Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 144: Spring Washam, 'What Was Creating All This Suffering?'

Episode Date: July 18, 2018

Spring Washam was on a meditation retreat when she felt herself falling apart, so much so that she picked up "the red phone," screamed out "HELP." That moment launched Washam onto a "whole other journey" to work through her past and find sources of her suffering, which she details in her book, "A Fierce Heart: Finding Strength, Wisdom, and Courage in Any Moment." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

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I'm Dan Harris. I return guest this week, one of my favorite humans, Spring Washam, who I make fun of in my first book, 10% happier relentlessly, but she then turns out to be the hero of the key chapter in that book. And she's back because if you've heard her first visit, great, you don't need to go back and listen if you haven't heard it. It's all good. But even if you did here and remember her first tour of duty on this podcast, there is

a whole side to her story that is really incredible and disturbing and inspiring. It's all in a new book that she's written and I was unaware of a lot of this biographical information until this interview. So you'll hear it all come porn out from spring, you know, it involves incarceration, it involves race, it involves lots of really thorny subjects, and at the heart of it all is somebody who has made it out and has really used this practice of meditation to train her own mind in some very difficult circumstances and is now this really impactful teacher, as I know firsthand, from having learned from her. Okay, so that's coming up first though.

Let's do your calls. And as always, the caveat, I'm not a mental health professional, not a meditation teacher. I'm just a reporter, and I'm also a meditator, and I do my best to answer these questions, which I've not heard in advance, to the best of my ability. Here's call number one. Hi, my name is Teresa.

I'm from Bear Delaware. I've been listening to your all your podcasts, and I read 10% happier. It was life altering, and I've been meditating for about two years now. Here's the question I have. When people talk about meditation, and there's been some negative press lately about it, whether it's all it's cracked up to be, and the research is flawed, and all this, I think about the fact that

on many occasions you've said there's no harm. And I was wondering if you know of any studies that say that meditation can be harmful. Because the way I look at it is that if it's not hurting me and it is helping me personally, why shouldn't I try it to have a better life? So I was just wondering, is there any research, or do you know of any research that states that meditation can be harmful in any way? Thanks so much, and thank you for all you do. Thank you, two years of meditation, that's really good.

So kudos to you for that, and a great question, and I noticed in my own mind when there are these kind of anti-meditation And a great question. And I noticed in my own mind when there are these kind of anti-meditation or meditation hit pieces that run, I can see my own kind of defensiveness come up or doubt and all this stuff. And that's an interesting process to watch.

The most recent one was a few weeks ago, there was a piece in the New York Times about the fact that meditation may make employees less motivated. And there was a great response to that piece written by Richie Davidson, previous guest on this podcast. And Arianna Huffington also, previous guest on this podcast, talking about putting it in a much greater perspective, and actually there are a lot of studies that show that meditation makes you much more effective in the workplace, and so they cast a lot of doubt about it. But it's an interesting thing to watch

that there is, people are ready for, we're at this stage in the hype cycle, where people are, you know, meditation has received a lot of hype. I've been part of the problem probably, even though I tried not to feed it by calling my whole thing 10% happier, in other words, not over-promising, but still, I'm sure I'm part of the problem,

but we're in this stage where meditation has gotten so much hype that when there are data points that suggest it may not all be all it's cracked up to be. People love jumping on it. And, you know, that's cool. I get it too. I'm a snarky, media type, so I understand how that goes. I'm plenty of snark and everything I do. So, you know, turn about as fair play.

Nonetheless, I think, you know, you've heard me say this before about the science, but I think it bears repeating. There is quite a large body of science, which is still in its early stages. But I think what we can safely say is it strongly suggests that meditation confers a long list of health benefits, like lowering your blood pressure, boosting your immune system and the neuroscience that shows that it rewires key parts of your brain. That is out there. And yes, some of the science out there is not very good. We have to just say that. The scientific process, once you take a look at it, I'm married to a scientist and a child of scientists. I mean, it's a messy process, and it's basically an argument had in public in these journals, and it can be, it has ups and downs and back and forth, but I think that the arc of history

to get a little grandiose is leading us toward the conclusion that meditation is good for you. There are all sorts of different kinds. It may not be good for everything. There was just as an example, I was listening back. I don't usually go back and listen to my own podcast, but I was as part of some research and I'm doing for an upcoming book. I was listening back to a recent podcast we did with Thubton Jindpa, who's the primary

English translator for the Dalai Lama and also an academic and former monk and really smart guy and has written a book about compassion and we did a live event together. He likes spring washroom, has been on the podcast twice and I was listening to the second podcast with him which we did live together at the Asia Society here in New York and I asked him at one point about another, another they're had at this point recently when we recorded that podcast been another rash of articles, meditation kind of hit pieces,

because there had been a study that showed that people, were seemed to show that people, when they learned how to meditate, it didn't actually make them nicer. I might not be saying that accurately, but it was something that's, I think the general gist of it. And his response was great.

He was so not defensive. His response was, well, that may be right. I don't know. But what we can say for sure, his, and this is him talking, is that meditate, you know, when it comes to being a better person, meditation isn't enough. It's really helpful. But you actually have to, actually have to do nice things in the world. I mean that is actually part of the training. You have to be kind actually in your life. So it's not enough to just sit and practice kindness as a meditation technique. You actually have to do it.

The point of meditation isn't to become, as Sharon Salzburg always says, a better meditator. The point is to become a better human. And I thought that was a really wise point to make and something to bear in mind when you when these these spates of negative news coverage happen vis-à-vis meditation that seem to occur occasionally like the weather. But to answer the question you actually asked me, oh, it honestly one thing before that, I've said this a million times, but it's just worth saying like the weather. But to answer the question, you actually asked me, oh, and I want to say one thing before that. I've said this a million times, but it's just worth saying again, because there are some people myself included who get sucked into these media spasms that happen once and well. The sign, I'm glad the science is happening as a meditation evangelist. It's an incredible tool,

but you have, you said it in your voice mail that you've been doing this for two years, it's showing benefits in your own mind. That's the thing that matters. It doesn't, you know, at the end of the day for people who are already meditating, who cares what the science says? Who cares? It's really, is it working for you? And so who knows whether your prefrontal cortex looks different

right now? That's not the measure. The measure is, are you less of a jerk to yourself and others? But answer your question. I do know of one, at least one study that shows detrimental effects of meditation. And the authors of that study were on this podcast. Go back and search for the episode, will it be Britain and Jared Lindahl, where now married, they wrote a study, their Brown University professors about something called the Dark Knight. Well, actually, that's not in the title of their study,

but essentially they were looking at something called the Dark Knight, which is a phrase used for a phase in meditation, which is a phrase used for a phase in meditation, which is a difficult phase that happens to meditators. And they speak with some real authority about this phase in meditation that some people hit where they really have psychological difficulties. Perhaps as a consequence of their meditation,

it's not fully known, but it would be wrong to say that there are no adverse effects possible of meditation. We have, in the scientific literature, documented cases of people who've run into problems while meditating. From what I can tell, it's pretty rare, like pretty rare, but it's not that it never happens and it also seems to happen, again, this is not always the case,

but it seems to happen to people who are doing intensive retreats, but again, it has happened to people on much lower doses. I don't think people are dropping like flies with meditation-related ailments, but it's, you know, I mean, maybe a rough comp would be getting hurt at the gym. You know, I mean, maybe a rough comp would be getting hurt at the gym.

You know, I think that's probably more common. I hear about that more often than I do have been here about people having problems while meditating. But, you know, every doctor is going to tell you you should be getting physical exercise of some sort, and we all know it's possible to get injured. And I think the same thing may be true, although in my feeling, and I don't have any data to back this up, is that injuries, quote-unquote,

happen at a much lower level with meditation. Long answer, you got me fired up. Here's call number two. Hi, this is Melissa from West Virginia. And I have a question about whether meditation could help improve my focus day to day. My job is bed boring, but it requires concentration and reasoning skills. Basically, I'm reading through medical records, analyzing them, writing about them, but some days it's a struggle, most days. It's a struggle to focus. But the job provides good benefits and health insurance, and I want to

keep it from my family. So, can meditation help? Thank you. Bye-bye. That's a great question. I got so worked up in the last answer that I started my body temperature rose. I had to take my sweatshirt off. Okay, but we're talking about you now. Can it help with focus? So I have a bunch of things to say about this. There is a significant amount of evidence that suggests that meditation can rewire the part of the brain that has to do with attention regulation.

So yes, the short answer is yes, it seems to help with focus. About a big part of focusing, and let me just say my own personal experience, I do believe that it has helped my focus, but it's not miraculous. I still get distracted by Twitter or email, or my son son or whatever.

And I think there are a bunch of other ancillary systems I could put into place. Habits I could form that would really help with my focus and productivity. And at some point I'm going to go research those. So I think meditation is one thing that can help with focus, but I wouldn't look at it as some miracle cure, and I would look at it as part of a suite of things that you could do to stay locked in on whatever you're trying to do. But a big part in my experience of focus is interest. You know, like in one of the pieces of advice you'll often hear from meditation teachers

is to bring interest and curiosity and investigation to whatever it is that's coming up in your mind. And this is just an incredible factor, a mental factor that can be harnessed to your benefit. And I hear a problem for you in that you called your work dead boring. I get it that you may have no other option. I completely respect that, and so I'm not trying to make trouble here. But I wish for you, if I could give you any advice, I would investigate if I were you, the possibility of safely switching careers without jeopardizing the benefits and the salary that you need to take care of your family. Obviously that has to be um job number one, but it's hard to be, you know, I'm speaking from experience here that it's hard to be the best you can be with your family if you're, you know,

spending a significant percentage of your waking hours. Unhappy. spending a significant percentage of your waking hours unhappy. Again, I'm not trying to make trouble. I don't know all the particulars of your situation and I am very sensitive to the economic imperatives here. So you got to do what you got to do and good on you for doing it. You're doing the right thing, but if you could, if there was a possibility of finding ways to you're doing the right thing, but if you could, if there was a possibility of finding ways to engage your mind in ways that would be more fulfilling, I would love to see that happen for you. But anyway, the short answer to your question is meditation has been shown to help with focus. So I would look at that and also look at some other things from people who have broader set of knowledge than I do. There's a good book called Focus by Danny Goldman, Daniel Goldman,

who's been on this podcast a couple of times. So you might take a look at that. It's not really a how-to book, but it talks about you can glean some pretty actionable advice from that. Okay, thank you. Let's get to spring. Spring is a meditation teacher based in the Bay area, although I hear she's moving to another part of California. I don't know if she wants me to say where that is. And she wrote a book called A Fear's Heart, Finding Strength, Courage, and Wisdom in any moment. She knows that I'm the kind of person who's gonna make fun of her for using the word heart in her book title. And she has a long history of me making

fun of her because I did it with a lot of relish in 10% happier in the chapter about where I went off on a silent meditation retreat. And she I found her really, really annoying, but then I realized that I was the one who was a jerk and she swooped in and saved me when I was having a breakthrough in my own meditation practice. And subsequently, we've become friends. She's just a phenomenal person. She was on, as I mentioned, the podcast about a year ago, or maybe even more. And she has this incredible story of her own personal biography. And we, as I learned when I started to look at her new book, her first book, we barely scratched the surface of what this person has lived through. And that she has not only survived, but thrived and turned around her life and used her

experiences to help so many people in so many different situations is a real achievement. So welcome back to Spring Washroom. Here she is. Now we're going to talk about parts of your background that actually weren't covered in that first podcast. And in particular, I will say that at reading the first parts of this book, I actually didn't know how difficult your childhood was. I mean, you mentioned it a little bit, but I really didn't know in quite as much detail as you share in this book. So can you mentioned it a little bit, but I really didn't know in quite as much detail as you share in this book. So can you tell me a little bit about the relationship between your parents? Yeah, that one's a little interesting. I mean, I'm in contact with them. I am in contact with them,

but they, you know, as I... Are they in contact with one another? No, no, no, my mother is remarried and my father lives in Delaware now actually. Yeah, you know, it's like they just didn't have any capacity to be parents, like many parents. How do they meet? I tell that story on there. They met on their friend's couch. Yeah, the friend they met on it, they both were homeless. He had just got out of prison and she had just left another relationship.

Your dad had just gotten out of prison. Yeah, but it was a one year prison charge for Czech forgery. It was like really, you know, he's not a violent person. He's just really delusional, but not violent. Delusional in what way? Thanks to the rules don't apply to him.

Yeah, just thoughts of grandiosity that could never be like, you know, just like, I'm gonna make it in million dollars, but he has no education, no capacity, no, no, you know what I mean? Just like dream or that, you know, but has all these kids. I'm one of 10 children, he has. Whoa. I know. He's been married a bunch. Do you have relationships with the other 10 kids? Or is it?

Yeah, well, my sister's one of my best friends is for my mother. And then my three, I'm very close to three of my brothers who were all, there's three that are very, there's all the same age and they're very close and we've all had a close bond. My other brothers, ones in prison, ones like was an attic for, yeah, I know that's why I call the first chapter, Blooming in the mud, Dan.

It's like the explain, explain Blooming in the mud because that's a specific reference. Yeah, the Lotus. Yeah, and then how it archetype, believe, you know, the Lotus flower. The Lotus flower literally can bloom for a thousand years in the muddiest of waters. One flower, I've been studying in the lotus and national fire of India. Yeah.

So you've had, there've been plenty of mud. Yeah, no mud, no lotus though. You know, Dan, I mean, some people, and I use that knowledge a lot of, you know, some people swoop in from the top of their spiritual life. They kind of come in with Lulu Lemon and they, they work it out, but it's all kind of like, it's some muddy. It's painful, but not muddy.

Muddy is just like muck. And then there's a lot of people who come from the bottom. And I like to explain that and they have to fight their way through the sh**, you know, in a different way. It's muddy. It's not that the top, the ones that fly over the top is not hard. It is pain there. But it's not nearly as dirty as, you know, they don't need it, obviously. It's so funny. I haven't seen you in a minute and I forgot how you can talk about the heaviest of stuff in such a light way. How do you pull that up?

I don't know because it's both in me. It's both that I could cry in a second hearing these stories that are thinking about something that happened to me or one of my brothers or life. And then there's a part of me that does see it as like part of the journey. It's like it's some kind of is empty on some level. Like I'm more than that. We all are. It is empty. Some people might not understand what you mean by that.

Right. It's it's still all a story at this stage. You know, it's like it it's like who I am. Like I'm more than the trauma and I teach us a lot in Oakland because people, I have huge classes there and people come and there's all this trauma and suffering. And I was just like a people and say, yes, all this is one level of reality, yes, abuse, the abandonment, the trails, the worst kind, you know, and we are more than that. You know, we are more, this is just one chapter. And that's really what the message of that book is about is try to get people to see.

It's just like one moment in time. This isn't the whole of it. We're so much more than that. And that's where I talk about the absolute. This is like a star. We're like one glimmer, one moment. And so I don't know, there is a lightness. People tell me that all the time, like, oh my god, woman, I'm crying,

woman laughing with you under treats or whatever. And you can go to these places, because I've been there until those places are important to go, but not essential to stay. Like we learn, and then, we use it, bud. When you say say the absolute what do you mean by that? Well yeah that's maybe that's something right where the absolute I guess I would mean ultimate reality or like you know that's a Buddhist term. That is the Buddhist term so I think it's fine to use. No no no no no no

we're okay with jargon here we we just just explain what it means. I guess it's like the level of quantum physics. Like, you know, if I was to look at this, you know, I would just, whatever. You're looking at a bottle of water now, or head problems, yes. Right, I would, if I look on the quantum level, there's nothing here but moving particles.

Right, it seems solid. It seems very solid. Just like our story is a paint. All of it seems like, oh my god. But if I look very closely at it, it's like, oh, right. It's just a constellation of memory and emotion. So to see the quantum level of the headphones that are in your hands, you need a microscope to see it with your stories. You need meditation, which is a microscope. Right, you need exactly,

you need to be able to hone that part of the mind that can look deeper than just the surface level can sort of penetrate into what it is. Yeah. Did people underestimate you because you come off as kind of like I did, right? The first time I wrote about it in my book, that the first time you got up there

and were teaching loving kindness, I was like, who is this? And did you find that people because you have a light and breezy sort of way, do you think people underestimate you? Yeah, I think they do. Totally because you know Jack Cornfield, he used to drag me around a lot with him

when I was very young. And so people would be like, Jack Cornfield, he used to drag me around a lot with him when I was very young, as if people would be like, Jack Cornfield, the eminent Buddhist meditation teacher. And he would be like, you're teaching next to him and I feel like, where are these people? I'm so young, they're not going to get, and he's like, no, no, come on, come on. Bring that, speak from your heart, he would just tell me. And so I take it a lot of people interested in meeting me. And I think that book clarifies my views a lot. And some way the fierce heart is about showing that fierceness. And I think my second book will do that too. There's like, oh my god, like a 10 year warrior journey.

It is like superwoman stories. I didn't, it's hard when I, when I start writing it, it's like, wow. This is the second book's gonna be about something you discussed in our first podcast, which is the Shamanic world. In Buddhism and blending them, damn. It's not the Shamanic world. My path is blending them.

It's like, how does this actually help this? So for me, my life's work is gonna be bringing ancient medicine and Buddhist wisdom together. When you say the schematics world, and ancient medicine, you're, again, we're talking about ayahuasca here. Well, I'm talking about Amazonian shamanism beyond just ayahuasca. I'm talking about am... that's my tradition that I come from where I learned. Amazonian shamanism blends a lot more than just I was case a whole view about plants nature healing energy. It's like a whole pantheon of of plants spirits under it's a world. It's like it's like

Harry Potter when they go looking for, you know, the size the muggles and then the magic world. It's like that. Do you believe it's literally true? Um, I believe what has happened to me, what I've seen and understand and what's still unfolding. And so all I can do is what I believe, I mean, it's all true and all not true, Dan. I mean, if we're going to, you know, it's all, it's all true and all not true, Dan. I mean, if we're gonna, you know, it's just another story where making a sentence real is these headphones, right? I mean, there's another reality that says real is that.

I mean, can I negate it? No, the headphones are here. I can negate them. So you see some crazy stuff under the influence of the ayahuasca and you're not negating it is what you're saying. I think. You see crazy stuff walking in your dream world,

in your life, in your life in your well while you're freaking out about your you know anything people are always seeing crazy stuff on retreats I've dealt with more people that seem way worse than I wasca ceremony. I mean at IMF we literally I start my new book with the red phone where I grab the red phone and go help I mean you know Okay, we just unpack after so the new book you're about to write the opening scene is where I grab the red phone and go, help! I mean, you know. Okay, let me just unpack that. So the new book that you're about to write, the opening scene is you grabbing the red phone,

which is the phone. Emergency. Yeah, and that's at the Insight Meditation Society in Barry, Massachusetts, where they have a red phone for meditators who are freaking out while on retreat. Yes. And you actually picked it up. That was the opening chapter I picked up the phone,

and I go, help. And luckily Greg Sharp, whose friend of mine was in teacher training, was had it, you know, at the phone and ran and got, you know, food and crackers and talking down about it. Oh my gosh, I mean, I just, everything. It was like, I just, I was doing metajana. I've never told you this story. No, explain it. This is the story that's going to be in the next book.

It's kind of in this one, but I will elaborate because it's opening chapter because it's where I needed more help than what I could get there. I had surpassed the help, the help was it was beyond. I appreciated what was there. I needed in that moment, but I saw a bigger crack that I needed like, wow, there's something's broken on such a fundamental level that I can't on my own

within this particular system of sitting silently on my cushion heel. I needed something beyond that. And so that was what that that experience. Tell me the story. I want to hear it. Yeah. I do. So, yeah. So I, of course, being one of my specialties is wanting, you know, the heart practices. And I think that's what a fierce heart is about. It's like, I'm sorry to understand the heart. And anyway, that's a whole separate conversation. I got to be for that term, the heart, but we can let's just table that.

But we're just pointing to an energy of something that's bigger than ourselves. That's how I look at it, something that's so much bigger than myself, so much more powerful. So I had done many three-month courses, as you know, at inside meditation system. Three month retreats. Three month retreats. We just step out of the world,

relinquish your cell phone in your own. Fly from Oakland, leave my colorful community, and enter into. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight.

Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. Live your weight. locking slowly and it was, you know, painful at times, but also I cared more about the Dharma and that was what was the most important thing, what I was learning. And of course, Joseph Goldstein was my teacher at all those courses. Who is my meditation teacher and who has never come on this podcast, but whatever, not that I'm bitter.

Okay, well, maybe he'll hear this. He'll say, he knows. He knows. He's gonna do it. He's gonna do it when it be in the States. And so I was doing Meta-John, I wanted to do John Patis. Meta-John, I don't know. So John Patis is concentration practice. John is a term that means just super concentration

because there are other options in other word. is a term that means just super concentration, you can say, absorption's another word. And so... JHA and A, yeah, and there are several levels. They're kind of these, a friend of mine describes them, these like interconnected rooms in the mind that you can access if you get super concentrated. Yes, that's a really great way. And there's eight, typically eight.

And most people only access the first four. To go beyond the first four is kind of like city power. Most people don't even barely get to one. Most people barely get even to neighborhood concentration, which is kind of in the ballpark of concentration. Well, I had like an aptitude for for those states. I've had for my whole life. And so I noticed that it would be enhanced when we would do meta practice because meta practice is concentrated as a, you know, intensive. And again, meta, METTA is loving kindness meditation.

Yeah, so it's like superfied, you know, you're saying the phrase is over and over again, may be happy and peaceful, may be safe and protected, may be healthy and strong, may live with ease and well-being. Some variation of that, you're saying over and over again. So you're switching back and forth in your practice between one session, you'll be doing John a practice where you're getting super focused on the breath, and then another session you were doing meta, or were you doing the both at the same time in some way?

I was doing the meta practice as an absorption practice. Oh, I see. So because that actually is the most powerful doorway. It is interesting. Because if you think about it, the cause of concentration is happiness. It's not this bearing down image that we have like focus. Is it actually the one.

The mind is happy filled with love and happiness. Things happen. The mind naturally collects itself. It's a natural radiance, natural collectability. You know, when we're agitated, the mind is just like a wind storm. You know, it's never going to settle. This is such an important lesson for meditators because we do think that I personally have suffered from this him measurably, which is as a type A person that, you know, if you

grit your teeth and bear down, that's the root, but try it. It's called suffering. And most people pick up the red phone because they're doing that. The red phone is a breaking point in the mind where people just can't strive anymore. And they're just going crazy. So, um, so I was doing this, Johnic practice and it was great. I was working with myself.

I had the Dalai Lama is my object. As far as doing all day, what do you mean you had the Dalai Lama as your object? He was what I was practicing on. He was in the meta practice. You do categories and you to learn how to develop unconditional love. You use these categories. You start with yourself.

You do dear friend. You have a neutral person. You have the enemy. You got to come on one of my meta retreats, Dan. When you were the first person to teach me this type of practice in 2010 or 2009 or wherever it at Spirit Rock Meditation Center. And yes, for those, for the uninitiated, basically meta practice involves sitting, you envision

a series of beings usually start with yourself. You move to a benefactor, a dear friend. I often slip my wife in there. And then a neutral person, somebody you see, but often ignore. And then a difficult person sometimes referred to as the enemy, and then the finally all beings. And in each one of these cases, you're sort of visualizing them, and then repeating these phrases of, may you be happy, may, maybe live with ease. And when you taught me this, I thought this is the singular most annoying thing I have ever encountered. But it is, there's science that suggests it works. And a lot of personal experience as

well. Yeah. Our meta retreats are really powerful. You know, I last shared a two at Spear Rock. This year I'll do one. We do a meta in Chigong retreat in the first week of December. And it is brutal for people to love themselves to open. I've never seen, I mean, it becomes shamanic. People are getting sick, they're having asthma attacks. The symptoms of just trying to open to love, loving themselves and others, this bringing in this meta-energy, it is incredible. I mean, I've never seen anything. I mean, we all prepare for these for treats now.

The managers are like, okay, we might have taken people to the hospital. There might be a lot of throwing up, a lot of fevers. I mean, this stuff is real. It's not just a hippie talk. As you know, it's real. It's not just, you know, a hippie talk. As you know, it's science. It can improve it. So it has an effect on the body. I wrote about that I broke down crying,

which is not something that has happened before or since in my adult life. Come another retreat, Dan. I think we're ready for another one. As it turns out, I actually have a proposal for you about leading one of these retreats in a specific way that we'll talk about offline but so yes. For like really mean Republican types. I'm kidding.

And I'm kidding. Not over. No, they're putting you there. They're putting you in Democrat. Yeah, there are. There are. So anyway I had went there specifically because I wanted to work with concentration. I was in teacher training. This was part of my development was to explore the

genres, to explore absorption, to explore deeper states of meta. And the Burmese tradition Joseph found a very effective to use meta. That was one of his doorways and also, you know, breath body too, but also meta. And so I asked him to guide me for the three-month course in meta. And also, I think it was Guy Armstrong too, was also helping me. He also had a really big interest in it. So I think for the first six weeks, I did concentration working with breath. And then I moved for the second part into working strictly with the meta. And it was during that time that everything just my whole system went haywire because what happened was, when you say your system went haywire, how? Okay. So energetically this insane ringing started in my ears.

Joseph thought I had an ear infection. They were like, and it took me to see his doctor. I mean, it was, I was like, I was living underwater. Imagine one day, just clicked on, and I'm talking to you, but it's like, we're talking underwater. It was scary. I would look at the floor, and it would look like the ocean. And they were like, Oh, yeah, this happens in disillusionment. So they're, they're using, you

know, Mahasi side house map of incite stages of insight. Yeah, this happens at this. They're looking it up. Why I'm going to explain this for a second. Okay. So there is Joseph Goldstein. Again, my teacher, your teacher, amazing teacher comes out of a tradition that is Burmese and they Joseph's teacher is a guy named Mahasi Sayada and They look back to the ancient Buddhist map for what happens in the various stages of enlightenment Yes, one of the stages is known as disillusionment. Disillusionment, yes.

And so, like, that's things kind of go crazy. And you can consult these ancient texts and find, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the things get really weird in the following ways. It's really detailed. So, anyway, they were able to see that something like you look at the ground and you see water, that showed up in the ancient text. Well, some version of that, where the elements fall out of focus because everything becomes, you're looking at everything more on the energetic level, you're experiencing less solidity.

You see, and so I've decided to see, well, all right, well, water looks like this and that, those ground looks like, you know, everything's decided, but I didn't have capacity to understand that. And I'd read about it too. It's in this map they use called the Stages of Insight and where that's the classic go-to cheat sheet or whatever you eat up. Quick book, quick book.

Yeah, you have to be careful with that one. You can run into trouble. You can run into trouble or you could just endless driving and get on the wrong path. Then I couldn't eat. I was nauseated all the time. I basically, emotionally, it was the most crippling sense of abandonment. It was unbelievable. It was as if I had no refuge. I couldn't find faith. I couldn't

find any of these qualities that were usually my go to. And what's happening was I went so high in these sonic realms that it's a purification. That's been my experience with love, working with meta, working with these energies. It's like you step on the gas pedal and I wasn't ready because I had all this unresolved trauma. And it was like, I went so high and then I crashed down into the depths of hell emotionally. And so were you able to continue practicing? No, that's what became harder. The more I practiced, the more the symptoms intensified.

So pretty soon I couldn't even eat anymore. So the night I picked up the red phone, I hadn't eaten in days. I was about to throw up the floor. I barely made out of my room because I was basically like walking on water in this weird, just, you know, I felt abandoned totally disassociated from my body. Another very big danger. Now, they said, never happened to me. I had done many retreats. I felt like a warrior. I could sit through all I had to do is be president. I would tell myself that, but this I couldn't be present with.

It was the first time that I had reached a place where I couldn't be with it. So I pick up the red phone, there's Greg, you know, somewhere on the facilities, and he you know, runs and gets ginger ale and crackers. Are you trying to bring me down? But the more I practice, the more I was in the silence, the more the intensity of the ringing. Everything was magnifying. So you had to stop practicing.

I had to stop practicing. I had to stop. I ate some crackers. That was a momentary So you had to stop practicing. I had to stop practicing. I had to stop. I ate some crackers. That was a momentary, you know, you know, what did they do? They start cheering you up, encouraging you to read books, you know, it's a very interesting thing. You might have another show about like these kind of cases where people have to often leave the center or start eating meat, running hours a day, you know, there's all kind of tip bring the solidity. There's something that kind of cracks open and some people really

have the ability to be with it if they don't have a lot of trauma. You see, trauma is this exploding energy that we throw into a situation. It's like PTSD, right? So something feels out of control and disconnected. The mind falls into this cavern and that's what happened to me. I would imagine some, I have a thousand questions, but I would imagine some people listening to this would say, why would I ever do an intensive retreat if this is on offer? Right. Well, this is extreme. We're talking about a three month. We're talking about doing, I was diving into the, you know, the underworld of my mind. I was looking to pull out these things. I was, I was digging for it. Um, because it's like, and somewhere I didn't feel free. After a while with

a meditation, what can happen with some people, they can go along for a long time and they hit a plateau, they hit a plateau where they don't, they don't feel like they're growing as much anymore. It's like when they first meet it, there's a love affair, right? And everybody's happy. It's like, you first get married, right? I love the Buddha, the Buddha loves me or whatever. Mindfulness loves me. I love this. And then what happens is the door to the underworld starts knocking. And it's like, okay, it's layers that we're peeling off here. I mean, meditation is the path of purification. Purification? Tell me what you mean by that. Well, the word purification, and that's from the Visuti Maga, which is the ancient text that lays out another one another great one

That lays out the path to enlightenment. Yeah, which is called the path of purification Ultimately on the Vasuti Maga and how they sounds kind of high-falutin Purification. Yeah, the term Really? It's so funny what people how people some people get scared they feel like it's very religious Yeah, they're funny our association high-falutie Yeah Some people get scared and they feel like it's very religious. It's a funny association. Hi, Faluldi. No, purification is like you take something dirty, you clean it. It's the metaphor of the jewel and the lotus.

It's like what we're doing is we are purifying the mind of all of its delusions and obscurations. I mean, I love about the Dharma. I love somehow that the Buddha deposited that we're all enlightened. We just forgot. Isn't that optimistic? It is optimistic. Yeah. However, we forgot and that forgetting is a thousand veils. You know, a thousand things that obscure that we don't see our true nature. Otherwise, we'd be all acting differently. Wouldn't we, if we all saw our true nature, you know, which is, you know, they say, I know you're probably skeptical,

but is this innate goodness? No, I'm not skeptical of that. Oh, good, yeah, good. Yeah, this innate goodness, but we don't see it. Look how everyone's acting. Look at the blogs. It's obscured, man.

We can all agree to that. We're not seeing who we really are. Or who others are. Or who other exactly. So that's a purification of me. It's not a high-faluting word, it's not a religious word, it's not a scary word necessarily,

although everybody has an association with the word, but it means to clean, to clear away that which is obscuring. I think of it in the following context, which is that for me, I say this all the time, that the animating insight of both my personal practice and my public evangelicalism is that the mind is trainable. Yes. And so purification is just another way from my viewpoint, but

you can correct me if I'm wrong, of thinking about the training of the mind toward away from the things we don't like, like that we know aren't good for us, like greed and hatred, confusion, and toward things that we do want, you know, happiness, satisfaction, calm, patience, generosity, compassion, that kind of thing. I agree with you. Okay. Yeah. So, we're rather you call it training or clearing or moving or awakening.

All these words are trying to define that clearing process where we stop being sadomasochist into ourselves and become that part of our mind that wants to move towards more peace. Much more of our conversation right after this quick break. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown all are, we will be your resident not so expert experts. Each week we'll share

a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts,

you can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So how did it go for you after they brought you the after Greg Sharf brought you the ginger ale and the crackers? Not much better. I mean, obviously having contact was helpful and Greg was already my friend. You know, we were in the, you know, doing trainings together for years

and, you know, I trusted him. And, you know, he's been hours talking and I was trying to figure out, do I stay on the retreat or do I go or had a meeting with Joseph. Again, I think Joseph had tremendous confidence in me. You can open to this spring. Come on, you're fighting it out in there.

You're in. I didn't know how to really articulate how bad I felt and how freaked out I felt because I was already supposed to have answers. I was already in this teacher training. I was already supposed to know something. I think a part of me was like a little bit I'm better is like why am I falling apart? I can't be falling apart. Wait, I am falling apart So I didn't know if I could tell you and they were like the senior people and I was like kind of hiding a degree of my freak out from him And guy, yeah, I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't understand it.

I didn't know what was going on. So I left two weeks early and went home. Yeah, because I remember calling my sister and saying, it's all just falling apart. She goes, get out of there. Come back to Oakland, thinking the environment is killing me. Maybe it was the, I don't know, everyone's slow walking. I know she'll get back to Oakland, but it did not help when I went home.

It did not. It did not. No. How did you get out of this? Well, that led me to seeking out what we talked about in my first interview and where a whole nother journey started in order to get back into my body and understand what was happening. All I know was something is wrong.

And that's how I start the first chapter of the book goes going, something's wrong. Oh, that something was wrong. Let me go back for a second because this will bring us back to the beginning of this discussion and to your current book, Fear's Heart. Tell me about the content of the trauma. What had traumatized you?

I think what traumatized me was, one was kind of growing up early on in a lot of violence. So I think when you grow up around, you know, there was like helicopters, and I was glued and got to the side, and there was like gunshots. This is an LA. This is an, yeah, East Long Beach,

right on the Compton border border a little town called Bellflower And we just had all these gang members and my parents fought all the time and my father was using drugs It kind of drugs is easy. I think then he was really was like cocaine and alcohol I think pretty much those are always his two of choice and he's cleared that from you know He doesn't use drugs anymore in Now, at the whole, he's, you know, changed. But at that time, you know, he was, he had his own trauma. My parents were both, I forgave them a lot because I understood it. How could they not have turned out? Yeah, they actually doing better, I think, than some people might do. So then when, so then we moved around and then, and then as I got older,

I would have all these and there's like sexual abuse from family. Well, no, from neighbor, a neighbor when we moved into a new location, right? Because you kind of attract, you know, everyone's at work and kids get left behind, you know, and so yeah, there was a lot of pedophiles around where I grew up. It was kind of like a weird energy. They were just everywhere. I was like, yeah, it's kind of sad. It's part of the whole need to move men as we see so many people affected. Well, this is not workplace sexual harassment.

This is a trial, sexual abuse. That's a big leap. Yeah. And then- So both you and your sister had to endure this? My sister, not, my sister kind of got more unscathed. She was more fearful. I had this very outgoing personality.

So I was always around, right? I was out talking to adults, looking around. I was like, I think I was more available to that. First time recently. I didn't get gunshot after the first time it happened. Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. I actually told there was a neighbor and I told a lot of people.

And yeah, it was like, it's like a whole thing when he was showing movies to all these little kids and I told a lot of people and yeah it was like it's like a whole thing when he was showing movies to all these little kids and I told everybody I did. But the parents didn't add a hard time believing us at first that what was going on. It was repeated. A few times and again I didn't even have the worst of it. More came later as we got older and different things happen. Just what happens to, you know, is violent, traumatic things. And I was very sensitive when I was younger. I didn't realize how sensitive I was at all of this because I was very curious and very awake when I was young. I could like think about things, look at my, okay, this is not right here.

You know, I was able to, and you know, we see this now, like this eight-year-old girl giving a speech, you know? Like, I was, had I been in the right environment, I would have been speaking out, like I was seeing things. But, you know, things happen, and what happens is trauma accumulates, and then when I was 15, I left my mother's house. And like, every story, I could always see the cause.

You know, that's why it was always, some way it was easy to forgive them in a way. Doesn't mean I'm gonna be around them, but it was forgivable. This behavior is passed down. You know, this is, and how do you break these patterns? You're breaking the pattern. Yeah, yeah, I feel happy about that.

I do feel like I'm breaking a pattern. And what was emerging when I was on that retreat was a pattern, a piece of the pattern I was trying to break, but I didn't know how to do it on my own in that moment. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what was wrong. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to get to it. Because some of these things are at the DNA level. You know, we don't just get our hair color and eye color. We get past

the sound, whole belief systems programs. Well, you know, it's been shown that even the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors are more prone to anxiety. Yep. So this is not like woo woo stuff you're spouting here. No, and this is the kind of work that I needed to do that whatever it was like a breaking point and I had reached, you know, and on both sides of my family is mental illness. Like it's not a lineage of enlightenment. You know, it's like, oh my God.

Which makes, and this is gonna maybe embarrassing for you to hear me say, but it makes what you've done so incredible and so incredibly courageous. It's one thing for somebody like me, who was I was born on third base. There's really no history of, I mean, we've, I have history of depression on both sides of the family and things like that, but like two super loving parents who love each other and love their kids and we're doctors and you know really trauma-free life. One thing for me to dive into meditation, it's entirely different thing for somebody like you to do it. Well thank you. Well I'm I mean I love the Dharma. I love meditation. This has been my whole life. You know

I've dedicated, you know, I've been hanging around Spear Rocks since I was 23, you know, it's 20 years. What would your life be like if you hadn't stumbled into this stuff? I think I would have stumbled into it. I was dead, no matter what. Because I was a thinker and I cared and I wanted to know what was creating all this suffering. I genuinely had that answer my entire year,

even the teenager, you know, so I was a seeker. I would have found answer my entire year, even the teenager. You know, so I was a seeker. I would have found it. What about your siblings? You mentioned some of them are in prison. How have they generally fared? I would say doing better now. My sister, who I'm very close to, is always done well. I mean, she's had to overcome a lot of her own trauma, but she is also in a spiritual path. She's the one I connect to regularly. We're very similar. She, you know, she's amazing. She's two years older. And then I have three younger brothers. And I think for them, they're young African-American men, you know, they're growing up. They didn't, you know, my father, your mother, your father's side. Okay. So, yeah. Because your mother's white, if I recall.

Yes. And my mother's white. And so is their mother. Interesting. Yeah. So, my father, um, yeah, for dated white women a lot. But society tags them as young African Americans. Yeah. Because they don't look white. Yeah. You know, they don't look, they wouldn't, yeah, they look brown, you know, or non-white, you know, even though they're biracial. Yeah, they are biracial. And so it might be because of that, we all have a deep connection to that.

But they're struggling. And I'm trying to help work with them. My father was very difficult and their mother, you know, so that had so many other mother died. So they have a lot of trauma. So my goal is to help provide some stability for them. You know, they're kind of on their own, you know, my father is not. Yeah, his job is done. He's kind of lives in an alternate reality. Do you think meditation would be useful for people in this position? Yes, actually, my brother Lamaz, who's 30, he wants to come to a meditation retreat.

He came to Visimian California for the first time and he came to our center in Oakland. It was really into it. I was shocked. Interesting. I want to ask about some of the other chapters. Yes, I write all this about all these stories and a fierce heart. You write very well and it's the content of the of what you write about is I mean, you hear listeners will hear you delivering it kind of lightly, but it's shocking.

There's a chapter called Meeting the Great Chief. What is that one? Favorite chapter, but then I say that about all of them, damn. Because meeting the great chief was when I went on a five month retreat. Now, this was years after all this trauma, I felt way better. Okay, this is after the red phone. After the red phone, this is three.

This is about three years after the red phone. And so I felt much more in power place. So I was so tired, I was burnt out. I had all these projects going in Oakland. I thought, like, oh, I just need a retreat, but where do I want to go? So, East Bay Meditation Center is our center in downtown Oakland, which I dedicate the book to all the community there. Yeah, and all their stories have gone into this book too. All the beautiful stories, redemption, freedom, love, heartbreak. Because this is a diverse songa, and every songa, by the way,

is just Buddhist jargon for community. This is a diverse crew in every sense. It's socioeconomic, ethnic, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, so we have people from every walk of life, every lived experience. Yes. So you were burned out. So I was really tired. I'd been putting blood, sweat, and tears out for a long time. And so I wanted to go on a retreat, but I didn't know where to go. I read about Christown, Colorado.

At that time, I started practicing with a Tibetan teacher. And I heard about this really beautiful Tibetan center that you could do a retreat. Just fit eight people. It was at the foothills of these gorgeous mountain. Eight people? Only eight people. Which is good, right? Small is good.

It was a tiny little center. And it was in the coggy lineage, Tibetan Buddhist lineage. And I felt really connected to it. And I reached out and I thought, I'm gonna go there. And I going to do Tibetan style purification practices, which was interesting. That's really drawn to doing. So I was going to do 100,000 prostrations, 100,000 mantras. And. So prostrations being like getting up bowing. Yes. like it's the sun's Iutation basically a hundred thousand times why you 100,000? Why you image you you take refuge as the same time so you take refuge you take refuge in your

Buddha nature you take refuge in the the teachings that Show you that and then the Sangha the all the people supporting it and those who have symbolic the Sangha, all the people supporting it and those who have a symbolic thing in your mind of taking this is your coming home to the teaching. Yeah, this is where you go where everything else is unstable, unpredictable, uncertain, not going to last. According to the Buddhist teachings, these three jewels, these three refuges are the things that are stable.

This is where true refuge can be found. And so you do that, why you bow 100,000 times. So I set myself up and I was going to do also very intense compassion practice, where I was doing very certain images and practices and evoking the quality of compassion. So I stayed there for two months doing it in this little center. And I wanted to,

there was a really, just how you were true, there was this boot knees, Zochen master who was running the retreat. And he was wanted to practice English with me all the time. He would see me coming in, be so happy. And then I felt like I was getting cornered and more and more. And I was talking and I didn't want to talk. And so this nun told me about this cabin.

She said, well, if you want to be a real practitioner, there's a little cabin way up in the mountains. You can, you know, they'll bring you food. And, you know, it's just an outhouse, though. And, you know, you know, burn wood for an outhouse though and you know, you know, burn wood for heat and I heard that and I said take me out there. Please, I want to go out there and I went out to this magic a little cabin. I mean, it was no bigger than this room and this where we're in.

I don't know, 100 square feet. It was this be about it was yeah, and half of that was the altar and they had a little refrigerator and they had one solar panel on the top by the little light at night. And I went, I'll take it. And I said about, I moved in there for three months. Wow. Oh, Dan, I remember I had so many lofty ideas. I was thinking, you know, as I was moving over there,

it'd be so great, no one will bother me. It'd be so fun, me, and nature. And I'll have all these amazing moments. And so as I was getting up there in the caretaker, who was this crazy man, one of those mountain people, a long hair named Jampa, he started driving his truck down the hill after dropping the office. Okay, you're gonna be all right. You got your water. I'll see you in about 10, 12 days. And he joked down and I descended into the worst panic I'd ever felt I went, no. And for the next three months, that's what I had. I had hours of fear all night long. I shook and fear. I couldn't sleep. I just shook all night long and fear and terror.

What? I don't know. The minute it would get dark outside, it was, I feel like it was some primal. Again, I'm going to use the word purification because I can't understand it in any other context. I would sit as a knight would come. I would hear all the animals. I mean, I was way up there. There's a lot of black bears.

You know, they were starting to wake up. And you know, and the things out there, I just, I, I feel like any moment I was going to be annihilated. You know, the were starting to wake up and they're, you know, and the things out there. I just, I felt like any moment I was going to be annihilated. You know, the booty used to do that. Sit in the forest and wait for things to, to scare them and, and ride out my belief. Yeah, I was trying to do that. I was trying to, and that's all I had at, no phone, no computer. I had a stack of Buddhist books like the nature of reality part one through ten, you know, that was all I And I was waiting for the Netflix version Right, and I was thinking I'll teach myself

It's time to grow up and I was doing these practices and I would solve and solve hours of grief came I didn't even know what kind of grief that was I I call it African grief, not because I'm half African American, but because it would just come out of nowhere, and I would just start wailing, and they would turn into mantras, and that went on all day wailing, crying, and all night fear. So after a month, I thought I was literally gonna go insane. And then it dawned on me,

the only way I'm gonna get through this is if I have compassion. So I started praying for compassion to come every second. I was praying to Tara, Kwanian, Chen Rasek, Avalikit to Shabbara. These are all names for the same energy. Jesus, Mary, any possible guy, a nature, anywhere, the sky. And I decided to pray. And because I realized without compassion, I couldn't get through that level of purification. Like whatever was coming, it clicked on to some other, but I was no longer on the map that everyone else was on. We had on another. And I, what's funny as I knew it was good to do, I had faith in

it. I just didn't know how it's going to be with those kind of emotions and they weren't lighting up. It was going on day after day hours after hours and at night, the only way I could sleep at this tiny little bed was I would put these giant cushions behind me. I had these like, you know, zaffoos behind me. All I have was an altar and then I would imagine that I was They were these giant bosoms and then I would imagine being in the arms of compassion and that is the only way I could sleep And I would just be a couple hours. I'd wake up and then I'd have to keep that vision compassion to stop shaking. Who's the great chief in this chapter? compassion

Yeah, because what happened was when it came in, I felt like that energy was so profound that I started to understand the Dalai Lama's view on compassion, I started to understand all these great texts I'd read and these masters who say they would pray for compassion and how compassion was actually so powerful with insight because it could go to those places that we would never go.

You know, it could, it itself had its own power. And I started to feel that. So I started bowing when I was doing my postures and then I started bowing to the great chief compassion. I just nicknamed it that I was like, great chief or great priestess, but it came out as like the word chief though. So I said, I'm without the chief. So when I left that cabin, I thought I had a whole new understanding. Given the, really, the profundity of the trauma that you've experienced in your life, what about traditional medicine, traditional psychotherapy, medication, et cetera, et cetera? Well, I did all that. I never did. I never took medication, but I'd done, I mean, you psychotherapy, medication, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I did all that.

I never did, I never took medication, but I'd done, I mean, you name it, I did it. I mean, I did Hall of Chopic, Breathwork, Trauma, Release, Rebirth. I did traditional psychotherapy for periods, and it was very helpful. It would help me understand something, but it couldn't help me liberate it. It's funny, because I've heard the expression that, and I can't remember who said it, that psychotherapy brings understanding without relief. Yeah. And sometimes the understanding is the momentary relief. Yes. But it's not a true cessation. It's not a, and I would find that right away,

because I was willing to get right to the point. Like, I knew, like, so our time was efficient. My therapeutic time within five months, we were right on the right there. And then it was up to me to liberate it. What would you say your mission in life is? I mean, I don't want to sound like a cliche, but I really, really, really do think he's for bettering humanity. It really is for helping people. I really, really, every day I wake up with that thought of bodhicitta. Define that?

May this moment, may this life, may this day be for the benefit of others. I really feel like that. And my writing as we talked about, you know, is torturous, but it's not for me. It's like, suck it up spring. It's like, this could help someone else. This book is reaching the demographic that I wanted. It's reaching urban communities. How do I mean, I'm sure people are thinking this, but I'll just ask it in the most selfish way. Like, I mean, it sounds great to have that be your North Star, but it's not my North Star.

I mean, I would like it to be. Yeah. But like, how does one get there? Because when I wake up in the morning, I'm like, I want something to eat. And like, I need to, you know, to get all this stuff done. And, you know, when I write a book, yeah, I do want to benefit people, but I'd also like to be super successful and benefit me too, and my company, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know if I look honestly at my motivations, it's all bodhicitta.

Well, I think that again, Dan, I think it's obscured. It's there. I think it's innate in you. It's totally innate in you. I know that's a skeptic, and I know that it's like, no, you see these other forces. Like, oh, well, I'm great if I sold this many books or my company or I want pancakes and you know, yeah, all of that I have that too It's not that that's not there. It's not that I don't wake up with some of that but But what really excites me is is is is helping other people

is helping other people see themselves in a different way and know that they can find happiness, they can get better. Do you think in terms of living a life that is truly motivated by, let's just use the term bodhi chita or just trying to help people? There's really just about seeing that it feels better to live that way than to be stuck in the story of wanting pancakes. Yes, I mean, that's, it's a selfish motivation, actually. The Dalai Mama said, it's so great to be selfish because he said, altruism makes me happy. So that's why I practice it. You know, it's completely, it's like at the end of the day, the things that

make me happy are those moments of joy that I would people rather it's walking on the street in a class or I'm hugging someone or someone writes to me about, oh my god, I read your book. It's helping me. I'm going to go on my treat or I'm feeling better about myself. Those moments are what it's about for me. If it was just full of pancake drawings, wow, that's suffering. Well, that's most of our lives. Yeah was just full of pancake longings, wow, that's suffering. Well, that's most of our lives. Yeah, I look at most humanities, you know, Medicaid, it's suffering, confused, upset, or violent,

you know, or some variation, not everybody, but it's, I mean, it's indicative of that, so. It's cool to be with you. I reminded why I like you so much. Oh, I love you, Dan. And I feel very, I feel, I know it's, you have your own life, but I just feel so inspired from where I met you

to where you are now. And I think you're gonna, by the end of your life, you're gonna see this bodhisheeta with 100% clarity, because I think every year it's gonna just layers of it are gonna just get more clear, clear, clear clear clear. I'm working on that purification. I know you are. I know and that's what touches me about you. I feel that in your work and your projects and your company. I'm so I feel like a proud mom, but I'm not your mom. So we're a big part of it. You were right there at a key moment in the key moment in my first retreat. Joseph always jokes about how they they want to put. He's like, he

writes me an email pretty much every year when he goes back to spirit rock. He's like, yeah, this is the place of your great awakening. They put up a plaque. Yeah, we'll put you in the gratitude. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. It was well then. It was you were great as always. And I just want to say that I often admit I'm such a bad podcast host that I can't read people's books, but I have read enough of this to heartily recommend it. It's Very brave and very well written so thank you. Thank you Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast if you liked it Please take a minute to subscribe, rate us.

Also if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter, at Dan B. Harris. Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohen, and the rest of the folks here at ABC, who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with 1-3-plus in Apple

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