Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 154: Susan Piver, Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships

Episode Date: September 26, 2018

Susan Piver was a tough girl. Like, crime-fighting, head of the Boston chapter of the Guardian Angels tough. After nearly being killed by a drunk driver, her path led her to yoga, meditation and Buddhism -- which, by her own admission, made her "soft." But, only by softening toward herself, was she able to soften toward others. Having learned she could apply her teachings to relationships, in the midst of marital troubles and fearing divorce, she was inspired to apply the four noble truths of Buddhism to save her marriage. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT Dan Harris. We actually have love advice on the show this week. I am kind of laughing because it's only kind of true, but it is kind of true. We're going to talk to Susan Piver, who's got a book called The Four Noble Truths of Love,

Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships. She takes one of the core foundational texts of Buddhism, the Four Noble Truths, and applies that wisdom to romantic relationships. I'll be honest with you, and I think you'll hear me admit this to her. I didn't actually know much about Susan going into this interview. I was kind of doing a friend of favor,

and she sounded interesting, but when I brought her on, I didn't really know much about her, but I was really really impressed I think you will be too Susan Piver is really excellent so much more from her coming up first I want to just a small piece of business And then we'll do your voice mails piece of businesses We've got a new Apple watch app for the for 10% happier you should check it out if you got one of those watches I don't have this but if you got one one of those Apple watches that has a cellular capability and

you can go out into the world without your phone and still get phone calls, I do want one of those if my wife is listening for Father's Day. Isn't that a ways off? Maybe Christmas. Anyway, if you have one of those watches, you can use the app to play meditations out there in the world wherever you go through your headphones and yeah it's pretty cool. Alright, let's do your voice mails. Here's number one. Hi Dan, my name's Aaron and I had an incident the other day where I was receiving very poor service at a restaurant. My waitress was clearly unhappy and a bit careless and just not very kind. And I was some because I didn't know whether I should leave a tip that reflected her level of service

or if I should leave a tip that would possibly make her day a little bit better. And so I would be curious to hear what you would do. Thank you so much, good bye. Yeah, here's my take on it. I deal with this a little bit in New York City with taxi cabs. And sometimes you have a horror or Uber or a lift or I sometimes you have a horrible ride and I'm telling myself I'm gonna,

you know, I hear the voice in my head piping up with, I'm gonna dip this guy, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not saying I've never done that because I'm sure I have. But when I'm in my, one of my better moments, I think I try to reverse the impulse or override the impulse and give a good tip. Maybe not the best tip in the world,

but give a good tip because, A the best tip in the world, but give a good tip because, A, in my case, at least, I know they need the money more than I do. And B, I think you're, it's very, I think a smart and to use a grandiose word here, compassionate take on your part to notice that there's something going on with them

that is fueling their behavior. It's not that they're rotten to the core, they probably just haven't a bad day. So that would be my advice. And I think here, let me put a self of spin on it. I suspect it will just in the end feel better for you to have left a good tip than it will be to have stiff them. Just because I, you know, in my experience, when you do something

spiteful, it kind of stays with you for a little while. Whereas when you do something decent, there's a warm glow. It just as a quick aside, I, and I've talked about this before in the podcast, but I think it's relevant to bring up again. I try to keep ones in my pocket when walking through New York City because there are a lot of homeless people asking for money. And the pushback you get when you're handing out ones to people and one of your friends notices you're doing this is they're probably just going to use the money on drugs or whatever. And I have two responses. One is, okay, I don't know that to be true.

Maybe it's true in some cases, but whatever, they need the money more than I do. But the bigger pushback is kind of a selfish one, which is that if you're mindful, there's some psychic overhang, some pain to willfully ignoring these people who are asking you for money all over the place in New York City. So it just feels better to walk out of the street, good vibing people indiscriminately as opposed to, you know, trying to pretend you're not seeing these human beings. So yeah, that's my advice. Take it or leave it. Let's go to number two. Hi Dan, this is Justin calling from Ottawa, Ontario, just outside of the Ottawa region in Canada.

And I guess I just wanted your opinion on how you feel about some of the teachings that have been put out there by some of these teachers that are now under accusations for various things. I'm thinking, of course, against the stream, this is happening as well. And then with Shambhala, and even with that, with Tronpla Rinpoche. And so I'm not asking you to comment directly on those people or schools, but just what your thoughts are

about, you know, whether these teachings are still something that are valid, that you can take away, or if we need to view them through the lens of the options they've taken or supposedly taken. Anyways, thank you so much again. I really appreciate everything you do, and yeah, thank you. This is such an interesting subject. I will hold forth briefly on it, but first let me recommend we had a guest a few weeks ago, Scott Edelstein, who wrote a whole book about what happens when spiritual teachers stray, and he dropped a lot of knowledge on this one.

So you referenced a few things in there that I just maybe should expand upon just so listeners know what you're talking about. There have been a series of scandals recently in the Buddhist world, one involving a quite prominent and popular group called Against the Stream. Their leader was stepped down after some Me Too style accusations and they ended up disbanding the whole thing, really painful for a lot of people, including some people that I know. And then on the Shambhala organization, which is much older and much larger than against the stream, their leader or former guest on this show, similar thing, stepping aside after some disturbing allegations and it's I think

causing quite a bit of pain in the organization. And of course, the very founder of Shambhala is a guy named Trunkpa Rinpoche and it was his son. So the founder's Trunkpa Rinpoche was his son who recently got pushed out. But the dad was a very, sort of openly controversial guy who slept with his followers and drank himself to death, apparently. And so, yeah, this is a big discussion. And I think a healthy and important one to have.

I think the thing to know is that just because you do a lot of meditation and a lot of meditation and maybe even by some standards enlightened, whatever that means, doesn't mean necessarily that all of your, or to use a Buddhist term, defilements, all of the negative aspects of your mind have been uprooted. And well, by the way, if you're going by pure Buddhist definition, it means that all of the enlightenment would mean that all of the defilements have been uprooted. But so maybe these people aren't, I don't even know if I believe in enlightenment. So let me just say that.

But maybe some of these people haven't been fully enlightened. I think some of the people were talking about in this case including the no-alivine who the guy who ran against the stream. I don't think he was claiming to be fully enlightened but he certainly had done a lot of meditation and if the allegations against him are true. It would certainly it would seem to indicate that delusion and desire greed runs really deep in the human mind. And just doing a ton of meditation isn't necessarily going to uproot that stuff. And we in the right conditions will behave badly. And it's also possible, and I was having a discussion with my teacher, Joseph Goldstein, about this recently, who pointed out it's possible that in many cases, because we've had

cases of eminent teachers really misbehaving. And it's possible to be confused about in your own mind about the depths of your own enlightenment, to tell yourself that you're more enlightened than you actually are. And then everything you do, whether it's unkind or not, you can somehow justify to yourself. And so yeah, I think the takeaway for the rest of us is we should not be investing all of our faith and all of our money in one spiritual leader. And we should be aware that meditation isn't super natural. We are all still human beings and these teachers can teach us really valuable things, but they remain human beings and therefore fallible.

Does it mean that we should, and I think this is really getting to the point, to the nub of your question, does it mean we should disregard everything they ever said? Look, I've looked at some of the writings of Trunkba Rimpushe, again the founder of the Shambhala lineage, and they're amazing. And so it makes it even more confusing, but I guess I have to say I wouldn't advise you to disregard all of his teachings just because he did some things that I personally don't agree with. So yeah, this is, I think, an individual decision, a confusing, head scratching topic. I don't know that I have much more wisdom on this, but I do recommend you go back and listen to Scott's podcast because he's a really interesting smart guy and had a lot to say.

So thank you. Great questions as always, guys. Let's move on to our guest this week as advertised at the beginning. Susan Piver, she's written a book, really just trying to use Buddhism as a way to talk about how we can navigate our romantic relationships. And I found her to be incredibly impressive. And as I said before, I suspect you will too. So here she is, Susan Piver. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Thanks for coming on. Pleasure. How'd you start meditating?

I it's been a long time. I started meditating more than 20 years ago and a way before it was cool. I was meditating before meditation was cool. Exactly. I was a long time ago. Well 20 more than 20 years ago. I was just I was in a really bad accident. Car accident. Yeah, like brutal, like hit by a drunk driver, go in, say goodbye. She's not going to make it bad, bad, bad. And that's not married, married kids. No, I was a bartender in a nightclub in Austin, Texas. She's highly recommended.

Which nightclub? Antones. Is it still there? Yes. Austin's home with the blues. It was, it was a great job. It was probably the best job I ever had. I loved it. And so when you're a bartender, you go home at two, three in the morning. So they're drunk people out. So I was hit by a drunk driver. And that's not why I started meditating though, but I was very, very injured. It took a long time to, maybe even several years to heal. And at one point, my brother said, you should go to yoga.

It was a long time ago, and yoga was like, oh, maybe that means joining a cult, I'm not sure. And so I did, and I took a book with me called The Heart of the Buddha by someone called Chagyam Trunpurrampichai. Who I'd never heard of, I just was like, oh, a heart. The Buddha has a heart. That sounds interesting. What could that be about?

So can you tell people who... Chugium Trungpa is, we've talked about him on the podcast before, but for those who didn't hear those episodes, can you say a little? A hundred percent, I can. I'll, yeah. I took up a little bit, even because I never met him, but he has been such a huge influence in my life.

Chugum Trunk-Burupajay is a Tibetan meditation master who brought the Shambhala teachings to the West. And has been one of the most influential teachers of Buddhism in our lifetime, I would say. And it was a wild man and a profoundly trained scholar and a deep, deep practitioner who had the ability to cut through every form of a, you can ever imagine. And I'd never heard of him nonetheless. Just to put a pin on something to come back to this. I don't wanna underplay the wild man part of him because he's truly wild and not uncontroversial.

And so let's get into that later. But let's start. I want to. Okay. Okay. Please. Let's not forget that. All right.

So anyway, I was reading this book, The Heart of the Buddha. And I came across a passage that said something like the only possible spiritual path is your own experience. I'm paraphrasing the rest. What happens in your mind, in your heart, that is your practice. That is the path. There is no other path. Forget beliefs.

In Buddhism, I learned later beliefs are considered an obstacle. So when I read this, I was like, oh, this makes sense. This is the first thing I've ever read that actually makes sense about what spirituality might be. I must be a Buddhist. I didn't know that's what it was called. And then I, sometime after that, I left Texas and I moved to Boston or I worked in the music business.

Anyway, I, What are you doing in the music business? Oh, I worked at different independent labels as a, like a sales and marketing person or publicity or general manager. Yeah in the music business? Oh, I worked at different independent labels as like a sales and marketing person or a publicity or general manager. Which labels? Rounder. Rounder.

Is that a blues trigger? A blues label? Anton's what turned into a record label. That was a blues label. I worked at RICODISC, which was like, had Frank Zappa and all sorts of other David Bowie CDs. And Rounder was a very large independent label for all kinds of roots music, bluegrass, blues, children's music, world music, especially known for bluegrass.

Allison Kraus is their biggest artist. Fantastic. It was great. But I learned that the publisher of this book was in Boston, and that shocked me because I thought, oh, they must be in Nepal or Tokyo or New York City or something. So I, anyway, I tried to scam away to meet them because that's how I thought back then. I'm like, I got to make a plan, I got to roll my Trojan horse into Shambhala publications.

And, anyway, I did, I ended up meeting them and the publisher of became my meditation instructor, the person who published Chugyam Trunkpur Rinpoche, became my meditation instructor and is still my meditation instructor. So that's how I learned. What's that person's name? Sam Bracoltz.

Sam Bracoltz. Yeah, yeah. Close student of Chugyam Trunkpur's and my meditation teacher. So I feel even closer connection to the wild men because of that. What did meditation do for you at that point in your life? Did it make significant changes? Yeah, it always makes big changes, but they're never quite what you would think. It's not the meal you ordered. It's not the meal you ordered. Your ship has sailed, but the destination does not exist.

Now what are you going to do? Yeah, I noticed a lot of things that some of which were quite surprising, and that now as a meditation teacher, I see happening in my own students, namely that instead of becoming more stalwart in the face of challenges and more tougher, not more tougher, tougher, I found myself becoming softer and feeling more. And I was confused about that.

Why do I feel more vulnerable the longer I meditate, as opposed to more Zen quote air quotes. And you know, I learned that that is why meditation is famously associated with compassion. Even they're just sitting there doing nothing air quotes. Something happens in your heart that is very profound, which makes it a spiritual practice. In addition to slash opposed to a self-help technique. practice in addition to slash opposed to a self-help technique. So, so, did that make you less effective in the face of these challenges given that you got softer? No, it made me more present so that when things were challenging, I could actually go towards them as opposed to try to find weird ways to hide from them. But it made me more loving because when your heart is open and it's soft,

it's naturally more loving. And you're just less guarded and with all the good and bad that comes with that. Were you hitherto, were you guarded and a little less loving than, you know, maybe would have been optimal. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was. I was like, as a young person, I was like a tough girl. I was a very tough girl. I can see that. You're wearing a jeans jacket right now. Don't mess with me, man. I don't know if you remember the Guardian Angels. Yeah. I was the head of that young. Well, I'll be 47 so I'm so. Dude, you're... Wow.

Well, back in the day, I was the head of the Guardian Angels in Boston. And I was a taxi driver and I was just... I was a tough girl. Well, can you explain what the... Yeah. Because I suppose the hell is angels. The Guardian Angels. The Guardian Angels wore these like red berets and went around a public and protected

people who were being menaced by criminals. Okay, I just answered my own question. Perfect. An armed street patrol. So you were out there, the head of the Boston Guardian Angels. Don't mess with me. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I was, I don't know how I got that way, but I was just a tough girl. And in fact, when I moved, ended up moving to Texas after a year. So people said to me, you're nice. When you first know for your, we just thought you were mad all the time. Where are you from originally? Washington DC. And were you parents tough? What were you getting to know? I don't know. What do your parents do? What were that? Middle class Jewish. My father is a doctor and my mother's a housewife.

I don't know how these things happen. Black sheepery. And the music business, filled with all sorts of grifters, so you have to be tough. Back then, especially, it was the Wild Wild West. And I ended up being in the music business because I was driving across the country

looking for happiness and my car broke down in Austin, Texas. being in the music business because I was driving across the country, you know, looking for happiness. And my car broke down in Austin, Texas. I thank God that it broke down there and not any number of other places. And I got a job at this barn. My Faganto unfold for me from that. It's interesting though, the, because you can see some roots of your subsequent turn into Buddhism in the decision to join the Guardian Angels, because you were tough, but you're actually looking to use that toughness and defense of the not so tough. That is a beautiful interpretation, and it happens to be true as I reflect now. And yeah, and when I read that thing in the heart of the Buddha,

the only possible path is your life. That spoke to me because I was always very independent-minded. And I just wanted to do things a particular way. I wanted everything to have some meaning. I didn't go to college because I thought it was, I was terrible at school, but I also thought it was a waste of time. And I always held my own mind to myself for good and bad reasons.

And so when I read this about Buddhism that that was considered a positive quality, it really touched me. It really made me feel at ease and I showed me a way to work with my own nature that wasn't about changing it, but about harnessing it, and like with the guardian angels, for the benefit of not only myself, but for others. Did starting meditation make you less likely to go out on patrol with the guardian angels? Or were you able to find a way to marry those two? Well, they did not happen at the same time.

The learning to meditate happened five or six years after the Hagarian Angels experience had ended. I see, I see. But so we got on this whole Jagg because we were talking about how it changed you. So do you think some of this toughness was maybe counterproductive and interpersonal relationships and the meditation having a myriad ofative effect if that's even a word

Ameliorative I believe is a word and it did have that effect. I Well, I you don't have to go to college to know whether it's a word. I like that. I went to college and I didn't know $50 words are available to every yes, they are yes, got 50 bucks. You got it Yeah, it's often me in a lot of ways I Yeah, it's often me in a lot of ways. I, yeah, I wasn't a loner-y kind of person. I don't mean to make it sound too romantic, but I wasn't that interested in connecting deeply with others. You know, I was just on my own.

But meditation practice showed me not directly and not immediately, and it wasn't quite this black and white, but that it was okay to connect with others that one could do it in from within one's vulnerability as a gesture of power. Trinkham Trinkham and Pichet once said the only true elegance is vulnerability, which is a fascinating statement that I think about all the time and how, yes, it is quite elegant to be vulnerable and can be a sign of strength and a superpower and also a source of joy, not just a strange kind of weakness that you might show, only the people that you feel safe around.

How so could unpack that for me? Mm-hmm. Well, we're meditators. So our meditation practice unpacks it, I think. So you're meditating, you're focusing on your breath, which I think for both of us is the object of the practice, and then your mind strays. Okay, then you notice that.

That's really great. And then you let go of whatever it is straight to and you come back. And the coming back is very profound. There's a moment where there's nothing. You're in a gap. You let go and you come back. So something in you has said, Hey, you're supposed to be meditating. Where does that come from? This is a long-winded answer to your question, but something cuts through and says, you're supposed to be meditating, you're thinking. So where does that wakeful view come from?

I don't know the answer, but I do know from my experience that it is also where love comes from, and inspiration, and creativity, and insight, and the ability to be innovative, and intuition, and instinct, and all these all the powerful things that cannot result from thought, the result from space. So that space is equal to vulnerability in a certain sense because you're not clinging to a story about this or that. You're not clinging to hope or fear. You're clinging to a story about this or that, you're not clinging to hope or fear, you're clinging

to nothing. So that is very vulnerable. And thus, because of its connection to these other potent qualities, could be said to be quite elegant. I think that was all really interesting, Anna, but it's kind of high level, right? And so let me put it, let me, let me, me as is my want go to the lowest level possible I'm so excited Actually, I'm just kidding when I say lowest level possible, but I'm I'm actually writing a book now about kindness Which I define as not being a Jerk although I use a word that starts with a that I'm not allowed to say on the podcast

and I think the big concern about Being soft, which is the word you used early on in this, is that you will be run over. And so you as a self-described tough girl, how did you walk that line and what should our listeners do with what I imagine is a widely held fear slash assumption? I'll tell you a very short story to illustrate an answer. You can tell long story.

This is a podcast. I wrote a book that I wrote a couple years ago, more than a couple of seven or something, and it was a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible experience. They've given me a lot of money because the book I wrote, my first book by Fluke became a New York Times bestselling book. What was it called? The hard questions, 100 essential questions to ask before you say, I do. Oh, that's good. Yeah, just came out of nowhere. And so lots and lots of money, lots and lots of expectations and they hated my book that

I wrote, hee hee did. And basically I'm sure I can't say this word on the podcast either. You can actually just say, you know, you can say whatever you want, we'll bleep it. You won't get in trouble. I am a Disney employee if I say that I get in trouble. Okay, cool. I'm not. Yes, go for it.

Okay, thank you. So I had in a meeting with the publisher they said basically you Just get me a manuscript that I like that was the actual So I was like oh my whole career was just over All my money was gone. It was getting run over Run over. I walked out of the building. I was shaking. I was crying and By happenstance I happened to walk into somebody I knew, a friend of mine, who's awesome, who doesn't even live in New York City, who is a long time Buddhist practitioner, quite

senior to myself, and a wonderful friend who used to work in publishing. So you would know exactly what I was talking about. So he took me to eat and like, dad my tears or whatever. And I said, my practice must be so weak if one can just knock me off my seat in one sentence. And he said, oh, so you think that not getting upset is a sign of progress along the path? And I said, yes. He said, no.

He said, the sign of progress is how quickly can you turn toward what you feel? I think he also said something like, do you think of the Dalai Lama Stubbs as to? He doesn't jump around going out. That's right. Pretty sure he does. Yes. Well, he's told me himself that he gets into bad moods. There you go.

So we can all feel quite a bit for more fruition. I would say to get into bad moods. There you go. So we can all feel quite a bit for more permission, I would say, to get into bad moods then. But he said the sign of progress is not how is not no feeling. It's about how quickly can you turn toward and just be completely lean in and become one with that feeling, like embrace it. Not to like it or not to make it go away

but to feel it completely because feeling without the story is the road to metabolizing pain. Yeah another way to say that is what you don't see clearly what you don't turn toward owns you and drives you blindly. And so whatever powerful emotion from elation to sorrow, it's there. If you don't reckon with it, it's gonna control you from your blind spots. Yes, I would modify the word reckon to if you don't feel it.

Yeah. Because if you reckon with it, that's already, you tip me away from it. I'm gonna. Thank you. But feel it. Yeah. Because if you reckon with it, that's already, you tip me away from it. How I'm gonna do it. Thank you. But feel it. So that's another connection between meditation practice and the heart. It's not, mindfulness is a great word,

but you know, heartfulness or feeling fullness or some other silly word is more accurate because I think. I think about the heart. I've always had a problem with the word heart. In fact, I sometimes, even with my own company, it's 10% happier company, I like banned the word heart. Because it's like, what does it even mean?

It's all happening through your mind anyway. What does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. I have a guy, well, you're absolutely right about that. What is the mind? Show me your mind, right? But heart has so many syrupy connotations to it. That I have a lot of problems with it.

That's why I'm careful about it. But what do you mean when you say heart as opposed to mind? Well, first of all, when great Buddhist teachers say mind, they point to the heart. So there's some sense that this is actually where things originate. Yes, except for if you temporarily, the head is where the activity, the cognitive activity is happening.

I think also where emotions register too. Based on neuroscience. Okay. Well, don't take my word for it. Don't say, okay, because I don't want to. I don't know, so I'm taking your word for it. Because you said it very thoroughly. I know, but that's the problem.

A news anchor, I'm trained to say things like I know what I'm talking about, but often I don't. My next book is going to be called This is My Theory Based on Nothing. There you go. I like that. That should be the unspoken caveat over everything I say. That should be the title of every book I ever wrote. So we share that.

So I think loosely, and this is a construct. So grains of salt, hunks of salt, there's sort of three kinds of intelligence. There's intellectual intelligence. There's emotional intelligence, so called in this intuitive or instinctual intelligence. And I think we all have all three. We all are intuitive and heart-full and emotional and have the ability to think about things. And sometimes, you know,

we choose one of those intelligences over the others. And so when I say heart, I mean, just the ability to feel and emotional intelligence. It's probably not worth getting into too much of a fight over terminology because. Let's. No, that's not gonna be helpful to anybody, but so we'll just agree to disagree. But I don't actually disagree that I think you just said. I retain the opinion that heart is a tricky word

for some people. Anyway, having said that, let's get back to the question. You were doing a beautiful job of addressing before I completely derailed you about being a pushover. Once you've become, quote unquote, softer or more vulnerable, you were telling this story about the description with your run in with this foul mouth publisher. Did you, I mean, notwithstanding the fact that you definitely made you cry in the moment, but did you find that you actually didn't have as stiff a spine as

you ought to have had ultimately? That's what I feared, because I was devastated. But it was very helpful for me to hear that a stiff spine was not actually, was contraindicated here because it was painful. So that my most expedient way through it was to feel hurt and enraged and to freak out and scream and yell and just go through it. I mean, yeah, same with heartbreak. I wrote a whole book about that. The wisdom of a broken heart about how, you know, that there are certain states

we find ourselves in that we cannot game. No matter how good your game is, you cannot game it by explaining it away or extracting yourself. Exactly. Grief, rage, love. Can't be gameed. Can't make them be there when they're not and can't make them the opposite. You can't make them be there when they're not, and can't make them the opposite. You can't make them be there when they're not,

and you can't make them come back. You can't gain them, they just overtake you. So then what do you do? So I feel like a practice really prepares you for those moments of grief and loss and rage, because all you can do is be aggrieved and enraged and try not to do harm. And you feel that ultimately from a professional standpoint, you ended up making a better decision based on going through it and feeling everything rather than doing whatever you might have done previously.

No, I do not feel that way. I feel that I managed to take care of myself so that I wasn't permanently injured, although I did sort of say I'm never going to write again, and I didn't for quite a while. But it enabled me to find some balance and some sense of my own worth again, which is quite useful. Speaking of your writing, I'm noticing that the big through line is romantic love. It is through line, you're right. Why is that? Because so confusing. It's so confounding.

The Buddha didn't say much about the subject, did he? Exactly. He did not. He, for the record, left his wife and child and went off to become a Monk when he was he was like 27 or something like that and really rich and well this is with the legend Says who knows but the legend is he was some prince and had a wife and kid and then ran off to become a monk and left them ultimately according to the scriptures They joined his monastic order, the wife,

but he's not like he went off to a long, romantic career. He was then celibate for the rest of his life. So he didn't have much to say. Right. So nonetheless, agreed, 100%. Nonetheless, there are extraordinary Buddhist teachings on love, on compassion, on kindness. You're writing a book about that yourself, so I'm sure you know, there are extraordinary teachings, not on what kindness is as a function of your neurobiology, but on how to be kind. Yeah, but it applies to romantic love, but it's not specifically about romantic. That's right. That's where I come in. Because, you know, I'm not a monastic, and trying to be in a marriage. I'm trying to be a person. I'm trying to bring all of my life to the path, not as unprincipled, but because it's the only thing that seems to make sense.

So I just discovered through my own life that these teachings could apply to relationships. When I said before, why was this such a through line? You said it's still confusing. What do you mean by that? Relationships are really nutty and hard. And you love someone one minute, and then you don't really like them the next. And most people don't seem that happy in their relationships. And you fall in love, you make this long list of qualities. You want in in their relationships and you fall in love, you make this,

you know, long list of qualities you want in someone and then you fall in love with someone that is none of those qualities or, you know, you, it's just mysterious. Is it maybe a better word than confusing or equally as good? It's quite mysterious. Like the short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time here on Earth? And what really is the best cereal?

These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is Short with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists,

and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest It's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff Like if you had a sandwich named after you what would be on it? Follow life is short wherever you get your podcasts

You can also listen to ad free on the Amazon music or wonder yeah So what have you learned About relationships. Yeah, through all of your writing and study and being in relationships and teaching and will give us some takeaways here. Well, one of the things I've learned is that strong emotion is a source of power. That was very helpful for me to hear because I didn't want to think I was supposed to become some flatline emotional person in order to be happy or a Buddhist or something, but especially in the Vajrayana,

in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, strong emotion is seen as a kind of superpower, not like being super intense and wildly emotional all the time, but that strong emotions contain the seed of wisdom. There are certain Buddhist traditions, as far as I can tell, that consider strong emotions to be afflictive, and there are other Buddhist traditions that consider strong emotions to be powerful, and everybody's right. It just sort of depends on where you, the teachings that speak to you. Or is everybody's right because it actually just comes down to your relationship with the emotion? And your play, your progress along the path, not that one is further along than the other.

But some people are completely shredded by their emotions. And to take a view, these are afflictive and need to be pacified can be very useful. Other people are not, but find themselves in possession of emotions that are not subject to reason. And it's helpful to find a way to work with those emotions for their power. How will you, what's the power? Well, one way of looking at it is that taken in one from one view, strong emotions are poisonous. Strong emotions meaning anger and fear and even love can be thought, it can be kind of poisonous because it can be blinding to, it can be a result of a lot of grasping.

Well, think about it. We think about the way love is described, blinded by love, love sick. Exactly. So in the Tibetan Buddhist view, the Vajrayana Buddhist view, there's this idea that each strong emotion that has a poison also has a corollary that is a medicine. And so the substance itself doesn't change. It's just the way you look at it. It's like aspirin is a medicine. And so the substance itself doesn't change, just the way you look at it, it's like aspirin is a medicine. If you take a billion aspirin, it's a poison. If you take two aspirin, it's a medicine. So aspirin hasn't changed. So the same substance can be a poison or a medicine. So for example, anger, which is the most difficult of the strong emotions I find. The corollary is called mirror-like wisdom, which means a kind of cold clarity, because anger, when it's writing you, obviously it's

so destructive and violent and aggressive and just look around you so you can anger does. But that same seed, it cuts through every form of non-essentials and BS. You're very clear when you're angry. There's this sharpness and this brightness that if you can lose the sort of storyline or the, I hate to use word ego because it's such a confusing word and just use that power of clarity then you have something wonderful. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think.

I mean, what do I know? But yeah, absolutely. But when it comes to relationships, how are these strong emotions? Power, up power? I don't know that there are power in any way other than what I said, that they have some sort of quality that can be useful. You can find the core of them that is useful. But they do arise in relationships all the time. So having some way of relating to them, not just as problems,

but as potential allies is useful. Tell me about the new book. The new book is called The Four Noble Truths of Love, and it's completely made up by myself. So I just want to say, the Buddha didn't say these things. I kind of think, and I would love you or somebody to correct me if I'm wrong, that it's the first book about relationships written by a Buddhist teacher who is also a wife. So I've been a Buddhist and a wife for about the same amount of time. And at one point in my marriage, it was just bad. We just couldn't get along. Like the smallest things would provoke arguments.

It wasn't even like we had anything to fight about, but we didn't like each other. It went on for months. Everything one said pissed the other off. Even once we even argue, we even argued about what time it was. That's hard to argue with that. Was there like were you on one side of the the the burritty inverse? No, we were like in the same house. I so I just didn't know what to do. I was sitting at my desk. This is literally crying. Just know what to do. I was sitting at my desk, literally crying, just, I thought we loved each other. What happened here? Maybe it's over. I don't even know how to begin fixing this. Because we tried lots and lots of things. And then my next thought was, you know, one

of those mystery voices that said begin at the beginning. At the beginning are for noble truth. And to God. So I'm like what are you talking about? What does that even mean? How can the for noble truth? You know, life is suffering. The cost of suffering is grasping. There's it's possible to stop grasping.

And the fourth noble truth is there's an eightfold path. Just just for people who aren't steeped in Buddhism. These the for noble truths were the, basically, the first stick, the Buddha, uttered upon enlightenment. He got enlightened. He didn't know whether he was gonna go teach anybody about how to do it, because he thought people

were basically too stupid or too diluted, and then he decided, oh, there are probably a few people out there worth finding in teaching. And he went and found some buddies who he used to meditate with, and he unfurled his four noble truths, which you just described. Exactly. They are the very first teachings, just as you say, and the entire Buddhist path is based

around them. I'll just say them a little bit slower, because I kind of rush through them if you don't mind. I don't mind. First noble truth, life is suffering. Can I stop here for a little bit? Would you? Because suffering is often mis-translated. Yes, it is suffering. Can I stop you for a little bit? Would you? Because suffering is often mistranslated.

Yes, it is. So go ahead. It doesn't mean life sucks. That is not the first Noble Truth. It means that everything changes. There's nothing solid to hold onto, and that is painful. So have you heard other words besides suffering? Yeah, unsatisfactory.

Unsatisfactory is a good one. Yeah, it's unstable. It's unsteady. That's a fact. First Noble Truth is called the Truth of Suffering. The second Noble Truth is the cause of suffering, which is called grasping, which basically means pretending that the first Noble Truth is not true. And the third Noble Truth is called the cessation of suffering, which says, you could stop. Now that you know the cause, you know, the cure, just stop doing that, stop grasping, of course, much more complicated than that. And then the fourth noble truth is how to do that. It's called the eightfold path. And it includes things like right view, right intention,

right speech, which is number three, way up there, right speech, right livelihood, right speech, which is number three, way up there, right speech, right livelihood, right action, and so on. So when I thought, well, what does this have to do with my love life? I sort of thought, well, what would the progression be here? If it was to mirror the four noble truths, the statement of the problem, the cause of the problem, ceasing to have this problem, how do you do it? So the first noble truth of love that occurred to me was... Hold on one second.

Yes. So, when was this beef with your husband? Probably six or seven years ago. Okay, and you've been writing the book ever since? No, I didn't write a book. I know. It just was thought about these things and tried to do them in my own life. I see.

Okay. Book came much later. The first novel truth of relationships, and please, I'd love to hear what you think about all of it. Relationships are uncomfortable. They just are uncomfortable. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that. No, I fully agree. In many, many ways.

Right? And in many, many stages, so including including you don't even know them yet. You're about to go out like on a blind date. It's very uncomfortable. What if they like me, what if they don't like me, what if all my old relationship problems, you know, appear on our first date. And then if you fall in love, of course, that's heavenly. No question. It's just, now, it's a travel to another planet that is completely, I think, real and amazing and transformative and fantastic, but still kind of uncomfortable because everything is so heightened and you think, what did that look mean? And why did I say that word instead

of this word? It's just, it's very intense. There's a kind of, you know, heavenly quality, but also kind of uncomfortable. And then if you're in a long-term relationship, as I think we both are, the discomfort. And I know she could end it any day, but as far as I know, I'm in a long-term relationship. My relationship might have ended while we're having this conversation. Ha, ha, ha.

You will as soon as he hears it, maybe. He's such a good sport. I'm very lucky. The discomfort, I think the technical term for this is irritation. Like, there's a lot of irritation that just happens when you live side-by-side with someone. It's very small things. Why did you put your coat there? Or are you always late? There's just a lotside with someone, it's very small things. Why did you put your coat there or are you always late?

Or there's just a lot of irritation, so it's uncomfortable. So the thing that I learned after being married for like 10 years and now it's almost 20 years is this thing is never going to stabilize. We're never going to like solve some problem and then hit some love plateau and they'll just be smooth sailing. It's never going to stabilize. Why didn't anyone tell me that? That's the first noble truth. I like it a lot. It reminds me of my brother saying,

describing marriage as a multi-round tennis match that lasts forever. That's good. But I like it because I think just the appeal when the Buddha said life is suffering, it was very appealing at the time. First of all, because he didn't use the word suffering, he used the word in the language in which he spoke, the language was poly. He used the word duke, which is much more easily understood to the people he was talking than the word suffering is for the people who are listening to this. When he basically said, hey, life is gonna be difficult

if you're grasping at things that won't last. People got that and they found it reassuring because he was naming something they knew but didn't quite articulate. And when you say relationships are uncomfortable, it makes me realize, yeah, I do feel a lot of discomfort in my relationship, irritability, the discomfort of being vulnerable. And somehow I feel I felt like maybe I was the only idiot feeling this way. But having it named as a noble truth even to

phonely by Lord Piver instead of Lord Buddha is actually a Yeah, it's it's reassuring. I really appreciate that reaction and that Context for it. Yeah, I don't think we're alone in that feeling and it is reassuring and it's also like oh, it's not like a It's like a death sentence that is uncomfortable. It's just how it is Yeah, and it's a more it's not only uncomfortable, there are other things too, but so the second noble truth, then the cause of suffering, or the cause of discomfort, cause of duke, is thinking that it should be comfortable.

That's the second noble truth, thinking that they should be comfortable and stable is what makes them uncomfortable and unstable in a sense because it's like, you know, in Buddhism there's or suffering unavoidable. You lose things, things don't work out. But then there's the suffering of suffering, which I like to call the suffering, suck attached, suffering of suffering, which is what you add onto it. It sometimes referred to as a second arrow.

Exactly. I do. Of course you do. your Buddhist teacher, sorry, but the people in the audience, but I know it, which is that the story is, this guy walking through the woods, he gets hit by an arrow. And obviously that sucks, it hurts. But then he goes in this whole routine of like,

oh my God, this hurts so much. Why does this always happen to me? I'm not gonna make dinner tonight, blah, blah, blah. That is the second arrow that you insert voluntarily. Exactly. The suffering of suffering. That's the second hash. That's the sargatash right there. It's not a tasty dish. So you think, well, it's not supposed to be uncomfortable. It's supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be, you're supposed to make me happy. And I, you know, will try to make you happy. And if we could only solve this problem, usually that you have, then everything's going to be fine. That's my exact view of

marriage. It seems to be how it works. However. I don't like this one as much. Sorry. There's, yeah, solve all your problems. Go ahead, do that. But to think, well, then we will be happy because love and connection, they're always pulsing in and out of existence. They're not solid. Nothing is solid. So anyway, we'll leave that one behind because you don't like that one as well.

But it is the second Noble Truth of love that thinking they're supposed to be comfortable increases the discomfort. And the third noble truth is meeting this discomfort together is love. Because usually when there's discomfort, you look at each other. On my hand, I'm facing my palms to each other for people who can't see me. You're like, what did you do to cause this? Well, you did this and you did that and so on. Okay, good.

That's going to be a useful conversation. People should be responsible and clear about their behavior. But I would say a more loving approach is to sort of turn to stand shoulder to shoulder to look at the situation that you're in in the sense that you would look at like weather. Not that it's benign and that not the good things feel, not the bad things feel good, they don't. But to see together, oh look, now we don't like each other. Now we do. Now you like me, I don't like you.

To sort of see, be on this ride together where you're noticing the environment. Then checking yourself and checking each other for, you know, could you be more loving and kind and that sort of thing? Good. What does that mean practically? Like, you constantly having us talks where you're... I hate us talks. Okay.

So, what does this mean? How are you tracking the ups and downs if we don't like each other right now? You like me, but I don't like you. How's that happening without over-communication? Yeah, I also... I don't like that. I happen to be married to someone who really likes to talk things over. I appreciate that about him, but not a huge fan.

Although it's good, it's useful. I'm happy to hold my feet to the fire, usually. It just means acknowledging. You can talk about it if you're those kinds of people, but it just means sort of, okay, this what's happening right now. And this is where we are. But how do you acknowledge and get together? You're actually talking about it.

You could talk about it or you could just be in it. But what if one of you isn't in it? And how do you know the other person's in it? This is part of the problem. Yeah, people, however, the most frequently asked question I get about this kind of material is, well, I'll do this, but this other person won't. How do I make them do it to? I'll look at things this way, but they don't want to. So, of course, there's no way to make us someone look at things this way. But if you show up with the willingness to be with what is happening and to work with it,

and sometimes working with it means talking about it, sometimes it means just contemplating it, sometimes it means getting away from it, sometimes it means pushing something. If you're willing to do that, it's much more likely that the other person will too, although there's no telling. The fourth novel truth. There's a way to do all of this.

It's not an eightfold path though. It is a threefold path. That is... You're economizing on that. You know, we're very busy people. It's like the four... What is it? The four hour work week or whatever it is?

It's like you're... It's embarrassing. That's right. I'm too embarrassing the eightfold path. That's hilarious. Yeah. Well, three steps, because we're busy. And these three steps are, as a meditation practitioner and a meditation teacher, came to me because they are also the three qualities of meditation, if I may say.

So the first quality is precision. Like in meditation, you place your attention on the breath. Everything that's not the breath is not your object. So you just pull it back, you know, in some kind way. It's very, very precise. And if you're not doing that, you're not meditating. So there's this particular thing that creates the foundation, and it happens to be the quality of precision.

That's one word for it. In a way. That's called clarity. Is it? Well, one of my friends, Jeff Warren, we wrote a book together. He calls it clarity. Oh, like the object of meditation being the breath

is a form of clarity. Just seeing clearly, basically. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but sorry. No, that's okay. I know meditation is called the practice of clear seeing and I'm sure it's entirely accurate. And the way you do that, as I have understood it, is to place your attention on something other

than your thoughts, and then you create the foundation. So in a relationship, precision is like, how do you create the foundation? Like what is the foundation? It sounds kind of trivial, I think, but I don't think it is. I would say it's good manners, like profound good manners, which means actually thinking of the other person and considering what might be going on with them and making some allowance or not depending on your choices. Relationships are hard, but it's also very kind.

And I'd say if you don't have good manners in this sense, it's very hard to have a relationship with someone. But I feel like we have a really good relationship. And I think that on some levels, my manners are really good. But I don't know that I spend a ton of time just gaming out where she is right now, and what could I do that would be useful. Well, maybe you don't... You can admit this publicly.

Well, I don't tell. No, that's fine. But maybe you don't spend time, like, let me take 10 minutes and think about where she is and what but It could be more in the moment more in the way you act in the way you make choices and that you have some you make space for this person in your in your life I do that. I think I could probably I really hope she's not listening to this. I think I could probably improve quite vastly in this area. Like what makes you say that? What makes me say that? I think sometimes I view her,

Sturman Drung, her emotional churn as getting in a way of peace and quiet, emotional churn as like getting in the way of peace and quiet or dealing with my much more interesting issues Obviously, yeah, I think if I'm being honest probably there are times where that's the case Yeah, so that would be an interesting experiment at the very least go what if I didn't do that One out of ten times you know There've been times where she's really an extremist where she she had breast cancer and a oh my and

Will's had a big infertility struggle and so there have been times where that wasn't the case We're actually like that was top again. I was really motivated and interested and actually that felt Very good and I would describe one of my biggest flaws as sort of a lack of generosity of spirit, as sort of stinginess emotionally. And it was interesting in those periods to watch my mind because I was generous and it felt really good. But it's also interesting and a little depressing to see how I can fall back into my old habits once we're more in the sort of day-to-day Wows yeah, yeah, it's human, but you know you have this capacity. It's proven

So I'm not saying that you or I could do that all the time every day, but And I'm sure she knows I mean, I don't know her and I don't even know you really but But I can tell you that you should trust my take more than hers. Well, I guess as you both know that when push comes to shove, it's there. Well, now it's been proven. It's true. And she was never in question for her. She's actually like incredibly compassionate and generous.

So we are good fit in that sense. Which it's like, you know, Mother Teresa Mary to pull pot. That is very funny and hard to believe, but it's an awesome visual. Yeah, I'm not sure where I was, but. So you're talking about profound good manners. And honesty is the second piece of precision. It doesn't mean being stupid and blurting things that you think, the many think, that

means knowing the truth as best you can about how you feel and what you want and sharing it in some skillful way. If you're in a relationship with someone that doesn't have good manners and can't be honest, you could hang out and have a lot of fun, but it would be hard to have a relationship. It's basically another way of saying trust. Yeah. Yeah. Trust. Doesn't feel safe if you really can't, if you don't know if the person is telling you the truth.

And if you don't even know if they're thinking about you. Right. Right. So the second piece is called Openness, which is Rouse 3 Meditation Practice. And I'm saying this about meditation because I find meditation to be a path to love, which I know sounds trite, but it's not just like the self-help technique that makes you have less stress hormone, cortisol, or whatever. It is this thing that makes you more loving and more kind.

And how does sitting on the ground doing nothing, quote unquote, do that. How does it do it? How does it do it? Well, you sit there and the instruction is not to feel good. It's also not to stop thinking because who cares? You're going to have thoughts. Your mind exists to make thought and meditation is not about telling yourself to shut up. There's just no part of the instruction.

Instead, the instruction is to be with yourself as you are without an agenda. And this agendalous piece is quite, has a lot of consequence. So you say, okay, I'm cranky and miserable. I'm going to sit with that person, and now I'm happy and calm. I'll sit with that person.

And I'm not going to try to manipulate anything. It's going to be here, experiencing things. That's you soften towards yourself. You're usually really pushing ourselves, critiquing ourselves, condemning ourselves, shoving ourselves in particular directions. And you know, meditation is not self-help. It's like jumping off the self-help treadmill and just resting from it. Yeah, I mean, I have written about this that it's like

the opposite of the power of positive thinking. It's like the power of negative thinking. And that's the glib. But thinking, it's like the power of negative thinking. That's the glib, but it's about seeing clearly the good and the bad as opposed to willing yourself into via your vision board into non-stop Corvettes and trips to the Bahamas. Which would be awesome. Yeah. However. Not the way the universe works. Not the whole picture anyway. Yeah. so you soften toward yourself. It's very profound. It sounds very simple and it is, but in my observation of myself, and now I have an online community with close to 20,000 people.

I've taught a lot of people how to meditate. I see it constantly that that tiny gesture of softening toward yourself makes you soften toward others. So a wall comes down and you feel more kindly or you feel more and you feel more clear, more clearly about what you see. Your emotions are more clear to you because you're not masking them and all sorts of nutty stuff, at least for a few moments. Right, right, that's a key thing to say. So, first one is precision.

Precision. And then, where was the good manners? That's precision is comprised of good manners, honesty. I know it's complicated. Okay, okay, it's comprised of good manners and honesty. And then the second part is openness. Which in meditation, that's what it is. And in love, I found this quite shocking

that there was somebody else there, that there's this other person in the relationship. And to be open to that person as having at least equal importance to myself. I mean, I know that sounds glib, but it was kind of shocking. And so it required a lot of, I still working on it because I'm not much of an us person, but to be open to him as having equal importance in whatever situation we were in has been quite a useful thing to be able to do. And the third step is called going beyond, going beyond conventional thought. In meditation, clearly you just let go of thought constantly to come back to the breath. And the conventional view I think of relationships is that you

should always try to deepen love. And I just find that impossible because it just comes and goes. And the romantic part always ends, just does. But the thing that doesn't end is intimacy. Like that can always deepen. And everything you encounter, just like every kind of thought you can encounter in your mind can be used in your practice. You can work with it, you can let it go, you can come back to the breath.

In a relationship, everything that happens outside of abuse and addiction, which are exempt from this theory, you can use to deepen intimacy, the way you know each other and what you show about yourself and intimacy has no end. You never get to like, oh, we finished that part. No, and that brings completely true from just based on my own experience, like going through not only the infertility thing with Bianca, but then having a baby, which is amazing, but also totally disgusting. And then, you know, breast cancer and mastectomy.

Oh, my God. Actually, I would say all of that was just boosted intimacy. For sure, beta, I really should have a lot better. That's amazing. I don't know the shoots. I think she would say that. I don't want to speak for her, but for myself. That's amazing and wonderful and not true for everyone.

Well, I'm a superior to being, and that helps a lot. I thought that went without saying, but you just said it. Yeah, no, no, I like to say it. And I'd like to say it's a Bianca. So she loves hearing it. She does, she really does. I'm always asking her, like, why do I think I'm so much funnier than she thinks I am?

Does she have an answer? She has a patented eye roll. Yeah. I can hear it from the other room. I can start hearing it too. So I really like, you ask me what I thought. I like your schema. It's, it's, glad. So I really like I really you asked me what I thought I like I like your schema

Glad did it help you in your marriage? Absolutely it really did it was when I was as crying at my desk thinking what am I gonna do here? Looking at it this way. I mean it didn't sort of spring up like this in my mind, but okay, it's not going to be stable. It's not going to be comfortable. I could work with a discomfort. I could drop the expectation that it should be comfortable. I could go into it with him or just by myself if he does, if he's not going to. And then I have the skill set for as a meditator that I think I can also bring to this. But the thing that really turned it around, the moment it turned around,

because I remember it, it's rare that there is a moment. But I was going to do loving kindness practice. I was going to do meta, mitery practice. You know, may you be happy and so forth, and you, the practice traditionally begins with yourself, you wish yourself well, and you think of someone you love, and you wish them well. Then you think of someone you don't know, but you can sort of picture, but you don't have any feelings about them, and you wish them well. And then you think of someone you hate, and you wish them well too, which doesn't mean you forgive them.

It just means something else. So I was going to do loving kindness practice, and I realized I could put him in every position. And I did. I did it for myself. I did loving kindness for him as a loved one. I did loving kindness for him as a stranger, because he's quite a stranger to me many times. And I did loving kindness for him as an enemy, which just means... Difficult person.

Difficult. And the most fragile part of him and myself creates the most difficulty. So, and then I did loving kindness for us. And then I didn't tell him, I didn't talk about it, but I noticed and it could be totally a coincidence when he came home that night because I work at home and he works outside of the house. It was different. It was different. There was a softness. It was only, it was just like,

he got me a glass of water. I mean, it was something so simple, but there was just this moment. There was no talking, which I prefer. It was just this. Me too. See, you're not alone in that. Yeah.

There was some connection reestablished in, the loving kindness practice very potent. In our remaining time, there are two things I want to do. First, to pull the pin out of the wild man discussion. Oh, yes. Thank you for remembering that. So, yeah, no, this is one of my few skills. I can remember things. Actually, I have a terrible memory, to be honest, but in these interviews, I can remember to come back to things. So your teacher, who you didn't know, but his name was Chou-gyang Trunkba Rinpoche, Tibetan guy had escaped Tibet in the Chinese invasion, actually quite a traumatic exit from Tibet, then ended up coming to the west and being a very prominent teacher, created an organization that still exists in its thriving called the Shambhala Organization that teaching centers all over the country, maybe in Canada, in the world. They published magazines, lines were magazine, some guys from the organization

are also in charge of mindful magazine. And we've had many Trumpa accolades and followers on this show. And I always have to ask because he was, again, I said, you cannot underplay the wild man. He drank himself to death. He would sleep with the wives of his followers. I think he had a marriage. It was pretty tumultuous in his personal position who cared for him during his followers. Mm-hmm. I think he had a marriage. It was pretty tumultuous in his personal position who cared for him during his own death, and it had marrying the woman he was married to.

And may have fathered the child. I don't know, there's a whole, there's a whole, there's a lot going on here. His wife wrote a book. Dragon Thunder. Yeah. So it's funny I have a thing about Kanye West recently referred to both him and Donald Trump as having dragon energy. Trump or Rumpushe had some dragon energy. Well, I will agree with the last thing you just said wholeheartedly. Yes, he did. So how how do you he did some things that were questionable by any measure? Oh, yeah, how do you he did some things that were questionable by any measure. How do you explain that?

Yeah, I'll tell you how I explain it. But first, I mean, just to indicate the wild man part, one time, and these are all stories I've heard because I never met him. As I said, he was there in some bar, they were drinking, he and some of his students, they came outside, They were drinking, he and some of his students, they came outside, getting their car, I don't know, out in the country somewhere. Someone dissed him for being non-white and they had some words and Trump Rupert J was like taunting him. And the guy pulled out a shotgun and held it up and said, you don't want me to come after you.

It was like leaning in the car window at him. And according to the story, Chowky and Trunkwood took his hand and pointed the gun at his own forehead and said, go ahead. And then obviously didn't shoot him, but he was a crazy man. I've heard it explained in a million ways and I'm gonna be interested to hear your explanation.

But one of them is that he was traumatized by that exit from to bed. So there are all sorts of things. Yes, first let me just say about having sex with the students. I've heard that many, many times. I know people that had sex with him. The thing that I think makes him different, or I'm not saying better or worse, but different than other teachers, is that there was no hiding.

Nothing was hidden. There was no question. There was no, nothing was behind closed doors There was no question. There was no... Nothing was behind closed doors in terms of... Yeah, we're sleeping together. There was not... It's not like other teachers say, don't sleep with people and then sleep with people. This was completely out in the open for better or worse. Is drinking? I don't know. I don't know. So, I've heard... What I've heard people say, like you have heard many explanations, he was a crazy wisdom master who would do whatever it took to wake his students up, including having sex with them. Okay. He was a meditation master who was also a flawed human being,

and you can feel both of those things in his presence, and that's just how it is. He was a complicated person. Okay. Theory number two. Theory number three. He was a shister. He was a charlatan of some kind. He used his students. He hurt them. And then he died from alcohol. Yeah, but I think if you read his writing, that's the thing. It's hard to... That's what makes him such a mystery because if you read his writing or listen to what he said, these are the words of somebody who I don't know that you could, yes, he had a lot of study in the Tibetan tradition and maybe could have been making some of the, could have just regurgitating in a different form, some of the things he learned as a child, but it really does seem to strongly indicate that this is a guy with a lot of

meditative attainments. I could not say it better myself. Extraordinary. Life changing. Right now I'm reading the very first book. I ever read it once I became a Buddhist which is called Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism and it is blowing my mind. You know, word for word, line for lines, like, oh my God. So we have the various theories. He was traumatized by leaving Tibet, hadn't heard that. Totally plausible. Here's my explanation. Every time I've thought, oh, that's who that guy was.

He was a crazy wisdom master. I was a crazy wisdom master and a few flawed human being. I immediately learned something else about him that makes me think, oh, that's not the whole, that's not right. So my conclusion is I will never know who that guy was. Period. My relationship to him is through his teaching. His teachings have changed my life. I have never had a moment of doubt and I'm a doubter or questioning of whether these teachings are powerful and useful. Absolutely life changing. So that's who he is to me. Who was he? And I have students who say, how could you be a shambola person? Wasn't he, you know, having sex with people and stuff? I'm like, I don't know who that guy was.

I just know who he is to me and you make your relationship to him. Whatever you decide, that's your relationship. I'm in a state of agnosticism. Go for it. And admission and then my final question. The mission is that I like, I didn't really know much about you before I met you. I don't, people are always constantly pitching me to people who have been on the podcast and I can't remember why I was like, oh yeah, I heard of you, but I didn't really know

anything about you, but I'm super impressed, you're amazing. So I'm really glad you came in. So thank you. I loved it, I really have. Thank you. So the final thing is just what I kind of facetial to refer to as the plug zone.

So can you just give us the download again on the download on the new book and then give me every other book you've written and then where can we find you on the internet on the new book and then give me every other book you've written and then where can we find you on the internet and everything else, like anything you want to say. Retreat you lead whatever, this is it, everything we want, everything we can know. Thank you very much. Well, my new book is called The Four Noble Truths of Love. It is out now, basically.

The book I wrote before that is called Start Here Now, an open-hearted guide to the path and practice of meditation, and the wisdom of a broken heart. And I wrote a book called How Not to Be Afraid of Your Own Life, which was sort of the first Buddhist book I wrote, which my father charmingly thought was How Not to Be Afraid of Your Own Life. It was very interested in reading that book. Very disheartened to find that wasn't it. So I also have an online community called the Open Heart Project that I can't join.

I can't join that. Sorry. You're not invited. Or I just started sending meditation instruction videos to anyone who asked for them. Now there's close to 20,000 people who are in the open heart project community. It's still free. Goes out once a week.

You can find all of this on my website, which is just my name, susanpiver.com. Awesome. So next time I have my wife, can we get you on the horn? And can you agree with me? How's that? Part A, yes. Part B remains to be seen.

Oh my god. Okay. You did a great job. Really appreciated. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. Okay, you did a great job, really appreciated. Thank you so much. My pleasure, thank you. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe, rate us.

Also, if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Tohan, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members.

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