Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 146: Culture Abuse, Finding Peace in Punk Rock

Episode Date: August 1, 2018

For a long time, Culture Abuse's 31-year-old frontman David Kelling didn't want to perform in public. As all five members of the San Francisco-based punk band opened up about things they've tried to work through, Kelling, who has Cerebral palsy, said he felt that the frontman is "supposed to be good looking, in shape and this and that ... and so it is hard" when he "didn't really have any examples" of lead singer/songwriters who played with disabilities, and now that the band goes on tour, he added that "it's also hard to be the person now that is an example." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever 10% happier podcast. The most times we've ever had to bleep any guest or guests ever and probably forever, but well worth it.

This is unusual in a variety of ways. Well, one way that I just went to highlight early on is that we kind of did it backwards where we get to meditation at the very end. So let me just step back and tell the full story here. I've been kind of obsessed with music for a long time. In fact, the first thing I do every morning, it's just this deeply ingrained habit,

is I look at, or among the first things I do, is I look at the website the first things I do is I look at the website Pitchfork which every day they put up new reviews for records. And I don't know where I saw a review for the following band. I don't think it actually was on Pitchfork, but it was somewhere. I also look at the website Metacritic where they aggregate reviews for movies and TV shows and new music. And I think that's probably where I saw the reviews for band called Culture Abuse. And I had heard of them actually because they had done some really great songs with another band that I really like called Waves.

And it's W-A-V-V-E-S. I think it's how it was, waves, spells their name. And so I started listening to their record. This was maybe a couple weeks ago, and I loved it, and I tweeted about it. I almost never tweet about anything other than my son or meditation, and I tweeted about it, basically just saying that this record is one of the few records I've heard in memory where literally every song is catchy. They come out of a pop punk tradition, more punk than pop tradition in San Francisco, which

is a long history of a venerable history of punk music dating back to Green Day and beyond. And so they're definitely on the heavier end, but they sound a little bit like sort of a more cuddly nirvana or the strokes. But the album is fantastic, although as you'll hear, I do fear on some level for them that the fact that I love them and I'm 47 years old and lame is not a good sign for them, but anyway. The record is fantastic. So, I tweeted about it, not thinking it was going

to go anywhere, but they wrote back something joky along the lines of, hey man, you should put us on TV, we have a lot to say. And I just said, do you meditate? And they said, yes, I didn't believe them, but they said yes. So I said, come on the podcast, just on a lark. I said, come on the podcast and they said, yes to that. And so you'll hear the results. But after I, so it was only after loving the album and then after having a little random Twitter back and forth of them, that I actually Googled them. So I didn't know anything about them.

And when I Googled them, I found out something, I learned something really remarkable. So even after I invited them on the podcast, is when I learned that what I think is kind of the headline of the story, or one of the headlines, which is the lead singer and the guy who writes all the songs, David, had cerebral palsy. And in fact, had cerebral palsy. And in fact, in the one interview I found with him talked about how he's, he wasn't until his late 20s early 30s where he felt comfortable enough to play his songs in public because he was just worried what people would think of him. And it made me think, is there any band with any member who had, you know, prominently disabled. And I just couldn't think of any, although you'll hear it in the interview

that I guess mentioned the drummer for deaf leopard, but that's a while ago. And he didn't start out, he had an accident and lost an arm and then learned how to believe it was amazing what he did. But anyway, he's the front man of a band, and I can't think of any other example. And I think that's really incredible. And as you'll hear, he's the front man of a band, and I can't think of any other example, and I think that's really incredible. And as you'll hear, he's an incredible person,

and his story is remarkable, and as are the stories of many of his bandmates, I was a little worried going into the interview because I thought, what if I don't like them? And I love their record so much, but they turned out to be phenomenally friendly and interesting. And let me say one other thing before we get your calls, which is that my son, my three

year old son, Alexander, absolutely loves this band. And they're not kids music by any stretch. In fact, there are some songs we can't play for him because of the language. But he really loves this band. We listen to it in the bathtub and there's one song called Be Kind to the Bugs that he's obsessed with and I played around our house so many times that I can now recite it from memory. So, great interview coming up and you'll hear more of it in a second. Sorry for the unusually long intro, but let's get to the voicemails. My usual caveat, as you know, not a meditation teacher, not a mental health expert, just

a reporter who likes to meditate, so don't take my answers too seriously. Here we go, call number one. Hi Dan, just starting out with the meditation and it's tough, but I think it's effective but my question is and you might have already covered this somewhere along the way. What is your thoughts and feelings on using any depressions in conjunction with meditation? Thanks a lot. Oh you know a lot of people I get a little words sometimes when I hear from people that they're looking to use meditation to get off medication. I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, but I'm not anti-modern medicine.

If your physician and you agree that medication can be useful, I think it can be incredibly useful. And it's not either or. I mean, you can take medication and do meditation and do talk therapy and get your physical exercise and enough sleep any well. You can do all these things. And it all goes toward the same goal, which is making you a sander. And so I am, I think, antidepressants, if you and your doctor are of a mind that it's effective in your case, absolutely go for

it. It's a, and they've saved the lives of countless people. Now, are we overmedicated? You know, I, there are a lot of people who believe we are, and I think that's a, a problem worth discussing. But in an individual life, if we are, and I think that's a problem worth discussing, but in an individual life, again, if you're working with a physician, and you trust him or her, then I don't, there's no shame in that game, and if you've got depression, that is not your fault,

it's, you know, the brain is an organ like any other organ, and sometimes they can be problematic. So, a long way of saying, go for it it if you're doing both at the same time. I think they can work really nicely in concert. Here's the second call. Hi Dan, this is Matt from Indianapolis, Indiana. Quick question for you. If you had to recommend one book or reading that you've come across around meditation or

even more just classical Buddhism that you've read and studied over the last several years that you've gone deeper into your own spirituality. What book would you recommend or publication would you recommend to your readers and why? Thank you. That's a toughy. Just one. I mean I guess my show I can do whatever I want, but I'll try to play by your rule. I guess I would go with, you know, again, with the caveat that there are probably seven or eight books that I really would recommend. If I was going to go with one, I would go with Why Buddhism is true by Stephen Bachelor. No, that's not. He wrote Buddhism without beliefs. There is another book called Why Buddhism is True by Robert Wright, which is phenomenal. But let me give that honorable mention. But Buddhism without beliefs is by Stephen Bachelor and is really written from the standpoint of somebody who knows a ton about Buddhism.

I spent many, many years as a monk, but is not a person of faith and just practice. He's the one, he's the first person I ever heard say Buddhism is not something to believe in, it's something to do. And that really is, you know, the way I, I mean, there are people who practice Buddhism as a religion. I think that there's, I have no problem with that. But for many of us secular Westerners or Westerners who are subscribers of another faith, Buddhism is, you know, really safe place because you can practice Buddhism without having to believe in anything. And Stephen does a great job. I do need to get Stephen on this podcast because he's written many great books. But that was the first book I read

by him. And I think it's probably his most famous book. It's easy to read, short, and I think great and intriguing explainer for, you know, why it's worth training your mind in this tradition. And also why Buddhism is true is a great book too. That's the slightly longer book, slightly newer book by Robert Wright. And he's been on the podcast, and I recommend you listen to that podcast. So I guess I'm slightly cheating there. Robert Wright and he's been on the podcast and I recommend you listen to that podcast. So I guess I'm slightly cheating there. Okay, let's get to our guest this week. As mentioned, the band's name is Culture Abuse, the lead singer who is, this is the first voice you'll hear and we spend most of the time with him is David Kelling, although we do bring in the other members eventually.

He really has quite an amazing story. And as I said at the beginning, we end up kind of circling back to meditation at the end. So this is a slightly different podcast in that sense. But give it a chance because I think you're going to get a lot out of this. And I really think this is a phenomenal band who's and that they're you're hearing, you're hearing a band that you'll be hearing a lot more about later on. And also just fair one. There's a phenomenal amount of bleeping that we had to do because of the swear words, but these are punk rockers so Give him give him a break. Anyway, here we go. Culture abuse. David Kelling

I don't know where to start other than I love your record It's awesome. It really is awesome. I haven't I think I said this in Twitter. I've not heard a record in a long time where literally every single song is a hit. I mean, every song nails it. And usually people throw on either some sort of interstitial stuff or one really slow jam or I don't know, but you guys just basically said we're going to swing for it on every song. Well, it's kind of crazy because we went into the studio with like 14 or 15 songs and we

played the record for our engineer and every song and then like the first day he was like what's Pick 10? and then we just kind of like yeah I feel like this one, this one, this one, this one Pick 10 so there's like four or five more songs that didn't make the record that I personally now might have switched out a couple. Are they put out an EP? Yeah, well, we didn't like we'd just track the life Oh, I know see you didn't really and that was like part of the the thing that was crazy about making the record

It was like working with someone who Who'd like I mean we played the song once and be like yeah like this song in this song You know like no like listen to the song, yeah, like this song and this song. And you know, you're like, no, like listen to the song. You know, like, I don't, yeah. So you think you ended up with the catchiest songs because somebody else was making a gut decision. No, no, I think that even if we put out 15 song record, it's still what you would still be saying the same thing.

So you, are you writing all the songs? For the most part, I mean, like, and like, more of like the, the, I'll write the like, Bob Dylan, watch tower version and then give it to the band and then we play the Jimmy Hander X version. You know what I mean? So they'll rough it up for you. Yeah. And probably just imagining.

Uh-huh. Yeah. But so you're trying to, I mean, so they'll rough it up for you. Yeah, and probably just meditating. Yeah. But so you're trying to, I mean, you are, there is an ethos, I've been following whatever you wanna call it, underground rock, punk rock, indie rock for most of my life since some kid in sophomore year, home room slipped me a mixed tape with the minute men on one side

and Sonic Youth on the other. Hell yeah. There usually is this pressure in this world, You guys can tell me more about the world to alienate the listener on some level, challenge the listener on some level. But you seem to like, we have no problem just being catchy as hell. Even though you've got, I mean, the sound is roughed up

in a way that works. But you're not trying to, like, throw in a song that's just completely unlistenable. Yeah, I mean, that was kind of like the thing from the beginning of the band. It was like, let's just do, let's just, like, when we write a song or, like, we're learning a song or something, it was just, like, let's just make it easy, you know? And that's almost a thing that we, like, struggle with sometimes, or just to try was just like, let's just make it easy, you know? And that's almost the thing that we struggle with sometimes, or just to try to like, if it doesn't feel natural, then we just don't do it.

And then there's a million songs so far that we've started and just scrapped, because it's like, whew, yeah. But then the good ones, I mean, because there's the theory that like every, every song is like already written. And even when you like, when you, I feel like when I write a song and it's like a good one

and it catch you on, it'll come out in like 10 minutes. You know, rather than like, like the ones that you're like, oh, I just don't, ugh. So if you're struggling, that's feedback. If you're struggling, then it's not, then it's not a culture-be-song. You know, like, and so much of, like, I feel like a thing of growing up, like it as a musician is, like, when you play

in like your high school band, you wanna like show everything that you can do. So the guitar player is like playing as much as you can. And the drummer is like playing as much as you can. And like, you know, everyone's just trying like show how talented they are. When like now it's just kind of like, oh, it's just, let's just write something that someone could like bob their head to like the entire time.

And I have to be like, like these weird parts that you just get thrown off by. But you know, back in the day, I remember when Green Day, you guys are from San Francisco, when Green Day got popular, all the punk kids were, you know, they sold out and they were songs were too catchy. Do you get any feedback like you're too, you're too poppy, you're not pop enough? Oh yeah. I mean, I feel like people that are even like nice to us in person like talking behind our back. You know, like, and totally I feel like we're like,

it's kind of like, it's kind of weird coming from the Bay Area because I almost feel like the Bay Area to punk rock is like, country to Texas. Like your country, like if you leave Texas and you play country you're like kind of disowned. And that's how I feel like being a Bay Area punk band. It's like we're all good. Like when we're just in the Bay Area, but then as soon as we like left, then it's like, oh, those guys, you know, is it would have been knock against you that somebody who's 47 and has a three-year-old kid and is a network news anchor likes

Yeah, yeah, it would be that we should we should not release this That's why that's why we need a sitcom. We love modern family That's why we're in we're we've already sold out a long time ago, so okay, but I feel like I was gonna defend myself, but I should I'm not that's that's I don't want to get myself in too deep, but just tell me about this this you know I the order of operations here was I heard the record I think I I don't even know why I down I must have read a review somewhere Then I remembered that you had done these songs with waves, another band, and I loved those songs. And so I thought, oh, I'll listen to this record.

And I loved it so much that I tweeted about it just for no reason whatsoever, other than just once in a while I moved to the tweet about a record. And I mean, it's pretty rare. And I did it in this case, and then we started talking on Twitter and then it was only after I said you should come on the podcast that I started researching you on any level and I came across this fascinating interview you gave. So I found this out later but you talked a little bit about how the fact how you actually almost didn't play your songs publicly for a long time for a reason. Can you talk about that? Yeah, I mean, like, my whole life, I've been like writing like little poppy, little like poppy catchy songs,

but then there was like, I don't know, it's like, you talked about how that you were held back by some level of like self-destainment. Oh, totally. I mean, like, it's weird like just putting it out there, especially like, I mean like I it's weird like just putting it out there especially like I just like

Devoted my life to like the punk rock scene. I guess if you would or being like hardcore band or being like So then it's like weird like because I play guitar, but I can't I have cerebral palsy and effects the right side of my body So I can't I'm left-handed, but I have play the guitar right handed. I can't hold a pick with my hand So I just strum with like my fingers or pick with my thumb and so I don't play guitar like that Good or like or like in the Classic sense of like playing guitar or like Singing I don't know there was just a million things. It was just like, I was just so shy. I mean, I don't know how to like,

do you think they started all the way to play the role? I mean, yeah, it was a lot, it's a lot easier I found to like just get up in front of people and just like, if you feel like a freak, then you just like act like a freak and everyone just like, that's what it is, but it's hard to be like, if you feel like a freak, then you just act like a freak and everyone just like, that's what it is, but it's hard to be like, if you feel like a freak inside, do something beautiful. That's really interesting. And so that really held you back from doing what you wanted to do.

Yeah, and I didn't really have any like, I didn't really have any examples that could show me that I like I don't know I always had like little demos and I'd like play for my friends or like record like little you know like little things and show people here and there but then actually to like get to the point I'm 31 and it took me this long to like actually write song I what did you think that people would make fun of you or they wouldn't accept you? What did you think? I don't know.

I mean, it's one of those things that's just, it's like played in your head. Even when we wrote our demo, it was like, I wanted to do it in things in certain ways. And then we didn't, you know, then kind of kept it like live and we were just kind of partying and doing, doing a lot of, a lot of stuff and just kind of kept it wild and then we like went and recorded another seven inch and I kind of like still felt like I needed to

like yell even though I'm one like sing and then they're over-competiting. Yeah, and there was just things in my head like I was like okay well everyone like head bangs like, jumbug head bangs like in the band the band you know and like if I'm singing like pretty you know like no one's gonna like that like no one in the bands even gonna like that I don't know it's just like weird weird things of understanding but then I'm like okay well if you listen to like if you're in the van with us and you listen to the music that we listen to, it's like, no one really listens to like heavy music.

So. What do you guys need to add on the road? Don't say that's true. No, no. No. So I'm worried, but we DJed the other night and told him we were cussing out. Yeah.

Are there other examples of people who are either front men or women in a band or even in any prominent position in a band who have a disability? Every once in a while there's like some, some a ends with a hole that will like, that will hit a, like, yeah. There's like some, these are cowbell bands. There is people that will be like,

well what about this band? And then it's like, a drummer from Dep Leopard? Oh, it's scared. Right, right. I mean, that's the only example I can come up with. Right, and that's, that's like, and he was a drummer.

And that's the question, and that's, is what's difficult and like, it's kind of like a weird because I understand like I get everyone's like battle internally or or externally, you know, but there's plenty of bands with like females that you can look up to and love and they're Awesome, there's plenty of like bands with like, people of color, there's plenty of like,

all these bands that you can look up to, like to where if you are like, if you are a female and you wanna play in a band, there's a million f***ing good bands to like look at. And there's a million like good things, but then for me, it's like, who, especially a front man though? And the front man like you're always told

or the front person is supposed to be like, good looking and in shape and in like this and that, and it's like supposed to be like kind of the face of it, you know? And so it's like, it's easier for me to feel comfortable in like a hardcore band or in like a really weird punk band and just be screaming my head off or just spinning all over myself or doing something rather than to be like, I'm gonna sing you this very beautiful song,

you know, because there isn't. There isn't an example and I haven't really ever seen one. And so it is hard. It was hard. And like, I mean, we've been doing this like long enough now. It's going on like five years with basically the same crew. So I feel comfortable. I'm like more and more, we're getting to just be like, who cares? And like not overthink things a lot and do a lot of shit as a as a band. But before that, it was hard. Just like no, no examples. And then it's also hard to be like the person now

that is like an example, because it's like, I don't know, until the last year or two, I've never even really talked to someone else with cerebral palsy, because I've just never, there's not that many of us, so it's not like, you're like going to school, like, oh, yo, what's up? Like, you have a two, like, what of us, you know, so it's not like, you're like going to school like, oh, yo, what's up? Like, you have a two, like, what do you, you know, like, oh, that's crazy.

And like, and there's no real, there's no real perks. I mean, other than like a handicap placard and we get to park. Do you have one other? Yeah, hell yeah, I have one. It's great on tour. It's great. You don't have to be a meter, but like,

and that's like, and totally like me and Barbara and my girlfriend will be like, you know, co-parks somewhere, like looking for a parking spot and they'll be like, and you can't spot. And they'll be like, yeah, perks, you know, but like other than that. You can't see the airport, we get to jump the line. Every once in a while.

Every once in a while. Like, there's a bunch of times where they don't, and I'm like,'re you're a a whole But but then so it's like it's weird to talk about with anyone really because there's not there's not anything that's like There's not anything positive about it. It's like it's like the only, a lot of like the things I see people saying out for is like I mentioned before, like women or people of color or your sexual orientation and stuff. And that's all, that's badass. It's like, I'm gay. Hell yeah. You know, like that's cool.

And then, but for it, it's like, you have cerebral palsy. It's like, hell yeah. You know, like that's cool. And then, but for it, it's like, you have cerebral palsy, it's like, hell yeah. You know, it's like, no, no. That's fucking sucks. But, and there's nothing, nothing that can be done to make it better. The condition. Yeah, nothing.

There's nothing. I mean, I could do physical therapy. I could be doing things to like, help it. But then, now we're on the road all the time and there's no, is it a painful condition? Yeah, I mean, it's like all the muscles on the right side of my body are like tight and my brain, it's like my brain telling my, the right side of my body to do something, it's like my brain telling the right side of my body to do something, it's like slower. You know, like so it's like the left side. Oh wow, yeah.

He's moving his hands. I'm in my hands to like show the difference. But I'll say something and I don't know you maybe if you've heard this before, maybe you haven't or maybe it's embarrassing, but I'm just gonna say because I think it's worth saying that I actually think that what you're doing is incredibly important It's a big deal. That's why what my son to meet you because I think it's a really big deal that you can I think this band Is gonna get really big that's the kiss of death by the way I shouldn't have said that I apologize I don't understand I once predicted to to my brother still teases me. My little brother, I dragged him in front of the TV one day

and pointed out some random band. He still remembers the name Platinum Blonde. And I was like, watch this band. They were gonna be big. And I was like, 10, 7 or whatever. And they of course did not become big. So I hope I wish upon you everything that Platinum Blonde did not achieve. So it seemed like a lot of your decisions have led you to a lot of great things.

I don't want you to appreciate that. Thank you. I think, I think, I mean, you guys are incredible. And I think that having, I'd never even crossed my mind that just what you said. Of course, we need bands with all sorts of people who are celebrated for who they are and what they can do and we never had anybody with a disability. And again, I loved you even before I knew that, but it is, it strikes me as immediately and obviously incredibly important. Yeah, I mean, because it is an inspected f***** me off and not for like the negative way,

but there's so many like you know They'll be like a Coachella or like a festival and then someone will do like the look at how many females are in the bands that are playing You know, it's like the numbers are like crazy, and it's like name one name one person of one Festival that's not us now, you know like one one one f***ing festival that's not us now, you know, like one, one, one. There isn't, I mean, there is. The drummer for Death Leopard. That's what it is. That's what it is.

He's not playing Coachella. You know what I mean? Like, they should be on every f***ing festival to even out the ratio of everything. Or like, we even like, even on the Joyce Manor Waves tour thing, there was like this kid's- Those are two other bands they toured with him. This is already many of my audience. We did this tour with the Land Club Joyce Manor and Waves. And we were going to be on the tour. But then there was like this this thing. There was like, well, we're afraid

of like it being like to all mail. And so we might need to like do something in it. It was like again, like, wait, okay, so we can't be on it because we're all men, but then I'm not advocating anything. And then even when the tour got announced, there was other people being like, this other band, there's this other band that I won't name, but when I see them in person, I'm going to call them out on all this.

But there was like, oh yeah, well this tour is like all males. But like if you look, like look at these tours that are all just like taking away from like what actually we're doing and the fact of like getting in a van, writing in a van, like every venue that we play has nothing but stairs. Like getting on the stage is just stairs. A lot of times they don't even have stairs.

You know, it's crazy. Nothing's like- You got to pull them up. You've got to help my ass. I mean, at that stage, it's just a stage up against the back of the venue and there's just nothing there. Just for the record, let me just have you, because you're just a your name

just so people can recognize the voice. I'm John. Hey, KJUMBOOK. Yeah, we call him Jim guitar player guitar player guitar. Yeah, nice maker and the person who's dropping the a bombs on the side cursor. Yes cursor in chief. But so sometimes you just can't physically get on the stage. Yeah, I mean because the stage will be like you got to build stairs sometimes for him like we'll take like road cases and put them there so he can like use those. I mean, because the stage will be like, you gotta build stairs sometimes for him, like we'll take like roadcases and put them there so he can like use those. Because I mean, it doesn't need to be,

it doesn't need to be that high to be too high for me. I mean, it's shit that only people with disabilities, I feel like would understand kind of in a way, or unless you've like broke your leg or something, and it's like it's like anxiety It gives me anxiety just knowing that I'm gonna have to like get up on a stage that I can't get up on It gives me anxiety while I'm on stage knowing that I'm gonna have to like get off like we're gonna have to play a show And then like do this thing and then everyone's gonna have to like literally watch me like crawl off this stage

But then like bands will be on tour and be like there's no multi-gender bathroom in this venue and stuff and it's like It's not handicapped accessible at all and literally like if I through a fit or if handicapped people of the world through a fit, like more than half of the venues would be shut down. But I love music, you know, so it's like, I just want somewhere to play. Do you get anxiety about what people are gonna think of you? Yeah, a lot.

Because I would imagine people who like your band show up to a show and are not expecting to see somebody that's nervous. Some people don't get it either, like they just, they don't know that he has that condition and they just think he's like wasted. We get a lot of tweets all the time. It's like I saw a culture piece, but the singers wasted. You couldn't even stand up straight. Yeah, and it's like that's what's going on here.

And then but then sometimes they will. I'll just like and it will kind of going back to like what we talking about, is just like, I will get wasted. Just to be like, well, you think that I'm free, I'm gonna act like a freak, you know? And even like, I mean, the smallest things, and it sounds so silly, and I never like really won, like, admit it, really ever, but it's like, even just like, meeting people,

or like, you know, someone like, so our band, and then we like go to meet them and I don't like letting one down ever Part of you think okay, I this guy is ABC News loser like my band and you know a week show up and but maybe I hadn't done any research and I would be somehow disappointed when I saw you is that the type of thing? I figured like someone like you could just exploit it, you know? Like more.

Wait, I was like, is that a joke? No, I mean, but now, you know, like, no, no, not like that, like more like the cool dude, you know, because like that's the thing, and I've talked about it before, it's like, I feel like it's a good, like, people tester. You know, it's like, I know when I make someone feel uncomfortable. And it's usually the people that are insecure with themselves are the ones that obviously feel like uncomfortable around me.

It's like a litmus test. Yeah, kind of, like, because it is, like the one that's like a litmus test. Yeah, because it is. The one that's like, the person that's the most puffed up kind of like, you know how, I mean, growing up, you learn these things everyone does. Kind of like, it's like the louder you yell, the less you have something to say.

It's like a lot of times, those people are the ones that are like, I'm like kinda, you know, it's like, I mean now, now our band's getting bigger, so it's like doesn't really. They can't say anything to you now. You're right. Right, or like the way, you're like, yo dude, you're like, no, I know.

Like that's the other thing that's crazy, is there's like a million people that it's like, you didn't give a fuck about me. You didn't care, like, I don't know. And then now that the band's bigger, then it's like, dude, you win my dog. My whole, you know, like, no. No, no, that's probably for everyone.

Not even woodwork. Okay, I'll say your name now Shane Shane Stainer aka Sean aka shambles Stain staying living in shame. We change his name We actually just call him by a different name that usually I'll start with S Yeah, just so I can imagine where we're where we're. That gives you a lot of possibilities. There's a lot. And he's called himself.

He's even introducing himself in the wrong name, because we've called him the wrong name so long. So we were saying people come out of the woodwork now. Oh, yeah. Kind of going back to what you were saying, like the student who plays in like a metal band and that stuff and is kind of in that scene came up and was like, yo dude, like I was working out a bar and your band came on and this

dude who I was working with only plays like pop punk, you know, and he's like, I hate everything that he plays and then your music came on and I was like holy shit like I actually enjoyed this like this is good but he was like I like it because you guys like are you like because I like he knows that like you know I live in a green room at the bar I work at like because we all struggle yeah we all kind of struggle to like get here We all kind of struggle to like get here So you have in the green green room meaning in other words, this is about the green room where where performers go to yes unwind before they go on Yes, you live in that I live in that That speaks to a level of real struggle in order to do what you're doing

Yeah, but you know, it's kind of weird to hear like from someone who like didn't really one of f***ed with our band or really given it, he was one of those like SF Cool Guys. SF Cool Guys, being San Francisco Cool Guys. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah He was like going on about how much he liked the record, but really his main focus was because he knew me. Or you know, we're like knew that we're selling out maybe, as he said it, you guys are selling out, but you're still cool. And it's like the ethos in San Francisco, what Dave was talking about, it's like the more

you struggle as an artist, the more respect you get there. And if you create something and you're well off, it's like, oh, well, you're, it's like not worth it. But then a million people, a million people that are well off will cling. I mean, we were talking about this. It was like one man that's talking about that struggles of San Francisco

and we know that they live with their girlfriend, Ren, free. And then, let Shane's living in a green room of the bar just so we can go on tour whenever we can and make whatever we can. We have a major label record deal and you're living in the green room of the bar. It's just starting now. It's only the first record. Yeah. It's only Shane. Oh. It's only Shane. It's only me.

It's only me. It's strange that a lot of people think that they're like, oh, but you guys are signed. I never have money to do anything. I can't, you know, it's where broke. And people are like, but you guys are signed and it's like, yeah, but they don't, they're not like giving us money. Like at the States,

the record's only been out for a month, so far. So it's not how it works. Everything, there will be a day, you know, like, hopefully soon, it's like, oh my God, like, I mean, you've been, I mean, we can't hear hope and there was gonna be catering so we could eat it. Yeah. Yeah.

The only reason. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just, if you, a few more questions based on that article, I had read about you. You, you, I mean, you talked about some of the, I think was your term, like self hatred

that came about from, from having this condition. You even went so far to your girlfriends in the room. You said something like, you've even had moments of like, did I get this beautiful woman because the band's ahead and it's despite or like overlooking this disability. Yeah. That's the level of insecurity it can be.

Yeah, I mean, because like, I mean, we talk about, we talk about like bands and bands with disabilities or how it's like, what's name a movie where the main character, who everyone thinks is cool and gets all the girls, is disabled. You know, does that make sense? Yeah, it's like project yourself into a Hollywood. So it's like growing up in another,

and not even like heroic, like even just like, like what's one movie where there's a disabled person in it and he Everyone like he's cool or he saves the day or he or I don't know he you know like in a way It's like you grow up like not But then going back to like if you're a female like there's plenty of movies to like, you know, watch where you can feel empowered and you can feel like relate to someone. I mean, like, I mean, growing up everyone would like, make four scum jokes at me, you know?

Like, here and there, I- Kind joking or? No, I mean, well, a lot of people will kind joke with me. You know when I was like younger, I was like, ah, you know, like, like a little more insecure when like let it slide and now more and more it's kind of, okay, that's not funny. And it's one of those things like where I'll joke

around about things sometimes and then people think that they can just like joke around about it and it's like, you can't say that. You know, like totally one of those situations, but yeah, going back to like, I don't know, like there was nothing, nothing, nothing in my life ever that showed me that there was success for growing up with the condition and the life that I had.

Was there something about your life beyond the condition that was challenging? I grew up outside of Yosemite, out of dirt road, in a litter, like a one bedroom cabin that's probably as not even as big as this whole room. This room more than is reasonably big, but not huge. But one room, I slept on the couch till I was 19 years old and like my parents bed was probably like and they were going far away. Yeah. They're still together and they were all in there. It's like so supportive. We didn't have. Loving family, but we didn't have like any money. I mean we couldn't get cable. They still don't have internet. They're just, my

parents don't know what YouTube is or Netflix or they're watching his mom trying to face I'm in the other day was brutal. She got, I know, she got an iPad. It was like the classic like, mom, you got a, you're too close. Yeah. There's a point in the corner. But yeah, it was probably not even like half, like smaller than half of this room. And it's just like a log cabin. And then my parents got like a Volkswagen bus. And every day after school, I would just go say in the Volkswagen bus and like play acoustic guitar.

It paid off, man. The glory, it is paying off. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's paying off in my benefit, because paying off. I don't know. Yeah, no. I mean, it's paying off in my benefit, because I have great music to listen to. I don't know if it's actually literally paying off for you in terms of economics. But, um... I mean, the checks, the checks in the mail.

I hope they say that. I hope they say that. I hope they haven't wired deposit that thing. Much more of our conversation right after this quick break. Hey, I'm Aresha, and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wundery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newer series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Rue goes out searching for love and acceptance.

But the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Rue off course. In our series, Rue Paul Bornnaked, we'll show you how Rue Paul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. So the song that my son's obsessed with is B-Kine to the Bugs, although he calls it B-Kine to the Bs. And he's not wrong about that because those are literally

the first words of the song. It's rare to hear a song on a record like this that appears to be about kindness to yourself and others. Can you, am I misreading the meaning of the song? Can you just walk me through what you're trying to say on that song? I don't know, I feel like a lot of the songs are just like, a lot of the songs are just like, a lot of the songs are like slightly negative and slightly positive.

It's kind of like the lyrics or the emotion is like kind of how you thought processing a lot of things. You know? So it's literally like, I don't know, I read, I read Sadartha, like her, the Herman Hess book, you know, and I know that a lot of people have read it years before, like in high school or something, but like I read it and was kind of like about, you know, like the less you have, like the more, it's like almost like, I don't know,

it's hard to explain, but. Oh, meaning that it's, it's kind of an argue, I haven't read the book in about 10 years. I read it as a grown up, but it was a while ago. But maybe the message was something along the lines of having too much, which we think is going to make us happy. Actually, it doesn't make us happy. Yeah.

I mean, and he, you know, he like goes through and he, he's like a Buddhist and is trying to search for enlightenment and goes like without anything for so long and then he like Goes into town and he meets meets a woman and the woman wants someone with money and stuff and he can like Save up his money because he never had money. So then he doesn't have to he doesn't spend it because he never had You know like it's like all the things like you can acquire like the less you have and the more you're okay with it, then like the more you can accomplish because you've never really had anything. And it's also in the same sense of like being like the less you expect, like the, you know, like you're not, you're never let down if you expect nothing.

I don't know. We were like, everyone's talking about like bees crisis, and I have something so small can affect the whole universe. And so it was just kind of like talking about, originally the words were, we kind of the bees, we kind of the bugs, be cautious of people, be careful with drugs, because it was still like, I'm not saying that you have to like just be you still need to like watch out for people because like you know that's a very different message to the the can you say the current lyric well and then Brett gurowitz the owner of of epitaph was like

now you need to you need to change it to conscious of people because you say be cautious of people be careful with drugs. That's the same thing. Cauchess and careful is the same thing. And I was like, yeah, no, but that's not what I'm trying to like say. But he did like, and I am, I feel like an advocate of being, trying to be conscious of a lot of people. But so the first verse actually says be conscious of people and the second one says cautious. Oh really? Because I kept it the same. You know just that can I have my own

like little like how? I should say epitaph is the record label. Grace record label in the world. Of course. That goes without saying. Yes, these guys are rolling in it. Thank you, Ed. Covered it through. So it really wasn't initially a song about kindness to other humans. It was more like, be at nice to animals, but, and a bit. But kind of like, take care of yourself. Like, be just aware of your surroundings, but then also like, and then the course is kind of like,

like, I mean, we were living, like just bouncing around kind of in the Bay Area and there was a one-plate where I had, was in the middle of a move and like took everything, like open up a storage unit, put like a lot of stuff in the storage unit and then took like every single piece of clothing that I had, every like, every camera, every like, all my clothing that I had, every like every camera, every like all

my **** that I loved, I put it in my car and like had it. And like I didn't have anywhere to stay. I was like crashing on someone's couch and I don't really know why I did it or why I do a lot of stupid things. But then my car got broken into that night and they stole every piece of clothes that I had except the ones that were on my back. They stole every camera I had, everything, every photo, every possession that you cared for.

They stole it, you know? And so it was like, it kind of like crushed me and kind of like changed my whole, like outlook on the world, like kind of put me in like a depression too, because I didn't have like anything, I wasn't living anywhere. But then kind of coming through it on the other side, it's like now, it's like, we'll purge all the time.

Like, you know, like, me and, Barbara, we'll be in my room and I'm like, I'm just like, I don't need this. And one of my friends told me, Barbara's your girlfriend, just friends. Barbara's my girlfriend. And we'll totally do these things like a purging. You know, like we call it and it's just like, cause now it's like, you can go without anything

and be fine. You know, for the most part, you're having somewhere. Movie about this on Netflix. In the movies? Yeah. I mean, that movie, actually. Does a prick go into my life, friend? Yes.

Basically, the question that you ask. But wait, let me just say, this is a new voice. Yeah, hello, I'm Ross. Ross is the drummer. Yeah, by the way, you're a really good drummer. The only instrument I know how to play, and you are a really good drummer. All right.

Were you on both records? Yes. Because the style changed a little bit. They changed the first and second record, your style. Definitely. Yeah. We were working a crazy digression here. Sorry.

So yeah. Go ahead. Just working with some different people on the on Bay Dream, the newer album. Just having different ideas come in, and trying to not necessarily necessarily steer it and like a I don't know it was more like it felt there was parts that were On the first record having it was awesome, but I felt like you were showing your chops in a way Yeah, the first one was just like explosive. Yes, bombastic like go nuts and just like

Fill every two seconds and just be, like, crazy, you know, play as heavy as hard as I could. And then the next one was more like, we had some help with with some of the, like, let's maybe, like, not do, like, a crazy fill every, you know, five seconds and, like, be more thoughtful on where we put these parts and definitely, like, kind of tamed it down a little bit, but I think it served the song in a good way.

So. There's our first time working with like a producer, too. So the first record was just you. Just us and then you had a friend and a friend recording it. So like Dave basically produced it. Yeah. But like this guy's like, you know, he that's what he does for living. Yeah, so he was some crazy axle.

Yeah, but it was it was kind of like this thing, and you know, you're like, we're a f**king punk and you f**king bash the sh** out of it. You go and then like kind of where we talked about at the beginning, it's like growing as a musician. It's like, you listen to the Ramones, they're not even necessarily like just bashing the hell. Like, you listen to the Ramones and you wanna like,

you know, you get at least me, like I get fired and you want to like, you know, you feel like the energy that you feel from punk, but he's not screaming, he's not bashing the drums, you know, so it's like if we were doing a song like be kind of the bugs and Ross is like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's like, that doesn't really, you know? So it's kind of like more trying to play to the actual song rather than like, before it was like still trying to like, was afraid of taking the actual step of just being like, fuck it, and we're still trying to like, make a crazy punk record, you know,

and like thinking about like, how long kids do mush? Still, or? This is moshable music, it's just catchy. Yeah, yeah. To make it more like in the pocket, I guess. This drummer, Hal Blaine, is part of the wrecking crew. And he's like one of my favorite drummers, and he recorded on all that Phil Spector stuff, all the sound you know like and like just like thousands of like hit songs you know and just like

bit like a very pocket drummer and just you know that. We'll define in the pocket for folks. I guess it's just like capturing more of a vibe rather than like yeah like David saying just trying to like just show your your chops or whatever or just like be like this is how good I am. Or, you know, it's like, I don't know. How would you guys describe pocket? I guess like, play more like reserved instead of just doing as much as you can all the time, you know?

And it's not so, it's more like kind of. Well, and in the pocket, it's like to me, like, kind of when you do anything like creatively and you feel like in tune with it all, you know, it's like, kind of like we also track the drums last. We recorded. When we recorded, when we recorded,

we did some scratch drums. I mean, we actually looked up, did our research and like one of the big things for the new record was like, I kind of wanted to go for like a slime the family stone Feel or like Paul Simon feel and we like is not what came to mind when I was listening to it because to me it sounds like catchy I hear notes of Strokes nirvana. Maybe a little pixies. Maybe a little hold steady Maybe a little hold steady Hold the

Up The singers are boy he's fantastic. He's a best. Yes, we're playing a show with them coming up Really here in Europe All right, so I usually do this first, but let's do it last Meditation any experience with meditation Yeah, I mean not not as much as I should. But I have people of all levels of experience that don't get cheapish. But there, but there's this, there was a thing

called against the stream. Oh, yeah, I know against the stream. And, and it was pretty close to like where, where we were living in San Francisco. And he just defined it for folks to tell people what it is. It's this dude who wrote the book, the Dharma punks. Dharma Punks, so it's Adam Levine, is that his name? No, what's his name? Noah? Noah Levine, right. He is, he wrote a book called Dharma Punks

and he started basically which is kind of a linear, just a school of, kind of a modern school of Buddhism, which is focused on people kind of in the punk rock community and recovery. And one of the teachers is based in LA now, Joanne Harper, who's been on this podcast and is part one of the teachers on the 10% happier app as well. So I'm definitely familiar with their work, they do great stuff.

So one of their outposts was close to where you were living in San Francisco? Yeah, in San Francisco and in LA too, I've been down there. And it's pretty cool because they do like guided Meditations, but it's also like some like tattooed punk dude who's like, yeah, you know like I'm just like Think about like in my head, you know like where you're like it doesn't you can kind of like relate and you can kind of like let Let your guard down when you feel like a little bit more comfortable, you know? But you're not surrounded by the aging hippies or robe gurus or other people who look like you. Yeah. If you feel like judged or you feel like you're just thinking up the place,

you know, like you might, you might be a little more reserved. But so and then one of our friends too, who's, who's a director who lives in New York City to his name is Rob Sousi, and he really meditates. Like every morning, we did a couple road trips where he drove across the United States, like in a car, helping our friend move, and I'd wake up wherever we were in the morning, and he'd be like seven in the morning, like against the wall, like actually meditating, you know, and it was like, he kind of like, there was a few people in my life that that made me feel like it was like, okay, and cool,

and I helped to understand. It's like, it's like, of course, of course, to like take time in your life to like just stop for a second, you know, especially like if you're living in New York City or living in San Francisco or we're living in L.A. it's like there's something all the f***ing time. You know like growing up where I grew up it's like it's quiet as like out by your semit-y, know, so it's like even if you're not meditating you are kind of because you can just actually sit there. We didn't have like cable or internet or anything. So you are just like at times just there like with yourself or with nothing, you know.

But then now it's like, yeah, I understand the importance of it. But have you made it a regular practice in anyway? No, no. But you do get yourself together to go once in a while, it sounds like. Yeah, or try and it's kind of like one of those, it's the fucked up thing with doing what we do because it's like, you're always like,

okay, like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, and then there's all this shit that we do nonstop. Like we were in Europe last week, and then there's all this shit that we do non-stop. We were in Europe last week, and then the day that we got back, we had to drive down to LA and play some secret show for a bunch of music supervisors. And then the next week after that, we flew out to here, and then the next week we're like doing this, and then the week after that, we're like, do this. So it's like you make all these plans or these like ideas or things that you need to do whether it's like

Meditation or physical therapy or something and then before you know it It's been a year and we've just been like gone. I think you gotta give yourself a break I mean you're riding something here. You gotta just see it through Right, although I would say meditation is more portable and easier to do on the road than physical therapy Probably a friend of mine recommended headspace Great, I'm partial to 10% happier as an app, but Does that cost money? Not for you it won't

I feel like Oprah you get a car I feel like Oprah, you get a car. You get it. So what, what, what, if anything, like, why is it attractive to you? I mean, you talk a little bit about this, but what if anything did it do for you on the times where you have done it? What, what about it speaks to you other than the fact that in this, and against the stream, they have tats. I mean, just like, I mean, growing up, one growing up where I did grow up, it's like, it's like I'm used to like, I don't know, I need like, some time here and there to just like, I mean everyone does, of course.

But and then just to like, kind of, I don't know, it's like, it's like, everyone needs sleep. You know, like, everyone needs some like time. I mean, you got it. We are besieged all the time with information all the time. You're moving around. And the brain needs to, you need to teach how to focus. You need to teach it how to not be distracted, which

is another thing you sing about and become to the books. So yeah, it's important to do it just the same way you've got to work on your body. Does anybody else here have an interest in it? You were talking about headsets. Just, yeah, friends, this is from the last tour recommended headspace and I down the to the app. Like we're in Seattle and just in like a three minute or five minute exercise to start, just at a cafe I just kind of like walk to and It was crazy because I didn't really know to expect but it actually like

I don't know I have this sort of like Zen feeling come over me which is kind of sort of cheesy to say I don't know but I always like when you say zen feeling what do you mean by that specific? I don't know just like the way the breathing exercises like it's hard to describe because it's something that I've never done or, you know, it's like... Did you keep up with it? I did a little bit. Yeah, like, I'm too, I definitely noticed after the first one that there was like a noticeable difference and I almost kind of was so relaxed that I fell asleep for a little bit in that cafe

Or like kind of just like sort of lost track of time for a second and How do you back to the venue or whatever but then like Yeah, but then can David can David be a diva We can all beat divas from divaa. Higher diva. You want to see? Yeah, I'm trying to get away, you know, and like, just like touring is just such a commental. You got to like give yourself some space alone and just like, personally, I, you know, I like just like going on walks or whatever, like getting lost and having that time alone. So to add that to it, I think helped a lot.

And then I tried to start it. So I did it a few more times on tour, but it's just like hard in the van, especially as well as trying to do it in the van once. And then it was just like I couldn't get comfortable. You really need to like, you're kind of like, a bench seat that's just not comfortable at all, or like the floor or wherever you're sleeping. You actually sleep in the van? Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. That's where I get most of my sleep. I'm here, I sleep in the green room. I don't have a driver's license. Yeah, you don't have a driver's license. Well, see, my parents like dipped out on me when I was 16, what does that mean? Dip like they.

Like left, like pretty much. Both of your parents? Well, my mom moved across the country from San Rosa to like somewhere in Philadelphia. I don't even know where she went. And then my dad's like, he was living in an RV. He couldn't really like take care of me and my sister. So like, never at a car, like never really, you know,

I've been homeless pretty much since 16, like kind of living places for like months at a time before me and my kids had friends got evicted or like, you know. But I guess like, I was having this experience that I was at work, you know, it was just when I moved into the green room. And I had a coat, I was like freaking out over something. And I was like having a really hard time and My coworker was like give me your phone

Give me your headphones like give me anything that will distract you and go sit up there with the lights off And I will tell you when to come down and she like locked me in this room with nothing. And I think that was my first experience with actually slowing down and kind of thinking about all the things that have happened and how I get to the point where I almost feel like I'm going to have a panic attack. And then that's something now that I tried to do, I don't do it regularly, you know, because I just usually don't have a dark space

to sit in alone, you know. You don't need that, by the way. Yeah, you don't, you don't. I don't think I have the, I haven't gotten to the place where I can create that box, you know. We should talk about that, because actually I think one of the biggest obstacles to meditation. First of all, what happened to you with your parents' terrible?

So I just want to acknowledge that. That sucks. But the second thing is that I think one of the natural, so this is not a criticism, one of the natural obstacles that people have to med-meditation is that we think we need to reach some special state of calm or zen or imperturbability, but actually really what meditation is about is being okay with whatever's there. The point is not to be unnaturally or bulletproof imperturbability or whatever.

The point is actually to be able to surf the chaos instead of drowning it. Yeah. So you can do meditation on an uncomfortable chair, you can do meditation in a smelly van, wherever really all it is is paying close attention or whatever's happening without getting yanked around by it. So usually to start with your breath, you feel what your breath feels like coming in and going out,

and then when you get distracted, you start again and again and again. And that may not feel like being in a dark room where things are really calm. What it may feel like is, wow, my mind isn't saying. It's seeing the insanity allows you not to be owned by. Totally. And that is the game. And I think I mean, I try not to be too much of a proselytizer, but it sounds like it

could be useful since you are already gravitating toward it naturally. Yeah. Or just having people see, like, if you kind of just, because I feel like one of the things like Dave says, like, we just haven't stopped since we've started this. And there's so many things that happen that I feel like I don't have time to really look at it and be like, okay, that happened that I feel like I don't have time to really look at it and be like, okay, that happened. You know, or like, it's just kind of like, okay, that happened, put it into the back of my mind and then because everything else is just happening just as fast.

So I think that is like, that is a practice that I think would be useful for me to actually look back and be okay with the things that have happened instead of just like, oh, I'm not going to think about it. Yeah, because you know what, even if you tell yourself you're not thinking about it, it's there. It's there. And it's acting on you blindly. Exactly. It's driving you in a blind way. So it's like, you know, I mean, there are lots

of modalities. Meditation is not a miracle. I'm for all of them, you know, the medication, therapy, physical exercise. Like there are a bunch of ways to get at the pain of the human condition. Can you describe your typical practice for just in every day? Yeah, so for me it's basically said in a reasonably quiet place, but if it's not that quiet, I actually will just pipe a little white nose into my headphones and close my eyes, or if like I'm in an airport and I don't want to sit there and be obviously meditating, I can just have my headphones in and kind of gaze softly at a neutral spot on the ground And then all you do is bring your full attention to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out

So you just you're not actually thinking about your breath. You're just acknowledging it feeling you feeling the raw data of the rising and falling of your belly or the air coming in and out of your nose and then you will very quickly get violently distracted over and over and over and by random thoughts, by powerful emotions, by whatever. And that's actually part of the game. It's not a failure. The moment you see that you've become distracted

is the moment you are meditating correctly. Because the game is to see over and over and over how wild the mind is so that That wildness doesn't drive you all the time and it's just like a process of getting familiar with Your actual life Because most of the time most of the things we do that are most embarrassing or most negative or when we're owned by our ego the ego has you You know like eating stuff you don't need to eat or taking drugs embarrassing or most negative. Or when we're owned by our ego, the ego has you, you know, like eating stuff you don't need to eat or taking drugs you don't need to take or saying things

in a relationship that are more toxic than you need to say. And actually, you, with meditation, with more self-awareness, with more familiarity of your own mind, you can kind of see the storm coming before it fully hits makes landfall and you're done. You're often running your, you know, seven paragraphs deep into a argument with your significant other that you didn't need to have. So it's not foolproof. I mean, I make really dumb stakes all the time. I just think I make fewer of them than I used to. And that's largely just because I can kind of see, oh, I'm before whereas the anger would hit and I was off right yeah so that make any sense yeah yeah

one of the guys that uh that I can David talking against the stream this is David yeah uh one of the guys that against the stream spot said some one time he was like I just imagine like taking a sponge and just like scrubbing my brain and like I like and uh that was like, I just imagine taking a sponge and just scrubbing my brain. And that was one that was like, I really like to not imagine even just scrubbing all the little nooks and crannies of your little mushy brain. And the thing about cleaning anything is you're going to get in touch with some pretty ugly stuff. And that's okay. I take a lot of people get in touch with that ugly stuff,

or even if it's just completely mundane, you know, thinking about what's for lunch, people see that happening, I think. I think it was you who said at the beginning, you, before we started rolling, you said you tried meditation once and it failed. Was it you or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

By the way, say your name. I'm Nick. Nick has not spoken yet meditating over there um trying to try it 10% happier half that's right I feel like David should have smiled and there would be a little like little glint off of this team uh people have this moment where they see oh my god I'm thinking about all this crazy stuff yeah I can't do this but that is doing it yeah that's the reframing that I that's basically People have this moment where they see oh my god. I'm thinking about all this crazy stuff. Yeah, I Can't do this but that is doing it. Yeah, that's the reframing that I that's basically the foundation of this company is me just saying that over and over again because Meditation as a huge PR problem, which is people think they can't do it But actually the thing the moment when people are thinking they can't do it is the moment they have done it

Right, yeah, like even like coming in the touch with like someone like like, like, like, I don't know, I get like super scatterbrained all the time and I'm just like, my mind's on a million places at once, but even just like trying to like, yeah, just take a second to like calm down and like when you hear those things, you're like, oh yeah, that's weird and like, you know, just like looking at it differently. Absolutely. But what you described as your mind's all over the place, that is a symptom of being a human being.

Yeah, that is just nothing more than that. We may, there are, there's a spectrum. Some people have wilder minds for a variety of internal or external reasons. But like that, we descended from nervous monkeys who were always looking out for threats or food. And that's just the mind we have. And so, no point getting anything ever think about threats or food.

Is this going to hurt me? Or is it going to hurt me? Or is it going to hurt me? This is going to hurt you. Jumbug. Jumbug looks like he's in, let's finish with you. Have you done any meditating or? I've never been to a classroom, anything like that.

But there's definitely been times where I've been so incredibly stressed out in life because life is crazy as shit. And on the point of having a panic attack or whatever, just like my mind is doing a million things. And I'll just go outside and just sit there and just close my eyes and just I guess yeah, just kind of pay more attention to my breathing than anything that's going on around me That's it and it helps yeah, and I'll just do it for like I don't you know

Yeah, like five minutes or something. I'll you know, I just listen to like the traffic or whatever and Yeah, that's like sometimes Life is just so sh** that you have to not wort, you know. There's nothing I can do about some of the problems that I have. So it's like, I'll just shut everything off in my head and just focus on what's happening today right now.

So what we're gonna, what this, hopefully if you use the app, which will be free for you, what we'll teach you is just like a slightly minorly, if that's even a word, enhanced version of what you're already doing. Just a little bit more like a disciplined version of that. That's cool. It's a cool thing to reiterate too, that you can do meditation wherever, because I feel

like that's like a lot of, because I feel like that's like a lot of us have the same. It's like, oh, I don't have a space. I mean, especially because we're like the only time that we're away from each other is like when we're taking a sh**. And even like when they're taking a sh**, we know that they're taking a sh**. You know what? But so it's like, that's a thing for us to our whole lives pretty much.

Cause everyone's like, no one lived in a mansion, no one like, you know, ever had their own little space, I think, ever. But so just to also teach yourself that you could just be okay in the world and do it anywhere and then come to full chair. You don't need to tell yourselves the story that you need the right conditions. Because they're, they're almost certainly not gonna come.

Yeah, even like, just do it by yourself. Like, really? It's like, in my head, it's always been like, oh, you reach this like Zen moment. And you just like, everything's okay. And it's like, yeah, but like, yeah, when you're sitting and it's like, no, but getting distracted is part of it. And it's like, yeah, but like, yeah, when you're sitting and it's like, no, but getting distracted is part of it. And it's like, oh, well, then maybe I have actually been successful.

There may be Zen moments, but you can't wheel them into existence. And yeah, I mean, what you described, what Ross described as being in the cafe, were actually really, he did, a sense of calm came over him. Great, that does happen, but it doesn't mean he did it right and you're doing it wrong It just means like that's the situation that or rose there

And next time he meditates that it may be the exact opposite it doesn't matter It's really not about being able coming a better meditator It's but but like being better at being alive. Yeah, that's the skill you're trying to train. One last question for you guys. Given that I've only heard the sort of personal narrative of David and Sean, right? Shame, shame. But Sean is one of the names. Sean's one of the names. Okay.

But it sounds like, I'm just gleaning from some of the comments that all of you have had personal challenges So I guess I guess my question is if my Prediction about the trajectory of this band is correct and that things do work out well Which I will be very surprised if they do not will won't that pose challenges of I mean we've seen behind the music Right, so yeah, what that pose challenges to? We've seen behind the music, right? So look, that pose challenges too. Yeah, I mean, that's something that, that is a big,

it's like a big fear and something that we actually like, kind of talk about too, because it's like, it's like if we can fuck up our lives with no money, like a mansion what we can do with a lot of money. You know, like, so and, but that's, that's the thing is like, hopefully, and I totally understand why people do fuck up their lives bad, if it's like that trajectory is like straight up,

you don't really have a time to like be appreciative or understand what's going on or understand living, especially if you're like a lot younger too. And that's why people are f***ing things. It's because, you know, they haven't had to live through any of the sh** they were living through. So hopefully, yeah. We do talk about that kind of a lot.

Well, I hope it's a problem you get to deal with. Uh huh. I really do. I feel like you could where we got some extra cultured be shirts too. A lot where. You could wear one on a... On ABC news. I mean, you could.

I'll do my best. I'll do my best. But I definitely will wear it in public, as well. Yeah, okay, okay. Okay. Let's start with our baby steps, baby. Yeah, yeah. You guys are awesome.

We've never had a podcast, we'll have to do this amount of bleeping. Well, I just got a one, one look from Lauren, our producer. Thank you guys, really appreciate it. And you're, I love you even more now. So, awesome. Thanks. Okay, that does it. I love you even more now. So, it's awesome. Thanks. Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Tohan, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts.

You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.

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