Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 152: Scott Rogers, Embracing Your Adversary

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

While working on a difficult case with some particularly difficult opposing council, Scott Rogers said he had a moment during a mindfulness sitting when he realized the way he was dealing with the matter of litigation wasn't reducing that quality of dissatisfaction with that experience, it was contributing to it. Rogers, who has written several books, now serves as the director of the Mindfulness in Law program at the University of Miami School of Law, working with law students and faculty to embrace mindfulness as a way to be less stressed, but still competitive in the field. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ OUTRO MUSIC [♪ I'm Dan Harris. Generally speaking, lawyers in the public imagination do not generate a surplus of sympathy, but I'm not sure that's fair. And even if you think it's fair, bear with me because our guest this week who has been

teaching mindfulness to aspiring lawyers at the University of Miami Law School is really interesting both in terms of his personal story and also in in terms of his approach to meditation, so Scott Rogers is coming up first. Let's do your calls. Here's number one. My name is John. I'm calling from Abu Dhabi in the UAE First I want to say thank you for the podcast and the and the work that you're doing It's proven to be very helpful and enlightening Thank you for the podcast and the work that you're doing. It's proven to be very helpful and enlightening. So my question is this, I've been meditating

in an established practice for the past seven years and I went home for the holidays and started teaching some family and some friends and realized that I have kind of a pension for this and maybe even an ability. So in a roundabout way, my question would be, what advice would you give to current practitioners that are possibly prospective teachers and want to move it into destruction and teach this stuff. Thank you. First of all, that's awesome.

I think it's great. And one of my biggest fears about the state of the meditation industrial complex right now is that there are not enough highly trained teachers. And I've said this before in the podcast, I am of the view, it's just my opinion, that the great teachers have a lot of experience on retreat. And really, you know, it takes, you're going to get under the hood of somebody's mind,

you need to have a lot of time on the cushion yourself, it's a position of extraordinary responsibility and power. And we don't have enough of them in my opinion. And so I'm psyched that you're into it. So I would recommend, in bear in mind, I come out of a specific, I've practiced in a specific tradition. So I'm biased in that direction. I just want to be open about my biases.

So there are two places I would recommend you go. The Insight Meditation Society, which is in Barry, Massachusetts, B-A-R-R-E, they have a teacher training program. And I believe, and I don't know too much about this, it may be affiliated with or separate from Spirit Rock, which is on the West Coast in Marin County. I believe it's Marin County, North of San Francisco, which is a related meditation center. And they either both have teacher training programs

or have a joint one, but in any event, I would recommend talking to them because they produce an extraordinary number of amazing teachers, many of whom I know quite well because they teach on the 10% happier app. So I think it's awesome what you're up to, and that's where I would recommend you go to check it out and anybody else is listening who wants to get into this. Alright, let's do call number two.

Hey, Dan Kimberly calling. I have found meditation to have an incredible impact on my life and I want desperately to pass this practice to my children and I would love to have your best tips on how to do this without freaking out my children that has been raised in more of a faith-based lifestyle that I am actually starting to question and make a turn about. I've already tried to approach it with the one child I have that I think could use it the most, and I have gotten a typical mean girl. What is this all-mandy, pamby, peace, love, not more kind of response? And she thinks I've lost my mind. And she also genuinely believes that she's the one living in reality and I'm not. But that's a whole other conversation.

Have a great day and thank you, Hudson Hugs to all, you, Bianca, and your little boy. Have a great day. Thank you, that's very sweet. I appreciate it. And I've had a minute of thinking, oh no, is this the same question? I get all the time. I want to teach meditation to my kids. How do I do it? But actually, yours is a really interesting twist. Because it sounds like your kids are in a faith tradition.

And therefore, there's some sort of baked in hostility to meditation. So you're really just trying to figure out how to position it so that given their conditioning, they might be open to it. And so I would say, and this is just my opinion, I would say that you should really depict it in secular terms that this is not about attacking their belief system. But this is not about attacking their belief system. It's about a secular training of the brain and the mind to be maximally effective.

So we all want to have productivity and focus that's operating on the highest possible level so that we can get as much done. I would assume that would be attractive to your children. We all know that we suffer from strong emotions at times and sometimes as a consequence, do things we regret, shaving that down, shaving down our emotional reactivity. That's attractive, I think, to a lot of people. And I think pointing out that a lot of people in our society who we admire, the US military corporate executives, entertainers, elite athletes are doing this, not because they're in the market for abandoning their core religious beliefs, but because it makes them better at what they do.

So I would really position this as something that's secular, and that, you know, if these are people who really care about their prayer life, for example, being able to curb to a certain extent the craziness of their own minds, the monkey mind, will I would imagine improve their prayer life. So they're less distracted and more focused on what it is they want to focus. So that's my advice for what it's worth. Best of luck to you. Let's get to our guest this week because this is a really smart person who I think has a lot to say that's going to be interesting to you guys.

Scott Rogers is the director of the mindfulness and law program at the University of Miami Law School. He works with both students and faculty and helps them embrace mindfulness as a way to be less stressed in an extremely stressful environment and in what is an extremely stressful field of endeavor professionally. This was actually recorded in January, so if there's an outdated reference in here,

please forgive us. The reason why we're posting it now is because the law is on the minds of many Americans as Brett Kavanaugh is in the midst of his confirmation proceedings on Capitol Hill. In fact, I'm looking at a TV monitor right now and he's on there. So here we go. Here's Scott Rogers. So let me ask you, how did you start meditating? Well, Pam about 28 years ago when we were in the law school environment. Oh, she was in law school with you? Pam and I met in law school. In fact, just months before

it was all going to turn into the next aspect of life in the law that is graduating, law that is graduating said we have a meeting with Marty Peters. Marty Peters is this extraordinarily wonderful woman who was the school psychologist, University of Florida, a school psychologist at the law school, which was a sign of its being on top of things. And she would always offer students and others tips on reducing stress or focusing, concentrating, and those nice things that I always found helpful and interesting. She also was trained by the Maharishi in Transcendental Meditation. One day out of the blue, Pam said, we're going to see Marty, I've signed a step to learn

TM. That's how the form will practice, sort of got set in motion. What were you like at that time? Was it were you super stress versus a reason Pam dragged you in to do TM and what kind of effect did it have on you? Pam might have an different entry to the question. I loved law school. I thrived in law school.

I found it to be very rich and not stuff I did not know. I love the learning process. I love my classmate. I love faculty. So I think that I was not stressed in law school. Our relationship was somewhat new. And Pam, the relationship continues to this day. You've met Pam.

And I don't know what Pam would say. I'm sure I've changed in many ways. But I don't think I'll have to ask her. That's a great question, Dan. Why did she? I never thought about why. It just seemed interesting. What did you notice in effect internally when you started to do it? I was drawn to it, this idea of turning my attention inward. And in this case, you're probably familiar with TM, there's a concentrating on word, right? A mantra.

A mantra to continue to come back to that word when the mind wanders or however that may be. And really in some ways, TM offers, you know, the promise, perhaps, of the experience really enriching and deepening and some, you know, I don't know if I wrote the word Woody Allen used in Annie Hoppe, some transplanted sort of way or something, right? There's something that I think captures people with the prospect of really an enriched experience. I didn't necessarily have that so much as the motivating force, but this real

interest in noticing and perhaps narrowing the field of focus around an object. I find that to be quite interesting. And I had, yeah, I find that to be quite interesting. Well, I mean, a lot of lawyers have a good attention span. You're going to sit and read through it. This is the reason why I'm not a lawyer. I thought about it. It just seems horrible, certain offense. Actually offense. It seemed horrible. But so I can imagine why a mind that would be good at law school would enjoy locking in on a mantra and seeing how well you could focus on it. That's interesting. You know, I think a lot of people, certainly a lot of law students and a lot of attorneys will talk about how, just how busy their mind is, how restless the mind is, how antsy. And a lot of people, you know, this idea of people saying, I may D.D. or I may D.H.D., I hear

that all the time in and outside of. So that just may be an aspect of the ethos of the moment and just the way things are moving. What you're saying is very interesting. I do think that there is something about a certain aspect of the lawyer mind locking in on something. I think there's something to that. I don't think that that canvases the law, though, broadly. Some, yes, not all.

For me, maybe, maybe. I think I've always had a fairly good ability to sort of stay on top of things, but, but restless as well. Did you find that doing this practice was useful for you in your life and your relationships? Did it make any difference whatsoever? You know, I didn't stay with it long enough as the practice. I think what happened was we learned it. I really enjoyed it. We practiced it. Pam and I practiced it together a little bit. We went to Marty and her husband Don's house where we would sit and practice and maybe with a small group. Marty, by the way,

does a lot of interesting stuff with I think TM in its larger aspect today. And but there wasn't a lot to read about it. I was hungry, I think, for learning more about this introspective, attentional orientation. And I began to read what I could find, which back in 1990, 1991 wasn't tons, at least I couldn't find tons. And that led me to a couple of books on Zen,

led me to Alan Watts, led me to some interesting, even when it was religious, it was a Catholic priest who had become a Zen practitioner and wrote a book on it. I found that to be helpful for instruction, like learning about more of a less mantra oriented practice. And then in short order, led to mindfulness which became the one the practice that really took hold. So when you say mindfulness in this context or you're referring to secular mindfulness or did you learn mindfulness within a Buddhist context? At first the books that I found on mindfulness were books written by Ticknot Han. He had... He's a mysterious... A wonderful voice for mindfulness, a wonderful way of, I think, speaking to it,

simply and beautifully. And there were just some books, if I went looking in the bookstores, he had books. I think Parallel Express had published a bunch, and they just kept coming out. Faster than I could read them. Another one was coming out, and he tended to, at least in my experience, restate basic fundamental insights. And so you would read another book and really reread something, but it would resonate and reinforce. So he is, as you said, Vietnamese and from the Buddhist tradition. And so I would say that my early readings, and then as the journey progressed a sort of engagement was with the Buddhist psychology and teachings.

That's so funny what you said about Tignot Han restating the basic propositions of mindfulness. It just really hammers home the point that we can hear it, read it, practice it a thousand times, but we still need to hear it 10,000 more times because it's something that runs so counter to the way we operate, in other words mindlessly, that this message of waking up, breaking out of autopilot, we just have, in all of its aspects, that's what I actually view as one of the functions of this podcast is to just have a weekly waking up party, a reminder session. It's not dissimilar to in some ways

why you go to church on Sunday. Yeah, it's really interesting. I remember years ago, another person very early on that really influenced me and to this day, I cherish his voice is Ram Das. And I remember one of Ram Das. He just, he's a former Harvard professor, got fired for giving acid to the students and like that. And then went off, India studied with a Hindu master, changed his name to Ram Das,

and that lives in Hawaii and still teaches. And I think he got fired for being both researcher, because it was, it was LSD and related research that was that was okay back then and maybe sort of having a resurgence in some ways but wanted to be both researcher and subject. That's right that that that that's right. He's an extraordinary. If you can listen and you probably have if you listen to Ram Das talk and articulate things at least I was just drawn in. And also he, I think early on, was very interested in getting out of his head, right? The voice in the head that you speak of that so beautifully.

And then in time, I think emerged with the realization also it was deep ining his connection of the heart. And I think that's where he, his own, at least my tracking of him and perhaps myself as it connects to that sort of move into that sphere of really a hard opening embrace maybe being the key in many ways to unlocking so much and so I find him to be really wonderful to learn from and in one of the things He said he began by saying something like there's nothing I'm going to share with you all that you don't already know It's that we tend to forget. So let's hear we are.

We've come together to remember. And I think when Ticknot Han, when you read it over and over and over and when you share it, when you interview people and hear the same and very similar pieces of wisdom, yeah, it's like, it is a run so contrary to something that is this important wake up. And then we fall asleep again. Let me hone in on a phrase you just used. This is one of those phrases that's a bit of a red flag for me, but I think I know where you're going with it and I just would like to hear you unpack it. Heart opening and brace.

You for me as a dedicated anti-sentimentalist phrase is like that. I'm always sort of policing my interlocutors about, you know, what does that mean? So you used it. So what do you mean by it? Well, you know, it's interesting. And the law, for example, which is a very adversarial system by its very nature, like life is adversarial, right? In many ways. And the law is by design an adversarial process that perhaps tamps down on what it might otherwise be if we didn't have the law. And so this idea that the other is the enemy, the other is a threat, the other is a problem.

And the other, of course, if we're really, if the voice in our head is really calling the shots and we're not catching that voice, then everything is the other. And that's not necessarily correct. At least it's not correct, even at the simplest, most superficial level, that the threat that we presume that this person represents is, in fact, the threat that they actually represent.

The stories we tell ourselves, and we hear ourselves, really can make it so much more of a distance than it actually is. So I think for me that heart opening embrace on the one hand is an opportunity to realize that we're much more connected. We've got we're in this together, even if it's a case in your on opposite side, we're still seeking justice and we're still going to go home to our friends and our family and just we were doing the best we can and it's challenging and there's a lot of confusion. So on the one hand at the most superficial level Dan, I'd say it's realizing that we've got more going on together than we think and we're not quite the threats that we take each other to be and we don't have to be as guarded and as stressed as that

leads to. Going a little deeper, I think it speaks to, I think it speaks to this recognition that if we can really tame that voice in our head, not forget it, but really size it up and befriend it. Maybe that's another word you're going to want to unpack. Really, but friend it. No, I'm cool with that. Okay, good. Then there's this letting go of something that was never real in the first place

and the feeling of connection, which is not touchy-feely, but is actually inherent in the system in which we find ourselves, we realize, and it's a game changer. But how did this play out? At this point, you're a young lawyer, you just graduated, you're reading all these books by Tick.Hon, which is probably not super common in your profession, especially at that time. But you're actually practicing the law. I don't know what you'll tell us, what context you were in. How did that play? Did

you find yourself, you know, giving big hugs to people in a different side of a case? Or like, how did this heart opening embrace play out in your legal practice? Well, yeah. Well, I practiced commercial litigation. So there's an intent to that tough stuff with a wonderful firm, with wonderful people, who by the way were very interested in talking about mindfulness, because that was when I was firmly in this mindfulness sort of approach to contemplative practice. Love talking about the mind moving into the past and regretting doubt. Love talking about very interested and insightful about the mind moving into the future and anxiety, et cetera.

And then when it came to practice, that didn't teach to your point. Even you said, I love what you said, your book. The first book, 10% happier. There's extraordinary brilliant book. If you needed justification and a basis to sort of explore mindfulness, there you have it. You have it. I use that book in class.

I think I've shared with you. Students love it. We read it. I have them put together a little chapter of their own story, not the way you, because it's so interesting and helpful. But this practice is elusive, which is why your next book, the current book, I think, is really important as well. So this journey, I mean, for me, that was, say, the early 90s when I began to practice and become interested. And for me, it was a great deal the early 90s when it, when I began to practice and become

interested. And for me, it was a great deal of reading. It was reading. It was reading. I didn't have a teacher. I was in South Florida. I wasn't, I was married or just gotten married and I practiced and I did something called Judicial Clurchship with Judges, which then led to the law firm and commercial litigation.

And it was just busy. And I found a lot of my spare time, I was reading books on mindfulness. And the game changer for me was when I was in a sangha, this is a Tick-Not-Hon sort of suggestion that people start these groups, these mindfulness groups. And we had one in South Florida that I on the beach, Miami Beach that I was a wonderful friend now, Jill Siler, who just opened her

home to people to come in once a week for an hour and a half to read about mindfulness and sit and practice mindfulness and then talk about the experience. So for many years, it was this student reading and learning. And I wouldn't I would say that there was no heart opening early on. and learning, and I wouldn't, I would say that there was no heart opening early on. There definitely was in ways that by the way weren't always so, seemed, didn't go swimmingly as I'd hope, you know, the ability to be with my wife and have her say something that was probably quite right and all that, but I was resisting it, and rather than react and have it turn into a fight, I was quiet and listened,

and then she said to me, why are you so quiet? Right, so I was like, but I am quiet. This is a good thing. This is a step in a direction. Was she, by the way, keeping up with her meditation practice? No, Pam is brilliant at pointing me in the direction, probably to what you intimated earlier, because it'll be helpful to me and helpful to her,

and then going off and doing something entirely different. So I'd say there was this journey of really slowly and maybe but surely stepping more and more in the direction of being a little bit less reactive, a little bit more aware, and then of course, having all that fall away and becoming reactive and not aware, and then having that be the very Stuff that helped me become a little bit more aware and a little bit less reactive for years And I would say it was probably helpful to the relationship

It was helpful to me. You know life does it stuff with you know wonderful children and then the then parenting and parents getting older and Friends passing away and things like that and I think that the practice has been helpful at creating a more alive and connected and aware me. And then in time, I think there probably was a bit of time into this when that heart opening embrace, something began to shift. And it just happened. So when you say you began to hug people,

or that is something that I think is nice to do, but I can't do it on purpose. But it wasn't like, you were still, I don't know if you were still doing commercial embrace, a commercial litigation when the embrace happened. But how did that change your relationship either in your own mind or in real life

to the people who were, but for all intents and purposes, your adversaries. Right. Okay. You made me think of something. So again, I think that the hard opening embrace took, I'm going to say, 10 years or longer to even begin to kick it in a way that I felt towards quote adversaries. I remember when I was, we were at a very difficult case with a posing council who was extremely just, just unbelievable, it was unbelievably difficult case,

unbelievably difficult opposing council and his client. And it was one of these cases where you're so sure you're right and you're so sure they're misrepresenting. And I think that was correct. And we all have our takes on things. I remember having a conversation after some hearing or something. And the opposing, I was so like my, even as I'm saying, at my heart, I feel my heart racing. It was just so unbelievably frustrating to want to be feeling like you're being treated unfairly and things are being misrepresented and you're having a difficult time setting

the record straight. And I sat and I practiced. So I, that was a time to practice. So I remember sitting and I did up a mindfulness practice. Somewhere in the middle of the practice. I had this realization this insight That I was contributing to this offering That even though I may very well have been right Nonetheless the way I was responding in the conversation the way I was I was responding in the conversation, the way I was dealing with the matter of litigation that I was, there was resistance and there was that I wasn't helping making it. I wasn't reducing that quality of dissatisfaction with the experience.

I was contributing to it. And that to me was a realization that we're all in this together and me too. So what could you, I'm just curious about this because I think a lot of people, I'm honing in on this because I think a lot of people, well we're going to talk about this with you, teaching mindfulness and a law school context, but a lot of people worry about meditation. And I still on some levels have my moments of worrying about it too, that what does it mean if you're in a competitive context, which the law certainly is in many of its aspects, if not most of its aspects? What is it? How do you take this stuff into your professional life when there's a certain amount of vanquishing that often needs to be your endeavoring to do.

Yeah. Well, you know, I don't think that being present, being aware, being alert, hearing what's actually being said, letting the person who's talking no matter what your relationship to them, and no matter how hostile your relationship may be in terms of a legal matter, letting them finish what they're saying, having them feel that you've heard them, that would be not, not checking it up to another level of hostility, actually hearing them a little bit more than you might otherwise, having people in

your midst to your collaborating with, be able to more meaningfully say, well wait a minute here, let's talk about what's really maybe going on here. You know, Sharon Salzburg has that nice phrase that mindfulness is being able to tell the difference between what's happening and the story you're telling yourself about what's happening. So everybody's got a story about what's happening and if one person can sort of offer a little nugget of what's actually taking place, that can be really helpful. So that doesn't mean that you don't forcefully pursue and at times emotionally and energetically engage because that's responsive to the call of the moment and do what needs to be done.

But it does mean you're doing what's actually called for to be responsive. You're not overdoing it and you're not underdoing it. Both of those would be sort of equidistant from that responsive point, something that doesn't serve the situation as well. Well said. And it reminds me of something else that Sharon Salzburg has said, Sharon, for the uninitiated is a eminent meditation teacher who's been on this podcast many times She says you can compete without being cruel and I said essentially what in some ways what you're describing That's right. That's right. I once there was a Poet or somebody said treat a person as you will just hold them in your heart

So to get to your heart opening embrace treat a person as you will like as you must But don't lose that sense of connectedness to them as a human being who just like you has a life that began is going through the challenges and the struggles and the sadness and the celebrations and will end. And don't forget that. And that's that's something you feel, not something you know just in your head. Again, well said. So you then went on to join the faculty, University of Miami, law school, where you are still and you teach mindfulness to law students. So when you first proposed this idea, what kind of looks did you get?

Fortunate thing was I've tried not to propose things. I don't know if I try not to propose things because then I get attached to wanting it to happen or I've just been very fortunate. So I was at a Florida bar convention. I had my little table out, sort of mindfulness balance and the lawyer's brain was this workshop I was doing.

I was, people were walking by and giving me the glances. You might imagine, or coming over and saying, oh, this looks really interesting. And Janet Sterns, the dean of students at the law school, who had recently joined his dean of students, said, this is interesting. Wellness is a big part of what really matters in the law school environment. Do you think you could come and do this mindfulness balance on the lawyer's brain for law students?

So I said sure. And it really was a life changer for me because I was not anticipating going into law schools and went and taught this class, this voluntary class, I think 15 students signed up, eight students finished, called Mindful and Spalanced and the Law Students Brain, and those that finished liked it. And fortunately also ended up doing well so that it's also spoke well, although I think they were just extraordinary students who would have pre-selected in a nice way that would have done well no matter what. But that led to then me going and talking at orientation to all of the students.

And when I did that, a hundred and I think twenty signed up. So we had three classes the next semester, or the next year or rather, and it just sort of went from there. And then two years later, the dean, a new dean came, Trish White, and she said, this is really important. Let's make this a part of, let's grow this. And then eventually in 2010,

said, let's make this a program. So it really just was very The the faculty and administration supported it. That's huge. The students were responsive That's that's everything and it just sort of has grown on its own and I've just been lucky to sort of be there for the Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident

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listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So at this point is it an integral part of the curriculum or like is it a requirement? It is an integral part of the curriculum in the sense that there are now classes like mindful ethics, mindfulness and law, mindfulness and motivating business compliance with the law, a new class, I teach mindful ethics with a wonderful dear friend and collaborator, Jan Jacopo-Witz, I teach mindfulness and motivating business compliance

with law with a wonderful colleague Rob Rosen. I teach mindful leadership with a wonderful colleague, Raquel Matis. These are wonderful collaborations to sort of enlarge and are collective understanding of mindfulness and the ways that we can share it. And mindful ethics is a part of the PR curriculum. And so students have to take a PR professional responsibility class as you can imagine. Ethics is pretty important for lawyers to walk out and have an understanding of. And it's required, but there's a handful of wonderful offerings in the PR arena, and mindful ethics is one of them.

I see, I see. So I think I know the answer. You may have just answered my next question in your last answer. Lawyers are not super popular in our culture. So why should anybody care whether they're happy? Well, that's interesting. Why should anybody care why they're happy?

Why should people be pleased to hear that lawyers are learning mindfulness? Well, first of all, I think it's unfortunate that lawyers have the reputation they have. I think it's unfortunate that lawyers have the reputation they have. I think it's oftentimes deserved, but you know, it's a curious thing. You know, if you go way back in time when there was a state of nature, right, before laws, it was like, you know, life was nasty, breweders, and short. Yes.

Yes. I'm seeing. Yes, exactly. And then something happened and we got this rule of law and something really extraordinary emerged, which was stability out of the chaos, some clarity, a reliable way to interact with each other and move things forward. And I'll suggest that that was a mindfulness expression unfolding, wisdom and compassion coming out of the state of nature. And lawyers are the stewards

among others and judges of that. And now we have it where anxiety and depression and suicide thoughts and suicides which run high across our society runs especially high, they say among lawyers. And so I find it very poignant that those who are probably the stewards of holding steady in the midst of enormous conflict and anger and resentment and frustration and unfairness are the ones who are suffering in many ways. So I think that if you, so I think there's something about caring about our society and those who play the roles that they play and it's not easy for lawyers. It's not easy.

And the profession is suffering and probably that it's been going on for a long time, which is why this noble profession, because when we look back about the great lawyers and judges, it's a very noble profession even to this day. And those who have relationships with their lawyers that have been so helpful to them. And there's so many that are just doing, I mean, the clinics that we have in the law school and just to be helpful to people in need, it's really extraordinary and yet challenging. So why would people care? I think that you may have just answered. Okay, but go ahead. I don't want to drive to be. Well, you. Well, because it helps, it helps,

because we should care about each other. And lawyers and members of legal profession help, help if they're not doing well, we all suffer. Yeah, there are any real part of the system that we require in order to have the society we want. Yes. What is going on in the law that suicides and depression and anxiety appear to be elevated

in the profession? You know, I've heard, I have colleagues who share, who talk, who teach my, I have colleagues who teach mindfulness to lawyers. I have a wonderful friend, Judy Cohen, in the Bay Area. And she, I've heard her say that the lawyers, we are problem solvers, and we're really good at problem solving. We are competitive, and we like to stay on top of our game,

and we are perfectionist, tech. We like to get it right. And these three things serve our clients well, serve us well when we're doing our job. But if we can't modulate, if we can't turn down the dial on problem solving, then we're constantly looking for the next thing that's wrong, whether we're at home, whether our family, whether our children out just relaxing. If we can't tone down that competitiveness, then there's threats everywhere, whether and overstating those threats. And if we just sort of have to keep going through that document again, because goodness if somebody finds a misplaced comma and

we're shamed by that or whatever that may be, we just keep going. And I think that the thing that serves lawyers so well can become the thing that just answers the question you asked about why. And in South Florida, we've had just recently a bunch of extraordinarily wonderful and kind and brilliant attorneys in their lives, die by suicide, and it's just been a very painful, painful thing. And this is happening, again, throughout all of society to be sure, but with students and lawyers and when it happens, it's a wake up called a lot of people because a lot of times

people will say, I had no idea or I really thought that they were managing it. So what are the biggest, the most interesting issues that you encounter teaching mindfulness in this context, which one would imagine would be a reasonably hostile environment. I think the, what's fascinating is that people are very interested. I think now it's even easier because of wonderful books like yours and what's going on in terms of just talking about mindfulness. It's easier. It's easier. There's a greater I think need to keep clear on what it is and what it's not because it's become more and more popular. Wonderful things that aren't mindfulness

but wonderful things can be confused with mindfulness. Like taking a bubble bath. Like taking a bubble bath. No one can take a bubble bath mindfully. Yes. But. Might not be as much fun as you thought it would be. Right. It mindfully, but it does. It does, right.

The fun that life really offers us might not be the heightened level. Or could be better. I mean, it really just don't know. But as soon as you are open to seeing what's happening in your mind and body, you might be in for some surprises. Yeah. We are continuallyisting surprises. Yeah, right. We are continually infresurpizes. It'll be, it's nice when we get to that stage where we're not surprised because we get

that it's always changing and the direction it's heading and and and all that stuff that life is deeply about. I think that how can I take this thing that I'm drawn to, which is wanting to be happier and more balanced and have a less stressed time of it all and still stay competitive to your earlier comment? That's the thing you hear the most. That's the thing I hear the most. And then people are relieved when they get that the two are not antithetical, but they actually support each

other. But it does take a little bit of seeing the larger picture and understanding more deeply what mindfulness is to get there. It's both of those things. It's, I think, probably first understanding what meditation is and isn't. So, it's not, at least in mindfulness meditation, isn't sitting on a mountain top in a low end cloth and listening to a lot of Anya. It is. But it's also seeing the bigger picture, which is that, as you said before, you can see the humanity and your competitors while still competing.

Yes, that's right. And not lose touch of the humanity within yourself. Right. Because the two probably run in tandem together. As you lose sight of it and the other, you're losing touch of it within yourself. And as you can't maintain that awareness in the other, you cultivate it more fully in yourself. So you've written a bunch of books, but you have a new one. What's the new one called and what's it about? The new book is the Elements of Mindfulness, and it is drawing upon the elements of nature in particular the tree, the wind, clouds, the sun as four primary elements and then two other elements that are very special to both learn what mindfulness is for those for whom it's new, and then to be able to use our connection to nature

and our continual immersion in it as an opportunity to wake up, to have it reinforce the cultivation of mindful awareness, and the book is very much in the service of ways of doing that. So say more about how this would actually work. I mean, South Florida, well, you do have beaches, which are, of course, natural. A lot of people spend their times in their cars and in their offices.

Maybe in their backyard a little bit. But so how do you get people to get in touch with nature without it sounding like sort of an empty bromide? Well, what's interesting is that what you say getting in touch with nature. So for example, they're for each of the elements. And the elements that were chosen are we're chosen because no matter where you are in the world, even if you're nowhere near a beach, for example, and I feel very fortunate to live on the beach, you nonetheless have these elements at the ready.

You look outside the window, whether you're driving in the car or you're have these elements at the ready. You look outside the window, whether you're driving in the car or you're sitting in your office, and you will see a tree, and you will have the opportunity to one way or the other be reminded of something important because the element is right there if you are primed to notice it, if you're primed to notice it. So for example, for each of the elements, there's two ways that one approaches the elements as one develops their relationship to mindfulness, the doing and then the being. So for example, when one sees a tree and they can be in a book, because it could be a book that allows one to practice just by

looking at imagery, when one sees a tree, they adjust their posture. When one feels the breeze or hears the breeze, they take, say, three breaths, slower, deeper breaths. These are your instructions. These are the instructions. And if you think about most meditation practices, to be sure, and really a growing body of mindfulness practices, it will often begin with something like, bring yourself into a comfortable seated posture, upright and stable. Well, there's the tree. Take three slow, deep breaths. There's the wind. And then move to the cloud. And this is something that's sort of a bit of a little bit of an innovation in the book with the doing practices to think to yourself, this is a thought, to actually

generate a thought in your mind so that you can begin to, right, you get it. You can begin to realize that just because it's arising in your mind doesn't mean it's true. Exactly. In fact, in the original version of the book, I had it where when you saw a cloud, you would think to yourself, this is not a thought. The idea being that what could be clearer that a thought is not true, then if you're thinking this is not a thought, but a lot of people who read it were like, I don't understand that. So I figured we'll save that. I didn't understand it. Yeah, it's good though. So you think this is a thought. So you hear that. So it primes that awareness of the content of the mind.

And then you also smile and you think again, but there's a feeling that accompanies it, this is a feeling. And you sort of see if you can't tap into that, that slight uplift of a smile. And then you frown and you think this is a feeling, because again it's just a feeling. And you see if you can't connect with maybe a little bit of a drop in mood. So you supposed to do this every time you see a cloud? Well, for the do know, the doing practice. Yeah. Yeah.

Because that seems slightly impractical. It's a lot of clouds. Correct. But to begin a practice, so when we get to the so-be mindful sunrise, if we get to that, it would be that would be a specific practice. The way you start is there's the tree you adjust your posture. There's the wind, so you take three slow deep breaths. This is just the beginning, so you think the thought, smile, feel the feeling, frown, feel

the feeling, and that all takes seconds. And now you are, you're not going to come back to that in the practice, but you've generated it to start the practice. And then you move to the sun. The sun is awareness, but as a doing practice, the Sun is warmth, spreading warmth. So then you would in the spirit of Sharon Salisberg, you would bring someone to mind and wish for them, well, may you be happy, you spread warmth, and then you would bring it to yourself. So a very small loving kindness practice. May I be happy? So that would be the doing practice working through the four

elements, the four primary elements, and that might take 30 seconds, 45 seconds. You could take five breaths, you could take fewer breaths, you could do the whole loving kindness routine of not just may be happy, but the others as well. It depends on the person in their own interest in relationship. And then now that the sun is out and the sun is awareness, you now come back to the tree. And now it's aware of the body. And it can continue there with just a traditional

awareness of the body practice, or you can then move to the wind and now it's an awareness of the breath practice and or you can then move to the wind and now it's an awareness of the breath practice and it stays right there. So for people who've been practicing for a very long time, they're there and now the practice continues. There's no special, you know, kutraments or accessories or anything complicated about it.

Or it could then move to clouds and now you're aware of thoughts and feelings that fundamental practice, or then it could move to itself, when the sun, where it's aware of, bear attention, choiceless awareness, it's just this open field of awareness. So that's using the elements, really as a for a beginner, or for somebody who's doing a long time, it can be refreshing to sort of really reconnect. And then when you're outside and you're walking

and all of a sudden you see a tree, you might stop. Like the students in the class this week, their instruction is when you see a tree outside, just once a day, at most, you don't have to do this too much, just stop and be aware of the body. I got you. So that's where I was getting confused. So this is a mixture of sort of in vivo

during your life practices. So when you see a tree, maybe once a day, you give, you know, you straighten your posture and notice your posture, same thing with clouds, sun, wind. But it's also a sort of formal practice that you can do that's organized around these concepts. That's right. That's right. Well, at the same time, not trying to add anything to the rich body of contemplative practice is particularly in the mindfulness tradition that are already there. Well, given that there is, there are all these sort of how to meditate books. Why this, why now?

Well, one of the things that I think it offers is, and this was born out of my own early experience, that just happened for two days when I saw a tree one day and while I was driving and I just really saw that tree like something very nothing to S.O.T.R.C. but just something it was a meaningful experience. And I realized that that tree that I just happened to chance upon was the cue that woke me up. So I share it as what are called punctuated practices, that you can just be out there during the day and if you spend a little time reinforcing these images as really just a doing or being practiced that are fundamental to contemplative traditions already, then when you're outside,

you won't just pass every tree with your mind lost and thought periodically, or you will have the breeze blow by you and we lost and thought, it might actually create the opportunity to wake up. And in that waking up, and this is in the spirit of Ticknot Han, for whom I shared with you, I was deeply moved and touched and learned a great deal, this interbeing, right? This idea that the trees are all around us and we have this body, this idea that the wind is all around us and we have this breath, this idea that, you know,

things come and go and we have this mind. The idea that the sun is there and we have this quality of warmth and compassion and also this capacity to really be aware. I don't think it's, I don't think it's a surprise that there is this connectedness between this impermanent thing that you and I wonderfully are here embodying and this world around us. I think that all sounds actually quite useful. Before I'm sensitive to the fact that we're almost out of time, but before we, and I know you've also written a book about parenting.

So I have a three year old, your kids are older. What kind of wisdom can you drop on me in terms of dealing with a three year old? For example, yesterday, he was, I'll tell you what I did and you tell me if this is the right thing. He's very testless mother as well, he should be. She's great and daddy's, I'm around, but not, I travel a lot, I work a lot, so I'm less around than she is. For sure.

She, he took a nap yesterday, she snuck out to, I don't know, do something and I, she said he's gonna freak out when he wakes up, but she actually wanted me to wake him up, she didn't want him to sleep too long, and she said it's probably gonna be unpleasant, which I would have known. But so I woke him up, so he didn't like that,

A, and then B, his mother wasn't around, so he was keening and wailing for a good long while. And my approach was to be like, are you, so how are you feeling? What can you tell me how you're feeling? He's like, I'm sad. I said, okay, so was to be like are you so how are you feeling what can you tell me how you're feeling he's like I'm sad I said okay it's okay to be sad you know tell me more about that and sorry I sort of just drew him out on it and we hugged it out and but then we cry again and we talk again and so that was my move not knowing much about actually I haven't read much about I haven't

read that book that you wrote nor have I read the book that John Cabin's in wrote about it. They very kindly sent me. I have not done a good job of reading books about mindfulness and parenting. So I just kind of did that. Does that sound right to you? What did I miss? I think it's beautiful, Dan. I think that, you know, your signless tendency is speaking something that's really important, which is that we can read forever. you know, your simultaneously speaking something that's really important, which is that we can read forever. And we can continue to learn and reinforce and remind ourselves of the things that we already know

or you've certainly been practicing for a good while and very seriously and with a lot of heart and a lot of intellect. When those moments arise, we can rise with them. When those moments arise, we can rise with them. And I think that what you just shared, especially with that idea of being there and resonating with his emotional state, so that he was not alone in it, and you weren't invalidating or saying, no, let's be different than you are, but you sort of put a big hug around him inside I'm here with you.

And I think that that's, he's a very lucky little boy. It's funny because I was thinking about all these lofty thoughts of creating a safe container for your child's emotions. And I was recalling, all this was happening as we're calling moments where I had strong emotions as a child and my parents graded the aforementioned container. But none of that is what actually got him to calm down is when I heated up some quinoa

and fetishum and 98 and he was totally fine. Well, do things about that. First of all, good quinoa, good job with that. But also, the book mindful parenting was not about what to do in situations with your child. It was how you as a parent could, in the words of Ram Das, create a spacious, resonant environment

so that when your child wants to come out and play, to be themselves, there's nothing inside of you that's gonna keep them stuck. Right? And so, uh, yeah, so it's about us showing up and what we can do to be more mindfully present. Well, say more about that. So what would it be that would be inside of me that would, that would squelch something that my child is hoping to express? Ah, that's a, that's a really important question.

I'll offer something. Just I don't deal well with, and I don't say this is, one of the many flaws that I'm aware of that I am just trying to be work with more skillfully. Some reason I have a bit of a negative reaction to operatic shows of emotion, displays of emotion. And my son is very prone to them. Me's three, so I don't know if that's gonna be how he is

as a person, but definitely does a lot of that. He's a toddler. And I can feel an internal, but I try very much try to bring my practice to bear. I'm aware, try to be aware that that's happening and not let that Make me do something that would be you know scarring for him But is that what you're talking about when you're talking about something internal to the parent that could emerge that would Squash what a child is trying to express or am I off on the wrong sort of tangent here?

No, I think that you're quite right, and you're on the tangent, and you sort of answered the question, I think quite beautifully that you asked. The, what is it inside of us that can have them stuck? They get angry, or they get upset, they do what a child does, whether we are participating in their distress,

or because not doing what they'd like, or they're just experiencing something and then we get We become angry with them because they're doing it in public and we're at the mall or we become Sad because our child is in distress and we're feeling that distress or we become in some way in a state that's resisting what they are expressing. And that resisting, if we don't, as you really wonderfully put it,

notice and observe and find a way of being okay in the midst of that, which is its own large lesson and practice, then we will not respond in a way that we know those moments as a parent and what we do is like somehow quite right, not meaning giving them the lollipop they want, but being there for them, even if, you know, it's not a perfect moment in the way that we'd like everyone to be happy when it's over, or not, or not. And then we perhaps look back, you know, Dan Harris, Dan Steekel has a nice thing about, there's always ruptures in relationships,

but we have the opportunity to repair. And I'm a big believer that the repair creates the larger opportunity, not going through and having no ruptures. Yeah. It was interesting that the, I was not the person he wanted to be with, right? And so he wanted his mom.

And obviously that is a side of this is not great for my ego. But um, well, you chose, you chose well, the person you chose to spend your life with is the one he wants. So right. No, no, I don't, I don't know existential stuff about my state of my marriage or the rest of the stuff about the quality of me, human being because you're so upset to have me be there, not her. But even though I wasn't the one he wanted there, just allowing him to feel what he felt and telling him, oh, it's totally fine to be sad. It's okay to be sad.

Then he wanted to, he wanted to, when I offered him a hug, which I thought he wasn't going to want, because he was revolved by my presence. He actually really wanted a hug. So it was an interesting, it was interesting to watch that all play out. Okay, so I like to end on this completely unoriginal thing that I've come up with, which is what I call the plug zone. So I want, because I love, I want to give, yeah, because by anybody who's reached this point in the podcast, it's going to want to know more about you. So can you just tell us every book you've written, where we can find you on the internet, where we can find social media that you may or may not be involved in, give it all to

us. That's very kind. Well, let me say this since our time together is coming to an end here. First to plug what you're speaking to, let me say that in this moment, Dan, I am really feeling a gratitude to you for all that you've been doing, but also in this moment that I'm here with you and that we've had this conversation. I know that in a few minutes, I'll be walking out the door and you'll be getting on with your day.

And what will this time have, will it have been fidded away? And when I walk out the door and I held an Uber or something, will I just get a cell phone call? And I'm attentive to that. So in the waning moments of our time, let me say thank you.

And as I'm looking at you, let me share with you as part of an answer to your question. If anybody's going to take anything that I certainly have contributed in the books that I'll talk about, it's wherever you find yourself in this moment, if there's a person sitting across from you, as you are me, to really be there for

that person. If that's something that we bring into, we don't need a book for that. And yet that's one of the most elusive things to really be there. So I wanted to share with you that I'm as much as I can be. I'm here with you and I'm deeply grateful for that. And to all my teachers who have, in things that I've read or people I've gotten, the good fortune to learn from, have helped me feel that, because it's not necessarily the way I would have been 20, some odd years ago, to your first question. The first book was Mindful Parenting. Another book that shortly followed was Mindfulness for Law Students.

A related book is the six-minute solution. That's a book mindfulness for lawyers. Those two books use language of the law. Like justice becomes allow the moment to be as it just is. You know, clever ways of playing with the language of the law to remind us to wake up in the middle of our day, and in the work that we do. Another book that I collaborated with is Mindful, Nissen Professional Responsibility, a guidebook for teaching law professors about how to introduce mindfulness into their

curriculum, and the most recent book that you very thoughtfully allowed us to talk a little bit about because I'm grateful for that is the elements of mindfulness, which introduces that particular methodology. And website, social media, anything else? Website. So, the Instagram, that now that book, the elements of mindfulness teaches a method called the Sobe Mindful Method. I come from South Beach, so it has a play on that, but really it means you want to be mindful, so be mindful. You don't make it more complicated than it needs to be, but of course it does take something.

So there's an Instagram, so be mindful, which has images of trees and clouds and sort of serve that purpose. A website, so be mindful.com. I have a website, it's got Scott Rogers.com, things like that. And then at the law school, we have a mindfulness website. And also my wonderful dear friend and partner collaborator, Mishijah, at the University of Miami, we have the you mindfulness,

which you've been kind enough to come down to and share with many your insights. We have a mindfulness.mymv.edu. And she has been on this podcast. Mm, yes. She's very special. Thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

I'm a great job. OK, that does it for another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe, rate us. Also, if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan V Harris. Importantly I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh

Tohan, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

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