Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 15: Gretchen Rubin (Our Long-Lost Pilot Episode)

Episode Date: May 13, 2016

In our pilot episode, which we recorded back in January before we moved into a fancy radio studio and had any clue what we were doing (this part hasn't changed much), Dan invited author and speaker Gretchen Rubin over to his New York City apartment to talk mindfulness, how to break bad habits and find better routines. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth? What really matters in the pursuit of a life well lived? These are the questions award-winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the Top Ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week, Jonathan sits down with world renowned thinkers and doers, people like Glenn and Doyle, Adam Grant,

Young Pueblo, Jonathan Height, and hundreds more. Start listening right now. Look for the Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app. So this time we're doing something a little different. We recorded this podcast that you're about to hear. It was actually our pilot episode with Gretchen Rubin, who's the author of a bunch of best-selling books, including the Happiness Project and also Better Than Before. We recorded this as a bit of an experiment before the podcast was really officially up and running because we wanted to see if there was any there there. So what you're about to hear is that we kind of messed up. The audio quality is actually sub-optimal, but it's good enough for you to, it's not

going to be annoying to listen to, but it's just not as good as we wanted it to be. So we initially posted it and then pulled it down because the audio quality wasn't awesome. But Gretchen is really smart and just brimming with practical solutions to make your life better. So we wanted to post it again, because I think I think you're going to enjoy it. The one thing, the one sort of exception to the rule of this podcast is that she doesn't really meditate. You'll hear me nag her a little bit about that. But she's amazing and a good friend and have been an un-stinting supporter of lots of the weird little projects on which I've embarked in recent years, so enjoy Gretchen.

From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. This is the inaugural experimental version of the 10% happier podcast slash podcast slash live streaming show, which is a long way of saying we have no idea what we're doing. Really happy that my first guest is Gretchen Rubin. Thank you very much for doing this. I'm very happy to be here. You've been like irrationally supportive of me. This whole process, before I wrote the book, after I wrote the book and since then, so that's a great question. I'm a huge fan of 10% happier.

I think it's a fantastic book. And I've heard from so many people who don't realize that I know you how much they like it. They're like, you know, there's this book. You really ought to read 10% and I'm like, yeah, I know about that book. That's a mate. Thank you.

I appreciate that. So let me just tell everybody who you are. Gretchen has written a number of fantastic books. The two that I think people are most familiar with is one is the happiest project which came out in 2010, I believe. And that is about how you kind of took all the science around happiness and road tested it in your own life.

Exactly. And then the more recent book which came out, I believe in 2015. Yes. You just called Better Than Before and it's about habits and how to break bad ones and establish new ones. So I have a million questions for you. Let me just start with an elegant term you use at the beginning of the book, which is you

say that habits are the invisible architecture of our daily lives. What do you mean by that? Well, it's interesting. Research shows that about 40% of what we do every day is shaped by our habits. And so they're all around us. They're shaping everything that we do. And so if we have habits that work for us, we're much more likely to be happier, healthier,

more productive. If those habits aren't working for us, then this is going to be a much bigger challenge. I come from the whole mindfulness and meditation world. I can't believe that says in the book. Anyway, I do come from the meditation world. in that world the word habitual is a dirty word. So what you don't think habits are bad, so how do you square that? No, it's interesting because I've heard that from a lot of people because habits are

mindless. That is why they are freeing, that is why they are energizing. But I think that these two ideas, mindfulness and mindlessness actually go together because what you want to do is mindfully shape your habits. You know, you don't want, because when they creep in accidentally, that's when you can get into trouble. But when you mindfully shape a habit that it can be this great engine for change. But the thing about habits is that they're freeing and energizing because we don't have to make decisions, we don't have to use our self-control. So you can mindfully be brushing your teeth, but you're not deciding, should I brush my teeth?

Oh, I brush my teeth yesterday. Maybe I should get myself off the hook today. Oh, I'm going to brush my teeth tomorrow and starting this month, I'm so good about brushing my teeth. So I don't have to start until Monday. You don't get into that. You just do it. And so I think that there really is a place for habits and even like with your meditating. I mean, you didn't decide every single day, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do this, I'm going to commit to this. It's part of my life now. If every single day you were like, so I do it now, so I do it later. You know, you can exhaust yourself and never get around to actually doing the thing that you are thinking that you want to do.

You say in the book is another phrase I really like that you are mindfully harnessing the power of mindlessness. Yes, exactly. So you're choosing very deliberately what you want to do and then you kind of automate the process so you're not eating up all of your mental energy. Exactly. It's like putting that on automatic pilots. So you're not using a lot of energy to make it happen.

I want to talk about establishing good habits and breaking bad habits. But you sort of do a taxonomy in the book that I think is important to get into first. You talk about the four tendencies I believe is a term. So we don't all establish or break habits in the same way. So these categories are great because you will, anybody who hears them will automatically put themselves in one of the bucket. Yeah.

So walk me through the four buckets. So it has to do with how a person meets a response to the idea of an expectation. So we all have outer expectations, like a work deadline, or an inner expectation, like I want to start meditating every day. So an appolder is someone who readily meets outer and interact. It's a folder questioner of lighter and rebel are the for the for tendencies. So appolders readily meet outer and inner alike.

Which is what you are. That's what I am. So we readily meet a work deadline. We readily keep a New Year's resolution without much fuss. So are you a goodie to choose when you're a kid? 100%. 100%. So the archetypal appolder, Hermione Granger. OK. So then you and I would not have got that. OK. No, but we all get to get, you know, we all mix.

There aren't that many appolders. So many friends who are not appolders. Next are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they're convinced it makes sense. So they hate anything inefficient or arbitrary or irrational. Their first question is, why would I listen to you anyway? So they can do anything if they buy into it.

They make everything into an inner expectation. They won't do it just because you tell them to, but if they buy into it, they will do it effortlessly. But there are two types of questioners I learned from your book. Yeah. So some questioners are pretty easy to convince them to uphold. Like my husband's like that. He readily accepts sort of societal rules.

And some questioners are question expectations so much. They almost look like rebels. For instance, many questioners question traffic regulations. They say things like, well, I think it's arbitrary. They're all supposed to drive 65 miles an hour. I'm a really good driver. So I think I should be able to drive whatever I think is safe. And I'm like, well, good luck with that,

because that's not how traffic regulations work. But for a questioner, it seems arbitrary. Drives them crazy. So I guess I would be a questioner with a upholder leaning. Which you describe as like being like a Leo with a Virgo right? Exactly, exactly, exactly. And then there's, so you mentioned rebels. I think it's pretty obvious what that is.

So Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want, if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And they don't even want to tell themselves what to do. So like for them, unlike other people, they wouldn't want to say like, oh, every day at 7 a.m., I'm going to meditate. Maybe, they might want to choose every single time. So what do I do to make sure that my child is not a rebel? Well, rebels is great. There's a lot of strengths to being a rebel.

Really? But it is hard to be the parent of a rebel child. I've heard from many people asking for advice about how to be the parent of a rebel. Because the fact is you can't tell them what to do. They have to do what they choose to do. Do you have to get them like a menu of options? Many of options helps, and then you just remind them, well, this is what you want. Like a friend of mine had a child who did want to practice violin, and finally she was like,

and she kept nagging him and reminding him and doing star charts and all that stuff, and it wasn't working. And I was like, he's a rebel. Tell him, he can do what he wants to do, but if not, you're not going to pay for lessons. Because you're not going to pay for it if he's not going to do it.

If he's not going to practice. And so she said to him, you say you want to practice violin, you're not going to pay for lessons. Because you're not going to pay for it if you're not going to do it. If you're not going to practice. And she said to him, you say you want to practice violin. You're not going to get a good violin if you don't practice. You know that's true. So up to you, you tell me what you want to do. And he was like, OK, and then he practices. Because he wants to play the violin. But when she was telling him to do it,

he had to resist to show, well, you're not the boss of me. And then the fourth category is a bliger. And that's the biggest tendency. That's the one that most people fit into. Really? Yes. I would have thought it was questioner. Questioner is second largest. Overwhelmingly people are questioners or bliders. A pullter and rubble are like the extreme tendencies. They're small. Overwhelmingly people are questioners or bliders. A blider is readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So like a friend of mine told me, well, the weird thing about me is I really want to exercise.

And when I was in high school, I was on the track team, and I never mistracked practice. So why can't I go running now? Well, when she had a team and a coach waiting for her, she had no trouble going. But it was only her own inner expectation than she struggled. And so, in a lot of people are like that,

like they'll go through, they'll meet all the expectations that others have for them. But then they're frustrated because they can't meet their expectations for themselves. So, I would imagine the most important thing when you're trying to figure out how to make or break a habit is to figure out which bucket you're in first.

Yeah, that's really helpful because then, because it will help you figure out how to push the buttons on yourself. Lori, you know, it's really helpful because then because it will help you figure out how to push the buttons on yourself Or you know, it's even more fun is to try to change someone else's habit And they can really help you if you're trying to understand that like doctors often I've been hearing from a lot of doctors saying now that I understand the foretensies I can kind of tailor my advice Because selling somebody like someone's a type 2 diabetic and you're trying to get them to do certain things

You might behave very differently when you're talking to a type two diabetic and you're trying to get them to do certain things, you might behave very differently when you're talking to a questioner than when you're talking to a rebel. But I was, this was not on my little list of questions. I kind of, let's go off-road. We're going off-road here. But what, I would imagine trying to change other people's habits, like, especially with a spouse,

is dangerous territory. No, it is, it is. I know you try to do it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And in my hat, and from the habit from the happiness project, one of the deep principles that I can't believe in is the only person that we can change is ourselves. But it is also true that when we change others can change.

And when we change, it relationships changes. And so if I am speaking in a way that I think is going to resonate more deeply with you, then I can help you. So it's not about me actually forcing you to make a change. It's me understanding how to set up a situation in order to make it possible for you to make that change yourself. Because sometimes we do things unwittingly

because we don't understand how other people might be different from us. And so the kind of thing that would work with us isn't going to work with them. And so we're just not helpful. My wife doesn't meditate. Okay. There you go.

And I, there was a cartoon in New Yorker not long ago. It had two women having lunch and one of them says the other, I've been gluten free for a week and I'm already annoying. And I just keep that in mind. Like, I can't, I know if I cross-lethized her, she will never do it. Yeah, that's right. So I don't say anything.

That's right. Actually, when I- Well, is she a questioner? I don't know what she is. OK. Because one thing about questioners I've noticed is like, like, a lot of my family's questioners is that if they just see you succeeding with something,

like, I'm into a high intensity weight training. And my father-in-law kind of paid no attention, paid no attention, paid no attention. And then one day, he's like, I'm into a high-intensity weight training. And my father-in-law kind of paid no attention, paid no attention, paid no attention. And then one day he's like, I'm going. And now he's been basically going ever since. And I was always talking in a very annoying way about how much I love doing it. But it was like he had to make up his mind for himself

that this was worth doing. And then once he did, he did it. So it could be that way with your wife. One day, she'll just be like, you know what? I've seen enough. I'm convinced, I'll try it. And that's your example is more persuasive than your blood drain. Black drain, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think she may be in a bliger, actually. Why I think about it. Well, she could be having a bliger rebellion. Yeah, I think that's what I, and this is, well, I'll let you talk about it. But you talk about this, and this is a specific thing that happens with a blighter. So a blighter, they get frustrated by the fact

that they're meeting other people's expectations, but they're not meeting their expectations for themselves. And they will get in this, they have this very striking pattern where they will meet, meet, meet an expectation, and then suddenly, kind of without warning, they will snap and be like, this I will not do. And sometimes it's really a small symbolic and kind of funny thing.

Like it's weird how many obligers have emailed me to tell me that they were so annoyed because a coworker told them was like nudging them for being late to work, that they will deliberately sit in their cars for five or 10 minutes to be late, deliberately late. Okay, that's a pleasure of valiant. But sometimes it can be huge and explosive.

Like quitting a job without any kind of opportunity. Like, we need to make this right or blowing up a relationship. Like, I've had enough of you. I can't take it anymore. And sometimes it will find its plate, and it's often things having to do with like health, which I think is it's totally within the control of the obliter. They're like, I'm meeting, meeting, meeting expectations. But this thing, I will not do.

I will not go to the gym. You cannot maybe go to the gym. And it could be that your wife, if she's an obligator, has sort of keyed in on this, is like, I'm doing so much this, I will not do. It's possible. It's like my last stand. But I will say I've never pressured her.

Right. Which is I think the only reason why it's even a live possibility at this point. Right. Because I have to ever pressured her, which she will be off the table. Right. So I want to ask you about the habit that I want to break, which is sugar.

Yeah. Oh, this is a true story. I quit sugar. I know you did. This is what I want to hear. But in the not too distant past, I ate one night sitting right here watching TV with my wife, which is our Sunday night ritual. I ate so many Oreos.

Actually, there were whole foods Oreos that I woke up in the middle of the night and puked. Ah! Fruit story. Yeah, so I have problem. Now, let me read you eating them mindlessly, like just whatever you like. Oh, my gosh, these are so good, I can't stop.

No, the former. Okay, so it's just like... That's my jam is mindlessly, I like that. So do you want to quit sugar altogether? I would, I love sugar, it's like really my only remaining vice since I quit doing drugs 10 years ago in a prank. I really don't have any real vices.

So I love sugar, but I feel it, it's, there's a real addictive thought loop going on around because I usually restrict myself to one day a week but I'm like looking forward to it kind of planning out because everyone I'm going to have it feels kind of gross. Right, right, feels like a chain. So do you, would you describe yourself as and I think you are like an all or nothing kind of person? Like it's not that hard to say no but once you start you can't stop. That's exactly I can I have abstained for a long period of time but when I start I can't stop right okay so one of one of the things that I

talk about on the book is the difference between abstainers and moderators when it comes to facing a strong temptation and a lot will often it has to do with food and I'd be sure it might be something like chips or it can even be something like world of warcraft or like my sister had to quit doing candy crush because it was actually interfering with her career. So how do you face a strong temptation? So an imative standard, so we're alike in this way. It's easier to have none.

It's easier to give something of all together than to indulge in moderation. And moderators, on the other hand, they get kind of crazy, and they feel sort of panicky if they're told they can never have something. And those are the people who keep the you know the bar of Toblerone chocolate in their desk drawer and then like what's a day or every other day they have one square and I'm like my whole day would be yeah this

talk thinking about it so I would argue that even once a week is enough to keep that craving hitting because you're always it's always coming up on the horizon and then that always opens up the possibility, well, it's my birthday or I'm on vacation or you know, and it might be that it would just be, and what I found because I had an tremendous week to, too. When I just said, I don't eat sugar at all, it just, that whole noise in my head that was super boring, just went dead. And so I walk into a store and they have a big bowl of free candy. Do I eat it? No, I don't because I don't eat sugar. Oh, it's my birthday and they're serving me dessert for free because the restaurant gives me free dessert. Do I eat it? No, I don't. Because I don't eat sugar. So what you can do,

I don't think it's, I don't think it's helpful to have like once a week because then it's always coming up on the horizon. But what you can do is you can say something like, okay, well, it's going to be our anniversary. And so I'm really looking forward to it. It's like, I'm expecting that I'm gonna eat sugar. I'm gonna really, really relish it. This is you, did you? No, I have to say, I do not do it. For me, it's easier to have none.

So I really am the killjoy who will not have and you like make me a cake. Like, for me personally, I'm like, sorry, I don't eat sugar. I'm rare, I'm rare. Very few people abstain the way that I do. But what most people do is that they'll say like oh this is a special occasion I'm going to look forward to it. Where people really get in trouble I think it's like the once a week thing or like you know or after the gym which is the dumbest way to do it. Or on the spot like oh yeah I'm not eating sugar but here we are, and it's the specialty of the house,

Jeremy Sue, I have to have it. And so you're doing it on the fly, and so you feel out of control of yourself. Whereas if you're saying, like, I'm looking forward to it, it's on the calendar, it's gonna be great. And then, so one question is, do you look back on it with pleasure? Do you look back on those Oreos with pleasure? Not the way they came up. No, no, no. Going down, yes, otherwise, you know.

So it's like, if you're like, oh, it was a wonderful addition. Like, oh, Christmas dinner was so amazing. Then that's like a pleasure. It's when it feels out of control. No, it's like directly into a shame's part. No, and it's also just boring to think about it. Yes. Oh, you know, see moderators, it's like, for them,

they have to know they can have a little, and then they can have, they have a little than they're satisfied. And also, like, do you really you really care like a lot of times people are like oh, but it's so sad They think what life without sugar. How sad is it? It's pretty sad to me really. Why well I have a I don't know Why is it sad? I think I associate it with like freedom Oh, okay talk about that because I feel like Sunday night is my I'm so disciplined all the time Yeah, I meditate I exercise that too. I work really hard. Okay, okay, so my boss is watching I work super hard Okay, so maybe you need another treat. I think you want to give yourself a treat

But this is the only treat that you found. What is another treat? Could you buy yourself new music? Don't you? Don't you want to tell me that every week you buy yourself new music? I do buy myself That's a great treat. OK, so what's something that can be your Sunday night treat? What would be something? TV. Oh, could be.

You already give yourself that treat. So the thing about the sugar as it goes with the TV. So what's another treat? Maybe you want a treat that can go on with that. Yes, I got to think about that. What would be a treat? Because what you're saying is I need, and I think, and- French fries.

French fries. OK, but maybe that's OK. Like, you can have one word or French fries. It's so good about it. And it doesn't trigger that whole thing. It triggers a little bit, but it's not like, it's not a cake. Right.

Yes. Well, because in better than before, I talk about the strategy of treats. Like, it's important to give ourselves treats, because we're like cell phones that need a charge. If you don't give yourself enough treats, that's when you start getting into this. I need it, I want it, I have to have so many areas that I'm going to throw up.

You know, it's like you need to give yourself healthy treats. So you have that feeling of like when you give more to yourself, you can ask more from yourself and you're asking a lot from yourself and you feel like I need to bring myself back into the equilibrium. I need a treat to give myself energy. So you just mindfully want to shape that treat and French fries maybe that's the equilibrium. I needed treat to give myself energy. So you just mindfully want to shape that treat. And French fries maybe that's the thing. Like what's the restaurant you can order in? The best French fries in New York City. Eat them, enjoy them, it'll be a delicious

treat, and it won't set off that sugar trigger that is so painful. I like that a lot. I'm curious about your own personal habits, because I had lunch with you not too long ago before your book came out and you were really disciplined about what you eat and you actually mentioned that you have changed the way you eat. I think, in part, as a consequence, what you learned in doing the book. Yes, well, it was actually before the book, but I didn't really understand what had happened to me until I wrote the book because this weird transformation had kind of fallen on me. I was on vacation and I read Gary Tobs' book,

Why We Get Fat, and it convinced me to go low carb. Sorry, you were gluten free, or? Oh, I'm way past gluten free. Yeah, I really get a very low carb diet. I get a little more low carb than Gary Tobs does. But everyone needs a hobby. And this for me works. I'm not saying this is the way everybody would want to eat.

But I do. I do avoid cars. And the rest of your life, you have resigned yourself to not having the car man hours. And I'm not. But it's not resigned myself. I really revel in it. And I'm fortunate in that I'm the kind of person

who basically the same food all the time. So that's fine for me. So I'm not a foodie who feels like a lot of regret about giving things up because I was like very basic food. But I don't feel resigned. I feel free. I feel, I love it. I love eating this way because I'm not hungry.

I used to be so hungry the way that I ate. Food is really rich and satisfying. And I just, you know, I feel much healthier. I lost my to weight. I didn't intend to, but that's what happened. You didn't need to. I didn't need to, but I was interested in this. It's interesting.

I was interested in the book, because my sister is a type one diabetic. And so if you look at the book, it's all about insulin. And so without tobs, it's about why we get fat. So when I was in the bookstore, I was slipping through it. I was like, it saw that it was all about insulin. And that was what got me intrigued,

because if you're a diabetic and especially type one diabetic it's like insulin is you know the thing that saves your life. So I wanted to learn more about it and then but so and then better than before I described what happened which is the strategy of the lightning bolt which is when you have a new piece of information or you have some experience and all of a sudden your habits change almost effortlessly because you just have some new belief. And so your habits fall in line. And so when my thoughts about nutrition changed,

because with eating habits, they're like, do these substitutions like part skin, mozzarella, or that it would have to be incremental change. It's such a ubiquitous part you know, part of our lives. Like how could you change it overnight, effortlessly? And yet that's what happened to me. It just happened. Yeah, I was just like overnight.

Well, it was funny. We were on vacation with my in-laws. And so we were staying in this, you know, like in a hotel. And so like the next day when I went out to the breakfast buffet, it's like, I got the opposite of what I had gotten for like the last hundred years. And I was like scrambled eggs and bacon. All right. Let's see if this is work. This is this is Gary Topps. So this is what I should be eating. Let's see what happens. Yeah.

And it's like in data point of one, like I'll just experiment on myself. Like let's see what happens. But as you say, so hearing about people's personal transformation can often be more powerful for these studies. But don't you find that to be true with yourself? Like people are more hearing your experience is more persuasive to them than to read like a million studies. Well, I don't know. I'm a total narcissist, so I have to create a story

like super-thick. Thank you. Hey there listeners. While we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks

to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduka Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and Kodopaxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that pulls energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together they discuss their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to learn along the way, like confronting big challenges and how to lead through uncertainty. So, if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur,

check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery app. Here, actually speaking of meditation, you knew this question was coming. You have not been able to create a meditation habit. No, no. I did successfully create the meditation habit. I did not successfully find meditation to be helpful. I then had to break the meditation habit because it was like the habit was there for me. What was not helpful to you?

The meditation? Why was it not helpful, sorry. I mean I was just sitting there for five minutes, like trying to clear my thoughts and quiet mind and getting back to the breath. And then I tried, you know, when you do, when you have an image in your mind, like that seems to be kind of like baby steps, like if you're not really managed to clear your mind,

okay, well, you could focus on an image. Yes. Visualization. Visualization, tried that. Now, I have to say at the time that I did it, I wasn't using guided meditation. An image? Yes. Visualization. Visualization? Yes. Try that. Now, I have to say, at the time that I did it, I wasn't using guided meditation. Because for me, I was like, well, then I'll just be thinking what the people say.

So that seemed, and then I tried, when you're apt to do the guided meditation, and that did seem better. So maybe if I tried again, probably at some time I'll try again. I would do it with a guided meditation, because maybe I needed that kind of scaffolding, but when I was only trying to do it for five minutes and it just started making me nuts, it was not having like the promised effects at all. On the cushion or off the cushion, in other words, on the cushion you were feeling nuts? I was just like, oh my gosh, like this is the longest five minutes in my life.

That is actually, that to me says you were doing it right because if it's easy for you, if it's easy for you, you're cheating. It's a little bit like going to the gym. If you go to the gym and it's a lot of the market, it's like that's cheating. Because when you're meditating, you're fighting millennia of evolution, which is like, blah, blah, blah,

durable wheel of thought. And so you're trying to not stop the thinking because that's actually impossible. Now, as you're enlightened or dead, what you're trying to do in meditation is to focus. For nanoseconds at a time, get lost, start again, get lost, start again. That is really hard to do, especially at the beginning.

But so I think I faced a problem that a lot of people face when they're changing a habit, which is at what point do you say this isn't working? Like it's like, for a while you have to say this is hard, it's hard to go to the gym, I don't want to do it, and yet, is it at some point going to get easier, and I'm going to see the benefits of it, and then at one point you say, you know, this just isn't right for me, and so it's a misuse of my time and my energy. Like a night person, if you're a night person, the idea that you're going to get up at 6am,

like, it's not going to work for you. You know, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you're a hardcore night person if you're a night person the idea that you're gonna get up at six a.m. like it's not gonna work for you you know i hate to be the one to break it to you but if you're like if you're a hard-core night person you're not gonna get up at six a.m. and do anything consistently it just goes too hard against your nature so at what point do i say this is difficult for me but that shows that i'm doing it right and so if i keep on going then it's gonna all click in and i'm gonna experience the benefit and one point to say like hey you know what guys i'm i'm out of here then it's going to all click in and I'm going to experience the benefit and one point of the way to say, hey, you know what guys? I'm out of here because this isn't working. Now I did it for five months.

That's a long time. I mean, I felt like that was a good try. That's a very good try. This is a very good try. So I will resist the urge to browbeat you. No, no, do browbeat me. You're the one that I wasn't even going to try again. And then I was like, well, if Dan,

because I think we're kind of similar in all many respects on our personalities, if Dan felt like it was really worth it. And then I can see how it would be for me. And you also said something that I thought was incredibly persuasive, which was you said, I know people who haven't stuck to it for whatever reason. But I don't know anyone who thinks it was a waste of time. And I was like, except for you. Well, I don't think it was a waste of time because it was an interesting experiment, but I have

to say that I did not feel the benefits. How long did it take you before you started feeling the benefits? I started to see it after a couple of weeks, two big benefits. One was that it boosted my ability to focus, which has never been a strong suit of mind. And the other thing is that it just makes you more mindful, which basically for the uninitiated means that you're not so yanked around by the voice in your head. And so that means you're resisting your urges. Like, obviously, I'm not so good at resisting your urge to eat sugar, but you resist urges

to like say the thing that's going to ruin the next 40 hours of your marriage or... Send the email. Send the email that you were totally regretting. And what I knew was starting to work is when I would overhear my wife at parties telling people that I was less of a jerk. That was a huge edit. OK, that's persuasive.

The people, the mistake that people make, and I'm not sure you're making this mistake, but this is a mistake that gets me not infrequently, is people judge the value of the practice based on their experience on the cushion. Oh, I see right. But because it's frustrating, people extrapolate that to mean that they're failing. It's not working.

Correct. But in fact, it's the judo move of seeing that this voice in your head is in the business of offering up terrible ideas. And then noticing, oh, that's just a thought. And returning to whatever you're meditating on, usually your breath, that process is a bicep appropriate for your brain. And it changes the way you relate to this thought machine

in your head, which sometimes is brilliant and is often negative, repetitive, and self-referential. As you mentioned, I'm trying to build this app, the 10% tap here app to teach you how to meditate. This is cool. Yeah. As you mentioned, I'm trying to build this app that 10% of your app that you're able to meditate. This is cool. Thank you. I had the best experience using your app than I did doing solo.

What do you recommend? In terms of thinking a lot now, especially being in the middle of your book about how to help people establish habits. Meditation is a hard habit to establish. What would you recommend for us to keep in mind as we build this thing? Well, I think a key thing is if you're in a bliger or if you're dealing with someone who's in a bliger, which I mean, it's just a giant number of people in our bliger, so

it's a big issue. For bligers, the key thing for them is outer accountability. If they want to meet an inter-expectation, there has to be some form of counter accountability. They just need that. And so, it could be whether there's like a big, if a person wanted to use it and is like, okay, I want to try meditating, I'm going to get this out, but how do I get myself to stick to it? So part of it is like, do you want to form a group with other people who are trying to change a habit? And they don't all have to be changed in the same habit, it's just the accountability. And there's a starter kit on my site, GretchenRuven.com, for people who want to form accountability

groups, for people trying to change a habit. Or maybe it's like a Facebook group, or like you and your sister want to do it together, and every morning you're going to be like, did you do it today? Or sometimes apps will, like a lot of apps have things where it's like you have to, before you go forward, you have to say, yes, I did it yesterday, are you right? Right, right. But the thing about obliterates, just like the questioners come in different varieties. A obliterate or some of the obliterates can be their feeling of obligation is triggered

by something like an auto text from an app. And they'll be like, oh, I got to do it. And then some, it's only a real consequence from a live person is going to make them feel. And some people, if they pay for something, that makes them feel obligated. For some people, if they pay, they're almost feeling, man man, I paid, it's like it's good as going. I don't know, I'm not off the hook. And to give them know yourself, what kind of thing is going to make you stick to it?

Or something that works for a lot of obligators is their duty to other people, or their duty as a role model. So you could say, let's say you've got three kids. You could be like, hey kids, I'm going to do this. And because I want to show, I want to model the behavior of someone keeping their words to themselves. And I want to model the behavior of someone keeping their words to themselves. And I want to model healthy behavior. I have to stick with it because I want my children to see

that I can follow through with something. Or you could say, I'm only going to do it if my husband does it. And so if you don't do it, I won't do it. So we both have to do it because we want to do it for the other person. That's something that works a lot. I mean, I heard about blighters doing things like, so you love to go for bike rides. And I'm your wife and I'm in a blighter.

You can only go for bike ride if I've meditated that day. And so if I don't meditate, then if you're like, oh, honey, I'm disappointed I can't go for my bike ride. So that might make me meditate. So there's all these ways to think about how to trigger that outer accountability for that interact with patients.

Well, it's a real emotional blackmail directly in the future. I mean, you know, because, and obligers will say to me, like, well, I don't want to have to be accountable to somebody else. I don't want to have out of accountability. But I'm like, if that's what you need, that's what you need to figure out a way to get it. It's usually not that hard. But here's another thing about obligers.

If someone asks you for accountability, you should really help them get it. People don't ask for accountability unless they know they need it. And so sometimes like you'll talk to two people and one will be like like two co-workers and one's like you got to give me a deadline and then I was like no just get around to it whenever you get around to it. No this person's asking you to I need accountability. If they ask for accountability, give them accountability because they need it. You've been great with my questions. Now this is the, as I said, we're totally experimenting with this, this, whatever you want to call it, podcast, podcast. A podcast, I've never heard that word before.

I love it, I love it. I love it. So we want to do, we want to institute a little tradition toward the end of the thing where we do like a speed round that we're calling pro tips. So I'm going to throw out some areas and then do an I are gonna go quickly to what to do.

Okay. Alright, so the first is, what do I need to know if I want to establish or end a habit? The first thing you have to do is know yourself because there is no magic one size fits all solution. It's not do it for 30 days or start small or give yourself a cheat day or do it first thing in the morning.

You have to begin by saying, well, what's true for me? Am I a morning person, am I a nerd person? Am I an abstainer or a moderator? Which tendency am I? Do I like to be in an atmosphere of abundance? Do I need a lot of simplicity? There's a million things that about to know about yourself that then you can set up the habit in a way that suits you.

Because just the fact that it works for your brother-in-law and Steve Jobs doesn't mean that it's gonna work for you. You really have to begin by thinking about yourself. So know that self is the rule number one. No, yes, 100%. What's rule number two? Then once you do it, figure out how to set up the habit in a way that works for you.

So a lot of times people who are night people say, oh, I'm gonna get up early and go running. That's not gonna work for you. So instead of spending all your energy trying to figure out how to get up in the morning, get forced yourself to get up in the morning, figure out, well, how can I, yeah, I work, I have all these things, how can I work out later in the afternoon. So you have to think about knowing what you know about yourself, how can you create a realistic habit that you can really stick to?

What about scheduling? Scheduling works really well for not for rebels, but for everybody else scheduling works really well. That's a great, so I have 21 strategies and better than before. That's one of the first and most powerful. For most people, they're much more likely to stick to something if it's actually on the schedule. And that includes fun. So if you have, I feel like, oh, I never have time for fun. It's like put that in your calendar, just like a trip to the dentist. Like I have read, I have two hours where I read every weekend because I'm like, if I don't put it on the calendar, it might not happen. And that's the most important thing to me. What about monitoring?

That's really important, too. Yeah, like we manage what we measure. So if there's something that's important to you, you want to track it. Whether that's like tracking your budget, tracking how many steps you take with a, you know, a device tracker. Or, you know, sometimes people are like, well, you can't measure the most important things in life. You can usually come up with an approximation.

Like, if you want to read your child every night every night, how often do you actually do that? You might tell yourself you do it a lot more than you actually do. Or you might actually feel guilty when in fact you're doing a pretty good job. So if you monitor something, and also monitoring has kind of has an uncanny power just by monitoring, we often start to behave better just because we're more, it gets back to mindfulness.

We're more mindful about what we're doing because we're more aware of what we're actually doing. And so we tend to do a better job. Why is it that when we're trying to create a good habit or end a bad habit? We find that toward the end of the day. Yes, we mess up We all need to have self-mastery and like if there's something in life that you want It's you want to have a lot of self-mastery and the longer you go through your day you just sort of start wearing up that self-mastery and And so you want to make sure that you do things like

get enough sleep, don't let yourself get too hungry. Exercise tends to, exercise boost energy, it doesn't diminish energy the way some people think. Like keeping your outer environment sort of under control often does help people feel, they keep their self-mastery. And yeah, and if there's something that you know is going to tax you, you do not want to have it happen at the end of the day.

So, self-mastery is kind of a finite resource and we... Well, it's interesting there's a controversy about that because some people argue that self-mastery is a finite resource. It's sort of like your muscle and you know, you use it up and then it becomes tired or it's like a gas tank that becomes depleted. Now some people argue that it's not because it's part of our imagination and that you can you can get people to find new reserves of willpower if you change the way. You do it like for instance I'm not sure this was why this study was done but they had children

try to stand still and they couldn't do it fidgeting fidgeting and then they said stand still like a soldier and instantly the children could to stand still, and they couldn't do it, fidgeting, fidgeting, and then they said, stand still like a soldier. And instantly, the children could stand perfectly still, because their imagination has been cute. And so sometimes with willpower, it's like, if you go into a different part of your brain, you see things differently, you might find new reserves. But whether or not, whichever model of self-mastery is actually the most true, the fact fact is we've all experienced it in real life. As the day moves on, as you get closer to bedtime,

as you become increasingly tired, as you've been increasingly taxed and found more and more things where you had to use your self mastery, it becomes harder and harder. That is why you were not eating those Oreos at 9.30 AM on a Sunday, you know? That's why I had a bag of veggie puffs last night. I'm gonna say that's the danger zone.

And that's the reason to go to bed on time. Because if you go to bed on time, often, you sleep right through that. It's like that zombie-like period before, when you're up to late. So that's a key part of making or breaking habits. So that's what you do. Go to bed on time.

Go to bed, yes. But isn't you get out of the danger zone? Yeah, and also fights with your spouse, or like a roommate or something, or yelling at your or something like that. That is a nung-nut. So why don't you make my wife go to bed earlier? Well, so most adult, you have to figure out how much sleep you need.

This is really helpful. If you figure out, most people know what time they have to wake up, do the math. If you need seven hours to do the math, and that is your bedtime. A lot of people now even set an alarm. Have an alarm go off to remind you to go to bed. Because a lot of times people are like, well, I'll go to bed whenever I'm tired. But then they do things to jack themselves away, like stop binge watching Game of Thrones or whatever.

And then you're like, I'm wide awake. You know, or like you check your work email, and you're like, you get that boost of adrenaline. So then you're up to one. When in fact, you should have gone to bed at 10.30. Well, this is perfect. I wasn't planning on doing this, but now that we're in the speed round,

what are more tips? My answers are not speedy. No, no, are not speedy. No, no, they're pretty good. More tips if you are a bad sleeper, what are the wretch and rubin tips for falling asleep? So it's always, it's to wake up at the same time every day, even on the weekends, because there's something called social jet lag, which is people who sleep very late on the weekends, then they, from what they do during the week, it's like they're flying back and forth

to the west coast every week. So you want to wake up on the up at the same time every day, give yourself a bedtime and set an alarm, and you might even need to have a snooze alarm that says, okay, 15 minutes, tell your bedtime. And so if it's, you're up an hour past your bedtime, you know, one thing that's really helped me is I now get ready for bed well before I plan to go to bed

because what I realized is I was so exhausted by the prospect of having to brush my teeth and take out my contact lenses that I would just stay up, which is clearly irrational. So if I now that I'm like, I get all ready for bed well before, so that when I get the urge to go to sleep, it's much easier. Getting rid of light, like blinking your television apparatus might, they emit crazy amounts of light now, or a glowing clock you want to cover those.

What about lowering the temperature? Lowering the temperature? Absolutely. That's something that helps. Open a window or a pericion? Yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband does that religiously. So, and exercise helps people fall asleep faster and sleep more deeply.

So if you're not getting any exercise, exercise, will boost your energy during the day and also give you more self mastery, but it will also help you sleep during it in bed night. What about not using your bed as a place where you're doing work or non-sleep related things? Yes, I mean, yeah, that's a really good one. I don't even read in bed, really.

I only just do bed things in bed. But I do sometimes watch TV in bed. But not often but not often. Yeah, but not like sitting there with your laptop, like answering work emails. No, you want your bed to feel like a refuge. And even your room, like one thing is if your room is really messy, it can just make you feel like keyed up. I'm a big believer that outer order contributes to intercom.

And so like I have a friend who had piles and piles of photographs sitting on her ledge. And I walked in there and I'm like, man, that's just stressing me out, seeing those. It's like, oh, yeah, they've been there for like three years because I can't deal with it. I'm like, you have to deal with it and get that out of your bedroom.

And she said, I see so much better because I walk in and it's like so calm. And I make my bed every day. I think that is something like coming home to a maid. Some people find an unmade bed more inviting, so it's again, it just depends on the kind of person that you are, but for a lot of people like seeing, just like that, it just feels more inviting

to like, it feels cool and neat, that can be something too. You let us write into the last thing I wanna ask you about in the pro tip round here, which is, we're coming up on spring, decluttering. Yes. How do we do it? I know, I love decluttering. I know.

You're like a, you're a kid. I feel like you guys self-medicate by decluttering. Whenever you were, you were decluttering before Marie Condo. I know. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So one, one, there's a bunch of little habits that I formed that really helped. One is the one minute rule.

Anything that you can do in less than a minute, do without delay. So if you can hang up a code, if you can put a dish in the dishwasher, if you can close a cabinet, if you can print out less than a minute do without delay. So if you can hang up a code, if you can put a dish in the dishwasher, if you can close a cabinet, if you can print out an email and delete it, if you can do it in less than a minute do it without delay. That gets rid of the sort of scum on the surface of life. A weird thing that I wouldn't have thought worked with somebody told me and it really does work is every time you leave a room, take one thing with you.

You don't have to actually put it away, but just get it closer to where it's supposed to be. So if you have a dirty, like I have a dirty coffee mug in my office, I'm not going to take it all the way to the dishwasher but I can put it on the stand in the empty way and now it's closer to the kitchen and that also just helps things find their way. I had to, I realized that I never hung up my coat or never hang up clothes because I don't like putting things in hangers so I put hooks in my closet and now I will put my coat on a hook because I'm too lazy to put it on a hanger. Yes, that's the level. Put trash cans everywhere, so it's easy to throw things away.

You know, one of Marie condos things that I think really works is if you're trying to clear something out, take everything out, take everything out of a drawer, take everything out of a closet, and then put it back in. And I found that even things where I thought I had gone through clothes or coats, when I did it that way, I really did get, I got rid of a whole other layer of stuff. Why is decluttering so important? This, I think that this is something that people should really study. I don't think there's enough research into this area because I really feel powerfully

myself. And so many people have told me they feel the same way, that there's something about getting control over the stuff of your life that makes you feel more in control of your life generally. And if it's an illusion, it's a helpful illusion. And there's a minority of people who love clutter, who don't even see it, who thrive in it. OK, fine.

We all know who they are. They know who they go off and do that. But most people just feel better when they're in an orderly environment. And more than it seems like a shit, because we can all agree that this kind of stuff is trivial in the context of a happy life, like how messy your kitchen is. And yet, over and over, people say to me, how they feel more energetic, they feel more optimistic, they feel more creative. A friend of mine said, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know

I can switch careers. And I knew how that felt, because it's this feeling of getting, just having space to think, and just having things in their proper places, not having to look for things, getting rid of things that don't work. Stuff kind of ways on our conscience. You're like, oh, here's this thing that I never wear. Oh, I spent all this money on these shoes, but I don't wear them.

Or this is this office supply that kind of broke. I had the strutter and giant strutter it broke the first time I used it. I was like why can't get rid of it right because I just bought it. I'm not going to get a fix where do you get a shredder fix. I just sat there for two years and finally I was like okay get the giant shredder out of my house it doesn't work. And it felt better. It felt what was I doing.

I mean like give it up the minute minute it broke, it felt better. Off my shelves and my conscience. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you everybody for watching. We really appreciate that. Or listening, whatever you're doing. Dan Harris signing off.

What do you say to the end of the podcast? I say onward and upward at the end of my podcast. Onward and upward. There we go. My thanks again to Gretchen. Sorry to you listener. Dear listener for the sub optimal audio quality. But I think you probably, if you've listened this far, got a lot out of it.

Much more from us, including more guests and more guided meditations coming up. Big thanks to my producers and we'll see you next time. Hey, hey prime members, you can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

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