Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 167: Ben Feder, Making Every Day a Sabbatical

Episode Date: December 26, 2018

Ben Feder was the CEO of a tremendously successful company, but it was coming at great personal cost. Returning home from his worldwide business travels, he greeted his family, only to realize how disconnected he felt from them. For years he had sacrificed time with his family to focus on his work, but at this moment he decided something needed to change. He embarked on a year-long sabbatical, in a very big way. He gave up his job, pulled his kids out of school and moved his family from New York to Bali. He explains how that journey changed all of their lives. Have a question for Dan? Leave us a voicemail at 646-883-8326. The Plug Zone Website: https://benfederauthor.com/ Author: Take Off Your Shoes https://benfederauthor.com/product/take-off-your-shoes Twitter: @BenFederAuthor Facebook: @BenFederAuthor See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

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Have you ever had the fantasy? I've had this fantasy many times of just like quitting everything and running away, maybe not running away, but kind of running away, just absolutely changing your life, leaving behind your job, and a lot of your daily responsibilities to completely switch it up. You're about to hear the story of somebody who did that, who walked away from a really high-powered job. He was Ben Fetter is his name, and he was the CEO of a huge video game company, take to entertainment.

They've done huge video games like Grand Theft Auto. He was the CEO of this thing. And he realized that he didn't have the relationship with its children that he really wanted. And that was really taking a toll on his family. He has four kids. And he decided he was going to take the kids and his wife. Obviously, this wasn't just him deciding.

He consulted his wife and his children before doing this. But they all signed on to go to Bali for a year. And it's a really interesting story. He's written a book about it. And you're going to hear him tell it. And you'll hear him talk about the role of meditation and all of this because that became a big thing that he was doing in Bali and

What it meant for his life when he came back? And I push him on this because I suspect some of you already thinking this all right Well, this guy was a CEO of some big company. He's got a ton of money He can just take off a year and go to Bali but he has a lot of interesting things to say about the fact that taking a sabbatical in your life is actually doable. That if you take a hard look at the stories you're telling yourself about why you can't make a change like this, that his argument is that your inner opposition to this idea

will often fall apart under close scrutiny and he talks about ways in which you can actually do this and there's a way to have this kind of perspective shift in your own life without being as radical geographically as he got. So Ben Federer's coming up, this is a really interesting interview where he got me thinking a lot about how I organize my own life. That's coming up.

Let's get your voice males. Here's number one. Hey, Dan, what I'm having a problem with is focusing solely on my breath. It simply is difficult for me to have open awareness because I've been meditating and focusing solely on my breath for so long that when a guided meditation directs me to something as such as sound or feeling or light, I have a hard time focusing on that once my next breath comes up. I'm wondering what I can do to not solely focus on the breath, but be more aware of other things going on during that time.

Which leads me into my second question, when you're sick or have a cold or a cough, how can you meditate effectively when you can't breathe effectively? This is Jeff from Detroit. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. I'm going to give you my opinion here. I should say, though, in the future, we're going to be bringing in actual meditation teachers to answer some of these questions, because we did a survey not long ago, and that was one of the requests from you, the listeners.

So we're we're we listened, and we're we're gonna we're working on that and in fact next week we're doing an all voicemail edition of the podcast and we're bringing in one of my all-time favorite teachers and one of my dear friends Jeff Warren who's gonna be with me to answer your questions for the whole the whole whole episode so All that being said, I'm gonna I going to give you my opinion as somebody who's not a teacher, but does quite a bit of meditation, which is, so what? So what if you can't do other kinds of meditation, open awareness, focusing on noise, that the breath can take you all the way, all the way to where I don't know. But like, it just, if the rest of your meditation

career is focused on the breath, great. And, you know, if you're using the app or using some other app or whatever to do guided meditations, just stick to the breath ones. To me, I don't hear a huge problem with that. And it also seems to me the fact that you're so good at being focused on the breath seems to me that you have good powers of concentration. So yeah, unless you feel that somehow you're missing out on some key part of the meditative experience by not doing these other practices, I wouldn't get too hung up on it. Just do the go with the breath for a while. And also I've just noticed in my own brief meditation career that it tends to go through phases

where you're on one practice in a really dogged way or an ardent way. And then some other practice, for some reason becomes more attractive. You switch from the breath to open awareness or to meta or loving kindness, slash friendliness, meditation. It's all fine and this may be just a phase or maybe the thing you do for the rest of your meditation life and that also would be fine. So I'm not sure that's the advice

you were looking for but that's that's I've been thinking about your question since it was submitted to me not long ago and that that's the answer that I keep coming back to. And then when you have a cold, I know you get stuffy, but you're still breathing. So, I'm a little confused there. So, I would focus on the breath as it sounds. Maybe you're focusing on the breath as it comes into the nose. And so, that would focus on the breath as it sounds. Maybe you're focusing on the breath as it comes in through the nose. And so that's frustrating because you're maybe braiding through your mouth or whatever. But maybe you can switch your focus to the abdomen there because as far as I know that that shouldn't change much even when you have a cold, even though the whole thing is annoying.

So yeah, that's my response. And for anybody else who has a cold and it doesn't have the issue Jeff has where having trouble switching away from the breath to other forms of meditation, if you have a cold and you are really used to focusing on the breath as it comes through the nostrils, I think having a during that period might be actually a good time to switch to other forms of meditation such as open awareness or sound or loving kindness. Alright, Jeff, thank you. Appreciate that.

Let's do another voicemail. Hi, Can. This is Ann, calling from Los Angeles. Love your show. And my question is that I have recently started when I meditate in voluntary movement. I'm immediately pulled into movement. And I want to know your perspective on if I should meditate on stillness. I don't really want to do this because I'm a mover. I've been practicing different various Kundalini practices,

which is very much into the movement. And I'm actually going, you've motivated me to go on to retreat at Spirit Rock in about five weeks. And I've reached out to them too, because I'm really struggling on if I should stop this movement saying or meditate on saying to stop moving, or if I can just kind of go with it and be there. But anyway, so if you could give me perspective on this because again the research

I've done on the web, it kind of seems like the Buddhist perspective is to practice to be still. So anyway, I really appreciate your work, keep it up, and thanks so much. Okay, bye. Thank you. I've been thinking about this. I've been struggling with this one too, because I have so many follow-ups I'd like to ask, which is why I'm glad you're going on a retreat at Spirit Rock, which is an incredible retreat center

north of San Francisco. I'm glad you're going there because all the teachers there are deeply qualified. And I think sitting with a teacher and maybe on day two where you're three where you'll get some one-on-one time with a teacher. I think they're going to really be able to give you good advice on this. But just from a high high level and I talked about this recently on a podcast, one of the recent episodes, it's not uncommon to have involuntary movement during meditation and I don't think it's that

big of a deal. As I believe I said recently, Joseph Goldstein, my teacher once pointed out both that it's normal and that there may be some ways in which you're subtly feeding, or to officially kind of feeding the movement, and you can kind of look for that and maybe slow that down a little bit. It is true that generally speaking, Buddhist meditation or mindfulness meditation

is focused on stillness, unless of course we're explicitly doing a moving meditation. But when you're seated, we're not moving much, if at all. But involuntary movement is something that is super common. But again, it gets a little tricky because of the issue that Joseph raised around. There may be ways in which you're actually voluntarily moving that you're not quite aware of on some level

So looking at that can can be interesting, but I noticed from myself That when I get really concentrated that there's a certain amount of rocking back and forth And so I just play with the instructor and that Joseph gave that there may be a certain amount of involuntary movement That you can't do anything about that's the nature of involuntary movement but the extent that it's voluntary you may want to look at that and see if if if you're feeding it. All right, good luck and and I'm really excited to hear that you're going on retreat. I think that's a great idea. Ben Federer, our guest this week, he is currently an executive at a senior executive at a company called Tencent,

which is a Chinese global conglomerate that dominates, according to his bio, the internet-related media and technology industries over in China. They do a lot of stuff here in North America as well, and Ben is the president of International Partnerships for Ten Cent. He used to, as I said before, the CEO of Take 2 Interactive, which is a massive video game company. Ben left Take 2 in order to go to Bali with his four kids and his wife and he wrote about it in a book, a new book called Take Off Your Shoes. And his story is super interesting. And as we said before, lots of questions about

whether this is doable for the rest of us, and I found his pushback to be super interesting. So here we go, here's Ben Federer. All right, so I always start with the same question, which is how did you get interested in meditation? How did I get interested in meditation? I was in an airport one day and I came across a book by a guy named Young Gear Rinpoche. Yeah, Ming Gear. Young Gear Rinpoche. He's been on this podcast. Yes. Yes. He's back because he went on walkabout for a little while.

He disappeared. He almost died. He came and told the whole story. I don't know the story. Not going to listen to that story. It's great. Actually, it's worth listening to. He's a fascinating guy. He has a fascinating guy. So, I mean, he, you know, so you know, his story kind of, he writes, he wrote a book called Joyful Wisdom, and I read about it. And so his story is, you know, but our listeners might not go ahead and tell it. So he grows up in Nepal, which with what he would describe today as severe anxiety disorder. In a world where there's lots to be anxious about, right? He lived in a house on a side of a mountain that could get blown off at any time and has to go down and get water.

And he grows up really anxious about this. And so he finds himself, I think his father was among also, he finds himself in a monastery. Anyway, he ends up making his way to the west and He sees the shining cars and the malls and he thinks wow everybody here must be so happy and Then he kind of realizes what's going on and they're driving to the malls, but their shoulders are up at their ears and So he goes about on this inquiry of what's really happening in people's minds and offers a solution Which is mindful meditation and I found the whole thing really compelling and I thought it was really interesting and at the time I was really hard charging really had to win

at all costs and what were you doing I was the CEO of a public company called Take To Interactive which which those you don't know which which creates games like grant. Auto Red Dead Redemption NBA 2KK, and really great titles like that. So it was a big company. It was a turn around to the troubled company. Massively competitive industry. Massively, yes, and a lot of very colorful personalities. And the truth is, I was really enjoying it. I really, I love what I was doing. So it kind of appealed to me,

but the other thing that went on at the time was that, because it was a turnaround, I was circling the globe multiple times a year. And as the years went on, I kind of realized that I really didn't know my children anymore. How many? I have four kids. And when I started, my youngest was three years old,

and then she was turning seven. And she didn't really have much to do with me. And I remember walking, it was almost been not in a moment. I walked home, walked in my apartment from school one day, sorry, from work one day. And I saw my, I knocked in the door of my son's room, and I said, hey Sam, he kind of grunted something intelligible.

And then at dinner he just grunted some more. And I realized that while I've been circling the globe, he's been sequestering his room doing his work because he's a serious student. And he could go to a competitive high school and then he'd really be barricaded in there. And I realized it's like, okay, it goes to high school, and these off to college, and he's gone, it's over. And meanwhile, I'm just like running around, doing my thing, enjoying it,

but still realize that there was a cost to everything I was doing. And I had this moment, it was benign, but I had this moment of like, well, this is where it happens. This is where fathers and husbands become the men they never intended to be. Everybody goes into these situations, thinking, oh, I'm just going to abandon them and focus

on my job. And I was just an ambitious guy. It wasn't like it wasn't super here. I was just an ambitious guy. I was kind of pushing, pushing, pushing. And so between that kind of baseline anxiety that you have by running a company like that, shareholders and stakeholders everywhere. And realizing what was going on at home, I just sort of realized I needed a break. And I went to my board one day and I said, look I've done everything you've asked me to do.

We've taken the company from Death's Door to one of the best position companies in the industry, in an exciting industry, I owe my family some time. Often when people step down for something and say, I'm doing it to spend more time, I finally immediately get fired. Right. And I remember actually the lawyer who was in the board at the time when he came to talk to me after, because I just thought you got fired.

I was like, no, actually, I just made a decision for me and for my family. In fact, I told the board I wanted to take some out of the client I wanted to come back, and I couldn't blame them. The company had been in a lot of trouble. I said, I'll be back in a year. I was like, no, that's not happening. The CEO doesn't get to leave. It's just too goofy.

I totally understood that. But I was prepared to sort of look, look, they couldn't do it, they couldn't do it. And I'd do what I'd always done in my career and figure something out and start again. That was fine. But it wasn't like you just wanted to take a year off. You actually had the plan was significantly more ambitious than that. Not much. Really? Because you ended up going for it, I did, but just because who I am, right? I see. I see. I see. So I go to, so we, so we, I pulled my four kids out of school and the whole family decamped to Bali and Dinesha.

Well, that's when I met by ambitious. Oh, I see. Um, I thought you were kind of way, you know, on the other end of, uh, that's a bad. No, no, no, I meant, I meant, sorry sorry i meant the plan it wasn't like i just want to take a year off to you know make sure i helped my kid my home his homework and in in our apartment in new york city you went to bolly right so i'm for some reason had to be at the farthest ends of the earth for me to got really get away it's funny that my wife had read uh...

uh... a year in provance which is kind of an older book of family that took us about it But went from London to France and You know realize it just wasn't far enough because they're for six months. They were just hosting all their friends and So we decided we just needed to go someplace far away We want to be some do something creative and something really interesting and have our kids have a cultural experience We toured with kind of just traveling the world honestly and I'm glad we didn't do that. We did a little bit of traveling on the back end of it and realized you get tired of being a tourist pretty quickly and I thought it was important for them to

really learn a culture and get themselves out of their New York minds that they totally had that New Yorker view of the world which is there's Manhattan and everything else is somewhere else and and, um, and that's not true. It's not very, you would know. Uh, you know, and so it was wonderful to see, especially my older kids, kind of this awakening that they had when they forget the meditation, kind of awakening, but just even a political awakening, they went to an amazing school in Bali called the Green School, which has a bespoke environmental curriculum.

And it really tries to teach kids to be global citizens. And it's so not the attitude in New York, of just getting to a good college. And it really was eye-opening for them in a way that's lasted many, many years later. The environmental aspect of it, the global citizen aspect of it, the sense of having a joy of learning instead of just getting the grades and getting into good colleges and the achievement orientation of all of it. And that's totally stayed with all of us. But to watch that awakening for ourselves and for our children and sort of see how they reoriented their values and their priorities was a gift to them

and as a gift to me in my life. I can hear this little voice of just channeling a listener out there who's thinking, this is some first world problems that you have. You and a luxury that you had that most people won't ever get to. Okay, so I get this and I really, I push back a little bit. Go. Because, and I shouldn't, right? I should just accept it because everybody believes it. No.

But I'll push back a little bit. No, yes. So it turns out Bali is a bit of a mecca for people going on sabbatical. E-Pray love. And I ran into all sorts of people there. Most of the people there were not people of great means. There were nurses and teachers and farmers and photographers and you know God knows what right. It wasn't bankers and lawyers and consultants. There were some of

those too but it wasn't full of those. The book that I read to prepare myself for the sabbatical was something called Escape 101 had a go on sabbatical without losing your money or your mind. And it was not written for guys with means. It was written for people dying in their cube and wanting to do something with their lives. And the prescription was, look, have a plan, have a mindset of doing this.

And I don't care if it's one year, three years or five years from now, have a plan, don't go to the movies over the weekend, save the money so that you can have that amazing experience in five years from now. And so when I told people that I was going on some medical, they said, I wish I could do that. I was like, well, then do it. And then you hear the litany of responses of why they can't do it. And you know, I had made this liberating decision for myself, and I just realized it was all nonsense. And you think about what goes on in people's minds

and the excuses they make about why they can't do something, and you realize it's all nonsense. It's funny, because I'm just sitting here thinking I could never do that. And I feel like it's totally not nonsense what I couldn't do. But probably is. I mean, it depends what you find. Like I know plenty of people sort of like I've got clients, I've got a business, I've got partners, I've got all this stuff.

And I mean, it's levels of difficulty, I suppose. And if you really, really, really were desperate to do it, I'm sure you'd find a way. Right. I'm not desperate to do it. Right. So I'm just saying it's partly mind-set. Having said that, yeah, I mean, I guess it was a privilege thing to do on the one hand, on the other hand, I walked away from a lot. No, it's a pretty good pushback. Not the walking away from a lot, although that's not nothing, but you have to be pretty privileged to walk away from a lot. It's more the first part of that argument that I think it's true if you go to Bali or any of these other meccas for seekers, you will find all sorts of people of varying means.

And I think Bali in particular, Elizabeth Gilbert wrote you pray love has become a big. It's it's partly that and it's partly Bali actually is a special magical place. I've been there and I agree it's incredible. I played with baby tigers there once. It's phenomenal place. No, no question. And it also has an unimpeachable spiritual pedigree for sure. So there's a lot a lot to recommend it. So your point is well taken. I'm glad you didn't just accept it and push back. I suspect there are some people out there who are really, really struggling economically who this will be far fetched for them or if they have little kids, especially with special needs. There are a lot of people who can't pull this off, but the larger point that actually, if you take

a hard look at your life, many people, including many people who would have met, who would otherwise, or sort of reflexively reject the idea of being able to do something like this, they actually can. I think so. I also think that, you know, one question I get asked, not get asked, was asked once, that was really interesting. Like, what recommendations you have for people who want to take sabbatical, but tank, can't think that one question I get asked, not get asked, was asked once, that was really interesting. What recommendations do you have for people who want to take sabbatical, but can't take

their, can't take the time or don't, can't afford it? And so regardless of that pushback, right? So I think the question comes back to mindful meditation, which is, how do you take a sabbatical in your mind? How do you take a sabbatical in your life without having to throw it all up in the air and see where the pieces land. And I think it is possible, and I think that it brings us back to a world of mindful meditation and how you're able to organize your mind so that your life becomes a sabbatical instead of having to escape for a little bit in order to discover something new.

I escaped to discover meditation, but I certainly could have discovered meditation before that. And I had the time and the inclination and take a sabbatical in your mind instead of having to physically leave. I do think that's possible. So I want to hear much more about your experiences with meditation, your family experiences in Bali, but just say more about what you just have, because I think it's a really interesting idea, make your life a sabbatical. Ha, ha.

So there's a moment in the book, where I go on a bicycle ride with friend of mine who's, I don't quite know how to describe him, he's been on his own journey, around all the stuff. And at some point I say casually, would you ever consider a sabbatical? He responds, you know, my life is a sabbatical, which one of the guys I work with was reading the book, he texts me in the middle of the night and sort of says, and all he says was, if

somebody told me life was sabbatical, I'd be really pissed off. So I guess it was kind of a little bit of a competitive you know, nudge, but you know, but it's an interesting it is an interesting thought actually. And you know, can you do it? Can you organize your life so that you're not carried away by the currents of whatever it is that carries your mind away into some place of stress and anxiety. And A, can you organize your life? Can you organize your day? Can you organize your family? Can you organize your time so that you have the time to, you know, center yourself and breathe and ground yourself. And a lot of a lot of the book is about, you know, finding your own holy ground. A lot of the book is about finding your own holy ground.

The title of the book comes from a poem by a poet named David White, I don't know if it builds himself, but I've heard him build this kind of like the corporate poet, because he speaks a lot about the condition of a lot of people in corporations. And he wrote a poem of people in corporations. And he wrote a poem called Fire in the Earth in which he invokes the image of Moses at the Burning Bush.

And it's about kind of Moses realizing that he has been on holy ground his entire life. And he reads his poem, he talks about how one day he reads his poem in a public setting and somebody comes over to him and says You know the Hebrew word for the that the Bible uses to for take off and as and take off his shoes The Hebrew word for that is the same word that the Bible uses for an animal shedding its skin Hmm, and I thought that was such a wonderful metaphor for what I was trying to accomplish? To in order to shed something old in order to emerge into something fresher, potentially stronger and better. And some combination

of the search for your own holy ground on the one hand, and through that, emerging into something that is greater than yourself, is something that you can do without having to leave. You're your current ground, but can you take your current ground and find your holy ground? And there was a lot that I didn't bother in terms of taking off your shoes, where you're either in a meditation cushion or a yoga mat and your barefoot, and you sense the ground that you're on, and you imagine yourself being on your own holy ground, and realizing the love that comes from that ground,

and the love that comes from finding your own center. And that to me was the magic of my sabbatical, and I think it's a magic that anybody can tap into without having to get on the narrow plan and travel for 24 hours. Right, it's about seeing your life in a different way. It's a perspective shift, not necessarily a geographical relocation.

Right, right. And but it requires that kind of witnessing that meditators strive for, right? Seeing yourself from the outside, watching your thoughts. Yes. It requires that shift. Yeah. I mean, another thing that could help.

I think there are a couple of ways mindfulness meditation helps a lot. Would be one avenue. I would say gratitude would be another, because I think a lot of us are ingrates. We don't. Us? You and me? Us too. But a lot of us, by which I'm referring to homo sapiens,

don't take stuff for granted. We're kind of wired for threat detection. We're not wired for the counting of blessings. I think training and compassion could be another way to sort of shift the way you see things. I think there are a lot of ways in here. Yes. Stay tuned, more of our conversation is on the way

after this. I often think when I go on a meditation retreat, it's like a plane that has lost its landing gear and hits a foamed runway. You know, it's just like a boom. I mean, it's not dangerous because there's foam there, but it's jarring. And so I think about your transition from CEO of a huge and hugely profitable company in as we've discussed, a incredibly...

It wasn't when I took it home. Yes, but it is now. I said the stock price this year or recently was... No, it's been extraordinary since then. But in this really exciting, growing industry, to go from being in the mailstrom in that way to what is on your itinerary every day in Bali? Just talk to me about that. Oh, so this is the topic of conversation that the kitchen tale before we left is like,

you know, with my wife, what are you, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? What am I, I mean, there's, when you're, when you're in that position, there's stimulation coming at you from all directions. And sometimes it's overwhelming, as we know. But it's a ton of stimulation. And you can imagine what that, you know, your brain is crackling all the time. And I have this notion of, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And, you know, I find that the time just fills up.

And I did, and I'm not, you know, despite my wanting to take sabbatical, I can't help it being kind of achievement oriented. In a way, the book is about kind of not being achievement oriented and just being instead of doing all the time, even if the irony of it is, of course, I had to turn it into a book and publish it and kind of do something with it. But when I got there, I didn't know what I was going to do, and I like to read, and I started reading, and I came across a book that was written 30 years ago By a woman named I'm forgetting her first name last name was Edwards and It was called drawing on the right side of the brain and

It was perfectly related to neuroplasticity which I was in meditation and neuroplasticity, which was what I was really interested in reading about And she had this notion of like, look, everybody can learn to draw. The trick is learning how to see. And the impediment to learning how to see, so we all think with our what side is it? On the left side of our brains, which is kind of words and numbers, and that's kind of how we're trained all day long. And somehow after kindergarten, we forget to think about our, the other side of the brain,

which thinks in terms of shapes and sizes and shadow and all of that. And she had a series of exercises where she figured out how to quiet down the left side of the brain in order for the right side to be coaxed out. I thought this is nonsense, but I'll try it because I had time. And my level of artistic skill was zero. I could maybe draw a stick figure. And so the first exercise I've had is like, well, here's a facaso's line drawing of Igor Strabinsky. So you can copy that on a piece of paper. So you take a pencil on a piece of paper

and you try to copy in a disaster. You can do it at all. So he goes, now what I want you to do is kind of turn the page upside down and draw it that way, draw it upside down. And if you can't even cover up pieces at a time, so you don't really see the nose and the eyes and the ears. And instead, you just focus on the line and the angle and what touches what and where. And so I did this exercise, and then I turned it right

side up again. I looked at it, and it was almost an exact replica. And it blew me away. And she went on these exercise after exercise, and I was really just curious, but always going on in my head, in my brain, and how this was possible, and then also curious about how it was possible for a man my age that I was learning a new skill like this. How old were you at the time? 47. Okay. And I'm about to turn 47.

Well, I have, I got the Christmas gift for you. And so I went about doing this and because of Bolly's word, I ended up joining an artist's group in Bolly and it'd be live models and I just go and I'd start it. And I went around and I, you know, if I had trouble, I'd go to Artisans, ask them questions, I just soaked up as much information as I could. Did you ever think when you were sitting there sketching, what if my board could see me now? No.

You didn't, you were able to shut that out. Well, what I didn't shut out was kind of like, how far can I take this kind of craziness? And the farther I took the craziness, the more joy I got from it. And because nobody back home would understand any of us. And I still to this day, I don't know why I wrote the book, but the book in many ways is trying to make sense of all of this for me. And one thing led to another, and I taught myself to be an artist.

And today I still do it. I went from pencil and paper to charcoal and graphite. And now it's oil painting. Really? And you and George W. Bush? Well, actually George W. Bush's stuff. He's much, I think he's a much more sympathetic human being. Now than he was back then when he was running the country

because of this. And he will say that art has changed his life. And I know exactly what he's talking about. more sympathetic human being than now than it was back then when he was running the country because of this. He will say that art has changed his life and I know exactly what he's talking about. He's really good for where he comes from. I feel this, for myself, it's totally changed my life. It's meditative in the way of, I can't pronounce this guy's name, but Michael... I think you're going to be able to do this longer. name, but Michael. Oh, I thought you were going to say make a ring. No, no, no, there's long kind of, I don't know what this Hungarian may be long.

Oh, it's a guy wrote the book focus. No, it's on flow flow. Sorry, yes. I was sorry, focus. I dare you to pronounce it. No, I know a lot of people who can, but I can't. It's something like, I want to say, shall I cash, Vili? Yes, yes, exactly.

But it's not that. So I read his stuff. She cashed my high's something like I want to say, shall I cash Veele? Yes, yes, exactly. But it's not that. So I read his stuff. Cheek cash from a high or something like that. No, the first one is right. I think so. No, I think actually, I think it's the second one. It's something like, chickish, it's something in there.

Anyway, the book is called Flow. I own it, but I have never read it. But he describes it. Kyle or something like that? Yeah, because his first name. And, but he describes what I experienced in terms of just shutting down the chatter of your mind, getting so involved in what you're doing that, that it shuts down all the chatter. And that it's more than that, right? I mean, it's almost,

I don't quite know how to describe it, but it's, but time falls away, space falls away. I mean, there's like nothing between you and the universe. And it's the most peaceful place to be. It's kind of, I guess, with people describing it as an Irvano, I'm sure it's not, but you're kind of in a different world. You're in a totally different world. Then I had never, ever experienced that before. That's really, it never experienced it before. I had never experienced it before. I had never been so involved in a totally different world that I'd never ever experience that before. That's really it never experienced before I'd never experienced flow before I'd never been so involved in a task like that

where Everything fell away and I was just alone in the world and And every now and then when I get there, so I kind of experienced that and but if my wife or one of my kids kind of Interrupted me at that one of those things. I found it so jarring I'm like, you know,arring. I was startled by it. I had no patience for it. So how much... That's what I did. So day-to-day I kind of did that. And Bali has a lot of artists and I'd visit other artists and I just turned myself into a total left brain kind of person as a break from being a right brain kind of person or the other way around.

But you were also meditating? I was meditating and I was doing yoga, which I, if you're, if you're doing it as exercise, it's not great, but if you're doing it with the breathing, I find it's meditative, meditation plus movement. Yeah, I agree with that. But you have to be, you have to be focused on the breath. And I describe a lot of situations. In fact, I took some inspiration from your book, too,

because I find one of the great things about your book is it's so hard to describe what's in your head when you're meditating. I think you did a really good job with it. Oh, thanks. And so I really try to describe sometimes what's in my head either doing yoga or meditating and one or two There one or two moments which are you know in my opinion really vulnerable and you sort of ask about like well Would anybody in New York understand any of this when you're in Bali doing this and I

You know, I just for whatever reason decided to expose it in the book So this just tell me about those vulnerable moments then. So there was one, well, I'll give you some vulnerability. I do protect people in the book and I can protect myself also a little bit, I guess. Yeah, too. I just, I remember once being just overcome by this wave of rage out of nowhere, right? I was just kind of

doing my thing, breathing, and it's like, wow, hit me like a tsunami. Yoga or meditation? It happened twice actually, once in yoga and once in meditation. And I was so curious about it, too, it's like this moment where you kind of feel the rage on the one hand, and these were like, wow, where'd that come from. And I didn't even understand the rage. I didn't, and what I decided to do at that moment was to experience it as fully as I could.

That's the move. And just take it all in and focus your attention on it and breathe in it. And you know eventually it kind of melts away as all emotions do, but it was so powerful and I don't know that I would have been able to experience that had I not been focused on meditation, yoga, and breathing and somehow it just so that those experiences come along. And then, and then generally, I just think, I feel like I walk around in the world with a much lighter touch.

I thought the title of your book was really good because it's not promising you bliss. 10% of your is kind of where you are. And I always say, compound, genuinely. Like you can get better at this. Oh, it's 10% compounded when I talk in finance language, you're talking to me. Yeah. This is your love language.

So, it has an amazing, it does have an amazing effect and it's a hard to explain to people. So you set off with this kind of pretty big grand goal of shedding your skin and seeing life as holy ground. Where are you now? What kind of impact? You spoke a little bit about it just a few sentences ago, but where are you now? How is your life different now that you're home and back in the mix? And what are you doing now? Well, I'm definitely back in the mix. And What are you doing now, et cetera, et cetera? Well, I'm definitely back in the mix. And I'm in the mix in a very different way. And I've maintained the three practices

that I developed in Bali, meditation, yoga, and painting. And those are kind of my centering activities and where I kind of discover holy ground. those are kind of my centering activities and where I kind of discover Holy Ground. So those activities help me pursue the kind of life that were everyday is a sabbatical. And then I also, I find that I, you know, I have this matrix move, right?

I kind of like, I can slow things down in my mind and I can sort of duck when I need to duck and respond to the world in a much more measured way than just reacting all the time. And anyways, what I'm doing now is I work for Tencent, which is basically two giant internet companies in China when it's Tencent, the other is Alibaba. And their Tencent is the other is Alibaba. And their Tencent is the world's largest video game company.

And I'm kind of their guy in the US. And so helping them, helping them build their business and developing partnerships and trying to figure out how to grow the business. And they're an amazing organization, amazing people, and I'm really, really enjoying it. And I was a little concerned when the book came out, it's like, okay, what am I, my new boss going to thank and all that?

And there was this one moment where like somebody said to me, I was at a business lunch, and there was a lot on the conversation, and somebody says to me, he goes, you know, then I had such a shock the other day. I was like, oh really why? Tell me about your shock and he said, well, I was reading my Kindle at night and I just turned it on and there was an ad for a book by a guy of this very same name that you have Anyway, so but you know the truth is they've they've all read it. They've passed it around and and they love it So that's great. It's not really happy. In fact, they've all read it, they've passed it around, and they love it. That's great. It's really happy.

In fact, they've asked me to teach yoga in China, which I think is a blast. So I'm kind of incorporating it all in there. I don't know, 10% happier. Maybe I got 12. I'm in New York, I have to beat the index. That's right. Of course. Do you think, because a lot of people fear when it comes to all the things that you've done, yoga, meditation, art is a sort of life enhancement, skipping the world for a year, all of those.

People look at those, especially in the hard charging professions, and think, will that erode my effectiveness? You're now back in the mix. Yeah. So this is an interesting case today. Are you better now than you were? Or, you know, or not, I think, I think it's a superpower. I think it's a tool that I bring to the table. But I know plenty of people who think that without kind of having to beat themselves up every day all day long, they wouldn't pursue their goals or they wouldn't be successful or anything like that. I don't, it's hard to know right.

I don't really know. I don't think I'm any less successful. I think in many ways I'm achieving more than I've ever achieved and doing it with a smile on my face instead of just tense all the time. So I don't think you lose your edge. I think it's some ways just getting older you lose your edge. Although I mentioned this to an executive, I had an executive coach when I was running take two.

And I shouldn't say running, leading. And I bumped into her recently. And I sort sort of mentioned her and I was like, well, and she'd read the book and she thought it was eye-opening and really enjoyed it. I said, you know, it's possible that all the, you know, the you curve happiness, like at the 50, you kind of, you know, everybody get people start getting happy. I was like, maybe all that's happened is I just got older. I think I've discovered something, maybe all that's happened is I'm just getting people start getting happier. I was like, maybe all this happens, I just got older. I think I've discovered something, maybe all this happens, I'm just getting older. And she looked at me and she goes, no, I coach a lot of people, trust me.

There are plenty of people after 50 that don't have any of the insight that you have into kind of what it means to live a good life. I think these things are multifactorial, right? I mean, that I always talk about my case. Yeah. I can only speak from my own personal experience, but in my case, it's like marriage, maturation, meditation, are the three things that would help me, would explain from my point of view why I'm significantly less of a jerk to myself and others than I

was in my 20s and 30s. So what are the three M's, marriage, meditation and maturation? Maturation. So getting older, I progress on the U curve and I got married well and I meditate and I think those three things are predominantly responsible but it's hard for me to pick one of them and say, it's only this.

I try to think of myself as not ever really being a jerk except to myself and if we count really being a jerk, except to myself. And if we count that being a jerk to myself, I'm, yes, I'm kinder to myself. I'm more optimistic than I've ever been. And I am much more sympathetic to other people's human conditions as opposed to constantly feeling like I'm in competition with everybody around me. I feel much more cooperative and compassionate people around me.

And I don't feel like I need to win every argument. I don't like somebody said sometimes like, you know, you can go on a community trip with them and he'd win. And I don't feel that way at all anymore. They were referring to you. Yeah. So, or at least you tried to win. I don't feel would one at all anymore. They were referring to you. Yeah. So, or at least you tried to win. I don't know if you would win, but you tried to win.

And I don't, and I run into people like that all the time. And in China too, I kind of, I've mentor some of the younger guys and gals, which I really enjoy doing. And I run into this baseline anxiety and this kind of whatever the opposite of awakened is- That alluded. Beluded or whatever it is. And I see it, I can see myself in that person.

And I wish I could impart some wisdom and I try to. And sometimes I say, can we talk about that voice inside your head? And they look at me and they say, what do you know what's going outside my head? I was like, please, because it goes inside everybody's head. And let's work on ways of quieting that. And it's also entirely possible that I've had my successes, and I'm happy with what I've got, and I'm not striving as much because I've had some success in my past.

And that's possible, and that's possible, that edge has come off, but I don't think so. I argue with my wife, in fact, just last night, pushing myself harder. And she's like, why are you pushing yourself so hard? That's in my nature. What can I tell you? I'm sensitive to something about your condition,

which is you have a meeting soon. So before we go, let's plug everything. Give us a, remind us of the name of the book. Where can we find you on social media? Anything you want listeners to tune into? You know, the odd thing, by the way, is that all throughout the publication and the writing of this book, it was always kind of beside the point, you know, in terms of like,

you know, why do I care about writing the book? Why do I care about publishing it? Why do I care about being successful? And I, you know, I can't quite help myself. So even the plugging of it is like, I don't know, buy the book, don't buy the book, doesn't really matter to me. But if you want it to buy the book, people have said it's a really good read and it's really quick read.

It's just over 200 pages and people say they fly through it because there's a lot of tension in the book or something or the writing's good or something. It's available wherever you can get a book. It's called Take Off Your Shoes author is Ben Federer. It's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and independent bookstores and I'm on Ben Federer author.com and that's also my Twitter handle and my Facebook handle. Awesome. Great job with this. Right.

Thank you. I think it was really pleasure talking to you. Likewise. Likewise. Okay, that does it for another edition of the 10% happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe. Rate us. Also, if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring

in. Hit me up on Twitter at Dan B. Harris. Importantly, I want to thank the people who produced this podcast, Lauren Efron, Josh Cohen, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other podcasts. You can check them out at ABCnewspodcasts.com.

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