Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 147: Elizabeth Cutler, SoulCycle Co-Founder

Episode Date: August 8, 2018

After having two kids, Elizabeth Cutler had a friend suggest she try spin classes as a way to lose weight and less than a year later, she and her business partner Julie Rice launched SoulCycle. After the pair sold the multimillion-dollar company in 2016, Cutler decided to take her family on sabbatical, pulling her kids out of school so they could take classes online as they traveled all over the world, and all the while she tried to keep a regular morning meditation routine. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

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I'm Dan Harris. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ This week, what is the deal with Soulcycle? Why are they so popular in certain circles? Why is my wife addicted? Do they really speak to everybody and is the sole part of it? What do they mean by that? We're going to talk to one of the founders, a very impressive woman who founded Soulcycle

and built it into a massive brand. This fits into our broadening or pivot of the podcast to conversations that aren't just meditation focused, but Elizabeth Cutler is a meditator, although we don't get to that really, till the back half of the interview, but there's a lot here to listen for, trust me. Before we get to Ms. Cutler, one piece of business and then we're going to take your calls. The piece of business is this has to do with you podcast listener. We are setting up a survey. We want to figure out, I talked about how we've been toying with broadening the focus of the podcast beyond just meditation. So we're trying to get a sense from you, whether you're down with that and whether there are other things we should do better

So if you have the chance you'd be doing us a big service if you went to 10% happier comm slash survey And we want to know what you're looking for out of the show. How can we do things better? Other things you're interested in learning about who else do you want to hear from any other formats? You might enjoy go to the survey you can submit as many ideas as you want over the next couple of weeks and then we'll start operationalizing them. All right, that's the business. Let's do the phone calls. Here's my caveat. You know it. I am not a mental health professional, not a meditation teacher, just a reporter who likes to meditate and Yammer on about it. I have not heard these calls in advance, so I just do my best to answer.

Here's number one. Hi, Dan. This is Alex from Snathomish Washington. Big fan, I appreciate everything that you're doing. I know you give yourself a lot of flak for not doing a good enough job to commit people to meditate with your first book, but that really was what set me on the path about four years ago. So kudos and well done. I really appreciate it. My question is, I'm actually about to be going on my first retreat. It's a seven day retreat. I'm currently meditating between

30 and 45 minutes a day. But just from a never been on retreat and it's basically hoping to get any ideas or advice on how to hold onto those benefits once I leave their retreat and kind of re-ensure real life. So anything you can advise on that, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Right.

First of all, congratulations to you for establishing such a robust habit. And for taking the leap and going on retreat. That's just, I mean, you should just feel really good about that and clearly it's doing a lot for you. So, just want to say that up front. Before we talk about the end of the retreat, you should be thinking, my friend, about bracing yourself for going in.

That is my experience. That's the much more challenging thing than leaving. I've written about this. I've spoken about this, I find meditation retreats to be incredibly useful but also really challenging. That would be a nice way to put it. I often think of the first couple of days of a retreat as like if you're on a plane and the landing gear is not working and you have to crash into the runway and they foam the runway. That's what it feels like to me. You know, you're leaving the busyness and hectic nature of your daily life

and then you're walking into this environment where it's completely silent and all you're doing is sitting and walking and eating in a meditative fashion all day, every day. And it's like a bad case of jet lag. That being said, despite the fact that I've been very open about the many difficulties and torturous aspects of going on retreat, I've gotten a ton out of it. It is just the, you know, again, you don't have, I feel like it's incumbent upon me to say to anybody listening who feels

like they are never going to do a retreat. If that's you, if you feel like I'm never going to do a retreat, I'm feeling slightly and alienated that you're even talking about this. Let me just say that you don't need to do a retreat. You can still be an A plus meditator, no big deal, but if you're into it, I think there's a lot to be said for it because you're just taking the practice to a new level and it's all you're doing. And you just interesting things happen when you up the dosage in that way. You just get an experience of your mind that you will have never had before.

And it might not be awesome. This is, nobody said this process is going to be easy, but it is really worth it, again, in my experience. So to your actual question, I am not an expert in reentry issues. I've done it many times, having come off retreat. And in my experience, I've never really found, this is not gonna say good things about me, but I just usually hop right back into the stream, or the data stream, and you know, check check my emails and learn about what's happening in the

news, etc. etc. So I probably have a lot to learn and probably not much to teach about how to do reentry. But in terms of holding on to the benefits, I think just making sure that you are continuing with your daily practice is a great way to, you know, stay in touch with the thing. And also to, you know, keep a steady frequency of retreats. You know, I kind of was episodic in my retreat attendance. I was going every other year on a seven to ten day retreat. And under some gentle pressure from my meditation teacher and I realized I'm now going to up it to at least once a year. And I think that actually is, you know, I've seen, we had some previous guests, Richie Davidson and Danny Goldman, they wrote a book called Altered Traits where they really surveyed all

of the science around meditation. And one of their takeaways was that the real heavy hitting impact of meditation often happens on retreat. So I think the fact that you're doing this is great. I think if you come out of it and feel like it was worthwhile for you, then I would be looking toward establishing a regular rhythm. And then one last thing about the actual retreat, the one thing I took me a long time to learn what I'm about to say to you, and maybe you can just do it right away, is that I actually didn't fully commit to the retreat experience. I rebelled against it for my first many, many retreats. It was only on my most recent one last year where I really, you know, they tell you do

everything, everything, even quote unquote behind the scenes when you're in your room and nobody's looking, everything at a slow and mindful pace. And so, but I was actually in my room, I was just acting like I was at home and I would go running and stuff like that and during the break periods. And on the last retreat, I stopped all exercise. I literally every step I took, whether I was out of my room or in my room

I was going in slow motion like you're supposed to do it. I was really trying to pay attention and I found that that had a really That was an accelerant to my progress during the retreat And so that would be my big advice rather than what to do on the back end me retreat. And so that would be my big advice rather than what to do on the back end. But again, to those of you who hate the fact that we're even talking about meditation retreats because that you're never going to do that, your life doesn't, wouldn't accommodate it or you just don't want it, you're a one to two to five to ten to fifteen minute a day meditator. And that's it. No shame in that game. It doesn't matter. It's totally, you are getting a lot out of what you're doing and and there's no pressure to to go further

If you want to go further, I think it's great, but it's not a must. All right call number two Hi, Van My name is Lily and I am so grateful for your book. I think has made such an impact on so many people especially me And I listened to your podcast every Wednesday and I really look look forward to it, and hearing all of the different and wonderful people who are being positively impacted by meditation. So my question to you is, I have recently started meditating on sounds. I find that the breath is good for me, but too many thoughts enter. I can't stop them. It's like the floodgates are open, and are open and I really just feel like a failure.

I don't know that much about TM, but I found that just focusing on the sound in my surroundings and not attaching any judgment, which is hard, but just whatever is around me, birds, chirping cars, traffic honking, or silencing, a fan, whatever it is, is really useful and it really helps me to just narrow my focus on that. I don't hear you talking a lot about meditating on sounds and your surroundings. We're going to get your thoughts on it. Thanks so much. And keep doing what you're doing.

It's awesome. Thank you. What you're doing. Awesome. Thank you. What you're doing sounds awesome. I don't talk about meditating on sound that much because it's not a huge emphasis in my meditation that it's not to say I never do it, but I don't feel qualified to talk that much about it. Although I think, again, in my own experience, it's been incredibly valuable what I have done it. And we have a number of meditations on sound in the 10% happier app and my co-author on my last book, which was called Meditation for Figuity Skeptics, Jeff Warren, a great meditation teacher, Jeff Warren, did some great writing within that book about meditating on sounds. And so I don't have much to say to you other than to the extent

that it's meaningful, say that it sounds like you're doing you're doing great, that's great practice. And I think that it's a really important for and I think for everybody listening, there are, you know, the meditation bizarre B-A-Z-A-A-R is, you know, is big and noisy, which is sort of kind of maybe not the right word to use, given that most meditation is pretty quiet. But it's big and noisy and there's a lot of people hockin' lots of wears and lots of

styles and meditation. I think it's good to figure out slowly and methodically what works for you. And you just went through that process and stumbled upon or maybe stumbled would not be the right word, but a found, the thing that is working for you. And I think it sounds like you've handled this really well. So go forth. All right, let's hear from Elizabeth Cutler, who is, as I mentioned, one of the co-founders of Soul Cycle. Soul Cycle, I didn't explain what it is at the top. It is a chain of indoor cycling

studios. And so indoor cycling had been around for a long time, and these guys came around and turned it into a much sheener, her co-founder Julie Rice turned it into a much more boutique, She and her co-founder, Julie Rice, turned it into a much more boutique-high-end experience and they are now all over the country and beyond. They're expensive, which is one of the knocks on them, but when people get into it, they love it. And I have watched this happen with my wife. I actually dragged, and I talk about this with Elizabeth. I dragged my wife, dragged my wife to a soul cycle class almost exactly a

year ago. And she did not want to go. And when we walked in, she whispered in my ear that she was going to kill me. And we walked out and her, it is just amazing to watch a brand so thoroughly colonize an individual with whom I live. She has just, it has changed her life. That is not an overstatement in a great way. And yet, there are people who, there are critics of Soul Cycle. And so we're gonna talk to Elizabeth about some of the critiques of the brand,

but they've done really interesting work. And they've been super successful. And they sold Elizabeth and Julie, both left Soul Cycle and after having sold it to Equinox and so it was a very successful exit. That's the to use the business speak for they made a lot of money. And she's a really interesting person, a really smart and successful person. And she also is a meditator. As I mentioned at the top, we didn't usually start with meditation on this podcast, but in this time we we're really, we dive into sort of what Soul Cycle's

all about in their story of building the company and then we get to meditation toward the end. So I think there's a lot to learn here, and I hope you enjoyed. Here's Elizabeth Cutler. Well, first of all, thank you for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's pleasure to be here. Um, yeah, so I would, my wife is at Soul Cyake right now. She was gonna come, but she was really excited when I heard, which you heard that I was gonna be talking to you, but she decided to do a double class today. Oh my God.

She's not here. Good for her. And she, so the backstory is I have done sort of regular spin classes for many, many years and at Equinox, which I guess owns you guys, and had a bad attitude about SoulCycle. Just thought it was. It happens, it happens.

We don't want it to happen, but it does happen. I had a bad attitude, because I thought it was, first of all, I have lots to say on this, and I know it's supposed to be an interview of you, so I'll get it out. I'm very interested in what you're saying. So I would SoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoulSoul I just started, I didn't like any of it. To me, I'm constitutionally sort of allergic to ooey gooey. And now you're doing a podcast called Denver Center up here. No, I'm going to look.

There are many ways in which I've been able to do that. Life is so surprising. We'll get into many of them. So I had this bad attitude about social circle, except we every summer have spent time in Montauk, which is for the uninitiated on the furthest eastern tip of Long Island, and my wife's family's been going there since she was a kid, and there's a soul cycle there, and I wanted to exercise, and so I went to the soul cycle,

and continue to have a bad attitude about it, because as I'll say later, I was doing it wrong. But my wife who has had trouble actually getting an exercise habit together for a long time, one day I asked her, do you want to come? And she, I was very surprised. She said, yes. And we walk in. And for those who haven't been to Soulcycle before, there's a loud music playing, a lot of

people. And it's like, Well, first you're greeted by lovely human beings, but yes, yes, but for us, we walk in, the people are quite a bit younger than us. They're shopping and then bustle and bustle, and my wife says in my ear, get me out of here. And so I'm thinking, okay, I've just made a big mistake bringing my wife to this thing. This is a happy ending to this.

So we go into class, she's in the back, I'm in the front-ish, and I'm worried the whole time we're in this class that she's going through the stages of grief and she's angry at me and all this stuff. We walk out of there and I'm ready to get eviscerated by my wife and she says, you know what? I really liked it. And that's amazing. She became an incredibly avid soul cyclist. The first time in our 10 or 11 years together

where she's had a really abiding commitment to her own health. And we go together all the time. We know the instructors, we have our favorite instructors, we, it's just a great thing for us to do as a couple. And you know, when we, she comes with me on, she's right now, she's taking a little time off from work so she comes with me on when I travel. And so we're going to LA tomorrow

and we will go to social, we'll sort of, we figure it out in advance where we're gonna go, tomorrow and we will go to social, we'll sort of figure it out in advance where we're going to go, when are we going to go. So it's become a great thing for us. And I think for her, the reason why she liked it was it's dark and that she didn't feel judged and all the positive affirmations from the teacher, which for me are hard to deal with sometimes, sometimes not and increasingly I'm open to them. But for me as a skeptic and a cynic and an addict of irony, it's a little hard sometimes to deal with. It wasn't, it certainly wasn't something

that drew me in. But for her, she finds that really meaningful at times. So anyway, I've said a whole lot, but it's made a big difference for us. That's amazing. It's great. That's a great story. It's really touching to hear about that. I've been a little bit away from the business for the last year or two, and it's lovely to see that people continue to have the experiences that Julie and I set out to provide, and the idea that you can find a safe place to walk into even if you're nervous and you take the risk to do it and you, again, take that risk to get on the bike and to go on a journey with other people but mostly for

yourself. And you can find irony in those rooms and you can find whatever it is that you want to tap into. And that's what those rooms were really designed to provide. It was not only a great time and the physical aspects of it, so you can have this kind of, fantastic workout if you ate a lot of cheesecake the night before. But you can also find a place where you can touch something that matters to you. And I just find like, in particular, around the things that you talk about,

we're all having such this human experience as there's a lot that happens in everyone's life. And people need a secular space to be able to feel whatever that is. And it's, you know, so cycle can be that. It can also be a cheesecake burning factory, which is good. And so it's just wonderful, or you can just get lost in the music, because the music's fantastic. And so anyway, I'd love to hear A, that couples go together, because that's really cool to do with the person that you love. And it's great that she's found something that she's allowed herself to become committed to.

It's such a hard thing with fitness and changing any habit is so difficult that to define something that speaks to you is that's really cool. So thank you for sharing that with me. I've never seen somebody sort of embrace a brand the way she has. I mean, she has all the gear. She just knows about all the instructors. She'll go across town if there's an instructor she likes. It's such a, it's really, as somebody who's personally trying to build a brand around 10% happier, it's instructive on many levels to watch what is it that speaks to her and sort of what are the ways in which she'll engage. And so it also just speaks to you, the success that you've had in making this brand so meaningful

to so many people, and so lucrative, frankly. Well, it's all those things. And I think really the main thing that it comes from is that, you know, Julie and I wanted to create an experience that mattered to people. And if you start with that as a baseline, you know, it matters. If my close model I need to get new clothes. So yes, there's a 10% business that is, you know, the fitness apparel. And when we started the company, there was nobody

curating fitness apparel. I mean, obviously, there are a lot of things. We started in 2006. And that's all in time now. But at the time, it was unusual to see a lot of the things that you see everywhere now. But we really did it as a service as much as anything. Of course, we're business people.

So it needs to be profitable. But the reality around everything that we did was really to be in service of our riders and to be in service of the community. And we really built Soul Cycle as a hospitality company, not a fitness company. And so I think that looking at things through that lens and through that kind of heart,

that's what makes a difference in terms of people's experiences and how they connect with one and other themselves and the brand. It's interesting to say a hospitality company because I get that. I get that now sort of thinking about my experiences at SoulCycle through that lens, that the people at the front desk get to know your name, the teachers get to know you, they call you out and it really does feel different than straight up in personal workout. Yes, well that's the key to it, right?

Is that we wanted to build a company where it's funny, my husband's a banker, and or was a banker, and I think it drove him crazy for me to wake up in the morning and be like, so psyched to go to work. And I loved working at Soul Psych, I loved building that company, I loved the people that we worked with, I loved the teams that we built,

I loved the riders, I loved the whole thing for me, to the people who took care of the studios, everything. And I think we wanted to create that kind of environment for everyone who worked there, so that we felt that if you inspired people to feel that way about their lives and their jobs, then the people who walked through the front door as customers would feel that.

And if we could create that kind of virtue with circle, that we could really change a lot of the way that things had been done. And that's really what we set out to do. And I think the idea of people feeling motivated because the people around them are motivated, it's the very... It can lead to a lot of things that are sort of unexpected, both in how we manage the company and in how we saw the communities grow inside of these various corners.

And everybody would walk into a place and you'd feel like, my soul cycle is diesel cycle and then you go to Los Angeles for the weekend and you walk in there and you feel at home because that soul cycle is diesel cycle to that community but it's also embracing to you. So tell me the creation story. How did this company come about?

Well, it came about a lot of different ways, but mainly the way that it happened for me anyway was I had two children. I lived in Colorado for a long time, and Julie, my business partner, had lived in LA. And when I moved to New York, we had these two kids, and I gained a ton of weight. And one of my best girlfriends was like, I had 60 pounds to lose. And she said, you have to get cardio. If you don't get cardio, you're not going to take that weight off. And she just really said it to me straight, which was great.

Because, you know, there weren't very many people in my life who I thought would really say it to me so straight. And so I've always had the gratitude to her that she just was honest with me. And so she took me to this class and I did the class, like I could do the class. A class of what? A spin class. I just think, excuse me, I went to like a spin class. Indoor cycling.

Indoor cycling class. And I had always been a hiker because I lived in Colorado and I never thought about it as working out because I would just hike with my girlfriends or my friends or my dog or whatever. And by the time you're done, you've talked about a million things or talked about your boyfriend or this thing or that thing or worked out that problem. And by the time I got down, I didn't really think about it as exercise. And so I was really looking once I realized that I needed to get cardio

and I don't like to work out, I don't like exercise. And I was really intimidated by the offerings that were out there. And I didn't know how to use gym equipment and I tried to, I just, I tried a lot of things, I just didn't resonate with me at that time. And so knowing that I could do this one thing, I kind of felt like, well, if I could do it, then really anybody could do it. And then Julie and I met through a teacher that we were both riding with. And we realized that we shared a lot of common values. What were you doing at this time?

We have, we also had spent some time in the summer in Eastern Long Island, and there was a studio a long time ago there. And my friend had taken me to that studio, and Julie was riding here in the city at the Reebok Club. Yeah, that's where I was doing it. Yeah. And then it became Eclon. Right, right.

And anyway, we just weren't finding the classes that in our neighborhoods and at the time that we wanted and the experience that we wanted at SADRA. So we just decided to create it. And so we met in the end of 2005 and we were open in April of 2006. So we did it really quickly. We found our first location on Craigslist. We hired most of the Upper West Adam and Han. Upper West Adam and Han, close to all the subways. It was a former dance studio that was teeny tiny. And we had 33 bikes in there and you know there were days when there was one person riding in a class but we just felt like we were so excited to see the people who would walk through the front door because we

had no signage and kind of had to weave your way back there to finally find the studio and that's really where the hospitality aspect was born because by the time you got to the front desk we really were so grateful and excited to see you. That we wanted you to have a great experience and so we worked hard to provide that. How was the type of spin or indoor cycling that you were teaching different from what was being taught? What was your innovation? Well, the innovation was many fold.

It's never one thing, it's 100 things. But I would say of the few things that are sort of front and center, one was creating fitness careers for fitness professionals. So at the time, most people who worked in fitness would pick up like a class here, a class there, a class here, they didn't have health insurance. They didn't have a lot of stability and they were tired. By the time they got to the class and they were kind of phoning it in and the gyms, you know, in fairness, like this was something that was a profit loss center for them

It's not something they had to provide not something they really I mean that they wanted to provide it But it wasn't something that they really cared about because they had to spend money on it So for us we felt like if we changed the model where this was our focus and it was our profit center We charged per class and did a pay per class model. Then we would be able to pay the instructors better than anybody in the market, provide them health insurance, and as we grew and were profitable, they had clothing allowances and a variety of other things

that we thought would be a value to them and to the people who work for us. And so we really thought about creating fitness careers, which we did. That was one thing. The second thing. They would happier instructors. Happier, more inspired.

They made playlists. They were required to make playlists for each new playlist for each class, like prior to them. Like sometimes instructors would have five playlists and they would just rotate through them. It didn't matter if they were six years old. We just felt like music was something that was music appreciation is something

that's a cornerstone of the work that we developed at SoulCycle and we really wanted people to be able to connect with the music in addition to creating an environment for these instructors to like a freedom with them framework where they could be authentically who they were and not phoning it in. So, you know, they could be ironic and they could be funny and they could be, it could be point it because there could be authentically who they were, not phoning it in. So, you know, they could be ironic,

and they could be funny, and they could be, it could be point it because there could be something going on that everyone's feeling, and you know, for everyone to feel that together can be, is important to acknowledge, and at least we thought. And so we really, you know,

we really worked hard to find a way to help these instructors feel like they had a platform to express themselves, and to connect with the people who were their riders, because that's actually what we wanted to experience. And so in doing that, I think when you do that, combining it with hospitality, obviously,

cloneliness is next to godliness. And just a variety of different things around technology so that at that time, there really wasn't an environment in New York City where you could click on a bike and reserve it and play in your fitness so it became part of your lifestyle. So we were the first one to do that. So, what I would imagine was a website where you could reserve your bike. Exactly. But then this is pre-apps.

That's right. So, to me as a rider, the innovation is really much, the innovations are much more tech, I check on everything you just said, I agree those are innovations as well. But to me as a rider who had a spin career, preceding Soulcycle, the innovations are much more technical, which is that the actual riding experience is different. I was, in my anti-Soul cycle phase, one of my big reasons aside from the sort of soul of it all was that I thought it was too easy, way too easy. And then I realized I was doing it wrong because you guys do rhythm writing. And most soul,

spin classes that I had been taking, every spin class that I had been taking up until then was really about, it was much more regimented where the music is playing, but and it's not completely disconnected from the ride, but you basically told, okay, for the next 30 seconds you're going to sprint and then recover, 30 seconds sprint and then recover, but in Soul Cycle actually the whole time you are riding to the rhythm of whatever song is playing, you may do some sprinting, but when you recover you're recovering back to the bass line of the beat. When I realized that I had been doing it wrong, the rides became much harder because to stay on the rhythm for every song, the whole class, whereas in regular spin class, actually your recovery you can be riding incredibly slow.

That struck me as a big difference. The other one is you actually have on the bike choreography. So it's not just writing the bike, you're actually doing these kind of crunches and what you call tap backs, all of which are sort of abdominal exercises when done correctly.

At first I thought those were a complete nonsense. And I still have some questions about them, but I realized over time that actually, if you do them with the right form, that it is another, in fact, very hard to do on the rhythm. Oh, sure, it's difficult, yes, absolutely. But if you're doing with the right form, you are actually are getting an abdominal workout.

So those strike me as innovations as well, am I on the right? You absolutely are. And of course, I would forget the course to mention the quarterstone of really what Soul Cycle is about, which is a full body workout. I mean, that's the point, right? And riding to the beat of the rhythm. So yes, you'd have to go down.

I'm here to help. This is safe please. As it should be. As it should be. Yes, so that was a big turning point and innovative thing that we, we did feel strong to, it's so funny, it's like second nature, I think that's probably why I, I, Nick, I actually, to mention Adam, sure, Julie, who's here, she would have said it first. But basically, yes, riding to the beat of the rhythm and staying, staying connected with the

music is also like incredible for your brain. So what happens is that, and I'm not a scientist, but there have been many scientists who have come to Soulsl's like home, been writing, told me amazing stories about what happens to your nervous system when you, and especially in a tribal environment, when you know this whole, everybody's doing it together. And we just kind of felt like, it was a more fun way to ride and be,

it really allowed us to develop something that would be a full body workout, which we thought was important because we wanted so cycle would be something that was efficient. People are so busy and they need to be able to check a few different boxes when they come to workout. So, you're a thousand percent right. I mean, the rhythm ride remains to this day to be super critical to the way that people ride.

If you are doing the choreography and you have enough resistance on you, you're really listening to what your instructor says, the ride is very difficult, can be very, very challenging. The great news is that if you are a beginner, you can also dial it back and it's in the dark and you can be in the back and you can figure it out. You don't have to know exactly what you're doing day one. You can find your way and it's not so difficult to find your way once you go for a few times, which I think makes it accessible, which I feel is very important. I mean, we have a significant epidemic going on and everyone needs cardio, like human beings need cardio. So, you know, we just

want people to get cardio and if they can find a place in that room that's safe and be able to do it, it's great. Hey, I'm Aresha, and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wonder E's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newer series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Rue goes out searching for love and acceptance. But the road to success is a rocky one.

Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Rue off course. In our series, Rue Paul Bornnaked, we'll show you how Rue Paul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on Amazon music or the Wondery app. I have so many things to ask him, just trying to figure out like what the order is. So let me just ask that we're going to talk about meditation. We are going to talk about that. Broke in my rule. I feel so badly I would have actually come here. No, no, no, we're going to get some meditation, but we started on this, so I'm going to stick

with it. But so here's my personal question. Here's my personal question, which is, I still think that is I like, no question about it. I like a soul cycle class better than I like a sort of a generic spin class. But I still think, even though I turn my resistance up high, it is easier because of is less sprinting. You don't have the monitor in front of you that's telling you know, most sole cycle, sorry, most spin classes indoor cycling classes actually tell you what your speed and RPM and all

that is. So you've got this number in front of you that actually I find makes me miserable. So I don't like it, but it does motivate me to work harder. You see how many calories you're burning. You don't do any of that, which I love that you don't do. But it's still, and tell me I'm wrong, but I still suspect with no evidence that somehow I'm not working as hard as I was before.

Am I completely wrong? Well, you might not be, but the thing is that's really on you. So, I mean, I know when I work hard at something, and I know when I don't. And you don't need a monitor. I don't need a monitor to tell me if I'm not doing my best. I need to just ask myself, are you really doing your best? And I know what the answer is. So if I want to work harder, that's on me. I can absolutely do that. I don't need somebody to show me that. And I think it is very important actually.

And there is a place for the experience that you're describing and a lot of people like it and they should continue to like it for me and for a lot of people, what is special, one other aspect, you know, like I said, it's number one thing, it's 100 things, but one of those things is that we are so plugged in every minute of every day. It's going to come back to the meditation, right? And so to be able to do your workout where the only person that you are really accountable to in that room is you. And to have that be what, that's my motivation.

Like I'm accountable to me right now for these 45 minutes. I'm not distracted by the incoming dopamine hits that I am getting from my phone or the needs of other people or the, you know, misery that I heard about on my way over here. My time in that room is to work that out so that I leave here stronger, better, smarter, like my best self, and then I can go out and make my life like a more impactful, better thing, better life. And for both me and Julie, we feel very strongly that those kinds of resets are so few and far between now and so hard to access. And honestly, I understand why.

We're all super addicted to our stuff. Like everybody is. But if this is a place where we can unplug and really feel our humanity, that is something that's very powerful and not that easy to access. So just because of all the distractions that are out there. So, that is really why there's no clock in the room, why we do keep it pretty analog,

and we can use the digital stuff around it, of course, but that's why. And the truth is that there are people who need those numbers and need monitor and there's nothing wrong with that. And there are ways for them to do that through wearables and things like that so that they can check what they've done in that class. And then they'll be able to know where their baselines are and things like that if they need that kind of data. Yeah.

I find that removing the data makes me much happier. But I do have this nagging conversation myself of like am I working hard enough and I know there's a resistance knob you can turn up your resistance and I try to be pretty tough on myself about that, but anyway, let's not go too far. Well, I think if you, I think to clean it up though, you know, if you use the data that it's easily accessible whether it's like on a not, there's lots of different. I don't use it so I'm not really the right person to to talk to about it, but I know that a lot of people do. So if you have that, then you just know I did that. And then it's then you don't have to have the nagging. Yeah.

The nagger, the nagger can be quiet. Yeah, then my naggers never quiet. We'll get through that too. I know, I know. So you talked about the tribal aspect, which I think is a really powerful word and actually a powerful impractice too, because again, my previous spin experiences were, you know, you are in a room with other people, but it's not as crowded as most soul cycle. It's not dark. It doesn't, the teacher, it doesn't have the same kind of atmospherics. And it's not trying, most of those classes that I experience personally

weren't trying is hard to create a sort of sense of unity. And I think that tribal aspect, as it turns out, is quite powerful, at least in my experience. And you also mentioned before this sort of secular, I don't know if you use the word secular, but I don't know if you use the word I'm about to use sort of secular, I don't know if you used the word secular, but I don't know if you used the word I'm about to use sort of spirituality. Some of my Jewish friends have called

still cycle spinnigog. I love that. And so talk a little bit about the spiritual aspect of it that it can be quite powerful for many people in that way. And also I think we're at a time, I know we're at a time and also i think we're at a time i know we're at a time the data show we're at a time where organized religion has less of a hold on the average american that it used to

and do you think things like soul cycle and also crossfit and um... many of these other sort of boutique fitness companies are feeling that gap well they're feeling a gap there's no question about that. And for us, it was, I mean, it's called soul cycles. So it was intentional. I think, you know, I don't know, I know that we wanted it to become what it is, but I don't know that we were sure that we were going to be, there was a lot of, you know, we had a lot of hills to climb, you know, pun intended.

a lot of, you know, we had a lot of hills to climb, no pun intended. But I personally, you know, I know Julie feels this way too. We, it's kind of like I was saying before, I think people do need a secular place. And I think that it is true that people, you know, we're tribal. We are, human beings are, They have been for tens of thousands of hundred. I don't know a long time. And it's interesting that at this point, we people are

sort of moving away from more organized religion, but yet still people have a need to find something that's connected with heart or connected with spirit or connected with something that's connected with heart or connected with spirit or connected with something that is bigger than they are. And also, it's nice. What I like about the Soulcycle room is it's dark and it's loud, but it's also quiet, so you can be alone together without having to be really vulnerable. And I cry down the bike tons of times, but it's dark and it's loud so no one can hear me. And it's just kind of nice to be able to feel safe to kind of let that go, whatever it is.

And I just, you know, there's just so much suffering that I just can, I mean, we're all seeing and trying to figure out how to process and just knowing about so much more of what's going on. And so many great things as well. I do think that fitness is filling a role for that in many ways. And I think a lot of it has to do with the teachers and the people who are running these places

and the kind of intention that they said and how they were kind of in an environment that gets cultivated. But it will be really interesting to see what happens going forward because it does seem like we all need something that is secular, but not off-putting. I mean, there's a lot that's interesting. And in some ways, you know, if it is a very easy way to do that because you can opt in or out, however you're feeling that day. Let me ask you a slightly tricky question.

You said earlier, everybody needs cardio. We have this epidemic of, I assume you're referring to the epidemic of obesity. And so I really health crisis. Yeah, it's a health crisis. I think there's no question about it. But do you, I wonder, do you think Soul Cycle is reaching a diverse enough audience?

I mean, it's expensive for one, 30 bucks a class. You most of your, if not all of your outposts are in pretty well-heeled neighborhoods around the country. There was a, I don't know, do you know the comedian Michael Che? He's on Saturday at the end of the live. He's incredibly talented guy. I happened the other day to be watching one of his Netflix specials and he was on a rant about the power of white women.

I can't do it justice, but it was very funny. And he dropped within that rant a soul cycle reference. And it is true, I think, just based on my own unscientific sampling, but quite a large data set, it's mostly white women in the classes. And so have you thought about that? Do you think there's a way? Are there ways to change that? Do you need to change it? Are you thinking about it? Et cetera, et cetera. Well, I can only speak to what we did. I think it continues today. I know that it does. That's the reference to the fact that you got you and Julie left.

that it does. That's the reference to the fact that you got you and Julie left. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like in 2017. 16. We left in 16-15 years ago. So to answer a question directly, we always thought about it. And from the very beginning, we really tried to think about how we can do this. And one of the things that evolved, the best things that happened, I think, are the things that come out of authentically out of communities, right? So what ended up

happening, the cut to is that we started a soul scholarship program, which goes into basically high schools. And, you know, the kids later on in high school, and we make the studios available to them, and a lot of the people, the instructors, teach those classes and there are kids that go on. I mean, we do tons of mentoring inside of there and resume building and like, are there skillsets as well to help these kids? And you know, the amazing thing is that the attendance rate was, you know, in the high 90s percent, like nobody will off these classes. And even if a kid was sick or injured, like they would still come to hear the music and

feel the energy of being in that kind of a room, because they really value being in it. So, you know, look, it is true that in our case in New York City, in the neighborhoods in which we started and, you know, have moved across the country, that we are in convenient neighborhoods for people who are working full time and have busy lives and have disposable income. And it is also true that sometimes you just got to set the weather with people who are going to start something, start people changing their habits. So we have looked at, so anyway, we do that program, which is a fantastic program,

and it has a huge amount of impact. I don't have any statistics on it, but I know from having participated in it, and having been a mentor in it, that it has been a very touching actually for me to be involved with, probably just as much or more, than with those kids. So I think we really try to make things as accessible as we can while still operating business.

I've done this interview backwards because I always start with meditation, but just because I'm geeking out because I'm sitting face to face with a person who invented the brand that has become a big part of our family's life, I started talking about social cycle, but let me now finally get to meditation. So you've been doing it for a while. How and why did you start? Um, I, it's so funny because, um, meditation's been in part of my life for a long time, actually, and not, not consistently. So I have not a lifelong meditator, although at times I've really aspired to that. But I got introduced to it in high school. And then when I was in college, I did a study abroad program that happened to be a Buddhist studies

program that happened to be in a monastery. Where? In India, in Bulgaria, India. Wow, you did that program? Yes, I did. We've had previous guests who've been in that program. Oh, I did. We've had previous guests who've been in that program. Oh, you have? Vote guy, India, a place where the Buddha got enlightened. And now, like, a sort of a Buddhist mecca of sorts, where all the different schools of Buddhism from many different countries come and set up shop. And so David Gellis was a writer for the New York Times, business writer for the New York Times, and has written about meditation, and is also a personal friend of mine, did that program and got really into meditation as a

consequence. So that's amazing that you did that for my idea. I haven't met very many people who've done that program. That's, of course, like you would find them. And so I did that in college, and I loved that program. I learned a lot about the different styles and traditions and it really impacted me. And then it was really interesting. I came back from that trip and my aunt's father had said to me, why are you so interested in Buddhism? Buddhism is for old people. You're supposed to go and fall in love and be crazy and do all these things. And it was funny because I loved the program that I did, but it was really hard.

It's really hard to sit and meditate for 45 minutes and to do these many day retreats. And I've really struggled. It was did not come naturally or easily to me. And I just thought that was a really funny comment. He said, it's really for old people who need to calm their mind. And it's so funny because when we were doing, when we were building the business, Julian and I both found when we were building the business, Julie and I both found our meditation on the bike, we would find those three minutes of stillness inside of all the noise and chaos of all these spinning wheels

and this crazy, re-on-a-music, or whoever we were playing that day, probably the hip hop we were finding like our peaceful moment, which is funny. And we would always find that quiet to it, and I think a lot of people do. And so that really became our meditation. But I felt like I needed more meditation just because

of the training that I had had. And I kind of missed it. And also things were so busy. And so we were scheduled on the 20 minutes. We were always just, there was always so much going on. I really felt a draw to that that I started getting back into it. And I thought it would be fun, fun, might be the wrong word, but I actually did think it would be fine to start all of our...

So we decided we were going to have meetings once a month. And as a company crew, we wanted everybody to stay connected. And so we would do these group meetings, these teleconference meetings, with all the different studios and studio managers, and all over the country, all at the same time, everybody together. And we would start the meeting with a three minute meditation.

So everybody, whether you were in Dallas, or whether you're in Chicago, or Los Angeles, or New York, or wherever you were, everybody would start the meeting. Obviously, we'd said the agenda and all that and then we would meditate for three minutes. I used to joke that it was the longest three minutes of the month because it felt like it went on forever. I was so self-conscious that I was making all these hundreds of people sit or asking, not

making, well, kind of making, actually, sit in silence. But I always noticed after the three minutes were up that things were just at a different, there was a different vibration that happened as a result. If you kind of looked at how things felt before we started and then where we finished. And I just, I loved that. And it's funny. I've talked to a bunch of friends of mine who own companies, CEOs, and things, and a couple of people have started using those in their meetings. I think that's pretty cool.

What about your personal practice? You talked about inconsistency, which by the way is super-common. I actually don't think something to get to self-conscious about. But are you at a moment now where you have a regular practice? Yes, I am. Thank God. I love it. I have been sitting in the morning and what is your practice when you say you sit in the

morning? What is it? Well, it's interesting. I sit for 22 minutes and I said a timer on my iPhone and I need to find a better gone because it's really not a good one And what do you do in your mind for those 22? I breathe. I You know, it's funny. I started When I got back into it, I started with headspace. I really like what Andy's doing Andy putticom headspace app. Love them, love that. Love it. Future guest on this podcasting,

and I've been emailing you. Oh, good, good. Yeah, he's lovely. And what I really love about it is it's super accessible. And I was looking for some tools to share with our team and really, really like that. And had met him and just really loved him. So started with that.

Really liked it. I liked the idea of starting with 10 minutes and then slowly increasing it because it's hard to sit for 20 minutes. At least I found it was without some practice. So I started with that and then I just realized that I just needed a timer. And what I like to do is just to watch my breath and sometimes I'll repeat some kind of sound, whether it's some kind of home or some kind of sound that comes to mind. But mainly, it's funny, one of my friends, Jai Ashmore, who has opened Dorma, I did that

program in India with her and she is a very well-known meditation instructor. She teaches a lot in Europe and in India she's not as well-known in this country, but she's somewhat known. She's fantastic and amazing. She'd be a very interesting person to have on your podcast. But anyway, she talks about the space behind the thoughts. And I love that. And I realized actually that when I find that space behind the thoughts that I really just sink into a place that just it feels really good. And my brain feels really happy. And that's kind of my, that's my hook.

And why I want to continue to do it on a daily basis and realizing also the the brain changes that it can affect. So there's also a woman named Sarah Gottfried. She's written a bunch of books, the hormone cure, a book called Younger, which's written probably four or five books. And she's a functional medicine specialist and she does two lives in Berkeley. And I met her at a conference and she was just talking to me about

when you get into the brain waves and what it actually does for your brain. And it's one of those things where, you know, when people say things, you know, they don't need to say twice. And she was talking about that place, which I realized is the place behind the thoughts. And when I started to like feel that again, after all these years, I realized like, that's where where I need to be.

And it's also really great for your brain. And I want my brain to be healthy for as long as it possibly can. Yeah, the place behind the thoughts, John, cabins in the famous meditation teacher talks I want my brain to be healthy for as long as it possibly can. Yeah, the place behind the thoughts, John Kabat's in the famous meditation teacher talks about the mind as a waterfall. I use this in LG a lot too. So if you think about the water as our non-stop stream of consciousness, mostly me, me, me thoughts.

The space behind the thoughts is otherwise known as mindfulness is like the crevice in the rock face behind the waterfall that allows you to kind of step out of that stream and to view all of your thoughts with some non-judgmental remove so that they don't own you. And that is the fruit of mindfulness meditation, which is the ability to see your thoughts as just thoughts, not necessarily fact. And so you're describing it beautifully. What would you say the impact on your data life has been of having a more abiding practice? Well, tell you what's really interesting is I notice when I don't do it, how I don't

feel well. And I didn't expect that. We've been traveling quite a bit and I find it hard sometimes with travel to sit and I realize that I got not a practice and I just like, I make time for social media. And as soon as I realize that I'm making time for social media, I just put my phone away, set the timer so that I can sit. And it allows me just kind of like, anything that was there before will still be there when I get back to it.

So I've really realized that it does just how better I do feel and how grateful I am for that and how easy it is because it's just so accessible if you just make the time. That's right. And I often say to people that because people worry a lot about falling off the wagon and I get it. But one of the benefits of falling off the wagon is you can see more clearly the benefits of meditating.

Your inner weather becomes a lot more obnoxious, and just to be able to see that can be quite powerful. Tell me a little bit about your life today. You left the company in 2016. Why and what are you doing now? Well, I, it's okay. So Julie and I ran the company for 10, 11 years and we had taken a partner who was a majority partner and they wanted to make one of us. Yeah.

And they, a bunch of things happen and they wanted to buy most of the rest of the company. And so we stayed for a year to help, you know, make that as that as good for them as possible and then it became time for us to go. So. That must be so weird. I mean, I started a company, a co-founder to a company two years ago, which actually is in competition with Andy,

we teach meditation through an app and I can't, it's called 10% App Year, I can't imagine at some point stepping away from my baby. Yeah. No, I didn't realize that it was a baby. When we sold the majority of it, people kept on saying like, it's not a child. You have your children. And then, obviously, I've never built something before because clearly this is a very big

child and a very important child and a love child with Julie. And so it was hard. It was super hard. Oh my god, it was really, really hard for both of us in different ways, but definitely hard. But it's funny how things work out. It ended up having a lot of gratitude for the timing around it. Both of my parents were sick last year. My dad actually passed away a year ago today. Sure. And it's just, it's like really interesting how I would never have really been able to have the space or time to have attended to them in the way that I really needed to if I had been needing to take care of companies

and employees and shareholders and that. So it's so funny how it just worked out so beautifully for me personally. And then for Julie, like, she's like a shark that has to swim or she'll die. Like, we were just that we, I'll get to that in a second, but anyway, so she went back and is doing some amazing work at WeWork and is really enjoying the community, is building some cool things that she loves to build stuff we both do. But I needed to attend to some personal stuff and she's been working and thriving and getting to do things that she should be doing. So it's actually oddly great how things have worked out. We

miss ill cycle every day. It's a piece of our heart. You are still on the board? No. So if you walk into a, do you still go to a ill cycle? Well this is the thing. I'm back in town. I took my family on a family, we decided to go on a family sabbatical. And I got back yesterday. And so we've been gone for six months, we've been gone. And we're going to go away for a little bit more. But I just kind of felt like I'm going to take my kids out to school.

They're going to go to school online. We're going to, you know, try some different things. We've been traveling. We, I lived in Colorado for a long time, so we went back to Colorado and rooted our self there. I joined a curling team. I'm a terrible curler, but I had a great time doing it. And we skied, but the snow conditions were fine, but worse can snow conditions in 50

years, but we were entirely right. The people there are amazing, they they made the ski mountain So fantastic in spite of the conditions so we skied a lot and We like randomly traveled like one day my husband said I Want to go skiing in Japan and I'm more I'm checking my five weather apps and there's gonna be powder there next Friday Let's go. This is what happens when you sell a company. Right. And when you have miles, exactly. No, we certainly have some money, which is extremely helpful.

But we also just made the time and the space to do it and took the risk to have a kid in high school. Like most people won't take the sophomore in high school out of school. But they both been going to school online and kind of living differently. We just got back from them doing a theater program and the Galapagos and living with these amazing families

and this really modest community and putting on this crazy theatrical performance of with tons of props and just living things a little bit differently. So it's been fantastic. I've had the best time. I thought everybody else is gonna have a better time than I did, but I've had the best time. I thought everybody else is going to have a better time than I did, but I definitely have the best time.

So you haven't done soul-cycle in that whole time? No, I haven't. I've been having to train myself, which is really interesting, because having listened to all those incredibly talented, beautiful people for all those years, like speak to me and inspire me and motivate me, I had to listen to their voices or my own voice to get myself to do things every day and I did it and it was it was great and I'm not saying I was good as they are, but I did it. So you were actually talking on your own? I wasn't biking because I didn't have access to a bike, but I was doing a bunch of other things and I think that's something that Julie talks about a lot, that once your inner coach gets into your own head, kind of like your wife, right? Like once you find that place where you commit to something, you get into the practice of

doing it, even if you're, you might really miss the physical activity, but you can turn that into something else, whether it's a hike or a run or a swim or whatever, or a boxing or whatever it is, like whatever you have access to, you can turn that thing that you have access to into the coach that you heard at SoulCycle. I'm sensitive to your time because I, because we've already been going for almost an hour, and you probably have other things to do,

but let me just ask one last question. You clearly have an incredible amount of success with building a business. This boutique fitness, what do you think about boutique meditation? Walk at these meditation drop-in spots that are popping up in New York, in Miami, in LA, in Austin, Texas. Do you see a business there? I think that it proves that there's a business there if people are doing it. I don't know how big a business it is. I love what Susie's doing in LA with unplugged CZLF Schwartz. Fantastic. Mindful has incredible programming here. And those are the only two that I'm really aware of.

I, for me personally, I like the convenience of being able to meditate on my own. I don't need to be meditating in community. I am not accountable. Now I am. But before we started Soul Cycle, I was not an accountable enough human being to be able to do fitness on my own. Absolutely not. No way. It could not happen to do fitness on my own. Absolutely not. No way.

It could not happen like zero chance, like less than zero. So I really needed a community to plug into that I'd signed up for and that I was accountable to, that I could change my habits. Now that I did that for so many years, I'm better at it. I'm not saying I'm as good as going to those classes, but I definitely have changed my habits. And I don't know what it's going to take for people to meditate. I really don't. I think that remains to be seen. What's next for you? Oh my gosh. I have been having a great time helping people start companies and helping them get off the ground. I've been working with a

lot of seed A and B, A series. This is the term that people use for fundraising. I didn't know that until recently because we self-funded. But, you know, I've just been helping companies and been working with CEOs to just help them kind of problem solve and get through stuff that's, you know, bogging them down, trying to find out ways to just help everybody fly and make these things happen faster and smarter and stronger. And I've really loved it, I've been really enjoying it, it's been super fun, and I get to come and do podcasts

with amazing people like you, so things are good. Thank you very much for doing this, really appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, thank you so much for having me down. It was great to be here. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast, if you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe, rate us. Thank you so much for having me down. It was great to be here. Efron Josh Tohan and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday.

Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

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