Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 178: Gretchen Rubin, Outer Order, Inner Calm

Episode Date: March 13, 2019

Gretchen Rubin describes herself as a writer who relentlessly explores human nature to understand how we can make our lives better. Through her bestselling books and her award-winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, she shares strategies that help people understand themselves and create a happier life. In this week's episode she sits down with Dan to discuss the connection between happiness and decluttering, which is also the topic of her latest book, "Outer Order, Inner Calm: Declutter and Organize to Make More Room for Happiness." Rubin provides insight on what clutter is doing to our minds, and how cleaning up can improve our outlook. The Plug Zone Website: https://gretchenrubin.com/ Social: @gretchenrubin See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It kind of blows my mind to consider the fact that we're up to nearly 600 episodes of this podcast, the 10% happier podcast. That's a lot of conversations. I like to think of it as a great compendium of, and I know this is a bit of a grandiose term, but wisdom. The only downside of having this vast library of audio is that it can be hard to know where to start. So we're launching a new feature here, playlists, just like you put together a playlist of your favorite songs.

Back in the day, we used to call those mix tapes. Just like you do that with music, you can do it with podcasts. So if you're looking for episodes about anxiety, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes. Or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist of all of our anxiety episodes, or if you're looking for how to sleep better, we've got a playlist for that. We've even put together a playlist of some of my personal favorite episodes. That was a hard list to make. Check out our playlists at 10%.com slash playlist. That's 10% all one word spelled out..com slash playlist singular.

Let us know what you think. We're always open to tweaking how we do things and maybe there's a playlist we haven't thought of. Hit me up on Twitter or submit a comment through the website. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, baby, this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts,

the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad, where the memes come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT I'm Dan Harris. I have followed from a distance deep decluttering trend. We've hit it in a few little ways on this show throughout the years, but I never really thought I would dedicate a whole episode to the issue of decluttering because I thought maybe it

wasn't fully germane. But then I found out that my friend and somebody I really admire, Gretchen Rubin, who's a writer on all things, happiness and human nature, and a very smart and very serious person. I found out that she had written a whole book about decluttering, it's called Outer Order Inner Calm. And I thought, okay, maybe we ought to take this more seriously. So I brought her in to talk about it. And I walked away, really convinced that there's something here, that there is a connection between your environment and your mental well-being, and that there are actionable steps you can take that don't require major life surgery in order to bring some outdoor order that will produce, as Gretchen says, some inner calm.

So this conversation was fantastic, and as you'll hear, she's just crackling with intelligence and eagerness to help, and we cover all sorts of issues when it comes to decluttering her techniques, which go by in such names as the one-minute rule, the X-factor test, and things like that. We talk about the difference between her approach and that of Marie Kondo, who's got that massive decluttering bestseller. I think it's called the Life Changing Magic of tidying up, and also she has that big new show on Netflix, so we talk about the difference between Gretchen's approach and Marie's. We talk about procrasteclearing.

How you some people clean up as a way to procrastinate instead of doing what they need to do. We talk about the impact of having a clean desk on people who need to do creative work. We talk about how decluttering can reduce conflict in interpersonal relationships at the office and also Probably more importantly at home and we talk about ways you can hack your shopping so that decluttering doesn't have that that decluttering is less necessary Ultimately because she's so interesting. I also at the end virgin to into some We we veer off into some other topics, including mindless eating, which is a subject that G and I have explored before.

And we talk about happiness in the era of Trump. So lots of get to with Gretchen Ruben, and I look forward to bringing that to you. First, just a very, too very quick items of business. You want to tell you about a couple new things that are up on the 10% happier app. We've got a new meditation from Seven A. Celacii, one of our most popular teachers on beginning your day with gratitude. Let me just say on behalf of gratitude,

and I think I've said this in the podcast before a bit of bears repeating, it's one of those concepts that can be presented in a rather treacle-enoying way, but in fact, there's a lot of science to suggest that gratitude has profound impacts on the mind. So I'm looking forward to hearing and using seven A's meditation on that.

It's called Begin with Gratitude. And then another new meditation from one of my favorites, my good friend, Jay Michael Send. It's called Rest Your Mind and it's designed for people like me who are striving, over-efforting, pushing too hard in their meditation, and this is a meditation designed to help you kind of chill out and assure you that you're doing it right. Don't worry about winning at meditation.

Just something I need to hear over and over again. So check those out on the 10% happier app. Back now to Gretchen, just a little bit on her bio. I'm gonna read you the first line of her official bio. Gretchen Rubin is one of today's most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature. She's known for her ability to distill and convey complex ideas with humor and clarity in a way that is accessible to a wide audience.

And she certainly has reached a wide audience. She's had several huge bestsellers. The first one that really put her on the map was called the Happiness Project, number one New York Times bestseller. I think it's about two years on the list. And then she wrote some books about habit change, which are utterly fascinating.

They're called, one is called Better Than Before. The other is called, The Four Tendencies. I've had her on the show before. This is the her third time on the show. So if you want to go back and listen to her talk about the Happiness Project, that's episode 15. And then if you want to listen to her talk about Habit Formation, that's episode 99. Interestingly, Gretchen does not meditate.

She's kind of dabbled with it. We don't really get in, in past episodes, we talk about her various misadventures with meditation. We don't get into it when this one, but you're not going to hear just listen or alert much about meditation here, but you're going to hear from somebody who knows a ton about mental well-being and ways to train the mind that are beyond the cushion. So I highly recommend this one. Here we go. Here's Gretchen. Great to see you again. Oh, so happy to be talking to you again. Very rare that we bring somebody on as many times as you've been on, but you, I mean, I have no

second thoughts about it. I'm really happy to have you back. Well, thank you. I feel like we could talk all day. So I really appreciate the chance to come back. Congratulations on your to book. Thank you. I'm just curious, is it, or you at all hesitant to be putting out a book about decluttering in the era of condo? Oh, Marie, kind of. Well, I love Marie condo. I'm one of her number one fans.

Like I binge watch the show in two days. And I only recommend three books at the end of Outer Order In Reconnaissance. And hers is one of them. But the thing about Marie condo is that she really has one way, the con Marie way. And it's a way that is super successful for a lot of people, obviously.

But it doesn't work for everyone. And I think sometimes people feel bad about themselves or they feel like they failed if they can't do something the right way or the best way, or they never get started because they're like, I just can't handle the thought of taking at every, you know, every coat that I own and putting in a big pile. And my view is that there's a lot of ways that people can succeed. There's a lot of different ways that we can achieve our aims.

And so what I try to do in my book is to say, you can do it this way or that way. You could try this or you could try that. And so that people can pick and choose the things that strike a chord with them, rather than saying, I'm going to tell you the best way. Now some people do want to be told how to do it and to follow instructions, but then I think for some people that just doesn't work as well. Like for one thing, one of Marie Kondo's things is you should empty out your bag every day.

Now that just doesn't make sense for me. I just, that just isn't a good use of my time or energy, but she really, really fervently recommends it as a practice. I'm sure for some people it's great, and I'm like, you could do that or maybe not. You know, so it's a little bit more picking shoes. Let me just have a second, because I wanna dive into your way,

in a second, or your sort of flexible way. But why, what is the, you're an expert, you've written about happiness. Why, what is the, you're an expert, you've written about happiness. Why, what is the connection between decluttering and being happy? Well, see, this is so interesting. Okay, because 10 years ago, I wrote the Happiness Project. And ever since then, I've been... Great book.

Thank you. I've been writing and researching and talking to people about happiness, good habits, human nature. And what I noticed was that I'd be talking about things like eating right or making time for yourself or reconnecting with the people that you love or all kinds of things to make you happier and have good habits.

And people would be very interested and very engaged, but then whenever issues related to outer order came up, people got very energized. Like it was clear there was like an extra emotional charge around these issues, and that just really puzzled me. Like when I would speak to a group and I would talk about making your bed, people would laugh, they would sort of talk amongst themselves. I could feel that there was something special going on in this area. And that just, it surprised me because I think we can all agree that in the context of a happy life,

a crowded co-closet is trivial. So I wanted to understand why that was because I felt it myself in my own life. Why was that feeling there? And then also given that we do feel this extra energy around outer order, how can we create it and then maintain it? Because it does seem like it matters more really than it ought to matter. It really does matter. What why is that? Why do you think it matters more really than it ought to matter. It really does matter. But why is that?

Why do you think it matters so much? Well, part of it is I think life is easier. You can find things, you can put things away, you don't buy duplicates, you have less conflict with other people, you have more space. A lot of times clearing clutter eliminates bad feelings because we have a lot of feelings tied up in our objects. So like maybe I feel guilty

because I shouldn't have spent so many money on this pair of pants that I never wore. If I give away those pair of pants, the bad feeling goes away. Or maybe this is an unfinished project. Okay, I thought I was going to do this origami, but I'm not, it just sits here, makes me feel bad. Or maybe there's a fantasy self that I've bought things. Oh, I bought a guitar and a music stand and some music, because I'm totally going to

learn how to play the guitar. But I'm not, that's a fantasy self. I'm not gonna learn to play the guitar. So getting it. As it sits there, it makes you feel guilty. As it sits there, yeah, it's this kind of unfinished business. And if we get rid of those things, give them the way, donate them, recycle them, toss them, then we get them off our shelves and off our conscience.

We're not surrounded by ghosts. Exactly, ghosts are the past. Oh, remember when we use this big plastic slide, well, we don't anymore. We get them off our shelves and off our conscience. We're not surrounded by ghosts. Exactly. Ghosts are the past. Oh, remember when we use this big plastic slide? Well, we don't anymore. So why is it still here? Or the fantasy self? Yeah.

So there's a lot of bad feeling I can go away. There is, we also, when we clear clutter, we get more energized with the things that we have. And that feels good. It's like, I know exactly what I have. I can use everything I have. There's a very surprising thing that, because my sister calls me a happiness bully, and I do constantly try to force myself on my friends to help them clear clutter, because I love

to help. But I love, I mean, you've never talked to me about decluttering, but you've given me ideas all the time. And often, I didn't solicit the ideas, but I really like that. It's one of the things I like you about. So if that's bullying, you're happy to be bullied. Okay, good.

I'm happy in this nudge. Yes. But that looks more useful than that. Yeah, no, well, it's good. I mean, and here it is with my friends. One thing that I've noticed, and I've experienced this myself, and it's very kind of paradoxical, is I'll be with a friend.

We'll be clearing out a closet, we'll take away two giant bags to give away. You actually do this like you'll be able to. Oh, anytime, I will come over to your house tomorrow. Like this is my favorite thing to do. I'm like, please let me come over. And, but people, so we'll take all this stuff out of their closet and they'll look at their closet

and they'll say, wow, I feel like I have so much more to wear because they're energized, because those things, they know what they have, they want what they have. It fits, it works. You can get rid of all this stuff that's just sort of clogging your vision and slowing you down. Then you feel more engaged with what you have

and that's a really good feeling. Like if you get rid of all this stuff in your kitchen that you never use, then you're like, oh, I have so much stuff to cook with. Because you don't see, I literally found two garlic presses in our kitchen that we never, ever use. Not even just one garlic press that we never use,

two garlic presses that we never use. This was like two weeks ago. And it's like, get rid of it, and then I can find the can opener, which I actually use. And then also, we do project our identity into our environments with our possessions. You know, possessions remind us of the people and places and activities that we love. And when we look into our surroundings and we like what we see, it just makes us feel

better about ourselves because we're shaping our surroundings as part of who we are. I think all that resonates with me, for sure. I never read Marie Kondo's book, because I'm not deeply attuned to the whole decluttering phenomenon for better or worse. What I do know, I think, is that her standard is you shouldn't keep anything that doesn't spark joy. Yes, that's what you agree with that. Well, I think Spark Joy can be a very useful test.

For many people, it is the best test. For me, I found, and I think this works for a lot of people, a test is, do I love it? Do I use it or do I need it? If I don't love it, use it or need it. I probably don't want to keep it. Do I love it? Sometimes we have something that we just love. I have these vintage paper hats that are just gorgeous.

I don't know what to do with them, but I love them. And I think I have enough room for that. And then there's the things you use. And I don't have a particular joyful or not joyful reaction to this pair of scissors. But it does its little job well. So here they are on the desk for and I use them. And then every once in a while there's stuff that you need. You don't use it often, but from time to time, maybe you do need long underwear,

or you do need a tuxedo, or you do need something that you don't use often, but when you need it, you need it. And you wanna keep those things within reason. You don't wanna have something for any possible eventuality. But do I need it, use it or love it often, that lets you let go of things like the bread maker that you use once in five years,

or the pair of shoes that's so uncomfortable that you realistically just never find the occasion to put them on. You don't use them, you don't need them, you don't love them, they can go. All right, so that's one of your precepts. Take us further into the book. What are the other things you recommend?

And how do you go about making recommendations without a strict dogmatic rigid approach. Well, so what I did is, so the book, the book isn't, it's like, it's a 150 ideas and they're written in these kind of short, accessible ways. So you can always just flip through it. You don't have to read it from beginning to end. I do have like short essays introducing each section where I kind of lay out a framework, but a lot of people just pick and choose and what has been really exciting for me, because what I wanted the book to be was like a psych up book. Everyone's still on your read of book and you're like, oh my gosh, I don't even want to finish this book. I just want to get going right now. And I was like, I just want

people to flip through it, get a few ideas like, I'm going to follow the one minute rule or I'm, you know, I'm gonna use the X vector test or, and then get going. And I was very encouraged because after I recorded the audio book, after I did, I finished the recording, my director emailed me the next day with a before and after picture of the office because after I left, she's so fired up, she spent the rest of the day cleaning out her office. And so that's what I want. It's just a bunch of ideas, because a lot of times people, they want to get going. They just need some kind of framework,

or some kind of idea like, and there's ones that are funny, or ones that just try to help you frame it in a way that makes it better for you, that makes it feel more attainable. So here's one interesting thing, is that sometimes people think, well, I should get rid of everything, but I don't want to.

I should have a capsule wardrobe, but I like clothes. My boss tells me that a cluttered desk is a cluttered mind, but I like having a lot of stuff out of my desk. And they feel like, well, there's something wrong with me. I should be minimal. It's like, no, some people are simplicity lovers, some people are abundance lovers, some people like having a lot of things around. They like profusion and choices. Some people, you know, if you're the kind of person where, yes, there's paper all over my desk, but I can put my hands on exactly what I need in one second. I don't spend any time looking for something that's misplaced.

I like that. It's like, that's great. That works for you. You don't have to change because it works for you. But it might not work for someone else. But nobody's right, nobody's wrong. But how do we understand ourselves better and understand other people better too? And then I try to throw out ideas that might solve conflicts. For

instance, a big thing that comes up and maybe you've experienced this because you work in an office, it's sometimes there's clutter in an office because it's not clear who who belongs to. So no one feels like they have the authority to like, oh, there's this dusty glass vase left over from when somebody got Valentine's flowers two years ago, but nobody's like, feels like, well, I can't be the one to go move that base. That's not mine. I don't have, I shouldn't do that. Or like, there's a pile of files in the corner.

And it's like, well, maybe they're trash, but maybe they're important. Well, the person who's, the file's belonging to, left the office a year ago, but nobody's figured that out. And so I say, like, maybe you need a chief clutter officer. Like somebody who just goes around the office and has the authority to say, this doesn't belong here, who's this?

You've got to deal with this. Like, because otherwise it just sits around because it's not anybody's problem and it's no one's, and no one wants to trample on someone else's stuff. You know what's funny? We at, I hadn't really crystallized this until recently, but at nightline, we got a new

executive producer within the last year, Steve. And Steve has a really nice aesthetic sense. And he kind of changed things up in terms of the way certain areas were populated, but move furniture around, you know, made some gathering spaces, he upgraded the furniture in very simple ways. Very kind of nothing to elaborate, maybe a little piece of artwork here, etc. And I found that just the experience is different. Yes. It's nice.

It is because our surroundings do matter. And it does, if you feel like you can move through the office without your eye being caught on a lot of visual noise, it's just easier and nicer and better. And then you can find things more easily, you can put things away more easily. I think a little bit of effort can really reap a lot of rewards. So you mentioned some things I want to follow up on, the one minute rule. Okay, this is a great rule. So a lot of people say, I don't have any time,

energy or money to spend on clutter clearing. Like I can't spend a day, I can't go to the container store or whatever. The one minute rule is something that you can do just in the ordinary course of your day. Anything that you can do in less than a minute do without delay. If you can hang up your coat,

if you can print out a document and stick it in the right file folder, just do it without delay. This sounds very insignificant, but over and over people have said that this totally transformed their environment because it just gets rid of that scum of stuff on the surface of life, but it doesn't feel difficult. Like you don't feel like you're asking yourself to go very far out of your way. But little by little, it's surprising how much

more orderly things are in a really pleasing way and in a way that doesn't drain you. What's the X factor? Something you say, X factor. The X factor test. The X factor test, okay. So, you know how sometimes you're trying to make up your mind whether to keep something

or get rid of it. So, say to use the X factor, which is, if I were wearing this on the street and I ran into my X, my X-wife from Mexico, a friend, how I feel. The X factor, which is if I were wearing this on the street and I ran into my X, my wife from X girlfriend, how I feel. Well, the funny thing is I was on the subway and I just yesterday and I heard this woman saying, oh, I ran into my X on the street and I like, I didn't know what to do. And of course, I was wearing like my ugliest outfit.

You know what I mean? I mean, this is the thing. But I just say like, what I want to be wearing this because you're like, oh no, gosh, would I be wearing that? And it's like, okay, like, what I want to be wearing this, because you're like, oh no, gosh, would I be wearing that? And it's like, okay, probably you don't want to, you want to get rid of that. Just having this random memory of like 10 years ago, having lunch with you.

Yes. And that's girlfriend came over, gave me a hug and we had a nice little conversation and seen her well. And you knew right, somehow you knew right away, that's your ex girlfriend. Yes, yes, yes. Now, now I remember that vividly.

Yes, and you look, I'm sure you were very snappily dressed and you were probably very glad that you had no, yeah. And another, another fun test is the three strikes you're out. Because of the endowment effect, we tend to overvalue the things that we have. Just the endowment effect. The endowment effect, we endow things with special more meaning just because we own them, more value. So like, let's say you went to a bank and they were giving away promotional mugs. You would be like, eh, do I want a mug? Do I not want a mug? I don't know.

So you take it. But once it's yours, you value it more than you would if you didn't own it. And that means that there's sort of a default to keeping things. But if three times it's occurred to you that maybe you don't want something, that maybe you could donate it or give it away or throw it away or recycle it. It's time. Like on the third time, you're like, okay, we're done here, no more debating.

If you walk by a sweater and you're like, maybe I'll wear that sweater, but I don't know. And then you're like, do I like that sweater anymore? I can wear that sweater. And then the third time, you're like, I don't know, what is it about that sweater? It's like done, three times, it's out.

You don't want that because you've overcome the endowment effect in your mind, it's clear. This thing should go. So I've got a rack in my closet. I got the terrible closet in our apartment because of course Bianca gets the nice one in the dump. And so I have this awkward, terrible closet. And there's a rack of shirts

and towards the back of the rack of the shirts because it's hard to access the back. Yes, because it doesn't go all the way. There's all the shirts that they don't wear that much. Get rid of them. Yes. Oh, you'll feel so good. Because also, since you have kind of an awkward closet, you'll feel so much better about

that awkward closet if all that other stuff goes away. And here's something also in this yourself. You've got five pairs of khaki pants. At what point do you wear the fifth favorite pair? You know, there's only like, unless the things are truly distinctive, it's like how many shirts do you have that you actually like? Are you gonna wear like your fifth most unfavorite shirt?

No. You know, maybe keep one because you're gonna do something where you're gonna be eating a hotdog with ketchup and mustard and you think, okay, maybe I'm just going to explode everywhere. But probably you don't even need that. Do that shirtless. Yeah, just check. Take it down.

But here's what I predict. If you get rid of those shirts, you will feel so good. Your closet experience will be much better. And you will feel like you have more to wear. So let me, you said before that there are these little things we can do because the overall project can feel daunting. Yes. That I think is a thing for me that I'm so busy, I would say the biggest problem in my

life is not having enough time. Yes. To, you know, I would do this with my wife because she loves this stuff. So if I asked her to do it, she'd be delighted. Yeah. But it just felt it would feel like a big process. Which I'd probably end up enjoying, but I keep telling myself,

well, there's something else I should do now instead. But so here's what I would say, if, just you're exactly your situation, is you might say to your wife, like, can we take 10 minutes and just help me do, like, a speed round in my closet? And just have her say, this, this, this, this, this, because maybe you just need somebody to kind of hold you to it

and take you through it very, very briefly because you don't have time. And if she really likes it, she probably would be very willing to do that and it would help you get through. And if you did 10 minutes a day for a week, you would see a total transformation of your stuff. Yes, that's actually right. And so what I do with my husband, because he likes clutter clearing, but he never occurs to him to do it. So every once in a while,

I'll be like, I'm gonna go through your closet and I'll hold up two pairs of pants or two whatever's at a time. And just say yes now. And we get rid of things so quickly that way. And then one time I did it, and he said, I have never seen that pair of pants before in my life. I was like, I don't know what to tell you. Somebody snuck in and put them here.

But like, he didn't even know he had them. You know, and so it's just that speed round. Not, you know, just, and I get it, that you're so, so busy, the idea that you would take an afternoon, and like, let's go, let's reorganize the kitchen. You're like, that's just never, that's not going to happen for like 15 years, but you can get a lot, we tend to overestimate what we can do in a short time, like an afternoon,

and underestimate what we can do in a long term if we do a small amount consistently. So you know, 10 minutes a day, especially if you're working with somebody else who can kind of like help you speed through it, you can get a ton done. So what about with kids? Because I have a four year old, he's a maximalist, he wants every hat, you know, and transform all the setters here. How do we declutter with these little monsters? Yeah, well, you're in the season of stuff. I think it is helpful to just recognize there are seasons of stuff where there's, and little kids have a lot of stuff.

They have a lot of equipment, they have a lot of toys, they have a lot of things like giant plastic slides. By the way, he doesn't always spark joy for me. You know what, yes, like, okay, you gotta keep him anyway. One thing is some children aren't, don't object to getting rid of some things, like especially because children like to get older

and they don't necessarily wanna keep things that they associate with being little, you could maybe say, hey, would you like more room for your toys now? Let's go through these. Some children are like that. Some children wanna keep everything. But what you do see, and again, it's strange, over and over, when you take some toys away,

children tend to play more with the toys they have. It's like, again, it's the sense of engagement and accessibility. And I think some children, too, I feel bad for them because I talk to people who are complaining because their kids are messy and never put anything away. But I'm like, there's so much stuff here. It's like 100 stuffed animals in here. How could you put them away? You as the adult have to figure out

how to help them manage that. They just, every grandparent, every aunt, every uncle, every birthday party, there's just like so much. I can't deal with it. Well, one of the things we've been doing, which I've been happy to see that he has embraced is, you know, there are kids out there who don't have as many toys as we donate to them.

And he's psyched for that. Yes. No, I think children are, they really understand that they really get that. And as a parent, too, sometimes it's hard for parents to let go of things because anything that's been important to our children becomes important to us. And when you think about the fact that these toys can go and live with another child, it could help you let go. I remember we did a huge clutter clearing and we got rid of like a lot of

Fisher Price Farm type things, you know. And it was hard for me because I was like, they're so nice, they're such good quality. I have so many happy memories. A lot of these things were kind of like the toys I had as a child, so it was all tied up in that. But whatever, so we, and that can be sometimes hard to give away toys, not all thrift stores will take

to a store's toys, so you have to make sure that you know a place to give. But there's a women's shelter that took toys. And so my husband, my daughters, and I went over there and were unloading, and I mean over there and were unloading. And I mean, as soon as we brought a box out, there were mothers that were just coming running to grab the toys for their kids. And, you know, any sadness that I felt was totally redeemed by the thought that a child would be able to play with this fish or price barn and get

tremendous pleasure out of it, especially a child who maybe didn't have a lot of things. And so if you think about your possessions going out into the world and and serving, you know, living out their destiny more with somebody else who can really use them, it's just it's a lot easier. So that's the key thing. A key thing it seems to me with decluttering is no, you don't have to throw this stuff out. You give it away. Give it away. Yes. If you can, if you can find a recipient for it.

Yeah. And there's sort of stores. There's all kinds of things that you can do. And now, sometimes I think people get caught up too much in trying to find the perfect beneficiary. Like, the neighbor who has the child that's exactly the right size, or, you know, it's like you want to have a few places that you can give a lot to. You know like books in here in New York City they do a drive where once a year they collect

children's and picture books for New York City school libraries and this is just a wonderful thing and like every year we just like take over all the books that for one I read children's literature myself all the time so I read children's literature myself all the time. So I have a lot of books to give away. Good books, interesting books. And it's fantastic. So you sort of kind of need to keep your eye out for what are the organizations that can

take the things that you are giving? What's your view on minimalism? Because this seems to be a big trend right now. So I think minimalism is something that some people like and is helpful for some people. And I get it because I'm sort of on that end of things probably myself, but I don't think it's right for everyone. And so I don't think a capsule wardrobe is right for everyone. What's capsule wardrobe?

A capsule wardrobe is when you have 15 items and they're all kind of like black, white, and gray, or navy blue and cream. And it's like everything matches. And it's just this idea that you can get by with very few things. And that's actually easier. And then you can buy better quality. And for some people, that's fantastic. But minimalism, I think minimalism for its own sake, I just don't think that everybody wants to get there. And there are people who love collections, and they love beautiful things, and they want to be surrounded with beautiful things, and they like to buy them and talk about them and show them to other people, and they like a lot in their life. And it's interesting because people will sometimes say to me, like, well, what you consider

to be pleasingly minimal, kind of beautiful emptiness, to me looks sterile and stripped, and like a timeshare, like I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, it looks just so cold and so boring. And I'm like, that's right, because for you, you want to be in a different environment. So I think minimalism is great if that is what you want. I don't think that minimalism is necessarily something that everybody wants or should aim for.

What do you think though that, and maybe I'm lumping these together inappropriately and so correctly if I am, but seems like both minimalism and decluttering and there's overlap in the Venn diagram. They are really hot right now. And so what's going on in our culture that these ideas have taken hold? You know, I think that part of it is that the world feels very, very noisy and there's sort of like a lot of incoming information and ideas. There's a lot of uncertainty, things feel crowded and noisy and cacophonous.

And I think that as a result, people are very attracted to something that would mean that they would have more serenity and ease in their everyday life. Now again, you could be an abundance lover. An abundance lover doesn't want like a cord to nothing lying on the floor or plastic containers that have lids that don't match. That's not abundance. That's still clutter. So even if you want to end up with abundance, if you get rid of everything that's clogging the system.

But I think, so whoever you, whoever we're dealing with, I think this idea of like, I can't control the world, but I can control my surroundings. And can I bring more clarity and more ease and more spaciousness to my surroundings. I'm guessing now, but I think there are maybe two other contributing to that. Yes, what? One is, I think you already touched on, but I think it's the digital cacophony of our world that we feel so overwhelmed all the time.

Endless. Yes, this provides a sense of agency. And the other and this was hit upon quite strenuously in that movie minimalism, which was quite popular on Netflix. I only know that because I was actually randomly in it and will ask me about it all the time, even though I'm not a minimalist. Although I've become friends with the minimalist,

the guys who made it. I think another thing is there's especially among young people right now. A lot of serious questioning of capitalism and its excesses. Well, I think, I think, and related to that is demographics. I think when you're a young person, it's much easier to be minimal. When you're 45 years old, you have three kids, and you just inherited all the stuff from your mom, then you're kind of like, well, maybe I'm not in a minimalist mode. Like a lot of people are like, you just need a backpack and a tent and one copy of your

favorite book and you can strive freely through the world. I'm like, I don't think that's going to work forever, man. Come back to me in 20 years and see how you're doing. So I do think that part of it is also, as our demographics are changing, many people are getting into a situation where they've got stuff coming at them from the bottom and from the top and they're dealing with it. But yeah, I know I think the capitalist and absolutely the sharing culture, the idea, I don't need to own it.

I mean, I remember when people had huge collections of CDs and it was a major part of people's identity and how they projected themselves into the world. And when you met somebody, you would look at their CD collection just the way now you look at their book collection, which even that, you know, people, this idea that you need, there's all this stuff about how people, younger people, aren't buying diamond rings. They're not buying, they're renting their clothing instead of buying their clothing. So, yeah, you're right, they're not acquiring in the way that we're, have historically been accustomed to.

And that is, as a consequence of, in contributing to a different sense of clutter. And a sense also that the excesses of capitalism that we've been pushed around in our innate desires have been accentuated, hyper accentuated by marketing and advertising, etc. One click, one click purchase. Yes. Yeah. I think I think all that's a very, very good point. I think that's absolutely contributing to it. Yeah. And the thing that's just strange to me and I see I just have seen it over

and over and over. It just why is it that people just feel more calm and yet more energized, more focused, and more with like they have more sense of possibility when they just go through their stuff and get rid of those things that they don't need. Use their love. A friend of mine said, I finally cleaned out my fridge, and now I know I can switch careers.

I was like, I get it, you know? It seems like an utter non-sexuality. But you kind of know how that feels, right? I mean, sometimes, yeah, there is procrast declaring. So there's, there's helpful preparation. That's a term. Yeah, well, yeah, I procrast, procrast declaring. So helpful preparation is when you're like,

I cleaned out the fridge, now I can switch careers. So when you're like, you know, I need to start that anal report. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna take some time and I'm gonna get, you know, I'm just gonna clear through my desk and we get everything ready. And now I'm focused and ready. That is great.

Okay, so I feel, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But I feel like my wife's gonna kill me for saying this, but she's guilty of a little bit of this. So she's got a big project, but she can't get to it until she does every other little thing. Okay, that's Procrasta clearing. Procrasta clearing is when it's not that I'm just getting myself ready for something, but it's like,

you know what, these bookshelves have been this way for three years and it never bothered me before. But now that I'm ready, I have for something, but it's like, you know what, these bookshelves have been this way for three years and it never bothered me before, but now that I'm ready, I have to write the annual report. I feel like I cannot possibly start the annual report until these bookshelves are cleared out or like every inch of my apartment has to be spotless.

That's not helpful preparation. That is procrast declaring. And you always know if it's procrast declaring if the minute that the task is done, all desire to deal with the clutter vanishes. Like my sister who is very, very messy says, she only has for a cross declare. If she has any desire to clear clutter at all, it is only as a procrastination device. And so she's like, never do it. You know what I mean? It's only because she's trying to make excuses for herself. What for you as an individual, it's the hardest part in this cluttering situation.

Do you have an equation? Yes, I do, and it's closed. I use the floor robe, which is I just throw things on the floor, I have to say, and I have this little table and the edge of us, you know, some furniture. I don't like to wear real clothes. I try to wear yoga pants all the time. It's a great sign of my deference and my respect for you, Dan, that I'm actually wearing jeans here instead of yoga pants. And just sort of in the course of my day, because

I've sort of a weird schedule as a writer, that I just end up changing my clothes. Like, I'll have to dress for this and then dress for that and then dress for this and dress for that. And like, my husband is so good, he just puts his clothes away. The minute he changes clothes, he just puts his clothes away. And I've really gotten much better about that. But that is my challenge. But here's what I've learned about myself. Because again, my view is that you really have to tailor your habits and your approach to your particular challenges

and you're interesting, just kind of even the tempo of your day. And so what I realized is that I was trying to clear, do put these clothes away at the end of the day and I'm really a morning person. So the night is a time of very low energy for me, but I'm very high energy in the morning. And it's almost kind of like a restless energy at first.

Like I'm walking my dog, I'm making coffee. Like this sort of, I'm kind of burning that off. And so now when I have clothes, I will often do it first thing in the morning, which you think, well, you should go to bed with everything put away. And I'm like, but I find it much easier to do and much more pleasant to do as part of my morning. This is like, I'm getting ready for my day. So I'm going to put away all the clothes from yesterday that just works better with my personal energy cycle. What about you as a writer? I'm asking this. Let me just say upfront for some self-interest.

As a writer, I find that clearing clutter off my desk makes the writing process much easier. Yes, absolutely. No, and I'm one of these people where I'm just constantly writing down notes, and I have three, you know, and I'll have documents out that are like, I need to look at that and this is to remind me about this and I've got my running to do list. And for some reason I just take out pens one after another after another, I'll like end up with 15. Why can't use the same pen, I don't know. And so what I do is a 10 minute closer. At the end of every, every time I leave my desk, I try to take 10 minutes and just put away the pens and the pen cups, put the documents back where they belong.

Go through my to-do list and re-copy it if I've gotten a lot of things done, so I just have the things that are undone. And I do find that it makes it much easier to focus and also, like if I leave my office and come back, it makes it much more pleasant to re-enter. Because part of it is like getting back into chair. And if there's a lot of just junk in the way,

or like I will sometimes, because I like to post interesting articles in social media, all like, oh, here's a copy of a newspaper or a magazine page that I ripped out that I want to be like, oh, I should look up that study and link to it or something. Just take 10 minutes and be like, do this, do this, do this, do this, get rid of it all and move forward.

It's funny how a little bit of an investment in clearing clutter and creating order can then I feel like really energize you. I keep using the word energy because for me, the idea of outer order is really, really connected to energy. It really can get you that energy and that focus to sit down, tackle something like writing, which is very intellectually demanding. You really... The worst thing humans have ever invented. You talk before about how decluttering can improve or reduce conflict in your office. What about

or reduce conflict in the office. What about at home? Well, this is very interesting to me because it turns out that I'm more fortunate than I realized because my husband, as I mentioned, my husband Jamie and I are very well matched in terms of what level of order and disorder that we're comfortable with. And I didn't realize how rare that was. It's pretty unusual. It seems like with most couples, there's a pretty big gap between what person feels comfortable with and what the other person feels comfortable with. So it is a very common conflict. So one thing that you can do is you can make sure that each person has room of their own. Now

Virginia Woolf said everyone should have a room of their own. All right. That's your sister. That Virginia Woolf said this. Of Virginia will set everyone should have a room of their own, all right? That's your sister. Virginia will set this. Of Virginia will, right? Yeah, set what's your sister's name? Elizabeth Crowe. Elizabeth, yes.

Yes, the co-host with you of podcast. Of my podcast, yeah. So Virginia will have said, you know, writers should have a room of their own. And not everybody can have room of their own, especially like in New York City, but can you have like a desk or an area where you can have your things

the way you want them where nobody's going to borrow from you or put something there or clean it without your say so. I think for some people who are disorderly, as long as if they have a place to put their things, then they can be more orderly in the public areas of the shared spaces. So can you find a place for them to have their, if they wanna have an unfinished scrapbook out for a month, is there a place for them to do that where it's not like the kitchen table? Another thing is to really watch out for clutter magnets. And these are the areas in our house

where clutter just seems to accumulate. Like we have this place in our kitchen counter where this is just like the dump zone. And if you really are vigilant about every day, getting everything out of that clutter magnet, a lot of times you will stop that clutter from accumulating. Areas that are messy tend to get messier, and if people see there's a mess they will just contribute to it. And so if you have somebody who's you're trying to encourage to be neater, if you get rid of those clutter magnets a lot of times, it's easier for them to manage their stuff.

And then things don't get lost as much and all that. One thing that I love, if you ever traveled with a family, what thing that used to drive me crazy is people were constantly, whereas the sunglasses, where are the room keys, where is the map, Where is the sunscreen? So now whenever we travel, and I even do this by myself now, but mostly with the families, I create a bowl of requirement,

which is like the room of requirement in Harry Potter. And anything we have to keep track of, we keep in this bowl or on this tray. So the sunglasses, the AirPods, the wallets, it lose change, the room keys go there. And then this is important. If you see something in some random place where somebody just randomly put it on,

put it where it belongs in the bowl of requirement, because when people travel, they don't have their usual habits of where they keep things. So things tend to get misplaced much more because they don't have the place where they usually keep their keys because they're in a completely different environment. So that's a way to manage things

getting misplaced or lost in kind of the hub of a family vacation. Like that. More 10% happier after that. Hey, I'm Arisha and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wunderys Podcast, even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Ru goes out searching for love and acceptance. But the road to success

is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Ru off course. In our series Ruoo Paul born naked, we'll show you how Roo Paul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. under the app. Yeah. Right before we came into the studio to record this, we were on the set of weekend, good morning America, recording what we call weekend downloads of these 90 second segments that are.

They're fun. And we, they're like lightning rounds where I ask you a bunch of questions. I thought it would be worth going back into the questions I asked you on GMA here, because you would give you a little bit more time. So one of the things we talked about was an important thing in the fight against declutter is self-knowledge, knowing how you accumulate, how you buy, why you buy.

You just unpack that first. Yes. Well, because when you understand yourself, you understand like why certain kinds of issues keep cropping up and then you can offset them or recognize them. Or if somebody else has a habit that you're finding really annoying, you can say like,

oh well, maybe this is what's going on. This is how I could perhaps help or discourage or at least understand it. So for instance, one thing that comes up is that some people are overbires and some people are underbires. So, overbires are the people who love to buy, who love to shop. If they're going on a trip, they're buying 50 things. If they have a new baby, they're buying 100 things.

They buy lots of stores, 15 tubes of toothpaste. And they deal with clutter because they have to manage all this stuff. And then also maybe they can't even remember what they have or I have a friend who's an over buyer and she had a new baby and she bought all the winter clothes for the baby, but of course the baby was bigger than expected in the growth and when it got called

that year, nothing fit and nothing worked at all. She bought an entire winter wardrobe that never fit her baby because she was just trying to choose over buying in advance. So over buyers should think, you know, I don't need to prepare for everything. I can wait to see what I need and I don't need to have so much deep stores. I don't need 15 tubes of toothpaste. You know, that's like lifetime supply. Then there are under buyers andbires are people like me.

I thought I was the only one, but it turns out there are many underbires. And these are people who just don't like to shop, they don't like to buy. Weirdly, they will often buy very, like when I use saline solution all the time, I would buy one bottle at a time, even though it meant I had to go back and buy it more times, because somehow I just didn't like the idea of buying three bottles at once. Why? It's irrational. I get it.

And they will often, they don't like things that are over specialized. Like I didn't never had bought like a facial tissue until I had a family because I was like just blow your nose and toilet paper. Like who needs a special product for that? You know, or why would I use hair conditioner? So it's like too specialized. Anyway, um, so over and overbirers often won't get something until they absolutely, absolutely have to have it. So it's like, but if you try to go by mittens in the middle of February,

they might not have mittens the way they would have. These are underbirers. Yeah, underbirers. Like they don't, they're always buying things at the last minute. Like, oh, I need ski pants for my ski trip tomorrow. Oh, they don't have my size. It's like, yeah, because you put it off for so long and now you have this big problem.

And you would think, well, under buyers probably don't have clutter because they don't want to buy things. But the problem with under buyers is they hate the idea of going out and buying something so much that they will keep everything for fear that, oh, well, what if one day I decided I did want that electric purple sweater and then I had to go get one. So I should just hang on to this one,

even though I haven't worn it in five years, I don't even like it. So underfires have to remind themselves, like it's okay to buy, you will feel better if you take the time, really push yourself to buy enough to carry you over. And if there's something that you really, really are not using, you should let it go

because the occasion may never arise when you need it. And if so, you can get them all. It is possible. It will not kill you. It's striking as I said here, listen to you talk, because we've done this many times, that you were saying, Rickondo has this sort of one size fits all approach, but you've you've talked about way broader set of issues in your career than cluttering. Yes. Now we're talking about habit formation and we've talked about general happiness. You strike me and I don't know if this is an LG you will like or not like Swiss Army

knife. Just, I mean like I raditat that I can throw any question at you, and you will have like six really insanely useful things to say. Does that land for you? Oh, that's so nice to hear. I hope so. Yeah, that would be great. I would love to think of myself as a Swiss army knife.

I mean, the thing is my subject is human nature. Like, that's what I'm always thinking about. And so it's sort of like, you know, at one time I'll get really, really interested in habits and how habits, you know, that's just one slice of human nature. But then through it, you see a lot of other things in a human nature. And again, outer order feels like this kind of postage stamp on the large parcel of human nature. But there's a lot to be learned. I've always ever since as long as I can remember, and certainly in law school, I've been really, really interested in people's relationships to possessions.

Why, how do we feel about the things that we own? This was a big element in happier at home, my book about home, but I feel like that's so interesting, so I was really happy to have the opportunity to really think about in this way. This isn't even just about possessions generally, but just about the things that we really don't want. Swiss Army knife isn't, maybe it's the right analogy, but part of what you do is you talk about these super, almost superficial things that we can do.

Oh, you have to get a bowl over. I know, I know. But it's also connected to deep human needs. Well, that is true. And you know, it's funny, but it's like, if the bowl of requirement means that your family vacation is full of fun and tenderness and lightheartedness, instead of everybody being incredibly cranky,

because you had to spend 45 minutes looking for, you know, somebody's phone, that is going to have a benefit. I mean, it's just like, you and I often talk about the importance of sleep. The thing is, if you are really chronically under slept, everything in your life is gonna be harder. Your relationships.

Everything's gonna be, either relationships are gonna be harder, eating is gonna be harder, exercising is gonna be harder, making fun plants is gonna be harder, everything is gonna be harder. And it's like, oh, set a snooze alarm to go to bed on time. It's like, that sounds like, okay, that's not rocket science. No, it's not rocket science, but that's what I think is really encouraging. Because a lot of times we really can get to these more transcendent values.

Like, our affection and love for other people, our ability to manage ourselves and to show self-mastery, our ability to ask more from ourselves. Really is very often tied to these little day-to-day things. And the fact is, you really might be able to write your book more easily. If you cleaned off all the junk on your cork board that's just kind of visually overstimulating you out of the corner of your eye every time you look at it. It's a small thing, but it's the irritant. It's a little bit of sand that if you got it out of the works, just might make it a little bit easier. And to me, it feels like low-hanging fruit.

From a lot of the things I write about, there are things that you can do without a lot of time energy or money. It's like, why wouldn't you just make your life easier and then happier, healthier, more creative, more productive with these little things? Yeah, it's creating the conditions. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Before, that's the way to put it. For us to as a Zid, before access our deeper values.

Yes, yes. There's a researcher I've long wanted to have on the show. I haven't had her on yet. Christine Poirath, I believe her name is at Georgetown, and she writes about civility. Yes. And I think I said this to you when we were chatting before we started recording, but one of the first things

she will apparently tell people when they're asking about how to either be more civil themselves or create a more civil environment in their workplace or home, and she'll just say, get more sleep. Ah, there you go. It is about creating the structures in your life that will live. You know, we talked about this as well,

and my listeners will know I had this 360 review while I go, it was very damaging, not damaging, it was very damning in some ways, but also incredibly important and meaningful. And there are a lot of levels to the steps that I'm taking subsequently, but some of the levels are seemingly superficial about making sure I have enough time to get enough sleep

and exercise and play time with my son and my wife, making sure that my professional commitments are in order and orderly and not over committed, et cetera, et cetera, which these are not character-a-logical or spiritual things, but they create the conditions to go deeper. And I see that in a lot of your work. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And it's by, and also sometimes the transcendent values are more abstract. And, but by doing these concrete things, we kind of give ourselves the bandwidth

to turn outward and to think about more transcendent issues and to think about the problems of the world. Sometimes people think like, oh, if you take the time to work on yourself and do self-care and you know, if you're too worried about getting your own sleep, well, you're just selfish and spoiled. Or they think that in a world so full of suffering, it's really not morally appropriate to think about your own happiness or your own, you know, whatever. But really what research shows is that happier people are more interested in the problems of the world. They're more interested in the problems of the people around them. They're more likely to donate money or volunteer time or to vote. Turns out that being happier and well-rested and having energy doesn't

make people want to drink my ties on the beach. It makes them want to go register people to vote, you know. So really there is, and you talk about this all the time that it's like we take care of ourselves and that allows us to turn outward. And if we don't do that, if we don't do that. And again, like part of it is like letting yourself, your body get run down, but then letting your space get out of control, where you can't find anything that you need,

where everything, for you to put your shirt back in is just, you have to jam it in there so hard. I mean, these things just, they accumulate over time. It's a death of a thousand cuts. And as you said before, something that resonated with me, I'm much of what you say it does. But one thing that stood out that I didn't comment on was, when you're talking about making your desk a pleasant place

to work so that you can go back to work. And you said, get back in the chair. Well, many of us are engaged in work that we feel is important in the world. And if our physical environment is actually at obstacle to us engaging in that work, well then we ought to think about decluttering even though it may seem like something you would binge watch a Netflix and their fordnots for deep.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and just you talking about how a new boss made small but significant changes that just made it more pleasant. Well, it's like, well, now maybe people will sort of sit in the sitting area and like have a 10 minute conversation. And then that's going to deepen people's personal connections. And what all the research shows is that when you say to people, are you happy at work? One of the biggest factors is, do I have a friend at work? Do I feel warmly? Do I feel connected to the people that I work with? Do I feel like they really care about me as a person, not just this person filling this role? And so these little things actually end up having reverberations in, you know, higher aspects of our lives.

I want to move on to some non decluttering stuff, but before I do that, you said before, I said before that I wanted to talk about the stuff that we talked about on GMA. Another thing we talked about on GMA was there's something about hacking the way we shop that can reduce clutter. So can you go into your shopping tips? Yeah, so one shopping tip is if you, this is especially useful for over buyers, but anybody who kind of shops thinking, well, maybe I'll need this or this could come in handy or I should stock up on this. Is to remind yourself, you can always store it at the store. Yes, it might be common handy, but you can just leave it where it is. You know that it's there.

You'll store it at the store and then whenever you want to go get it, you can go get it. So that's one way to resist shopping. Another is impulse purchases online. Many people get into that kind of 11 p.m., one glass of wine, clicking around the internet, doing online shopping, and make a lot of impulse purchases that end up being things that they don't need, use or love. So one thing you can do is to eliminate your accounts,

so that you are always shopping as a guest. So if you really want something and need something, you will go through the steps of entering your shipping information, your billing information, your credit card information every time. Or you might just be like, oh my gosh, I'm too tired. I'll wait till the morning. And then when the morning comes, probably you'll never think about that item again. Now, if you're in a store, because just like online stores are carefully designed to try to tempt us at every turn. Do not take a basket or a cart.

You can possibly avoid it because the more, again, it's about inconvenience. The more inconvenient it is to add things to your pile and the more of a nuisance it is to walk through the store holding it, the more likely you are to decide, you know what? I don't know that right now. If I need it, I can get it another time. Because the easier it is, the more inclined we are to just throw things in. And without even giving it a second thought, you come home from the store and you're like,

oh my gosh, I completely forgot about that thing. Yeah, you could just have not bought it. You said something before we started recording that is interesting. You and I have talked a lot about eating. Yes. And in particular, sugar. Yeah, we were kind of the same.

Wiring. Yes. For sure. And you said, and you didn't explain it, so I'm going to get you to explain it now, that actually decluttering can help with the overeating. Yes. Talk about that.

OK, so one of the things about eating healthfully is that it comes from a sense of self-mastery. And it might look better than before, which is all about how to change. I talk about all the ways you can go about trying to change a habit. There's a lot of different ways, different approaches you can use. But at the foundation of all these is the idea that you are using self-mastery. You're asking yourself to do one thing and not another. And so for self mastery, again, sleeping is really important for self mastery. Getting a little bit of exercise, these things that keep your energy up.

But also your environment can contribute to your self mastery. And because partly because of how you engage with it, and then also partly about the identity that it's reflecting back to you. So just imagine yourself. Just imagine yourself. Just imagine yourself walking through your kitchen, just your own kitchen at 10pm tonight. And there's a bag of open potato chips on the counter. If you open the refrigerator, there's leftovers, but the tin foil isn't quite down on some

of them. You open up a cabinet and there's a peppered farm cookies packaged with the flute open at the ready. And you're thinking, you know, just like, or maybe there's like a bag of chocolate covered raisins like in a plastic bag and you're like, let's take a handful. You know, I'll just take a few chips. I'm just wandering through what's in here. And it doesn't contribute to your sense of self mastery. If you walked into your kitchen and everything was closed tight, the cookies were closed tight and on a high shelf, the potato chips were closed tightly and on a high shelf, the

leftovers were all put away nicely, the counters were wiped, the cabinets were closed, and the door was off. And the light was off. And you walk into that kitchen. Do you think you'd be like, oh, now I'm gonna grab, I'll just take one cookie, I'll just grab a handful of chips. You just wouldn't, it would take a lot more,

you would have to overcome many boundaries. And it's just like everything's been put away, it feels much more like, am I acting? Because since everything is orderly in in its place, and here's another thing you can do, brush your teeth. Because again, brushing your teeth, it's like, oh, I already brushed my teeth. Are you, am I now gonna eat that cookie?

When I asked her, I came to that, I feel on my own actually. It's great. Yes. Well, I think on a number of what? Once it creates that feeling in your mouth, that then kind of turn, it sort of makes you not wanna eat, I don't know.

I think it also signals to the body, we're done. Like, I've brushed my teeth. After dinner, we brushed our teeth. It's done. And it sort of puts you out of the mindset of grazing. Because some people, and I used to do this myself, so I know exactly how it is. It's like you have dinner, but then there's the 9 o'clock snack, then there's the 10 o'clock. We just wander through.

You laugh when I struggle with this mightily. So try closing down your kitchen. Put everything like close the door to your kitchen or no everything like close the, do you have a door to your kitchen? Or no? Now, okay. Well, at least turn off the lights. Just shut it down. It's like this.

I'm brushing your teeth. It's flossing your teeth. I'm like, I'm really, because it's again, that part of the day is over. Eating time is over, and we are now headed to bed.

You could even put on your pajamas, because it's like, now we are. Actually, when I'm home, I never take off my pajamas. Okay, there you go. Yoga pants. That's an acceptable alternative to yoga pants,

it's pajamas. But again, it's the self-mastery. And then also, when everything is put away easily, you are more inclined to put stuff away. I think a lot of times people don't put things away because it's hard to put them things away, because there's just too much stuff jammed in there. But if you really go through and everything's just put in its place,

it just, there's just an orderly sense. And the fact that your environment is orderly makes you feel more orderly also. Makes you feel more in command of yourself. So I think that it really can help. And also, one of the things, and I feel like this very much with food, is if you see it, it occurs to you that you want it.

If you don't see it, you can forget about it much more easily than your bank. I would see this with my children because they'll like make a pan of brownies and you're like, you literally just made this pound of pan of brownies, but I put it away. I just covered up, I put it on a shelf. They don't think about it, you literally just made this pound of bread, pound of brownies, but I put it away, I just covered up, I put it on the shelf. They don't think about it, you know,

until they're like, oh, you know, but if not, if it's just sitting on the counter, people could be eating brownies all day long. This happened to me last night, I ate a healthy dinner, but then there was like pretzels and bread all out on the table on the counter, and it occurred to me that I wanted it and I ate a ton and then I hated myself.

But see, and even if you hadn't eaten any of it, you would have had to be like, don't eat the pretzels, don't eat the bread. Don't eat the pretzels, don't eat the bread. Yes, it's a lot of friction. It's a lot of friction. Now, that's why I believe, for me, it's easier just to never eat it at all

because then I'm not tempted by the pretzels because I never eat pretzels. Am I gonna have a pretzel? No, because I don't eat pretzels. So that's my solution. But for most people, it's easier just out of sight, out of mind. That really, really works with temptation. But so the the the apps utter complete abstinence wrote, which you

talk me into, you bullied me. And the not and not pejorative, and the best sense of the term bully, the giving up sugar forever thing has made a huge difference because now we do have because I have a four year old there's there's little. Sweet things all over the place. It's not an option. So I'm not struggling as well. I do want it. Yeah, I do. But and I work on good morning America and they're constantly bringing out little sugary things. TV is terrible. TV is my sister's a TV writer and it's, she talks about the evil donut bringer, like the person who's like, and on top of everything else we have, I'm bringing in donuts. Yes. And then you, yeah.

And so it's all over the place, but being a guy who doesn't eat sugar anymore as you advise me to be has really changed that. Well, because if you just don't eat it, then a lot of the decision fatigue of resistance, deciding, yes, no, now, later, one, two, three, it's my birthday, it's raining, this is one of a kind. These are the best. These were flown in from Los Angeles, from the best cupcake maker in the world. You're just like, yeah, I don't need sugar.

So those cupcakes look great, but I don't need sugar. And I think for people like you and me who have really, really serious sweet tooths, it's like, you don't want, the minute that sweet tooth gets activated, it's on. I'm like, I don't wanna have one bite because now I can have, what I will have is like,

let's say somebody's having a weird ice cream flavor, like creamed corn ice cream or something like that. I will have a bite of that because I just want to know what it tastes like. But I wouldn't have like, I'm going to have a bite. I won't have one bite of a chocolate chip cookie because then I'll just want a whole cookie and then I'll want 10 cookies and it's just too boring. It's just too boring to have those thoughts. It's just easier to not have any.

But this doesn't work for everyone. We should be clear. This is a standard and we're talking about it's standards ofers or people for whom it's easier to give up things altogether. They can have none or they can have like 15. It's very hard for them to have a little bit. But there are moderators. This is a thing. Some people are moderators.

They do better when they have a little bit. When they have something sometimes. And they get kind of panicky and rebellious when they're told they can never have something. And like on our podcast, Happier, our first producer was a moderator and he would have like one piece of fine chocolate every other day and his mother gave him this box

of like beautiful fine chocolate and it would stale. Cause he would just have like one piece every other day. I'm like, I would eat the whole thing the first day. I mean, I just, it's like, I might as well eat it at 8 a.m. Cause otherwise my whole day is like, what about as well eat it at 8 a.m. because otherwise my whole day is like, what about that chocolate? But he's a true moderator. And so there's no reason for moderators to try to abstain.

But sometimes moderators say, to me, I don't know if you hear this, it's not healthy to be so rigid. You shouldn't demonize certain food. You should follow the 80-20 rule, life's too short to eat a brownie. And I'm like, that works for you? It doesn't work for me.

And then I want to say to moderators, why don't you just go cold turkey? Why do you keep breaking the rules? Wouldn't it be easier just to take this off the table? But I have to recognize, not for moderators. They want to have three French fries. They want to have one square of fine chocolate. They want to have half a brownie.

I could never have half a brownie. I feel you. But before we close, there's one last area one to get into it It may maybe a big area or maybe not. I don't know. I have never asked you this before I just wonder as somebody who's looked at human nature and happiness for so long What thoughts do you have in the era of Trump? I'm so unhappy and they're and they're fighting with on we eat with each other and the news is freaking us out and so whatever side you're on there's angst and agita so i just wonder if you had any views.

Well i think that one thing that's important to remember is back to this idea of self management and i think we need to. And I think we need to find ways to manage ourselves even in the face of our distress. Like I've talked to people who are like, oh well, I started smoking again after the election. And I'm like, you need to handle your feelings in a way that don't make you start smoking again. Because that's not helping anybody. It's only hurting.

And you need to find a different way to respond. And for people, and I've seen this over and over, it does my own life, is that many people are responding by trying to get involved. And that is a great way to take that energy and that anxiety, which is to say, I want to be part of a solution. I want to figure out how we can do something a better way. I want to stand up for my values. And in that way, I think people feel that they can redeem in some way things that they find distressing because they're like, maybe this thing has happened, but I can

try to make something good from it. And whether that's working on voter registration or getting involved in political campaigns or even like, you know, trying to engage more deeply with people who have different beliefs to try to understand why do they have those beliefs? Can I try to help them understand my beliefs and why I think I'm right and they're wrong? Can I try to understand why they think they're right and I'm wrong? You see this happening all over and I think that's the most positive thing that can come from it. But I would say also, if you feel overwhelmed by just the constant stream of information,

try to find ways to manage that, whether it's only reading news or watching news for a certain amount of time, or having times of your day that are device-free, or screen-free, finding ways to manage the incoming information so that you get what you need to know to be an active involved civic member of society, civically minded member of society, but you're not spending 10 hours a day because you're not learning anything from the ninth hour to the tenth hour. Stan, listen to more happiness podcast.

There you go. That's one solution. Speaking of happiness podcasts, I think the last thing I love to do is just get people to plug everything. Oh, okay. So tell us about your podcast, tell us about your books, websites where we can follow you. Thank you.

Thank you. You can follow us on social media, give us everything. Yes, indeed. I do have a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Ruben, which I do with my sister, Lissa Kraft, who's a very successful television writer and producer in Hollywood. She's also very messy, so we've been having a lot of fun talking about clutter together. That comes out once a week, and it's all about how to be happier right on the nose. And then I have a website, GretchenRubin.com. And that's where you can get tons of information about all my books. And I have all kinds of discussion guides and manifestos and one pages and charts and all

kinds of things. You can listen to audiobook excerpts if you want to think of you want to listen to the audiobook or you can read an excerpt if you're wondering if a book would be interesting to you. And I'm on social media all over the place as Gretchen Rubin. And I love to engage with listeners and readers and viewers all about happiness, good habits, human nature, mindfulness, clearing clutter, all these things. You're the best. Thank you. This is so fun. I love coming to talk to you. I really love having Gretchen on the show. I also love just talking to her at any point. We spent some time without microphones around

chitchatting. And she just the level of the speed with which she spews out fascinating ideas is just a thing to behold. So I can pretty much guarantee that this will not be Gretchen's last visit to this podcast. So thanks again for Gretchen for to Gretchen for coming on and more to come. All right, so let's do your voice mail. Here's number one. Hi, Dan. This is Becca from San Francisco. And I've been listening to your app and your podcast for about five months now. and I've learned so much and really appreciated. In fact, I have signed up for my first silent retreat at Spirit Rock. And Joanna Hardy is going to be one of the instructors it's called True Belongings, and it's a six day silent retreat. Would love anything you can share about silent retreats. I know you covered a little bit in your podcast with Sam Harris recently, but questions I would have, basic questions like what you pack or even what you don't pack. How do you sit across from someone at a table eating and not able to talk to them? What happens if an anxiety or panic attack happens? How has that handled it, a silent

retreats? So any insight you'd be willing to share, I'd love, I'm a little anxious if an anxiety or panic attack happens, how has that handled at the silent retreat? So any insight you'd be willing to share, I'd love, I'm a little anxious already about it, but looking forward to it as well. Thank you so much, Dan. Bye-bye. Thank you. Those are excellent questions. Let me just say, first of all, you don't need to be anxious. You're going to be in really good hands. There are meditation retreat centers across the country, but you're going to one of the absolute best spirit rock, which is in, I believe, marine county, north of San Francisco. And you're going to Joanna Hardy, who's been on this podcast before. It is one of the stellar teachers on the 10% happier app and all around superior human being. So

you are in really good hands. Let me just say before I dive into the specific answer to your question, for those of you out there listening to this and thinking, well, I can't go on a retreat either because I can't afford it or because I don't have the time. Oh, by the way, in terms of affording it, insight, meditation, society, and spirit rock both give scholarships. So if money is the issue, you can inquire about that. But anyway, there are those who out there who just don't want to go on a retreat, can't go on a retreat, whatever. And sometimes this discussion of retreats can trigger some insecurity and doubt make people feel like, oh man, I'm not doing this thing. So I'm a failed meditator. No, that is not true. You can absolutely be a head held,

sorry, head held high, card carrying, bona fide, meditator, if you're doing five to ten minutes most days or just a few minutes, some days with an aspiration to eventually get to a daily practice, it's all good meditation, like all healthy habits, it's hard to establish, give yourself a break, you don't need to go all the way to a meditation retreat in order to consider yourself, somebody who's doing the thing and accessing its many many benefits. All right, that caveat out of the way I do think retreats are amazing and they can be a great way to Put the practice into your you know molecules so that you are so that the habit is deeply ingrained So I went on on my first meditation retreat after a year of

five to ten minutes a day and from there it really, you know, I had an experience on that retreat. I hated it at first and then I really loved it and then I hated it again. But that loving it moment really instilled in me for lack of a less loaded word, faith that there is true death to this practice and put my practice on steroids. So in terms of your advice, what should you pack? You're going to spare rockets in California. I just assume it's soon, you said it soon, so it's going to be kind of almost spring. You know, it's not going to be super cold weather.

If you're going to the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts, I would recommend winter clothes and boots at this time of year because you're going to want to go out and walk in the woods and you're not going to want to be freezing. But it's beer rock, you know, I think you're packing for reasonably warm weather with some maybe chilly mornings and nights, you're up early and up late so it'll be a little chilly. A lot of sweatpants because you're sitting around, essentially when I go and retreat, I pack just tons of sweatpants because you're sitting around Essentially when I go and retreat I pack just tons of sweatpants Tons of sweatpants so and sweatshirts because you want to be comfortable when you're sitting in the chair. I I

I Don't think you're gonna want like tight fitting tailored tapered khakis or anything like that In terms of sitting across from somebody at a table and eating without looking in the mini For me, I mean, yes, it's weird the whole thing is weird, but The hardest part is not all of the stuff around like not talking or being in a room full of people eating and nobody's looking at each other To me that's all strange the hardest part is just like Meditating all day every day. That is very very challenging and so all the things that I think, and I was speaking for myself, all the things that I thought would be weird going in like not talking, et cetera, et cetera. That's not the issue.

The issue is the practice itself is very challenging. It's incredibly rewarding and worthwhile, but that to me is what is always the hard part. So yeah, I mean, yeah, you're gonna be eating across from somebody and the whole point is to So yeah, I mean, yeah, you're going to be eating across from somebody and the whole point is to be eating silently and mindfully and actually doing this radical thing that we very rarely do in our regular lives, which is taste your food, maybe put the fork down between bites so you're not like simultaneously chewing while hunting around the plate for your next mouthful. I mean, that's the whole, the whole retreat is to, you know, break these lifelong habits of autopilot, being on autopilot. And so eating is just a part of that. It's a little awkward, but it's not insurmountable. You will survive that. In terms of your, I think your greatest fear was anxiety. And if you had an anxiety attack or a panic attack, and let me assure you, they

are well set up to deal with this. And there are, I can't remember about spirit rock specifically, but at Insight Meditation Society, there's like a special phone you can pick up. I think it's a red phone, and there's somebody there all the time to answer your call if you're in distress. They'll give you instructions about this at Spirit Rock. I can't remember what the phone looks like, but there are systems in place to deal with people who are freaking out.

I don't think it's super common, but it does happen, and they're aware of it, because when you slow down and you're no longer surrounded by the distractions, the various addictions and self-medications of daily life, your TV, your Twitter feed, your glass of wine, your ability to go shopping, all the things we do to keep ourselves away from our primordial sadness or fear or whatever. Yeah, things can come up. It doesn't happen to everybody, but it can happen. And the people who run this retreat, their professionals, they've been doing this for a decade, they'll be right there for you. So you can go talk to somebody in the main office,

pick up a phone if it's an emergency in the middle of the night, go talk to your teachers, you're gonna be met, I believe, with profound levels of expertise and compassion. So I wouldn't worry too much about that. One piece of advice that I would give you just that I would give myself going into every retreat, I never follow this advice. I always have to relearn this lesson, which is, I guess maybe two parts of it.

One is, emotions are going to come up. And I know, because I've written books about this, and I talk about it on the podcast all the time, that the important thing is not what you're feeling. The important thing is not to get so to analyze why am I so sad? Is it because this happened to me when I was seven or whatever? The important thing is to know clearly that you are feeling a thing and to investigate it mindfully, not to wallow in it, but to see what kind of thoughts is this emotion provoking? How is it showing up in my body? And then to see its impermanence

and that is incredibly powerful. To see that these various mind states come and go and we don't need to be owned by them. But of course, for me in my first couple of days of retreat whatever comes up often it's some sadness, this like ancient homesickness that comes up from me in the first couple of days. And I always get stuck. And then some teacher in the evening Dharma talk reminds me, oh yeah, it's just about seeing

these things come and go. And then I breathe a sigh of relief. The other piece of advice I would give you is don't push too hard. Now this is me talking to myself really, because I don't know you, and you may not be this type, but I Find that I am I'm just trying to advance my practice trying to win trying to do the best job possible and I'm expecting To achieve whatever results I might have achieved in my last retreat or ex or achieve whatever results I might have read about in a book and and this is like some weird I might have read about in a book and this is like some weird Video game where you can't advance as long as you want to advance You have to shift into this odd mode of dropping your expectations, dropping

Desire, which is a classic hindrance in the Buddhist schema, and when you that, the whole thing starts to move. And that's easier said than done and can often take days of banging your head up against the wall, again, in my experience. So those are the two, that's a lot of advice I've given you. You probably won't remember all of it, but good luck to you. I'm excited for you, and I think it's a really great thing to do. Next voicemail. Here we go.

Hi, Dan. This is Merrily from California, and my question is about meditating with pets. So I have two cats and occasionally while I'm meditating they like to meander over and start looking for some petting. And I'm just wondering how to sort of incorporate the cats into my meditation practice when they need attention. I've tried putting them in another room, but that doesn't work so well as they just sort of sit in the other room and cry, and I live in a fairly small condo. So that's my question. Thanks a lot.

Bye-bye. Not an uncommon problem if you're meditating at home. So I'll give you some thoughts. Let me start with a story. I heard a meditation teacher, I was on a retreat years ago and there's a meditation teacher. I think I'm pronouncing his name correctly. Matthew Danielle. Matthew, we've never met. So I hope you don't mind me stealing your story and probably mangling it. But I remember Matthew telling a story about meditating in his backyard in a tent. And he had these very aggressive cats

who were just meowing and going crazy and trying to get in this damn tent. And he was pissed. And it was very annoying. And it was showing up as a meditation and he was noticing his annoyance and listening to their noises, et cetera, et cetera. And this drama went on for a while

until he just let the cats in. And once he let the cats in, they just sat next to him while he meditated, and it was just fine. And Matthew was telling the story on two levels, as you might imagine. One is, you know, how to deal with your animals when they want to get in while you're meditating. And the other is, this is a great analogy for how we are with our difficult emotions. You know, we spent our whole, I mentioned that often on retreat, I experienced this kind of You know, we spent our whole, I mentioned that often on retreat, I experienced this kind of powerful resuscitation of the home sickness I felt when I was on, when I was at summer camp when I was a little boy, and I realized that I've probably been running from that feeling

my whole life, and I don't want to let it in on retreat. But actually, when you let it in, when you just stop fighting it, it pretty much curls up in your lap. It's the fighting it that feeds it. And yeah, so I always thought that was such an interesting, I'm going to steal that. Maybe I'll put that in my next book. Anyway, thank you, Matthew, for that story. I'll give you credit, I promise.

But as it pertains to your cats, that's the advice I would give you credit, I promise. But as it pertains to your cats, that's the advice I would give you. And I do this with my cats. I have three rescue cats. If you get cats, by the way, go to your local shelter and save a life. And sometimes I come over and sit in my lap and that's cool.

If I'm doing breath meditation, where I really wanna be focused on the feeling of my breath coming in and going out, that can be, you know, they can be a little distracting in that sense because maybe they're purring or I feel their approach or I feel the heft of them on my lap. So often if that's, if they're there,

I will switch over to an open awareness or noting practice where I'm just noting whatever arises. Maybe I feel my breath one moment or I notice I'm thinking or I notice the sound of the cat purring or the heft of the cat on my quadriceps or the cat moving, etc., etc. And this obviously all of this advice pertains to dogs. Yeah, so I would try that. If they're being crazy, like I have one cat, Toby,

who's just a pain, and sometimes I'll try to chew on my hair or something like that, well, then homies got to go, and I'll lock them in another room, and hopefully it doesn't cry too much. You can also, if they're crying, if they're misbehaving so badly in the room, that you do need to lock them in another room and they're crying, I would download some white noise to your phone and play that next to the door

and it will probably drown it out. All right, hopefully that's enough practical advice for dealing with the, the varmants in your house. I love the voicemails. Keep them coming. I promise, I promise, I promise, I know I've been saying this for months, but we're going to get actual meditations teachers on here soon to answer the questions. So you're not stuck with me. Before I go, I just want to thank everybody who's involved in this show, Ryan Kessler, the

producer Samuel Johns, who works for 10% happier and come on to help us up our game in lots of ways. Big thanks to Samuel as well. And thanks to everybody at ABC News Radio, who makes this show possible. Let him Steve Jones, who runs this joint. And thanks to you for listening. I'm gonna finish with my weekly plea,

which is please write us a review, rate us, talk about us on social media, all that stuff helps us in the rankings and really helps ensure that we can continue doing this work, which I will speak for myself. I'd love to do. Thank you for listening. See you next Wednesday.

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