Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 208: Doing Diversity Work Without Shame, Self-Compassion Series, Sydney Spears

Episode Date: October 9, 2019

Dr. Sydney Spears is a professor at the University of Kansas School of Social Welfare and holds a PhD in Clinical Social Work from Smith College. As a woman of color, she tells us she has experienced layers of oppression and discrimination. Looking for a way to make sense of these experiences, and the difficult emotions she felt because of them, she became interested in meditation. Through her mindfulness practice she realized her identity did not need to be defined by the social constructs society often uses to discriminate. She found comfort in knowing that while she may not be able to control her external experiences, no one could affect her internal peace. Now she teaches the concept of mindful self-compassion to help others come to this same realization. Plug Zone Website: https://midlifeateasecounseling.com/ Twitter: @MidlifeAtEase Midwest Alliance for Mindfulness: https://mindfulness-alliance.org/ ***VOICEMAILS*** Have a question for Dan? Leave us a voicemail: 646-883-8326 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. For ABC, to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, we're back with part two in our three part series on self-compassion as stated last week. I and many other people don't love the term self-compassion, but it is the term that is, you know,

kind of the generally accepted term. I do, however, love the concept. Concept that we can go easy on ourselves without going soft, and that a certain amount of self-directed warmth can not only make us happier, but more resilient and more effective. Super powerful, and that's why we're dedicating three straight shows to it.

Before we dive in with this week's guest, three quick pieces of housekeeping. First, I just want to point out that a previous guest on the show and a personal friend, Elvis Durand, massively popular radio DJ, the star of Elvis Durand, and the morning show, has a new book out. It's called Where Do I Begin?

I have not read the book yet, but I'm guaranteeing you that if Elvis wrote it, it's hilarious, and titillating, and tells all sorts of inside stories from his years dealing with major celebrities. And also, not for nothing, he's a very consistent meditator, so I would imagine infuse his stories with that kind of insight. Second piece of business, again, this week we're gonna be posting a bonus meditation

in the podcast feed here. So keep your eye out for that. This one's from Jessica Mori and it is on the theme of self-compassion. Third piece of housekeeping is that this week's guest, Sydney Spears, is a recommendation from Kristen Neff, widely acknowledged to be the world's leading academic expert in self-compassion. I want to thank Kristen for recommending Sydney to us. Just a small note, you'll hear me reference

my conversation with Kristen because Kristen is going to, our conversation with Kristen is going to air next Wednesday. You're going to hear me reference my conversation with Kristen as if it's already posted in the podcast feed, although it hasn't. And that's because while I was interviewing Sydney, I assumed we would be posting Kristen's episode first, but we didn't ultimately decide to do that. So apologies for any confusion there. In any event, let's get to our guest, Sydney Spears. In any event, let's get to our guest, Sydney Spears. She is a professor at the University of Kansas. Before that, she got her PhD in clinical social work from Smith College. Her areas of academic expertise include clinical social work, diversity, equity inclusion, social justice, trauma-informed care,

and many other things. She is somebody who not only teaches and studies in these areas, but she's also a practitioner. She does therapy for both individuals and couples. And I brought her on because she's got a lot of interesting things to say about, in other words, if you're engaged with trying to, you know, wake up to your own biases and to, uh, in the work of relating better to people from different kinds of backgrounds, self-compassion is really important. A lot of shame, anger, fear, can arise while doing this work. And so self-compassion is a really, I think, useful, corrective. Just a quick note on this. Why would you engage in this work?

There are many reasons, but let me just give you one simple, self-interested reason. If you're involved in a professional work of any sort, there's lots of data to show that diverse teams do better. And so therefore, you want to be able to do well on diverse teams. And so this kind of work is extremely important, but also, as mentioned, extremely difficult,

hence my desire to have Sidiante talk about how self-compassion can play a role here. She also, of course, talks about the role of self-compassion for people in marginalized communities, many of whom are not sadly aware of the fact that there are practices that can take you in this direction. We talk about all of that in this interview. We also talk about a personal story that Sydney has not shared before about how she used

self-compassion in her own life after personally experiencing some bigotry and hatred herself on a grocery store lying one day. That's all coming up and I just want to point out before we dive into the actual interview that stay tuned because in the back end we will not only be doing voice mails this week, but we got a supplemental piece of audio from Sydney who sent it in separately after the interview because she wanted to talk about the remarkable moment in a courtroom this week where a young man hugged a woman, a young African-American man,

hugged a white police officer who had shot and killed his older brother. So she has some things to say about that. It was a controversial moment for some, but a heartwarming moment for others. So she's going to weigh in on that. That's coming up first though. Let's do the proper interview.

Here we go. Sydney Spears. So nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too, Dan. Really appreciate you coming in. Oh, absolutely. How did you get into meditation? Well, I got into meditation retrospectively going back when I think about it now. I didn't know it at the time.

But I am a baby boomer. And I was raised during a time where there was a lot of strife, observing a lot of strife growing up in the 60s and 70s and looking at the civil rights movement, looking at a lot of oppression that people who look like me were experiencing. Wow. Fire hoses. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think two being young and seeing that as well just really impacted me. And then also the women's movement was going on at that time, of course. Vietnam, I mean there was movements for people who are LGBTQIA plus.

I mean, all of that was going on, but I was really, what can I say? I was really just saddened. It made me feel fearful. I thought, oh my God, there's something wrong with me because those people are like me. I identify as a female. I identify as a person of color. And those are two of the intersections of identity that were being showcased as being not good enough, being oppressed, violence shown toward them, exclusion shown toward them as well.

So it was quite a strong experience for me retrospectively. Of course, as a kid, I didn't have enough understanding of everything at that time. But I also, in conjunction with that, I heard my parents' stories, you know, from their generation about the abuse and the segregation that they had experienced. I heard my grandparents' stories. So I had these layers of experiences around oppression and oppression in different ways. So all of that is to say that when I look back now,

I think that also had something to do with my connection and interest in meditation because I feel like what I learned from observing the oppression in my early years was there is another possible story that can be written socially, externally and internally about who I am and who those people are. It doesn't have to be this single social, cultural story that was socially constructed. And again, as a kid, I didn't realize all of that at the time, but now I know, now I know now I know and and I definitely see that point in my life leading me toward meditation because

Meditation is also about being with oneself holistically meditation is about being present as well meditation is about being present as well. Meditation is about noticing what one is experiencing. And in some ways, this is my interpretation too, how do we make meaning of those experiences? And what's happening externally to us and what's happening internally?

And is there dissonance there or is there connection? And if it isn't, what is that telling us? Is that a message that, in that curiosity, that it might be about, you know, is this my truth? I know there's this social single story that was constructed in society and through history about who I am, but is that really me?

And that's part of what I was struggling with as a kid, as well as throughout life, and I feel like that drew me to meditation via yoga though. Yoga was my starting point. Were you at what age were you when you were in college when you found yoga or? Yes, yes, because I was always drawn to movement, Dan, because dance, like in high school and movement, St. Louis. And now looking back, I can see the reason that I was so drawn to movement was that I was actually

pretty mindful when I was moving in terms of dance, in terms of fitness, that kind of thing. I lost track of time. I felt like I was really present. I was really with that experience, truly being with that experience. Now I can put the language to it. At the time, I wasn't strictly trained as a meditator or practicing as a meditator at that time. But, again, looking back at the dots, I can see that's exactly what that was. And it also, now that I can process it more so and reflect upon it more so, it also, I felt a sense of freedom.

Like moving my body in different ways, I was in charge of my body. And body, as we know, is connected to mind emotions as well. It's all a system. But I feel like that was the starting point. Was the movement. And then I started taking the yoga classes. If someone had told me at the time that I wouldn't

have been a yoga teacher, I was like, oh no, you've got to be crazy. There's no way I'm not going to do that. But I started practicing yoga. I love Shavasana, which is final relaxation for those people who don't know about that. I love that. I was totally with it.

And I thought, you know, this has been so helpful to me in terms of that, building that, mind that internal mind and that internal freedom that I had always sought, that I have an internal reality. And it doesn't have to be in every situation, the stories that have been built, excuse me, been built about me around who I am. So you don't need to bring all of society's stories into the room with you for every interact, which is I think where you were going.

I didn't quite follow the beginning of what you were saying about how these stories, we don't have to accept all of these stories that are, as you said, socially constructed. Is that where the rubber hits the road where you can start just being Sydney divorced from whatever story may be told about you based solely on your pigmentation or your, or your chromosomal structure. Yes, exactly, exactly. There is Victor Frankl. I don't remember his exact quote, but he was a Holocaust survivor.

Man searched for me. Yes, yes, yes. And really, that's his premise at the end of the day is that, you know, as a Holocaust survivor are being in that situation when he talks about the fact that there were certain things he couldn't control. They were going to kill him. They killed his family. I mean, he couldn't control that external possibility and reality with his family that they could take a lot from him, but they couldn't take his spirit. And that was about internal awareness, internal being, internal construction of who one is. So that's, that's the point. But don't you have to be aware, don't we all have to be aware? Yeah, we want internally not to be burdened by society's stories or our old stories as we, you know, enter into a fresh interaction. We just met. So I don't necessarily need to, I don't necessarily

need to take all of society's baggage or my personal baggage into what hopefully will be a fresh, spontaneous interaction with you. By the same token, don't I need to understand? Oh, well, it's natural that Sydney may make a bunch of, even subconscious conclusions about me based on how I'm dressed, the fact that I'm white, the fact that I'm male, my age, et cetera, et cetera. And don't you need to be aware of that

as you navigate the world? Oh, absolutely. I mean, in terms of, are you thinking about biases? Is that what you're thinking for other people or assumptions? Yeah, biases and assumptions. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I need to, I mean, I can imagine that it would be very useful not to be wholly owned by the social narrative around my particular identity. By the same token, you got to be aware of the fact that other people may be wholly owned by that. And I may walk into a room with people who are hostile toward middle-aged white guys,

and I should be aware of that. Absolutely. I mean, that's part of understanding oppression. There's two piece in the word oppression. And those two piece stand for understanding one's power and one's privilege. And the more that one can be aware of those two piece in this social world. The better able they can be, especially if they understand how that resonates for themselves and how those two piece might resonate for someone else that they may be an interaction with. And whether the human system is one person or whether it is a community or a nation,

etc. to have that type of awareness does help when it comes to cross-cultural interactions so that it does not generate microaggression other traumas because a lot of this is connected to people experiencing. Some people experiencing trauma on different levels. But it takes that awareness, which mindfulness definitely can be an assistant to building that awareness of one's self and other around privilege and around the power, the power differentials as well when we're working with someone else to be aware of, oh, I have more power. Like for instance, I teach at a university. I also do psychotherapy. So I'm always aware of the power that I have walking into the space.

And the people that I'm working with, the students, or my clients, they don't have the power. But how does that show up in the space? How does that play out dynamically? Sometimes consciously and sometimes unconsciously, but the more we can build some mindful awareness around the power in the space for myself and for the other, the more it will have a likelihood of decreasing harm.

So, okay, you've invoked mindfulness. Let's get back to your story of how you went from yoga, yogi, and yoga teacher into adopting meditation and what did it do for you? Okay. So I told you about the yoga. So from that point of practicing yoga, teaching yoga, it generated this interest in meditation and mindfulness. And so I took an MBSR mindful based, mindfulness based stress reduction class in my community. And then I got the opportunity to finally take the training with John Kabat-Zinn before he stopped doing the professional training. So I did that. So you became sort of a MBSR certified instructor?

I didn't become a certified instructor. I took the training though. He has a professional training for people who want to do this professionally or integrate it into the work that they do. I should just say John Kabison, he's been on the show before. He is quite a famous dude. He is the progenitor of MBSR. Right. And then I started taking other trainings. I took a training in I-Rest, which stands for Integrative Restoration by

a psychologist and researcher, Dr. Richard Miller. I took that as well. And that's like doing a long final relaxation. It's mainly done line down but people can be seated but it is it is being instillness for long periods of time or longer periods of time. It can be shorter though and it was developed specifically for people who had dealt with trauma. Had you experienced trauma yourself? Dr. Pompa Oh, yes, definitely, definitely. And even in terms of the oppression, because there's lots of research literature that is supporting the idea that oppression was trauma.

Is the trauma or can be trauma and there's different types of oppression. And when you say oppression and what do you and you say oppression, what do you mean specifically? That there's a dynamic between two systems, two human systems, one that has power, one that has less power, or very little power, in interaction where one group becomes dominant, one becomes non-dominant, and then as a result there are different types of dynamics like powerlessness, there's marginalization that can occur, there's also violence that can occur, there's also helplessness that can occur, there's also exclusion that can occur. So, and those are what they call faces of oppression, how they show up in the world. So even with the violence that goes on, you know, the shootings with the recent ones with Hispanic population in Texas, you know, some people will look at that such as myself

and that is a vicarious trauma. But for those people that experienced it a close and personal, how could that not be a trauma? How could that not be traumatic? It's not just oppression. That's traumatic and separating families and just the horrificness of being shot, being there, witnessing all of that.

All of those people are experiencing trauma. It's not just oppression per se. It can be different types of oppression because there's institutional oppression with larger systems, the structures that are in place to exclude certain people or give advantage to certain people and disadvantage to others and how that shows up in health care, in the military, it can be an education, it is an education. All of those big systems and big institutions and how the dynamics of oppression and trauma,

possible trauma can play out. And then there's also ideological oppression, ideological oppression would be just the values and norms within a particular culture like an American culture, what are the values and norms that support marginalization? What are the values and norms that support the American values as being the goal standard of cultural values? And anything outside of that is not supported or not honored to that

degree. So that's an example of ideological oppression. There's also interpersonal oppression. Interpersonal oppression, it would be between people, microaggression, somebody said something that was hurtful, was harmful and can be experienced for some people as dramatic. There's also, and by the way, let me say it's not just what someone says when it comes to microaggressions. It can be actions that exclusionary action, for example, and perceived exclusion of action. Can be behaviors, can be slights, I mean, can be a lot of different areas that happen across

human interaction. So it's not just words, that's my point, not just language. Then there's another type of oppression that is called internalized oppression. An internalized oppression is about the people who are non-dominant that some of us can turn that particular oppression and the single story of oppression that has been built internally. So negative self-talk around, okay, maybe there is something wrong with me because I keep getting this reflection back in society that there's something wrong with me. I have a nephew in St. Louis who has been stopped by the police multiple times and for no reason.

I mean, he wasn't doing anything. He was driving his mom's car, but just stopped by the police. Well, that's a reality that not everybody experiences. So he doesn't do this, but it could be very easy for somebody like him to go, wow, you know, what is it about me that I keep getting stopped by the police? I know I am of color. I know I'm a male. I have those intersections of identity. But here we are in 2019 and they're still the bias. They're still the, the sometimes unconscious bias as well as conscious bias, that I am experiencing in my world,

just walking around in my world. I'm just, I'm really like everybody else internally, but externally, I have to constantly deal with these situations that people who don't have that skin color, people who don't have a male gender identity or male gender expression don't have to deal with. So it could be easy for some people to internalize that about who they are, not all, but for some people. The other thing that it can do with internalized oppression is some people not just of color, not just gender identity, but other identities that are non-dominant.

So, let's take age, ageism. Let's take classism, for example. People are homeless exactly. People are in poverty. So there's other identities beyond those. But some of those people could easily feel like I cannot be vulnerable because the social world has already constructed that for me historically. So therefore, I have to build this internal self, but it can go to the extreme for some people, notice my qualifier, some people, because some people feel like who have experienced

non-dominant identities and intersections of those, I have to be strong because I cannot show the world. My humaneness of being vulnerable, so I have to build this strong self. This strong, sometimes overdoing self, that I've got to prove in some ways. I remember when I was the first person in my family to go to college and the phrase at that time that I was taught by my family and some other people of color, and women, sometimes we just have to be twice as good. So there's that story that was built from family and others who

look like me. Like you've got to be twice as good. But then of course that can be strenuous because again, some of us are taught you can't be vulnerable, you can't let down, you've got to always be on, you can't, you get what I'm saying. So it can be exhausting. Yeah, it's a lot of stress on the system. Yes, yes. So that can be a part of internalized oppression. Another part of internalized oppression for people who have non-dominant identities. For some of them is that some of us

can turn against people within our non-dominant social group, like put them down in certain ways. And there's actually a psychological defense that's in the literature, psychological literature around this. It's basically if you can't beat them, join them, but it's really called identification with the oppressor. Basically, if you can't beat them, join them, but it's really called identification with the oppressor. And so some people who are oppressed will start to say negative things or think that the dominant way is really, because we assimilate too, we adapt as well, the dominant way is the best way.

So I have to shun people who look like me to some degree, and I have to identify with the powerful ones, because that's the only way I'm going to get through and get over. So I don't think that we talk about internalized oppression as much in this country. But for some people who have those non-dominant identities, they're holding a lot.

They've been holding for quite a while. And there's not many contexts or spaces for many of them to talk about it. We're talking a lot about oppression for people who have been privileged and powerful, that there needs to be more discussion, there needs to be more dialogue. We no longer should walk around the elephant in the room. But then on the other side, because it is a dynamic, oppressed in the oppressors, the privileged and the non-privileged socially.

Again, not saying that people, all people feel that internally, non-dominant, but socially. But there's not as much space for people who have those intersections of identity that are non-dominant to speak their truth and be able to be with their truth of what they're really experiencing because of all the social pressures to be like the dominant side, whatever that dominant social identity might be. Like I said, it could be whiteness, it could be class wise, you know, the wealthy. It could be younger people versus older people. It could be able-bodied people

versus people who are physically, emotionally, neurologically challenged. So the same dynamic generally plays out regardless of what the social. You have to nail this. Mailness, yes, absolutely. And femaleness. And other gender identities, because the reality is when it comes to gender identity, there are people out there in the world that are not believing in binary identities.

That's just male and it's just female, that there's a fluidity in between. And it's not just all or nothing that they have identities that are connected to a multiplicity of gender identities. So, okay, so you've painted a pretty good picture here. What is the, and it's taken me a while to get to this. So I apologize.

But we wanted to bring you here to talk about self-compassion. I don't really love the term self-compassion, but okay, we can set that aside for a second. I like the concept a lot. What is the role of self-compassion given the landscape that you've just painted for us? Well, given the landscape that I just painted, I would say that self-compassion is about bringing

in mindfulness. When we talked about the awareness piece around privilege, around power, awareness of what one is experiencing internally, as well as externally. And being with those difficult emotions that arise, because it is easy for people who are suffering to feel isolated, to feel like it's just me in the world who has experienced this particular emotion, especially when it comes to difficult emotions like shame, like guilt, like anger, frustration, loss, grief, because that's a big one to loss and grief. And then the other component is to bring in this level of kindness which is connected to being compassionate with oneself.

But I know Christine F.2 has expanded her concept around self-compassion, that it's not just the side of the softness that conjures up nurturing, comforting, soothing, supporting. It also contains that more active side of providing, of protecting, and motivating. And the two are actually interconnected. So when it comes to what I just talked about, I think it's a possibility for all of those responses, because it's really about how do we relate to difficult feelings situations to our suffering. Once we're mindful of them then how do we relate to them? Well let me just jump in for a second because you listed those three things. I just want to highlight this. My listeners will have heard, I think most of them

will have heard Kristen Neff on the show recently, and her prescription, I can't I don't remember if this is something she made up or it's still from the Buddha, I don't remember, or probably I think she designed it herself, but the three steps, especially she recommends using this in an acute situation when you're beating yourself up, you're specifically talking about a situation where social identity is coming into play, but those can also be acute situations, where the three steps are one is to be mindful of it, just to be non-judgmentally aware of the fact, oh yeah, I'm feeling some sort of pain right now, or somebody else in the room is

feeling some sort of pain right now, to recognize that suffering is universal. I'm not the only person who's felt this kind of pain. Perhaps I'm not the only person in the world who's feeling this kind of pain right now. So to put it your own drama and some sort of larger perspective is useful. And three, to send yourself some good vibes for lack of a less 70s-ish term. And as I understand it, that's really what she recommended. That three-step process,

which you can get better at over time is like the habit she would recommend we slot in every time we're in a moment like that. Am I saying this correctly? Yes, yes, yes. It really is about that last part and all of it, but the last part in particular when it comes to the supporting piece, the nurturing piece, the providing piece, et cetera,

for us to be mindful of what do we need in this moment with our suffering? What do we need and how might we fulfill our own need? Well, to be practical about it. How do you do it when you're in a moment where you're not where you need to send yourself some support. What does that look like for you? And how does that play out in your mind? What I will do is I will notice my body actually. It comes through my somatic experience initially because emotions do show up in the body. They are connected. So the tightness. Yes, the mindfulness. So that's tightness in the chest that I experience. Very familiar with that. And sometimes a little shorter breath as well.

And so that gives me the cue to connect to my emotion. What am I experiencing in this present moment? So I've built in this, for me, the somatic experiencing. First, then identification of the emotions. So I will say to myself, in this present moment, I am experiencing anger. For example, I'm experiencing shame, whatever it might be. So I'm clearly identifying that. And then I will also, I just think to myself, I will think to myself. Sorry, she just, she, she's got excited to hit the mic with her hands.

Sorry, yes. It's, you're allowed to do that. Um, hopefully that doesn't trigger any shame. No, it didn't. Um, then I will think to myself, I'm not the only person who has this experience in the world. And then the third part is, I will come, it will come to my mind, what is it that I need in this moment. And then for me, I, there's actually a self-compassion practice of touch. It may resonate with some people and others, it may not. I think I know where you're going. Yes, yes, yes.

So, but for me, the one that that really connects to my sense of being is a hand on my upper arm actually. I will just stroke my upper arm. That's a somatic experience. And not just think about it. Does that really work? It's beginning to. But I will actually feel it, feel the sensation. Because this is for me connected to my nervous system.

Yeah, I have a hard time. I've talked to Kristen about this several times. I have a hard time with the, put your hand on your heart or stroke your arm thing. And that's undoubtedly because of some sort of male socialization or I don't know what, but it done the less the resistance is there. But you find that it, and I think you and many others find that this is useful. Yes.

The stroking of my arm, I know some people will put their hand on their heart. They might make a soft fist and then bring that to their heart or whatever. Some people will rub their hands, rub their palms together for example. But it really is bringing that mindfulness piece in as well as for some people such as myself. I mean, think about it as a hug. As a like almost like a self hug. When someone is upset for me, I'm feeling that.

And I also will connect a particular word that is useful for me or phrase sometimes. Like, you know, this is for me, this is peace. For me, this is soothing. I mean, what? It depends on the situation. But the other part that I do, especially when it comes to, you know, some kind of microaggression or something else that I perceive as frustrating that angers me, could be an experience that I

observed from somebody else experiencing, like I said, even on TV, looking at new stories sometimes that can be very, very painful seeing people hurt who look like me or that mirror me in some way shape or form. So the other thing that I do, though, is I will call to mind, Is this reflecting the truth of who I And my truth answers just like a family member for me. I'm saying for me, Kristen says to sometimes for a friend, a good friend, what would that friend say to you about that situation and how should you absorb that in terms of identifying with it, is that you, that violence, that hate, that disturbance, that ugly behavior,

ugly language about who I am? Or is this being more curious about how might I navigate this around my truth. So then I disidentified with it. So I'm saying the arm and that's the somatic part, but then the mindfulness and then part of that mindfulness is how am I meeting the need and the kindness or the compassion for myself and then I'm learning to disidentify with those situations as opposed to getting so caught up into them and thinking yes this is really who I

am because it's not. What about classic meta phrases, loving kindness phrases right out of the, you know, the Buddhist tradition, you know, for that third step. So again, the three steps, mindfulness, connecting to the broader human pageant, and then finally self-compassion. The, I guess, another thing we could do in that third step is just say to ourselves, may I be happy? May I be safe or something? With that also work in that third category? Yes.

Yes. That works for some people too. There's various practices and that's one that works for many. I have used that language for myself at times, but other times not. Other times, I will find words that are compassionate, but they are very, very connecting toward my specific experience too. Why do you think self-com, because you've really done a lot of work around this, why do you think self-compassion is particularly useful in this area around diversity? Yes, I think it's one of the things that can be really useful in terms of the suffering of people

who have experienced non-dominant social, cultural identities, because I feel like we need to have more compassion for our suffering. And as I mentioned before to you about internalized oppression because of the possible holding for some people and not having a release of that and almost in this state for some of us of denial that we have those feelings, feelings of shame, you've got to deal with the dominant world. You have to deal with the dominant culture that represents whatever social, cultural identity that you identify with. You know you still have to navigate that world.

There always has to be this dual consciousness. You have your own internal consciousness that you're carrying, but you also have to carry the social environment's consciousness, too. You think that's a dynamic that most people who look like me don't understand? Correct. Yes. I do think that it's hard for people who look like you to understand. I mean, some do, but they've done a lot of their work. But when you haven't had to actually navigate your body through this world and get the reactions and the comments and the behaviors and the discrimination and the bias and the microaggressions and the violence, when you haven't had

to deal with that, of course, you wouldn't understand. You would be really tough. I worked with the season now past, but I worked with this producer when I was much younger. Eddie Pinder, he was a producer here at ABC News. I was a young correspondent. We used to go out and do stories together in the field. And I remember we were talking about some race related issue and he just lifted his foot up over the table, pointed at his foot and said, walk a mile. And I think about that quite a bit. The closest I can imagine, the closest,

the best I can do in my empathic leaping here is junior high. You know, I started growing later than the other kids and so I was a little bit smaller. And there was a lot of bullying, was a hostile environment, and just sort of moving my body through that environment felt Procarious so that's the best I can do but I don't know if I'm even in the right neighborhood Well, you know, it's interesting. You should say that and share that experience because in one of my classes

just this past week, one of my first question in this class is called it's a social work class. It's called diversity, oppression, and social justice. And the first activity was to invite the students to think about a time in their life when they felt excluded, when they felt like people weren't listening, and you really needed to be heard at a particular time, you may have felt as though you didn't belong, you may have been in a group where you were in the minority

for your particular intersections of identity, where you're typically in the majority, and I'm talking about in quantity. I'll just give you an example. I remember I was in intern in the 1990s at a TV station or TV outlet in Washington, DC, and I was working one day. I was shadowing a news photographer. I remember his name Keith Plummer. He's a high-key thief. He's still around. And we went to Howard University for a shoot just me and him. And he looked to me. Keith was African-American.

He looked to me and walked down to the campus. All he said was, how does it feel? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a pretty mixed environment, but I was almost never the only white person in a large social system. I was at Black Friends houses, so I was able to be a white person, but that's different. It was, you know, because we might have been in a neighborhood that was mostly white, but this was a vast sea of people where I was in a way person. So anyway, I just throw that in as a Seasoning for your story. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Definitely. I mean, I think that that statement I may have meant

What is it like to be in the world where you cannot leave whatever might have been perceived as a bias or an issue or whatever you can't leave, you can't escape? This is me. I walk with this skin, this phenotype, this body, through the world all the time. I can't pull it off, can't change it. I can't go to another community, can't live in another area where those people aren't there, kind of concept.

This is my life. I've been this way since I was born and I will be that way until I die. I cannot change that. Like some people can change those identities. And not only that, but cannot change some people's conception of who I am walking around in the world. And I think that's a big part of awareness

for people who have more privilege and more powerful intersections of identity as well to realize that. What about self-compassion for people who are from dominant groups? I think I'll venture, I'll state a thesis. I think I believe this, but maybe you'll disabuse me. It feels to me that one of the most difficult

and perhaps pernicious emotions that can creep in when you're in my position, as somebody who's, again, from the dominant group in pretty much every category, is shame. Now, I'm not saying a wise remorse or a clear seeing of your mistakes is not called for, but I'm talking about shame, which is really just drives you back into yourself. So you're more stuck in your own story and can result in all sorts of negative actions because shame is such a, you really curled up and defensive in shame.

And self compassion seems like an antidote that would allow you to see, oh yeah, well, I just did something pretty dumb. It doesn't mean I am now and forever a thoroughgoingly rotten person. It just means I screwed up. And maybe with that self compassion, I would then have the wherewithal to go back and say, that's not how I want to be. I apologize. How can I fix things going forward? Yes, yes, I totally concur with that.

I think shame is one of those emotions that's very difficult to be with because it can be so deep for many people as well. And that sense of badness because one of the main things most of us don't want to experience in life is that I'm bad. You know, I'm bad and I have the guilt because I did something bad too. I've experienced plenty of it. I had a 360 review that I've talked about a lot on the show, which is, in June of 360 review, is basically you, it's done for, in a professional context, coaches, executive coaches will do this thing where they talk anonymously to people, they pick an executive, in my case, me, although I'm not really an executive of anything, but they talk to people who I work for, people who work with me, and people who work for me.

And in my case, we also did it in my personal life, like my wife, my brother, my two of my meditation teachers. And the results were really tough. You get an anonymous lengthy report and you read all these direct quotes from people saying, talking about your strengths and then really talking about your weaknesses. And I went into a period of thinking, I'm just irredeemable. And of course, that's just, I think my meditation teacher said, you're not irredeemable, just half of you is like the rest of us. You, just half of you is like the rest of us.

You're just half rotten, just like the rest of us. This is just, we're all people. And the irredeemable story is you can't get out of that. So then the immeasible, just, if you're redeemable, immeasible, just do all the bad stuff you wanna do. Whereas this concept that a previous guest, Dolly Chug, I don't know if you've ever heard of Dali Chug, she's at NYU, she's written a lot about

bias and how to navigate it and she has a concept good-ish. That if you think of yourself as a good-ish person, well then there's elasticity, then there's room for you to make mistakes, and if somebody points out that you've just said something racist or offensive, then your whole self-concept doesn't get called into question, because you think, oh, well, I'm a good-ish person, I made a mistake, it doesn't mean I'm a horrible person forever, I'm still a good person, I just screwed up. Right, right, exactly. I mean that's what needs to be done is that thought or that reflection as well because part of that is about helping us sit with those emotions, especially like I said, like shame, guilt, grief that are really,

really tough, and they're always master teachers in some way, shape or form, I feel. Yes, I'll just riff on that for a second. I found that the seeing all the stuff that I am really ashamed of, if I can get out of the shame narrative, which in some ways is a dodge, right? It's just, oh, I go straight to I'm irredeemable and then there's nothing to do. If I can actually just look at it with some friendliness, oh yeah, this is a capacity I have to be really, you know, schmucky. Then I can learn something incredibly useful about myself, about the stories I tell myself, about maybe my conditioning that would allow me to behave a certain way, maybe some primordial

program that was implanted to me in me as a through my parents or as a childhood survival strategy then I'm acting out now as a 48 year old that doesn't need to be here. So in that way, that's what I'm picking up on when you say master teacher. Identifying, clearly identifying emotions such as shame, guilt, etc. Those difficult ones can help some people kind of externalize them. So because it's so easy for some of us to feel like, if I'm feeling shame, I am shame. If that makes sense, like the totality of my entire being is shame in this moment. And is it? Is that the totality of your entire being and your entire experience?

But the more that we can possibly choose to identify it, look at it, be with it, bring in that master teacher of that curiosity around it. The more we're better able to not identify with it as my entire self, if that makes sense. It does, I mean. It's out here now. Right, and I know you've done this work in prison, so you've done it with people who probably be eating and shame on their regular. Shame in high, high, high terror, even beyond anxiety, just straight up terror, because those individuals were about to be released back into society.

So going back into society and working with these inmates who were incarcerated, some of them for multiple years, some of them shorter time. But yeah, it was like going into this foreign world coming back into society. It was that shameful, that difficult and that terrorizing. Like, oh my God, we don't know what's going to happen to us. Stay tuned more of our conversation is on the way after this. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on Page Six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellasai.

And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wundery's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feuds say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them.

It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. Let me just give back to you for a second, because you spoke a little bit with Samuel one of our producers before you came on the show, and you had some personal stories about encountering bias out in the world and how you handled it internally.

Do you want to pick one of them at random and talk a little bit about it as a case study for using self-compassion? Sure. There's one that I shared with Samuel that I think was, I've got a litany of them, but I will share this one that I think really would help your listeners understand how I handled it or how I managed it at that time, how I related to it actually. And it was Thanksgiving about two years ago. I was out trying to get the smoke turkey for my family. In Kansas, in Kansas City. And there was a store that just sells, you know, meats and all of that.

So it's very popular. People line up outside the space, you know, to get in because it's so many of us right before Thanksgiving. And the parking was just a mess. It was all over. And then I got out, got in the line. It was probably about 30 people in front of me. And then all of a sudden, I heard this man who appeared to be Caucasian and a man yelling and screaming at the top of his voice. And then I heard him just yelling the inward. And he was yelling the inward at a woman who was just a few feet from him, who was trying to get into the line and he's standing off here on the side. And I turned around and I thought, oh my God, and the woman appeared to be of color.

And I thought, oh my God, does this person have a gun? Or, you know, what is this person going to do? And then this woman, she didn't say anything. She was trying to get away. She was just moving away toward the line, the rest of us in the line. And the man's just going off, just totally irate, screaming at the top of his lungs.

And he kept saying the inward, over and over and over and over. And so the woman gets into the line and I got out of line and I went toward her because the man finally walked away, thank God. And I said, are you okay? Are you okay, my goodness? I said, it was horrible, horrible.

And I remember she looked at me and she said, you know what, I'm okay. She said, I was just afraid that he was going to maybe hit me, shoot me, something else. She said, I'm okay. She said I was just afraid that he was gonna maybe hit me shoot me something else She said I'm okay. She said, you know, sometimes we just have to be the bigger person So that was one part. Yes, and then the I raised my eyebrows So she that's why she said yes, and then the people in the line I kind of looked at them And I just noticed no one else but me came over to that woman and said anything. Were there any people of color on the line? Not to my knowledge, not visibly at least. And they all just kind of looked and turned, but not one person, but myself came over to check on that woman. And so, oh God, I talk about somatic experience. I felt angry, I felt frustrated, I felt sad. I thought, gosh,

just spewing out this hate again just because this woman was trying to get into the line, but then she, I forgot to say this part, she did say she was trying to get into the line, but then I forgot to say this part. She did say she was trying to pull into a parking spot and he wanted the parking spot. So he jumps out the car and then that's why he started calling her the end word. And that was a reflection on me. Because if he's calling her the end word, he's calling, I feel like median word.

So I didn't do it right off the bat because I wanted to make sure she was okay. So I stood there for a while. And I was so upset and so angry. I couldn't even stand in the line. Not just her reaction, the woman's reaction, but the other people in the line, their non-reactivity of any sort, or even trying to lend support or understanding or whatever. It was almost like, I don't know if this is what they were experiencing, but it was almost like, oh, that's trouble, I got to stay away from it, like fear just maybe clicked in for

them. But when I got my car, because I had to leave, when I got my car, from it like fear just maybe Clicked in for them, but I when I got my car because I had to leave when I got my car You didn't get your turkey. Nope. Nope. I couldn't at that point. It was just too overwhelming the emotion so I got my car and I was just feeling my body and I was breathing initially because one of the practices for mindful self-compassion is called affectionate breathing and it's a way of as you take in a breath to consider that sensation, that soothing, nurturing, protecting part, like you're breathing it in. And I did that.

And then I just remember I couldn't even think until I got home. And then I didn't stroke my arm that day. I just remember just going through this whole differentiation between what that man was saying in the hate that he was spewing out and myself. It was a very protecting part of me and also feeling and feeling like sending that to the the woman who actually experienced it to. Tell me more about the practice of the differentiation you referenced there. When I was saying to you before about is this my truth of the world? That wasn't my truth and also I mean you are not an N word is that where you're right?

Right, right, right. That's that's a social again construction that was outside it was externalized for me, not just in terms of the narrative that was created, but mentally, physically, somatically, psychologically, etc. So this sounds like a sort of a cognitive exercise of sort of a contemplative exercise where you're thinking, how can this socially constructed concept of the N word apply to me because if we look inside we're all sort of infinite and mysterious. Yes, I mean it definitely was for me. It was it was somatic. It was emotional because of identifying my emotions because I said, you know, I'm very angry. I was, I was just totally living. And it was also cognitive. I was mindful of what I was thinking in that moment,

but then bringing in what I needed, and what I needed at that time was the differentiation. That's what I needed. As opposed to identifying with it and going, oh my God, you know this This this is bad, you know This is me and people think I'm that and you get what I'm saying because that

Narrative would be paralyzing I would imagine exactly Exactly. How do you go to work the next day exactly and then some people might do that more consciously like I did because There was a time where I didn't have those skills. And back at that time, I grappled with it. I would just maybe hold the anger and try to go to work. But still kind of holding this anger and knowing that in order to navigate my world and with the social world and employment systems and so on, that you had to go ahead and just kind of suck it up and go on. You get, does that make sense? It does, but let me ask you a question if I'm not cutting off mid-thought.

Okay. I can imagine somebody in the audience saying, well, isn't anger truly what's warranted here? Yeah, the self-compassion sounds nice and you can make yourself feel better, but don't we need to be pounding the table or making signs or doing sit-ins to stop the madness? Yes, yes, and. Yes, we do need to be doing that. And I think that's one of the reasons why the anger does arise. But it also says that,

I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this. Part of compassion doesn't mean that there isn't action. I've talked about this in the show before. There is such a thing as misunderstanding, compassion to knock you into sort of passivity. Another misunderstanding would be that you need to go and hug all of your enemies like you need to go give. Be so compare.

I mean, perhaps there's a time and place where it would be appropriate for you to have compassion for the man who's young and word on the street. I mean, perhaps there's a time and place where it would be appropriate for you to have compassion for the man who's yelling the N word on the street. I don't know, that's not for me to say. But to just reflexively go gush compassion all over him, that's what the Tibetans would call idiot compassion. But there is also, and I think this is what you're vectoring toward, something called fierce compassion.

Yes, exactly, exactly. And that would be part of that protecting, because like I said, in that moment, even with the differentiation, I feel like that was protecting me, as well, making a boundary between other and self. And it doesn't mean that because that happened that I'm just going to take my anger and go,

oh, okay, well, that had no meaning really just suck that up, suppress that, and keep going on. It doesn't mean that. It means that, yeah, that's a master teacher again. What is that teaching me about my anger? What might be the meaning of that anger? How might I navigate that anger beyond what I did in that moment? You know, that's the reason why I'm sitting here and talking to you right now. It is because of my post pre-excuse me, pre-ent, and let me rephrase that is because of all my other experiences of being microaggressed,

biases, discrimination that I have experienced, and others in my environment as well as listening to people's stories in therapy, listening to my students, teaching diversity classes, teaching diversity out in the community, working with a lot of different people that I have learned, yes, there's a lot of anger I have experienced, but I'm taking that anger and the way I'm making meaning of so-called anger is to bring in for the greater good.

To do what I'm doing right now is to talk about these issues and share what might be useful for some people. I mean, another salutary effect I can imagine of self-compassion or just compassion generally in this context is that, yeah, it is important for all of us to do something in the world that makes it better and more fair, but do you want to be operating fully out of a space of anger, or do you want to be operating more out of a sort of fierce protector mode or a desire to help mode. Because the anger fuel seems to me to be, I don't know, a little bit more high in toxicity.

Yeah, and I'm certainly not saying that I'm doing what I'm doing because I'm angry. No, no, right now. I'm trying to amplify your point, right? Okay, yeah. Yeah, the anger is the, is the cue in the signal that something needs to be done.

Right, right. But I, what I'm hearing from you or what I was perhaps not so skillfully trying to reflect back to you is that, yeah, the anger is there, but that's not the only fuel you're using to move forward. Yes, exactly, yes. And that's where the only fuel you're using to move forward. Yes, exactly. Yes.

And that's where self-compassion sounds to me like he's helpful because you can, it's not just mindless self-suthing so that you can pretend the world is perfect. It's actually taking care of yourself so that you're better armed to go out and do, better, you know, armored to go out and do the work you need to do in order to be make a positive change. Yes, it's really an inner resource. Yes. An inner resource that once one practices that, it gives the opportunity to use that for oneself. Because at the end of the day, the only person that we can really change, manage completely

in many ways, in some ways we can't. But in general, it's just ourselves. So instead of depending upon some external system to always be there for us to help us in terms of boundaries, because I gave the example of creating a boundary for ourselves, appropriate boundaries, because boundaries, that's a big deal in dynamics and human dynamics that they can be very fluid to fluid for some people. And other times it's just too structured, too strong.

So to bring that awareness in of how we providing for ourselves, what we really need, what we really need, and not having the dependence upon other systems to fill me up and do what I need to do all the time. Not saying that we still don't need other people for support, because obviously we do. We're not just totally alone in the human world, but there needs to be this internal sense of resource and really self-leadership in some ways. I know we don't really use that term

in mindful self-compassion, but for me, I kind of see it as part of that. Leading myself, being able to get to know myself, get to know my emotions, get to identify my emotions, get to be able to be more curious about what might that mean when those emotions arise or when I have that somatic experience connected to the emotions. And then what do I need in this moment? Because sometimes you can't go to somebody else all the time to say, okay, let me tell you my story or whatever. Sometimes we just have to be with it.

And sometimes we may need to be with it. And then kind of unpack those emotions and then just bringing more, instead of beating ourselves up about it, about feeling shame, about feeling guilt, about feeling grief or loss or whatever, to just bring in some of those resources that we can bring to ourselves, to help us relate to those emotions in a different way, form a new relationship that is not just the, I heard you talk about the masculine kind of thing, but that's not just the, oh, it's so sweet and nice, but also that strength, that resilience part that I believe we all really have anyway, but it just gets beaten down, it gets covered up by life a lot of times. And so it's

buried. So to be able to connect to that part, that internal part of us, that really is resilient, that really is strong, that really is empowered. That's what I feel that it has done for me and what it could possibly do for many other people too. Let me ask you a question. Not sure this is a good idea, but since we've talked about self-compassion here, I wanna pivot to something else that I'm,

I'll just see what your reaction is. I spent a lot of time, primarily because I'm just curious person, but also I'm a journalist. So I try to spend a lot of time sort of listening to podcasts or reading widely across the ideological spectrum. And you've used a lot of terms, microaggression, intersectionality, oppression. You didn't use the term white supremacy, but that's also used a lot in these circles. That there are certain schools of thought who have a negative reaction to some of this stuff. And it's not just white people. I mean, there are people of color I'm thinking of like John McWhorter or Glenn Larry, who are both African-American men, who've written a lot about these issues, who say, my understanding

of the point of view is that, yes, racism is real, but slavery was a long time ago, Jim Crow was a long time ago, and that certain amounts of dwelling on this stuff creates a victim mentality and is, as I've heard them describe it as kind of a new religion in some ways. So I just, I'm just curious, I've never had a chance to discuss this with anybody who disagrees, I just hear it on a podcast and then I don't know what to do with it. So what do you make of this school of thought?

Well, I do feel as though that there are some people who have sociocultural identities that are non-dominant that concur with what you just said. And the fear too that it will be in this kind of marginalized identity, it's like, oh, you know, we have had enough of that. Yes, it was in slavery. And I don't feel that way internally. I don't feel marginalized.

I don't feel oppressed whatsoever. So, yeah, I don't want that label on me. I don't want to... I don't want other people to think that that's what I am supporting this, as you said, victim mentality. Yeah, I mean, I hope I'm not quoting them incorrectly, but it's something I believe I've heard from one or both of them is like, that's not black power. A power, you know, the power, black power would be saying, wouldn't be dwelling so much in what's been done to us. Again, I'm not, this is me restating skillfully or not. Their view is not endorsement of their view.

I'm just curious, because I don't really know what to think. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Well, I think one thing that needs to be cleared around that is there is a reality that the history did cause a huge effect in terms of if we're going to focus on race in terms of racial oppression and racial injustice. And it really wasn't that long ago when it happened. You know, you think about it. Obviously, there's been lots of wonderful changes. I probably wouldn't be sitting here right now. Those people that you mentioned probably wouldn't have their jobs. If it hadn't been for all of the civil rights, all the changes, all the violence, unfortunately, that went on in the past. But the issue is there are many people who still have a lot of oppression that identify

that way and are experiencing that. And then when you look at, in particular, not so much the interpersonal, but if you look at the institutional aspect, I mean, when you think about the prison population, I mean, who's in prison? Disproportionately Latinos in African-Americans. Exactly. And when I went into the prison in Missouri and helped those individuals with our mindfulness practices. And some of my other colleagues did that as well. I didn't know who was gonna show up in the room.

The only thing I knew identity-wise was that they all identified as male. But that's the only thing I knew. But when I looked in this space, it was about starting off 20 people, at least externally. It appeared as though that statistic that you just mentioned, that's what I saw in the space.

So there's still, systemically and structurally, some racism and oppression that's still playing out today, including classism. I don't think it's just, you know, part of racism involves gender identity as well as class identity too, and the impact when you take race, class, and gender, and you cross those three together. Income, wealth, education disparities? Yes, exactly. So that, then, you know, I'm talking to the choir saying these things to you, Dan, but immigration issues,

can we not see the racism, the classism embedded in those issues like with people immigrating over from Mexico in particular. And we've had other populations that have had their challenges around immigration. That's always been a big issue in the United States of America. And always to me, this conflict between us and them, and who is really American and who is not. Still grappling over that. Still having this big micro challenge around identity for our own culture.

And so that in education, I mean, education is a huge institution where racism still plays out to this day. Because we know that you're going to have better resources, you're going to have more accessibility to iPads and all that other kind of wonderful stuff that we have for kids in lower ed in this day and age when they are in certain neighborhoods and certain school districts and other school districts. There's definitely barriers and disparities. And many of the who are those people,

many of those people also are people who are low income as well as people of color. So those are just some examples. So my point is because of those intersections of identity, it can be what's, I'm looking for the word here that I want to express, but basically it can be less of a feeling of victimization and more of that sense of, you know, I don't feel that anymore. That's over for me. That racism thing. That's over for me, that racism thing, that's over for me. When some people who are of color have actually been able to, you know, have that American dream kind of thing, have the job, live in nice house, car, blah, blah, blah, etc., all

of that. So they have that so-called image of American dream. And then they work in a more integrated system. They're accepted in those systems. They're valued in those systems. So that's for them, but that shows you the impact of intersectionality, too, because they're still diversity and diversity.

So not all people of color are the same, feel the same, see the same, and have the same intersections of identity. But there are many people and the people at the bottom unfortunately are still struggling to get out and to even think that they could move to some kind of American dream. And as a person of color myself, I mean, I have privileges of being a professor, I have privileges of being a therapist, I have privileges of being able body,

I have privileges too, and I have to be conscious of those. But part of my advocacy and social justice effort is to close off just because I have. This is for me. It's not to criticize anybody else. There's still some of us that are suffering. And what are we to do? Just discard them, go, oh, okay, well, these people are okay. We're on this side. So I'm not going to look back at the others of us that need to come or need help or need support. So I am very adamant about doing what I can

to support those individuals as well. And that's why I am still working hard like with the prison population. They are at risk vulnerable population and they're predominantly people of color. Other populations, some of the kids in the at-risk school districts who are in poverty, again, mostly kids of color, trying to help them. And they're also our future.

Oh my God, they're also our future. So for me, that is why I am sitting here today talking with you. And it is why I want to bring in as much compassion for other people as well as myself. Because compassion really means with suffering. That word means that. With suffering. Can you be with suffering? And can I be with my own suffering?

And still be present for those who are suffering. Can you be with suffering? And can I be with my own suffering? And still be present for those who are suffering. So that is really my my passion and my intention. And for those people who are of color or other identities that feel like I don't want to be victimized, I mean, I understand it. I'm not marginalized because we've been through enough. Why would you want to connect to anything that you perceive as possibly marginalizing you as a group? But you got to remember that diversity and diversity

makes a difference and can't generalize an entire group into their single story of what that group is like either. Well, I think you ended it on an early, uncontroversial note here, which is the development of and practice of compassion is a really positive thing. Ironically, it can be, it can make, even though it's about helping other people, it can make your life much better and more meaningful in the process. And that includes compassion for yourself because you aren't separate. Just a quick note, since we've been talking a lot about the experience of folks in non-dominant groups,

we've also spoken about the experience of people, and I've been speaking more from experience about the experience of people in dominant groups. If you are like me and interested in thinking more about these issues, I recommend a podcast. It's called Scene on Radio. They've done two big series. So yeah, you look up Scene on Radio wherever you're podcasts. They've done two huge series. One is called Scene White, which is about whiteness, which a lot of people who are white don't

think about whiteness much, and I found it to be a revelation. Every person of color I shared it with said this is the most obvious thing I've ever heard. Every white person I shared it with said, oh my god, this is incredible. So that's one thing. They also did a series after seeing white called Men, which is a deep dive into maleness, which I found to be quite interesting. So just a couple of resources, if you want to keep thinking about these issues. Speaking of resources, Cindy, can you plug everything you've got?

Like how can we learn more about you? Have you written anything? Do you have a website? Do you have social media? Anything we can do to learn more about you. I appreciate that Dan. I work also as a psychotherapist and my website. I work primarily with people in middle age, but I also work with younger people.

I specialize in trauma as well as chronic stress, anxiety, depression. So really on the stress continuum, that's my specialty across the board. Done a lot of work with that. And I bring in a non-oppressive open style, as well as a trauma-sensitive style too. So that website is midlifeatesecounseling.com and then the other system that I work with,

I teach some meditation mindfulness classes in the Kansas City area and it's called Midwest Alliance for Mindfulness and the website is www.mindfulness-aliance.com. the website is www.minfulness-aliance.com. If you're interested in any mindfulness classes, we have some online as well as in-person in our particular organization of all types. Thank you.

Thank you. What's the upper range of middle age? Am I still... When do I cross over and just turn your season? Well, you know... How 48? How much time do I have? Well, you have some time.

I do. Yes you do. Where is middle age end? Middle age is... It keeps creeping up. Okay. You know, it's the new whatever keeps going. Yeah.

But the research says it... But there's some variability in that as well. It's gone up to about 60. and then some will even say 65, and I don't know if that's based on social security or something, but- I have a little time. You do have some time. Okay. All right.

That's, that's, I feel like that was an act of compassion. It was a pleasure just didn't talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dan. It was a pleasure to talk with you too, and I appreciate this opportunity to share some of this as well. My experience and my interest in helping other people, and I hope it helps your listeners. Big thanks to Sydney again for coming on. As mentioned in the introduction, she sent us

a piece of audio of her speaking for about five to six minutes about a really remarkable development in a courtroom in Dallas this week, where we saw a young man named former police officer named Amber Geiger. Amber Geiger shot and killed Brant John's older brother, both of them John, as he was sitting alone in his apartment. Amber Geiger, her story is that she walked into both of John's apartment, thinking it was her apartment, and then saw this man in what she thought was her apartment, and she shot and killed him. She was convicted of murder last week, sentenced to ten years in prison the fact that she only got ten years was controversial in many circles

and yet uh... both of john's younger brother decided to give her a hug and to to forgive her uh... some people have criticized young brant john for for giving this hug and uh... so so say you want went away in on that. Here she is.

You know, despite the long disturbing history of white police officers shooting and killing on Black men and some Black women, for me the sheer image of Brant and Amber, earnestly and emotionally embracing one another, was a visual expression and symbol of what we all need to do in this country in order to reconcile and heal. The deep, historical wounds and suffering of racism and other types of social traumas. I feel that we need to seriously acknowledge and embrace our social suffering, as well as our sense of common humanity rather than maintaining a sense of disconnection, divisiveness, and the pain of this us versus them, social, cultural

relationship. I feel brand and ambers embrace actually reflected the social and personal journey. We all need to take as well as the actual outcome, the goal. These two people are from different cultural worlds, but they met at the intersection of suffering, which placed them at the crossroads of participating in common humanity that we all experience in terms of pain, suffering, imperfection, and loss in this life. Yet we attempt to disconnect and confine one another based on false socially constructed categories and narratives. Brant John bravely constructed the truth of who we are, the truth that we are interconnected and actually far more similar than different.

To me he appeared to really tune into his own pain and grief rather than resisting it or holding on with bitterness or ignoring his pain and grief, a way of truly being with his own suffering compassionately, self-compassionately. The practice of mindful self-compassion actually supports this experience of opening and accepting the reality of our pain and imperfection. I feel that the more that we're able to fully open and embrace our pain and suffering, the more we can respond to it compassionately. And therefore, open up to the suffering and struggling and imperfection of those who have heard us.

Because at the end of the day, in many ways, they are just like us. Complex human beings navigating this journey we call life. I think that we all have the same basic needs for safety and love, compassion, kindness, connection. We want to belong, we want to be able to be seen and heard, valued. Our mistakes, wrongdoings, harm toward others, and sometimes toward ourselves. A lot of that is based from many complicated factors and forces that don't always seem apparent to others, and sometimes I don't feel like they're very apparent to ourselves. And in terms of forgiveness, to extend that toward others who have harmed us, and to extend that toward ourselves as well, for making our mistakes or missteps actually requires to me a practice of meeting certain experiences that are tough, really tough, such as revenge, righteousness, resistance,

some of those difficult emotions like shame and guilt that we can turn toward ourselves, to meet those with compassion and remembering that sense of common humanity that we aren't alone in our suffering. And loving kindness to foster social as well as personal reconciliation and healing. So, as Branjant said so wisely, and with peace and grace, I loved what he said, this particular quote, he said, this is what you have to do to set yourself free. And I truly believe that. I feel this was actually a social invitation to both social oppressors and for the oppressed. Thank you. Thanks again to Sydney for that really indelible moment in that courtroom in Dallas Before we close let's do some voicemails. Here's number one. Hi, I'm Amy's Bob. I live in Chicago

We are and I have been practicing here for 15 years and I have been a meditator for about a third of that time particularly in a mindfulness practice about a third of that time, particularly in a mindfulness practice. My question is based in the whole idea of mindfulness, and as a working definition that mindfulness is paying attention on purpose and a non-judgmentally form, in a way that kind of gains understanding and wisdom and kind of gives that back to the world. It's something that I've been working with for a couple of years now, and particularly in say a compassionate setting, or compassionate type

of meditation practice, or something that is trying to gain awareness and get my connection to the world at a much greater space. It's something that I've never worked with for quite some time. I guess what my question is, I don't necessarily see that concept being pervasive throughout society and I find it to be not just frustrating but a little bit maddening, especially when you look at it from the top-down of where our leaders and our

political police systems and the way that our media is kind of giving us information in a very unmindful way. And I'm wondering what your position would be in terms of how you deal with that in your head when you're trying to be mindful and you see all these examples all around you that are for a little better term unmindful. Keep up the great work. I love the podcast, I love the books, I love everything that happens about ten percent happier in the way in which the people in the masses because to me that really is mindful and uh...

that's really the way that we need to kind of change society one little mind at the time thanks again and i'll talk to you thanks bob and that last thing you said about one little mind at a time. Thanks again and I'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye. Thanks, Bob. And that last thing you said about one little mind at a time, I want to get back to that. But you asked, if I heard you correctly, how do I deal when I look around and see this howling sea of mindlessness everywhere, not only in the media,

in Washington, but just in other human beings who cross my path. And I can tell you, at first, my response was not helpful, which was just like being suffused with strong waves of self-righteousness. And I'd see somebody else going ape crap. That's not the way I would usually say it, but this is a Disney show at the airport counter, at the counter at an airport or something like that. I would, you know, sort of feel superior. That's not something I would recommend. Over time, though, I think I've just developed a level of understanding that just sees it from a wider perspective that, you know, I got lucky in that I was able to, you know, I displayed epic streaks, years long uninterrupted streaks of mindlessness in my life,

and then I, my late 30s stumbled upon meditation and was able to tune up my own mind in a way that reduced the mindlessness marginally, but not entirely by any means. And so just understanding that they're the levels of confusion and greed and you know lust and hatred, they were unreally deep, not only in other people, but in me. I think that helps me create some sort of empathy and compassion for people who I see behaving in ways that are not really helpful. That said, I don't think it's enough

to have a sort of a cold, clinical sense of perspective. It also is true that it sucks to see people suffer as a consequence of other people's mindlessness or hatred. As a journalist, I'm on the front lines of man's inhumanity to man. I may have mentioned before just a moment that comes up for me, not infrequently, of being in aca polco, which, you know, we all associate with images of relaxation and glamour by the seaside, but in fact it's become quite a crime-ridden community and I went down to do some reporting there for nightline in the last year or so

and I remember one night my crew and I came upon a cooler on the side of the road and inside that cooler was a human head. So that my line of work, that is the type of thing we run across. And so that provokes all sorts of feelings. So how do I deal with it? I think one is to go back to the very end of your question that we do have agency when it comes to our own mind. And your happiness has global consequences.

If you're working on your happiness, I have real conviction here. If you're working on your own happiness, if you're training your own mind, managing your own ego, that has ripple effects. It's not going to solve everything, but it certainly has ripple effects because everybody who crosses your path on a good day or in a good moment is going to feel whether they're aware of it or not, some difference from you and that can continue to ripple out. So one thing is just the conviction in the face of all of the mindlessness out in the world, a doubling down on my conviction that I can and should work on myself.

The other is that you can go out and try to actively help other people. And that can take millions of forms, volunteering, simply deciding to be kinder to your coworkers or more generous around the office, upping your game as a parent, upping your game as a child of your parents if they happen to be aging. There are lots of ways that you can empower yourself to fix things locally even though you can't necessarily go down and

make sure that everybody in Congress and in the White House behaves better. Also, to recognize that seeing all of this mindlessness, seeing the suffering that is happening in the world is painful for you, and that you need to take care of yourself here. Now I'm talking about something different from training your own mind, although they are, of course, in many ways, the exact same thing,

but to take care of yourself in the face of this suffering, my colleague Ray Hausman, who we ran this question by, who's Ray is the very experienced meditator. She's head of the coaches who work for 10% happier, every user of the 10% happier app gets a coach and raised the boss there. Her response was that when she sees the injustice in the world, she knows that she needs to not only do something about it to the best of her ability to do something about the injustice to be a positive player, but also that she needs to take care of herself. And for her, she calls her way of dealing with that embodied.

In other words, she notices, because she's mindful enough, that it actually hurts in the body when you feel bad. And that what we do as meditators is this counter intuitive thing of tuning into that rather than letting it drive us blindly. You tune into the pain you're feeling in your mind and your body and that allows it hopefully to pass. And then you can make decisions as she says, take action from a clearer place once you've taken the time to do this counterintuitive thing of tuning in and seeing the pain of your experience in the face of the aforementioned epidemic of mindlessness, which by the way is not anything new. Bob, thanks for that question. Here's voicemail number two.

Hi, my name's Karen. I'm a podcast insider. I've been practicing and studying on my own for a few years, taking some online classes, meditating with teachers online on my own, reading, talking with friends, et cetera. I enjoy meditation on the flying in the moment. My question's about being with the practice outside of it. My life is like a retreat. I'm retired and mostly on my own, some close friends, a partner, and an old dog, noble

silence, and plenty of time to appreciate all that is makes up most of my day. But as time goes on, I'm finding it harder and harder to go into the world of people and noise and rushing in what can feel like chaos. I practice by putting myself into those situations, but it's getting harder and harder over the years. I see that as my practice, and I'm doing it, but I'm grasping for a breakthrough. I don't know what to do, what do you suggest? Thank you. All right, I'll give you my take. And I agreed to take this question in particular, not because I think that Karen, that your situation is super common.

By the way, I don't think it's so rare that you're a... I don't mean to portray it as so rare that you should feel badly about it. I mean, just that most people don't have the luxury to have their life that is like a retreat. Many of us are deeply engaged with the world whether we want to or not. And so I do have some thoughts about the specifics of your situation, but the real reason why I wanted to take this question was because it got me thinking about something that I've been writing about in this book that I've been writing for a while and probably will continue to write for a while since I'm a slow writer about compassion. Which is, you know, when I, I've talked before about how I, I got a 360 review of people in my life, gave me candid, pretty brutal feedback on how I'm doing,

and I sent the review to my friend Dr. Mark Epstein, as a bit on the show a couple times, Buddhist psychiatrist, written a bunch of beautiful books. And he replied, well, we had a long conversation about it subsequently. But his initial response came via email and he said something to the effect of, you know, think you've fallen into it. Part of what's going on here is you've fallen into a trap of working on meditation as this solitary thing, this thing that you're doing in your own mind as opposed to a relational thing or something that you're primarily using to navigate the

world of other human beings more effectively and happily. And I just think that's worth flacking because I don't think I'm the only person who falls into this trap. And I'm not sure that's exactly what's happening for you, Karen, but it may be. And I think it may be happening for many listeners that you think of meditation as something you're hoping to get better at on the cushion. But while that is important, the technical aspects of meditation, as the great meditation teacher Sharon Salisberg has said, we don't meditate to be better meditators.

We meditate to be better at life, to be better human beings. And I think that can get lost here. And I am increasingly of the view that where the rubber hits the road is the quality of our relationships. And don't, I mean, that can sound a little sappy, but let me just put it in scientific evolutionary terms. We evolved to, we're deeply intensely social creatures. We achieved this level of supremacy on the planet because we could work together to take down animals and large animals that we couldn't take down on our own and eat them.

And cooperative tribes had an advantage, according to Darwin. A big advantage. And loneliness, as I've said on the show before, loneliness was fatal. A lonely person on the savannah was a dead one. So we need these relationships and it's not just because, you know, I've read chicken soup for the soul, which I haven't read. So I don't even know if that's a fair indication, but you know what I'm saying. It's not just some ooey gooey sentiment. It's actually based in the how we're built as animals. Anyway, as to your situation, Karen, by the way, thank you for being a podcast insider. We really value the insight that hundreds of you give us on every show we do. So thank you. One thing, I really,

I think you're doing something smart. You said you were putting yourself in situations where there was noise and rushing and people around, but you noticed that it's getting harder. My guess is that it may be useful to continue putting yourself in those situations and to bring your meditation practice to bear, to allow yourself to ride the pain, whatever pain, or discomfort, or restlessness, or agitation, or a version arises online at the supermarket, or at a crowded restaurant restaurant or at a party that you had second

thoughts about attending, et cetera, et cetera. And see what happens. That seems like a worthy experiment to not only practice by putting yourself in the situation, but practice by practicing mindfulness in the situation. The other thing is, either maybe ways to structure interactions with people in the world that are just unquestionably constructive rather than going out into intervening situations like I listed before about the supermarket or a crowded restaurant. What about, and this stuff tells with the advice I was giving Bob, what about taking some

agency, this enobling move of actively engaging with other people to be of use, like volunteering? Lots of opportunities to volunteer, no matter what kind of quiet community you live in. I think there is a ton of evidence. Again, I like to fall back on science rather than sentiment just because I think for certain folks that often lands better, lots of evidence that people who volunteer are happier and healthier. So just a couple of thoughts.

I don't know your situation well enough to really help you with the breakthrough that you're grasping for, but a couple of thoughts on ways that you can experiment with your current predicament. Thank you, Karen. A few other people to thank as I like to do at the end of every podcast. Ryan Kessler, Samuel Johns, Grace Livingston, Lauren Hartzog, and Tiffany O'Mohundra, who I've forgotten to thank on many of these recent podcasts, Tiffany. Sorry about that.

You're on my list now permanently. Be on the lookout later this week for the bonus meditation from Jess Mori. It's called see yourself compassionately. That's going to post in the feed in a couple of days. And then coming next Wednesday, Kristen Neff was really sort of the academic godmother of self-compassion. That's a great, great episode. For now, take it easy, and I'll see you soon.

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