Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 165: Oren Jay Sofer, Practicing Mindful Communication

Episode Date: December 12, 2018

In every conversation we have, from mundane to serious, our personal motivations drive what we say. But most of the time we are not aware of what our personal motivations are and we can end up mindlessly saying something that causes conflict with someone else. Oren Sofer has spent years studying this and has written a how-to guide to help people apply mindfulness techniques to have more meaningful conversations. He describes the importance of learning to communicate better as a "life hack" that will have a positive effect on every area of your life. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. For ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

You ever tune out in the middle of a conversation with somebody? You ever, ever check your email in the middle of a conversation with somebody? Do you ever lose your temper in the middle of a conversation? Ever say something you later regret? You ever feel like you're failing to get your message across? You ever feel like you're talking past? Whoever you're talking to? I think most of us have had these feelings.

Can meditation help? Damn straight ahead. And our guest this week, Orin Sofer, is an ace on this score. He spent years looking into how to use meditation as a communication tool. And just as you've heard me say a thousand times that happiness, patience, gratitude, compassion, these are all skills. Well communication is a skill too. And it can help you in pretty much every area of your life, including your interpersonal relationships and your work life. So this is a pretty important episode. Orange got a new book, say what you mean. So we're going to talk about all of that coming up.

I think this is a really, really, really good episode. But first, let's do your voice mouse. Here's number one. Hi, Dan. My name is Dusty. I am a huge fan of 10% happier. I listen to the podcast every week, and I find the coaches on your app extremely helpful. So thank you so much. The reason that I'm calling is because I'm a physician assistant and I've been talking about mindfulness patients for a few years now and I find it it really works and I really enjoy talking to the patients about that. But recently I was asked by a physical therapist

if I want to teach mindfulness at the rehab center. On one hand, I'm very excited to Talk and teach about something that I love so much, but on the other hand, I'm concerned that my ego will try to make me into the next Guru I want to be. And so I wondered if you have any advice or tips for somebody like me who's thinking about teaching. So thank you very much and keep up the great work, Dan. Thanks, man. Appreciate that. I also want to get to the question, but I love that you shouted out the coaches on the

10% happier app. They need more love. Just to amplify that point, if you are a subscriber to the app, you get a coach, a real person who's been teaching, who's been practicing meditation for a long time, and they can answer your questions quickly and in great detail, and it's an incredible resource, something we're really proud of.

And that leads to your question, which is, should you be feeling comfortable teaching? I'm a little bit of a hardliner on this, not super hardliner, but in the tradition out of which I emerge, Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzburg, tradition, the people who teach in that tradition and who teach on our app have been doing this for a long time. And, you know, I've said this before in the podcast, you know, I compare it sometimes to my wife, who's got years and years and years of medical training,

med school, advanced degree, and before med school, and infectious diseases, and then fellowship, and residency, and all this stuff. And these meditation teachers, many of them, have that level of training, you know, years and years and years of And these meditation teachers, many of them, have that level of training, years and years and years of sitting on silent retreat. And because it's such a responsibility to get under the hood of somebody's mind and to be able to give them advice in this really intimate way, that being said, to guide somebody

in basic meditation with the caveat. you know, if you're open about the fact that, hey, I'm a practitioner, I don't know how much practice you just do have, but speaking generally, if you've been practicing for a decent amount of time, a couple of years, and you kind of know what you're doing, to be able to give people the basic meditation instructions, well, I don't see the problem with that. I do that, and I don't have the problem with that. I do that and I don't have the level of experience that I described that our teachers do. And so, and I've actually taught, I've personally had the question you have. I remember going to my teacher, Joseph Goldstein, and

saying, Hey, people are asking me to guide them in basic meditation when I give a speech somewhere. Is that okay? And he's like, yeah, it's only fine. Just don't present yourself as some sort of guru. And that goes to the other part of your question, which is, you don't watch your ego to swoop in and start telling you some big story about how you're some fancy guru. Well, that's always a risk. And by the way, that's a risk for actual gurus.

We've seen me too, the Me too movement, sweep through the Buddhist world recently and take people down. So, you know, it is possible. And history would suggest that even people who have spent decades becoming bonafide gurus can run into problems. So, yeah, I'm not going to wave you away from that issue, but I'm also not going to say that you shouldn't do a little bit of teaching if you feel like you've got enough meditation under your belt and you want to give people the basic instructions. I think that's fine. I think if you want to get into teaching in a more formal way, though, you probably should

have some credentials. And there are ways to do that. There are places out there that offer certification for instructors. I believe the Center for Mindfulness of the University of Massachusetts Medical School in Worcester does some of that. I believe there's a program that's run through sounds true, which is a publisher. I think that's Tara Brock and Jack Cornfield have a thing through them

You can also take a look at IMS the Insight Meditation Society and Barry Massachusetts and also spear rock in on the West Coast and check out what they're doing in terms of training people to teach. I think there are options out there and you should avail yourselves of them, yourself of them, but in terms of anybody who's listening in, you want to go out and just teach a little bit of meditation to your friends or informally to some of your co-workers. I don't think it's a big deal to teach people the basics of myfulness meditation, as long as you're honest about your level of experience. All right, let's do voice men number two.

Hey Dan, I'm calling from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and I did have a quick question for you. Well, I'm not sure if it'll be quick or not, but here it goes. I read your book, 10% happier, and I've been doing a lot of reading ever since dabbling in some Buddhist and meditationitations and style books. So my question for you is a lot of these things talk about how essential it is to be authentically yourself. Is it possible to be authentic to yourself without giving everyone your life story? I know you've been very open with your past, but what if you're someone that, let's say,

under the lens of trauma, and it's just not the best for you emotionally or spiritually to be authentically yourself to everyone that you meet? Maybe it's because there was, it's gonna upset somebody, I don't know, but for whatever reason, do you think it's possible to be authentically yourself without necessarily giving everyone your life story?

Thanks so much, look forward to hearing from you and enjoy your day, bye. Thank you, and I think I can make the answer quick to that. I think the answer is yes. It really just depends on the context. I think it's a common sense thing. I don't give my life story to everybody. I meet everywhere.

I wrote a book about it. If you are a master guest and you want to actually read that book, you can do it. But I'm not walking around telling everybody I meet at ABC News about what a moron I was at various points in my career and how to panic attack and blah blah blah. It's more like, if the time is right and I feel like it can be useful, I may say something about it. I think that's probably true for whatever story you have. I've never quite known what being authentically yourself actually means. I mean, just maybe not being full of crap and being honest. But being honest, I think something about the or something that I heard

the Buddha say that I'm think I'm going to be able to reproduce somewhat accurately is he talked about right speech or wise speech and you know, say the truth and say it at the right time. And that strikes me as pretty common senseical and also wise. So I think you should be honest with people, but that doesn't mean you need to tell them everything always. But it's a great question and I can see why you would wrestle with it. And especially if you need to protect yourself, I definitely don't think you need to share anything you're uncomfortable sharing, and that a failure to do so makes you inauthentic.

I don't think so at all. I think you have to make sure that, especially if you've got trauma in your past, that you're careful about that. All right, well, thank you for the question. Both questions, as always, it's really awesome to, so that we get these questions coming in. And as I said last week, we're going to start pretty soon,

getting the teachers themselves to come and answer some of these questions. All right, so Orren Sofer, who's a friend and a teacher on the 10% happier app, has a new book called Say What You Mean. It's all about, well, the subtitle is a mindful approach to nonviolent communication. Nonviolent communication is not a term he made up. It's actually a way of, and you'll hear him talk about this.

It's a system for communicating that is, as advertised, nonviolent, but there's a specific meaning of violent within that context. Anyway, before we get into this conversation, let me just say that if you're into what Orrin, Orrin is one of the most popular teachers on our app, and actually you can find new meditations from him on his profile page on the app that these meditations are directly related to his new book, which again is all about the fact that communication is a learnable skill. You can apply it directly to people.

You can apply it in your online life, which has become an increasingly complex area for communication of late. And finally, let me just say this, he has a very interesting personal story. He was a child actor. We don't cover that here because he has been on the podcast before.

So if you want to learn more about how he got into meditation in the first place, et cetera, et cetera, I recommend you scroll back in the feed and check that out. But this time we're going to dive deeply into how to use meditation to be better at communication. So I'm going to stop talking and let Orrin communicate. Here we go. I just see my friend. You too. It's good to be back here. So just tell me about the book. I was just saying to you apologetically before we started rolling that I haven't had a chance to read it. I have to say that to all the guests, which makes me a horrible podcast

host. But so just walk me through the book. Yeah, but it gives me a chance to explain it. Cool. So the book is kind of the result of the last 20 years of my practice. You know, I started meditating when I was 19 and five or six years in, I found, hey, this stuff is great, but every time I open my mouth, it goes out the window. And what good is that, you know? Well, I know that feeling. Yeah. So, um, so I was very lucky to stumble across this guy named Marshall Rosenberg, who

founded not this practice called nonviolent communication. And I took to it immediately, as quickly as I took to meditation, it was one of those things where the first time I heard about it, I was like, oh my God, this can change my life. This is amazing. And so very quickly, I started taking classes and workshops and eventually going on these communication retreats. I was like amazed. I didn't even know that you could learn how to communicate better. And that kind of blew my mind because communication is the one thing that we all do in every context of our life. And it's like one of the most important factors that determines our success at work,

the quality of our relationships at home or with friends. And yet it's the thing that most of us have the least training in. So I was really hungry for tools. And so then over the years, I started realizing that the mindfulness practice and the clarity of awareness and the strength of qualities like kindness or patience or restraint were so necessary for the communication tools I was learning that you know if you can't be aware Good luck having a meaningful conversation with somebody, right? you know, if you can't be aware, good luck having a meaningful conversation with somebody, right?

So over the last 15 or 20 years, the two really came together in me. And so the book say what you mean, a mindful approach to nonviolent communication is how do you learn these tools with mindfulness and awareness as a foundation? What, tell me about nonviolent communication. I guess I get an initial pang of annoyance

when I hear the term is like, oh my God, okay, what is this? So what about it spoke to you? I love that, Dan. A lot of people get an initial pang of annoyance and then unfortunately, a lot of people get another dose of annoyance when they talk to people who have learned a nonviolent communication because they've learned it often incorrectly. They've learned it in this kind of rigid form.

And so you're talking to someone and they sound like a robot or it feels like they're manipulating you and you're like, what are you doing? Stop. You know, just be normal. So one of the things that I emphasize a lot when I teach communication is, it's not about what you say. It's not in the words. You know, so much of our communication is nonverbal.

It's in the tone of our voice. It's in our expressions, our body language. It's in things that are even more subtle, you know, that we can't put our finger on. We are like, you know, I just, everything he said sounded good, but I don't trust him. Right? And it's like, we can't say why. So it's not about what we say. It's about where we're coming from.

And the quality of connection and understanding that we're able to create with someone. So, so what is nonviolent communication? So the shorthand is NVC. Nonviolent communication was founded by this man named Marshall Rosenberg. And he grew up in Detroit in the 40s and he lived through the race riots. And I think it was 43 or 44 and like dozens of people were killed within a few blocks of his house. This has had a huge impact on him as a as a small child. He was like, oh my god, you know, people might try to kill you for the color of your skin. And then going to school as a young Jewish boy and Detroit, he was the subject of a lot

of anti-Semitism and physical violence. And then you realize, okay, people might want to hurt you because of your last name. So this had a really strong impression on him. But then he was also exposed to people like his uncle who took care of his grandmother who was paralyzed. And his uncle would come over the house every night and wash her and feed her, and he would he would just be beaming. He would be so happy to be helping and giving to his mom. And so Marshall was like, what's going on here? How come some people when their needs

aren't met resort to violence? And other people are able to feel so much joy in giving to other human beings? So this kind of set him out on a mission to learn and understand more about the nature of violence and the nature of human relationship. So he studied with people like Carl Rogers who found that humanistic psychology, he did some of his own research. And what he found was that one of the key things that makes a difference in whether or not we will see violence as a viable strategy to meet our needs is how we think about things and how we speak at the concepts that we use to understand our world can either make violence seem really logical and even enjoyable or can help us to stay connected to our shared humanity.

So what is violence? So you know, we hear that word we usually think, okay, it's, you know, physically harming someone, but obviously there's a lot more that's like poverty, right, is violence. Lack of education is a form of violence in some way, insult, insults, right, verbal. So, you know, one thinker, Johan Galton defines violence as any avoidable impairment of basic human needs. So Marshall Rosenberg discovered this process that he termed a nonviolent communication, and he called it that for two reasons. One, because of this connection between the way we think and speak in our actions,

and two, to place it within the tradition of Gandhian and Kingian nonviolence, because he really saw it not just as a process for better interpersonal communication and relationships, not just as a way of having more connection with ourself, you know, in life, and particularly these days, we can get estranged from ourselves, where we lose connection with our own sense of purpose or meaning or direction in life. So not only is it useful for those purposes, but it's a tool for social change. We're actually looking at what's happening in society, the way our institutions are structured, and using language, using how we think about things to

create change. So that's the context. Non-violent communication is founded on a few premises. One of the main ones being that our conflicts happen at the level of our strategies, our ideas about what we want in life. But that fundamentally, all human beings share the same basic needs. So in one way or another, we all want to be happy. We all want our children to grow up in peace and have education and, you know, access to medical care. We all want a sense of meaning and purpose. We want respect, understanding, things like that. And then our, you know, those, those very and relative importance, depending on who

we are or, you know, what stage of life we're in, and our ideas about how to meet those needs, also vary quite a bit. So the process of nonviolent communication is one of training ourselves to notice this deeper level of our experience in ourself and in others and learn to understand the our choices, our actions, our relationships from this different perspective. And when we can really understand what actually matters in a situation, not just what I think I want, but why I want it. There's a lot more room to understand each other, to see things from other perspectives, and then eventually to collaborate, which is the purpose, to actually be able to work together to address whatever needs are present. But so much of communication.

I've been taking some communication, I'll only step back further. I've talked about this in the podcast recently. I haven't talked about it to you one on one. But I had what's called a 360 review, you know, one of those. Sure. So that's where you hire a firm and they talk to people, you know, all aspects of your life. Yeah, yeah.

Above, below, parallel, yeah. The joke I've been making is that the conclusion of the report from my perspective was you suck from every angle and it was a pretty harsh report. Really. Yes. Oh, that's hard But it was it's incredibly useful. I feel very positive about it. Totally Feedback is so important. That's how we learn. Yeah. Yes. I didn't have many feedback mechanisms other than Twitter and my wife. And so I knew some of my deficiencies, but I just didn't have it like a 41 page report with all of these anonymous quotes before. So now I have a kind of Bible, which is really useful, especially since I'm writing a book

about kindness. Anyway, Joseph Goldstein, a mutual friend of ours, great meditation teacher, had recommended this couple who I'm sure you live near them. So I'm sure you know them. Moodyda, Niskar, and Dan Clermann, they teach them basic communication. They teach communication, right? So I've been working with them a little bit on Skype and really like that. That gets me to the question, which is one of the things I've bumped up to against

with them. They don't teach NVC. They just have a sort of mindfulness infused communication techniques. Is a lot of our conversations are just shooting the bulls Should it be easier? With people in the office or at home, they're not, I don't have a, maybe I do have a basic need that's trying to be met there, but I'm really aware of it. They're not free-did conversations.

There are occasionally throughout the day a big meaningful conversation and often I'm unprepared for it. It's like, my wife's got something she wants to talk to me about. I'm just sitting there watching TV. So I have to switch into a mode where I'm unprepared for it. It's like my wife's got something she wants to talk to me about and I'm just sitting there like watching TV. So I have to switch into a mode where I'm really listening and it takes me a minute to recognize, oh no this is a big conversation. But most of what we're doing is like, hey you're one of the store can you get me an avocado? Or somebody pops their head in my office and just like tells me some funny gossip and we're just, or you know, or tells me about some shoot they just did,

and you know, for Nightline and blah, blah, blah. And so again, I don't know necessarily that there's a need that's being met in a lot that we're aware of in these like, you know, I kind of think about it like two facts machines beeping at each other, you know, that, or two dogs sniffing each other's butts. There's a certain amount of like,

just transactional conversation that happens that isn't some big conversation where you have a need and you've got to figure out what your strategy to get that you've met, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's great. So a few different things to hit there. So the first is the acknowledgement that this distinction between a strategy and a need is shared, the language is different, but it's shared in many, if not all, different communication

techniques, conflict resolution diplomacy, that other systems will talk about the difference between a position and an interest or a deeper concern. Right. So there's this, there's this sense that there are these different levels to our awareness and our behavior. And what happens is we get fixated on the specifics. Right. I want this to happen. I need you to do that for me. Those are strategies or positions. Right. And when we get fixated on a particular outcome, there's less space to hear each other,

to dialogue, to negotiate. We get shut down and locked into this very narrow, narrow view. That's the first thing is that that's a shared framework among many kinds of communication styles. Second, what do we mean by need? This is really important, because that word is pretty loaded, it's pretty charged. If you come to someone, you're like,

hey, I really need more space in our relationship. I was like, whoa, that's kind of heavy. What do I do with that? So what we mean by this word need is not a quality of neediness, not a quality of desperation or self-centeredness. What we mean by that is a fundamental core value that's shared by human beings. So the word need is kind of unfortunate because of the connotations it carries in our culture. But the phrase that I actually like to use the most is what matters to us in our life.

And so the understanding here, and this is getting to your question, is that all human behavior can be seen as an attempt to meet some underlying need, to satisfy something that matters to us. And if you just step back and think about it, it's like, why do human beings do stuff? We do stuff because there's something

that's important to us. We might not be aware of it, and that's the difference, and that's what's so powerful about this technique. So when we're unaware of our needs, when we're unaware of what matters, of why we're doing the stuff that we do, we're not at choice.

So if I don't know why I'm popping into your office and shooting my mouth off, or if I don't know, you know, why I'm, I don't know, not answering someone's email or picking up my phone to look at my feed. If I don't know what's actually happening inside, what I'm ultimately after, what is this going to give me? Do I need some relief?

Do I want to break? Do I need to relax? My feeling a little bit, you know, isolated or lonely and I just want to connect so I pop my head into your office. So the needs are there. There's something that's mattering to us. Otherwise we wouldn't be doing it. But we're just not aware of it.

And so one of the trainings is to become more aware of what's actually motivating me. Why am I doing this? And we can see everything through that lens. And when we start to it can really transform our life because we start to realize, I don't want to do that. So tell you a short story. A colleague of mine was teaching some of this stuff at a workshop, having to be in Israel, and teaching this very concept that, you know, everything we do, we do to meet some deeper, basic underlying value or need. That's shared, it's universal. So this gentleman at the workshop was driving home, reaches for a smoke in his car and he pauses, okay. All right, let's give this stuff a, you know,

if this is really true, then I'm trying to meet some need here, you know, by smoking a cigarette, okay, well, what need am I trying to meet? Who thinks about it for a little bit? He says, oh, I want to relax, I want to break. I don't want to take my mind off things. Yeah. She is. I have better ways of doing that than smoking and quit. I don't need to smoke to relax and take my mind off things. Obviously not everyone has the willpower to kick a habit like that, but that

illustrates this difference. I wish I would have thought of that last night when I ate a bunch of granola bars mindlessly Right exactly. What was that? What was what did I need? I don't know, you know, well Do you have a sense what you were feeling? What emotions are present at all? Tired. Okay. I was a little hungry. Okay. So tired. I felt like I needed a treat because I had just taken my kid So we're recording this on November 1st. I had just taken my kid trick or treating, but I don't need dessert anymore. And so like, I was surrounded by all these treats that I couldn't have that I did want.

So you wanted some pleasure. Yeah. You wanted some pleasure, some sense of enjoyment. Yes. Yeah. You know, Dan needs a little bit of something. Yeah. Uplifting. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Dan needs a little bit, a little bit of something. Yeah. Uplifting. Yeah. Right. So then when we're aware of that, it's like, yeah, that's a healthy, that's a healthy inclination. Pleasure is really important in life. You know, it's just a question of what kind of pleasure are we going towards, you know, addictive, unhealthy pleasure, or are we going towards healthy pleasure, something that actually nourishes us. So when we're aware of that, then we can make a different choice. Sometimes we eat, like emotional eating, we might eat because we're in pain and we need some relief.

Sometimes we eat because we're overstimulated and we need to ground. When your belly is really full. It's very grounding. You know, so lots of times emotional eating will be like, oh, I just need to be here more, but there are other ways to do that. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah. So, um, no, it's great.

So maybe back to the book. So what's the book about? So the book, it's a guide to how to have more meaningful conversations that bring people together. And it's really a practice manual. It's like a step-by-step guide with stories and exercises. And so the three basic steps, the basic framework, is that the first step is to lead with presence.

And this is the basic training and mindfulness that if we wanna have a meaningful conversation, if we don't wanna create a big mess that we have to clean up later, we've gotta be here. We have to learn not just how to be present in our meditation practice, but how to be really present with another human being, how to be aware of what's happening in ourself,

how to sense and track what's happening for the other person, and not get like you say your phrase, not get yanked around by our thoughts and our emotions. So this is there are all kinds of ways for bringing mindfulness into our conversations and relationships. So it's kind of this translation of meditation. You could say it's an interpersonal meditation. So like even right now as we're sitting together and you're nodding your head a little,

you know, you can feel that movement. You can feel the weight of your body, right? And so as I point that out now, notice the difference may be a little bit in your level of awareness, how here you feel, right, or how much sense of connection there is between us. So, in those kinds of skills of grounding and being present, that's that's like gold when you're in a difficult moment with somebody, because the mind just takes off. You know, the mind just goes into, I can't believe you did this and how come and the last time this happened and I'm never gonna again and you always, right, if we follow that stuff, forget it, it's over. But if we can just pause.

Okay, just some right here. You know, that's the foundation for having effective conversation. So, that's the first training. And the first part of the book goes into that in detail. All the benefits of that, different training tools for doing it, things like taking a breath, carrying around a stone, like something that you can just hold in your hand.

That helps you to remember to be here. So lead with presence is the first step. Then the second step is about where we're coming from. It's about our intention. And this is this is huge. This is a really important meditative training. So the the instruction here is to come from curiosity and care. So to learn how to train ourself to be aware of our intentions. What's my habit, what's my defaults, and I just trying to like look good? Am I trying to win? Am I trying to be right? Yes, right. Yeah, and then how well does that work out?

Right if you if it you know, what is what does that do to the quality of the relationship? What does that do to the level of trust that the other person has in us? You know even when we get our way Right it comes at a cost. It comes at a cost in good will. It comes at a cost in trust. It comes at a cost in the quality of our connection, right? So there are other ways of getting our needs met that don't have those costs.

So it's just a cost benefit analysis is saying, yeah, I can like, I can kind of like throw my weight around here and make this come out the way I want. But then what's going to happen next time or how are people going to relate to me or what's going to be in that 41 page report? Right? So to say, okay, it's not about giving up what I want. It's not about, oh, just be nice and let people walk all over you. No, be really clear about what you want. But recognize that part of what matters to us as human beings is our relationships.

I mean, we are social creatures. And we're continually part of our mind is continually feeling out. Where do I stand with others? You know, how do they feel about me? How do I feel about them? Do I belong here? Can I trust this person? And one of the places that we feel the most happiness and joy

is when we can give, when we can contribute and help out. Not because we have to or someone's threatening us or we feel obligated, that sucks. But when we just genuinely can help out, it's like, yeah, sure, I can do that. That feels great. So just like take a moment now, think about the last time you did something for someone, just because you wanted to in the last week. Yeah, okay.

How's that feel? Good. Yeah. I was just thinking something very small. Yeah, like what? I just, I was in Arizona for a couple days with a couple of producers who I really like and one of them is also a dad. His kid is a year older than mine. And I left it a little early to get home for Halloween. And I was trying to get him to leave early with me, but he couldn't because he needed to pack up his gear. But I knew he had a flight that would get him in

at least in time to like, he'd be home by six. So his five year old would still be up. So I sent him a text just to make sure he got, you know, the flights had made sure it there. I was curious to get to see your kid for Halloween. Nice. So not a huge thing. Not a huge thing, but pay attention

to how it feels inside, that sense of considering another person reaching out, is that offering. Yeah, it feels good. It's a good feeling, right? Yeah. Much more of our conversation right after this quick break. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life.

But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so- so expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong.

What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So what we're trying to do with these skills

is to access, because that feels good for everyone when we can help out. So we're trying to create the conditions where that sense of spontaneous giving can arise. We're like, I'm not doing stuff for you because I'm afraid of you, or because I have to, or because I want something from you, but I'm doing it because I understand

how it's gonna contribute to your life. And so I'm willingly saying, I'm not sure. But so, sorry, just because I get hung up on that a little bit because I know that I do do things occasionally because for no reason other than I give a crap about the other person. Yeah. But a lot of time there is another motivation.

Sure. And I feel like maybe motivation or intention is kind of a spectrum and it's never just one thing that motivates our action. No, no. And maybe some of it is like, I wanna do better on my next 360 or maybe it is, I want this person to like me.

Who knows? Right, so two things. So yeah, it's rarely just one thing. We're very complicated creatures. And so our intentions are often multi-colored and multi-faceted, right? But the question is, what are we cultivating? What are we strengthening?

Which ones do we want to follow? Right? And so when we are aware of an intention that doesn't have a certain, that kind of uplifting or steadying or healthy quality to it, like, you know, I want you to like me, that doesn't really feel good when we're like, right? It's that sense of like pulling or like I feel small inside or like, you know, somehow you have something that I want and I'm trying to get it from you, that feels terrible.

So when I'm aware of that, say, okay, what do I actually, what do I need here? What's actually important to me, you know? Am I, you know, wanting some recognition? Am I wanting to get ahead in my career? Am I actually wanting to contribute more or feel a sense of success and accomplishment in my life? Am I wanting more friendship in my life?

Do I want more connection and meaning? So when I start to be aware of those, now you're not the only strategy. And I might still, you know, approach you and be like, hey, you want to go out to lunch, but it's coming from a different place now. Because I know what I want and I'm choosing this and I'm aware if this doesn't work, you know, I've got more options when I'm aware of my need. So I want to get back to two other things. So this sense of like opening the door to giving, to that sense of mutual free contribution. Another premise of nonviolent communication

is that given two choices, both of which, all other things being equal, right? Both options will meet our needs equally. So I'm not sacrificing something huge for option A over option B. Giving two choices, human beings, unless they're severely damaged or psychotic in some way will naturally choose the option that causes less harm. That because we feel things, because

we are empathic, because we have this capacity to be affected by the world around us and feel what other people are experiencing on some level, even to feel what other creatures are experiencing, given two choices, all our things being equal, we'll choose the thing that doesn't hurt someone. Unless there's something going on, some kind of disturbance there that needs to be healed or addressed. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a situation where we can look at what's actually going on and say, look, how do we address all the underlying concerns that are here in a way to make this work as best as possible for everyone. So intention is a really, really, really powerful quality of powerful factor in our awareness.

And we can actually start to cultivate and train ourselves to have different intentions or to use intentions that are more likely to go in the direction that we want in our life and our relationships. So the whole second training is around examining our default habits and intentions, to blame, to judge, to attack, to defend, to view things in terms of right and wrong, should and should and should and to these are the kinds of concepts that make violence enjoyable. Because if you're wrong and you're bad, then you deserve to be punished. And then being violent, do you make sense? Whereas if I see things through a different lens, it's not saying that like those concepts don't have use. But if I see things through the lens of, you know, that your actions are creating harm and I want more safety and respect for myself, my family,

my community. Now I'm approaching the situation from a different angle. It's more I see your humanity and I see what about your actions aren't working. So training ourselves in shifting from our default habitual intentions, which get hardwired, those get kind of coded into our nervous system through experience, through the messages we get from society, and starting to learn how to come from a different place, it's going to be more likely to bring about what we want. And this is where things like neuroplasticity are so, so powerful.

And I go into the book in a little bit about how our nervous system actually gets wired and hooked up in conflict to these other patterns of needing to defend myself or needing to win, right? Because everything we've experienced, not everything, but most of what we've experienced in our life through the education system, or our family, through the media, is giving us all those messages. That when there's a difference, someone's gonna win and someone's gonna lose.

And I know which side I wanna be on, right? So what we're doing here as we're recognizing, there's another opportunity, actually, that we can actually use conflict to learn. We can use it as an opportunity to deepen our relationship. And that's rare. It's rare to use conflict and difference as an opportunity to learn. One of the key things that we learn when we take that on and say, you know, I'm actually going to use this is we learn one of the that on and say, you know, I'm actually going to use this is we learn one of the most valuable skills in life, which is the skill to make

peace. We can all think of time, but we're actually had a conflict with somebody and it made us closer. Not always the case. Not always, right. But it can be. It can be. And we've had those experiences.

And the question is, why? What's the difference? And that's what the book is really looking at, is what are the conditions? In meditation practice, we talk a lot about conditions, creating the conditions that are gonna be helpful for something. So this is looking at the conditions and a relationship and in a conversation,

to say, what are the conditions that are gonna make it more likely that when we have a difference or a conflict, that we can hear each other and work through it and come out stronger on the other side. And so the first two areas of training are of those conditions are one being present, and training and being able to get curious. The single most powerful and transformative intention in communication and dialogue is the intention to understand. Because when you trust, when you can feel that I'm actually trying to understand you, you can stop trying to defend yourself or protect or get your way. And then when you feel heard and understood, you're more willing to listen to me to hear what's going on from my side of things.

This insight is the driving insight of a group that I've been very impressed by called Better Angels. Yeah, they're great. Familiar with his work, yeah. Yeah, so Bill was was Bill's last name. I'm spacing out his last name. Yeah. That's embarrassing because Bill was the star of a nightline story I did about the Better Angels.

You're going to look it up on your computer while I talk. So, Better Angels, and I've talked about these guys on the podcast before, but they, it's a, and I'm trying to get Bill to come on the podcast. The next time we meet in New York, Better Angels is a group that puts red and blue Americans together and in dialogue. And the goal is you've all seen reds and blues sitting around a conference table moderated by a journalist and they're yelling at each other.

We've done a million, it's been on 60 minutes, by ABC News, we do it all the time. It's a kind of like a journalistic trope. Well, that is not what the better angels do. They have a very detailed system designed by the aforementioned Bill who's a marriage counselor, so that they've got a real protocol for how they talk to each other.

And the rule number one is you are not trying to change anybody's mind. That is the cardinal rule. And the point is to reach what they call accurate disagreement. So you're trying to understand what the other group feels correctly, not so that it can be all combined up, but just because you want to get down to the level of what people actually feel, and why they feel that way. Actually, you've humanized each other, and you're not demonizing as we do often through our own sort of media echo chambers that win which we exist.

Good, and I can find Bill's name. Anyway, Bill is great, and we'll be looking on this next step. I can find it while you talk on the phone. Okay. Yeah, thank you. They're doing great work and as you said, it's based upon this deeper intention that I'm not trying to get my way. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to understand you and and those are the conditions that we can create in our in our life in our relationships in our conversations relationships, in our conversations. Dirty. Dirty, thank you. And because when I'm fixated on trying to push things in a certain direction, there's no space for us

to hear each other or understand or understand one another. And this is like one of the most egregious absences in civil society today and civil discourse is that space of mutual respect and actually trying to understand one another. And it's on both sides, you know, whether you're talking left or right or red or blue, like both sides in general are demonizing the other and not recognizing that, you know, we have very different ideas about how to meet our basic needs as a society, right? But if we look

deep enough, my guess is that most of us want the same things. That's right. Most of us want to live in a peaceful society. We want people to have access to health care and clean water and medicine. We want people to have access to meaningful work, you know. And so the differences are in how we go about that. And so there isn't that sense of being able to shift from the fixation, the obsession with the strategy. And it's possible. It's very possible.

A colleague of mine facilitated some groundbreaking legislation in Minnesota on child custody. People across the aisle working together, they never agreed on their views, but they were able to craft legislation that everyone signed unanimously, because they were able to develop the criteria to say, well, what's actually important to us? What does this legislation need to meet? What's the bottom line here? It took a lot of time. It took a lot of effort. It was many months. For those who are interested,

you can go to baynvc.org and look up Mickey Cash Tans work on the Minnesota Childs, Childs, custody legislation. So to get back to the framework, so we're starting with mindfulness and presence, then we're focusing on our intention. So I always like to the framework, so we're starting with mindfulness and presence, then we're focusing on our intention. So I always like to point out here that two thirds of this, we haven't even talked about

what we're saying yet. Because so much of communication is about where we're coming from and what's going on inside. If that's not there, we can learn all the fancy words and tools we want. We're still going to be running the same trip. But it's because it goes back to what you said at the beginning, which is that we can animalistically sense whether the person we're with is listening to us and what they really want, no matter what they robotically said. Exactly.

So this brings us to the third step. So once we're here and we've got a helpful positive intention in the conversation. The next training, which is where the system and the process of nonviolent communication comes in, is learning to train our attention. What are we focusing on? Where are we placing our attention? This is where the skills of meditation are super useful. Meditation, in many ways, is not only a training in intention,

but a training in attention. What do we pay attention to? And so, are we focusing on things that are more likely to help us get what we want? And usually our default is to focus on things that actually go in the other direction. We focus on what we don't like. We focus on our disagreements. We focus on, you know, the things that happened in the past that are coloring my perception of you right now and our arguments and why you shouldn't should and are wrong and so forth versus paying attention to four different things.

And this is the core framework of non-violent communication. We wanna train our attention to notice number one, what happened? Not my interpretations, not my judgments and evaluations, just the observation. What actually happened? What am I reacting to here? And so to go back to the 360 review, you know from reading that, I'm sure that the comments where someone says, you know, Dan just always wants to get his way.

I'm making stuff up here. Well, well, that's pretty close to what we said. Okay. So that's not so useful. Whereas if someone says, you know, when I sit in meetings with Dan, he, he only speaks about his point of view and doesn't ask people for, for input. That's really useful. Now you have a clear observation about what you're actually doing or saying that's creating this perception or this interpretation and others that you only care about yourself. By the way, I don't know if this is your main to your point, but it's your main to the 360.

I don't know if it's your main to the larger point you're driving towards, it's your main to the micro point you're making right now. It actually feels better to be a guy in a meeting asking for other people's input rather than just spouting whatever happens to be neurotic obsession that is flitting through your brain. Because you want the input because then the end product is going to be better. Exactly. And by the way, that process is more enjoyable. Ironically, not being a jerk is a much more enjoyable way to live. Yeah.

And that goes back to intention to the sense of, what are we ultimately after here and what's the best way to get it? And it is, the outcomes are better when we take other people's perspectives and input into consideration. And like you said, it's more enjoyable, because we're not fighting, we're not rigid and narrow

and kind of tense inside, because we need this thing to happen. It's more like, well, here's my idea. Boke some holes in it. Tell them, tell me, tell me, you know, what you think. And this is really important in the workplace, particularly when there's a power differential, you know, if one person, if someone who has more power is wanting to use these tools to make it really easy for other people to dissent.

Yes. Well, I was doing the former and I find that doing the latter is I was I was I was and I'm probably still doing some of this. Hand to mime a desire for people to poke holes but really wanting to just get my way, right. But I found that drive doing a little bit more of the latter, which is like, yeah, let's just help me figure this out. He's redowns to my benefit, like massively, not only in my relationships, but also in the end product.

Yeah, exactly. And also, so it's relationship, the quality of the work, and also the quality of my life in those moments. Yeah, so I just, I'm knowing. Well, this, I mean, this is, this is why we're here. I just swagger around to tell people what to do. You don't have to answer that. I want to.

Because it's, because it's a question I think all of us have somewhere deep down inside. It's like, why can't I control my world? It's actually a profound question, you know, because we have this experience of there are certain things we can control. We do have influence in certain areas, right, particularly over our body, you know, depending on our level of health or ability, but, you know, we can move around, we can, you know, eat this or walk there or do that. But then, you know, we start to realize the rest of the world doesn't obey my will. And that's an experience of frustration. That's called dukkha in the Buddhist

world. It's stressful. And so, you know, what's happening there from the from a perspective of contemplative practice is that the universe is giving us feedback. The universe is telling us, you know, Orrin, you're not in charge here, actually. And the more you try to control this, the more you're gonna suffer. What happens if you let go? And this is this is where, you know, letting go

doesn't mean giving up what's important to us. It means that we understand the limits of our influence. But there's also something, I don't know if I'm going to be able to articulate this, and I might be about to make an idiot of myself, which is common on my own show. There's something about being a line, what I like about Buddhism. Again, not that I'm like a religious Buddhist, but I see Buddhism like I see journalism. It's a thing I do. But I like about Buddhism, again, not that I'm like a religious Buddhist, but I see Buddhism like I see journalism, it's a thing I do. What I like about Buddhism is that you are aligning with small tea truth.

It's like the universe is telling you actually, it feels better not to be a jerk. That's what the universe is telling you. If you are aligning yourself with the way things are, you're going to suffer less. Yes. Exactly. So the model here of non-violent communication is helping us to do that in our interpersonal relationships. It's helping us to align with the way things are. So let me just run down it here. So these four steps within this. Because we're in the third part right now with the way things are. So let me just run down it here. So these four steps within this. Because we're in the third part right now with the fifth. We're training, we're training our

attention. What are we focusing on? We're focusing on four things. One, what happened? What's the observation? Two, how do I feel about it? What are the emotions that are going on in me? Not what I'm telling myself you did to me. I feel betrayed, attacked, manipulated, those aren't emotions. Those are stories about what you're doing to me. How do I actually feel? Do I feel hurt? Do I feel frustrated? Do I feel annoyed?

Do I feel confused? Do I feel frightened, panicked? We're not always sharing that with other people because it's not always appropriate, depending on the context, but are we aware? If we're not aware of what we're feeling, we're just reacting to the world around us, and we're living in the stories that we're creating. So what happened? How do I feel about it? Third, why? What matters? There's the needs. Why are these feelings going on? Why did this particular behavior, this particular action,

this particular statement, this particular situation, why am I even thinking about this? If there wasn't something that mattered to me, I wouldn't be wasting my time here. So being aware of what actually matters to me. And then last, so what, where do I go from here? What's next? What do I want to ask of this person in this moment right now? What can I do to move this conversation or problem forward one step? Not the ultimate solution, not the end point, but just right here right now, how do I create a little bit more understanding and connection together so that we can figure this out?

So we're trying to train our attention to identify those components of our experience and to hear that from someone else. And this is really huge. So attention is one of our most valuable resources. Right? So, and we know today that, you know, there's millions of dollars going into persuasive technology to capture and retain our attention on our devices. And the result is this kind of massive, tragic fragmentation of our mind, where our attention span is short, we're pulled in a million different directions, and kind of the whole, our minds are so malleable and impressionable. And so what we pay attention to will shape our mind.

Whatever we give attention to, that's gonna become the dominant theme of our consciousness. So where we place our attention is really important. And as human beings, one of the key insights that we have in contemplative practice is when I'm aware I Can choose where I put my attention and it's a it's a super small subtle thing. It's like What's the big difference if I pay attention to my thoughts or listen to the sounds around me or feel my body. What it makes a huge difference because depending on what we're paying attention to, that's

influencing the whole internal atmosphere and landscape of our mind. And so we're training ourselves to actually choose where we put our attention in a conversation and putting our attention in places that are more likely to help us understand one another and figure things out. And so where this comes in is not only and how we express ourselves. So being able to, being able to say to someone,

hey, when you came to my office and you said that thing, I was a little bit confused and kind of perturbed. I'm really wanting us to work together on this project and move things forward in a way where we're both having input. There's the need in a really colloquial way. I'm wanting collaboration and teamwork, but I'm not saying, I need collaboration and teamwork. No, I'm telling you what's important to me.

Like, you know, I want us to work together and make sure that we have checkpoints where we're both giving input, right? And so then I'm gonna make a request. And I say, listen, you know, can we talk a little bit more about the workflow and how we handle these choice points, right? I'm not, I'm not, I'm not cutting straight

to the chase to the end, which is one of the mistakes we make. We focus on the solution. It's like, I need you to do this. No, no, no, no, no, dial it back a little bit. You don't know where this is going to go. Can we just have a conversation about this? Can we explore this some more? I want to understand where you were coming from. Maybe you had a reason that I didn't know about. I want to tell you a little bit more about where I'm coming from to make sure that I'm being clear and that you understand me. So that's expressing yourself. The other side of it is obviously listening, hearing where someone else is coming from.

And this is where the tools are pretty amazing and transformative when we can use them in a natural way. One of the things Marshall Rosenberg used to say that I love is he said, never listen to what people think about you. You'll live longer and enjoy your life more. Instead of listening to the judgments that people have, you're so selfish, you're arrogant, you know, or whatever, okay? The stories that people are telling us, all their judgments, listen to what matters to them.

Listen to how they're feeling and listen to what they need. Obviously, you know, you did or said something had been work for them. Listen to how they're feeling and listen to what they need. Obviously, you know, you did or said something, it didn't work for them. But the judgment in the blame, that's just, that's just their interpretations. So all judgment can be understood as a kind of counterproductive and tragic expression of our unmet needs. It's just how we've learned to express something when it's not working for us, right? So if you're late and I feel hurt and offended, you know, I might have a judgment, you know, like you're being disrespectful

and you're only care about yourself and think the world revolves around you. Right? Well, you hear that and you say, oh, I'm so sorry. It sounds like they don't work for you. I'm really hearing you. You want some more respect for your time. I want to know that I'm taking you into consideration.

Is that right? So it can defuse a situation. One doctor I was working with doing some training works in addiction medicine at a patient screaming at him because he needed to cut off his his opioids. Prescription was over and he had to transition out. Within five or ten minutes of using these tools of just reflecting back to the person what he was hearing. What matters to you, how you're feeling, you know, really hearing you want some choice over your care, really hearing, you know, you're in a lot of pain, you need to make sure that you're that you have some relief, I get that, you know, guy was smiling and laughing.

So these are these are powerful tools for understanding one another and transforming our our conflicts and relationships. I agree, but let me just get back to with a question I asked at the beginning that we didn't actually close out. Great, which is a lot of our conversations aren't, you know, somebody's screaming at us. Yes. A lot of us, it's just like whatever.

We're just chitchatting in the office or having a transactional discussion with my wife about who's gonna do what vis-a-vis the kid or whatever. Well, that one I could is a little bit more freighted than just, I don't know, sitting around, I was just, I told you I was on a shoot in Arizona with two producers I really like and we had a lot of spare time. We were just sitting around talking. That's great.

So I don't know what are the needs in those moments. Right. So there are two things. So one, those are the moments that we train. It's really hard to learn this stuff when you're in a conflict. Because everything's going bonkers inside. Alarm bells are going off, your hormones are rushing, there's emotions, they're like, oh my God,

how I forget this out, and those persons mad at me. That's not the time to try to learn how to communicate. You know, if you want to learn to swim, you don't jump in the ocean on the stormy day. You go to a pool in the shallow end. So those like really relaxed, nothing conversations, that's where you start. That's where you start training yourself just to see if I can be present. Can I stay aware while I'm just shooting the breeze with somebody? Great, great training ground,

low stakes, you know, doesn't matter. You can take your time. You can practice pausing. You know, where am I coming from? Can I start to be aware of my intentions? Can I start to be aware of my needs? So a lot of our chit chat is meeting a very important need for us as human beings, which is a need for healthy social connection. Social engagement is, um, activates the parasympathetic nervous system. When we look at another human being, when we talk and we listen all the neural architecture there of the vagus nerve, uh, stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system and helps us to regulate and to relax. Sometimes called co-regulation.

When we're having easy light conversation, it's soothing for our nervous system. So we're meeting a very, a number of really basic important needs for connection, for belonging, for enjoyment, for a sense of ease. Those are really, really good for us as human beings. We need a lot of that. We need more of that.

We don't do that enough in our life these days because everything is so mechanized and systematized and instant touchscreen get there right now. Well, we're not chatting because we're Instagramming. Right, exactly. And so that's one of the things that we're trying to learn and to shift and to shift out of with these tools is to recognize that conversation is an organic process.

It's not Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. It's not a touch screen. It's not a text message. It takes time. You have to listen, you've got to pause, you have to breathe. It doesn't go in a straight line. So we're coming back into our bodies,

coming back into the natural world of, you know, you go out into the forest or you go walk in a park through our straight lines. Everything's, you know, this way and that way and upside down and that's what conversations like. It's a mess, but we can learn to be at ease and to be in a flow with that mess. We're coming toward the end here,

but it's, and want to do a I'm gonna let you plug away as we do with all of our guests. Plug everything you got going, but is there anything before we do that that we've any big thing that we missed that we should talk about? Just pause and say he's applying his own techniques here, to him. I can think of one thing, but I don't know if it's too big of an issue to cover in our remaining time. Well, what do I say the one that comes to mind, and then you can throw yours out there,

the one thing that I want to say, like if there's one message that I want people to take away from listening to this, it's that communication is a learnable skill. And it's one of the most, a lot of people talk about hacks like life hacks. You're looking for a life hack that will have a positive effect on every area of your life, learn to communicate better. It's the most powerful lever for positive changing your life because we do it everywhere. And it's very accessible. And it's just so aligned with my central thesis as a public figure, which is that all of the things skills. You know, happiness, patience, gratitude, generosity, focus. These are all skills. And because of the brain's capacity to learn, because of neuroplasticity, we can actually

through behavior, through how we use our attention, how we apply our intention, we can develop these capacities. So your question or point? Yes. And I don't know if this will be, we can do this quick enough, given that I was late for this, and we both have to move on. But so if this is... By the way, I was not offended at all that you were late. I gave you a heads up in advance.

You did, and I was totally, yeah. Yes offended at all that you were late. I was in a tough time. I gave you a heads up in advance. You did. And I was totally. Yeah. Uh, yes, my schedule is a war zone. But I did, I did have the wherewithal to tell you and Ryan, who's producing this show that I was going to be a little bit late. Can we apply these skills? You talked about Instagram. Yeah.

And we don't want to pick on Instagram, but on Twitter or Facebook. Yeah, can we apply these skills? Absolutely. I hope these? Absolutely. I hope so. Absolutely. I mean, email so, so I think we can address this briefly and I'll say two or three things. So number one, email and social media are generally tone deaf mediums. It's practically impossible to read the tone of someone's voice or where

they're coming from. And some OGs and gifts. And sense emojis and gifts. And if there's my rule of thumb and I have learned this the hard way more times than I care to admit, if there's anything emotionally charged about the interaction, pick up the phone or get together in person, don't try to do it over email. Obviously, they're exceptions because sometimes, you know, it's like, it is easier to do it in writing because it's too charged in person and then you have more time to kind of think things through. That's a different situation in general.

Don't try to have difficult or meaningful conversations over email because it's so ripe for misunderstanding because you can't read tone. That's number one. Number two, and all of the skills apply. So presence, training and mindfulness, just that ability to pause before you hit send. Oh my God, right?

So, and again, like, I generally consider myself a fairly adept learner. It has taken me so long to learn when I've got that feeling and I've just written an email and I'm like, ah, you know, just okay, Lauren, let's just leave the draft and come back to that tomorrow and reread it and see if I'm going

to send it or not or change it. Wow, that takes a lot of willpower. It does. And, you know, I've learned, I've learned the hard way. If, you know, if one email and then you've got like, you know, what is it? Like weeks of cleaning up a mess with somebody where it turns into 10 emails or three phone calls in a meeting, you're like, Jesus, I only had not sent that one email. So just pausing, if we just did that, we would change our online relationship a lot. So that's one. And then using these other tools, I really check, you know, where am I coming from here? What kind of energy am I putting out there into the world with this message? What am I modeling? You know, am I modeling the values that I want to see in the world and my modeling respect, empathy, kindness, patience,

mutual understanding? And we can start to actually communicate in those ways online, with choosing our words more carefully, being aware of our intention and taking time to pause and slow down. We did, you did handle that quickly. So, plug-zone, plug-zone.

Yeah, I won everything, please. Yeah, yeah, so I am super excited. I turned 40 last year and I've got a book coming out. It's such a great gift. It's like, wow, and I'm just really, I'm really thrilled to get to share these tools with people. It's such an amazing thing. Like, I wish everyone had these tools.

I wish everyone knew about this stuff. The book is called, Say What You Mean, A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication. It's on sale now and it's available December 11th that will be dropping. There's a ton of great gifts that come with it, including some free access to 10% happier app to my courses and guided meditations on the app. So say what you mean is available for purchase and non-sale December 11th. Otherwise, the best way to stay in touch and learn more about my teaching and my work is

through my newsletter. I write two personal emails a month and send out a guided meditation or an article or a link to a free event. And the best way to get on my newsletter is to is just through text message. So and you get six free guided meditations and a free ebook, a bunch of gifts when you subscribe. So the best way to do that is to just text the word guided G-IDD, like guided meditation. So just text that one word guided to the number 4 4 2 2 2. And the text message will walk you through the steps and you'll join my newsletter. And my website is orinjsofer.com. If you want to learn more, I'd be really happy to hear from you and stay in touch.

O-R-E-N-J-A-Y-S-O-F-E-R. You got it. .com. You got it. That's right. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me back, man. Great to see you again. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% Happier Podcast.

If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe. Rate us. Also, if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in, hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. Importantly, I wanna thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohen,

and the rest of the folks here at ABC, who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

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