Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 155: Strauss Zelnick, Becoming Ageless

Episode Date: October 3, 2018

At just 32 years old Strauss Zelnick became the president and chief operating officer of 20th Century Fox. He was young, successful and appeared to have it all, but internally he was struggling. Zelnick says he was unhappy, anxious all the time and drinking every night. Now, nearly 30 years later, Zelnick remains super successful and thanks to his daily physical and spiritual practice he's become the picture of health. Zelnick reveals his secrets in his new book Becoming Ageless: The Four Secrets to Looking and Feeling Younger Than Ever and discusses them with Dan in this interview. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT I'm Dan Harris. On the show this week, the individual who has had the single largest impact on my personal health in recent years, and he's going to talk about the connection between spirituality and health.

Strauss Delnaik is coming up, first one piece of business, and then your calls, and then we'll get to Strauss. The business is a cool new feature on the 10% happier app. You can now set up a Shortcut via Siri if you've got if you're using an Apple device where you can just tell your phone or your HomePod that you want to play a specific meditation like the meditation of the day or Meditation to help you sleep and it will just pop right up. It's awesome. It's great use of AI before the robots take over and kill all of us. All right, let's get to your phone calls. Here's number one. Hey, Dan. This is Jay in Charlotte, North Carolina. My question is related to comments you've

made in the past about healthy levels of anxiety and how we achieve a high level of success at work. In light of our practice, when you start learning about not clinging words like passionlessness and renunciation, it just seems that any level of anxiety or stress related to achievement work is a form of suffering. And I'd love to hear you talk more about that. Thank you. Bye bye. Here's my take on that.

It's a great question. I spent a lot of time reminiding on this. My take is that a certain amount of stress makes sense. A certain amount of suffering is just part of the deal when you're trying to do something great or important or just a feed your family. But we tend to make that worse than it needs to be. And mindfulness is a great way to have an inner telescope that tells you that gives you a sense of when you've crossed the line between useless rumination,

or rather when you've crossed into useless rumination from a territory that I often like to refer to as constructive anguish. So there's a certain amount of constructive anguish out there, but you gotta know when it doesn't make any sense anymore. And Joseph Goldstein, the eminent meditation teacher often encourages people to use a little mantra of, is this useful? So on the 97th time you're worrying about something related to work, maybe just ask yourself,

is this useful? Have I played out the string on this particular anxiety loop? Do I, you know, I've thought about it enough, I have a plan, here's where we are. Now I'm going to bring my attention to something else. Maybe it's my child, maybe it's the food I'm eating, maybe it's my spouse. And I think in many ways I've found, in my experience, having a mechanism, an inner mechanism to notice when I've taken the stress too far has really boosted my resiliency and my focus and my ability to be right there for people I want to be

there for. So, yeah, it's a huge issue. I don't think there's some silver bullet. I don't think there's some way to magically know when you've crossed line between good stress and bad stress, but I think meditation is a really good way to have a sense of when you've done that. And as it pertains to clinging, the concept I really like is this idea of non-attachment to results.

To just to know as you're working really hard on something, and I'm not gonna say I'm an ace at this, but I do my best. I mean, working really hard at something, it makes a lot of sense to invest your time and energy and intellect into a project, but the success is really not in your hands. You can't control all the variables in a universe that is controlled by, that is characterized by entropy and impermanence. There are so many exogenous factors that can swoop in and

topple or amplify whatever plan you're working on. So I think that's where being unattached to the results starts to make sense. So do your best at whatever you're working on, but just know that you're not the, for better or worse, the King or Queen of the Universe. All right, those are my thoughts on that question, but super important. Here's number two. Hey Dan, this is Luke from Philly. I really love what you're doing and appreciate all the hard work that you put in. I do a lot of exercise, specifically running, and I think you've touched on this before that exercises isn't necessarily meditation or can't really substitute for it.

But I was wondering if you had any tips on how to be more mindful doing it. Sometimes I notice I get very lost in thoughts. And yeah, if you have any tips to make it a bit of more mindful experience, that'd be great. Thanks. As it happens, I do. do you have any tips to make it a bit of more mindful experience? That'd be great. Thanks. As it happens, I do. My new producer, the new producer of this show, Ryan Kessler, is clearly a genius because he chose this voicemail, which we'll tee up our guests this week perfectly. But to your question, my friend, yes, you can run mindfully.

I've noticed that it's harder, but it's definitely worth doing. So it involves, in my view, taking out the earbuds and not listening to Lincoln Park or whatever it is, you listen to it when you're running. By the way, I don't listen to or endorse Lincoln Park. It just came to my head. I don't know where it came into my head or why it came into my head. Anyway, you're not listening to music.

You are running. I would do a noting practice. I have done in my experiences mindfully running, a noting practice. So you're running and you're just making soft, mental notes of whatever it is, is most salient, whatever is most salient in your experience at that moment. So it might be the feeling of pressure

from your feet hitting the ground. It might be a sense of movement in your experience at that moment. So it might be the feeling of pressure from your feet hitting the ground. It might be a sense of movement in your legs. It might be a coolness of wind hitting your face. It might be noticing you've become distracted and just making a soft note of thinking, thinking. So you'd be running along, thinking, pressure, hearing, hearing, thinking, thinking, seeing, seeing, and then you're going to get distracted a million times and you just start again.

So it's not complicated, but it will bring you in in a truly meditative way to the experience of running. And so, yeah, I've done it before. I do it when I'm on exercise, when I'm on meditation retreat and I don't want to totally cheat by listening to to bread eldrige or whatever. I'm just matching bread because he was on the show recently. Then I will do a noting practice when I'm running and it is I've noticed harder because when you're listening to music you get this sort of adrenaline that you won't, at least I haven't gotten from just doing a noting practice.

But it is, in my view, that's truly a way to make running meditative. So go for it. Give it a shot. Don't listen to Lincoln Park. I'm kidding. Yes. All right. Our guest this week is Straus Zelnikik who is a personal friend. I'm going to warn you up front He is a personal friend as sometimes happens on the show Before we get into I want to talk a little bit about this I've mentioned it before we did this survey with podcast listeners and I was and I've said this before but I think it's worth repeating bold over by the magnitude of the response.

I mean hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people took time to fill out the survey. I am incredibly grateful to people who did that because it's been super useful. You're gonna start seeing over the next months and coming year, some real changes to the show. In part, because of the survey we did, and also because of the aforementioned Ryan Kessler,

we have a new producer. So there's gonna be some changes, and I think they're gonna be really great. And one of the things people told us is that, we really like to stay within the bounds of meditation, mindfulness, Buddhism, psychology. People weren't so interested in getting fitness advice for me, which is probably wise,

because if you take a look at me in person, I'm, yeah, anyway. You didn't want to have fitness guests on, because there are plenty of other podcasts that do that. So basically, where we've arrived is that we're gonna do, so nine out of 10 podcasts will be right in the wheelhouse that our listeners are telling us they want to be in. But 1 out of 10, maybe 1 out of 20, it's going to be dealer's choice. I'm just

going to do what I want to do. And this one falls in that category. Strauss is not some lifelong meditation practitioner. Although, as you're going to hear, he does a better job, in my view, of talking about the connection between a spiritual practice and an exercise practice than most. But I'm bringing him on because he's had a huge impact on me. He is 61 years old and jacked. I mean, just ripped. And also the CEO of one of the largest video game companies on earth. His take to entertainment owns Grand Theft Auto. So one of the biggest video game franchises there is. He's been in the entertainment industry was a movie mogul, a music mogul and is now in the

video game industry and takes the time to be incredibly fit with a busy professional life with a huge mentoring practice that we're going to talk about. He's incredibly generous with his time to people who need and want it with a family of three beautiful children and a wife, a beautiful wife. So he's a guy who's in the world, but taking the time to be engaged in these, in this kind of physical upkeep, in a way that I have found as his friend, incredibly inspiring, and has really changed the way I approach my physical fitness. So give him a chance. I think you're gonna find a lot here of value,

even though it may fall slightly outside the center of the bullseye for what listeners have been looking for, but I promise, if you give this a chance, you're gonna like it. So here's Strauss Zellnick. Nice to see you. Nice to be here this morning. We're gonna talk all about the book and physical fitness

and the fact that what a huge impact you've had on my physical fitness and my attitudes about physical fitness. But I wanna talk a little bit about your interior journey because it's been, I mean, everything's great for you now. The pictures are awesome of you and how ripped you are and you've got this big job that take two and you've got another company, ZMC, where you invest in media companies. But you've had some ups and downs in your life. Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, like all of us, I've had plenty of ups and downs.

I had a pretty tough childhood. Although I don't, one wants to be careful about blaming subsequent ups and downs on your background. But I had a hard childhood, and I sort of, I think one of the reasons that life is unfolded for me the way that it has is that I was working really hard to overcome the challenges of my childhood, like many of us. You tell us a little bit about it.

I lost my mother when I was quite young, my parents were divorced when I was young, went to live with another family, my aunt and uncle, and so I had a lot of upset before I was 10 years old as did my siblings. And that created some sense of motivation and not necessarily all good motivation to create a perfect picture of life. So you can trace your ambition in some way back to that feeling of rupture? I think I was probably born with some sense of ambition. And yes, I think I can trace more of a, maybe the negative parts of the drive to the rupture, maybe the positive parts of the drive to something that was inherent.

You were, and still are, but in particular, what I know about your younger days really ambitious. And successfully so. Yeah, and I think that's right, and I think I spent a lot of time coaching and mentoring people now. I don't think there's anything wrong with ambition to the contrary. I think knowing what you want is probably the factor most highly correlated with getting what you want.

And so ambition is a good thing. And I think I was also accused of being impatient. And my view is that impatience in action is probably a good thing. Impatience with regard to outcomes, not so much a good thing. And when I was younger, maybe I confused the two more than I do now. Can you break that down?

I think being ambitious is great. And I think, you know, I think people who are young being told, well, wait, your term will come. It's frustrating. It was frustrating when I was young and I would find it equally frustrating now. I think though understanding what we can and can't control is pretty powerful in life. And when you're starting from nowhere, and I started from nowhere, the way you did, with nothing, no connections, you have to work really hard to begin to create traction.

There's nothing wrong with having great ambition, and if you don't work hard, nothing will come from it. Perhaps I would have benefited from being a little more patient in the outcomes, understanding that no matter how hard I work, no matter how hard I try it, no matter how well things went, certain things are just going to take time. So just we're talking about your career. I mean, be worth, you were the youngest studio chief? I'm not sure.

So first of all, dining out, I'm being the youngest anything when your old is horrifying to me, but I don't know if that's true in any case, but I was 32 when I became president and chief operating officer of 20th century Fox. That's a pretty big job. I'm 47, I would be stressed out to have that job now. You know, stress has never really been my issue.

Plenty of concerns. So stress is actually not one of them. They also say there's good stress and bad stress when you feel like you're in control of a situation, you experience stress very differently than when you feel you're not in control of a situation. Did you feel like you're in control when you took over that job? There were days I did and many days I did not. And after all, a great title notwithstanding, I was not the most senior guy in the organization.

I reported to the chairman of 20th Century Fox and he reported to the CEO of Fox Inc. How did that job go for you? Ultimately went great. It was hard at first because I showed up. I've been president of the large stand independent film company. And so I was pretty convinced I had it all sorted out. And I knew what needed to be done. What I failed to understand was that while I saw the motion picture business as one business,

there was an enormous divide between the independent motion picture business, which is where I was well-known, respected, and successful as president of the largest company, and the major motion picture business, where I had no reputation, and my only experience had been as a relatively junior executive at Columbia Pictures previously. So, I show up in California thinking I have it all figured out and Fox was a turnaround and I did have a plan. Oh, and incidentally, I wasn't really wrong about what needed to be done. The point was not that I was wrong. What I failed to pay attention to was how to go about it. I spent a little too much time talking and not enough time listening.

And that, as it turns out, slowed down my progress and actually getting anything done. The good news is I learned and I learned from my mistakes. And while I entered poorly, I was able with the help and support of ultimately my colleagues and my boss to turn it around and I did have a successful one there. My three-year-olds really in the animals these days and we talk a lot about hippos with big mouths and tiny ears. And I'm guilty of singing hippos. Yeah, I was a hippo.

I was a hippo. So then you went on to get into the music industry from there? Actually, I left Fox to do my first start-up in the video game business. I was in 1993 and I went to Silicon Valley, which was an unusual thing to do then. And I had the view that video games would be the next huge entertainment business, and that the economics of the video game business would be a lot more beneficial than the economics of what was a very mature and today's an even more mature motion picture

business. You have to pay actors. Well, not just that. There are many attributes of the motion picture business that make it a challenging asset class and did then, and I do tend to see things as they are. And I was actually right about that. It took much, much longer for the business to develop than I'd expected. And so it was very early days. But as it turns out, I called it right.

The business in those days was probably 1993, I don't know, under $100 million business. Today it's $140 billion worldwide industry, much larger than the motion picture business or the music business. But nonetheless, you got into how did that transition happen from your first 4A into video games into going into music? So were you write too early? I May have been right too early. I certainly was right too early for my own taste. I missed running a big business

I don't think I got that out of my system yet and I was recruited by the MG which was another turnaround. It was 5 out of 6 of the music companies. It was the peak of the music business So there's a lot of excitement about it. This was 1995. And they recruited me and Crystal Dynamics was on a very good footing at that point. And there was great leadership step into my role. So even though it was only a couple years later, I felt comfortable moving on. I was still a very large shareholder. And I moved to BMG where I started, among other things, a video game business, BMG Interactive. And we as a team turned around the music business and we had record years for the company in terms of revenue, profits, market share, and Grammy wins.

By the time I left, six years later, we were number two in the business. Okay, so Resume, we've only done part of it. But just looking at your resume, you had gone to Harvard Law School You'd went on you had all these be a friend of mine calls them BBJs big big jobs and Beautiful wife who is a friend of mine and Bianca's and wonderful children But it was there was some inner sort of health and spiritual turmoil? Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, I was more than a little.

I think I was anxious all the time. I think I'm proud of myself on being the calmest guy in the entertainment business. And I certainly did come across that way. It was very little, it could rattle me. And if you're doing turn-arounds all the time, you have to be in that position. But my interior life was really spiky. And I took everything personally. It was all about me.

So any interaction was about me. How did I come across? How did I look? How did I do? Did I do that correctly or incorrectly? And whatever I did well was just to prelude to the next challenge, and whatever I did badly. That was an opportunity to really beat myself up.

I sort of described myself as an ass, I think carrying my child along with me. I was like a guy walking up a hill with a backpack full of rocks. And if a rock happened to fall out, I'd stop and pick up another one. And if I came across you, I grabbed your rocks too. When I got to the top of the hill, the only thing I experienced was there was another hill in front of me.

So if I had a win, and I had a lot of stuff that went really well, both personally and professionally, you know, I would experience it as sort of as very as momentary. And I didn't want to, I didn't want to ever take credit for it. Not truly. I mean, I might come across as someone who took credit for it, which isn't a very appealing attribute.

And I hope I don't come across that way now. But I didn't really, inside sort of the worst of both worlds. You know, I look, I look like I was super proud of myself, but I don't feel at all that way. Today I hope that I come across with some measure of humility, and I can take at least a small amount of pride in how things have gotten. How did it manifest itself this anxiety? Well, I think ultimately the way it manifested itself is I wasn't incredibly happy day to day.

I wasn't unhappy. I was really grateful for the life I had. I've never failed to be grateful every day for the opportunities that I've had for the things that have come my way. So I had gratitude, but I didn't have a lot of basic happiness. And I think I sort of hid that behind, you know, enthusiasm. You know, I always enthusiastic and upbeat. But inside, you know, I wasn't very happy. And I would mitigate that by, you know, working out hard or, you know, taking on ridiculous challenges at work.

It's one of the reasons I had to turn around because they were just so hard. It wasn't enough that I would do a good job running a business. I had to turn around in an impossible situation. Then I drank. I didn't drink endless quantities, but I drank every night. Was it just drinking? Yeah, I I drank every night. And was it just drinking? Yeah, I was just drinking mostly. Mostly, yeah. Yeah, I had my moments.

Right. And how bad did that get? Well, I never got bad. I never got bad in terms of quantity. I was always in my own bed at night and I always got up early in the morning to go to the gym. But it was not optional. I was gonna come home and have a couple of big drinks

every night and then didn't appeal to my wife among other things. But it was, the point is I couldn't take it or leave it. Uh, the process of stopping was that harder? Was it just like a, you know, I got to stop so let's just do this. No, it really, well it was hard in that I would stop for a while and then I'd find a reason to continue. And again because I didn't have any apparent issues, you know, I was encouraged by people around me, oh come on, you know, have a drink with me, which one is? Until finally I got to the point of saying, look, I don't want to be this person.

I don't want to define myself this way. I wanted to find myself differently. Or said another way, you know, am I going to be, you know, an athlete and a person at my very best? Or am I going to be a drinker? And I decided I decided I couldn't do all of those together. You talk about you've talked about athletics a couple times. We're here ostensal because of your new book, which is about the fact that we can all be athletes. Although really just a quarter of the book, but yeah. Yes, right. Absolutely. Yeah.

And the rest of the time we can treat ourselves like athletes in important ways and even mental athletes. Right, for sure. And we'll break that down in a second. But you were not always, I mean, you're pretty jacked right now, but as I understand it, you were not always this way. No, I occasionally, people, I get accused of being having great genetics and or being a natural athlete, which I find amusing in the extreme.

Great genetics, I come from a long line of insurance executives and rabbis. No professional athletes among them, near as I can tell. Natural athlete, I didn't really do sports when I was a kid. I was a student and I loved being a student and I didn't really love being active. And I was skinny, so I wasn't like I, I wasn't carrying that extra weight. I didn't have any outside imperative to lose weight to the contrary. I couldn't really keep weight on. So I did lift weights when I was a teenager just because I was so skinny. I didn't

seem to have much of an impact. I'm sure I wasn't doing it correctly. I know I wasn't doing it correctly. And I ran because I was light so I could run. I played some squash, not particularly well, which I've now picked up again. But that was it. I was primarily a student. How'd you end up getting so into it? Because you are still, you work out sometimes twice a day now. Well, I think it was a process of letting go of fear and embracing something that could be fun that I'd never thought would be fun. So I think one of the reasons that I wasn't so into sports is that I was, I wasn't a natural athlete, I wasn't gifted. And I thought I looked goofy. And if I did things that, you know, I was good at like studying or working later, I wouldn't look goofy. You know, I don't look goofy studying. I was good at it. I certainly didn't LaGoufi working,

at least not most of the time, because that went pretty well. But athletics, you know, I was afraid of how I was gonna come across. And as I get more healthy, spiritually healthy, and emotionally healthy, I let go of the fear. It's not like I looked better, you understand. At least not initially. I just let go of the fear. It's not like I looked better and you understand. At least not initially.

I just let go of the fear and that was a process and took a long time. That process took a long time. So as I let go of the fear, I suddenly thought, wow, this is fun. This is fun. And I embraced my inner goofiness. I remember I started running a few years ago. I picked up running because I really was such a bad runner that I thought, well, this is standing in the way the rest of the sports I'm doing. And I only, I don't like running much. So I hired a running coach and I went out with our morning fitness crew to run. And one of my buddies said, you actually look like a wounded animal.

And I did. And you know what? I was okay. I found it funny too. But when I was a teenager, I wouldn't have found that funny. Right. Let's talk about the book. And then I'll get to the million other sort of questions that are swirling around in

my head. In the book, you have there are four pillars to your plan for how we can all get ourselves together. Let's just kind of break those down and then I'll ask you a bunch of questions based on that. So what's the first pillar? Well, before we get into pillars, the starting point is what are you trying to achieve?

Yeah. Because if you don't know what you want, there's absolutely no point in pursuing anything in life, in my opinion. The book's called Becoming Ageless. But none of us is Ageless. We're all aging, of course. The book does not imply you're going to live forever to the contrary. In fact, being fit probably doesn't even extend your lifespan.

The implication in the book is, let's not define ourselves through the lens of age. You know, I spent a long time being young, and we talked about this earlier, and being told you're too young to do a long list of things. Well, as it turns out, that wasn't true, actually. And, you know, it seemed very quickly to switch to, now you're too old to do too many things.

And I can't tell you how often people say to me, well, you know, aren't you slowing down? You know, when are you thinking about retiring? That's not, you know, that is not based on the fact that I'm bent over and hobbling around and coughing, because I'm not. That's based on the fact that I'm 61. And people have a point of view about what it

means when you're 61. So the starting point is you don't have to define yourself through that lens. And then the book dives in and says, and here's a program that's going to keep you looking as good as you can, feeling as good as you can, being mentally clear and living your best life at any age. And the four pillars of that are taking care of your health, making sure you go to the doctor, having some kind of exercise program, and pretty flexible about what that looks like, pursuing a healthy diet, not a crazy diet, but a healthy diet, and having in their spiritual life, which I know is the thing that's most important to you, Dan, as we talk this morning,

and I think it's a crucial element in being your best self. So let's break those down one by one. The first one taking care of your health. First of all, you've heard me say this before and I probably have already said it in this conversation that just seeing you, I remember being at your 60th birthday and thinking, oh my, this, and we've worked out together a million times before, but somehow on your 60th birthday really hit me of how fit you are and I'm thinking, alright, this guy's a bunch of years older than me, but I can up my game even now, even

in my late 40s, I can be the best shape of my life. And that I found to be a really, for lack of a less trite word, inspiring thing. So the four things that I've been pursuing these subsequent to our many, many conversations about it, one of them is like, go see the doctor. Right. Which is, we shouldn't have to tell people this,

but people don't do it. That's exactly right. And there are certain screenings that will detect illnesses that otherwise are going to kill you. They're completely curable. So if you don't have a colorectal screening, you run the risk of developing cancer that is completely curable if appropriately detected. If you're a woman, you should be having if appropriately detected. If you're a woman, you should be having mammograms regularly for the same reason. The most breast cancers can be effectively treated, not all sadly, but most, if detected early. How many people do you know who say, well, I never go to the doctor. Yeah, I know I should, but I never go to the doctor. Well, that's just not going to lead to good things.

So you should get an annual checkup. You should go to your dentist and get a cleaning every six months and you should do with the doctor and the dentist says. Second pillar. The second pillar is some form of exercise and we talk a lot about that in the book because there's you know the picture of me with my shirt off and exercise is so important to me. But the book really isn't a, you know, washboard abs in three weeks kind of book. You can buy a book like that. It's not going to help you because it doesn't work. It's great for marketing, but it doesn't work.

But you know, my advice is start moving if you don't move. And if you start moving and if you're gentle with yourself and if you pursue a very gentle induction program, you can slowly add fitness to your regime. And then you can decide just how intense you want that to be. In my case, I really enjoy it. I want to look my best and may not be my finest attribute, but I do. And I love training with my friends and I love sports. That may not be to everyone's liking, but to ask people, you know, as I do, can you go take a walk for half an hour, three times a week, ultimately, this isn't how you start. And can you do some weight bearing exercise, maybe twice a week for half an hour, if you just do that, which is not much,

and less than our government recommends incidentally. That will get you in a very good place compared to being sedentary. Now if you do with our government recommends, which is about five hours of exercise a week, that's a lot for most people, you really have an opportunity to live like a middle-aged person until you're no longer alive, which to me, it sounds like a pretty good deal. Yeah, definitely. You just get back to you, you said that it's in the maybe it's not your finest attribute to want to look your best.

Maybe it's not my finest attribute either, but I feel that way. And I'm constantly, I mean, I know in my case, it's kind of an unhealthy dialogue about the fact that I have a little bit of a belly even though I'm overall skinny But yeah, I've the fact that the picture of you looking jacked in in the book I find that inspirational and annoying well

My my wife's more on the just finds an annoying side finds in a knowing side. One of the things I love about winning. So, look, it depends on the person. Most of the people you've seen the gym, whether they will admit it or not, they're partially because they want to look good. And I know there's anything wrong with a healthy amount of vanity. An unhealthy amount probably is debilitating.

And those interdialogues can be destructive. And I too engage in them. Or said another way, I don't know too many people who are as intense about fitness as I am, who don't have body dysmorphia of some sort or another. How do you keep that in check? Probably don't, frankly. I mean, I don't think that's my finest attribute. But again, it's really typical of people who train a lot. And again, and no one talks about it. No one wants to talk about it, particularly men. It's funny because I have a nutritionist right now. I went, as you know,

I stopped eating animal products. I don't know when this is. And sugar. And sugar. Yeah. So I think you should remember my idol. Because you, we should say, we'll get to this in the eating part. Soon, you do eat a little bit of sugar and that's I think comforting to people. So sugar was about a year ago and about a half year ago I stopped eating animal products and I did it incorrectly and really had some negative health ramifications and I found this nutritionist who was recommended to me by a friend who's extremely fit and also a vegan and this guy's a vegan body builder. And I really like him. And he is very interesting in that he will talk about,

he'll say, you know, how do you feel you're looking right now? And I'll always give him my shbiel about, I don't like the belly. And he'll say, do you think this is unhealthy or do you think it's motivating? Because people in my line of work, and his line of work is he's a body builder. Fall into body dysmorphia and it becomes unhealthy. motivating because people in my line of work and his line of work is he's a body builder.

Fall into body dysmorphia and it becomes unhealthy and he's like, I just want to put a, I want to flag that for you because you need to keep an eye on that. That's right. Which I find lottable because as you said, most people, especially guys, are not talking about this. That's right. It's, it's really just not discussed women talk about it all the time. Men don't. So you don't want to hold yourself up as a model for keeping this in check but what I would

recommend or what I try to do with myself is mindfulness. Just if you have some visibility into your own mental processes and you see that you're just stuck in a loop of self-recomrecrimination about whatever physical attribute it is you're perseverating over. Then you might just notice, oh this is happening. Maybe I can focus on something else. Exactly. Exactly, that's right. And obviously have other things in your life. If you find that I will run into people who will go to extremes on all four pillars that

are in the book, way too much exercise, way too much focus on diet, I'm not sure there's way too much focus on spirituality, but I suppose it does. No, there can be. There can be. I mean, there are people who, you know, you still have to get up and go to work after all. And even way too much focus on health, you know, you're spending all day long scouring the internet and you know getting tests. So, yeah. So there I think you can over do absolutely anything. And the question

is as you said, can you be mindful and then make your own choice about where you fall? One of the choices I've made is I try really hard not to step on a scale. I found out, and this was recommended to me by Sean Pring to whom the book is dedicated unfortunately passed away young of lung cancer who was editor in chief of muscle and fitness. So guy was an incredible shape at the age of 50. And he said, I never weigh myself because what's the point? All I do is look in the mirror and see how I'm doing. And I thought, yeah, that's probably the right thing. And I never weigh myself because what's the point? All I do is look in the mirror and see how I'm doing.

And I thought, yeah, that's probably the right thing. And I would weigh myself and I had in my mind to target weight. And if I exceeded it, I'd feel bad about myself without regard to how I looked or felt or had performed that day. And the worst part is if I were at or under the weight, then I think I gave myself permission to eat things that I really should need. So I'm not sure it was a good result either way and I've tried therefore to stay off the scale. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wunderys Podcast

even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Ru goes out searching for love and acceptance. But the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Ru off course. In our series RuPaul Born Naked, we'll show you how RuPaul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring

queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. Okay, so we've talked about bodies as morphism, but you work out a ton. And you've got two huge jobs, notwithstanding the fact you're also a husband and a father of three beautiful children. So you're a CEO of Take To Interactive. Also, is it CEO of ZMC or Chairman? GMC doesn't have titles. Okay, I'm a partner. You're the name on Z is Zellnick

media. What is it again? Zellnick media Capital. Okay. So you're investing in media company. So you've got these two huge jobs and you work out minimum six days a week. Some of those days twice. So do you think there's compulsion in that? Yes, absolutely. And I think I'm low-themed as a word, because it's not a very pretty word.

But so there's a thin line between motivation and compulsion, and there's another thin line between performance and compulsion, I suppose. When we work really, really hard, and you didn't find yourself in this career position without working really hard, without working in a way that most people would find unimaginable. And I work hard too. And is that compulsion or is that ambition or is that just plain appropriate? So there we have to be, as you said earlier, you know, we have to be mindful of all of these things. But does this amount of exercise feel compulsive to me? No, it doesn't feel compulsive to me?

No, it doesn't feel compulsive to me because it's my recreation and it's my release. Yeah, and as you've said to me before, there are other forms of recreation you might enjoy, but you just don't do them because you're making time for this. Like you don't watch a lot of TV or movie. That's right, I don't. And that's, I've nothing against them by the way.

There's not a prescription not to watch television or movies to the contrary, and I make television shows. So definitely want you to watch them. But, but I, you have to choose. And I think you can have three or four priorities in your life. And my priorities are my family and my friends, my work, my fitness, and a charitable work and mentoring and coaching. Those are my four.

And it's not that I don't watch television ever, I do. Sometimes with my wife, that's important to her. And I love movies, although I don't see as many as I'd like. But it's just not on the top list of priorities. It can't be. And I mean, I would add to the list, new, mindfulness is really important. I think you've stated quite beautifully, there's a thin line between motivation and compulsion. I'm writing that line all the time and lots of areas in my life including fitness and I think I cross it at times. I think there's no question that I don't want. So do I. Okay, so I said that to you. Yes. So we both opened about that and I think mindfulness is important but also something that

both of us have is strong vocal wives. wives. And really good friends in your life. And I would throw in for those who are interested also psychotherapy. These are all really good ways to know how you're doing in writing that line. It's okay, we're gonna mess up, but you don't wanna firmly be in the land of compulsion forever. That's right.

And I think the phrase I use most commonly, both personally and professionally, is, what am I missing? And I want to know the answer. I'm actually interested in the answer to that question. It isn't rhetorical. And you're right. I'm blessed that I have a lot of people around me who are strongly opined and vocal, and not just my wife, and yes, also a therapist, and also coaches and friends and colleagues. I surround myself at work with people who are challenging, difficult, tough, and opinionated, completely allergic to flattery, and people who say yes when they really mean no, and I just don't have people like that around me. So let's move on now to the third pillar,

which is another area where people can get compulsive myself included is just food. Right. So what's your prescription in the book? Well, the prescription is pretty straightforward, which is Dr. Peter Ritio, who's the leading or one of the leading researchers in nutrition and longevity, puts it simply. There are three things you probably shouldn't put in your body at all. Alcohol, sugar, added sugar, and refined carbohydrates. And he said, now that said, I've eaten with Peter, and Peter will have a glass of wine with dinner. He'll eat dessert, although you might have to twist his arm a little bit, and he'll

eat some refined carbohydrates. But the fact remains, those three things really aren't good for you. And there's just no argument that they're good for you, and I eat some sugar too, and I eat some refined carbohydrates. But if you took as a guy to define refined carbs would be like a pasta bread pasta bread for example Manifest french fries, you know manufactured food that are their carbs Process food because it creates an higher insulin response and causes you to store fat bad for you So you should be eating whole carbohydrates and that is an important part of any diet, right? Rice, whole grains, if you're a generally a lot of grains, but whole grains, potatoes,

yams, and the like. You do need carbohydrates in your diet. There's a whole lot of talk about ketogenic diets, and you can lose weight very quickly if you remove carbohydrates from your diet. You can also lose weight by removing any one food group from your diet. You know, remove all the fat from your diet, keep it high carb, you'll lose weight as well. I would argue that any diet that doesn't include fats, proteins, and carbohydrates is not a healthy diet. So the prescription really is, you know, don't put added sugar to the extent that you can avoid it into your diet.

And you can find added sugar in a lot of places, whether it's ketchup, fruit juice, soda, or the like. Secondly, limit strictly refined carbohydrates, the ones we discussed, and to make it easier, anything that you find in a bag or in a box. And strictly limit to the extent that you're able to alcohol, because it's toxin and it's not good for you. The book goes into much more detail. It has recipes that are really easy to cook that are healthy, but those are the basic concepts.

I want to acknowledge something because, again, I suspect there are some people going to be listening to us and thinking, these guys are annoying because they're so disciplined. And, you know, and yes, you pointed out that I don't eat sugar. I do eat a little bit of refined carbs. I don't drink alcohol. But I struggled, mightily, to get to this point. Giving up sugar was because it was becoming an addiction. And I have many.

And I realized that I had this running very boring destructive dialogue in my head of like i have to search tonight what am i gonna have blah blah blah all day long and then i would eat so i couldn't have a cookie i would have seventeen cookies and then i'll feel awful the next day so about a year ago i just said i can't uh... it was inspired by my friend and a woman who's been on the show a bunch of times grouch and rubin who just who she went through a similar thing and she just went cold turkey.

Something I thought I could never do, but on the 1,000th time that I woke up feeling like crap from overeating sugar and was in a bad mood all day, I just said, okay, that I'm done. And I went through a similar struggle around animal products because I just couldn't abide eating them anymore. But I don't want to pretend that this is easy. This is food, food issues are really tough. Food issues are hard because with regard to alcohol, you can just say I'm not drinking alcohol, period,

but with regard to food, we're still eating, we have to eat. And so it's very difficult. And I put myself in that category too Sugar and refined carbohydrates are bad for you. I just said it and yet I eat dessert now I try not to eat endless quantities and I'm not Obsessing about sweets all day long thankfully But I'm not prepared yet to give it up that that isn't by way of saying, and therefore it's healthy. It isn't healthy.

But one makes a choice about how you want to live, and not we can't all be perfect all the time. So it takes discipline to do what you do, and it takes some discipline for me to maintain the diet that I'm on, even though it's reasonably flexible diet at this point. Interestingly, it would actually take more discipline for me to do what you do than to do what I'm doing. Right. So it's easier for me to do abstinence rather than mutterate. Well, you know yourself this way, and you're wired that way.

And certainly with regard to alcohol, I find abstinence is the only correct approach for me. But with regard to food, I'm not there yet. Maybe I should be there, or maybe I will get there over time. I think I just, I want to encourage people to see themselves as they are, and you see yourself for who you are, and you make an appropriate choice for yourself that leads you to better health and more happiness, actually. I think I've seen myself for who I am,

and I'm tailoring my approach to that. And for other people, this isn't worthwhile at all, although they're probably not listening to us today. Let me just get into alcohol for a second because I quit not because I had a problem with alcohol, but because I just developed an allergy to it and it just makes me feel awful. So I just stopped. I quit other stuff like cocaine because I was heading in a, I was giving me panic attacks, which are inconvenient if you're in the business of talking on television.

But on alcohol, I thought the received wisdom was, you know, this is why the French are so healthy because they have a glass of wine a day. It didn't, some doctors recommend this stuff, but here you are saying no, no actually, no alcohols, good for you. Well interestingly, you know, they were also, as I recall, before my time, but there were doctors recommending methyl cigarettes in the 1950s because they soothinged your throat and said so, promoted certain brands. There's recent research, it just came out with the last couple weeks that I wasn't surprised and leased by, there was a massive study, hundreds of thousands of people were in the study, which basically said any amount of alcohol is not good for you.

My point is not, therefore everyone should abstain though, in the same way that any amount of added sugar probably isn't good for you, and yet I have dessert. You just should be mindful of it and not kid yourself about what's going on. Alcohol is a toxin. In the fullness of time, I'm certain it's going to be proven to be bad for you even in small quantities. But if you want to have some alcohol, then I don't think there's anything wrong with it in the fullness of time If you're moderate and any number of other ways if you're in moderate, there's a whole lot wrong with it So let's talk about the fourth pillar which is something that doesn't show up in fitness books that often which is spirituality and and Something I know that is near and dear to your heart and and the reason we're chatting today

that is near and dear to your heart and the reason we're chatting today. And this was a part of my life that really only came into focus when I stopped drinking, which is, I think I needed something else to supply the relief that I'll call a given me from all that anxiety and stress and spikiness. And I found it in developing a spiritual life. And what I've observed is that it can take any number of different forms. For some people, it's meditation, it is for you. For other people, it's traditional religion,

going to church or mosque or synagogue regularly and participating in organized religion. And for me, it's not those things, although it was characteristics of all of them, it's morning prayer, and it's secular. It's not religious. Secular in meaning that you're not praying to God? Well, I am praying to God, but I don't define God. And I'm not committed to any particular definition. It's like the Unitarian Church. I think the line is, it's not important to believe in God.

It's just important to believe that you're not God. I think I define God as everything that's not me, everything around me, whether it's the people or the universe or the environment, but it's that which is outside of me. And I think developing a spiritual life for me was as simple as understanding the difference between actions now comes. Understanding what I can do is pretty narrowly set around the span of my arms. That's what I can actually do.

What occurs is the interaction between the span of my arms and everything outside of it. And so when I'm praying, what I'm really trying to do is oppose to having the world align itself to me and my desires, having me listen to the world and align my desires and me with it. What does it look like? Are you just sitting in a chair comfortably? I'm actually on my knees. I'm actually, which is a posture of prayer

that is typical for many and atypical for many. But for me, it's a posture of humility. And that's where I want to start. And how long will you do this for every day? A few minutes, not as long as, for example, you will meditate. All that's very meditative for me. But what it does is it sets off my day. And I'm absolutely committed to this.

My day starts this way, whether I feel like it or not. Oh, and to be clear, I don't feel like it much of the time. Now, look, this is not about constantly being enthusiastic. I also don't feel like going to the gym all the time. Certainly, some of my workouts I really don't feel like doing. I feel better when they're over, but I really don't feel like doing them. It's not quite as challenging as a workout, but there are times when I really don't feel like being meditative and mindful, but I do it every morning.

So what are you doing in your mind in those few minutes? I have actually a parapractic, it's flexible, but it centers around gratitude, thinking about other people, and setting an intention for the day. Can you break those down? So it's gratitude to think about other people

and setting an intention for the day. Do you mind just to the extent you're comfortable getting a little bit more granular on those? No, yes, I will. Gratitude, I list all the things in my life and I'm actually sort of speaking softly, this is not all in my head. I list all the things in my life for which I'm grateful, they're a long list of things. I've had plenty of material blessings and lots of emotional blessings. And I happily married for a long time. I have kids. I love.

I have loads of friends and colleagues I care about. And so I have a long list of things to be grateful for. And I enumerate them. And then move on to asking for blessings for all the people I care about. And if there is someone I'm annoyed with, or resentful of, pray for them as well, it's nothing like forgiveness to heal.

And that's part of my prayer practice. I don't usually carry around many resentments. And this to my wife's great annoyance, there's almost no one on earth I don't like. But if there is someone no one on earth I don't like. But, you know, if there is someone that goes on the list, because it releases, you know, it releases you and releases your commitment to being connected to negativity. And then I set an attention for the day, which is asking and listening for what the world has in store for me as opposed to what I have in store for the world, trying to be trying to give and not get, trying to be trying to enter my day with a posture of service

and and a focus on others not just on myself. So I have one response to that and then that's something, another response to something you said earlier, I was recently interviewing an expert in graduate scientist, trained at Harvard who did positive psychology at Harvard. He's got Sean, a core SHAWN, last name, ACHOR. He wrote a book called The Happiness Advantage. And he, one of the things he talks a lot about is gratitude, turns out his, because I had been doing this thing where every time, right, as I'm going to bed, I just list all the things I'm grateful for. He said the one tweak he would put on that is to list three things that you're grateful

for today. In other words, things that happened today, because his argument is that teaches the brain to scan all the time for great things, which is a great way to overcome the negativity bias that's baked into us by evolution, where we're always looking around for threats. I think that's great piece of advice. I hadn't heard that before. So that's one thing. The other thing is, and I don't have my stick together on this, so I'm just going to free associate for a second. When you talked about praying, thinking about God is everything that's outside of you. I like that, but I had one little kind of reservation that came up, which is that it

may reinforce the idea that we're somehow separate from the universe. We have this primordial illusion of separation, that we, it's us locked in our ego, locked behind our eyes, hearing fretfully out at the world. When in fact, it's actually the borders are much more porous. And somebody said something recently that I can think of once in a while when I'm meditating, which is like, you are nature. I mean, we're all a part of the same thing. We look at an animal and think that's nature, but you are nature and you are integrated into this whole thing. So it seems to me that God is just a touch more complex than what you were describing. But again, I just I don't have I'm not dogmatic about this. I just

want to get your response. I think it's a great observation and I think as I let go of, try to let go of self in my morning prayer, there's a much greater likelihood that I'll feel at one with what's outside of me. The starting point is simply to say, this, this shell is me and all these burning desires inside are me and everything else is God. And then, and I want to let go of what's inside me and listen to what's outside of me. And I think you're right, a higher expression that would then feel being integrated into what's outside. And I think it's a path that I hope to be on. I'm probably not there yet. I'm not sure if one ever gets there, but I'm probably not there yet. I see it exactly as you

do. These are all, this is all an illusion and what we've created and pretty much everything that we do all day long is completely flies in the face of reality, which is that we enter this world with nothing and we will all leave with nothing. Oh, and by the way, we'll all leave. And even that, something as simple as that, most people aren't denial about. Most people, I'm looking across the table, you know, most people are like, yeah, I know you're gonna die. Me, however, no, I'm gonna live forever. You know, that is a fantasy that we all can live in it for not careful.

When you see people endlessly amassing power money or possessions or spouses, for example, or anything, I think it's grasping immortality as opposed to recognizing, we all have an arc, it's a limited arc. We get to do this once, you know, we're gonna make of it. And so when you say ageless, you are not referring to defying the laws of nature. Certainly not. And I have friends, you know,

all you have to do is go to Silicon Valley, you can run to people who literally believe that they're gonna live forever. They talk about the escape velocity, which is if you can, every year, if you can push out your death by more than a year, then you've reached escape velocity, you're never gonna die. And you can, every year, if you can push out your death by more than a year, then you've reached a skate velocity. You're never going to die.

And you can actually find literature on this topic. Kurzweil, among other things, believes this. And he's still alive, where medical science is continuing to increase my lifespan every year for more than a year. You do the math. So I don't believe that. That's sort of like Zeno's paradox, which implies you can't move across the room because each movement that you need to make has to be shorter than the movement you anticipate. But it turns out Zeno's paradox,

notwithstanding we can actually move across the room. So in the same way, you know, you can you can determine the medical science is making headway and you can still get hit by a truck. And I figure we all will form another or yourself driving car crash. Exactly. So that being said, you said an interesting thing to be recently. We're talking about the fact you're 61 now. And you actually think it's possible you can be in better shape at 71 than you are now. I do. But what if I'm wrong? I'll still be still a fun trying. And it's a little bit more aspirational than sort of dogmatic.

It's certainly not dogmatic. First of all, all kinds of things can happen that are unexpected. I hope they don't, but they certainly could. And my wife and I were kidding about dying. And she said, see, you really can't die now. Because imagine how embarrassing it would be to publish a book called Becoming Ageless

and then to die. But of course I could and who I hope not to. My point though is in the absence of an illness or an accident, there's, I'm not an Olympic athlete, I'm not I'm not training at that level and none of my peers is training at that level. We're all really, really good casual athletes who have day jobs and relationships and lives. If you are training in that level, no. There's no limitation at 61-71 or probably 81.

There reaches a point where you will likely be in firm. I'm hoping that'll be pretty close to the point at which I'm no longer walking around on the face of the earth. And that's really the point, but no one should mistake my prescription for fitness as yes, you can be, you know, you're a professional gymnast at 18 years old and you're going to be the same quality professional gymnast at 61. No, you're not going to be. What about one of the beefs that you and I were talking beforehand? You said that one of the critiques you're hearing, the book has been very warmly received, but one of the critiques you hear is, oh, well, of course, this guy has

time and energy and money to spend on his personal health because he's rich. But I'm not rich, therefore I can't do it. How do you respond to that? Well, the first I respond to Sam, incredibly grateful for all the resources I have. You know, incredibly grateful. And of course they allow me to do things that some people can't do. I would then also observe that without regard to our own limitations, we can make healthy choices. And you know, you can decide, look instead of watching television, I'm going to get

exercise. And you can join a gym like Planet Fitness or or blink for less than $20 a month, which is I'm guessing most people, not everyone, can divert $20 a month from other expenditures if fitness is a priority. And if you really can't, there's plenty of stuff you can do body weight, you can get outside and walk or if you want, you can run. There are numerous activities that truly are free. So both are true.

I am blessed and I'm grateful for those blessings and it does allow me, for example, to join a bunch of different gyms and train where I want and go on fun cycling trips. But it is not true that you can't eat healthily. The food that is most recommended is very inexpensive. Certainly, you know, as you do, you know, you don't eat animal products. That's way less expensive food than a diet that includes, you know, bags and boxes and cakes and the like.

You're eating, you know, whole grains and vegetables and fruit. And so about as inexpensive a diet as you can have so Let's make sure that we're not engaging in limitations as excuses That doesn't mean I don't have blessings. I do is there anything I should have asked you but didn't Well You're pretty good about asking good questions, but I guess I would probably ask, okay, so given all of this, what you do and the life you have

and where you're at, are you happy. Are you? Yeah, I'm really happy. I'm really blessed, I'm really happy. You have, I've seen you a little annoyed before. I get irritated, but it's rare. Yeah. I'm trying to think when you would have seen me on tape.

Well, what's coming to mind is you, the four of us were sitting down for dinner, what night? You were actually a pretty good mood, but you used an expression of somebody took my sweater. Oh, right. Some borrowed my sweater. Yes, that's my wife's expression. Which mean basically it's a long story, but it basically is a way of saying people are kind of pushing the limits with me a little bit. Yeah, people are asking a little too much and you sometimes feel like when you worry

at yourself to giving and not getting, and then there are times when I think, and this is my fault, this is no one else's fault, but there are times when I can feel like, oh yeah, yeah, I sort of meant I want to give give and not get but what I really want is to get Maybe you saw me in a moment where I wasn't at my most spiritually healthy. It was not what I would call unhealthy We were going around the table talking about how we were Let me just go back to this idea of Because I don't think we spent enough time on this this service piece because you take this really seriously One of the first things we ever talk about you an open door policy do a ton of coaching and mentoring for people were you doing that in your 30s and 40s to or was this something that happened to happen later in life now i was always doing this and this came from a place i wanted to be in the entertainment business and i had no connections whatsoever that my dad was a lawyer

and not in the entertainment business and so I tried to get connected to people and go see them and I wrote over the transom letters, this is days before email, and calls and no one would see me. And it was really hard to break in in the entertainment business. So I made it a commitment to myself. When I got my first job, which was a Columbia pictures, that if someone wanted to talk about business or anything, I'd always have an

open door. So it's purely about career stuff and entertainment. And I did. And because I had an open door, people came to me, not because I had much to offer. I don't think I did. And I wasn't senior in the beginning, of course, I was a junior executive at Columbia Pictures. But I started talking to people. And so we got around at the business schools and colleges that if you want to get into entertainment, this guy, no one else will see it, but this guy will. And so people came see me. And then that turned into a coaching and mentoring practice that I developed over a long period

of time. And that became really important to me because I looked at life and said, you know, what do I do for a living? I provide people with light entertainment. I'm proud of what I do. Don't get me wrong. And I love it. But I'm not carrying cancer.

And what I do will never be remembered after I'm gone. If on the other hand, I can actually make a difference, even in a small number of people's lives, but a material difference, that could really actually be meaningful. And I don't know how many people, you know, I've truly affected, but I know that I work with a couple hundred people a year, a year, and year out. And in certain instances, there have been really significant changes. How do you make time for that?

Because every time we talk about this, I feel guilty. Because I do some mentoring, but ABC News has an official mentor program. So every year I get a new mentee and I stay in touch for the ones, the previous ones, but a hundred people. I mean, I say no to a lot of stuff just because I need to protect time to actually get my work done. How do you manage that? Well, I have to say no as

well, although I'm not really good at that. I've always been very efficient. Some people could call that impatient or crisp. And I will, people will occasionally say, well, you know, I went into meeting with a guy in the last of like 15 minutes. So I, if something isn't productive from my point of view, I'm low to engage in it. And that does free up time for things that I find more important. I also combine mentoring and coaching with things like exercise. So if someone wants to talk to me for an hour,

you know, I say, look, you know, there's really only one place you're going to get me for an hour. And that's in the gym. Otherwise, it's going to be shorter than that. So not everyone wants to go to the gym, but if someone does, they'll come to the gym with me. And because you do this thing, the program, which is... That's the program sort of came out of that, which is it's a group of people who trained together in the mornings, although I certainly am not standing around coaching people, well, telling people

that their form is no good. And they're saying it to me too, fortunately, because mine isn't all that good all the time. But that did sort of come out of those kind of relationships. to me too, fortunately, because mine isn't all that good all the time. But that did sort of come out of those kind of relationships. But when I'm talking about typically, it's more one-on-one. So someone will want to sit down with me and I'll say, look, you have a cup of coffee or we can go to the gym.

And I never, you know, for someone to go exercise who isn't interested in that. Yeah, we've done it. Yeah. A bunch of times. Same thing. Yes. Before we go've done it. Yeah. Much times. Same thing. Yes. Before we go, let's just plug the book again.

Where, what's it called? Where can we get it? It's called Becoming Ageless. And it's available on Amazon. It barns and no will pretty much anywhere that you can find books for sale. And I'm hopeful that it'll help you, you know, become your best self and let go

of the limitations that you perceive are related to aging. And if you want to see Strauss schooling me in the gym, you can Google it. I guess it would probably be on YouTube. It's on YouTube. I think if you Google Zalnik Ageless 61-year-old, it comes up. Really? Maybe it wouldn't hurt to put Good morning America in there because this was a good morning America that'll come up to yeah okay yeah it was pretty embarrassing not for you Great great job really appreciate it thanks Dan Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast if you liked it Please take a minute to subscribe rate us also if you want to suggest topics you think we should cover or guests

That we should bring in hit me up on Twitter at DanVHarris. Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohan, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.