Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 263: The Buddha's Four-Part Strategy for "Ultimate Happiness" | Sally Armstrong

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

"Mindfulness" has become a buzz phrase. There are books on mindful parenting, mindful lawyering, even mindful sex. But what does the word even mean? And how do you actually do it? In one of his most famous and foundational discourses, the Buddha was said to have laid out, in great detail, four ways to establish mindfulness. In today's episode we’re going to walk through these four "foundations" of mindfulness with Sally Armstrong, who started practicing in 1981, began teaching 15 years later, and now leads retreats all over the world. Before we start, I should note that we recorded this interview shortly before the pandemic and the racial justice protests, but we thought it might be a good time to drop a good, old-fashioned, meat and potatoes, stick to your ribs dharma episode to help us get back to basics.  Where to find Sally online:  Spirit Rock Profile: https://www.spiritrock.org/sally-armstrong Sally Armstrong on Dharmaseed.org: https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/153/ You can find meditations from our world-class teachers and much more on our app. Visit tenpercent.com to download the Ten Percent Happier app and kickstart your meditation practice. Visit tenpercent.com to sign up today. Other Resources Mentioned: S.N Goenka / https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/about/goenka  The 3 Characteristics / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence The Four Noble Truths / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths Ajahn Sumedho / https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/10/ Insight Meditation Society / https://www.dharma.org/ Joseph Goldstein’s Book Mindfulness / https://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Practical-Awakening-Joseph-Goldstein/dp/1622036050  Additional Resources: Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/sally-armstrong-263 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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From ABC, it's the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Mindfulness has become a bit of a buzz phrase these days. There are books on mindful parenting, mindful loyering, even mindful sex. That's that's for real. But what does the word even mean? And how do he actually do it? In one of his most famous and foundational discourses, a guy named the Buddha was said to have laid out in great detail four ways to establish mindfulness. So in today's episode, we're gonna walk through these four so-called foundations of mindfulness with Sally Armstrong, who started practicing back in 1981, then began teaching 15 years after that,

and now leads retreats all over the world. Before we start, I wanna point out that we recorded this interview shortly before the pandemic and the racial justice protests, but we thought it might be a good time to drop a good old-fashioned meat and potatoes, stick to your ribs, Dharma episode to help us get back to basics. So here we go with Sally Armstrong.

Nice to see you again. Hi, Dad. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for being here. Let's start with your backstory. How did you get interested in meditation as a girl from Melbourne, Australia? It was a securitous route. I grew up in Melbourne, Australia, which is a long way from anywhere. It sounds like you've been to Australia, but back when I was growing up in the, born in the 50s and growing up in the 60s,

the rest of the world was a long way away. So it was a relatively sheltered upbringing. Obviously we had books and went to school and college and reading new ideas about the world was exciting, but it seemed a long way away. But I eventually saved up enough money and decided to do the thing that many young Australians do,

which is to leave for an extended period. Because once you leave, it's expensive. So you go and you stay away for a number of months. So my idea was that I would go to India for six months. Another friend had been and came back with all of these exotic stories about India. So I made some arrangements and that's what I did. I went to India. I had no clue about Asia or India. Certainly no real interest in meditation. I was about 25 years

old at the time. But being in India, it's just a very spiritual place. It's both very spiritual and incredibly challenging. And so you have to develop resources that I hadn't been challenged to develop in my life so far. Challenging because it's hard and messy. And everything is difficult and yet there's a sense of possibility there. And especially again coming from a relatively sheltered background in Melbourne, Australia, meeting people from all over the world, literally, certainly both Indian people, but other travelers from Europe, from Japan, from America. So just broaden my horizons. And it wasn't long in being in India, because it is such a spiritual place, those ideas

started to permeate the conversations that I was having and I started getting interested in meditation. I actually ended up living for about six months in Macloud Gunge, which is right where the Dalai Lama lives. People say Darum Sala, but Macloud is a hill town in India where British would go to escape the heat. It's quite a delightful setting and it feels like you're in Tibet.

It's full of Tibetans. So I got interested in Tibetan meditation while I was there. A lot of my friends were getting into it, but that was always too complicated for me. There was a lot of layers and barriers to access to the teachings. And someone finally said to me, if you want to learn to meditate, go and do a Goenka retreat. And so that's a retreat with SN Goenka, who was a, was, he's dead now, a very famous meditation teacher. He's Indian by nationality, but learned his meditation in Burma, which is a Buddhist country. And he instigated this idea of 10-day retreats where people lay people could come and practice

and learn meditation. And there was probably a couple of hundred people on the retreat. The retreat was with Asengu Anke himself, which now he's dead, but even many years ago was quite rare to actually practice with him. And it was in Hindi. So there were lots of challenges. And I can't remember what he taught. I mean, I know the basics of his meditation. What's somebody translating it from the Hindi book? So he would give the basic meditation instructions in both Hindi and English,

but for his Dharma talks, the people, the Westerners would be shunted off to a side building and we'd hear a tape of his in English. So it was sort of combined. But my strongest memory of it is kind of the shock that I could actually stop and look at my own mind and have some choices about how I acted and what came out of my mouth. That was a revelation to me. I thought we were just tumbling forward and knocking into each other like a pinball machine kind of thing and that the things that happened to me that were difficult or bad, what my

fault or I didn't know or someone else's fault. And this sense of agency, responsibility, and the ability to create intentions for myself. It was just life changing. And again, the sense of possibility from these teachings, even though most of them went way over my head, I'd never meditated before. His 10-day retreats are incredibly intensive, where by the third or fourth day, you're encouraged to do vow hours where you sit for an hour without moving or excruciating. But just this sense of actually engaging directly with your moment-to-moment experience and beginning to understand it.

And as I said, out of that, make choices from your values. It was life-changing, and it changed my life. I just jump in for seconds. I'm just trying to see if I can break down how the choices would emerge from the meditation. So you're sitting there in meditation, you're watching your breath come in and go out

or you're doing a body scan Where you're paying attention to parts of the body and watching the sensations come and go and then every time you get distracted Which happens a lot and you see how wild the mind is you return to whatever you've decided to focus on your breath of your body or whatever and In doing that you recognize Man, we're just ambushed by all these powerful emotions and random thoughts and powerful urges all the time, but don't necessarily have to act on them. Exactly. And that's where the choice comes in that you were describing.

Yes. Instead of just tumbling along on a egoic cascade our whole lives, we can notice what's going on in our mind and our body and act in a more sane, rational, values-based, as you said, way. Exactly. And what I always say about mindfulness, it creates this space where there's a choice. Do I follow that urge or line of thinking or in that space that's what the Buddha says, wisdom can come in there and allow a choice more out of your values, out of your higher intentions, rather than our habitual knee jerk reaction. People are often confused about how does paying attention to your breath or body sensations

actually support you in working more wisely with your mind and your mental and emotional states. And it is just that paying of intention in the noticing of what's happening. Mindfulness allows this space within which there can be a choice. Now, it's interesting that so often we see that space. We have the choice and we choose out of habit to go on without... Even meditators. Certainlytut certainly even meditate. Even you? Even me.

Even now. Those habits are strong of distraction or being pulled towards something that you know is not wise or healthy or appropriate in a moment. But that possibility was what excited me. And it comes from, as you say, just paying attention to the breath,

the body sensations, I can still remember my teacher, S. Engel Enker, saying, you might feel an itch. You don't need to scratch it. And that's such a metaphor for all of the urges in our life. They're like these itches, these urges. And just to have a sense, I don't need to automatically run towards that or push that away because it's too uncomfortable. That choice point is so important and becomes even more powerful when it's informed by values or by our higher motivations or aspirations. So I cut you off to clarify that point, but you were saying before that you were starting to say when I cut you off that, oh, just brief aside, I hope when I was saying, oh, even now you have, you give into your urges, I hope there was no judgment that came through because I do that all the time.

So just, just quick note on that. But you were starting to say before that that first 10-day retreat changed your life. Yes. You've been a Dharma teacher for quite a long time. I imagine that's the change you were referring to. Well, that in a big sense, but there were many smaller or smaller, what I really saw is from that retreat as I said, it changed my life because I made started making intentions from that retreat. How do I stay closer to or connect to what we call the Dhamma, the teachings? And I mean that in the broader sense.

So choices about going to other retreats, choices about becoming friends with people who are also meditators, going to places where meditation was happening. So I just see from that retreat the choices that I made that ended up, yes, becoming a meditation teacher, but many steps along the way. And they're always where I had a choice point,

where would I connect with teachings? Where would I be with people who share interest in these practices? And it just led me step by step to engagement in the community of meditators. And then, you know, over many years, I mean, I was practicing for many years before I began teaching. But that first retreat was the beginning of that whole journey.

In preparation for this interview, we sort of reached out to the broader 10% happier family of staff and coaches. And one of the people on our team, Cara Lie, I don't know if you may know her. And so she submitted a question that I thought would be interesting to ask you, given we're now sort of a sort of a certain in the biographical phase of the interview. Her question, and I'm quoting here, is how being a teacher is a part of your practice, how it shapes your practice, and does it challenge you, and can you use teaching intentionally as part of your practice?

Definitely. I mean, I have and still do consider teaching the both biggest benefit, the two-my practice, the biggest support for my practice and the biggest challenge to my practice. Those both go together because unless we're challenged and inquiring about our experience when not growing. So definitely teaching both in the actual doing of it, in preparing to teach, to, as you know, what one of the main forms that we use to give teachings

is what we call a Dharma talk, where we'll speak for 45 or 60 minutes on a certain topic. And thinking about what would be helpful for students, what's interesting to me, looking up resources, putting together something that we hope will be of benefit to students where they are in their practice in a particular retreat, or perhaps it's just an evening class where there will be a whole range of people, some of whom may not be familiar with meditation at all. So there's that stimulation of preparing the material and being engaged with the potential

audience for that. That's very stimulating. If I wasn't a teacher, I wouldn't be creative in that way. And there's something about diving into material with the intention of writing about it and presenting it publicly that forces you. I mean, I say this as somebody who's written a couple books about this stuff, that the writing of the books, all those torture for me, help me metabolize the material in a way I never otherwise would have.

Exactly. And I think that's very true. Even though it's much shorter, it's just an hour-long talk. But we have some forms where we'll give a series of talks or do a class series. And then it has to be, yeah, the sort of breadth of what you think would be helpful about a certain topic and really diving into that. So yes, I find teaching incredibly, as I said,

both supportive and challenging in a good way to my practice. And then the other aspect is, in the forms of teaching that we often do, we have either small group or one-to-one meetings with students where they bring their practice and their experience, and our role is to support them. And to do that, you have to know what they're talking about. You have to, you know, have had a range of experiences that might hopefully somewhat match what their experience is or know enough about the territory to have empathy and be able to then responding away that's helpful.

And that's a very embodied moment to moment practice. You can't have a rote answer. You can't think, oh tomorrow I'll say this to so and so. It's going to be so dynamic and in the moment that it's a mindfulness practice in and of itself, again, based in my practice and my understanding, my readings, my familiarity with the teachings and the wide range of forms of meditation there are. You know, meditation isn't just being mindful of the breath in the body. There's a whole range of ways of doing that.

And then certainly other practices that I've done that other people might be doing. So yeah, it's very rich and very stimulating. So I want to jump in on that point to say something nice that you probably can't say because you might not like the way it would sound coming out of your own mouth about your own work. But sometimes people will say to me, oh, Dan, you're helping to run an organization as a meditation app, you've written some books on it, aren't you basically a teacher?

And I'll say, no, you don't understand what a teacher does is required in my mind to be a teacher. And we're now in an era where people go off and study for a few weeks and get a certificate and start teaching meditation, which, man, maybe on some levels is okay in some ways, but anyway, I don't want to get too deep into that controversy. But I just want to say about people who I consider true teachers like you, is you've done

years of silent meditation retreats. And so that when you're confronted by a student's experience of their own mind, that you can respond with wisdom and skill, because that's an incredibly vulnerable moment for the student and a moment of incredible responsibility and weight for you. And it's not unlike I'm the child of two physicians and a marriage of a physician, and these are people who've done, you know, my wife, I think has seven years of post-med school training, something crazy. And that means that she can walk into an ICU and keep you alive. She didn't just sleep at a holiday in last night and therefore she can do it. And I think that's a really important thing for people to keep in mind when they listen to a meditation teacher that

the training is extensive. It is extensive, and there are also ways in which I feel like a beginner. When you talk about exploring the breadth and depths of the Buddhist teaching and his mind and his capacity as a teacher, I mean, his recorded volumes of teaching, one number I hear is like 26 volumes where he responded in all of these often brilliant ways to people's questions and talking about Dharma and practice and all of our meditation is based on what he taught. So there's a spectrum here, right, where yes, I feel I have practiced in a way and for enough depth that I can support the people who come

and speak to me and ways in which I know, you know, as Joseph Wood often says, it's just the tip of the iceberg. Joseph Goldstein, yes. But I think it's important, just I don't want people to miss, have misunderstood what you've just said as some sort of imposter syndrome because it's not. It's important in Buddhist circles to keep a beginner's mind. Yes. And that's what I hear from what you hear. I hear a healthy humility and a beginner's mind from what you just said. Yes, so it's not beginner is not

knowing, but just that that kind of openness to always growing and learning. As I said, teaching offers to me, it's like every time I have a conversation with someone, I learn something. I learn something about myself. Sometimes I learn about my limits, and that's actually helpful to know. I learn about how to be more skillful, how to support someone, and people have experiences that I haven't had. I haven't had every experience it's possible to have in meditation or otherwise, that's not possible. But to find the commonality or to find a way of supporting them, that's what I look to do when I'm speaking with people about meditation. So you said before that being a teacher has been the source of both inspiration and vigoration and support for your meditation practice, but also a

challenge. Have you said, have I given you a chance to say enough about how it's been a challenge? No, that would be a long conversation. I mean, part of it is just that. You know, you're always, if something's really, if there's a depth to something, I mean, as I said, I always feel like there's more to know, there's more to learn, that I am being challenged to both

speak from my experience, but to be able to speak in a language that someone can understand, if I speak to individually or uniquely about my specificity of my experience, it's not often helpful to someone else. So that's just one example of the challenge. There are practices that I'd like to learn more about and deepen in. There's more reading that I'd like to do to really familiarize myself with these volumes of texts. I haven't read anywhere near all of them. So there's that kind of thing. And then I'd have to say a challenge So there's that kind of thing. And then I'd have to say a challenge at the moment is addressing real-world concerns that people have.

And that can be, you know, if they're not my direct experience, how do I speak to someone that's having suffering, pain, confusion around there, say their sexuality or their racial background or they're feeling marginalized in some way. As our retreats are becoming more popular, we're getting more diverse communities coming and learning how to speak skillfully to people who've had a very different life than I have or background or sexual orientation or sexual expression, racial background. There's a whole level of learning about doing that skillfully that is again a challenge,

but one that really in liveans my own practice, my thinking, my discussions with fellow teachers and I think the way the Dharma is being presented at At the moment, I'm working specifically on climate change. And how do we talk about climate change in our teachings in a way that's actually supportive of people and helps them use work with that as Dharma practice and not it's something that's so fearful and overwhelming that we just collapse in a corner. So we're having conversations as teachers. how do we come to our own wise relationship to that? How do we be actively in support of

the huge steps that are needing to be taken around climate change? But using that as Dharma practice, so we're not activists out, we can be, but that's as a Dharma teacher, it's about finding language and practices and resources around that. So there's always new edges, new places to explore. And again, as a teacher, sort of back to when I'm sitting with someone in a practice meeting, I see my role is helping them frame or understand their experience in Dharma language or Dharma practice terms. And it's the same with any of these new areas of exploration. How do we bring that into our practice? How, how do, what's Dharma understanding of that? How is there wise view in relationship to this

particular area of modern day life? I want to get you to say more about that and planned on diving in here, but I'm actually really glad we are because I can imagine people listening to this might have been confused by what you say, putting it in Dharma language because some of the things that you reference that are coming up in these one-on-one sessions with students and usually in a retreat context, I would imagine, is they come in, pop down on the chair, opposite you, and they may be thinking that this is a relationship somewhat akin to a shrink. But you're not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, you're a dermatologist. And so in some ways, you're having to level set. So you're actually making sure that you're both coming from the same place as you have this discussion. That strikes me as very challenging.

Yeah. And many teachers actually are therapists or psychiatrists have some training in that area. And I think it can be really helpful. I don't, you know, I'm trained as a meditation teacher that is my training. But we do learn certain skills that are in some way similar to what a therapist might do in sitting with someone and having empathy and creating a safe space for them to share what's going on. But the framing that I'm talking about, helping

them to understand their experience in Dharma language and Dharma practice is both as a meditation because, again, as you said, this is often in the context of meditation retreat, so they'll leave this meeting and go out and continue practicing mindfulness. How do they work with whatever has come up with them in their ongoing silent, alone practice, you know, for most of the day, I don't know how much your audience knows about retreats, but they're in silence, you know, sitting and walking with these every day or so meetings with a teacher. And so looking how to support them, working with whatever has come up on the emotional

level, physical level, literally in their meditation practice. And then the other side, more of a dharma perspective, is using these teachings of the Buddha that are so brilliant about the three characteristics that everything we're experiencing in this conditional realm is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and there's not an inherent solidity permanent self at the core of it. And so just reminding them of things, they already know, but when you're caught in some real difficulty, we all lose that wisdom, reminding them about the four noble truths. This is suffering.

This is the nature of being human. You have a body and a mind, there will be suffering. It's not wrong that this is happening, but how do we learn from it instead of feeling helpless or a victim or angry about it? So that kind of framing. What happens when somebody comes in and you're supposed to be sort of taking care of them, as you said, creating a safe space

and you just press your buttons and you're having thoughts like, this person rubs me the wrong way. So that can happen. We're all human and individuals, and have very different ways we approach things. But I think I said before, this kind of meeting with students is a practice.

And so my practice then is to become aware of those reactions and know them just as they might be repetitive but fleeting thoughts in the mind that have perhaps triggered some physiological response of the heart beating faster or clenching in the belly and breathe. The simple answer would be just to breathe and know that, to ground myself in some way, that following those thoughts we're back to looking at intentions and the choice point isn't skillful. Right now it's actually very counterproductive and that's my practice. How to sit with someone where there is dissension, difficulty, disagreement, and hold that space.

And I can do that sometimes quite well and other times perhaps challenge, but that would be my intention is to have that as my practice and also to know for whoever it is on the other side in the chair opposite me that they're struggling with something, that this is their duke, their suffering, and they're just, you know, in their escape from it, trying to put it on to me, that's why the four noble truths are so helpful is this is what it's like to be human. We miss each other. There can be contention, there can be difficulty. And so this big of framing, grounding the feet on the floor, feeling my breath, and knowing again, that's my role is to help this person hold this.

And if I really can't do it skillfully, you know, the interviews, the practice meetings aren't that long, 10 or 15 minutes. It's just like, how can I be with this person until they have to leave? And then I have to assess, you know, what would be more skillful next time, someone else will probably be speaking to them, they'll be in a different space. That's where the impermanence part comes into. You don't take it so seriously seriously because I know people can get very activated on retreat. People have sometimes a sense of retreat as this place of relaxation and calm and we can get incredibly challenged physically, emotionally through our memories, through interactions with

other people on the retreat. People can be, instead of on their best behavior, sometimes the more challenging side of people can come out. And again, just knowing that creates a space to hopefully help me hold them in whatever they're going through and not buy into my, whatever reactions I might be having. More of my conversation with Sally right after this. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke. And where the hosts of Wunderys Podcast, even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true

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of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. So in preparing for this interview, in reading my preparation materials, which are prepared by two of my amazing colleagues Grace Livingston and Samuel Johns, one of the things that I saw in these prep materials, that one of the things that's of real interest to you is getting pretty granular about what the Buddha said is actual teachings. And I don't think we've done a ton on this actual teachings. And I don't think we've done a ton on this podcast of like diving into

the early teachings of the Buddha and explaining them in a really simple way, which is your power alley, because I've seen you on my own retreats. I've seen you give Dharma talks and you're great at this. So I thought we could do that here. You mentioned the four noble truths. I just want to not let that go by without quickly. I'll give a quick explanation of what those are because I have a bigger question for you. The Four Noble Truths, just for anybody who's initiated here, is after the Buddha got enlightened or, you know, if you believe the myth, he got enlightened. Then he went out and took some downtime and then he went out and gave his first talk to some of his old meditation buddies and he delivered what are now known as the Four Noble Truths. One is life is suffering, which means you're constantly getting your innards pecked

out by crows. It means that if everything is impermanent and if you're clinging to things that won't last, it's not going gonna be awesome for you. Second one is the source of suffering is thirst or desire, doesn't mean wanting food is a bad thing, but if all you're doing all the time is just wanting, wanting, wanting. Again, in a world characterized by impermanence, it's gonna be difficult.

The third is there is a way out of this, and the fourth is here's the way out of it. It's called the noble eightfold path and it's consisting of things like right mindfulness, right view, a whole list of things that Sally could list that I can't. I'm giving you the quick version of that because I want to dive into another area of the Buddha's early teachings with Sally, which we've never really talked about on the podcast that I think would be really useful to do here. So that is the four foundations of mindfulness, which is so interesting to understand as a practitioner at whatever level. So first of all, did I do an okay job giving the dime store version of the Four Noble Truths, was that close enough?

Close enough. Okay. Yes. The suffices to say you could read any number of good books and get a better version of that than me. Okay. So, for foundations of mindfulness, this comes from a famous talk the Buddha gave, known as the Satyupatana Sutta, and in which he described the four ways in which one can develop

mindfulness. So, can you... Let's start with number one. What's number one? The first foundation of mindfulness is the body. And this is another map. I like to talk about the Buddha's teachings, often providing us with maps.

And now we're all familiar with Google Maps. We used it to get here today to find our way into the city. It's so helpful to have a guide that tells you this would be really important to look here, to turn here, to pay attention to this. And this is what the Buddha does over and over again. And so this is one of the main maps that he gave us for our meditation practice.

There's a linearity to it, but they never ridged in that way. It's something that we can use and we can deepen over a lifetime, over many lifetimes if you have that worldview. So it begins with, as he always does, kind of with the real basic, almost obvious place to start, which is mindfulness of the body. And we've already talked just a little bit about how being mindful of the breath and the body as a training helps us work with the mind. We use this awareness of the body and he gives a number of different practices for working with the body, many of which we teach and if people have done any meditation, they will be following some of these steps because it includes the breath, it includes the body sensations.

He dives into it in ways that we often don't teach. He talks about death contemplations, or corpse contemplation, the way he talks about working with the body in a section called the 32 parts of the body. We don't teach that much, but the basics of what's in this first foundation is what is the

foundation of virtually any meditation practice. Right, but corpse, we just explain what that means. This is hard to do now because they're hard to find dead bodies, but back then they had charnel grounds where they would lay out the bodies and let the vultures eat them, or some other stuff. Yes, there were many different, you know, in India, they had burning guts, so some bodies would be burnt, some would be just strewn in the channel ground and vultures or dogs or whatever would eat them.

But even in the text, the Buddha doesn't say you have to have a dead body. He says, as though one were to see or as though one were to imagine. So you can just do this as a reflection. You don't have to have a channel ground, but it really is kind of starting with this grounding in the body, which we think of as so solid and definitely so much me who I am, this body, and permanent in a way. We look in the mirror every day and there's me. Certainly, if we look at a photo from how many, you know, you have to, the timeline gets, I don't know, longer or shorter as you get older, you know, when have to, the timeline gets, I don't know, longer or shorter

as you get older, you know, when did I start looking different than how I do now? But we have so many conditioned relationships to the body, to how we look, physical, you know, height, hair, everything, the size and shape of the body. We have so many constructs about that size and shape of the body, we have so many constructs about that that really limit us. And they're often misguided or even untrue. People have body, what is it, dysmorphia where their sense of themselves isn't actually very accurate. And the Buddha's teaching is always not think about the body or your idea about the body, your concept of the body, feel the body or your idea about the body or your concept of the body, feel the body. Know the

body from the inside. And what the Buddha is trying to do in this foundation and the other foundations is deconstruct our solidified view of experience. So starting with the body is this very solid, lasting thing. It's been with me since day one, you know, be with me at my death, I presume. We have this idea about it and he say, look and see what's actually here and he gives all these different ways that we can do that. But just the the very basics that he starts with of the breath coming and going and the bodily sensations, you know, our, even the view of a hand, we're so used to, we can look at our hand, but as one of my teachers, Ajahn Samedo says, I can't look at my own eyes. I can only see a reflection of my eyes, they're not my eyes. And so it's this shifting of how we're understanding

the nature of the body seen through these other templates and the challenge with the Buddha is you use one list and that brings in another list and another list and you can get overwhelmed by list. But I use this one before of the three characteristics, the body's impermanent. It's unsatisfactory in the sense that we, it doesn't do what we want it to do.

It's always in some state of challenge, it's hungry, it's thirsty, it's aching, it's getting wrinkled or whatever. Too hot to call. Too hot to call. And that we're not in control in the way we'd like to be. So we start understanding the body in this first foundation in a very different way than a habitual way of thinking about the body or our ideas and concepts, both the ones we have, but certainly we've taken a lot of concepts

from culture and internalize them about what we should or shouldn't look like or what's cool or not cool. And so it's really again deconstructing that, and there's a lot of freedom in that. Foundation number two. Foundation number two is in the language that the teachings came down to us called Vedina, and this is a really interesting foundation in the sense that the Buddha thought it was important enough to make. There's only four, and this becomes one of them. So Vedina we usually translate as feeling tone, and that's the quality that every conditioned

experience have, every conditioned experience of being either pleasant, unpleasant, or the literal translation is neither unpleasant nor pleasant. It'll be just translate every conditioned experience. Basically, everything that happens in your mind. Yes. In the world. Yeah. Well, but everything that happens in the world is refracted through your mind anyway.

It's through the mind. So you're sitting in meditation, or you can see it. We're clearly in meditation, I think. Yes. I can at least. But you're sitting in meditation and you're noticing a sensation of heat or cold or an emotion like anger or joy, and it has everything. There's a rapidity to these conditioned experiences, these objects that arise in the

mind. But everything that comes up is either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Yes, exactly. And this is a universal law. It's not like, if you know what it happens, if you don't know it, it's not happening. It's always happening. And we have been trained from very early on, and it's very instinctual, a lot of this. And so we have to understand that and give ourselves some space around this. But we have been very deeply trained to run after what's pleasant and to push away what's unpleasant. And there's a ton of strategies we've all developed around those two. And for what's neutral to space out, to get bored, to go look for something else more

exciting to happen. And so the Buddha really saw that those three modes and what they then, you could say, impel us to do, is the cause of all of our suffering. That running after what's pleasant, and this is where the teachings, there's a great synchronicity to them. You went through the four noble truths before, and the second noble truth is the truth of Tanha or craving. And you said,

it's that endless wanting. The literal translation of this word Tanha means unquenchable thirst. So as you said, it's not, oh, that I'm hungry or thirsty or taking care of my family. This is not what it's talking about. It's that unquenchable thirst. And so we've been trained conditioned to chase after what's pleasant and if things aren't pleasant, something's wrong. And if something's unpleasant, I need to push it away. I need to get out of here or strike back, you know, get rid of that thing through anger or through some kind of defense mechanism. And most of us are ping ponging all day long. With these three, you know, you could say quite subtle experiences,

but in their effect, they're incredibly important. Joseph describes this as like a bug in a jar, just constantly moving up and down the levels of the pinging off the sides of the jar, just we're not really in control, just yanked around. Yes, it's this knee jerk reaction. Knee jerk reaction. And again, we're coming back to how mindfulness, as you say, it's easier to see this in meditation when, especially if we're sitting still, and a thought can come or an itch or too hot, too cold, and that immediate urge to change the situation. So we can see that more clearly in the silence, in the stillness

of meditation. But once you train in this knowing, as I said, it's happening all the time, and this choice point that I spoke about earlier is so important. Yes, our knee-jerk reaction is something's out there, and it's appealing. Go get it. And the challenge we all face is these days so many of us can. We have a phone in our pocket that could bring almost anything in the world if we can have the money to our doorstep. It used to be, you know, in five days, that was pretty amazing. And then two days. And now, you know, it's like... Drone delivery. Exactly.

And so these compulsions that we have, the whole consumer culture is designed to let us feel we can and we even should act on them and have them be satisfied. But the thing about these urges, as you pointed out before, is they're never satisfied. There's always a new shiny object out there, or something new to hate, some variation of what we don't like to hate. So we're on a kind of treadmill if we're not aware of it. And we can seem like we're in control of everything. We're making choices and we're living our lives, but underneath what's fueling it are these very primal reactions, wanting, not wanting, and the Buddha would say delusion or ignorance about what's not seen.

Foundation number three. So that's in again in the text, chitta, c-i-t-t-a, and we tend to translate that as mind state, so it includes basically our whole emotional realm, but in the text it also talks about states of meditation, is the mind concentrated or not? Is it restless or not? Is there aversion or wanting those basic responses to Vadenet present in the mind, is the mind contracted or expanded. So it starts with the very basic responses to the second foundation, which is pleasant and pleasant, neutral. Our usual response to pleasant is grasping, right? We want it. So that's the first in the third foundation of mindfulness, is greed, present in the mind, is wanting present in the mind,

or not present, is aversion present or not present, or is delusion. So they're tied together. We get to know them in the second foundation, in the third foundation, we look at what happens to the pleasant, unpleasant, oh, we want that. We don't want this. And so the third foundation is really coming to know these, again, very, it's not simple,

but they're essential movements of mind that we live with all day long. What's brilliant about this foundation is, it can seem, I don't know, I don't know, you have to say negative, because it starts off saying it's greed aversion, it's greed present in the mind, it's a version present in the mind. These are, these first three, again another list, are known as the Colases. Translation is usually the torments of mind or the poisons of mind. These are the roots of the unhulsing that lead us into actions that cause harm for ourselves or others, greed, aversion, and delusion. But in the foundation, the teaching is, is it present?

And the meditator is just asked to know, is it present? Or is it not present? He doesn't say, this is a terrible thing and it shouldn't be present. And the fact that it's present means that you are a bad person or you've messed up or you shouldn't be doing that. It's just this very clear recognition, oh there's greed in the mind. If we can understand that in that way and that's what meditation trains us to do, just to see it very clearly, oh the greed is present. That choice point opens up again, where we don't have to run after what the mind is greedy for. And there's something kind of, I don't know, reassuring or refreshing. Again, there's no blame or judgment about it's

there. It's just there or it's not there. We're also instructed to know when it's not there. And to appreciate those moments, most of us are really wired to notice what's wrong, and especially what's wrong with us, with our minds, with our bodies, with our world. And this is, are you also noticed when the mind isn't full of greed? And in the text, the language doesn't say it specifically, but the opposite of greed is non-greet, which is basically letting go, or relinquishment could even extend that to generosity, not holding on. Implicit in that knowing is recognizing when these more positive states of mind are present, but it's very simple in, is it present or not present? And the same with the meditative states, again, not, you should be striving to get concentration, is the mind concentrated or not?

Is it concentrated or not concentrated? So it's these usually group pairs of something's there or not there, some of them are positive, some not. But it's very economists about, let's just look at the mind and see what's there. So, I mean, this is mindfulness. This is yes, this is mindfulness. We're talking about three ways.

We're on the third of four foundations of mindfulness. This is an area where mindfulness can be powerfully developed because again, what is mindfulness? It's the non-judgmental awareness of whatever's happening right now. And we tend to get so caught up in our mind states as being us as if we've invited them.

I feel greed right now. Therefore, I'm a greedy person, what a terrible person. No, we're doing here on the cushion and it can be of course carried out into off the cushion or free range life, but is just noticing what's happening without any judgment about it. Like this is in the mind, I didn't invite it.

And by the way, then that raises all sorts of very healthy questions about who's, who's mind is this anyway? How is this whole situation operating? As you said before, what are the point of developing all this mindfulness is to deconstruct this deeply wired idea we have of self. Yes, yes. And this sense, as I said, of a very judgmental sense of self,

not being good enough. And this is just see it as it is. And then, again, if we have the understanding or the practice of the teachings, this wise view about what is intention and what's creating this and choice. It's a whole challenging area who get into about free will or determinism. That's, I don't want to go there at the moment, but it is one of the questions,

you know, how is this all happening? This is what the Buddha was really interested in. Not in any abstract philosophical sense, but in this really moment to moment. Okay, if I know that greed is present in the mind, but I'm aware of it, I'm mindful of it. What happens to the greed? Yes, it evaporates. It's this crazy magical thing.

I have this realization up at the inside meditation society where you have taught many, many retreats, where I was on retreat a couple of years ago. No, maybe a year ago, whatever, it doesn't matter. I realized if I'm suffering, there's something I'm not mindful of. Exactly. When you're aware of it, even if it's unpleasant back to your vagueness, the suffering goes away. You can cut a decouple the suffering from the pain. Yes, and that's important, because pain can still be there. Things can still be really difficult.

You know, mindfulness and meditation doesn't do away with the first noble truth about suffering. But it when we shift our relationship to it, we see what we add to what's unpleasant, which is the resistance, the fear, the judgment, the blame, you know, that whole trajectory we can be on, and the power of seeing something clearly and not being reactive to it. Again, when that happens to people for the first time, it's almost mind blowing, because nothing has changed. You know, I've lost my partner or my dog or this illness is really difficult for me

but when I hold it with mindfulness, compassion and equanimity, the mind doesn't have to be caught in that struggle, that suffering. Doesn't mean that everything is okay, but there's some balance there that... I mean, it can radically shift. Radically. And it doesn't mean the struggle and suffering won't reassert itself in one nanosecond later, but it is the ability to summon the mindfulness can moment by moment, which is by the way, moments are where we're living our actual life.

Yes. Be a tool to, in aggregate, turn down the volume of the body. And again, to just cross-link all these lists, that's the third noble truth, which is the cessation of suffering. And you can view that as a sort of long-distance goal, what the Buddha experienced, the final and uprooting of all suffering, or moment-to-moment with that kind of clarity of seeing, there can be that freedom, that possibility, and that's really the power of mindfulness is allowing us access to that.

Fourth foundation of mindfulness. So the fourth is a challenging one. The term in the text is Dhammas, and we've been using this word a few times, and it's challenging both because that word in and of itself has a number of meanings. It can mean the truth of things, just the reality of things. Usually we use that dharma singular is what the Buddha's teaching or the truth of things. But the fourth foundation is actually plural dharma's. Dhammas. So you're saying dhammas? Yes. So Dama with an R, and I have an Australian accent, so it's hard for me to say my R's,

but it's Sanskrit. And the way I tend to say it is what is called the Pali language, which is the language of these teachings, in our tradition, we're handed down, and then you would say Dama. So it's the same word, Dama, and Dama. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, and so I tend to go back and forth interchangeably, means the same thing, which is a lot of

things. So yes, it usually means the teachings of the Buddha, the way things are. It can also mean a thing. This water bottle is a Dhamma. It's another simple way of using that term, but this is holding up a water bottle. The fourth foundation, it's a list of lists and what it does, it's the big picture of how we actually practice to see in these ways we've been talking about. The other foundations of mindfulness are the foundations, they're kind of the bedrock of the practice of literally what you do moment to moment, noticing the body, the breath, this sense of pleasant and unpleasant neutral, the mind and what's in the mind. In the fourth foundation,

it talks about what do you actually do when you notice you're having a difficult experience? So the first of the list is the hindrances, which is a very familiar list to anyone who's been on a meditation retreat because it sees five difficult experiences that happen, especially when you meditate, they can happen at any time, of course, but again, a wanting sense desire, of pushing away, of restlessness, of sleepiness, and of doubt. And then it says, it invites the meditator to know, of doubt. And then it says, it invites the meditator to know, what are the conditions that support or increase one of those experiences of the hindrances of sleepiness or restlessness? What are the conditions that allow that to dissipate? And how to basically not encourage the conditions that allow say sleep, sleepiness to develop.

And so we're invited into engaging skillfully with whatever's difficult in our meditation practice. So the simple one is sleepiness. Anyone who's ever meditated has gotten sleepy. It probably happens many times a day. It happens to everyone. It doesn't matter how long you've meditated or how bright your mind is.

You can be wide awake going in and you sit down and meditate, and all of the signals to your body are, it's usually quiet, hopefully. You've meditated and some way quiet doesn't have to be, of course, but you're closing your eyes. Usually you're calming yourself down, just relaxing with your breath, and those signals are all the same as what we give ourselves when we take a nap or go to bed at night. So it's tendency to sleepiness is really strong. And so at the start of the fourth foundation of mindfulness, you know what those conditions are, and what would be a skillful way of engaging with that. So what the fourth foundation provides for us, again, is a map within a map of how to skillfully encourage mindfulness and right view and

clear seeing in our meditation practice, certainly, because these are talking about mindfulness. But in our lives, we just start to know that. And so it starts with difficult states, it looks at other lists. But its theme always is see how this thing is constructed. If it's a helpful thing, how do you keep creating the conditions that are helpful? So one of the lists in there, the seven factors of awakening, which is this beautiful list that talks about, you know, what are the qualities that the Buddha was said to have developed and that we can develop in our meditation practice?

How do you support those developing? Can you recognize whether they're present or not? Because the fourth foundation starts off just the same as the third one does. Where we're asked to see, is this quality present or not present? If it's a difficult quality, what are the conditions that enable it to arise? And what could you do

skillfully to not support that arising? If it's a skillful one like the seven factors of awakening these beautiful qualities of mind, again, is it present or not present? Even that's helpful. Is the awakening factor of joy present in the mind? And if it's not, what would be skillful in my life or in this moment to have more access to that. So it's sort of giving us support for developing. It doesn't tell you exactly how to do these things, but that's part of the brilliance of the Buddha's teachings. He gives you the basic bare bones of the map and each of us have to figure it out for ourselves. What helps me work with sleepiness or restlessness or this endless sense

desire that I might have? What works for me and the same with the positive qualities? What's really skillful for me? So it's step by step goes through both working with what's difficult, developing what's beautiful in the mind, seeing the nature of this mind and body again in this way of deconstructing it, and then it finishes with the four noble truths. And again, seeing them in our practice, the first noble truth as you went through, I wouldn't say that life is suffering. I think that's how you framed it.

I always say there is suffering in life. It's suffering is inevitable. It's often translated though as the first noble truth as life is suffering in life. It's suffering is inevitable. It's often translated though as the first nibble droop as life is suffering. By whom? I don't know that out in the world. Yeah. If you Google quote unquote life is suffering. Yes. Google is very helpful and not always completely correct. Yes. Especially the word suffering is a problematic. Yes. Especially the word suffering is a problematic. Yes.

Because Duka, which you, a word you've invoked in this discussion, is the word he used, but it's, there's a whole wrap we can go on about what that actually means. And suffering is a kind of a weak translation of that word. It's a both a limited one. Many of the words in polyg and this language, the teachings came to us when we translate them into English, we miss something. So it's good to have a few translations and you write, Dukka. It means a whole raft of things from the slightest sense of something not being okay or right or something missing to the deepest darkest agony and despair. And you could include all of that under this word, dukkas.

So suffering is both kind of heavy-handed and not flexible enough to really include everything. But in this fourth foundation, again, we're really asked to look at what's creating suffering for me in the moment. I think you a moment ago said something like, if I'm suffering, I'm not either not seeing something or I'm resisting something. And so we're invited to look. So this is more, how is this experience constructed? We begin with the first foundation. It's just very basic. I'm a breathing, living being, and I can see below the surface constructs, ideas of what it is to be me. And here we're really looking at the mind and its constructs, and the ones that lead us towards suffering. And it's amazing how often we make choices that lead us into this kind of suffering. And what are the choices we could make

that might make these beautiful qualities of mind and ultimately freedom possible for us? And so it's very much back on us as practitioners. It's not like, if you do this, this, and this, you're good to go. Everything's gonna work out. It's like it's a constant practice of seeing, or the mind is going in this direction, Oh, okay. Awareness, choice, skillful response, compassion, equity, acceptance, letting go,

redirecting the attention, all sorts of possibilities there. But we have to learn that for ourselves. So those skills become integrated into our being as more the default mechanism than the chasing after what's pleasant and the pushing away, what's unpleasant. So, just last question from me. So you've done this amazing overview of the four foundations of mindfulness. I can imagine listeners saying, okay, many interesting things were said, what do I do with all of this in my practice?

Yes. Because there's in my practice? Yes. Because there's so much here. Yes. Well, that's why we call it practice, is you really do have to put some extended time into learning how to integrate all of these different teachings and practices. So there's two basic responses. I would say one is there's lots of great books out there about particularly what I've just been talking about about the Four Foundations Mindfulness and his plug,

one of which is Joseph Goldstein's book, Cold Mindfulness. And it's... I have a note here to plug Joseph's book. So that's a very in-depth overview of this topic. And one of the things he does in that book and and I'm sorry to jump in, is he does a lot of the explication and exploration that you've just done of each of the foundations, and then he talks about ways that you can explore various aspects on your own. Yes, it's a very practice oriented book.

I think there's practices and exercises at the end. It's really from talks he's given at retreats to people who are practicing. And, you know, I talked before about lists and lists within lists, the four foundations of mindfulness there are many, so it's a big, thick book. There's a lot in it. But what I was mainly pointing to is, you know, there's reading. You can do about these practices and the ideas that I'm talking about. But the most important thing is your own practice.

So whether it's a daily practice supported by something like the app and getting instruction there, but definitely going on retreat. The four foundations of mindfulness are the foundation of what we teach, at pretty much every retreat. We might use that language even specifically, but that's what we teach, and pretty much every retreat. We might use that language even specifically, but that's what we'll be going into on a daily basis.

And just the time spent, you know, hour after hour, and there are many hours on a meditation retreat from early in the morning to late at night, just absorbing and integrating this as a way of being and a way of relating to your experience, it becomes more integrated. but it does take time. These are, especially the fourth foundation of mindfulness. It's not simple.

If you read it, it's really all of the Buddha's teachings are in that one section. The four foundations of mindfulness ends with an exhortation. It's a discourse. So the way these teachings came down to us, the Buddha gave them, orally. There weren't podcasts and recordings back then. People weren't scribing things out.

He spoke this to a group of monks and nuns and laypeople. But at the end, there's this exhortation where he says, you know, if someone were to really practice these four foundations for seven years intensively One of two things would happen to them and basically says you had to get fully enlightened or you get really close And then he keeps numbering down seven years six years five years four years three years one year one year if you practice for one year You'd be at this really amazing place of freedom. And then he counts down from there, six months, five months, four months, and he ends up with, if someone really practiced

these four foundations of mindfulness for seven days, one of these two fruits would be available to them either. Full awakening or getting really close. So we often say that to people, if you're heading out on a one-week retreat, this is what the Buddha said was possible. But I think it means you'd also have to be mindful every moment of those waking days and some level of clarity. But we often say, you know, enlightenment guaranteed seven days, that's what the Buddha said. But it's not

easy. Any of us that have tried to meditate know the mind is fickle and flighty and conditioned and habits and memories tend to rule us most of the time. And this is, as the Buddha said, going against the stream, against that stream. But his teachings always were about what leads to more happiness, what leads to more peace and well-being, and always this emphasis, not just on stress reduction or being just happy, but this possibility that he spoke about again and again of ultimate freedom, ultimate happiness, that he himself discovered. If we want to learn more about you, how can we do so? I teach a lot at Spirit Rock, and so there's a page there for me,

so people can click on there. And if I ever think to update Spirit Rock with what I'm doing, that would be listed there. One of the easiest ways to access me and many of the teachers in our lineage is through a website called dharmaseed.org. That's dharma with an R. That's dharma with an R, dharmaseed.org. We'll put a link in the show notes.

Yes, and so I've got hundreds of talks up there that I've given at retreats and classes as well as hundreds of other teachers. It's a great resource if people don't already know about it. So, some ways that's the best way. I'm glad you mentioned dharmaseed. You said people want to learn here, Sally give the Dharma talks that are every evening on a retreat, one of the teachers will get up and speak for 45 to 60 minutes and Sally's specialty is really diving into the teachings of the Buddha and giving very accessible

explanations and practical, because she'll guide you toward ways you can explore these teachings in your own life. So if you go to dharmac.org, search under her name, hundreds of talks will come up, you pretty much can't go wrong. You did a great job with this. Thank you very much, really appreciate it.

It was a pleasure. Thank you. Big thanks to Sally and big thanks to the team who works so hard to put this together. Samuel Johns, our senior producer and Marissa Schneiderman, our producer, our sound designer's Matt Boynton and Anya Sheshe, Kavoltrovilet Audio. My TPH colleagues Ben Rubin, Jen Poient, Nate Toby, Liz Levin, who give us a ton of useful input. And of course my ABC comrades Ryan Kessler and Josh Cohan

will see you on Friday for a bonus. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, hey prime members, you can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.