Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 277: This Conversation Actually Explains Oneness With The Universe | Sebene Selassie

Episode Date: August 26, 2020

I grew up with that famous Groucho Marx joke, “I wouldn’t want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.” It always resonated with me. As my grandfather would say, “I resemble that remark.” We all know that belonging -- to a tribe, a family, a group of any sort -- is a key part of human happiness; science bears this out. But my guest today, Sebene Selassie, is taking this concept of belonging to a much, much deeper level. To the “oneness with the universe” level. That’s obviously one of the world’s greatest spiritual cliches, but in her new book, Seb unpacks and defends the concept incredibly effectively. The book is called “You Belong.” Seb is a writer and teacher based in Brooklyn. She is a regular on the Ten Percent Happier app. And she is a great and valued friend. Where to find Sebene Selassie online: Website: https://www.sebeneselassie.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/sebeneselassie Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sebeneselassie Book Mentioned: You Belong by Sebene Selassie: https://www.sebeneselassie.com/youbelong We care deeply about supporting you in your meditation practice, and feel that providing you with high quality teachers is one of the best ways to do that. Customers of the Ten Percent Happier app say they stick around specifically for the range of teachers, and the deep wisdom they impart, to help them deepen their practice. For anyone new to the app, we've got a special discount just for you. If you're an existing subscriber, we thank you for your support. To claim your discount, visit tenpercent.com/august Other Resources Mentioned: Coach Chela Davison - https://www.cheladavison.com/ The Four Elements Meditation - https://10percenthappier.app.link/FourElementsPod Additional Resources: Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/sebene-selassie-277 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast on Dan Harris. Before we get to the episode, we care really deeply about supporting you in your meditation practice and feel that providing you with high quality teachers is one of the best ways to do that. Customers of the 10% happier app say they stick around specifically for the range of teachers and the deep wisdom these teachers have to impart.

For anybody new to the app, we've got a special discount for you and if you're an existing subscriber, we thank you for your support. So to go claim your discount, visit 10% dot com slash August. That's 10% one word all spelled out dot com slash August. Hello, I don't know about you, but I grew up with that famous groucho Marx joke. I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member. It's one of the

opening jokes in the great movie Annie Hall. And it always resonated pretty deeply with me as my grandfather would say, I resemble that remark. We all know that belonging to a tribe, a family, a group of any sort is a key part of human happiness. Science bears this out. We've talked about it on the show many, many times. But my guest today, Seb and I Salassi, is taking this concept of belonging to a much, much deeper level to the oneness with the universe level. That's obviously one of the world's greatest spiritual clichés oneness. But in her new book, Seb unpacks and defends this concept But in her new book, Seb unpacks and defends this concept incredibly effectively. The book is called You Belong. It's great. I read it. I highly recommend it. And Seb, with whom many of you will be familiar, she is a writer and teacher based in Brooklyn.

She's a regular on the 10% happier app. She's also a great and valued friend. So I'm delighted to bring this interview to you. Here we go. Seven A. Celacii. Well, let me start with congratulations. I don't think I've this interview to you. Here we go. Seven Ace of Lassi. Well, let me start with congratulations. I don't think I said this to you directly just because I just finished the book recently, but you did a great job with this book. It's fantastic. Oh, thank you, Dan. That means a lot coming from you, really. It's compelling. You got a compelling theme and you also got incredibly raw personal stories and a lot of practical advice. So it's all that's the full package. Oh, that's good to hear. I'm glad. Let's talk about what you mean by belonging because I picked up the book. I thought,

oh, this is going to be a book about the importance of, you know, having your people, having interpersonal connection with a place where you feel you can belong as that word is traditionally understood. And yes, that is in this book, but it's a way deeper, much more holistic view of the word. So can you just describe what you mean by it? Yeah, you know, I do mean kind of the two sides of it. You're describing kind of a more personal, maybe mundane, what sometimes called the relative truth of belonging that we can connect to other people and feel that sense of personal connection to our folks. But I'm also talking about what sometimes called the absolute truth and

Buddhism, the truth of our interconnection and the undeniable fact of our belonging to everything that actually nothing is separate and ancient wisdom, including Buddhism tells us this, but also science points to that, that there's much more interconnection on an energetic level than we can really proceed with our ordinary senses. Interconnection and this is a user waters we've applied on the show many times. I've always understood it intellectually but not really gotten it because I always still come back to like I feel like me over here and you're not me. I feel connected with you in many ways, but I'm still me. And in this book, you've done a better job

of helping me kind of understand that. And one of your mechanisms you use is the notion of paradox. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes, paradox is the truth of our reality and this truth I alluded to, it's called the two truths of the absolute truth, and the relative truth is a central paradox of really all spiritual traditions and in Buddhism itself, that it's hard for our minds to kind of grapple

with or wrap around the fact that we are interconnected. Science shows us this. Physics has shown the energetic truth of non-separation that we're all vibrating energy on a profound and deep level that we can't perceive. and that is true at the same time that it's true. You are you over there and I'm me over here and I'm sitting on a chair and I'm sitting at a desk and these are objects in reality, but it doesn't cancel the fact that there's an energetic interconnection at the heart of things. And again, this is kind of goes against our logical mind,

it goes against our senses. So paradox is something that we have to accept on a deep level. Why was this theme of belonging so important to you to explore in the book? Well, I mentioned in the book that I wrote this book over a year, but I've kind of been living the themes of this book my entire life. And so belonging became important because I didn't feel it for so long. So I came to a spiritual search for it through the Dharma and through different practices,

but really I felt it on a more relative or social level from a really young age, immigrating here when I was three from Africa, from Ethiopia, and growing up black and white neighborhoods. And, you know, I've been on this podcast before talking about kind of what that's like, that feeling that you don't belong. And I fundamentally believe that this crisis of belonging is showing up for many of us, regardless of whether we grow up in homogenous communities where we do look like everyone around us or not,

because we can be made to feel that we don't belong because we're not successful enough or smart enough or we have ideas about how we should look or seem or be that are fed to us by advertising by the media. So this crisis of belonging I experienced in a unique way, but I think all of us have greater or lesser experiences or degrees of it. You talk a lot about in a very non-sappy, approachable way, this concept of loving yourself.

And what I took from that, and this may be just a straight lift, is if there are parts of yourself that you're at war with, then you've got separation internally, and that blocks you from feeling connected to other people. Is that an accurate summation in some ways? Yeah, definitely. That's a really beautiful summation.

That delusion of separation, only believing one side of the paradox that we're separate, that we're different, that we don't belong, that plays out both in our sense of feeling connected to others. But it also can make us feel disconnected from ourselves and have parts of ourselves that we're trying to get rid of, that we're trying to constantly change or improve.

And that doesn't mean that we don't have aspirations for growth and for transformation, but we're not doing that in contention with the reality of who we are. We're allowing ourselves to grow in kind of a more natural way that comes from this loving care and attention. And I talk a few times about the contention with reality of a more natural way that comes from this loving care and attention. And I talk, I think, a few times about the contention with reality being kind of a fundamental

part of the teachings and a fundamental part of not belonging. When we're in contention with who we are or how we are, that causes that sense of separation or unhappiness. And we are who we are because of what we've been through, why would we be any different? What are the parts of you that you find difficult? Oh my God, I don't know if we have enough time, Dan. Well, I'm asking this because you are very brave in the book in discussing this. So you can give us the abridged version or we can do a little free therapy. I'll always take therapy.

You know, it's everything from the physical reality and that started young. I had all sorts of things I didn't like about myself. I started to be aware of my body and ways that were being observed by others. So I thought my legs were too skinny or my nose was too big or my boobs were too small or you know any number of physical attributes that I have contention with and then as I started to get older noticing parts of myself seeing patterns that I had and really being unhappy with those that I have a lot of envy or I can I have or I can, I have domineering tendencies, so I can tend to be and know it all. I like to joke, or I did joke with my roommate of many years, my best friend, Peter Birch,

out at Peter, that he was allowed to be right on Tuesdays. And that these things show up in kind of sometimes subtle ways, sometimes not so subtle ways, but when I see them, when I see them clearly, it doesn't make me happy. I want to get rid of them and what practice and what therapy and different self-awareness techniques and teachings have taught me is to really see those clearly, but then meet them with kindness and that paradoxical transformative power of practice is that when we do that, when we meet things with clarity and kindness, if they're problematic, they can start to dissolve.

So what does that look like in practice? How am I listening at home and I want to try this? What does it look like? So I'll take one, the need to want to be right, which shows up a lot with my partner, my husband, Frederick, that for the early years and many years of our now 12-year relationship, we would kind of battle because he has that tendency too. So our conversations would almost feel like arguments. And I couldn't really track energetically in my body or in my mind that that was happening.

I was just lost in the pattern. And then as I started to notice that pattern and also explore it with him, I could catch it a little bit earlier and just feel maybe mid, not an argument as in a fight, but an argument as in a very intense discussion. I could feel that energy and just sort of observe it and allow it and allow it to dissipate. And now, more often than not,

it doesn't even manifest into kind of trying to out-argue. I'll notice that he says something that annoys me or I disagree with, and I can actually stop before I start this pattern of speech or this habit of arguing and just allow it to dissipate and disappear. And sometimes it's not even showing up as often as it used to. I imagine this is the fruit of formal meditation practice in some ways. You enter the dojo, the gym of formal meditation practice, either seated or standing or lying down, and I know you like to meditate lying down. And you watch your mind, including the stuff that's hard, probably mostly the stuff that's hard, and practice over and over again, instead of rejecting it, welcoming it with some warmth and some non-lack of judgment,

so that what it shows up in that conversation with Freddie about, you know, what's the best French restaurant in your section of Brooklyn or whatever, you're able to not follow the impulse to say something that's going to have 72 hours of negative consequences for your relationship. That's almost exactly right, except that Fredrick Sitalian and Danish and he would never want to go to the frontress. But yes, it's so true that what we experience on the cushion is going to be ourselves in any moment. Most of our thoughts are not original. A lot of the habit patterns that we witness when we're in formal meditation are the same habit patterns

we're going to bring into our lives. So for years, when I'd meditated, even on retreat, I would kind of play out arguments in my head. You know, I'd have an argument with that person on retreat who's been annoying me for the past few weeks of retreat, or I would reimagine arguments I'd had in the past, or invent ones that I might have in the future. So that argument, a mentative nature of mine is part of my, my patterning, it's part of my conditioning. So what we see in our formal practice is usually what we're carrying into our

relational life to work to our family dynamics. I'm a baby at this kind of, you know, for lack of a less the syrupy term self-love, especially when compared with you, but mindfulness practice, and this is just my experience, just straight up mindfulness practice where you follow the breath, or you know, you're watching the breath coming in and going out, and then every time you get distracted start again There are other ways to do straight-up mindfulness practice, but that kind of practice didn't get me as far in this regard as Meta practice where you're using

phrases maybe happy et cetera, et cetera and directing it toward a variety of beings, including yourself. Is that your experience as well? You know, I think that there's parts of what you're saying that I can relate to, especially towards myself. So it might be because I'm gendered this way or racialized this way, but my meta towards other people was maybe unhealthily so, but quite developed in the sense that I was always taught to take care of other people and think about other people first. But really, what I had to practice in terms of meta was self-meta.

And I had a teacher who actually assigned it to me as my primary practice for six months. So I only did self-meta for six months. This was after my first cancer diagnoses and it was really challenging for me to make that my full practice. But that I found really helpful. But I also think that there is a way in which maybe modern mindfulness or kind of the Western mind

approach to mindfulness forgets to imbue our mindfulness practice with that kindness. And technically as far as the classical teaching say mindfulness always coerizes meta. If it doesn't, it's actually just paying attention. It's not true mindfulness. And we've talked about this before, Dan, that that attention quality, like paying attention of mindfulness is really important, but that meeting with whatever we see with kindness and care is that meta that arises with mindfulness.

And in moments where I was just kind of applying the classical teachings of mindfulness, of just bringing awareness, but I was doing it in such a way that was very present, very receptive, not imbued with my tendencies for striving or trying to get somewhere. That meta naturally arose. It really that feeling of mindfulness that is all caring. that feeling of mindfulness that is all caring. It brings us to another paradox that you'd write about, which is that you have to study the self, I believe you said, in order to forget the self. Do I have that right? Yeah, that's still good. So not me, Aizen Master and a originator of the Soto School of Zen.

So to study the Buddha way, he said, is to study the self. And to study the self is to forget the self. And to forget the self is to become one with myriad things, with all things. And that is a paradoxical kind of co-anish saying, but in practice, I think we can have glimpses of that. That when we are fully present like that, I remember the first time I experienced mindfulness as being imbued with this meta or loving kindness. I was on retreat at IMS and this moment of this full awareness, like embodied awareness of the present moment and this feeling of kindness of caring just kind of weld up. And it wasn't about me, it just sort of permeated everything around me. I kind of

looked around me at that moment and looked at the hall and the other people and it just filled with so much care and in my awareness. Right. And so that is how we get to, and I'm just looking for you to correct my understanding here, that that I think is how we, when we can start seeing that we can heal whatever separations, little wars we've got going on internally, then that opens the door to this feeling of connection and belonging to the whole world, all of it. Yes, on a deep level, yes. And most of the time in our daily meditation practice, we might not be feeling that. So, we can know that as a possibility, we can recognize maybe small glimpses of it.

And it doesn't even have to be only in formal meditation. It could be a moment of presence with our child or in nature. But we can start to be attuned to that possibility. One of the little, it's not very little in my case at least, one of the wars that you identify that you've seen raging in your own mind and I see raging a lot in my own is use this phrase, the pathology of productivity. Yeah, that's a coach I've worked with,

Chela, Davidson, it's her phrase. And you know, when I heard it, it was one of those phrases that is like embarrassingly apt, that I could identify with it so much, but it felt a lot of shame about that too. Because I see how I can use productivity as a way to basically try and belong, try and feel better about myself, to try and feel like I'm making progress in some way in my life, in my career, in my meditation practice, whatever it is. But it does become a pathology. It becomes the way I kind of measure how well I'm doing or not. And it's a big trap. And I think with all of us more attached to our gadgets than ever, I know for me it's been creeping up a lot more.

I have to take really concerted effort to make breaks and to create time where I'm not being productive. And that includes my meditation practice that that's not the goal. and that includes my meditation practice, that that's not the goal. Any advice? This is a huge theme in my inner life. I really have had to keep coming back to boundaries

especially with technology. And it's so hard right now because we are in another paradox that this is the thing that maybe is connecting us to teachings, connecting us to others, giving us a place to practice or a way to tune in to things that we find important. But it's such a slippery slope. Each of these devices can bring us closer into just opening up another app or my tendency is to go on to Instagram or Twitter or the New York

Times homepage. And so how do we create boundaries while also using this technology to support us in our aspirations to have more space. And then sometimes we just have to turn it off. We just have to leave the phone in another room or go outside without your gadgets. And that can be fraught, too, because sometimes, I think we spoke about this on the episode about race. We witnessed racial aggression, and we couldn't document it between police and some black youth and our neighborhood because we had left

our phones at home because we were trying to create more space. So there are choices to be made and consequences for those choices too. How are you doing these days? And I know this is something we've talked about, but it's been a few months. How are you doing these days on feelings of belonging when it comes to America's racial reckoning that's happening right now? You know, it's definitely a process. I have really relished the time to have spaces for people of color and for black people relish the time to have spaces for people of color and for black people and to have specific spaces to practice together and process together. And I know you've advocated for this and there are a lot of white people doing the same. And at the same time, I really value places where we're not only talking about these realities.

And this is kind of how we can sway between those two paradoxes, and they're both true, that we are different, we have these different realities, these different histories, they come with issues of inequality and oppression and injustice, and we are all interconnected, and not just humans. We're interconnected with all beings, with all of nature, we are nature. And depending on where we're coming from, what our tendencies are, what our versions, and grasping are, we can want to lean towards one or the other more. So some people want to kind of cling to the harmony of, oh, we're all one, do we have to deal with this difficulty and challenge? But we can also want

to cling to kind of the complexity and the difficulty and get caught there, maybe because it's our work or our calling. But I have had sort of a longing for the practices and the teachings that really helped me balance out all of that complexity and difference too. So sometimes you want to engage in the complexity and be really be hashing these issues out, which are painful but also invigorating. And sometimes you want to be on a more placid, some fundamental level, we're all deeply connected

and you want to be in that space. Yeah, and I don't even know if it's placid so much as the truth of non-separation, it's spacious to me more than placid. It's really, it has a freedom about it. That is, it can feel really alive, too. It doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have to feel calm, but there's that truth of interconnection.

And again, we really need to each of us look at where we tend to gravitate towards, which we understand and which we maybe don't. And it's that constant balancing. You've been using this phrase in talking about what's been happening for the last few months. You've been using this phrase, the revolution will not be secularized. What do you mean by that?

So in this book, I do a bit of a dive into our tendency as moderns to hold up science as the arbiter of all truth and dismiss things that we are less verifiable in ways that we're comfortable with. And with that, I think we've thrown some babies in ways that we're comfortable with. And with that, I think we've thrown some babies out with that bath water. So there are a lot of mysteries to these practices and to the truth of our interconnection.

So even science, physics being one can't really explain some things that are known to be true, like the fact that electron separated can experience the same reality, so what affects one will affect the other far away. And we're talking about a few meters away, we're talking about thousands of miles away, they're doing this experiments now. And the truth of that kind of vibrating pulse of energy at the source of all matter, the truth

that we all, everything in our universe originated from a tiny, tiny point that's infinitesimally small. We can't even fathom it. So everything originated from nothing. We're literally stardust. So all of those mysteries are not explainable by measurements or brain scans and the mysteries of the body, of consciousness.

And in some ways, this reliance on science and data and experiments has infiltrated the way we think of our social reality too, and how we're going to solve our problems is only through logic and reason. And I believe that there's more to things like meta or heart practices, which are basically like magical thinking. We sit and wish well to other people who aren't with us. And we know this has a powerful effect on our bodies. That's been able to be verified and studied. But do we

believe that maybe this is having a powerful effect on other bodies and other people and beings as well? So when you say the revolution out will not be secularized, is that in any way a critique of the current BLM movement? No, actually, I think the BLM movement itself is well aware of this and a lot of movements that come out of communities of color. You know, if we always point to these sort of powerful leaders throughout time like Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi or Desmond Tutu, these are all spiritual leaders. They also happen to be people of color. So perhaps much more rooted in the truth of Indigenous wisdom, which relies on more than just

the material reality. So prayer and meditation and this understanding of non-separation has been the ground of many spiritual movements and many people and parts of BLM are very connected to that as well. Just picking up on some of the strands from the last two answers of yours. The book really mounts a compelling defense of what people like me sometimes, I now see somewhat inappropriately right off as quote unquote woo woo. Yes. So I kind of go through a conversation about how we can question woo-woo, and I use the phrase woo-woo too. It's not, I'm not trying to police people's language that they can't use that, but just

to notice, when we use that, what we're dismissing, and how often those dismissals run along the same lines as a lot of indigenous ways of knowing, which often are very much rooted in an acknowledgment of mystery, and the great mystery is part of the understanding of our reality. So there's a real connection to this absolute truth of interconnection that is not necessarily recognizable by our ordinary senses. So one of the things I didn't talk about really in the book because it was happening while I was writing it, but I was doing a lot of kind of ancestral practices when I was writing the book. So every morning I would, I have a lot of ancestor alters, but I have a main ancestor altar with pictures of my mom and my grandparents and other people who've passed away. And I would sort of light candles and make offerings to that altar

before I wrote every morning. And basically almost bully them into helping me. I find that notion challenging in an interesting way. What do you reckon it did for you to make offerings on an altar of pictures of your forebears? You know, a lot of creative people and writers have rituals, so part of it was just having a ritual that helped sort of frame my writing process and gave some structure to my process. I would wake up very early. I would make a cup of matcha, I would come in, I would light some incense and light the candles

and sort of say a little desperate prayer to them and then I would start writing. And then when I finished writing, I would blow out the candles and know that it's done. So having that kind of ritual for our particular processes, whether they're creative or just daily general life, I think, is helpful. And then really exploring this truth that our ancestors are with us, if we don't believe it on a kind of woo-woo energetic, they're all around us in another dimension kind of way, we know it on a scientific and fundamental level. Right, so we not only inherit our physical genetic material from our ancestors,

so your ancestors are literally inside you because you have certain color skin and eyes and certain shape of your body. But we also know that epigenetic material is handed down. So certain experiences and tendencies, including anxieties, but also our strengths, our predilections, and our ways of being are also inherited. And so in a sense, our ancestors are here anyways. I guess one area where I struggle with this is just personal, which is the more I know about my ancestors, at least my sort of the ones I knew and now have no more about. I look back at my family trees,

just filled with addicts and crooks and cranks. And so like the idea of summoning them, I don't know what assistance they could provide. Well, you know, we call on the best of our ancestors. So sometimes people say, our wives and well ancestors. But I say the wisdom and wellness of all our ancestors, right? Because you inherited maybe some of those tendencies that were seem like, and probably were unskilful behavior, but were probably just survival mechanisms, right? But you also inherited a lot of great aspects.

You know, you're a successful, intelligent, kind, good person. And some of those strengths came through from your ancestors as well, because all of our ancestors survived if we're here, right? Our ancestors got far enough so that we are alive today. And that means they survived pandemics and intercultural strife and war. And all of the things we're trying to survive today. So we can call on that as well. I had a lot of great ancestors too, just for the record.

Some complicated ones. Somebody was telling me recently about a great uncle of mine who used to drive around with a clergy sign in his window so we could get free parking spaces. Well, you know, it suffice it to say a member of the clergy. Yeah, you could say that you got your cunning from him. I guess so. Much more of my conversation with Seven A. Celacie right after this. Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time, pure honor, and earth?

And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is Short, with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others.

And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times.

But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like, if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow Life is Short, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wondering App. So speaking of me, there is a little section in here where you write about a debate we had about the use of the term white supremacy. You want to say more about that? Yeah, I hope you liked that little shout out, Cammy, how you got in the book. It wasn't the most flattering shout out, but go ahead. Well, you know, it's interesting because I think I shared this with you that

for the final pass of the book, I had to change that part a bit because, you know, the use of white supremacy has probably increased like a thousandfold in the past few months. What felt kind of daring to talk about six months ago is like old hat now that every corporation is tweeting Black Lives Matter. So I started to, in what's the final version of the book, really explore what it means to maybe be able to acknowledge white supremacy externally in institutions

or in about white supremacists, but not really want to explore it internally as patterns of thought or behavior that are playing out consciously or unconsciously within us. Just to be clear, so that I remember you and I were sitting in Rosa, Mexicana, as such, a chain of Mexican restaurants in New York City. And you were talking about white supremacy. And I raised this, this is way before, you know, the recent tumult.

This is before the pandemic before George Floyd, Brown, a tailor. And I raised the question, and I think I've read an earlier version of the book than the one that's coming out, but I remember saying, you know, is there some risk to you to using the term white supremacy because some of the people that you'd like to reach might get confused by that and or put off by that. And then you've activated there a mig de la and you won't be able to talk to them. Yes, it was also back when we used to go to restaurants. Yes, and you know, let's be clear it's white people we're talking about and I do address that directly,

sort of imploring the white reader and maybe anyone else who is uncomfortable with the term And maybe anyone else who is uncomfortable with the term to really stay with me in why this is really important to understand because these structures of white supremacy and other biases are within us. And this process of mindfulness of really beginning to understand, see clearly, and meet with kindness, what's going on in our minds, what's going on in our hearts, that is the process for releasing it.

We can't solve the issue of internalized oppression or white supremacy depending who we are and how we're experiencing it. If we can't see it clearly and naming it is a first step to seeing it. Very healthily, I mean, this is totally constant with just how you are and how I know you as a person, but it definitely comes through the book. You turn the lens on yourself and your own flaws in a welcoming way.

And you let you tell the story, but you tell a story in the book about your older sister's doctor. Can you tell that story? No, yeah. So my sister, who's intellectually disabled, I'm her guardian, was having surgery. And I had heard about this doctor that she was having performed the surgery because her house leader had told me about her and said she was really great. And so I got to the hospital up in Hudson waiting for this doctor in the pre-op room with only white doctors and nurses

and technicians except for Juan Filipino nurse. And then the doctor walked in, the surgeon, and she was a black woman, a dark skin black woman. And I was totally shocked. I knew she was a woman because they'd referred to her as she, but I was assuming that I would meet a white person. And so I could see my own bias of how kind of these messages of white supremacy

that doctors are white and often, you know, in the past we would think male had sort of infiltrated my own heart and mind. And, you know, embarrassingly for someone who teaches unconscious bias all the time to see that playing out for myself. And I don't know if I shared in the book because it was cutting things for space.

But the next day, when Finna was in the hospital, I stayed overnight with her in the hospital. I was waiting for the, it was the weekend. So the surgeon was off and she told us another doctor was coming. And I didn't know the gender or the race of this doctor. So I was just, I didn't know. I just knew the name. And that was also a black woman.

And I also was surprised in that moment. So I'm not only slow, I'm super slow. Yeah. Hahaha. Let's talk about another area. And again, just staying with this theme of belonging where one big aspect of it is having this Let's talk about another area and again, just staying with this theme of belonging where one big aspect of it is having this healed relationship with yourself so that you can

be connected with other people. God, it's reminding me, I don't know if I've ever told the story in the podcast before. I remember being like 25 years old, they'd be even younger. And I was having the dissolution of a relationship discussion with a bout to be former girlfriend. And I remember her saying to me, you can't be with anybody if you're not with yourself. And that was coming up for me as I was reading this book. And one sort of, this may seem a little counterintuitive, but it really landed for me.

But one area that you talk about here is dancing as a mode to sort of get ourselves in this direction. How is dancing related? Yeah, we took this vast teaching in the classical teachings called Sakti and we called it mindfulness, which in some ways is a great term. In other ways, it makes us think that it's all about our heads. So one of the things I really point to in my own teachings and really try and practice is how embodied our disconnection is and how we're only going to become

reconnected and free through these bodies. So dance is one place for me to really see how unfree I am. Some people in our culture, especially those of us who are kind of more conditioned by the dominant culture and white culture, we are not so connected to our bodies and we have difficulty with dance. Like a lot of people, I'm uncomfortable or was much more so in the past, dancing in public. I really didn't have a sense of my body dancing. I didn't grow up dancing and talk about kind of the colonial influences that led to that in my own family and my own lineage. But many people grew up in churches or in religious traditions that kind of dismiss or discourage

dancing. And how that really disconnects us from our bodies and from a sense of belonging. Like how ridiculous is it that I'm embarrassed to be in my own body and moving my own body in front of other people? I think it sounds absurd when I stayed it that way, but I think that's a reality that many people, and again, people who might be cultured or influenced in a particular way by dominant culture, can feel that, you know, like not wanting to be the first person on the dance floor, don't want anybody to look at them. And we see how different

it is for people who don't have that patterning yet, especially children. This is a nut that I've not even begun to crack. I mean, I watch my son and how free he is when he's dancing. And last night, actually, we were with my brother. I have one brother and he and his wife have six kids, beautiful kids, it would just incredible. And there was, after dinner, the kids were dancing for us. And we were dancing a little bit with them. But I noticed that when it was my time to get up and dance with them, I felt very watched, self-conscious.

But I want to be able to shed that. And this is why you and I have been talking for years. We haven't been able to get our acts together. I will mostly my fault for me to come out to Brooklyn to do Zumba with you, which we've been talking about for a long time, and we're about to do, actually, I think, right before the pandemic began. And I think we have a date.

Yeah, we had a date to do this. And so, yeah, this seems like a really rich area of exploration for me, at least. Well, first of all, I think we should film that when it happens and make it a special video episode of the podcast. Well, then I won't be self conscious at all. But you know, it's like anything, right?

It's practice. And so often, you know, we practice on our own. That's what we're doing in meditation, right? We're trying to bring mindfulness. We eliminate the distractions. We eliminate the extraneous realities to sort of practice something. So you could practice in your bedroom, and even Bianca doesn't have to be there. This is on my list and not on a long list, on a short list of things that I

aim to do in the not too distant future. You recommend a lot of practices. You want to talk about a few that you think would help us. My favorite practice and one that I'm trying to spread is the practice of the four elements. So mindfulness of the four elements is a traditional and classical practice. It's right there in the first foundation of mindfulness with mindfulness of breath, with mindfulness of body. And it's not really taught a lot in kind of Western mindfulness movements. And to me, it's such a beautiful metaphor for how we are interconnected and how we are nature. We sort of talk about nature,

like it's out there in the woods, far away from the city, but we are nature. And this simple metaphor of earth, fire, water, and air, which are the four elements we are mindful of in our bodies, it's a metaphor for how we're made of the same stuff of everything around us, and that we're not separate from that. And to me, it's such a beautiful practice and connects us also to all these indigenous ways of knowing that have been dismissed have been kind of considered woo-woo because the elements are in every ancient tradition of every continent. So ancient Greece, Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, Qi Gong, you have it in the indigenous teachings of the Americas, in Africa, in ancient Egypt, and Australia. And so it's also a way to come really into contact with that ancient knowing of our interconnections So and I was so excited a couple of years ago 10% happier let me record an elements meditation which you know seemed woo woo probably

Back then, but hopefully become the norm now probably back then, but hopefully it will become the norm now. This notion of we are nature has really struck me over the past couple of years. And I like to use it all the time, the idea because it does dissolve the boundaries between me and the rest of the world. But I'm particularly like using it when I'm looking at the uglier or sillier, more craven aspects of my nature. Look, this is just nature too. Yes, and those craven aspects even can be elemental.

Like there can be a fire equality to some of our anger. There can be a water equality to our depression or a weepiness. And so we don't even have to make it sort of personal or psychological. We can just see that these energies are moving through us all the time. What did I fail to ask? I would just want to encourage us all to explore this balancing, you know, that we can tend as moderns again to dismiss the mystery. That's such a powerful, powerful opportunity for us to feel into something that is true and sometimes inaccessible again with our ordinary senses.

And then we can also get lost in that and not want to deal with the complexities of the truth of our social realities. And so just encouraging people to always explore the balance between those two. Did I give you enough of a chance to sort of state the central thesis? The central thesis is that we are not separate, but we're not the same. So you know that balance that we are interconnected. That's the true-thumbar reality, and we inherit the reality of our differences and all that has brought over the centuries.

We're not separate, but we're not the same. So, I'm not exactly the same as Seven A. Celaci, but it is a closing off of reality that does harm to you and to me, for me to think that there's no connection between us whatsoever. Yes. And, you know, that might be easier to acknowledge between us because we're friends, but can we apply that same type of awareness to the things that we want to feel separate from? So people with whom we disagree, people with whom we have challenges, the current mess

of our political and social realities, we belong to all of it, all of us. Actually, this is a good chance for you to tell you George W. Bush story perhaps. Oh goodness, yeah. It feels like simpler times, but I was not happy with the presidency of George W. Bush. It was around the time of Katrina. And a friend of mine suggested that I do Metta for him. And so, you know, I'd sort of worked through a lot of my own anger. I wouldn't encourage someone to just go and do metta for someone else without kind of tending to their own pain or suffering. But I was sort of caught in loops of real pointed hatred. So I decided to do, make up my own metta practice.

I didn't want to do the phrases, may you be well or whatever with him. I really was trying to understand how I could connect to the truth of our interconnection. At that point through many years of practice, I knew that we were all wound up together, but I wasn't feeling that. So I started this practice where I would every morning, and I did this for weeks,

I would kind of go through George Bush's life, and I would imagine him as a fetus inside Barbara. And I would imagine him as a fetus inside Barbara Bush. I would imagine him as a baby. I would imagine him going to school and experiencing what he did from what I knew of his life, his addiction issues, and then his political career. And I just kind of did this practice every day.

It's just kind of a strange practice. It's not a classical practice as far as I know. And a few weeks into it, I really understood not from a strange practice, it's not a classical practice as far as I know. And a few weeks into it, I really understood not from a conceptual level, because I already understood if I lived George Bush's life, I'd be George Bush. But on a deeper and fundamental level, I realized, oh, I would be George Bush if I had lived his life. And it really helped me see how my contention with people kind of needing them to be different than they were, to see things the way I see things, which, you know, again, was a big kind of place of my contraction in arguing that I was sort of going against reality, that there

was a way in which I was creating, suffering for myself by thinking that someone should be different than they are. And that didn't solve all my problems. It certainly didn't resolve my political anger forever, but there was a shift in that moment for me in how I kind of meet the political realities that I confront, that there's a way in which I can understand that when I expect someone to be different than they are, there's also a level of superiority in my separation from them. As if somehow, if I were them, I would think differently.

But does that neuter your ability to fight for change? No, because it's being in contention with reality of the present moment. It's not dissolving my longing for something to change in the future. It's just meeting the present moment reality without draining my energy for a better past. You know, when we're wishing for things to have been different for someone to be different than they are, it's a drain of our energy. Like, we can't change the past, we can't change who they are, we can't change their karma or their trajectory or conditioning. All we can do is sometimes fight for and demand change in this moment. I've kind of given up needing people

to be different than they are. And what comes from that, and I've experienced in myself, is the sense of superiority and domination that that can kind of unleash me. When I need someone to be different than they are, it often comes out in the form of domination. So belittling someone for how they are or shaming people for how they are,

that it's sort of prevented me from that kind of behavior. And so just to name that, this is kind of complex territory. And so it's not something we can explore, you know, sort of at the end of a podcast in a sound bite that this is something that the great spiritual social justice leaders of our time have talked about for ages. And so exploring the teachings of Martin Luther King Jr. or you know, some of the teachers of healing justice and social justice movements that are based in transformation, in abolition, and true freedom that we have

to dive into those explorations and those conversations to really understand it well. But I would just say, and again, I know we're not going to be able to do a full exegesis of this. And again, I know we're not going to be able to do a full exegesis of this. But isn't there some self-interest and enlightened self-interest in having our actions here, turning down the volume on superiority and separation might refresh us and give us more energy to do the work we want to do. Yes, definitely. And it's also just the truth of the nature of reality. Right. Fighting against the truth is saps your energy. It does. And it's also not seeing things clearly.

And that's what this work of Dharma translated often as truth is, that we are in a sense our aspiration is to full wisdom. And it's that wisdom, that clarity, that liberates. Thanks you both for an excellent interview. Do you mind if I also ask a question? Yeah. So I'm just very interested in this topic, and it's been great to hear you.

A few things are coming up for me, for example, I mean, even before knowing your book, I've just started the process of the magical art of tidying up, you know, Marie Kondo. So I did a bunch of journaling, and literally what I wrote was, I've never belonged in my life, and I I just said I want to create a space where I belong and there could be so many reasons I don't know if it's because I'm Jewish or because like my mom is an immigrant or Just I grew up in Los Angeles, which is not about belonging like it could be a thousand different things

It doesn't matter, but in this moment I want to create a space of belonging I also live alone and we're in a global pandemic and I don't see many people. And so I also think the comparing mind can be just hyperactivated because it's constantly looking at other people or thinking about everyone that's connected. And I'm just wondering if you can offer more, especially for the like, I know you can still be married and still feel lonely, but like what it looks like to belong in isolation in this time. Yeah, you know, I so appreciate you sharing that and the vulnerability of all of the reasons why we feel we don't belong and the ones that you highlighted and you said, I never belonged.

And the truth of it is that you've always belonged. You just have feelings of not belonging. And that is, I think, a fundamental challenge for any of us, especially with all the messages we get from the culture and the society about the ways we can belong. If we look this way or act this way or have this much stuff for, and so whether we're alone, physically isolated

or with others, the practice of reconnecting to that truth of belonging is similar. It starts inside. It's not about our external connections at first, right? And it's interesting you bring up Marie Kondo, I actually bring her up in the book because modern Western interpretation of her has been kind of dismissing the power of what she's doing

which is actually very indigenous. Some Asian-Americans and Japanese folks have pointed out that a lot of what she's doing is shinto wisdom, that there's this way in which she honors every object and every experience that you're going through as living, as having a living presence. And so we're surrounded by belonging. We're embedded in belonging, whether with, we're with other people, not. And she, she kind of beautifully guides people through this very mindful, very kind of engaged process of acknowledging the living reality of everything we're coming into contact with that points to that fundamental belonging and true. So yeah, I'd love that you brought her up. I really appreciate that. Thank you, Marissa. Great question. Bravo, Marissa, as always. She was in our recent sex episode as well. I heard that it was very cool. I'm so glad. Thank you. Love you too. Thank you both so much. It's really great. Have a great evening. Do some dancing, Dan. Okay.

Bye. Thank you again to Seven A. And speaking of thank you is my team and I want to send a big thank you and speaking of thank you is my team and I want to send a big thank you and shout out and gesture of support to the many teachers and others who work at education at this incredibly difficult moment. And to recognize the struggles you're dealing with right now, we want to give you free access to the 10% happier app, hundreds of meditations on there, lots of other resources as well, including talks and courses. If you want free access, go to 10%.com slash care. That's 10% one word all spelled out.com slash care. Finally, it's always much gratitude to the team who works so hard to make the show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer, Marissa Schneidermann is our producer, sound designer's

Mac Boynton and Ania Sheshik of ultraviolet audio thanks to both of you, Maria Ortel is our production coordinator. And of course, I wanna thank everybody from TPH who weigh in on what we do, including Ben Rubin, Jen Poient, Nate Tobian, Liz Levin. And I would be remiss if I didn't think my ABC News, Comrad, Ryan Kessler, and Josh Kohan will see you all on Friday for a bonus.

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