just want to address your the the issue you were having.

Because to my mind, I don't know if I can answer this in a cogent way, but to my mind, it's not a co-on. Huh. I actually think it's like maybe a misunderstanding of acceptance. Okay. Maybe. So I'll try to see if I can say what I mean and maybe I'll succeed maybe I won't. And the reason why I'm very careful about not, but saying out loud some of my listeners criticized me for this gently, I often say I'm loud, you know, I'm not, I'm a meditation

teacher, I'm not an expert, I've written some books on it, but like, I really have only been doing this for like nine years and the people who are genuinely experts have been doing it way longer and much more intensively than I have. And so I just want to be careful. Coffee, I've noted. Okay, thank you. Yes. So, just because you accept the way things are right now does not mean that you need to accept them forever.

So it is true that we have massive inequality on many levels in the United States of America right now. To not accept it, that is the truth right now, would probably not be constructive because you'd be fighting against reality. But to then say that I want to change it is completely fine from a Buddhist standpoint. But you are wanting to change it from a standpoint of a little bit more wisdom because you're not

so caught up in anger over it. You just, you see things as they are. Hopefully you see it with some wisdom and compassion. That's a result of a whole soup of causes and conditions. And you decide that you want to do your best without making yourself crazy or then you need to be to change it. So for example, you have trouble running more than a mile. I don't think self-hatred is the answer. So accepting right now, I can trouble running more than a mile. I don't think self-hatred is the answer. So accepting right now, I can't run more than a mile.

This is my body as it is right now. I need to have self-compassion about that fact. But I also want to do the best that I possibly can to get in the best shape I can given my genes. All right. First of all, you said you're Jewish? Half Jewish. I'd like to question that if you do not believe self hatred is the answer. I just flagged for foul over here. Second point. Yeah, I mean, you're right. Maybe it is about

the definition of acceptance. And at the same time, and this is also where it rubs up against my sort of training as an organizer. And by the way, where I think there is a difference, I mean, obviously, I've, you know, I'm against hate, well, I'm against hate, but there's a difference to me between anger and hate, and I have always seen anger to be a constructive thing that in fact, always seen anger to be a constructive thing that in fact, if we accept the injustice and equality around us, if we accept institutional racism and sexual harassment, sexual assault and environmental degradation, and if we accept it, right? And you're right, it's about the definition, but even in the moment, it's not about recognizing the reality of it, but to me, the acceptance, at least the way it's often talked about in the sort of meditative, spiritual practice

of Buddhism, is a sort of at peace with. And I don't want to be at peace with. And so it's that combined with, honestly, you're right. The sort of, why are we having such an intimate and revealing conversation? Dan, this is my mom. Uh oh, hi mom. My mom always said that she thought she raised me right because I wasn't too self-confident and too complacent. And that that yearning sense that I needed to be better, right?

That that insecurity is in a way what makes change. And it's that same, I think the same thing about the world, even though I can like, I can kind of step back and see that that's maybe not the healthiest psyche, but you want to also look at the world and not be complacent. Or, and I guess that's how I am defining acceptance in that sense of like at peace with the radical injustices. Yeah, that's my understanding of the Buddhist concept of acceptance. And I actually agree with everything you said about my father had an expression which is the price of security is insecurity.

So I do think a certain amount of discontent with what's happening makes sense, but it's the certain amount where you get into the interesting area. So like for example, you talked about anger. I don't think anger is a no-no from a Buddhist standpoint. Like, we evolved for certain rapid responses, anger, fear, and things like that. That, I think, makes sense in acute situations, but are probably not in aiding strategy. So for example when we talk about social issues of social justice, I don't think the proposition is that you should be at peace with inequity. I think the proposition is that the best way, the best long-term solution for attacking these problems is not from a place of anger which

can wear down your effectiveness and resiliency, but instead compassion, which is the desire to help the people on the wrong end of the current system. So that's essentially where I would land. No, and that speaks in a way to why ultimately I came to find meta practice or loving kindness practice to be more out when I think about the world more constructive. I came to understand a sort of, you know, when I sit down and think I'm going to meditate. I still am engaged in a mindfulness practice. But when I am working through feelings of outward pain, frustration, anger, injustice, that meta, that idea of sending loving kindness to the injustice and pain in the world and

thinking about what does it mean to then act through that, to not just sit on a cushion or sit on a chair and practice loving kindness, but actually embody loving kindness. What would it look like as a political act? what does it mean to do it on social media what does it mean to do it on television what does that look like that that's where I see a lot of utility but you're not applying it to yourself she's Dan get off my back'm just listening to what you said. Well, no, no, I mean, you're supposed to start with yourself. So I do.

Yeah. I do. I do. But do you actually? Well, she's Dan. I mean, it's, you know, these are lifelong journeys. Gosh. Okay, I'll let you off the hook.

These are, I think the question's been answered. Listen, it's, you know, it's a lifelong journey. It is. I agree with that. I agree with that. Much more of our conversation right after this quick break. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, some days, parenting is unbearable.

I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brownleur, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong.

What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. I want to get to the book, but first, at what point in this, in this chronology, did you

go to Fox? Because I think that a lot of people are going to be interested in that. Well, so I left the meditation retreat and I just drove straight to Fox News I was like screw this loving kindness thing. I'm going to Fox Boy it happened before the second retreat so somewhere in the middle there You know as I when I was in my organizing world and I I left and or I was Thinking about a transition because of my frustrations with You know the sort of complacency of the left at that time.

And this sort of someone said, hey, let's get you on television. And I said, no, I don't want to do that. And then they said, no, you're going to do it. And I said, great, okay, fine. I'll be a better organizer. I'll be an organizer who has these skills. I can bring these back to my work. Eventually when I realized I enjoyed doing it, my community that I came from, the activist

group, field liked me doing it, was supportive. I did what baby pundits do. You know, I did Fox and MSNBC and CNN. And then one day, I was standing outside of Fox News. I saw this guy. He looked, I thought he looked like Roger Eels. I waived at him. He waived at me.

The next day he called me into his office. We had a meeting. He told me I had pretty eyes. Interesting. Five times in five minutes. I think I got off pretty easy. Let's be honest. And especially knowing what I know now,

none of which I knew when I was at Fox, I definitely got off easy. And that was it. I worked at Fox News for two and a half years as a lefty lesbian pundit, as one does. How was that for you? And was your meditation practice, did it exist in that period?

And if it did, was it useful? That's a multi-headed question, multiple questions, so sorry. It was a multi-part role, then. No, I think it's safe to, first of all, it was weird. That was, it was weird. I think it's safe to say my meditation practice, in fact, that was part of the period of tapering and in fact when I went back to that sort of half retreat it was in the tumult of that era so no it did not no I was not engage in active practice then and probably for a lot of reasons should have been obviously always should have been one of the things that happened is that, well, for, okay, so two things happened.

First of all, I started getting hate mail. I'd never gotten hate mail in my life. Never had the experience of strangers finding my email address. I was, you know, Twitter was relatively new. I never had that experience. People just random people who I didn't know. Finding me and writing the meanest things I'd ever been called in my life. That was part one of the experience and part two was, you know, I went to go work at Fox,

where all these people, I had these ideas of them as, you know, I thought they hated, they had hateful ideas, right? But I thought the people on air behind the scenes, even the viewers, not just that they had these hateful views, but they were be 100% in every way, shape and form hateful. They would just be personally nasty to me directly about my views, about me as a person, just that was what I expected. And so when I went there and got to know people, worked with people, I first realized, oh, they're not completely 100% hateful. Yes, they still say and do a lot of things

I find hateful still do. But I was, maybe I shouldn't have been when I was surprised that they would be nice to me personally. They would care about to me personally. They would care about my family. They would care about my career. We've sometimes found things we agreed on. And then I also realized,

oh wait a second, I hate them. Like I came into this setting thinking, here I am against hate. My whole career, I've been working against these values. And here I am hating them. I have all these stereotypes and generalizations and have imagined them to be the very worst possible thing. Those two things together, getting hate mail and then starting to actually wrestle with and my own hate, led me to one understand hate more broadly as a phenomenon why we do it and how we stop it.

So that brings us to the new book, the opposite of hate. So tell me what the thesis is and what you learned. Well, you know, the idea for me was to look at why do we do this, right? And not look, I draw a pretty broad definition of hate in the book. So it's not just in civility online or bullying, but also terrorism, neo-Nazis, genocide. They're not the same, obviously. But when we look at the root, right, the kids who are getting bullied in school are often the same kids, more likely to be bullied in school and more likely to get hate online, are queer folks, folks of color, poor folks, folks of disability is the same people who are more

likely to discriminate against in society. So they're not the same thing, but they have a similar root. In the history in the past and the habits in the present of deme're not the same thing, but they have a similar root. In the history in the past and the habits in the present of demeaning and dehumanizing, certain people, especially certain groups of people, because of their identity or their ideas. And the same token, explicit hate and implicit hate aren't the same thing, but they are also connected. So, aren't the same thing, but they are also connected. So to an example, what struck me was that, look, there's obviously when somebody marches down the street carrying a teaky torch, chanting about how we should kill

all gay people. We're gonna agree that's hate. That is overt obvious hate. What about when they march down the street, when they walked down the street, they're not carrying the teaky torch, and they're not chanting, we should kill gay people, but they just think it. Is that also hate? I think it is. And what if they think gay people are inferior, but they don't, not only do they not say it, they aren't even aware they think it, but it plays out in their interactions in the way they run their businesses and the people they vote for, etc. is that also hate?

See, I think it's all hate, it's all that habit we have based on our history of demeaning and dehumanizing certain people, especially certain groups people, because of their identity and their ideas. And the fact is, what I came to understand is the fact that we all do it. We don't all do it the same degree, we don't all do it just as bad, but we all do it. And we have a tendency to always point fingers and blame the other people and shake our fingers at them and be angry at them and attack them. And we don't take any responsibility for our own piece of the puzzle. And so what I wanted to do with this book was surface my own history, show what I hope is a constructive way for us all to take ownership, whether it's talking about how I was

a bully as a kid, talking about my own unconscious bias, and that we can all take responsibility for our piece of this, was we need to fix hate in all of us and in the institutions and policies and politics and culture that we're all a part of. I want to talk about the fixes in a second, but what did you learn about yourself in the process? You know, it has made me more compassionate. I mean, that learning about...

Except for not to talk to yourself, apparently. has made me more compassionate. I mean, that learning about... Except for not telling yourself apparently. You're in a lot, Dan here. Or me. No, I guess it's made me more compassionate to where myself and be a kid again, but it's a different thing, yeah. But listen, there's like a bajillion other people out there.

Let's be more compassionate toward them first. I, you know, there's like this one light. You know there's this one light in your studio that is just like hitting me, like we're in an interrogation. And I'm just like, okay. I think you're projecting. Cause there's no light sitting. Oh, you're right actually.

Yeah, that light is totally hitting me. That one, I see. It wasn't. Watch. He's gonna fix it. All right, there we go. Oh, so much better. Okay, now I feel literally and figuratively less under the spotlight.

I'm a short man, but I was able to reach the feeling. Thanks Dan Harris. But just from a classical Buddhist standpoint, actually, the reason why in loving kindness practice you start with yourself is, and this is a cliche, as they say in the airline safety instructions, you got to put your own mask on first before assisting others. So actually, the whole idea of starting with the billions of other people is bass chords. Thank you.

Yeah, and this is the sense in which I feel like we look, we do tend to have this, they started at philosophy of hate, right? And what I learned was, one of the things I learned is that most people don't believe themselves to be hateful. Most people don't wake up in the morning thinking they're hateful. In fact, there's both from people I talk to and research, you can look at even overt, extreme hate groups that we would just say, well, those are obviously hateful. You know, neo-Nazi's terrorists, right wing hate organizations, that the members of those groups don't even see themselves as hateful.

I talk to a by and large. I talk to a terrorist negotiator for the army who worked in Afghanistan. So you said most people see their motivations, believe their motivations to be good. And in fact, people when they join hate organizations, it's not the hate, the ideology that draws them in. It's actually they're searching for belonging. This is true in terrorist recruitment, this is true in gang recruitment. People are searching for belonging.

And the term the researchers uses is that they slide into the ideology. They deepen their bonds with the group through deepening their attachment to hate. People actually then bonding through hate. But that we don't see ourselves that way. So when I called up my trolls, I mean, these people who've written things that I just can't say on the radio, like just horrible things about me,

I can't even imagine. I figured it was obvious when I asked them, I didn't even ask them, do you hate me? I figured they did, so I asked, why do you hate me? It's the first question, why do you hate me? And they said, to a T, oh, I don't hate you. But they saw me as hateful. They thought, my behavior is hateful. Things I'd said on air, ways I'd behaved, things I'd tweeted, etc. Now, I didn't think I was right, but it was this sort of,

you started it philosophy of hate. That actually stems to psychological principles where we tend to hold others accountable and see their bad behavior not just as bad acts, but actually inherent to who they are. Right? So I do something bad. I make a mistake. You do something bad. You're a bad person.

Well, it's true. Yes, I mean, I think it's true. Like if you're a Trump supporter right now, you see missteps as mistakes. If you're a Trump detractor, you see it as a reflection of his irredeemable character, same with Clinton. Correct. It was just different people reaching different conclusions at that time. So, and I'm at Bill Clinton during the impeachment.

But, too, also true during the campaign. Yes, of course. Yes, of course. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting phenomenon. Well, and we do it, again, first of all, what it led me to do was want to take some ownership for myself and my side, right? So, and this comes from my days at Fox News

and just learning how to have conversations with people who you disagree with where, you know, we know this from cognitive neuroscience. The minute you have an argument, the rational thinking parts of the brain shut down and the fight or flight parts turn on and we pick a side and we just keep having an argument. And when you attack people and try to point out what they've done wrong as a starting point, you're not having a conversation. You're picking a fight. And so for me, being able to start with what I've done wrong is a very helpful, instructive way into a conversation that I'm coming to folks and saying, look, I'm not talking about your unconscious racial bias. I'm talking about my unconscious

racial bias and turns out that's something we all share. And here's the evidence and here's the whatever, but I'm not absolving myself. I'm not on high. I'm not wagging my finger at you saying, oh, you're clinging to your guns and religion or you're a basket of deplorables, right? I'm sort of putting myself as the first offering on the table of imperfection that applies to all of us. So for me, that became a, I learned a lot about my own imperfections and I learned a lot about how we all see ourselves in the best possible light.

And what would it mean if we saw others in the best possible light? Brian Stevenson, who wrote the book, Just Mercy, and was one of my professors in law school, he says, no one is the worst thing they've ever done. And through the process of writing this book, I spent a lot of time thinking about what would it mean to not just say that, not just believe it, but do it? What would it look like to believe that people and act as though people are not the worst thing they've ever done, or the worst thing they've even said, or even the worst thing they've ever thought, to believe people are redeemable and to give people, to give people the opportunity

to be their best selves. Because right now I think we tend to condemn the people who are not on our side to be the worst version of themselves that we see them to be. So what is the fix here? I i mean i had a guest on recently as a client who's uh... we're talking about political polarization i was asking about fixes and he was saying he didn't really think there were any uh... what do you think he doesn't have i didn't let i didn't hear him say that but that's sad

that's unfortunate i got i would be and i'm not. Do you think it can be fixed? I haven't looked closely enough. Where he and I ended up coming down was he views the world as a structuralist, in other words, so he looks at the whole system. And in terms of tribalization, polarization, he doesn't see, at least right now. I think he's off on a leave to write this book about it. Maybe he'll see something as he writes the book, but he didn't see any big structuralist fix.

But he did see my point when I said there are things individuals can do to be better players within the systems, like loving kindness, meditation, trying to get clear on your own biases, practicing generosity, gratitude. There are all sorts of things you can do as an individual. He wasn't sure there were big systemic fixes. Well, that's interesting. I hope I hope as we're quoting you correctly. Well, if I am not, I apologize.

Yeah, ping us. See, I think both it has to be both. I think both, it has to be both. And I look, I am a realist, but a professional optimist. So I wouldn't be engaged in the project of trying to make our society in the world a better place. I didn't think it was possible. And I believe it's possible, because in spite of the immense history of hate in our country

and in our world, let's be clear, we are a country that in innumerable ways was founded on hate, acts of hate, in spite of our aspirations to the contrary, which have always been there, but have never been even close to imperfectly realized, that we have nonetheless aspired to be better tomorrow than we were in the past. And have at moments imperfectly, insufficiently, but still achieved that progress. And that's why I'm a progressive because I believe in progress because I believe that people in policies and institutions and systems can change. And it's true, we do not address hate.

We do not address deep inequalities and injustices in our country and in the world. We don't address them without institutional change, right? We have to look at the ways in which, for instance, our schools today have always been segregated and today are more segregated than they were two decades ago. Our neighborhoods, our workplaces, our prisons, those are not the result of natural outcomes. Those are the result of policy and inequality, ossified into culture and systems and institutions. And so we need to change that. And at the same time, we also know that the way we make change is when individuals demand it. When individuals in control of, in positions of power in institutions and businesses and systems,

and those of us who pull the levers in elections and choose the media we consume, etc., etc., that's also how those big things change is when we the people change them. So, talk specifics. What do you think can be done on an individual level and or structural level to address all of the issues you've been describing here about hatred and bed in our society? So, part of key piece is taking some, I think, is taking some responsibility for your piece where you start. So, yes, in the book I get into how we actually need to have, so I, by the way, the opposite of hate in the book,

is not love. You do not have to love in my book. You do not have to love people to stop hating them. You're welcome. You know that's a like them, that's okay. You just have to understand how in spite of our differences and our disagreements, by the way, which I think are incredibly important to who we are,

as people and as a country and as a world, right? We shouldn't be papering over them or pretending they don't exist or holding hands in the middle and singing come by I'm not in favor of that. We should have our differences and disagreements. We should even celebrate them and and we can Express what we believe and we can stand up for what we believe and without stomping on other people. Isn't that an answer to the co-on from your retreat? I mean, in a way it is, right?

But it didn't feel like it was the answer at the time. That's why I think it's search. That's why the search to me worked, right? I mean, I think that's why I connect the two in sort of the long arc of my own life. So yes, I think we need, so in my, in my articulation, we need connection policies, right? Just like failure or sort of, you know, the hateful policies got us to this place in terms of, you know, housing discrimination, education discrimination, more deeply institutions of slavery and inequity and voting, et cetera. We need to fix policies and institutions and culture and media and, and at the individual

level, we need to do more to connect. So for instance, we know that when kids go to racially integrated elementary schools in kindergarten, they develop less unconscious racial bias to begin with. We know that. They get it later, but they initially develop us. We know that when teenagers and college students participate in racially integrated after school programs and in their mural activities, very lower their unconscious racial bias. And yet, we are in so many ways more divided than ever. We are in a situation where most strong Hillary

supporters don't know any strong Trump supporters and most strong Trump supporters don't know any strong Hillary supporters. 53% of Americans say they don't know anyone who's Muslim. Three quarters of white Americans say they don't have any non-white friends. And, you know, Brunei Brown says, it is hard to hate up close. It's not the answer to everything. It doesn't fix the history. It doesn't fix the habits. It doesn't fix the structures of hate. But it gets us closer individually to a solution, especially when we as individuals stop

pointing the finger at them and their hate and take responsibility for our own piece of the problem. I think it's all right, all true. But is anybody doing anything about this? When I look around, is anybody legislating against this if that's even possible and is anybody in the culture making a move to build these bridges? Yeah, I think so. I mean, one of the, in addition to, in the book, talking to exonionazis and former terrorists

and people who participated in genocide who had remarkably and against all odds left entire lives of hate behind, and showing how this is possible at every level imaginable. There are institutional and community level solutions that are happening. So for instance, in Omaha, Nebraska, where the proliferation of multiple school districts in Omaha, Nebraska popped up after Brown versus Board of Education when our public schools were being integrated. There was white flight out of the multiracial inner city to little pockets of new districts to the point where they actually, in some cases, created what are basically all white public school districts that exist as little autonomous fiefdoms separate from the more that was once diverse city school district, and to fight

off the quote unquote threat of integration. And what the school district did, what the Omaha school district did, was through some legal maneuvers that made other school districts come to the table. They created a larger unified public school district that shares resources. Because of course, this isn't, this is about race and about classes. When you have public school, public school funding that's apportioned by property taxes, then poor communities are going to have poor schools. Rich communities are going to have good schools. That, that's not fair, right? Because that then means that opportunity for kids is based on the wealth of the parents They have in the communities they live in and that continues to perpetuate inequality

So the school districts came together created a unified school district share resources and also allow kids to go to schools in the other communities in effect reintegrating those schools in Nashville, a group of evangelical ministers were frustrated because they were hearing Christian ministers were frustrated they were hearing their congregants say some virulently anti-Islam thanks. And they wanted to respond. They knew instinctively it didn't seem right, felt hateful, but they didn't know what to

do. So they went to the local Muslim community organization, Nashville, and said, help us, help us understand. So we can respond. And so there was a retreat, imams and Muslim faith leaders, and these evangelical Christian community leaders and other Christian leaders went together on a retreat, learned about each other's faiths, traditions, talked about each other's text, also just hung out, broke bread together, talked about movies, got to just know each other. And now there's a program where the congregants of the different faith institutions will now

the members from the evangelical churches are going to mosque with members of the mosque, and then they break bread together and the members of the mosque are going and experiencing worship services in the Christian congregations and then breaking bread together. And that again, that's a piece, that's a piece, but it makes. That's the kind of thing that starts to make a difference. Ironically in the course of, and you were actually the one who told me about this, but in the course of your book being published, there has been some turbulence. There's an African-American podcaster come out and said that you misquoted her in the

book. Can you just tell us from your angle, from your side what happened here? Um, so, I mean, not to sew, who, uh, I mean, not to sew, who hosts, uh, call your girlfriend podcast, uh, felt as though, uh, it was her experience that a quote that I'd used in my book, she did not recall saying, uh, you know, I, listen, I've tried to clarify in facts of, oh boy, I mean, should I actually like hang on, I've got, I don't want to, I don't want to just summarize it. Let's, let's, let's, I mean, I don't, well, can I just say hang on a second here.

I can read the quote, I've got the quote here. She, I've tried to clarify the facts of how the quote was obtained, that it was on the record. She consented to be quoted. I took notes visibly and contemporaneously. I've since produced those notes. So I've tried to clarify the facts. What's also clear, first of all, is that I quoted someone in a way that she did not, clearly it's in retrospect is now clear did not

want to be quoted. I wish I had gone back and reconfirmed that she was okay with me using the quote in the book. I also am now clear that as a white woman I did not see how her quote potentially played into racial stereotypes and exposed her to vulnerability. Now, I'll be clear, this went on for some time privately. She raised these concerns to me privately, and I did what I could to make amends, including taking her name out of future editions of the book, and per her request apologizing publicly, because I did not want the quote that she is hurt by and doesn't want out there to be out there any further so I'm gonna continue to stand by that that I don't I don't want to amplify or air look I Amplified further quote that she obviously wishes was not my book

Okay, so we don't have to go talk about, therefore you, I think, I think you're basically saying you don't want to go say the quote because it would be a assault in the wound, perhaps, but it roughly was along the lines of she was talking about what it's like to be an African American woman in public debates where somebody says something offensive to her. Yes. Uh, and it was a pretty incendiary thing. Yes. She is quoted as saying, although she says she didn't say it.

Correct. But your attention is that not only did she say it, but that you told her you were taking notes at the time and that you were going to quote her. And but she says that's not true. So is that the rub? Correct. That's correct. And still I have and will continue to apologize both for my blind spots in not having seen the dynamics that that she was okay with me using it. Again, I listen, all I can do is continue to... That obviously wasn't my intent. My intent wasn't to do harm or to be insensitive, but intent isn't the same thing as impact. That was the impact I had. And all I can do is apologize and try to learn and do better in the future. Interesting headline in Mother Jones, which is a liberal magazine, website, whatever. How Sally Cohn's, the opposite of hate, became a referendum on white privilege.

Do you agree with that? Did a fair characterization well i don't think so damn but i mean look they i wrote a book in which if we can if we can step back from that uh... i wrote a book in which i have tried to be

fairly transparent about the many things I have done and thought and felt that were wrong, hurtful, problematic. You know, if I were going to write it again, I'd put this in it. I'd put this in it. As an example. That I am that, you know, what I hope, and this is certainly my hope with this book, is

that, and I would love if the way this conversation we're unfolding could model that, is that we can have, look, nobody likes to get, you know, called out, nobody likes to have to learn a lesson, and nobody really, you really don't likes to have to learn a lesson. And you really don't want to have to learn one in public. But sometimes that's the only way we get better and change and grow. Now, I'm a fan of not calling people out, but calling people in, creating opportunities

where people feel like they can learn, grow, and do better as opposed to being voted off the island. And that certainly is what I've tried to model learn, grow, and do better as opposed to being voted off the island. And that certainly is what I've tried to model in my writing and my work that we give people the opportunity to be their best selves. We recognize that when you're trying to do things that are hard, change, grow, find ways to overcome and overrule and override the injustices in the past that have been baked into our institutions, our culture, our societies, and our minds, that that's never going to be a straight line, it's never going to be a smooth path,

much that we might like it to be, and can we be generous and graceful with each other? Do you think there's a chance for rapprochement between you and Ms. So? I hope so. I hope so. Let's end on a more of a note. Okay. Yeah, go. How optimistic are you that the wounds that are so evident in our national psyche and discourse right now, can any reasonable period of time go some distance toward being healed improved. Oh, it depends on the day, Dan.

I guess we're not going to end that over. I think, no, no, I mean, no, no, I, well, I mean in all fairness, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. I think that we are so stepping back, so speaking broadly, I think we are in a time as a country on all sides where we are interested in attacking and condemning and Amping up the finger pointing in the blame who did it worse than first and

not in creating opportunities and paths for solutions and for positive ways forward. And that comes from a lot of pain, it comes from a lot of frustration, it comes from a lot of anguish. On all sides, it comes from a lot of people, certainly on the left, feeling very powerless in this moment that I think what's happening to our country is very, it feels hopeless to a lot of people who had thought, like myself, who had thought we were imperfectly but nonetheless, you know, bending toward justice. And to see this as, to still believe in our better angels, to still believe in the possibility

of change, to still believe that people can change, you know, I have to every day remind myself of the people I know, not just the institutions and the policies that in my lifetime have changed and in the history of our country have changed, but the people I know who've changed and that that's possible because it feels so entrenched and so ugly right now. So that's why both the stories in the book, to know people in this day and age when we are seeing more neo-nazis, more hate groups, to meet and know and connect with and hear the stories and share the stories of people who have left those lives of hate, who have turned away from that kind of extreme hate who have turned toward kindness and compassion. Is I hold on to that?

I hope we can all hold on to that. Yeah. Good. Good place to close. Thank you very much for coming in. Really appreciate it. Sorry about shining that lighting your eyes. No. Literally or metaphorically.

Only the literal part. I will send also loving kindness to our lighting director. Yeah, thank you again, appreciate it. Thanks Dan, thank you. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe, rate us. Also if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris.

Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohen, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, Prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with 1-3-plus in Apple podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey

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