Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 251: The Dalai Lama's Advice for Right Now

Episode Date: May 27, 2020

How do we handle pandemic-induced anxiety or grief? What does a spiritual guru do to relax while on lockdown? We put those questions - and more - to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The man needs little introduction. He's the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people, and a global cultural icon who has been featured in an Apple ad, a Martin Scorsese biopic, and in a classic Bill Murray scene from Caddyshack. We spoke to His Holiness from his home in Dharamsala, India. Also on the line: Richard Davidson from the Center for Healthy Minds at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Richie (that's what everyone calls him) is an old friend of the Dalai Lama's. They’ve been collaborating for decades on scientific research into the effects of meditation on the brain. After we hear from the Dalai Lama - who makes a series of surprising statements - we'll unpack it all in a separate convo with Richie. Where to find The Dalai Lama online: Website: https://www.dalailama.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/DalaiLama Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DalaiLama Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dalailama/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/gyalwarinpoche Ten Percent Happier Pandemic Resilience Challenge: On June 10, we're launching the Pandemic Resilience Challenge: a free 21 day meditation challenge to help all of us cope with the anxiety, uncertainty, loneliness, boredom and all the other fun emotions we're experiencing during this pandemic. To join the waitlist and receive updates, visit https://tenpercent.com/challenge. Where to find Richie Davidson online: Healthy Minds Innovations // https://hminnovations.org/hmi/about Center for Healthy Minds // https://centerhealthyminds.org/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/healthyminds Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/centerforhealthyminds/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/healthy.mind Additional Resources: Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide We want to deeply thank and recognize healthcare workers, teachers, warehouse workers, grocery and food delivery workers for the essential role that they play in our lives. For FREE access to the app and hundreds of meditations and resources visit https://tenpercent.com/care Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/the-dalai-lama-251 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. Hey y'all is your girl show. Oh, I'm Dan Harris. to baby this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Oh, I'm Dan Harris. Welcome to APK News. Oh, okay, but can I use the microphone? Just going to record something. Can you sit quietly for a second? Sure.

Okay. Hey guys, before we start a quick announcement, by popular demand, we're going to run another meditation challenge. A lot of you have asked us for this. We are on June 10th launching what we're calling the pandemic resilience challenge. It's a free 21 day meditation challenge. The goal here is to help all of us cope with the anxiety on certain de-feared loneliness, boredom, and other super fun emotions. We've all been mainlining during this pandemic. Every day you'll get a short video followed by a free guided meditation to help you

establish or to restart your meditation habit. You can do the solo or you can invite your friends and family and see one another's progress. The challenge, as I said, is going to start on June 10th to join the wait list and to receive updates, visit 10% dot com slash challenge. That's 10% one word all spelled out dot com slash challenge. We'll put a link in the show notes. All right, let's start the show. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

That is the trademark giggle of his holiness, the Dalai Lama. He's laughing as his attendance put a microphone on him for this interview. The Dalai Lama of course needs very little introduction. He's the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people and a global cultural icon who's been featured in an Apple ad, a Martin Scorsese biopic, and in one of my favorite Bill Murray scenes from Caddy Shack. And I say, hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know? And he says, oh, uh, it won't be any money.

But when you die on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness. So I got that going. I wanted to speak to him for obvious reasons. We're in the middle of this rolling dumpster fire with the coronavirus, and I thought his holiness would have some useful advice about handling anxiety and grief. He, as you will hear, did not disappoint.

By way of background, we did this interview, which we'll be going up on this podcast plus various ABC news platforms, such as Nightline and Good Morning America. We did the interview late Sunday night. It was 10.30 p.m. in New York, where my colleagues and I from nightline were filming on the 13th floor of the ABC News headquarters.

And it was eight o'clock in the morning in Durham, Sala, India. That is where the Dalai Lama lives. They're nine and a half hours ahead. His staffers told us they wanted to do the interview first thing in the morning, because that's when his holiness, who is 84 years old old would be most alert.

As it happened his holiness actually showed up early for the interview. I had gone downstairs on the orders of my producer Odeswase getting some makeup applied. She said I looked a little sweaty. So when I finally showed up the Dalai Lama was actually having a chat with my friend Richard Davidson who was also joining us on this zoom connection. Good morning. Good morning. So good to see you.

Just a quick word about Richie because he's going to play an important part of this podcast. Everybody calls him Richie by the way, even though his full name is Richard. He's one of America's leading neuroscientists. He runs the center for healthy minds at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. He's worked really closely with his holiness for years, studying what meditation does to the brain. They're really good friends and Richie was instrumental in helping me land this interview, so I asked him to join which he did from his home in Madison. For all this, my wife came to say hello to you.

And hello, you all of this! Thank you. You're holding this. How is your health? Health? I think in order to know my health, we have to fight. So wait a minute. Did the Dalai Lama just challenge an eminent neuroscientist to a fight? I think he did.

In fact, that was just one of many surprising comments that the Dalai Lama made during the course of this interview. Because there are so many interesting moments here and because there's a bunch of stuff that requires a little bit of extra context, I'm going to do something unusual during this podcast. I'll be dropping in once in a while, X-Post Factor, to provide a little handholding to you, the listener. And at the end, we're actually going to dial up Richie Davidson to do a full post-mortem. That said, back to the Dalai Lama and Richie doing their pre-show banter here. In any way,

time always moving and each minute person become older, but my brain, as you know, quite good. Very good. And this is where I finally arrived and joined the conversation. Hello, your holiness. Hi. Yes.

Thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. I just wanted to first say, thank you. I have interviewed you a couple of times before and it's had a big impact on my life in particular. Your discussion of wise selfishness has had a real impact on my inner life. So thank you in advance for doing this. So I'd love to start just by getting a sense of how are you in the middle of this outbreak, and how has this situation impacted your day-to-day life? He began by saying that he's spending a lot of time these days thinking about the state of the world.

Nowadays, we're a huge, deep, rich poor, poor people, truly sometimes facing starvation. Very sad when I saw in television, some starving people or 4 people, sometimes I cry. I think we still keep all the thinking, too much thinking, we and they, and do not consider humanity, but my nation, my community, and then fight killing, and also unfortunately my religion, they are religion. So these are secondary. We have to think about humanity.

Now, this century should be century of dialogue. Every problem we can solve through dialogue. We must think the humanity, the whole world like that. As you know right now, there are so many people on this planet and including in my country who are deeply anxious, there is an enormous amount of fear and uncertainty. Do you have any advice for how we can manage this anxiety and fear that so many of us feel in the face of this pandemic?

America, I always consider leading nation of free world, and closer relation with free world, like the European Union and Asian democratic countries, more closer relation. That also, I think mentally, I think, feel some help. If you think only America and isolate yourself, then sometimes you feel, you yourself, Then sometimes you feel you yourself something lonely. Even you say one community, you see, think same community, then feel much happier. Otherwise, you are disnaver, that never you feel a little bit distrust of fear. tu fie lillbit destusts o fie. Then that family will never be happy

and unrealistic. We are social animals. It's easy in division. Each family, their future depends their neighbor families. So now today, East, West, North, South, economically, and also education and technology. Now whole world is interdependent.

So, just a whole world, just one human family. Now, feeling of oneness and come closer. That may be some help. My own experience, when we were in Tibet, we were isolated. When we come to India as a refugee, then feeling so we are same human being, they are much happier. Hey Dan again, I'm back to highlight that little bombshell you just heard. The Dalai Lama just said he's happier as a refugee than he was when he was back into bed.

We're going to circle back to R Richie at the end of the show for more on that. But for those of you who don't know the history here, here it is in a nutshell. His holiness was recognized as the 14th Dalai Lama at the age of two. He was just a teenager in 1950 when the Chinese military moved into Tibet.

In 1959, he escaped to neighboring India where he lives in exile. Since then, he and the Tibetan people have become a global cause-seleb. So you think one way to reduce anxiety for the people in my country would be to shift our thinking away from thinking only about the United States, but towards a vision of us as part of an entire world community. Right, you see, thinking, more realistic thinking, a medical part of the world. American or not heaven.

Heaven is somewhere. That's different matter. But human, human place, we different matter. But, she would, she would please, we are saying. So, I think mentally, it's a oneness of one world. The dead, I think, make a city, some help, I feel. Your holiness, I would love to talk a little bit about meditation practices.

Meditation has made a big difference in my life personally and Richie and I have both spent a lot of time trying to educate people about the potential of meditation. As you know, during this pandemic, millions, tens of millions of people are locked down in their homes, they're scared, they're depressed, they're lonely, they're anxious. I wonder, is there a simple meditation practice that you would recommend to people during these times? Me again, just to say that before we play his answer the meditation the Dalai Lama recommends here did not sound at all simple to me but we'll let you hear the whole thing and then

we'll bring in Richie again at the end of the show to, the appropriate time is early morning. You see, usually our mind is mainly, or is it the sensorial consciousness, I, here, smell like that. So now, try to stop functioning of these sensorial consciousness. Now, stop these sensorial consciousness, then at the moment you feel something empty.

Then you still remain on that level. Then gradually you gain some experience, something empty, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, but some kind of pure, not like deep sleep. But full alert, meantime, the remain and the very nature of mind itself, not following sensorial mind. That as a beginner for meditation,

then gradually you see time, you see, try to get used, you see, that kind of experience. Then, at the beginning, few seconds, 20 seconds, or 30, then gradually, one minute, five minutes, ten minutes, you can sit on that purness of mind. There you get more deeper experience about mind. So, that's, I think, the, I think worthwhile to start meditation. Then mind, not now, sensory mind, the deeper mind, then you see focusing some deeper meaning, the meaning of life. And like compassion, through reasoning,

your own well-being depends on other. So taking care about other is actually taking care of yourself. The best way to take care of your own happiness, happy life. You should take the surround or the community. So the best way to take care of your own selfish interest you should take care about others.

Selfish, think just to yourself, it's narrow, foolish, shortsighted. As much as you love yourself, take your care. And the basis of your own life depends. You should take care more than. So, altruism is the ultimate source of happiness. your own life depends. You should take care more than. So, altruism is this ultimate source of happiness. God, choose our brain. So, we must utilize our brain properly.

I've heard you describe this as wise selfishness. If we're feeling anxious or scared in our current circumstances, from what I hear, you're advising us to turn our attention outward to help other people, and that will in turn make us feel better. Yes, yes. So thinking wisdom, Yes, so thinking wisdom, then naturally. So we take care about our sort of forms, flowers, these. You see, not concerning, they also have some kind of consciousness of something. But these, now for example, we hear a lot of flowers. Flowers. See, that brings you happy, peace.

So therefore, similarly, humanity, you have to take care. So, logical. These are logical. I myself, as soon as I wake up, I always think of altruism. That really brings inner peace, inner example, some of the narrow-minded Chinese communists create a lot of suffering, but they also are brothers or sisters. Is it? One occasion is some problem. Is it one occasion? This is some problem.

Just to clarify something, his holiness is about to make a reference to a bloody Chinese government crackdown that happened in the Tibetan capital of Lasa back in 2008 when the people there rose up. As you will hear, his holiness says during during that time, he did a kind of meditation called Tong Leng, where you visualize people breathe in their suffering and then breathe out your compassion. Some sort of demonstrations take place in Pasa, and then as a result, suppression.

During that period, I visualized some of those or some of the decision maker visualized them and took their through visualisation, through imagination. We said, take their anger, their suspicion through myself. And in my compassion, forgiveness, this spirit gives them. That kind of meditation, I done. Result for the, when I then you see the situation, actually you see that thinking, that meditation,

not helping the situation to reduce or to be, but at least my mind remains peace. More concerned about certainly, but no anger, no fear, peace. So, our practice of compassion is very, very practical useful. Can you say more about the meditative practice that you just described? In 2008, you said when there was an uprising in Lassa and the Chinese communists cracked down, you described how you had a practice of breathing in the suffering of the Chinese officials and then breathing out the wish for them to be free from that suffering.

Can you describe in greater detail how we could practice that at home in this difficult time? tu certain as a your own member or human being, or particularly in your neighbor, you create some problem. Then that problem, if those trouble maker entirely wiped out, if you can, then something different, but that's impossible. So you have to leave side by side, these top of the mega. So then, or say, live side by side with suspicion, fear, anger, no use. You have to live side by side, then more compassionate mind

and some little differences forgiveness, tolerance, like that. Animal cannot do that, because no such brain. We have this brain. So some trouble maker, some country, or some sort of people, whether you like it or not, you have to live side by side. So much better with one part of this. Can I ask you a personal question?

Yes. Could you tell me what your life is like right now? Can I ask you a personal question? Yes. Could you tell me what your life is like right now? I know you've been locked down in your compound. How has your life changed during this pandemic? No change. But we actually, you see, sometimes, each year, a few weeks, sometimes a few months, completely isolate and meditation. So now, not because my volunteer, I lost now, a few months, completely isolated,

in order to project because this illness. It's very good. For me, useful, but a lot of people, you know, usually I give some lecture, some teaching from time to time. Now no longer that opportunity, but only through this kind of television, television, or

I have now long retreat, very good. And I always look television, at least one hour, two hours, like that. Then most of the time, sometimes reading, mainly meditation. I think daily my meditation about I think, or four or five hours meditation. Very useful, very helpful. When you meditate for four or five hours, what kind of practices are you doing personally? A reminder that we will unpack some of the technical meditation terms the Dalai Lama uses

here with Ritchie later, but what's most interesting to me at least is his use of so-called analytical meditation where you search for the eye, meaning you search in your mind for some core nugget of you. Of course, you can't find it. Close your eyes and look for yourself. There's nothing to find. This is per the Buddhists, a healing exercise because, as you will hear, the sense of an independent self is considered in Buddhism to be the root of all of our difficult emotions. You see, me, you see, the analytical meditation or single-pointed meditation, not analyzed as I mentioned earlier, then analytical meditation, Analyze. So, for example, as soon as the wake-up, I am thinking,

the reality, the whole, or the whole center being, including Buddha, all these, actually, if we try to find out nothing we can't find. Or merely,

Tchao Poskare. Conventionally known. Kha. Conventionally known. Kaza. Conventionally known. Conventionally, yes, without a quantum physicist, without thinking deeper level,

just appearance, you satisfy, okay. Otherwise, if you go to deeper level, reality, you can't find the Buddha himself. We cannot find myself. Beside this body, mind, where is I? Usually, you see, we feel I, with that anger, jealousy, attachment, all this come. So, where is I? This is my body, my mind So where is I? This is my body, my mind. Where is I? You can't find.

Emotion comes, anger, I. And then I feel some kind of threat. So at that time, you have strong feeling of I, independent, I, self. You see, that feeling is a self-sense, I, I, something independent. That is the basis of all negative emotions. So as soon as we wake up, I sort of analyze, where is Buddha? Nothing. Where is I? Nothing.

So that, very interesting, and then combined with that altruism, all-centered beings, too much self-centered, I, I, I, that causing a lot of problems. So that brings sympathy or concern. So combination, understanding,, nothing independent exists, nothing exists as a piece with that understanding and sense of concern. How ignorant and suffering. So, these two things, my main practice,

nothing independently exist yet, you see, on the appearances, we develop a lot of destructive emotion. So that creates a genuine sense of concern of their well-being. The only way to overcome these are to wisdom, to analytical meditation. Like that. You were talking a little bit earlier about the Chinese government. I was struck. I read an article

that you wrote in Time magazine and you said that you were praying for your brothers and sisters in China. It struck me because you have lived through so much pain yourself, you are a refugee as a consequence of Chinese military action. And now we China is playing such a controversial role on the world stage. You are still able to generate positive feelings for the Chinese after all of this? Yes, certainly Chinese, India, China, most popular to nations, overbearing population. India, free country, democracy, democratic country, China, no democracy, politically quite tight control, so to try to attain wisdom, but this will change.

Basic human nature is trying to change through political system, impossible. So, I think China will change. So, in any way, I always bring the or one billion Chinese people to see should enjoy more freedom and religious freedom, as I mentioned earlier,

sort of friendly feeling here. That gives me more inner peace like that. And now here, for a long time, to time, more and more Chinese come here, receiving teaching from me. At this point, I asked the Dalai Lama about a recent development in Tibet's relations with the Chinese. We recently passed the 25th anniversary of the disappearance of the Panchin Lama. The Panchin Lama is a key Tibetan spiritual figure who's supposed to play a central role in choosing the

next Dalai Lama. 25 years ago the current Dalai Lama recognized a young boy as the next Panchin Lama but then the Chinese government disappeared that little boy and chose their own Panchin Lama. The Chinese government disappeared that little boy and chose their own punch in llama the chinese government recently announced that uh... after twenty five years after the boy that you chose and named as the punch in llama that they're now saying twenty five years later he's graduated from college and he's

working at a job and he doesn't want to be bothered did you hear about this and did you have a reaction to that? I heard. He, I mean, a two-pension lama. One, I recognized that soon after disappeared. Now later, I was told she he got the proper education, like that. Another penzelama, an official penzelama, according to my information,

he also used a very serious sort of Buddhist practitioner. That's good. So there's a lot of drama here. The stakes are high because clearly the Chinese want to control the choosing of the next Dalai Lama. But the guy who currently has the job told me in this interview that maybe it's time to do away with the institution altogether, depicting it as outdated and futile. ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ

ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ ธุดล่าวิติ which institution, like Darala institution. So there is something, something like a feudal sort of a city system. Now that's gone. So that's why I voluntarily retard political leadership and then also we say in future, Dalai Lama institution, such Dalai institution, whether I should keep or not, up to the better people,

not necessarily to keep. Sometimes I was only telling, People are not necessarily to keep. Sometimes I'm only telling, they're me, the fourteenth of the Dalai Lama, quite well-known person. So the institution now sees at that time, it's good, then the Dalai Lama institutions remain something good. Then the alarm institutions remain something good. The 15 alarm come,

disgrace the alarm, then a few centuries old, or say, the institution. And with disgrace, it's very bad. So, better, this institution sees while a wonderful Dalai Lama. I prefer that.

I know you mentioned before that when you watch the news sometimes it brings tears to your eyes because you see the suffering that is happening right now in the middle of this virus. I wonder if you have a message to people who right now are feeling overwhelming grief because they've lost somebody. Often when you lose somebody in this virus, you can't even say goodbye. Or people who are grieving the fact that we've lost a way of life. It seems like the world has changed and it may not go back to the way it was. What would you say to people who are feeling grief right now? Indeed, it's very sad. However, it's a physical, it's a basis of different illness.

So now, so we have to pay more attention and particularly scientists, particular sort of scientists, particular field, they already sort of investigation what is the antidote, these things. So without losing, or say the courage, These things. So, without losing, as a encourage, sadness should transform determination, more suffering,

more determination, should not feel helplessness. Helplessness. That's the failure. Like our own cause. We never sort of give up. We try, try. Mainly try to preserve the better and ecology, the better and cultural knowledge, these things. One fail. Again, effort.

Fail. Again effort. 1-1 fail, again, effort, fail, again effort, you make 1-effort fail, then completely lost. You are determination, that's wrong. Failure, again, try, try, try, try. So regarding this illness, now a number of doctors, nurses, even they willing to sacrifice their own life, I really appreciate, wonderful. So without losing our self-confidence, make effort, make effort.

That's important. So eventually, I think this particular illness, I think we will reduce, like that. So then, according to the environment, one of my friends, one Chinese about ecology, he mentioned, there are a few decades, global warming reached such, then world may become desert. So then this problem is no longer the basis of these illness is our body. The global warming, such levels, the should not demoralize the determination.

Make effort, one failure, again, effort, effort. Call her that. So in any way, there are many people due to this illness. This is a subha, In any way, as many people do to this illness, this is somehow, I really feel very sad, sometimes according to my own sort of tradition, some prayer, prayer.

So now, basically, any suffering, if there is a way to overcome, then no use to discourage, no need to discourage. If the problem, no use to overcome, Then no use to worry. So, now this problem, many making effort, I really appreciate and make continuously effort. Then I think certainly can change. You spoke earlier in our conversation about America's role in the world. You have met with every American president, except this president, Donald Trump. I wonder if you could speak with President

Trump now about America's role in the world, in the midst of this virus. What would you say to him? When he first expressed America first, I feel a little uncomfortable. America, as I mentioned, the leading nation of free world, America should think about free world. And through that way, whole world, America, the leading nation of free world. So, here is our thinking only America, only America, a little bit too small. That's my feeling. Then, a lot of American media, you see, sometimes a lot of problems, a lot of criticisms.

That's your business. So you don't want to get involved in American politics is what you're saying. Oh, yes. Yes, there's your business. I have a lot of problems, so I just, sufficient enough. I understand. Your holiness, I'm sensitive to your time. You've been very generous.

If I may, I just want to ask one last question, and it's a lighter question. You said that you watch a couple of hours of TV a day, I know you watch some news, but I'm curious, I can't help myself. Do you ever watch something fun? What do you do when you want to purely relax? I found the television, some sort of program, it's a lot of complicated or troubled criticism, something like that. So sometimes I look at animals. You look at animals. Animal, really nature.

Sometimes you see those animal tigers or labor, these sometimes a little bit uncomfortable. But these are very peaceful. So I found to look animal. Sometimes you see too much cruel, cruel, or sometimes I feel sad and some prayer. So that also you see helpful as Buddhist practitioner. So that also uses helpful as Buddhist practitioner. Let's say you appreciate this your life,

which human being, human brain, or wonderful. Now I should not waste this wonderful brain, wonderful life. Okay. Thank you, your holiness. Thank you very much. Thank you. Big thanks again to his holiness, the Dalai Lama, so much down pack from that interview. So many questions like his joke about getting into a fight with Ritchie, his comments about ending the institution of the Dalai Lama, all the questions about what exactly he was driving at in his seemingly

complicated recommendation for beginning meditation. We're going to discuss all of that with Ritchie after this quick break. Life is short, and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time here on Earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is Short, with Justin Long.

If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people

about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs, and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff.

Like if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow life is short wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Welcome back. As I said, there's a lot to unpack in that conversation with the Dollar Lama. A couple of days afterwards on Tuesday, I called up Richie to discuss to refresh your memory. Richie Davidson, full name, is the founder of the Center for Healthy Minds at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. And he's truly a pioneer when it comes to the neuroscience around meditation. He's got a long term relationship with the Dalai Lama. In fact, we would not have scored that interview. We're not for Richie. So in this brief chat, we unpacked many of the questions

raised during that interview. So here we go, Richie Davidson. So there are so many things I want to talk to you about because there are so many points of interest from that interview. And some of them actually kind of whizzed by me in the moment. It wasn't until I listened to it again

that I realized, oh, he just said something significant there. So I have a million questions for you. But before we dive into that, can you just describe, because I know from having spoken to you before that the Dalai Lama has had a massive impact on your life and on your work. So can you just give the audience the basics on that?

Certainly. I first met the Dalai Lama in 1992. And at that time in my career, I was mostly focusing on the brain mechanisms that underlie stress, adversity, and depression. He challenged me then to focus more on the virtuous side. It was a very significant challenge and we began to orient more and more of our work in that direction. And over the years, there are many ways in which he's impacted the work in a much more nuanced way. So, for example, one of the things that he talked about in the interview a couple of days ago is the idea

that this entity that we think of as me is not what it's really cracked up to be. And it turns out that his incessant inquiry about that and talking to me about that constantly has had a really deep impact on how I think about meditation and also what I think the really important questions are and what the mechanisms are that may lead to some of the most important practical benefits of meditation. So one of the most important practical benefits, particularly at this time in our history, is resilience. And I think that some of the things that he was talking about really are the fundamental mechanisms which enable people to actually learn to become more resilient. And it took me a while to really appreciate that,

but I have come to really deeply appreciate it, and it's affected both my scientific work and also my own personal practice. So, in neuroscience, can you use FMRI machines to figure out whether there actually is some sort of eye in there or whether we have some sort of identifiable soul? In some sense, yes.

So you can give a person a task, for example, where you present an agi-tival descriptor to them like friendly or calm. And you can ask them to what extent does this word describe yourself and you can also look to see how a meditator does this compared to a non-meditator for example and you can study these networks that are engaged in the brain when we do a task like that and how the organization of those networks may differ in a meditator versus a non-meditator. But I should also mention there's a very famous paper that was published about 10 or 12

years ago, not by us, by a group in France, where they did what scientists call a meta-analysis, where they took research from many different scientists and put it together in a quantitative way and looked at studies of this kind to see where in the brain the self was located and that they actually have a beautiful figure in this paper where they display where the hotspot was in each of these studies and the finding from this metanalysis is revealing. What they found is that this hotspot was all over the place. It was not in any specific location. And this is something which in many ways is very consistent

with I think the Buddhist view, which is that there is no single location for the self, so to speak. But it really depends. It depends on what the context is. It depends on what else a person may be thinking. It depends on what the context is. It depends on what else a person may be thinking. It depends on their history and so on and so forth. That all was fascinating. And I also want to make sure that I don't give short shrift to the relationship between you and the Dalai Lama. Because

before that pivotal conversation that you had with his holiness where he challenged you to stop looking at our sort of pathologies and start looking at our potential for positive emotions, you were a long time but closeted meditator. So this was something you were really interested in, but you didn't want to tell anybody in your field about it because you thought it would be embarrassing. So this was actually kind of a leap you took when you pivoted your career in this way. I really was. It was a wake up call. You know, by 1992, I was a tenured full professor at a major institution. And I really made a very conscious decision. And I remember kind of wrestling with myself about it

to what extent should I come out of the closet? Because in 1992, the scientific community was not particularly receptive to this. I mean, they were even less receptive when I first began, but still in 1992, they were even less receptive when I first began, but still in 1992 They were not receptive and you know, we've all been taught in Graduate school when I was going to graduate school that we look at a person and we try to find out what's wrong with them And what the Dalai Lama was asking me to do is look at a person and find out what's right about them

It really is a completely different orientation and so it did take a leap of faith. And I mean, one of the things that I feel when I'm with the Dalai Lama is a real sense of security and not an arrogant confidence, but a kind of quiet confidence that I just felt that this was a direction that I needed to pursue and it didn't matter to me what some colleagues may think. And I was just going to listen to my own heart and my inner voice and make this pivot. And I think it's worth pointing out because I'm not sure a lot of people understand that this man who certainly looks like and is legitimately seen as a religious figure, or the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people, has had a significant impact on modern science with you kind of

as his contemplative cat's and other scientists of course where you know he kicked off in many ways the scientific endeavor this whole field that's now known as contemplative neuroscience where we you look at the brains and the rest of the bodies of meditators and find out what's happening as a result of this practice that has legitimized this practice and allowed for skeptical people like me to do it and to popularize it and change the lives of millions and millions of people. And so it would be easy to, you know, write him off as, you know, adorable or whatever, but actually he's had a pretty significant impact in this field of science and by extension culture. I think he has, and one of the great honors in my life

has been the opportunity, I've been in a position where I can select major scientists and invite them to participate in dialogues with the Dalai Lama, either at his residence in Darm Sala or sometimes here in the West. You know, I've done that with the conviction that when a person has an opportunity to be with his holiness, in person, that they will be irrevocably affected in a way that will potentially have lasting impact.

And if we can bring the top scientists in the world in the presence of his holiness, this can have multiplicative effects in many rounds of science. Let me dive into some of the moments from the interview. I didn't hear this because I was out of the room and I came in late. Oh, my producer had sent me downstairs to get makeup. And so when I walked in, you got you in the

dollar alarm or already chatting. And that was only after I listened back to it. There was a very interesting moment that displays his sense of humor, which is not what you would think it would be just based on appearances. You said, how's your health health and he said something to the effective well the only way for us to know would be if we had a fight and I was and I'm like did the Dalai Lama just challenge rich you to a fight. I think that's what I heard So what do you make of that kind of joking on his part? You know, he's very playful. He's also competitive. You know, I think he has a kind of, again, a quiet pride and confidence in his ability to prepare for things. And, you know, he's an extraordinary student and can devote just amazing amounts of effort

to something he decides is important. I think it's a reflection of that combination of playfulness and confidence. But it showed up later at another part in the interview when he was talking about, he started talking about how sad he was on behalf of the people who were suffering in this pandemic. Then he pivoted to talk about global warming. And he said, yeah, there's a Chinese ecologist who told me that the whole planet could turn into a desert. So, you know, then we wouldn't be able to live.

And so then it would, you know, this whole discussion about a virus would be sort of tangential. And he's laughing as he's saying this. And it's interesting. I mean, I think I know where he's going with it, but it's a little hard to compute. What do you make of that? Well, I would say that he takes the really long view, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, we know of this concept of impermanence. Everything is

impermanent, but there's really one quality that's not impermanent, which is awareness. It doesn't have an end and it doesn't have a beginning. It's continuous, according to their beliefs. So, according to that long view, and in the Tibetan tradition, there are times when civilization has really flourished and other times when it's not. And there's this cyclical kind of existence. And so I think that his holiness really sees it that way, that he can see this pandemic. On the one hand, there's the immediate tragedy, and as he was describing to us in the interview, he was actually crying at times, watching images on television, and I totally believe that.

I've seen him do that. But on the other hand, in the cosmic scheme of things, this is going to be a little blip, and he can see that as well. It's so interesting, right? So in the, hey, let's have a fight, joke. That's a mixture of playfulness and competitiveness, maybe. And in this case, where he pivots within the space of a paragraph between projecting what seems to be to be utterly uncontrived, compassion for the people who are suffering, and then

sort of laughing as he talks about the, you know, potential obliteration of human civilization, that from what I'm hearing from you is a mixture of playfulness and sort of a deep, deep view of our place in geological time. Yeah, almost cosmic time, you might say. But yes, yes, and I also think there's one other element here, which is worth pointing out, particularly for listeners who are attracted to meditation. And that is that one of the things that I've noticed

about the Dalai Lama, you know, I've in normal times, I typically see him three or four times a year. We've known each other for 25 years, so, you know, I've been with him a lot of times. And I consider myself a lifelong student of emotion. It's one of the areas that I study a lot. And one of the things that is so extraordinary about the Dalai Lama is the dynamic range of his emotion. He has a greater dynamic range of emotion than any other human being I've ever encountered. And by that I mean, he can go from a state of crying to laughter just like that. And it's not inappropriate. It's just responding to what is appropriate right in the moment, but there's

no holding on when it's not appropriate. There's no lingering. And you see that in a young baby. So for those of you out there who are parents, you've seen it in your kids, but it's something that virtually all of us lose as we develop into adults. But the Dalai Lama has that, but I think he has that with real wisdom. And it's so unusual.

That's an incredible analysis on your part. So I'm really glad we're doing this debrief together. There's because there's so much from the interview I want to talk about. Here's another moment. I don't know if you caught this, but he was talking about how when he lived in Tibet, he was isolated. And then when he got, when he left and became a refugee in India, he actually said that his life became happier. That was surprising to me. Yeah, I mean, he's, I've heard him say that before in slightly different ways, but essentially the same point. I think that he's genuinely appreciative of the opportunity that being an exile has provided to benefit

more human beings. I think he clearly sees that if he remained into debt, he would not have had the opportunity to have such extended benefit really across the planet in a way that he has had since he's been in exile. And I think he reflects on that every day. And while it's a poignant situation and not necessarily one that he would have chosen, I think he's deeply grateful for what it has enabled. So here's another moment I want to talk about. I asked him, can you give me a meditation practice that regular people can do?

And I said something simple. And he launched into a description of a meditation practice. You know, I'm not an expert in meditation, but I've written a few books about it, and I do a reasonable amount. I didn't understand what he was talking about. I mean, I kind of understood it, but I didn't really understand. He's talking about stopping your sensorial consciousness, no form, no sound. And then he said, and I did understand the second part, which was to switch to contemplating compassion. But can you unpack any of that?

That first part was pure zogchen, where he was really describing resting in the nature of mind completely. Can I stop you for a second? First of all, can you define zogchen? It's D-Z-O-G-C-H-E-N. Zogchen is, I believe, one way you spell it based on the Tibetan pronunciation. It's a four-letter theorem. And I should just sort of preface this by saying that I'm, you know, a rank beginner in this area. And so whatever I can say is based on extremely limited experience. But having said that is a style of practice. I mean, I believe that the word literally means the great perfection into Beton, and it is a particular style of meditation

practice, which is said to enable a person to rest in the primordial basic nature of the mind. That this is the mind in its pristine, luminous, vast, natural state, which is beyond concepts and beyond subject and object. And his holiness, although that's not his main form of practice. I think if you listen to the interview, I remember him saying, although we can verify this, but he said something like, if you're starting out to practice, this may be a good

form of practice to do if you're starting out, which is kind of amazing to me. That's, you know, he's introducing this as a kind of beginning practice. But this is a practice that I've done some over the last 10 years, and it's particularly taught in the Kagu and Nigma traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. It is a practice which is said to be passed down by a very specific oral tradition. So it's a kind of practice where you actually receive very specific instructions from a lineage holder who has been part of a continuous unbroken lineage who has been part of a continuous unbroken lineage where you are introduced by this lineage holder to the actual nature of your mind in a kind of awakening experience where you taste in a limited way what this kind of state actually is. And as you taste it, you become a little bit more familiar with it. And

the way I like in it is, you know, I'm sure many listeners have seen perceptual illusions like an illusion with where you can see it in one case as a vase and in another case as a profile of a face. And when you first see one of these illusions, sometimes it's hard to see the opposite illusion. You see it in one way and you can't see it in the other way. But once you've seen it the other way a few times, it becomes easier to switch into that other mode.

And resting in the nature of mind is similar. Once you begin to get more and more familiar, you can drop into it more easily. And I think his holiness, that's what he was referring to in terms of one styled meditation. I mean, I think he talked about three styles. One was that, another was a specific kind of compassion practice, which was Tom Lenn, and the third was analytic meditation, which is really using reasoning to inquire about the nature of the self, for example, or the nature of the mind, and using reasoning, we can actually arrive at an insight

about the basic nature of our mind. Yeah, there was a lot there. Not exactly a guided meditation in the way that we're accustomed to. And one of the other things to point out is that, you know, Tibetan teachers tend to be very different than Western Buddhist teachers in how they teach. And so a Tibetan teacher typically won't

actually lead you in a meditation. What they'll do is they'll give you some high-level instructions and they'll basically say, go off and practice for a few months and then come back and tell me about your experience. But they're not going to sit there with you as you kind of struggle with your own mind They'll just tell you to go off in practice You know here's the high level of instruction and then discover the rest of it for yourself in your own experience and then come back and you can report on it Let's just say a word about tongue-length because I think of all of the forms of meditation he talked about. This is the one that people at home could probably most easily do. So could you describe that practice in case somebody wants to actually do this in their

own life? Sure. And again, I don't really consider myself qualified to teach a practice like this, but what the practice entails is to essentially, you can do this by envisioning a particular person and if they're suffering or they have some kind of disturbance or problem. When you inhale, you can envision inhaling their difficulty. Whatever that difficulty may be, you take it into your own self. And then on the out breath, you are transforming that difficulty and you are wishing them ease, you're wishing them to be relieved of their difficulty, to be relieved of their

suffering. So in each in-breath you keep taking in the problem and on the out-breath you're giving compassion, you're giving love, you might be wishing them to be happy, and you do this in that kind of way. And you can move on to different people, to different categories of people. It often I think is very helpful when you're doing this practice to start with a loved one where you have a kind of uncomplicated, close relationship. It could be a family member. It could be a very close friend. It could even be a pet. And you do this. And then you can move on to other categories of people.

You don't have to breathe in a special way. You breathe as you're breathing and do the envisioning on the natural in-breath and out-breath. Exactly. So on this subjective compassion, it's the through line of everything pretty much that the Dalai Lama talks about. What kind of evidence have you found to support that compassion has beneficial impacts, both as a meditation practice and as a way of being in the world? So as a meditation practice, there is a growing body of evidence that suggests, first of

all, that compassion practice, for example, the kind of practice that we just discuss, Tonle, has effects on the brain and on the body that are different than a mindfulness practice. And so that's the first thing to know, is that the scientific research shows that the effects are not the same. And this is something helpful to appreciate in general, that not all forms of meditation are going to produce the same effect and I often say that in that way meditation is kind of like the word sports we know that there are many different kinds of sports and they're going to have somewhat different effects on the body. So that's the first point. The second is that first point. The second is that data show that even really brief amount of practice in people who've never meditated before. And I'm talking now about as little as a total

of seven hours of practice over the course of several weeks, say a half hour a day for two weeks, is sufficient to produce a measurable change in the brain and a measurable change in behavior. And actually data show that on certain kinds of objective behavioral tasks you can produce a change in as little as eight minutes. And so, actually, the data show you can produce changes on objective measures of behavior and the brain more quickly with compassion practices than you can with mindfulness practices. But when you talk about objective behavior, you're talking about you test whether somebody's willing to display altruism in a real world situation after having done some meditation like this?

Yes, so that's one kind of behavioral task that's been used in the lab. So you know, a kind of scenario that social psychologists like to construct is you invite a person to come in for an experiment. They're told to sit down and fill out a few questionnaires in a waiting room and There's just one chair in the waiting room and they're filling out the questionnaires and then someone else comes in who they believe is another participant and they come in on crutches and the question is Are you willing to give up your chair for this person on crutches and how quickly do you give up your chair for this person on crutches? And how quickly do you give up your chair for this person on crutches?

That's a kind of experiment that's actually been done where the benefits of compassion practice have been demonstrated. And you talked about having noticeable effects in the brain, I mean, pretty much anything I do is gonna change my brain right? If I learn how to play violin, it's gonna change my brain. So are the changes to the brain the kind of changes that I would want are they they're going to improve my life if I do this practice Yeah, so that's a very good question and actually the point you make is

Extremely important and true that is anything that you do any kind of regular activity in which you engage will change your brain. And so just to make the broader point here, and then we'll talk about this specifics, the invitation in all of this work is that we can actually take more responsibility for changing our brains in a positive direction rather than leaving willy-nilly to the forces around us to change our brain. And so moving specifically to the question about what is it that's changing, we see that at the beginning stages of practice, there are networks in the brain that are important for positive emotion that are activated. There's a region of the brain called the ventral striatum,

which is very important in positive emotion, and that's an area that gets activated by compassion practices. There's also a second region that is called the temporal parietal junction. It's kind of in the back of the head, and this is an area that's been found to be very important for perspective taking So if I ask you to sort of put yourself in the shoes of another person when we use that kind of metaphor

Taking the perspective of another engages this area the brain and that's another area that gets strengthened by these kinds of the brain and that's another area that gets strengthened by these kinds of compassion practices. So I would say that those are things that are good for you and we also know that changes occur in the body that certainly are good for you. Compassion practice is anti-inflammatory. It actually decreases molecules in the body that we know are important in producing inflammation. And we know that many chronic illnesses involve systemic inflammation. Even neurodegenerative disorders, like Alzheimer's, involves inflammation in the brain. And there's more and more work to suggest that these kinds of compassion practices decrease these inflammatory molecules.

Final question for you about the interview with the Dalai Lama is that there was a moment where he, we were talking about the punch in Lama and the whole controversy about this kid who disappeared 25 years ago now a man and the Dalai Lama kind of Rapt it up by saying well, you know, maybe we don't need any more Dalai Lama's now I believe he said that before but it's still pretty striking to hear him say, you know, maybe I should be the last

Yeah, I mean, it's quite extraordinary to hear that. You know, I've heard it before too, but it's the fact that he said this in a venue that he knows will be shown to millions of people was quite extraordinary. My view of this is that it is very much wrapped up in the current political situation. And I think that he is concerned about China appointing the next Dalai Lama, and one way to resolve that is by declaring that the lineage will end with him. There are certainly other strategies, and I've also heard him say on several prior occasions that at some point, either in his 90s or soon before he dies, whichever comes first, he will make a public announcement about the future of the lineage.

Rich, I just want to say, first of all, it's been so useful and interesting to be able to unpack this interview with you so soon after having done it. So thank you for that. And thank you even more because you're the sine qua non of the interview. I mean, we wouldn't have happened without you. So I'm just super grateful to you for making it happen. Well, I'm, I really appreciate the kind words. And I also want to just say I, I deeply, deeply respect and appreciate all you're doing. And I know that there are many people in this world who are trying meditation for the first time because of you. And I just want to express my deepest gratitude because I think you are serving in such an important role today.

And you are serving as this very important translator. And now is more important time than ever. So thank you. Thanks. I thank you. Thanks. I appreciate that. Big thanks to Richie and his team at the Center for Healthy Minds for helping make this happen. And of course, thank you to the Dalai Lama and his whole team. If you like this episode, please share it widely. We could use a little viral sanity these days. And if you like this show, in general, please subscribe, rate us, et cetera, et cetera. I know hosts make that ask all the time

but actually makes a huge difference so do us a solid if you can. A few more shout outs before I go here. Big thanks to my colleagues at ABC News who worked really hard on all of this most especially Ode Swayche from Nightline. Also of course the mighty TPH team. Samuel Johns is our producer, our sound designers are Matt Boynton and Anya Sheshek of Ultraviolet Audio. Maria Wartel is our production coordinator. We get a ton of input and wisdom and guidance from TPH colleagues such as Jen Poehont who worked really hard on this episode, also Ben Ruben and Nate Toby. And of course big thanks to the ABC News radio folks

without whom none of this would happen Ryan Kessler and Josh Cohen. We'll see you soon. Hey hey prime members you can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today or you can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. you