Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 174: Loretta Hidalgo Whitesides, The New Right Stuff

Episode Date: February 13, 2019

Having dreamed of space since she was a little girl, Loretta Hidalgo Whitesides wants to use the power of space to shift our perspectives, connect us with each other and our home planet and become the kind of species we would be proud to send to the nearest star. She studied astrobiology at Stanford and Caltech, and has done research on plant life in the Canadian Arctic with NASA, dove to the bottom of the ocean with Titanic Director James Cameron and floated weightless hundreds of times as a Flight Director for Zero Gravity Corporation. She currently teaches leadership and development, as well as mindfulness, to the staff at Virgin Galactic. She believes space and mindfulness have the power to bring the world together in a way that will help expand our minds and grow as a species. The Plug Zone Website: http://lorettawhitesides.com/ Website: https://www.thenewrightstuff.com/ Twitter: @lorettahidalgo See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

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the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever weird on this podcast. We're talking space and the connection to perspective and happiness and meditation with our guest, Loretta, Edelgo White Sides.

That's coming up first, some lightning quick, light speed quick orders of business. The first order of business is that we've got two new meditations up on the 10% happier app. One of them is about stress and it's from the excellent new addition to our app, relatively new addition to our app, Diana Winston. The other is on patience and that's from Seven Aid Solace, who's a 10% happier app, veteran and one of our most popular teachers. So check those out.

The other item of business is that, and if you've listened in the last couple of weeks, you know this, the voicemails that we had been doing at the beginning of the show, they've now moved to the end of the show, so your voicemails are still here, but they're moved to a different spot, so that's coming up. Let's get straight to our guest, the aforementioned Loretta Idlego White Size. She has quite a CV. She is an astrobiologist. She teaches leadership and development as well as mindfulness to the staff at Virgin Galactic. She will explain

better than I can what Virgin Galactic is, but it's pretty damn interesting. And she began meditating. She's been out of her while. She started in high school and she's still at it and, in fact, teaching it. And she's going to talk a lot about the importance of teaching meditation to the folks working on space exploration because they're going to be creating a whole new culture in space and that mission we really want that for the future of our species to be successful. She talks a lot about her own personal practice, the HOV lane effect, the power of sitting in a group. She talks a lot about what space exploration driven now by private companies like Virgin,

Galactic is likely what it's likely to look like and feel like, and with all these people living and working in outer space in the, I think, not too distant future. And she talks about the concept of the new right stuff, the new right stuff, remember the movie, the right stuff about astronauts, the new right stuff. That's what the banner under which she teaches, which is a fascinating one, lots of lessons to learn for all of us. She really believes that space and mindfulness have the power to expand our minds and help us grow as a species, which sounds a little grandiose, but I think you're going to find

her arguments really compelling. I mentioned that she's got a really interesting CV, just a few other points on this. This is just a partial list of things she's done. She's researched plant life in the Canadian Arctic with NASA. She dove to the bottom of the ocean with the director of Titanic James Cameron for the iMAX film Aliens of the deep she's floated weightless hundreds of times as a flight director for the zero gravity corporation She's studied terraforming Mars with Dr. Chris McKay of NASA Ames she and her husband

George White sides who's the CEO of Virgin Galactic Plan to travel to space on Virgin Galactic's subordable orbital spaceship unity sometime this year. She and her husband live in the desert outside of Los Angeles with their two kids. And I think you can tell from all of the foregoing that she's incredibly cool and interesting. And now you'll be able to hear her for yourself. One quick note before I let her take over. We recorded this a couple of months ago, so there are a few outdated references for example, she talks about the anniversary of Apollo 8 and the first picture of Earth from the Moon. She says that it's coming up on Christmas Eve. That's a reference to the from the moon, she says that it's coming up on Christmas Eve. That's a reference to the Christmas Eve that has just passed.

So, I apologize for the dated reference, but I have nothing else to apologize for because this is an excellent episode. So, here we go. Loretta, Idlego White Sides. Thank you for doing this. My pleasure. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So I always start with the same question, which is how did you get into meditation? Well, I'm really lucky. I went to a really, I now realized was a very progressive Catholic school in northern California. And I remember in high school, you know, sister,

a Lillian, which is take us to the chapel. We move the chairs out of the way and lay down on the carpet and she would do guided meditations for us. And just thought that was normal. It's just what you do to connect with God or the cosmos. So she would infuse it with some religious content. I don't think so necessarily. It was more like a body check-in, like let your arms relax, you're filling up with sand, that kind of a thing. We did retreats, and you go to the Christian Brothers retreat center, and we spent three days connecting and talking with each other and about our fears, and what's in the way of our relationships.

It was just a really sacred, extraordinary, connected, authentic space. It wasn't until I got to college, I was like, oh, everybody else doesn't do that. Oh, okay. Where did you go to school? Stanford. So you stayed in Northern California. But the Stanford, I mean, I guess my parents met

and married at Stanford Med School. Oh, cool. Yes, they shared a cadaver. True story. Romantic. I know it's really romantic. They, they were, but my images of Stanford, I've never spent any time there, are pretty touchy-feely hippie-ish because my parents were hippies and this was the late 60s, but I don't know how, sorry, my parents were hippies and this was the late 60s.

Did I say that correctly? I don't know. Anyway, but but when you were there, it was a much more hard driving place. It wasn't so, you know, let's meditate and talk about our feelings. That's a good question. There's a little bit of it. The freshman orientation, everyone stands in line. If you're a parent, you're divorced, step forward, and you had that kind of thing, and we had great classes. If you're a parent, you're divorced, step forward.

If you've endured a trauma in your life step forward. Yeah, they're showing how many people are so vulnerable and to share it. It's feel like connection with other people in the class and just get to know people on a deeper level. But yeah, I mean, it's just it was just a in contrast to what where I had been it just seemed like a very secular environment and a very academic environment. I just didn't, wasn't used to that. So you, did you keep meditating when you left high school or did it lapse?

It lapsed a bit because, you know, there wasn't, I didn't have a structure around me. And I only now in later life, I appreciate like how much structure supports you. But when I got out of school, I went down to Houston, Johnson Space Center, because that's where you go, obviously, love space. And you knew it by this point that you loved space. Oh, since I was six years old, I've known that that was where I was going. She's pointing out. Oh, sorry, yeah, radio, sorry. Space, I was headed towards space.

But so I went to Houston, Mecca, Johnson Space Center, NASA's Johnson Space Center. And I got a repetitive strain injury from the old IBM's computers typing. And so I went to yoga there. And the yoga instructor was phenomenal. She's still, still like 25 years later, like all the yoga instructors I have. I was like, how do you know they, how do they rank up to Rayland? But she would do, you know, got in meditation at the end of every class and it was just lovely, like just, in Vienna, Chibasana and just like

relax or she'd have a set up and we'd had a mantra which was like, you know, breathing in, I call my body, breathing out, I smile, which I always thought was a nice, a beautiful way to just sit. A lot of Shavasana in my limited yoga experience is just, you know, live there. There's no real instruction. So I'm like thinking about lunch. It must have been like a meditation, you know, weekend meditation retreat or some extra thing I had done beyond just regular class.

But yeah, just so that was helpful to have her, you know, give us some other tools. And then I came back to it in later life, just on my own more recently than like taking on a practice. What's it look like the practice now? My, the intention is to sit every morning when I wake up, try to up a little before the kids so the house is a little cold to the kids Six and eight. Okay, you're in it. Mm-hmm So yeah, so part of it was like I need to learn I need to get my act together to be able to be present for my kids And not just like I hear you

I'm so sick again. I had a moment like that this morning. I was like yeah Yeah, every morning. Yeah. Well, I don't have a car and I don't have a six or an eight-year-old, but I have a three-year-old, and he just wasn't listening. And so I wanted to yell at him. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I didn't actually walk over, gotten his face, I said, I love you, but you have to do this thing. Wow. You wouldn't get in this roller. I did a lot. And I said, well, I'll put you in nicely, or you can get in yourself. And I put them down and you went over and got in.

I was surprised to work. I failed at that before. Yeah, totally. Like, okay, I choose not. I'm like, damn, I wish I was wishing to have a choice. I have no recourse. Yeah. Anyway, so you wanted to get your stuff together

before you. Referentials then. Yeah. And so where did you, when you were looking around for how to establish or practice, what did you, what resources did you go to? It's interesting. So I had, when I turned 40, I was participating

in an experimental circle group. I called it my Jedi Circle because I'm obviously Jedi. It was like 17 of us and we just made a commitment to meet once a month for a year and then do a whole weekend once a quarter. I just read books, or whatever personal development books, and share our lives and what we're working on. And a lot of people in that were, had a stronger practice. And so, what I did to start, so that was one of the things I wanted to share was just like how much I've learned about how important it is to have a community, a circle, a structure to support you.

Yeah, for a lot of people that actually makes the whole difference. I mean, it makes a huge difference. I keep cutting you off, I apologize, I do that a lot of people that actually makes the whole difference. I mean, it makes a huge difference. I keep cutting you off, I apologize, I do that a lot. But I just wanted to amplify your point, because it's an excellent point. And I haven't looked into sort of what allows people to establish in a biting practice. There are some people who don't really need a community, but there are some people for whom having that kind of social support is just like the ball game. And the coolest part about is when we would gather

Once a month we'd often start one of the people in the group happened to be a meditation teacher So you're you're on you know to start our day. Let's do five minutes and we would we would sit in in Community and it was just incredible how much faster and how much deeper you can go, just like with other people. Yeah, I call that the HOV lane effect. The HOV lane effect. I love it. Yeah, that's fantastic. So that was really cool. And what really helped us partnering with one of the people in the circle who had a strong practice. And he just became my accountability buddy, just like you would at the gym. And I would just text him every day, did 15 minutes, you know, did 20 minutes.

Missed today was a late night, or I got a deadline, or, ah! 15, 20 minutes is a good stretch. Yeah. It's a good number. Yeah, so that was where we were trying to hit. That was the goal. And so it just having somebody who cared,

somebody who was listening, somebody to impress. Yeah, you know, I mean, look though, yeah. I mean, you say that somewhat tongue and cheek, but it's good to have somebody to impress. So yeah, and somebody listening somebody cares. I mean, I think that's I always reference 12 step, although I don't know anything about 12 step But you know having a sponsor having somebody who's who's look who cares about your success I'm not an expert in 12 step either, but I think a lot of what they've done is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant Yeah, we should do some podcasts on 12 step actually I have somebody come I think coming on in the future who can talk about this

Anyway back to you. So what difference did it make? Oh well actually before I asked about that what kind what flavor of meditation? Are you doing? I? I don't know. I do eyes closed. I don't know all the names. I She Ray Lynn trained us this. I don't always I'm sorry putting putting your thumb to your third finger I don't always, sorry, putting your thumb to your third finger. I don't always do that, but when I want to be like super diligent or extra pure extra dude, like the full on, if I need like real help, I'll do the right way. Do you focus on the feeling of your breath coming in and going out and then you get distracted or do you go to a mantra? I really, I just think somebody asked me that recently,

so I'm thinking about it. I really don't do either. And I was like, oh, breath, I don't care the breath. And then actually, because I'm an astronaut, I was thinking about this, I'm like, no, the breath. Like they were like, no, the breath is really important. So I started thinking about it, maybe the breath, maybe I should be meditating on the breath. Maybe that's the right, maybe I should try that. What were you doing with your mind before that

if you weren't doing either of those things? Just to, I actually consider a meditation. So they say, you know know praying is talking to God Meditation is listening so for me the intention I always imagine being like a radio antenna And so for me the intention is to be still enough and quite enough because I'm so hyper kinetic and tabri that just be quite enough Still enough to actually be able to listen to what the universe is telling me And so it's almost like a Ideas come to me. I'm meditating, you're like,

oh, that's, I need, ah, I know. I actually had a great idea this morning, and then I was like, I'll just write it down and I forgot. That happens to me all the time. But I'm convinced though that if it doesn't last for you through the end of the meditation, if you actually can't recall it at that point,

it probably wasn't that great. And if it is really great, it will come back. Yeah. Having said that, I don't really know what I'm talking about. And I'm going to get to you in the spirit of not knowing what I'm talking about. I'm going to give you a piece of advice, which is, and you should take it in the spirit of like, I'm not a meditation teacher. So this is just, you know, take it or leave it and probably leave it. But my sense is that actually your practice would benefit from having an object. Like in other words, pick the breath, just feeling if you pick one spot like your chest, your belly or your nose, noticing what it feels like when the breath comes in and goes out or rise, fall of the belly. And then when you get distracted, start

again, I actually think that will tune the antenna. Hmm. Fantastic. I love it. So, again, take it or leave it. That's just my thought. Yeah, so I started thinking about the breath today when I was meditating this morning and what blew me away. You know, I'm a biologist. I'm a space explorer. So I started thinking like about the breath, it's oxygen. It's rocket fuel. It's literally rocket fuel.

That's what I fuel. That's what we fuel the rocket with, it's liquid oxygen. It's an oxidizer. It's what burns. And it's what burns the fuel, the food that we eat to make energy. And so I was just like, whoa, I'm like breathing rocket fuel. I mean, it just totally shifted. I'm like, oh, the breath, I thought, oh, the breath of some pedantic, oh, the breath,

this is power's life. This is cool. Well, it's, you know, I mean, you're adding a totally fascinating intellectual overlay, but you can actually strip away the concepts and just use the breath as a way to train focus. So it's like you're just giving the monkey in your mind something to do. It will then get distracted a million times, but over and over you bring the gentle, you gently bring the monkey back, and over time that kind of just has the net effect in my experience of lowering the level of useless chatter, which of course is the tuning of the antenna because when the useless chatter level comes down, you're receptive to more ideas, many of them creative,

or in my case, many of them ridiculously dumb. But nonetheless, they're new and different ideas than the habitual storylines you've been running since sentience. Anyway, that's my picture. That's cool. I want to talk about space, though. No, no, no, before you talk about space, has this practice made any difference for you as a parent? I don't know what's your metric of is it working and is it rising to that? That's a great question. Yes, I think that between sleeping eight hours a night, which is when I became a mom,

I'm like, oh, God, I actually need that now. Yeah, you do. Oh, okay. Between making sure, like I'm seeing too, that I'm getting sleep, that I need to do this job, and going about enough, thinking up early enough to do the meditation.

Yes, I see a market difference in just being able to just be calm and to connect and to come up with a creative response to the kids doing whatever the kids are doing instead of just like yeah thrown you know monkey response. Yeah, we all have it and sometimes some days you know you don't get enough sleep you don't get your practice in whatever the external circumstances are get enough sleep, you don't get your practice in, whatever, the external circumstances are tough for difficult or whatever, and sometimes you don't parent the way

you want to parent, at least in my experience. So what is your, tell us about what your job is, what would the, you talked about all the things going out in your life being parenting and also work, what is the work? So I Do our leadership training and development at Virgin Galactic for our staff Tell us about Virgin Galactic. So Virgin Galactic is Richard Branson's spaceship company So we're building a suborbital space vehicle that will take

People who buy tickets on a suborbital space trip where you get to go out to the curvature of the earth, the blackness of space, float around weightless, and look back at our home world. Is this like anywhere close to happening? Yeah, I think my goal is that we're in our test flight program right now with spaceship unity and that she gets to the space this year and Hopefully we get Richard hopefully we get Richard Branson to space this year or next year and And start flying customers. How much will it cost? It's $250,000 Also, so anybody can do it. Yeah, well, yeah. It's like VCRs.

They start out really expensive and now you can get one for $25. I think nobody has a VCR. Exactly. They give it a move away. They give it a move away. So you come down. So that makes sense to me. I mean, I would love to do that.

That sounds incredible. Yeah. And you're going to go. Yes. So we bought our tickets back in 2005. You actually bought tickets? Yeah. they're only 200,000 back then No dis no employee discount. Well, that was before we were starting to work with the company and who's we oh, sorry So my husband George White sides is the CEO of Virginia Galactic. So we bought the tickets in 2005

He started to work with them as a consultant because we both work in the space industry And they they knew trains and planes, but didn't have that expertise in spaceflight. So they started working with him. And then when they wanted to, you know, step up operations in the US, they said, when you come BRC, yo, so he's the running the show over there now. He's the CEO and you do leadership training. So what is that in tail? We have a spring semester and a fall semester and I have It's all voluntary. I have you know, we got to you got to choose to be there, you know be

part of it and take on your life and They do we do like two lunches a month and try to make it so the managers can't complain and We do it over four months. And we work on mindfulness. They have to take on a daily practice. But it can be whatever it is. Go for a walk, meditate, read, work on their motorcycle, study French. They come up with whatever they want. But it's that idea of that mindfulness, choosing having your life be a viewer design. We do, we work on listening. We watch clips from Star Wars movies and let Yoda use some of his wisdom to choose.

Are you a Star Wars geek? Yeah. This is your second Star Wars movie. Oh, yeah, sorry. I'm out. Totally a Star Wars geek. No, I love Star Wars. So you're in a safe place.

What did you think of the Han Solo movie? I haven't seen the Han Solo movie yet. I really liked it. I have to say that because I work Star Wars, so you're in a safe place. What did you think of the Han Solo movie? I haven't seen the Han Solo movie yet. I really liked it. I have to say that because I work for Disney, but I actually really did like it. No, my husband took the kids that we came out. I just didn't get to go with them. I'm gonna catch up soon.

And he said, he really liked it. So he said, yeah, he wants to go see it again with me, so I'm excited. So you play Star Wars Clips, which I imagine go over well with the folks who are working. Do or do not, there is no try. Do or do not, there is no try, that's a Yoda. How many people work for Virgin Galactic?

About 800. Oh, so this is a huge company. Well, huge, pretty big. It's bigger than ABC, for sure. The, I don't know, maybe I actually don't know what our head count is. So it must be a pretty exciting gig. Oh yeah. Oh, I love it.

I mean, I'm like, taking mud. This is what I always want to do is work in human space flight and be able to use like the powerful experience of seeing the Earth from space to help the world feel more connected and united and mindful. So I'm doing exactly where I want to be. So say more about that. Why? I understand the the fascination with space and I want to get into a little bit more about why wins that fascination for you, but the the the connectivity piece of it. Can you say more about that? Yeah, I've always felt that space is something that has the power to bring the world together.

And it was really important to me. I grew up during the Cold War, and there was always this rift and this divide. And I remember watching the movie 2010, and the sequel to 2001. And so now they want to go back out to Jupiter to find out what happened to Hal. Why did this mission go awry? And the only way to get there is to hitch a ride on the Russian vehicle. They really want to are ready to launch. And so we're sort of forced in the situation where the US and the time Soviet Union have to do a joint mission to Jupiter. And this is like 1984, this movie came out in 1983. I'm just like watching, you know, and when it comes to TV or whatever.

And I mean, a big impression on me, because they get out to Jupiter, tensions flare up on Earth. They radio to the ship and they say, hey, we're about to go to war on Earth with the Soviets. You guys have to go to other side of the ships, close the door and stop talking to each other. And they have this meeting on the bridge with the two commanders, the Soviet woman commander

and the American commander. And they're good friends. They've been traveling for months together in space, working as a team, and they're like, this doesn't make any sense to us. Just because the politicians are behaving like jerks doesn't mean that we have to too. And they keep working together to solve, you know, to do what they're doing. And what, how do you, is it scalable to get enough people up into space to get this view

to provoke the sense of unity that you're yearning for? I mean, can we get enough people up to space to have this, have a meaningful impact? I think so. We've had about 550 people go to space so far between all the governments that have sent astronauts, cosmonauts, takenats. And we've, a version of that, we've already sold, you know, over 700 tickets to fly on our spaceship. So we'll be doubling the number of people have gone

and we'll be expanding it out from just government astronauts to people from 58 different countries, you know, all different walks of life, all different languages, and they'll be able to come home to their communities and share this experience firsthand. And I think that's, you know, you only need to, you know, certain percentage of the population hit like a tipping point. And just even just spread that idea through movies and podcasts and films, and I it out there and that's that's my commitment is that we use this frontier to expand our mind and help us grow as a species and become who we've always wanted to be. How confident are you that will work because one experience of that kind of

literal transcending will it have an abiding effect on an individual? I mean, how confident are you that that would happen? Yeah, you know, it's not a silver bullet. You know, I worked in the astronaut office. I know that, you know, they're not all perfect. They come back from North and I'm like, wow, I'm going to be nice to my wife. And, you know, Buzz Aldrin came back from the moon. You know, he was, you know, he had to deal with his alcoholism for years and depression. And so it's not a silver bullet, but it's an opportunity.

And I want to make sure we are positioned to take as much advantage of that opportunity as we can and to do as much good with it as we can. Stay tuned more of our conversation is on the way after raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parents life. But come on. Some days parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting.

Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking, oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone.

So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world Listen to I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or Wondery app apply Aside from the the stuff we've just been talking about around human connectivity Why have you always been interested in space? the stuff we've just been talking about around human connectivity. Why have you always been interested in space? Well, I remember I started in Lincoln, I was five or six, so maybe it's for that childhood fascination, the frontier and what's possible in exploration.

There's always the, in every society, there's the explorers. People want to push the boundaries. And that's a useful role. But I think what really crystallized it once when I got to be about 12, you know, in those of the 80s, and we had acid rain and save the whales

and ozone hole and all these problems on my planet. And I was so worried about it. And you know, once a 12 year old, I was like, you know, this bird is heavy. Like, what am I going to do? How am I going to help my world? And I didn't know where to start, you know, which of these problems should I work on? And I made a decision that I wanted to work on space because I felt like if we go to space, we could sort of bootstrap our way up and

solve all our problems at once. You can learn how to live sustainably, recycle all our air and all our water because you have to in space. You don't have a choice. You can't just use things and throw them out. You have to figure out how to keep things close loop the way nature does. Nature doesn't throw anything away. So we need to learn to live like that.

And so I thought if we could learn to do that in space and now maybe that could help teach our world how to live in a way that works. Have you been to space yet? I haven't. But I could fly as soon as next year. So I'm super excited. And nervous at all?

Absolutely. I mean, that's normal. I mean, excited. And nervous at all? Absolutely. I mean, that's normal. I mean, you're doing something for the first time. You're doing something really risky. You're going three times as speed of sound. You're going really high. But I feel fortunate, because I had the opportunity to do an iMacs shoot with James Cameron.

And we were doing, we had these the submersible C-dive Titanic with, we were diving to the bottom of the ocean, like to simulate a space mission, to explore frontiers, and to me the ocean is much scarier than space. Like I find the ocean is terrifying, like that's like heavy, it's round, it's like weeks, it scares me. And so, and being out in the middle of the ocean, like three days from land, like it's a big planet, and I'd never been out of sight of land before. So being at C for a month, out of sight of land was powerful. And to be out of range of rescue, like no helicopters can get to us in the middle of the ocean. When we go down to the bottom, what was this? This is a iMac's movie called Aliens of the Deep

that I was in and when did you shoot it? We shoot it in 2003. Wow. I came out 2005 and so I did you end up in on the shoot. I was an astrobiologist at Caltech at the time of JPL and NASA's JPL and Los Angeles. Jet Propulsion Lab. Jet Propulsion. I know that. That's good. I'm sorry for the acronym. I just want to do that. And James Cameron came to JPL looking for astrobiologists because you wanted to bring together oceanographers and astrobiologists to take them out on a field expedition. And astrobiologists don't usually get to do field missions. You know, nobody's been to Mars yet, nobody's been to Europa yet.

And so he's like, wanted to get the opportunity to do this sort of extreme field work and learn from the oceanographers about life and extreme environments and film it. And the hydrothermal vents that are at the bottom that could be an analog to life forms that could be living on oceans, like ocean worlds like Europa.

And so we were doing this shoot and we were going down to Titanic Daps. I mean, this is like two miles underwater. So it's quite deep and there's no other, this is the deepest diving submersibles in the world. So if something were to happen to us at the bottom, there's no one to come get you. Is it claustrophobic? I wasn't that issue. I was claustrophobia. It's about three seats wide, three people, and this is a multitanic, two-meters-fear. Oh, I would freak out.

I freaked out about the thought that I'm, you know, we're off grid. Like, Americans aren't used to that. We have 9-1-1. We're always, someone's always can help us. And so, to take, to make a choice to be like, I'm gonna get in this submersible tomorrow morning, and I'm gonna go to the bottom of the ocean, was that was scary, and it was interesting to have it

not just be a theoretical, yeah, I'd go to Mars, but like, no, you're actually gonna do this tomorrow morning. And so I've had the luxury, the privilege of getting to already face that decision point. And with something that I considered scarier than going to space in a way, because I say that, you know, it's like a race car driver, a mountain climber, like, if I die, going to space or in space, like, I'm doing what I love, like, what I'm here to do, like, that's okay. I'm doing what I love, what I'm here to do. I guess okay, but you know, if you die in a car accident,

or it's like, that would be a tragedy for me, because I wouldn't have gotten to do what I came here to do. What was it like when you were down there? It's incredible. It's completely black, but luckily we have our Hollywood light package, which you turn off while you're descending to save power, and you just turn them on when you get to the bottom. So on descent, you know, there's like these But you turn off while you're descending to save power and you just turn them on when you get to the bottom.

So on descent, there's like these bioluminescent bacteria that glow in the ocean. And so if you let your eyes adjust to the dark around the portal, you can see they're like shooting stars going by the window of the semerce walls you're descending, except that they're blue, green and red. So that was really cool. But there's a portal you're looking at. It's not like it's a glass encased thing. except that they're blue, green, and red. So that was really cool. But there's a portal you're looking at. It's not like it's a glass encased thing.

I did both. For a thousand meters, we had a fully like fish bowl, submersible acrylic submersible, and that was really cool. Although you're in the fish bowl, but remember, it's completely black outside. So it doesn't really matter, because it's only where you're shining the light

that you're gonna even be able to see anything. Once you get down past 200 feet. So yeah, but for the deep dives, we had the titanium holes. And so then you just have this little portal. The pilot's got about a seven inch window and we have like about a five inch window. There's three windows. So everyone gets their own window. Windows seat. Yeah, and there's incredible creatures down there. There's these comb jellies that are like neon blinking lights. And I'm like, that's crazy. There's animals with neon blinking lights.

I thought I was crazy, but then I read about it in a science magazine. I was like, look at those real. And like a creature with like a mouth within a mouth within a mouth. You see all these things, you're like, oh, James Cameron just got all these ideas for these aliens from the deep ocean. And like everything you go and see Avatar, and he's got like the violinist jungle on Pandora, and like the plants that like pull into their sheath

when you touch them, exactly what the worms do. The six foot worms, the bottom of the Pacific. Whoa, six foot. I saw pictures in the book of the worms. Like, yeah, these are two worms at the bottom of the ocean. Oh, we're gonna go visit the two worms, yeah. Two worms, no. Two worms, yeah, these are two worms. It's about a new ocean. Oh, we're going to go visit the two worms. Yeah, two worms. No, two worms, six foot tall, two worms that are like fire-host thick.

Like, okay, that's not a worm I wanted to find. And they can survive under that much pressure. Yeah, they can. And if you touch them with the robotic arm, they have like a red feathery plume that is what's sort of filter feeding. And if you touch it, it'll like pull into its sheath, just like the Pandora jungle plants. That's cool. That's really cool. That's amazing. Exotic crazy. And the the the the hydrothermal vents themselves are

spewing out black smoke and 700 degrees. And like, don't get too close. Do you think in our lifetime, we'll be able to pay to go further than suborbital? Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, SpaceX is on the verge, and Blue Origin is not far behind. Those are your two, would you say those are virgins to main competitors? Well, they're working in a different product right now. So we're like Southwest doing here to San Francisco, here to Boston, here to Houston.

And they're doing the long haul flights, here to Sydney, here to Tokyo. The bigger rockets that are doing orbital flights and take you to a space station or let you stay for a couple of weeks. That's a SpaceX and Blue Origin are working towards. Lord, is that the Lord's Amazon? It's a Amazon. Amazon. So there's Seattle with Amazon and SpaceX is Los Angeles with Elon Musk and Tesla. So yeah, and you guys are no Cal Northern California. We're in Southern California. Also, we're in the hobby desert.

You are. Okay. Oh, that right. I read that you live in the desert So you think Will be able to go to like a space station. Yeah, that's my goal. I want to have an orbital retreat center Wouldn't that be so cool? Go and meditate and Well, looking down the earth that would be amazing. I mean, what's something on the moon? Take take the politicians, you know, what if you could do a summit, you know, on Ormett. That's a really interesting idea. What about the moon? Yeah, absolutely. The moon

is we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of Apollo 8. When we took that first picture of the Earth from the moon, which is so beautiful on Christmas Eve. So Earth rise. Earth rise. So Christmas Eve, you know, this year will be the 50th anniversary of that photo. We're looking forward to that. And then they Apollo 11, the moon landing, was July 20th, 69th, the next summer, it'll be the 50th. And so there's a lot of attention on the moon. Chinese already have missions launching some private companies in the US or launching missions. There's going to be a lot of attention on the moon. To do what? US are launching missions and there's gonna be a lot of attention on the moon to do what what are they one of the missions?

The Chinese put up a relay satellite just to start putting in your comm so you know you need to relay satellite so when you're on the far side of the moon you can still talk back to Earth Things like that and then they'll be doing a landing. I think people want to land a plant on the moon. It's like sort of symbolic, but beautiful Bring some life Bring the moon. It's like sort of symbolic but beautiful. Bring some life. Bring the moon to life. People want to go to the polls. At the poll of the moon, there are permanently shadowed craters where they think there's a lot of water ice. And we also will get more sunlight. So on the moon, you have 14 days of darkness and 14 days of light because of the lunar cycle. And then, so if you bet you, if you go to the, so it's tough, when you, if you don't bring a nuclear power source,

you know, you can't use solar power, you can't bring enough gasoline or hydrogen or whatever you want to use. So you, you know, if you want to have a sustainable force, it's good to go to the South Pole because then you can have your solar panels up and you have 24 hours of sunlight all the time. The sun's always shining at the South Pole. So the peaks of eternal light. So that's a, you know, people really want

Archeson going there. Do you think they're gonna like set up hotels on the moon? Is that what we're heading toward? Yeah. And why has it taken 50 years to get to this point? It's a great question. It's expensive.

That's one reason. Priorities, I mean, the reason we stopped the Apollo program in 72 was after we landed 12 humans on the moon, was Nixon was like, hey, I got Vietnam to fund. This is too expensive. I'm going to cut it. And so we stopped. We just stopped. And then we got into the Cold War, which was also pretty expensive. Yeah. Spendy, and then 9-11, et cetera, et cetera. But then George W. Bush's closing shot was, let's go to Mars. Yeah. Yeah.

But the way that they were doing it was big government programs. And so they were really expensive. It was like, you know, billions of dollars for going to be two missions a year. And, you know, accountability office was like, the numbers, this was looking like it's going to get two missions a year. And accountability office was like, the numbers, this was looking like it's gonna get pretty unsustainable, it was expensive. But luckily, what's exciting is, the same way Tesla brought in the electric cars,

which sort of changed the game, like made electric cars cool. Like, I gotta have a Model S, it's cool. And now everyone, a lot of manufacturers are trying to catch up and make electric cars. SpaceX has also game-changed spaceflight by making the rockets reusable. So now, if you watched the Falcon Heavy launch

that they just did, it was extraordinary. I mean, they've already been reusing their Falcon 9. So the rocket will take off, and instead of the boosters is dropping in the ocean, like they've done for 50 years, their booster came back and landed on the landing pad. So you don't think like Branson and Bezos, they look at, you know, a success that space expite have. And you don't think they're that burns for them or or do you think everybody's kind of rooting for each other because you're all in different necks of the woods. And this is a great reason to bring mindfulness to rooting for each other because you're all in different next to the woods?

This is a great reason to bring mindfulness to the space community because we do all share that same dream and that same passion and what if we could all root for each other and we could all work together and collaborate. I mean, it sounds like you're rooting for a space X. Completely. I mean, the his dream is our dream. But how would that go over among your 800 colleagues? I think a lot of them get it too.

And they see the valve, we want them to do what we want, or middle flights to be valuable, we want point to point. We want to build point to point ourselves. So that's within the business plan. You're starting with suborbital and you go from there. Yeah, I mean, so more like, you gotta be thinking about what you're next, where are you going next?

And that's what I think's exciting is, you know, can we get anywhere on the planet in less than an hour? Can we help bring the world together, like physically, too? Not just physically. How would that happen? Because you go suborbital and it's just a bit drastic. Yeah, so the space shuttle, when you're going, so you have to go mock 25 to orbit Earth, that's just physics.

If you're going less than 25 times the speed of sound, you're going to come back to Earth. So you have to outrun gravity. So you're going 25 times C's down. so that's how fast the shuttle goes or went. And it can go around the Earth in 90 minutes. That's how fast the space station or the shuttle or things in lower-thorough-butt orbit. And so, you know, you launch, you know, and that's all the way around. So if you only need to go halfway, you can get anywhere in the world and about an hour So I could go to Sydney or Hong Kong in an hour. Mm-hmm That's really interesting, but because air travel which would have been considered

Inutterably miraculous and 1850 has not made the world measurably more peaceful hasn't Maybe in some ways it has. I mean like now, you know, you have a lot more inner cultural made the world measurably more peaceful, hasn't? Maybe not. In some ways it has. I mean, like now, you have a lot more intercultural mixing. So you have a intercultural marriage. Okay, now I'm somebody from South Africa who's now marrying somebody from Canada.

And like they can fly back and forth and they could visit the family and go back for Christmas. And so because of that, you do see more cultural exchange and more tribal, more people visit and more business trips. And so you're like, no, no, I have a friend in India. I think it's helpful to understanding now that airplanes also been used as a weapon. That's right. So, I mean, that's one of the things I'm really mindful of, is like any powerful

new technology, whether it's artificial intelligence or, you know, spaceships, you know, that power can be used to, you know, create or destroy. But overall, it seems to me that what I'm hearing from you is that you hear a near future, a near to midterm future where we're, you know, if you want to pay, may not even be that much in a couple, in a decade or two, to go suborbital, you can do pay, may not be that much, and in a decade or two to go suborbital, you can do that, which is what would be like an afternoon. And then even we're having retreats on floating space stations,

or orbiting space stations, and go to the moon. And this all sounds based on what you're saying to be not that far away. Possibly our lifetime. Your and mine. That's my intention. That's what a lot of us are working towards. And what's beyond that?

People want to go to Mars. I mean, Musk is crystal clear that their goal is Mars. And you know, Bezos wants to get a million people living and working in space. Where does he see the being? He is usually a cis- we call it cis-looner, so anywhere around the moon, so like there's the range points, there's some gravitationally stable points,

you know, on either side of the moon and between us and the moon, where you could put a thing and it'll stay there. What does he want to do there? You build like a settlement, a city, where you grow your own food and recycle all your air and water and and can do manufacturing or you can mine asteroids. Mine astronauts. Okay. Yeah. So get titanium or

and what is the end, what is the vision then for your company? That's yeah, so we definitely understand and point to point transportation and what would the other point be? Oh, like so New York, New York City, point on earth, New York Sydney, you know, the hour around the earth and then, you know, sorry, Richard Branson's talked about things like, you know, hotels on orbit and I think you'd love to go to the moon if he could. It's really, it's so interesting. I mean, and just getting back to this issue of, will a global and a truly global perspective, and or maybe even a truly galactic perspective,

create more peaceable humans. I just, I remember I was moderating a panel once with, and I'd be interested to hear your answer to this question, your personal answer to this question. I was moderating a panel with a bunch of, I think astrophysicists, and we're talking about space. And at some point I asked, you know, thinking about space all the time, does that? Big blast perspective, you know, the kind of perspective that I get when I see the moon sometimes or when I'm just lying on my back with our son looking up at the sky.

Does that, you know, filter its way into your life in a way that makes you calmer or easier to live with? And all three of them said no. Oh, stop stating. But not true for you. No, no, to me, it's a very spiritual experience. And and I think like you can walk around the earth knowing you have some sort of background hum of understanding that like

this, these little dramas that I'm witnessing are playing out within this vast space, which then allows it all to seem to be seen with some perspective. Totally. My husband likes to say from low earth or but all your problems look small. I like that. Just get enough perspective. And like from enough distance, we all become one. It's like, what? You're from earth too? Awesome. That's my own planet. Love it!

You connect it. You feel kinship, you know, we're all in this together. Right. But stuck with a local perspective, that kind of tribalism, the kind of tribalism that you're worried about sets in. Yeah. And scarcity thinking instead of like, wow, an extraordinary university art. Well, that's the interesting thing about these three companies that we keep talking about and plus whatever the Chinese are doing

and anybody else is that it really does blow a huge, probably ineradicable hole in scarcity thinking in some ways, although maybe not ineradicable because in scarcity thinking in some ways. Although, maybe not ineradicable because, as we see in Star Wars, you'll find something else to fight about. I know it's heartbreaking to me, like the idea of Mars declaring more on Earth. It's like, oh, it's not what I'm doing at the start. Or even us fighting over who got the mining rights to which asteroid. Yes, and that's why I teach mindfulness

and leadership training and team development at the company, because I believe that almost like the culture, the people who are building the spaceships are going to be setting the culture of what we're taking with us. And we have to start holding ourselves to a higher bar. So interesting, because it's like a do-over. Mm-hmm. We have a blank slate up there.

And what do we want to bring? Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't ask you? Yeah. Well, we call it the new write stuff, like adding vulnerability and authenticity. So in the 50s, the write stuff was like just green and bear it in touch. Great movie. I movie or you see the right stuff. Yes. And you know how how stoic can you be? How much can you endure? And it's like a lone wolf too. I don't need any help. I got this. And so building on that tradition that we come from and that's and that co-achievements and like adding in a new layer on top of that of authenticity, vulnerability, full self-expression, being who you are, we call it bringing your all self to work in Virgin.

I call the new write stuff. It's like what we're going to need, what we need to be successful in the next phase of space. Well, we should call this podcast episode the new write stuff. I like that. And I really like it because it means more now having spoken to you than it would have meant if you talked to me about it. The beginning, I would have thought of it as initially as kind of an HR slogan, not in a bad way, but more like, really focused on the culture of your single corporation, but actually what you are talking about

is the culture of the future of humanity. That's the seed that's clear to me that you're trying to plant. Yep. Good luck. Yeah, I got nothing else to do with my time on it. My eyes will do something fun. I think it's worth the go, it's a worthy mission.

If people want to learn more about you, how can they do so? I, so I both a website, the newrightstuff.com, or lauratawhitesides.com. And you can read more about me there, get the book, the text book we use for our training, the newrightstuff. Yeah, her follow me on Twitter at laurata.edu. It's my maiden name, HID, ALGO. And I have, I've, I've got some TEDx talks to you, which are kind of fun if you want to

hear more about space and, and I take on it and how I got and interested in how I use it to help humanity. Do we search under your full name or just TEDx? Yeah, TEDx, Loretta White sides, pull up the the there's a tex nasa tex patsy no women and tex manhattan beach a lot of fun you made me think I appreciate it thank you really appreciate it thanks for doing this she did make me think loretta edalgo white sides really appreciate it time for your voice mouse here's number one hey then it's Megan calling all the way from Theory of Canada. My question for you is, what role do you think movement plays

in combination with meditation? I'm currently researching a program that includes yoga and mindfulness to help alleviate symptoms of PTSD. And I'm just curious, your take on the added element of movement in conjunction with sitting meditation. If you think there's an added benefit or an increased effect, sort of that mind-body connection, if you will, and would love to hear your thoughts. So thanks so much and all the best.

Lots of love from Canada, bye. Thank you, lots of love right back at you. I have a bunch of thoughts. This is by no means going to be a comprehensive exegesis on the benefit of movement in meditation, but just a few thoughts that are coming to mind. I don't do a ton of yoga, I've done a little bit of yoga, I have a bit of a complex relationship with yoga, but I'm all for it,

and in particular I find it really useful to stretch before I'm going to sit for extended period of time because I am so fidgety and restless and my body gets sore and cranky easily as I get older. So I think that's just one thing to say that I think it can be really helpful. I also think, and I was talking to Joseph Goldstein, my teacher about this recently, that walking meditation, especially for people who are super restless and really have trouble with this sitting with your eyes closed thing. Walking meditation by which I'm referring to formal walking meditation where you you know, stick out a you know patch of ground maybe five yards, ten yards and you just kind of paste back

and forth very slowly paying exquisite attention to the movement of your body. Often you can use little notes like lift, move, place, lifting your foot, moving your foot, placing it. That kind of meditation is just really useful on its own, especially for people who are restless, but it also helps, and here I'm quoting Joseph, to take your mindfulness out into the world, and so you know, you then have this kind of muscle memory, and mental slash muscle memory, so that when you're walking around and tempted to check your phone in between meetings while moving, which will give you ample opportunities to walk into other people or a poll that maybe actually you can use those moments to kind

of tune into whatever is going on right now, which can be a nice dose of mental hygiene in the middle of a day where you're just constantly toppling forward all the time. So those are two things that come to mind. I suspect without evidence that adding yoga in for folks with PTSD who may have trouble sitting with their eyes closed. I suspect that that's a really smart move, but I'd be very interested to see the data. So I think you're on to something. I wish I had something more comprehensive to say, except that, you know, I wrote for everybody who was listening to this, I think it makes sense if you've got a seated meditation practice or a daily-ish meditation practice to mix in some walking meditation because it's,

as I said, good on its own and also really good because you are taking it out into the world. It helps you take it out into the world. One more thing to say about that is a lot of people fall asleep when they're meditating. It's a very common problem happens to me. If you are super tired but want to get in a few minutes of meditation right before bed or right first thing in the morning

or in between meetings at work and you're worried that all you're gonna do is find yourself completely collapsed in the middle of the meditation, which happens to me all the time. Just doing a couple minutes of walking meditation can make a huge difference right there. We have guided walking meditations on the 10% happier app. So thank you, Megan, on to the next voicemail.

Many, Dan, this is Dan. I want to thank you, first of all, the podcast, the books, which brings me to my question, kind of a true part of it. First, when I start to meditate, I'll have these issues that I want to try to deal with or thinking through or come up with in me and I sometimes don't know which of the methods you start out like, well, welcome to the party or should just be a rain meditation or should I do something else or, you know, so I kind of feel like sometimes I spend my wheels and don't really know and jump from methodology to methodology

or meditation to meditation that I've listened to and learned. I've only been meditating for about five months. So that's one thing, and I guess I'll leave you my second question is, if I'm relying too much on guided meditation, at what point in the practice do you start self-guided meditation, where you're not listening to or not coached or you're just working through this on your own.

I don't think I'm there yet, but I'm just kind of curious to what your thoughts are on that. And then the first part of, you know, if you go through that too or you feel like, well, let me try loving kindness this now, maybe not. Let me try, you know, rain or something else. So I look at your thoughts on that and thank your games for everything that you do. Five months in the meditation, that's great. that you do. Five months into meditation, that's great. And so I guess what I would say is, you're only five months in.

I'm not saying this like I'm 50 years and 10 years and not even. But only five months in, which is a real achievement, it's completely natural that you're going to have, you know, go through all sorts of awkward stages of the practice. So I wouldn't get too tangled up in that. But on the specific issues you're raising, I think there are excellent questions ones that I've wrestled with personally. So let's start with the first one.

So your in meditation, something comes up that's difficult and you've been taught a bunch of techniques for dealing with difficult emotions and you're and then you're like, oh, which tool do I use here? Do I use loving kindness? Do I use rain? I'll explain what rain is in a second. Do I use welcome to the party? I'll explain that as well. What do I do? And then you're stuck in a classic Buddhist hindrance of doubt, not doubt in the positive sense, but doubt in the negative sense where you're just stuck in the quicksand of unconstructive

self-questioning, which often leads to even less constructive self-laceration. First thing to know is this is totally common, at least in my experience, happens all the time. Still happens to me a little bit of this. This is totally common, at least in my experience, happens all the time. Still happens to me a little bit of this. Let me just for the listeners, I said, almost said viewers, some say used to be on TV. For the listeners, let me just explain what some of these tools are that you're talking about, and then try to offer up a workable solution beyond just don't worry about it too much. One, you mentioned loving kindness.

Loving kindness, we've talked about this a bunch on the podcast. It's this practice where you send, you visualize beings, including yourself, and repeat phrases of friendliness like may you be happy, may you be healthy, etc., etc. My view on that is it's an incredible practice. In fact, most of my practice right now is loving kindness in the ancient Indian language of Pali. It's called meta practice M-E-T-T-A. That is my primary practice right now as I'm working on a book about kindness. I would say that my experience I usually I don't usually revert to loving kindness in the middle of a straight

up mindfulness sit where I'm just feeling the breath coming in and going out. I wouldn't usually just throw that in the middle of a sit. I either pick one and do one or the other at the beginning. So in terms of tools to go do if something's come up, I wouldn't rule out meta but it doesn't come to mind as the thing that I would revert to in the middle of a come up, I wouldn't rule out meta, but it doesn't come to mind as the thing that I would revert to in the middle of a straight up, the pass and a mindfulness sit. The other techniques you mentioned are rain and welcome to the party. So rain is, it's an acronym, recognize, it's the first step, when something comes up,

that's stuff, you just recognize, oh yeah, this is anger. Allow. Don't fight it. Just allow that this thing is here. Investigate. So how is it shown up in your body? What kind of thoughts is the emotion spinning off? What is anger really like? And then and non-identification. You can see that this is the mental state of anger, but is there any you in there? No, it's an impersonal and this is fascinating and this is going to sound a little grandiose, but liberating to see this isn't your anger, this is just anger. And you don't need to get wrapped up in identifying with it and tripling doubling and tripling down on it because it is you're so caught up in the story

You can just see oh, yeah, this this is anger That acronym I find to be incredible useful and so I would Recommend doing that of course your question is what do I do when I know a bunch of techniques for dealing with difficult things? So the other one you mentioned was welcome to the party. This is a technique developed by my friend and co-author, Jeff Warren, with whom I wrote a book called Meditation for Figuity Skeptics. And he talks about the fact that a lot of us sort of push away, and this is a component of rain, we push away the hard stuff that comes up for us. And that can, the struggle can, can, can, can my arrest even more deeply into the briar

patch of that particular emotion if we're struggling with it. And so if we just actually salute it and say, hey, welcome to the party, it often dissipates. And so in some ways actually welcome to the party is a combination of meta and rain. So I would say for you, if you're sitting in meditation, something difficult comes up sadness or anger or restlessness, I think it's completely natural to have a moment of, okay, so which tool am I using here? I would go through, I would pick one and just spend a period of time where every time something difficult comes up, you're just going to use one of these. Try that. Try that for a little while. And if you're finding that actually, no, no, no, I really do need to be a little bit more bespoke

depending on the, on the, on whatever the mental state that's come to visit. Then you can switch back and forth among these various techniques, but you don't allow yourself to get too stuck in the self-laceration, self-legulation around being confused about which technique you're gonna choose. So give yourself a break, you're five months in, this practice is gonna feel awkward as a beginner, and it still can feel awkward for me as somebody who's probably at the beginning of the intermediate stage.

So I hope the foregoing made some sense. Your second question was about guided versus unguided meditations. I'm a big fan of guided meditations, but you have to take what I say with a grain of salt because I'm the co-founder of a meditation app that specializes in guided meditations. But I do think, and what I do in my own practice,

is do both. And so I think you can start to experiment five months in with just sitting without guided meditations and doing it on your own. And sometimes you'll want guided and sometimes you won't and I think that's a good mix. Guided meditation is not training wheels, it's not cheating, it's full on meditation. And it's incredible useful to have a really wise person in your ear guiding you through it. But there may be times when it's either impractical or suboptimal to do that. So you just do it on your own.

I think five months in, you can handle it. Thank you very much for that for those excellent questions. We really appreciate the questions. And as promised, we are going to be recruiting some actual experts to come in and answer the meditation teachers who we're gonna run these questions by record their answers and put them on the show. So that's coming up soon, Ish, I think. We're on it, I promise and I know this week, I say this every week, but really mean it, it's not, this is not just a perfunctory thing here. If you take a minute to subscribe to the show, or to rate us, or to tell a friend about us, in other words, posting about us on social media, it makes a difference.

It helps us in the rankings, it makes us a viable project, something I can defend to the bosses, etc. etc. So do all of that please. Also, if you want to suggest topics or people you think we should have on as guests, hit me up on Twitter. A lot of people do this and we actually do listen to this and we go about the process. Now we're even getting more systematic about vetting our guests, so those Twitter suggestions are really helpful. And I really want to thank the people who work incredibly hard to produce this podcast, Samuel Johns, Ryan Kessler, and the rest of the folks here at ABC who make this whole thing possible. We at ABC have a ton of other podcasts and you can check them out on ABCNewsPodcasts.com.

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