Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 165: How to Argue Better | Oren Jay Sofer

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

This episode dives into our archives to revisit the notion of communication as a learnable skill. Often some of the most painful situations you encounter are the result of poor communication. The good news is that communication is a skill that can be learned. Author and meditation teacher Oren Jay Sofer, a leading figure in the field of interpersonal communication, breaks down how communication can be one of the most powerful levers for creating positive change in your life. Oren Jay Sofer is the author of Say What You Mean: A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication. He also teaches mindfulness, meditation and nonviolent communication in secular and Buddhist contexts. He graduated from Insight Meditation Center’s Spirit Rock Vipassana Teacher Training and is a long-time student of Joseph Goldstein, Michele McDonald, and Ajahn Sucitto.In this conversation, we also talk about:How to become aware of what motivates you to communicate the way you do Strategies for how to have more meaningful conversationsWhat it means to lead with presenceHow conflict has the possibility to deepen our relationships and make peace Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/oren-jay-sofer-repost-165See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody. One of the most valuable skills I have learned in recent years is how to get better at talking to other human beings. It is amazing to contemplate that most of us spend much of our days yammering, and yet very few of us have ever been taught how to do a better job at this. For me, at least many of the most painful and most awkward and embarrassing situations

I have ever endured were the results of poor communication, usually on my end. Why don't they teach this in school? Because it turns out communication is a skill. And there are many extremely smart people who have devised brilliant systems for teaching us how to get better at this. One of the leading figures in this field is the meditation teacher, Orin J. Sofer. If you use the 10% happier app, you've most likely encountered him over there. He's one of our most popular teachers.

And he has dedicated much of his teaching career to the subject of interpersonal communication. In this conversation, we talk about his core thesis that communication is a learnable skill and one of the most accessible ways to improve your life. How to become aware of what motivates you to communicate the way you do. Strategies for how to have more meaningful conversations.

What it means to, as he says, lead with presence, how to understand your intentions and wants, and how conflict can deepen our relationships in the end. A little bit more about Orrin. He teaches mindfulness meditation and nonviolent communications in both secular and Buddhist contexts. He's practiced meditation in the early Buddhist tradition

since 1997. He's a graduate of the IMS spirit rock of a Pasena teacher training and a current member of the spirit rock teachers council. And he is the author of, say what you mean, a mindful approach to non-violent communication. I should say before we dive in that this is a reposted rerun episode from deep in our

archives. We recorded it a while back and many of you new listeners probably have not heard it. And if you're not a new listener, I strongly believe this one bears repeated listens. So enjoy. We will get started with orange a sofa right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually

do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist, Kelly McGonical, and the great meditation teacher, Alexis Santos, to access the course, just download the 10% happier app

wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad.

Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from, MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. podcast host. So just walk me through the book. Yeah, but it gives me a chance to explain it. So the book is kind of the result of the last 20 years of my practice. You know, I started meditating when I was 19 and five or six years in, I found, hey, this stuff is great, but every time I open my mouth, it goes out the window. And what good is that? You know? Boy, I know that feeling. Yeah. So I was very lucky to stumble across this guy named Marshall Rosenberg, who founded this practice called nonviolent communication. And I took to it immediately, like as quickly as I took to meditation, it was one of those things where the first time I heard

about it, I was like, oh my God, this can change my life. This is amazing. So very quickly, I started taking classes and workshops and eventually going on these communication retreats. I was like, amazed. I didn't even know that you could learn how to communicate better. And that kind of blew my mind because communication is the one thing that we all do in every context of our life. It's like one of the most important factors that determines our success at work, the quality of our relationships at home or with friends. And yet it's the thing that most of us have the least training in. So I was really hungry for tools.

And so then over the years, I started realizing that the mindfulness practice and the clarity of awareness and the strength of qualities like kindness or patience or restraint were so necessary for the communication tools I was learning that, you know, if you can't be aware, good luck having a meaningful conversation with somebody, right? So over the last 15 or 20 years, the two really came together in me. And so the book, say what you mean, a mindful approach to nonviolent communication is how do you learn these tools with mindfulness and awareness as a foundation? Tell me about nonviolent communication.

I guess I get an initial pang of annoyance when I hear the terms like, oh my God, okay, what is this? So what about it spoke to you? I love that, Dan. A lot of people get an initial pang of annoyance, And then unfortunately, a lot of people get another dose of annoyance when they talk to people who have learned a nonviolent communication because they've learned it often incorrectly. They've learned it in this kind of rigid form. And so you're talking to someone and they sound like a robot or it feels like they're manipulating you and you're like, what are you

doing? Stop. You know, just be normal. So one of the things that I emphasize a lot when I teach communication is it's not about what you say. It's not in the words. You know, so much of our communication is nonverbal. It's in the tone of our voice. It's in our expressions, our body language. It's in things that are even more subtle, you know, that we can't put our finger on where you're like, you know, I just, everything he said sounded good, but I don't trust him. Right? And it's like, we can't say why. So it's not about what we say. It's about where we're coming from and the quality of connection and understanding

that we're able to create with someone. So, so what is nonviolent communication? So the shorthand is NVC. Nonviolent communication was founded by this man named Marshall Rosenberg. And he grew up in Detroit in the 40s. And he lived through the race riots. And I think it was 43 or 44. And like, dozens of people were killed within a few blocks of his house. This was at a huge impact on him as a small child. He was like, oh my God, you know, people might try to kill you for the color of your skin. And then going to school as a young Jewish boy and Detroit, he was the subject of a lot of anti-Semitism and physical violence.

And then you realize, okay, people might want to hurt you because of your last name. So this had a really strong impression on him, but then he was also exposed to people like his uncle who took care of his grandmother who was paralyzed. And his uncle would come over the house every night and wash her and feed her, and he would he would just be beaming. He would be so happy to be helping and giving. So Marshall's like, what's going on here? How come some people, when their needs aren't met, resort to violence? And other people are able to feel so much joy in giving to other human beings. So this kind of set him out on a mission to learn and understand more about the nature of violence and the nature of human relationship. So he studied with people like Carl Rogers, who found that humanistic psychology, he did some of his own research.

studied with people like Carl Rogers who found that humanistic psychology, he did some of his own research. And what he found was that one of the key things that makes a difference in whether or not we will see violence as a viable strategy to meet our needs is how we think about things and how we speak. But the concepts that we use to understand our world, can either make violence seem really logical and even enjoyable, or can help us to stay connected to our shared humanity?

So what is violence? So you know me here that word usually think, okay, it's you know, physically harming someone, but obviously there's a lot more that's like poverty, right? Is violence. Lack of education is a form of violence in some way. Insult. Insult, right, verbal.

So, you know, one thinker, you know, on Galton defines violence as any avoidable impairment of basic human needs. So Marshall Rosenberg discovered this process that he termed a nonviolent communication, and he called it that for two reasons. One, because of this connection between the way we think and speak and our actions. And two, to place it within the tradition of Gandhian and Kingian nonviolence, because he really saw it not just as a process for better interpersonal communication and relationships, not just as a way of having more connection with

ourselves, you know, in life, and particularly these days, we can get estranged from ourselves, where we lose connection with our own sense of purpose or meaning or direction in life. So not only is it useful for those purposes, but it's a tool for social change, for actually looking at what's happening in society, the way our institutions are structured and using language, using how we think about things to create change. So that's the context. Non-violent communication is founded on a few premises.

One of the main ones being that our conflicts happen at the level of our strategies. Our ideas about what we want in life. But that fundamentally, all human beings share the same basic needs. So in one way or another, we all want to be happy. We all want our children to grow up in peace and have education and access to medical care. We all want a sense of meaning and purpose, we want respect, understanding, things like that. Those vary in relative importance depending on who we are, or what stage of life we're in, and our ideas about how to meet those needs also vary quite a bit.

So the process of nonviolent communication is one of training ourselves to notice this deeper level of our experience in ourself and in others and learn to understand our choices, our actions, our relationships from this different perspective. And when we can really understand what actually matters in a situation, not just what I think I want, but why I want it. There's a lot more room to understand each other, to see things from other perspectives, and then eventually to collaborate, which is the purpose, to actually be able to work together to address whatever needs are present. I had what's called a 360 review, you know, one of those. Sure. So that's where you hire a firm and they talk to people, you know, all aspects of your life.

Yeah, yeah. Above, below, parallel, yeah. The joke I've been making is that the conclusion of the report from my perspective was you suck from every angle. And it was a pretty harsh report. Really? Yes. Oh, that's hard. But it was incredibly useful. I feel very positive about it. Totally. Feedback is so important. That's how we learn.

Yeah. Yes. I didn't have many feedback mechanisms other than Twitter and my wife. And so I knew some of my deficiencies, but I just didn't have it like a 41 page report with all these anonymous quotes before. So now I have a kind of Bible, which is really useful. Joseph Goldstein, mutual friend of ours, great meditation teacher, had recommended this couple who I'm sure you're afraid you live near them. So I'm sure you know them. Moudita, Nisker, and Dan Clermen, they teach some sort of basic communication. They teach communication, right?

Yeah. And so I've been working with them a little bit on Skype and really like them. Great. And that gets me to the question, which is one of the things I bumped up to against with them, they don't teach NVC, they just have sort of mindfulness infused connotations. Sure. means is a lot of our conversations are just, you know, shooting the bull with people in the office and or at home, maybe I do have a basic need that's trying to be met there, but I'm not really aware of it. They're not free-did conversations.

There are occasionally, throughout the day, a big meaningful conversation, and often I'm unprepared for it. It's like, my wife's got something she wants to talk to me about. I'm just sitting there watching TV. So I have to switch into a mode where I'm really listening and it takes me a minute to recognize, oh, no, this is a big conversation.

But most of what we're doing is like, hey, you're going to the store, can you get me an avocado? Or somebody pops their head in my office and just like tells me some funny gossip and we're just, or we, you know, or tells me about some shoot they just did, you know, for Nightline and blah, blah, blah. And so again, I don't know necessarily that there's a need that's being met in a lot that we're aware of in these like, you know, I kind of think about it like two facts machines beeping at each other, you know, that's it or two dogs sniffing each other's butts. There's a certain amount of like just transactional conversation that happens that isn't some big conversation where you have a need and you got to figure out what your strategy to get that you met,

et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's great. A few different things to hit there. So the first is the acknowledgement that this distinction between a strategy and a need is shared the language is different, but it's shared in many, if not all, different communication techniques,

conflict resolution diplomacy, that other systems will talk about the difference between a position and an interest or a deeper concern. So there's this sense that there are these different levels to our awareness and our behavior. And what happens is we get fixated on the specifics. I want this to happen. I need you to do that for me. Those are strategies or positions. When we get fixated on a particular outcome, there's less space to hear each other, to dialogue,

to negotiate. We get shut down and locked into this very narrow, narrow view. That's the first thing is that that's a shared shared framework among many kinds of communication styles Second, what do we mean by need is really important because that word is pretty loaded It's pretty charged if you come to someone just like, hey, I really need more You know space and our relationship was like whoa, you know, that's kind of heavy. What do I do with that? What we mean by this word need is not a quality of neediness, not a quality of desperation or self-centeredness. What we mean by that is a fundamental core value

that's shared by human beings. So the word need is kind of unfortunate because of the connotations that carries in our culture. But the phrase that I actually like to use the most is what matters. This is what matters to us in our life. And so the understanding here, and this is getting to your question, is that all human behavior can be seen as an attempt to meet some underlying need to satisfy something that matters to us. And the if you just step back and think about it, it's like, why do human beings do stuff?

We do stuff because there's something that's important to us. We might not be aware of it, and that's the difference. And that's what's so powerful about this technique. So when we're unaware of our needs, when we're unaware of what matters of why we're doing the stuff that we do, we're not at choice. So if I don't know why I'm popping into your office and shooting my mouth off, or if

I don't know why I'm, I don't know, not answering someone's email or picking up my phone to look at my feed, if I don't know what's actually happening inside, what I'm ultimately after, what is this going to give me? Do I need some relief? Do I want to break? Do I need to relax? Do I want to break? Do I need to relax? Am I feeling a little bit isolated or lonely?

And I just want to connect. So I pop my head into your office. So the needs are there. There's something that's mattering to us. Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing it. But we're just not aware of it. And so one of the trainings is to become more aware of what's actually motivating me.

Why am I doing this? And we can see everything through that lens. And when we start to, it can really transform our life because we start to realize, I don't want to do that. So I'll tell you a short story. A colleague of mine was teaching some of this stuff at a workshop, having to be in Israel. And teaching is this very concept, that everything we do,

we do to meet some deeper, basic underlying value or need. That's shared, it's universal. So this gentleman at the workshop was driving home, reaches for a smoke, and his car, and he pauses, okay. All right, let's give this stuff a, you know. If this is really true, then I'm trying to meet some need here, you know, by smoking okay. All right, let's give this stuff a, you know, if this is really true, then I'm trying to meet some need

here, you know, by smoking a cigarette. Okay, well, what need am I trying to meet? Who thinks about it for a little reason? I wanna relax, I wanna break. I don't wanna take my mind off things, yeah. She is. I have better ways of doing that than smoking. And quit. I don't need to smoke to relax and take my mind off things.

Obviously not everyone has the willpower to kick a habit like that, but that illustrates this difference. I wish I would have thought of that last night when I ate a bunch of granola bars mind left. Right, exactly. What did I need? I don't know. You know, well, do you have a sense what you were feeling? What emotions are present? That was higher. Okay. I was a little hungry. Okay. So Ty, I felt like I needed a treat because

I had just taken my kid to recording this on November 1st. I had just taken my kid trick or treating, but I don't need dessert anymore. And so I was surrounded by all these treats that I couldn't have that I did want. So you wanted some pleasure. Yeah. You wanted some pleasure, some sense of enjoyment. Yes. Yeah, Dan needs a little bit of something.

Yeah. Uplifting, right? So then we were aware of that. It's like, yeah, that's a healthy, that's a healthy inclination. Pleasures really important in life. It's just a question of what kind of pleasure are we going towards addictive unhealthy pleasure or are we going towards healthy pleasure, something that actually nourishes us? So when we're aware of that, then we can make a different choice. Sometimes we eat, you know, like emotional eating, we might eat because

we're in pain and we need some relief. Sometimes we eat because we're overstimulated and we need to ground. When your belly is really full, it's very grounding. You know, so lots of times emotional eating will be like, oh, I just need to be here more, but there are other ways to do that. eating will be like, oh, I just need to be here more, but there are other ways to do that. So, so maybe back to the book. So what's the book about? So the book, it's a guide to how to have more meaningful conversations that bring people together. And it's a, it's really a practice manual. It's like a step-by-step guide with stories and exercises. And so the three basic steps, the basic framework is that the first step is to lead with presence. And this is the basic training and mindfulness that, you know, if we want to have a meaningful conversation, if we don't want to create a big mess that we have

to clean up later, we've got to be here. We have to learn not just how to be present in our meditation practice, but how to be really present with another human being. How to be here. We have to learn not just how to be present in our meditation practice, but how to be really present with another human being. How to be aware of what's happening in ourself, how to sense and track what's happening for the other person, and not get, like you say, your phrase, not get yanked around by our thoughts and our emotions. So this is, there are all kinds of ways for bringing mindfulness

into our conversations and relationships. So, it's kind of this translation of meditation. You could say it's an interpersonal meditation. So, like even right now, as we're sitting together and you're nodding your head a little, you know, you can feel that movement. You can feel the weight of your body, right? And so, as I point that out now, notice the difference may be a little bit in your level of awareness, how here you feel,

right, or how much sense of connection there is between us. So, in those kinds of skills of grounding and being present, that's like gold when you're in a difficult moment with somebody. Because the mind just takes off. You know, the mind just goes into, I can't believe you did this and how come and the last time this happened and I'm never gonna again and you always, and if we follow that stuff forget it, it's over. But if we can just pause. Okay, just some right here, you know, that's the foundation for having effective conversation. So that's the first training. And the first part of the book goes into that in detail.

All the benefits of that, different training tools for doing it, things like taking a breath, carrying around a stone, like something that you can just hold in your hand. That helps you to remember to be here. So lead with presence is the first step. Then the second step is about where we're coming from. It's about our intention. And this is this is huge. This is a really important meditative training. So the instruction here is to come from curiosity and care. So to learn how to train ourselves to be aware of our intentions,

what's my habit, what's my defaults, and I just trying to like, look good, am I trying to win, am I trying to be right? Yes, I'll agree with you. Right, yeah, and then how well does that work out? Right, you know, what does that do to the quality of the relationship? What does that do to the level of trust

that the other person has in us? Even when we get our way, right? It comes at a cost. It comes at a cost in good will. It comes at a cost in trust. It comes at a cost in the quality of our connection. Right? So there are other ways of getting our needs met that don't have those costs. So it's just a cost benefit analysis to say, yeah, I can kind of like throw my weight around here and make this come out the way I want. But then what's going to happen next time or how are people going to relate to me or what's going to be in that 41 page report? Right?

So to say, okay, it's not about giving up what I want. It's not about, oh, just be nice and let people walk all over you. No, be really clear about what you want, but recognize that part of what matters to us as human beings is our relationships. I mean, we are social creatures and we're continually, part of our mind is continually feeling out. Where do I stand with others? How do they feel about me? How do I feel about them? Do I belong here? Can I trust this person? And one of the places that we feel the most happiness and joy is when we can give, when we can contribute and help out, not because we have to or someone's threatening us or we feel obligated, that sucks.

But when we just genuinely can help out, you know, it's like, yeah, sure I can do that. That feels great. So just like take a moment now, think about the last time you did something for someone just because you wanted to and then last week. Yeah, okay. How's that feel? Good.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was just thinking something very small. I get hung up on that a little bit because I know that I do do things occasionally for no reason other than I give a crap about the other person. Yeah. But a lot of time there is another motivation.

Sure. And I feel like maybe motivation or intention is kind of a spectrum. And it's never just one thing that motivates our action. No, no. And maybe some of it is like, I want to do better on my next three six. Absolutely. Maybe it is, I want this person to like me. Who knows? Right. So two things. So yeah, it's rarely just one thing. We're very complicated creatures. And so our intentions are often multi-colored and multifaceted.

But the question is, what are we cultivating? What are we strengthening? Which ones do we want to follow? And so when we are aware of an intention that doesn't have a certain, that kind of uplifting or steadying or healthy quality to it, like, you know, I want you to like me.

That doesn't really feel good when we're like, right? It's the sense of like pulling or like I feel small inside or like, you have something that I want that I'm trying to get it from you. That feels terrible. So when I'm aware of that, I say, okay, what do I actually, what do I need here? What's actually important to me, you know? Am I, you know, wanting some recognition?

Am I wanting to get ahead in my career? Am I, like, actually wanting to contribute more or feel a sense of success and accomplishment in my life? Am I wanting more friendship in my life? You know, do I want more connection and meaning? So when I start to be aware of those, now you're not the only strategy. And I might still, you know, approach you and be like, hey, you want to go out to lunch

but it's coming from a different place now. Because I know what I want and I'm choosing this and I'm aware if this doesn't work, you know, I've got more options when I'm aware of my need. So I want to get back to two other things. So this sense of like opening the door to giving to that sense of mutual, free, contribution. Another premise of nonviolent communication is that given two choices, okay? All other things being equal, right? Like both options will meet our needs equally. Okay, so I'm not sacrificing something huge

for option A over option B. Given two choices, human beings, unless they're like, you know, severely damaged or psychotic in some way, will naturally choose the option that causes less harm. That because we feel things, because we are empathic, psychotic in some way will naturally choose the option that causes less harm. That because we feel things, because we are empathic, because we have this capacity to be affected by the world around us and feel what other people are experiencing on some level,

even to feel what other creatures are experiencing, given to choices, all our things being equal, we'll choose the thing that doesn't hurt someone, right? Unless there's something going on, some kind of disturbance there that needs to be healed or addressed. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a situation where we can look at what's actually going on and say, look, how do we address all of the underlying concerns that are here in a way to make us work as best as possible for everyone. So intention is a really, really, really powerful quality of powerful factor in our awareness. And we can actually start to cultivate and train ourselves to have different intentions

or to use intentions that are more likely to go in the direction that we want in our life and our relationships. So the whole second training is around examining our default habits and intentions to blame, to judge, to attack, to defend, to view things in terms of right and wrong, should, and should, and to these are the kinds of concepts that make violence enjoyable. Because if you're wrong and you're bad, the user have to be punished. And then being violent, do you make sense? Whereas if I see things through a different lens, it's

not saying that like those concepts don't have use. But if I see things through the lens of, you know, that your actions are creating harm. And I want more safety and respect for myself, my family, my community. Now I'm approaching the situation from a different angle. It's more I see your humanity. I can and I see what what about your actions aren't aren't working. So training ourselves in shifting from our default habitual intentions, which get hard wire, those get kind of coded into our nervous system through experience, through the messages we get from society, and starting to learn how to

come from a different place, it's going to be more likely to bring about what we want. And this is where things like neuroplasticity are so, so powerful. And I go into the book in a little bit about how our nervous system actually gets wired and hooked up in conflict to these other patterns of needing to defend myself or needing to win, right? Because everything we've experienced, not everything, but most of what we've experienced in our life through the education system, through our family, through the media,

is giving us all those messages. That when there's a difference, someone's going to win and someone's going to lose. And I know which side I want to be on. So what we're doing here is we're recognizing, there's another opportunity, actually, that we can actually use conflict to learn, can use it as an opportunity to deepen our relationship. And that's rare. It's rare to use conflict and difference as an opportunity to deepen our relationship. And that's rare. It's rare to use conflict and difference as an opportunity to learn. And one of the key things that we learn when we take that on

and say, I'm actually going to use this, is we learn one of the most valuable skills in life, which is the skill to make peace. Coming up, Warren talks more about creating the conditions for nonviolentviolent communication, and he'll talk about how conflict resolution is not about changing the other person's mind. Keep it here.

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We can all think of times where we actually had a conflict with somebody and it made us closer. Not always the case. Not always, right. But it can be. It can be. And we've had those experiences. So then the question is why? What's the difference?

And that's what the book is really looking at. What are the conditions? Right. In what the book is really looking at is what are the conditions? Right? In meditation practice, we talk a lot about conditions, creating the conditions that are going to be helpful for something. So this is looking at the conditions and a relationship and in a conversation to say what are the conditions that are going to make it more likely that when we have a difference or a conflict that we can hear each other and work through it and come out stronger on the other side. And so the first two areas of training of those conditions are one being present, being mindful, being aware, because the more aware we are, the more choice we have. The second is knowing where we're coming from and and training and being able to get curious.

The single most powerful and transformative intention in communication and dialogue is the intention to understand. Because when you trust, when you can feel that I'm actually trying to understand you, you can stop, you know, trying to defend yourself or protect or get your way. And then when you feel heard and understood, you're more willing to listen to me to hear what's going on from my side of things. This insight is the driving. Inside of the group that I've been very impressed by called better angel. Yeah, they're great familiar with his work. Yeah better angels is a group that puts reds and blue Americans together and in dialogue.

And the goal is you've all seen. together in dialogue. And the goal is you've all seen reds and blues sitting around a conference table moderated by a journalist and they're yelling at each other. We've done a million of their bits, but on 60 minutes, by the ABC news, we do it all the time. Yes, it's kind of like a journalistic trope. Well, that is not what the better angels do. They have a very detailed system designed by the marriage counselor so that they've got a real protocol for how they talk to each other. And the rule number one is you are not trying to change anybody's mind. That is the cardinal rule. And the point is to reach what they call accurate disagreement. So

you're trying to understand what the other group feels correctly, not so that it can be all come by. But just because you want to get down to the level of what people actually feel and why they feel that way. Actually, you've, you've humanized each other and you're not demonizing as we do often through our own sort of media echo chambers that win, which we exist. They're doing great work. And as you said, it's, it's based upon this deeper intention that I'm not trying to get my way I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to understand you

Because when I'm when I'm fixated on trying to push things in a certain direction There's no space for us to hear each other or understand or understand one another and this is like one of the most egregious absences in civil society today and civil discourse is that space of mutual respect and actually trying to understand one another. And it's on both sides, you know, whether you're talking left or right or red or blue, like both sides in general are demonizing the other and not recognizing that, you know, we have very different ideas about how to meet our basic needs as a society. Right? But if we look deep enough, my guess is that most of us want the same thing. Most of us

want to live in a peaceful society. We want we want people to have access to health care and clean water and medicine. We want people to have access to meaningful work. And so the differences are in how we go about that. And so there isn't that sense of being able to shift from the fixation, the obsession with the strategy. And it's possible. It's very possible. A colleague of mine facilitated some groundbreaking legislation in Minnesota on child custody. People across the aisle working together, they never agreed on their views, but they were able to craft legislation

that everyone signed unanimously. Because they were able to develop the criteria to say, well, what's actually important to us? What does this legislation need to meet? What's the bottom line here? It took a lot of time. It took a lot of effort. It was many months.

For those who are interested, you can go to baynvc.org and look up Mickey Cash Tans work on the Minnesota Childs custody legislation. So to get back to the framework, so we're starting with mindfulness and presence, then we're focusing on our intention. So I always like to point out here that two thirds of this, we haven't even talked about what we're saying yet. Because so much of communication talked about what we're saying. Because so much of communication is about where we're coming from and what's going on inside. If that's not there, we can learn all the fancy words and tools we want. We're still going to be running the same trip.

Because it goes back to what you said at the beginning, which is that we can animalistically sense whether the person we're with is listening to us and what they really want, no matter what they robotically said. Exactly. So this brings us to the third step. So once we're here and we've got a helpful positive intention in the conversation. Now the next training, which is where the system and the process of nonviolent communication comes in is learning to train our attention. What are we focusing on? Where are we placing our attention? And this is where the skills of meditation are super useful because meditation in many ways is not only

training and intention, but a training and attention. What do we pay attention to? And so are we focusing on things that are more likely to help us get what we want? And usually our default is to focus on things that actually go in the other direction. We focus on what we don't like. We focus on our disagreements. We focus on the things that happened in the past that are coloring my perception of you right now and our arguments and why you shouldn't and should and are wrong and so forth, versus paying attention to four different things. And this is the core framework of non-violent communication.

We want to train our attention to notice number one, what happened? Not my interpretations, not my judgments and evaluations, just the observation. What actually happened? What am I reacting to here? And so to go back to the 360 review, you know from reading that, I'm sure that the comments where someone says, Dan just always wants to get his way. I'm making stuff up here. Well, well, that's pretty close to what we said. Okay, so that's not so useful. Whereas if someone says, when I sit in meetings with Dan,

he only speaks about his point of view and doesn't ask people for input. That's really useful. Now you have a clear observation about what you're actually doing or saying. That's really useful. Now you have a clear observation about what you're actually doing or saying that's creating this perception or this interpretation and others that you only care about yourself. By the way, I don't know if this is your main to your point, but it's your main to the 360. I don't know if it's your main to the larger point you're driving towards, it's your main to the micro point you're making right now. It actually feels better to be a guy in a meeting asking for other people's input rather than just spouting whatever happens

to be neurotic obsessions that is flitting through your brain. Because you want the input, because then the end product's gonna be better. Exactly. And by the way, that process is more enjoyable. Ironically, not being a jerk is a much more enjoyable way to live.

Yeah. And that goes back to intention to the sense of, you know, what are we ultimately after here and what's the best way to get it, you know, and it is. The outcomes are better when we take other people's perspectives and input into consideration and like, it's more enjoyable. It's not fighting. We're not rigid and narrow and kind of tense inside because we need this thing to happen. It's more like, well, here's my idea. Boke some holes in it. Tell me tell me you know what you think and this is really important in the workplace

Particularly when there's a power differential if someone who has more power is wanting to use these tools to make it really easy For other people to dissent. Yes, I was doing the former and I'm fine at doing the latter I was and I'm probably still doing some of this, hand to mimeing a desire for people to poke holes, but really wanting to just get my way. But I found that drawing, doing a little bit more of the latter, which is like, yeah, let's just help me figure this out. We're down to my benefit, like massively,

not only in my relationships, but also in the end product. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And also relationship, the quality of the work, and also the quality of my life in those moments. Yeah. So I just, I'm knowing.

Well, this, I mean, this is, this is, this is why we're here. I just swagger around to tell people what to do. You don't have to answer that. I want to. Because it's, because it's, it's a question I think all of us have somewhere deep down inside. It's like, why can't I control my world? It's actually a profound question.

Because we have this experience of, there are certain things we can control. We do have influence in certain areas, right? Particularly over our body, depending on our level of health or ability, but we can move around, We do have influence in certain areas, right, particularly over our body, you know, depending on our level of health or ability, but, you know, we can move around, we can eat this or walk there or do that. But then, you know, we start to realize the rest of the world doesn't obey my will.

And that's an experience of frustration. That's called dukkah in the Buddhist world. It's stressful. And so what's happening there from the perspective of contemplative practice is that the universe is giving us feedback. The universe is telling us, you know, Orin, you're not in charge here, actually. And the more you try to control this, the more you're going to suffer.

What happens if you let go? And this is where, you know, letting go doesn't mean giving up what's going to suffer. What happens if you let go? And this is where letting go doesn't mean giving up what's important to us. It means that we understand the limits of our influence. What I like about Buddhism, again, not that I'm like a religious Buddhist, but I see Buddhism, I see journalism, it's a thing I do.

What I like about Buddhism is that you are aligning with small tea truth. It's like the universe is telling you actually, it feels better not to be a jerk. That's what the universe is telling you. If you are aligning yourself with the way things are, you're gonna suffer less. Yes, exactly.

So the model here of non-violent communication is helping us to do that in our interpersonal relationships. It's helping us to align with the way things are. So let me just run down it here. So these four steps within this. The third, we're in the third part right now with the fifth training. We're training our attention. What are we focusing on? We're focusing on four things. One, what happened? What's the observation? Two, how do I feel about it? What are the emotions that are going on in me? Not what I'm telling myself you did to me. I feel betrayed, attacked, manipulated. Those aren't emotions. Those are stories about what you're doing to me. How do I actually feel? Do I feel hurt? Do I feel frustrated? Do I feel annoyed? Do I feel confused? Do I feel frightened, panicked? We're not always sharing that with other people because it's not

always appropriate, depending on the context, but are we aware? If we're not aware of what we're feeling, we're just reacting to the world around us, and we're living in the stories that we're creating. So what happened? How do I feel about it? Third, why? What matters? There's the needs. Why are these feelings going on? Why did this particular behavior, this particular action, this particular statement,

this particular situation? Why am I even thinking about this? If there wasn't something that mattered to me, I would be wasting my time here. So being aware of what actually matters to me. And then last, so what, where do I go from here? What's next? What do I wanna ask of this person in this moment right now?

What can I do to move this conversation or problem forward one step? Not the ultimate solution, not the end point, but just right here right now, how do I create a little bit more understanding and connection together so that we can figure this out? So we're trying to train our attention to identify those components of our experience and to hear that from someone else.

And this is really, this is really huge. So attention is one of our most valuable resources. So, and we know today that millions of dollars going into persuasive technology to capture and retain our attention on our devices. And the result is this kind of massive, kind of tragic fragmentation of our mind, where our attention span is short,

we're pulled in a million different directions, and our minds are so malleable and impressionable, and so what we pay attention to will shape our mind. Whatever we give attention to, that's going to become the dominant theme of our consciousness. So where we place our attention is really important and as human beings, one of the key insights that we have in contemplative practice is when I'm aware, I can choose where I put my attention. And it's a super small subtle thing. It's like what's the big difference if I pay attention to my thoughts or listen to the sounds around me or feel my body. What it makes a huge difference because depending on what we're paying attention to,

that's influencing the whole internal atmosphere and landscape of our mind. And so we're training ourselves to actually choose where we put our attention in a conversation and putting our attention in places that are more likely to help us understand one another and figure things out. And so where this comes in is not only in how we express ourselves so being able to be able to say to someone, hey, when you came to my office and you said that thing, I was a little bit confused and kind of perturbed. I'm really wanting us to work together on this project

and move things forward in a way where we're both having input. There's the need in a really colloquial way. I'm wanting collaboration and teamwork, but I'm not saying, I need collaboration and teamwork. No, I'm telling you what's important to me. Like, you know, I want us to work together and make sure that we have checkpoints where we're both giving input. Right? And so then I'm going to make a request. And I say, listen, you know, can we talk a little bit more about the workflow and how we handle these choice

points? Right? I'm not cutting straight to the chase to the end, which is one of the mistakes we make. We focus on the solution. It's like I need you to do this. No, no, no, no, no, dial it back a little bit. You don't know where this is gonna go. Can we just have a conversation about this? Can we explore this some more?

I wanna understand where you were coming from. Maybe you had a reason that I didn't know about. You know, I wanna tell you a little bit more about where I'm coming from to make sure that I'm being clear and that you understand me So that's not expressing herself The other side of it is obviously listening hearing where someone else is coming from and this is where the tools are Pretty amazing and transformative when we can use them in a natural way

One of the things Marshall Rosenberg used to say that I love is he said never listen to what people think about you You'll live longer and enjoy your life more ever listen to what people think about you. You'll live longer and enjoy your life more. Instead of listening to the judgments that people have, you're so selfish, you're arrogant, you know, or you're whatever, okay? The stories that people are telling us, all their judgments say,

listen to what matters to them. Listen to how they're feeling, and listen to what they need. Obviously, you know, you did or said something, it didn't work for them. But the judgment in the blame, that's just their interpretations. So all judgment can be understood as a kind of counterproductive and tragic expression of our unmet needs. It's just how we've learned to express something when it's not working for us. So if you're late, I feel hurt and offended. I might have

a judgment. You're being disrespectful and you're only care about yourself and think the world revolves around you. Well, you hear that and you say, I'm so sorry. It sounds like they don't work for you. Really hearing you want some more respect for your time want to know that, you know, I'm taking you into consideration. Yeah, is that right? So it can defuse a situation. I mean, one doctor I was working with doing some training works in addiction medicine and a patient screaming at him because he needed to cut off his his opioids prescription was over and he had to transition out. because you needed to cut off his opioids. Prescription was over, you need to transition out.

Within five or 10 minutes of using these tools, of just reflecting back to the person, what he was hearing, what matters to you, how you're feeling, you know, really hearing you want some choice over your care, really hearing, you know, you're in a lot of pain, you need to make sure that you have some relief, and get that, you know, guy was smiling and laughing.

So these are powerful tools for understanding one another and transforming our conflicts and relationships. Up next, Orrin talks about using your regular everyday conversations as the training ground for better communication. And he talks about his view that communication is a learnable skill and the most powerful lever for positive change in an individual life. We'll be right back. Let me just get back to the question I asked at the beginning that we didn't actually close out. Great. Which is a lot of our conversations aren't,

somebody's screaming at us. Yes. A lot of us, it's just like whatever. We're just chitchatting in the office or having a transactional discussion with my wife about who's gonna do what, vis-a-vis the kid, or whatever. Well, that one I could is a little bit more freighted.

Then, just I don't know, sitting around, I was just, I told you I was on a shoot in Arizona with right right two producers I really like and we had a lot of spare time we're just around talking that's great so I don't know what are the needs in those moments right so they're two things so one those are the moments that we train it's really hard to learn the stuff when you're in a conflict. Because everything's going bonkers inside. Alarm bells are going off, your hormones are rushing, there's emotions, you're like, oh my god, how I forget this out.

And those persons mad at me. That's not the time to try to learn how to communicate. You know, if you want to learn to swim, you don't jump in the ocean on the stormy day. You go to a pool in the shallow end. So those like really relaxed, nothing conversations, that's where you start. That's where you start training yourself, just to see if I can be present.

Can I stay aware while I'm just shooting the breeze with somebody? Great, great training ground, low stakes. Doesn't matter, you can take your time, you can practice pausing. You know, where am I coming from? Can I start to be aware of my intentions? Can I start to be aware of my needs? Can I start to be aware of my needs? So a lot of our chit chat is meeting a very important need for us as human beings,

which is a need for healthy social connection. Social engagement activates the parasympathetic nervous system. When we look at another human being, when we talk and we listen, all the neural architecture there, of the vagus nerve stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system and it helps us to regulate and to relax. It's called co-regulation. When we're having easy light conversation, it's soothing for our nervous system. So we're meeting a very,

a number of really basic important needs for connection, for belonging, for enjoyment, for a sense of ease. Those are really, really good for us as human beings. We need a lot of that. We need more of that. Now, we don't do that enough in our life these days because everything is so mechanized and systematized and instant touchscreen get there right now. Well, we're not chatting because we're,

we're Instagramming. Right, exactly. That's one of the things that we're trying chatting because we're Instagramming. Right, exactly. That's one of the things that we're trying to learn and to shift out of with these tools is to recognize that conversation is an organic process. It's not Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. It's not a touch screen. It's not a text message.

It takes time. You have to listen. You've got to pause, you have to breathe. It doesn't go in a straight line. So we're coming back into our bodies, coming back into the natural world of, you know, you go out into the forest or you go walk in a park through our straight lines. Everything's, you know, this way and that way and upside down and that's what conversations like.

It's a mess, but we can learn to be at ease and to be in a flow with that mess. We're coming toward the end here, and I want to let you plug away as we do with all of our guests, plug everything you got going. But is there anything before we do that that we've any big thing that we miss that we should talk about? The one thing that I want to say,

like if there's one message that I want people to take away from listening to this, it's that communication is a learnable skill. And it's one of the most, you know, a lot of people talk about hacks like life hacks. You're looking for a life hack that will have a positive effect on every area of your life, learn to communicate better. It's the most powerful lever for positive change in your life

because we do it everywhere. And it's very accessible. So aligned with my central thesis as a public figure, which is that all of the things we want are skills. You know, happiness, patience, gratitude, generosity, focus. These are all skills. And because of the brain's capacity, because of neuroplasticity, we can actually through behavior,

through how we use our attention, how we apply our intention, we can develop these capacities. So your question or point. Yes. Can we apply these skills? You talked about Instagram, we don't want to pick on Instagram, but Twitter or Facebook, can we apply these skills? You talked about Instagram. Yeah. We don't want to pick on Instagram, but on Twitter or Facebook. Yeah. Can we apply these skills? Absolutely. I hope so.

Absolutely. Email and social media are generally tone deaf mediums. It's practically impossible to read the tone of someone's voice or where they're coming from. And some OGs and gifts and sense emojis and gifts. And if there's my rule of thumb and I have learned this the hard way more times than I care to admit, if there's anything emotionally charged about the interaction, pick up the phone or get together in person, don't try to do it over email. Obviously, they're exceptions because sometimes it is easier to do it in writing because it's too charged in person and then you have more time to kind of think things through. That's a different situation in general. Don't try to have difficult or meaningful conversations

over email because it's so ripe for misunderstanding because you can't read tone. That's number one. Number two, and all of the skills apply. So presence, training and mindfulness, just that ability to pause before you hit send. Oh my God, right? And again, like I generally consider myself a fairly adept learner. It has taken me so long to learn when I've got that feeling and I've

just written an email and I'm like, er, you know, just okay, Lauren, let's just leave the draft and come back to that tomorrow and reread it and see if I'm going to send it or not or change it. Wow, that takes a lot of willpower. It does. And, you know, I've learned, I've learned the hard way. If, you know, if one email and then you've got like, you know, what is it? Like weeks of cleaning up a mess with somebody where it turns into 10 emails or three phone calls in a meeting, you're like, Jesus, I only had not sent that one email. So just pausing, if we just did that,

we would change our online relationship a lot. So that's one. And then using these other tools, I'm really checking, you know, where am I coming from here? What kind of energy am I putting out there into the world with this message? What am I modeling? You know, am I modeling the values that I want

to see in the world and my modeling respect, empathy, kindness, patience, mutual understanding? And we can start to actually communicate in those ways online with choosing our words more carefully, being aware of our intention and taking time to pause and slow down. So, plug-zone. Plug-zone.

Yeah, I want to get everything, please. Yeah, yeah. So, I am super excited. I turned 40 last year and I've got a book coming out. It's like, it's such a great gift. It's like, wow. And I'm just really, I'm really thrilled to get to share these tools with people. It's such an great gift. It's like, wow, and I'm just really, I'm really, I'm really thrilled to get to share these tools with people. It's such an amazing

thing. Like I wish everyone had these tools. I wish everyone knew about this stuff. So the book is called, say what you mean a mindful approach to nonviolent communication. At the best way to stay in touch and learn more about my teaching and my work is through my newsletter. I write two personal emails a month and send out a guided meditation or an article or a link to a free event. And my website is orangeaysofer.com. Thanks again to Orrin. Thank you as well to all the people who work so hard on this show. Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justin Davy, Kim Baikama, Maria Wartell, and Jen Pliant, with our audio engineering

aces over at Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you in a couple of days for a brand new episode. We got a big one. It's Brunei Brown talking about her new book and her new TV show. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts.

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