Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 299: Relationship Advice from a “Mega Monk” | Haemin Sunim

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

My guest today does a fantastic job of speaking in a not-at-all-annoying way about the inarguably important yet potentially very cheesy concept of self-love. Haemin Sunim is a Korean “mega monk” who has developed a massive online following and has written huge bestsellers. He’s also earned degrees from Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton, and is the founder of South Korea’s School for Broken Hearts. In this conversation, we talk about how perfection resides only in your mind, how a celibate monk learned to give great relationship advice, and how he manages his own relationship to ambition. We also have a fascinating exchange about enlightenment. Where to find Haemin Sunim online: Website: https://www.haeminsunim.com/en Twitter: https://twitter.com/haeminsunim Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/haeminsunim/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/haemin_sunim/?hl=en Other Resources Mentioned: •   Love for Imperfect Things by Haemin Sunim - https://www.haeminsunim.com/books •   Haemin Sunim’s School for Broken Hearts - https://www.haeminsunim.com/school •   Song of Myself by Walt Whitman - https://poets.org/poem/song-myself-4 •   Ash Wednesday by T.S. Eliot - http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15133 Additional Resources: •   Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live •   Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide •   Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/haemin-sunim-299 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my guest today does a fantastic job of speaking in a not at all annoying way about the inarugably important yet potentially very cheesy concept of self-love. Heyman's surname is a Korean mega monk who has developed a massive online following and has written huge bestsellers, including one called the things you can only see when you slow down.

He's also earned degrees from Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton, and is the founder of South Korea's School for Broken Hearts. In this conversation, we talk about how perfection resides only in your mind, how a celibate monk learned to give great relationship advice, and how he manages his own relationship to ambition. We also have a fascinating exchange about enlightenment. Okay, so here we go now with Hamlin Sunni. Well, nice to meet you. Thanks for doing this.

Oh, thanks for inviting me. I should say good morning because it's eight in the morning where you are in seven at night, where I am. So thanks for getting up early with us. Yeah, you're you have no problem. When did you become a monk? I became a monk when I was in my mid-twenties. When I was very young, I was asking myself, you know, why was I born as a human being? Some philosopher described this feeling that you are thrown into movie theatre without any kind of guidance and then you are waking up 10 minutes after the movie has started

and so you have to figure things out. Oh okay, now we are 1970s. Oh, I'm male and oh, I'm from South Korea. You know what I mean? You know all the things that you have to figure it out So I was asking what's the purpose in who am I and that led to my interest in religion in general So for a long time, you know, I was looking for my own teacher pursuing enlightenment some kind of spiritual awakening. So that made me major in religious studies, and then eventually led me to become a monk. That's a big move to become a monk, because you're basically saying, I'll never get married,

I'll never have children, I'm gonna dedicate my life to this practice. Well, to me, it was life or death kind of questions. It wasn't as though I had options. I really, really have to find out the answers. Otherwise, I felt like I was gonna die or something. So this question, so why I even exist. Well, who am I, you know, so I Didn't have any other option

Did you find the answer? Yeah, I think so yeah To a certain degree yes, what is the answer? You're born You know in this world to discover who you are What you are actually. Is that a knowable fact? What we are.

It's an interesting question because that which you want to become awakened too has the quality of unknowingness, mystery. Because only then you can, the subject and object division disappears in this realm of unknowingness. So can you walk into this silence, in a space of silence, where there is no more knowledge, there is no more objective quality about things. You know, you cannot think of anything, and yet you are wide awake, open, spacious, and free. That's what you are. Is it safe to say that our job is to know who we are, and yet we are fundamentally unknowable?

Yeah, our job is, first of all, let go of all the label that we ourselves are wearing, you know, like identification. Sometimes we are identified with our bodies, our nationality, race, all those past lifetime experience, things that in nature, but in Zen traditions, we are asking this question, what was you before you were born? What was the face of your true nature before you were born? And then also what you are ultimately asking, And what was the face of your true nature before you were born?

And then also what you are ultimately asking, what you are ultimately trying to experience is the state of unconditionality. Can I say that? So everything that's conditioned new, that binds you, that limits you, it became one of the elements that makes you stuck. It also means that you are sewing the seed for violence as you are identifying yourself with one element, you know, as I am Korean or I am, you know, American. You know what I mean? And as soon as you do that, it also means that you are dividing.

And that creates the seed of violence, I would say. And so, if you can let go of all of this identification that you have been accumulating ever since you were born, what is left? Because when we die, when we let go of our body, none of them will be important. You know, all of them is impromant. We cannot carry that with us. And then what is left? What were you?

What was you before you were born? If I understand correctly and I don't know much about Zen, these riddles, these unanswerable questions like, what was your face before you were born, what's the sound of one hand clapping, these, they're called coons, and they're used to deliberately frustrate the logical conceptual mind so that in effect, you kind of break the conceptual mind and get beyond concepts. Am I at all in the realm of accuracy here? Yeah, yeah, because our logical mind wants to seek some kind of answer and the answer has the objective quality, you know, something that you can observe and state, apart from you.

can observe and state, apart from you. You see what I mean? However, what we want to enter into is the realm of non-duality. The subject, object, separation disappears. In order to do that, you have to put your thinking mind, your monkey mind, your rest. You have to let the thinking, beji mind, make it quiet. And then you will see that, oh, you know, there's a vast,

empty quality of awareness, you know. So then you can say, oh, then where is the beginning and where is the ending of my awareness? And then you will see say, oh, then where is the beginning and where is the ending of my awareness? And then you will see that, oh, there is no beginning and there is no ending. It is infinite. So you can examine the quality of awareness, little by little. For example, my awareness located only within my body. We often identify ourselves with our body. So, anything that's inside my skin is me, anything outside of my skin is not me. So, often we imagine our awareness is contained within our brain. Then the question is, if that is the case, then I should be only aware of what's inside

of my body, not outside. The fact that I can be aware of anything outside, it means that the quality of awareness, it's also outside as well. You know, it is in a way, it's everywhere, because you can be aware of them. So if you can just let go of your identification with your body, then quality of openness, quality of unknowingness, mystery, and yet you are aware of this vast emptiness, peace, it opens up. That's what you are.

I can hear, I have this, I don't know if you know this, but I have a magical ability to channel the questions of our many listeners. I'm being facetious, but I'm guessing now that some of our listeners are thinking, okay, this guy is talking about vast emptiness, awareness, peace. But my daily meditation is like, I feel my breath coming in and going out for maybe three

nanoseconds and then I'm planning lunch. Then I feel it again for a few nanoseconds and then I'm thinking about whether I need a haircut. And then I'm cursing my political rivals and then I'm delivering glorious invectives to my boss, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It has no resemblance to the transcendence that you've just described. That's what I do, too, every day.

So I am nothing special, you know, whatsoever. That's exactly what I do. However, you know, I am aware that there's space between my thoughts. We are not just thoughts, you know, as soon as the thought disappears, there's emptiness. There's a quiet moment. However, because we are so trained on,

or so accustomed to focusing on object, that is the thought, we miss out that non-dual in a moment where there's no more thoughts. We as a human beings, we cannot think 24 hours straight, right? If we do that, then our brain will become so tired, as a human being, we cannot think 24 hours straight, right? If we do that, then our brain will become so tired and you may die. However, if you just examine yourself, there is a plenty of moments when this,

what I just talked about, the quiet, peace, non-conceptual moment, it exists. You know what I'm thinking about as I listen to you talk about that, I mean, I really, I'm nodding my head because I agree with what you just said. And it's so useful to know that like you too struggle with, you know, humiliating horror show of discursive mind.

I was, I was on a retreat a few years ago with my teacher, Joseph Goldstein, and I was on a retreat a few years ago with my teacher, Joseph Goldstein. I was on a retreat and I was complaining to him about how horrible my meditation practices and etc. And he started telling me about a Tibetan, and I know this is a different tradition than the one you're in, but it's a better expression than I'm probably going to mangle, but I think it is a maho, which I think translates into how amazing. And Joseph's argument was, when you wake up from distraction,

maybe once in a while use a maho to direct the mind to that exact moment that you were just describing, which is after the thought has evaporated, and the thought could be incredibly embarrassing. You could be running through, recently we're buying a house, I've been running through like mortgage calculations, or some ancient desire from 1972 or whatever, but whatever the thought is, it doesn't matter as it evaporates, as it leaves,

there's a little bit of space there. That's a maho, how amazing that the mind is if you're awake to it. Absolutely. Empty. It's empty. There's nobody home. Like you can see if you're just attuning the right way,

and maybe you'll talk about it that there is this, I sometimes use the phrase, this yawning chasm of pure knowing that's there. Yeah, that's always there. You know, it's not something that you have to fabricate, something that you have to manufacture. It's already there. That's the beauty of it. This realm of unconditionality, realm of non-duality, as soon as you can just detach yourself from your thoughts. And you can easily do that by becoming aware of your thoughts, like becoming mindful of your thoughts, as soon as you become mindful of your thoughts, at that moment you are stepping outside of your thoughts, right? And there is an immediate release,

immediate freedom from that thought. So, yeah, and then also the quality of, you know, amazing, Maho, you know, you can look at beautiful nature. Right now, if I walk outside, it's full of beautiful, full of knowledge everywhere in Korea now. And then, when you are appreciating the beauty of trees, your mind becomes silent. When you are appreciating something, you cannot think about things. Your mind becomes momentarily very quiet. And then you appreciate beauty, and wow, that is so amazing. Then, right there, there's the experience of non-duality.

So when you appreciate any kind of beauty, it can be art, it can be music, it can be human beings. Your mind has to be very quiet, to be able to appreciate. And maybe that's why we want to go to Mijyum, that's why we want to go to musical concert, things like that, so that our minds can become temporarily quiet. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we want to be blown away quite literally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is like, I think Nirvana is often described as a blowing out, like

a blowing out of a candle, and that's in some ways what we want. I think I'm stealing this notion from Dr. Mark Epstein as a friend of mine, so with a hat tip to mark, part of us wants, whether we know it or not, part of us wants to not exist because we want a yammering voice inside of our head to shut up and that's what draws us, as you said, to great beauty of a museum or nature, any sort of awe that is on offer. Right. In the beginning, we want to get rid of the hammering voice. You see that as a problem, that which blocking us from experiencing

non-dual state of freedom. However, you realize that it is just the manifestations of your own awareness. So you begin to realize that it's not a problem. It is just like any other thing that you see. You can look at your cell phone or you can plant, you can look at your lamp, you know, anything. It manifests and yet after a few minutes or a few seconds, it disappears. So it is beautiful, magical display of our mind. And it happens without you doing it.

Right? You are not there to, if you can control your thoughts, yammering thoughts, then it is yours. Because you can control it. You know, you know, for me to call my car is my car, I should be able to, you know, accelerate or I should be able to break any time I want. If I couldn't, then it's somebody else's car, you know, somebody else is driving my car, right? But if you are looking at your mind, this yammering thought, it just appears without you controlling it. You never intend to have that kind of thought emerge, right? So it emerged without you doing anything, and then it disappeared without you doing anything.

It is magical display of your own awareness, and you are watching this movie of life. And then the question is, you know, what is that which is watching it? That's the quatt. Yes, I mean, you can ask yourself the question, this two comes from Joseph to me through, I think, channeled through Zogue Chan, which is a Tibetan style of practice. And you can ask yourself the question, then you're sitting and meditating, watching your thoughts or sounds or whatever. Who's knowing this? What is knowing all of this?

And then you can ask, then you can ask another question, which is, who's asking that question? Absolutely. I mean, this is the ultimate question, you know. What is being aware? You can be mindful of your thoughts, you can be mindful of your bodily sensation, you can be mindful of any kind of feeling arises and disappears. And then there comes a moment when you realize there is no more object to become mindful of. You will have maybe one minute or two minutes in your meditation. Everything is so quiet, so serene.

And yet there is no more new thought arises, momentarily it's quiet and there is no more bodily sensation that demands immediate attention. Then that which knows remains alone, right? It's still awake, still alive, that which knows, then what happens is that which know become aware of itself. Your mind become aware of your mind, your awareness becoming aware of its own awareness. That's the returning to your home, returning to your true nature. So earlier you described being a young person, feeling like these questions of who am I? What's my job on the planet? These big questions were like life and death you said and that drove you into the Kumaga Buddhist monk. So here you are in your late 40s. If those issues are not what's driving you anymore, what is driving you?

What is driving me is my work. I started school for working hard. So what happened was I was into this kind of meditation and wanted to find out what happened even after I die, all these big questions. And then my teacher, my Buddhist teacher, he has his own temple in Tepan, New York. It's like 30 minutes outside of Manhattan. So on weekend, I went there and served, especially for Sunday morning service. The congregation is largely Korean American or Korean immigrant community. And so people will come and they have their own issue, they have their own problems, you know,

everyday lives, very challenging. It can be health issue, it can be relationship problems, all kinds. So even though I was very young, like 26, 27 people would come to me and ask, you know, this person in their 40s and 50s and 60s, you know, what am I supposed to do? I have this problem, I have that problem. So I realized that the conversation while we, you and I just had had very no or very small room with that person. That person doesn't want to know anything about why they were born. They want to solve the problems with their child or relationship problem. They're about to go to hospital and have a huge operation. How can I maintain sanity in this difficult situation? So, I became engaged and this became my work.

So I became engaged and this became my work. And then I remember sometimes in my 30s, one of my very reviewer teachers in Korea, and some members, Buddhist, she went to him and asked very similar kind of questions. That is, I'm having a huge problems within my marriage. I don't get along with my husband's and problem like that. But he gave very philosophical kind of answer, not down to earth, but more like, everything is impermanent, attachment is bad, that kind of things in nature, which he wasn't very helpful at all.

So I thought maybe the Buddhist monks, they have to do a different way of doing things. So I decided to open up sort of non-religious school where people who are going through difficulties in their lives, they can come and share their difficulties. So one of the first meetings I remember is a parent who are raising a child with disability. You know, I call and see if there's anybody who can come and wants to share. And wonderful things happen. Like, one mother who just discovered her son has disability and her son is only 8 months old. And every day she wakes up and she is thinking about throwing herself with her baby out of her apartment.

And so that my son doesn't have to go through all this difficult lives ahead of him, you know? And then she was able to talk to other parents, you know, other parents who went through all that process and They could give her a lot of encouragement, you know, the ways to You know deal with different situation governmental resources and then support group and all of that. And so she was able to, for the first time, find some hope. To me, it was incredible, you know? So I wanted to do more of that. So I started many different kind of group, you know, people who just recently got divorced

or people who have terminal illness, people who are mentally having a very stressful, especially young people in their 20s and 30s, they've been looking for a job, and yet they couldn't find any job, and therefore their self-esteem is so low and they don't know what to do with this. So, I would just invite different group of people who are going through difficulties in their lives,

and then we were able to do that. different group of people who are going through difficulties in their lives. And then we were able to do that. So every year we have about 3,000 people coming in to our school and they are receiving benefits. So that became my work. This may sound like a bit of a tough question, but I actually mean it more from a point of curiosity than skepticism, but is it hard for you to answer? I mean, you're a celibate monk.

You're not in a romantic relationship. You don't have kids. You're not participating in the mainstream economy. So is it hard for you to give advice to people who are struggling with their spouses or their kids or worried about establishing a career? Well, I'm a human being, so I don't think I am anything super different. So the thing is, I begin to see patterns.

Like, you are so attached to your own view in your marriage life. This is a certain way you have to do things, and that can create some conflict, and yeah, you cannot be open and become sympathetic to what the other person is going through. So I begin to see a pattern and I talk about the patterns and it worked. So on top of it, it's fine for me not to know the answer because there are plenty of other people, they can bring out their own experience. So I am there to bring people together

and giving them opportunity to help each other. Much more of my conversation with Hanmin Sunim right after this. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page 6 or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellesai. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wundery's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud from the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions.

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So I know they call you a mega monk. How did you get to this point? Oh, well, back in the 2010, I was teaching small liberal arts college in Massachusetts. And at the time People told me there is a new social media called Twitter, you know, so I Didn't know what it was so I at first. I just followed like the way President Obama, you know, he tweets what he did on that day, you know whom he met You know things like that in nature, so I I did exactly the same, you know, whom he met, you know, things like that in nature. So I did exactly the same, you know, today I met my students, you know, I went to my school cafeteria, and then I realized that

this information is really, really boring, you know, and nobody will be interested in that. So I changed, and then I thought maybe, you know, from the my own meditations, I could see some of the patterns in my mind, and some of the words that I wanted to say to myself, some of the kind words, compassionate words. So I tweeted that, and then people responded very positively. I was thinking about writing a book, turning that into a book. And my first book was, the things you can see, only when you slow down. And that book became massively huge bestseller in Korea. And that book became the book of the decade. So, and then it was translated and then published in a number of different countries.

But in the meanwhile, I was still engaged with, you know, tweeters and Facebook and things that in nature. I'm curious, you know, we've done plenty of episodes here about the pitfalls of technology of being addicted to your phone, being addicted to social media. How do you interact with this technology while endeavoring to build large followings and posts on a regular basis without running into some of the obsession and compulsion and depression and fomo and all the other stuff that can happen if we spend too much time

with our noses and social media. I think that's where meditation becomes very handy. That is, if you are overly obsessed or involved in your social media, then you become aware, oh, this is very unhealthy. Maybe I should step away and maybe go out, exercise or walk around in nature or go to bed one hour early. So I would say that you become aware of your own mental state as you are doing it.

But the technology is, in my opinion, is neutral in that it can be used for negative purpose, but it can be used for positive purpose. For example, your app, 10% happier meditation app, people who are engaging that app can receive enormous amount of benefits, all because of technology. It depends on how you use it in my mind. I just want everybody to know that I did not pay you to say that. So another way that you've become so popular, not only in Korea, but around the world is writing books. And one of the books that you've written that really isn't speaking to me and that I wanted to spend some time talking about

today is about perfectionism and some of the beauties of imperfection. Trying to look at the title here. Love for imperfect things is the name of that book. There's a quote that you've said that inspired you from a sixth century Chinese Zen master, I believe, and the quote is true freedom is being without anxiety about imperfection. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. You know, when you are completely awakened and become in touch with your own true nature, you see that everything that you thought you labeled as a problem, it is just

Manifestation of your self-nature and therefore you can relax You don't have to be so obsessed about you know what's called imperfections I think that's where this child master exam master in China was talking about but in every day, you know, for every day in human beings, just like me, I would say that there's a beauty in imperfections. If you go out and look at trees, trees are never straight, you know, never vertically straight. It always crooked, and there's always movement, you know. I think that creates unique character. That's what makes it so special. For a long time, I thought to myself, you know,

I am a little bit like a child. When I am going out and giving a talk, some of my great masters, they would say in a very respectable way, very adult-like way. However, when I give a talk, I tend to become a little more free and joyful. And so, for a long time, I didn't like that, you know, about me. I thought that's not what people expect, you know, from a monk. Then I realized that the people who are following my Twitter's or, you know, social media, precisely because I have that quality, you know.

So, I think it has been the journey of embracing accepting my own imperfections. And then when you can do that, then I think the real spiritual practice is right there. This issue of perfectionism, it's a riddle for me. The co-on, one of the co-ons, I don't know if it's appropriate to even call it that, but one of the riddles I've been mulling ever since my first encounter with Buddhism is, can you strive to be excellent while also not getting hung up on perfectionism? And does the not getting hung up on perfectionism lead you to a resignation, like the idea of accepting your imperfections, loving your imperfections?

Does that, is that like giving up in some way? You know, when we are thinking about imperfections, we tend to focus on ourselves. I am imperfect, you know, things that I do is imperfect. However, when you are thinking about other people and how I can help them, my motivation is trying to help them, then the focus isn't so much, you know, on me, it's about them, whether they are receiving help. So So if we think less about ourselves and more about people we are actually helping, then this question becomes irrelevant. As you are helping other people,

there is a feeling of engagement, in feeling of goodwill from our heart. So as long as we maintain that motivations, I think we'll be able to accept the situations. I mean, we have to do our best. Given the circumstance, however, a lot of us, we are imposing too much expectations onto ourselves and yet we feel like when we don't deliver it, we are a loser, we are failure, but just check with your own motivation. What is your motivation? Are you there to help other people? Then even if the person who's receiving help didn't receive huge amount,

and yet the other person may be saying, oh, this has been a great help. Like, for example, whenever I give a bad talk, I sometimes I give a bad public talk, and I was thinking to myself, oh, this was a really terrible talk I just gave. But after that, people would come up to me and they say, oh, how wonderful this talk was and how much beneficial this has become. So you never know.

Well, I completely agree that being of service to other people can pull you out of your own self-lips session. And yet, even though I try to put that wisdom to work in my own life, I still, and I don't think I'm alone on this, get hung up on my own imperfections, not liking the way my face looks in the mirror as I approach 50 or I didn't hit the numbers.

I wanted to hit on my latest exercise class or writing a book in that last chapter I did. My editor told me it sucked or whatever. It's still very hard for me to not get hung up on these imperfections. And then I keep toggling back and forth in my mind between wanting to, as you say, sort of accept imperfection and on the other hand, wanting to do things you say, sort of accept imperfection, and only their hand wanting to do things that

are great. And I get kind of confused in the middle there sometimes. Well, you can look at it differently, that is, oh, wow, I still have a room for improvement, you know? Tomorrow when I go back and start exercising, I still have a room for improvement and I cannot get there as quickly as I wanted. However, well, tomorrow I can do it better. So you can see that as imperfections or you can see that as room for future improvement. But is my motivation to improve because I want to get perfect or is it, you know, so it does come back a little bit to some fiction that we may harbor of the possibility of perfection. Yeah, I think the result isn't so much whether the

work is perfect or not. It's more has to do with the state of your mind. Is your mind peaceful? Is your mind content with what is? So if you are artificially imposing certain kind of expectation, I need to hit this number. See that how artificial this is. The randomly you chose this number and you are in asking this to yourself. And this is a play. That's precisely the reason why I say

this magical play of our awareness. So enjoy this artificial entertaining quality of imposition that you made to yourself, and see if you can improve tomorrow. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with this. I think we should strive to become good at what you are trying to deliver to other people. However, if you can also take not too seriously, we shouldn't take that goal too seriously, and then approach this, you know, mind of childlike quality,

then I think you can still find joy in it. What's coming to mind from me right now is I listen to you talk about this, is there's a, I once read and will not be able to faithfully reproduce a great quote from Walt Whitman, the American poet of the Civil War era. And he talked about being both in and out of the game. T.S. Eliot talks about learning to care and not care. And I think those quotes speak to the paradox I'm hearing from you of, like, can you do your best while also seeing that it's all, as you said, a magic show?

Yeah, yeah. So, you are in the movie as the main actor, but you are also become aware that this is a movie. So, you will do your best, you know, to play that role in that movie. In the meanwhile, you become, you know, perfectly aware this is just a movie. And that's where the elements of humor comes in. I think one of the reasons why great master, you know, like his Holiness Dalirama, he loves to laugh, you know, he has a lot of humor in it, precisely because he knows this is also a movie. mean not to reduce the seriousness of everyday human tragedy, that's not what I'm trying to say here, but what I'm trying to tell you is that

ultimately speaking, when you see things as it is, if you don't absorb in the activity of your mind, if you can just step outside and look at it, and you will see that this is just, you know, play a movie that has very, you know, little or no control, me control in it. And again, this is not some, this insight about the magic show that you're describing is not something that you need to move to the Himalayas and wear nothing but loincloth for several millennia in order to

perceive. We can have the insight about the impersonal nature of awareness just in a five minute humiliating meditation session in our living room on the couch by noticing how little control we have over our thoughts. Right. So, you can even say, you know, my thoughts. It is exactly. Thoughts, you know?

Yes. Just like when you are sitting at a coffee shop and looking at people walking by, you don't say, my person, you know, all these people who are walking past, you don't call that as my something, right? It is just a person walking, passing by. That's what I mean by, you know, stop identifying yourself with thoughts. But again, it was so interesting that we're talking about here is the balance between being able to have these insights, which again are pretty readily available and also transcendent in that they kind of get you out of the movie.

It's a little bit like taking the red pill and that movie, the Matrix. You get to see the Matrix. On the one hand, you can have those insights. And on the other hand, you do still have to participate in conventional reality. You still have to do your best because your boss may be breathing down your neck about your sales numbers or whatever it is. So you need to be able to be in and out of the game in that way. Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That's, you know, in my own traditions, we talk about Bodhisattva way. You know, like Bodhisattva is fully aware, enlightened being, who knows the true nature of reality as it is, and yet he or she is

fully participating in everyday lives. That's precisely the same quality that you just talked about. It's absolutely, absolutely true. So do you ever find yourself, and we talked about this a little bit with your success on social media, but now that you have had and continue to have so much success in conventional reality in the mainstream economy as a monk, do you ever find yourself getting sucked into? I don't know, comparing yourself to other people or criticizing yourself or wanting more success and wanting to get on this show or that show or wanting a good review or wanting to know what your sales numbers are on your last book, et cetera,

et cetera. Do you find yourself getting sucked into that? Yes, I do. But when I do that, I'm also aware that I'm doing it. So naturally, we cannot help. However, you also know that you are doing it. So you are not taking things so seriously. And also check with your motivation.

What is your motivation? Why are you doing this? Are you doing this just to become famous just to make a lot of money? Or are you doing this in some way because you want to help other people, in some way you want to connect with other people. I read an interesting thing that you said that relates to this discussion, which is, I think you said that it's occasionally useful for you to reread your own books to remember your own advice, to apply it in your actual life.

Yes, it's a silly, but I cannot live up to my own writing. So there is a gap between what I'm saying and what I'm doing, and I'm fully aware of that. I think the law for imperfect things came out of that realization. The bodhisattva takes eons and eons of time to become Buddha. Precise because he or she has to close that gap. That is between what you already know and what you are doing in every day. So that's the real work between what you already know and whether you are actually carrying out what you are preaching. So, to me, that's the real task.

And then I just want to go back to what you just talked about earlier, that is this in and out, this two dimension that is one is unconditional and non-dual, and another one is, you know, everyday dual life, subject and object. In the beginning, you know, I thought that in order to get to non-dual state, I have to try very hard. And so, as a result of my effort, as a result of my meditation, long and arduous meditation, somehow I'll be able to arrive at liberation, arrive at subtori or awakening. Then I realized that if there was the case, then the fruit, the result of your meditation, has to be also conditional. result of your meditation has to be also conditional. You know what I mean? Because it is depending upon the cause, like hard work, many hours of meditations, and

therefore, if gave birth to liberation, then that liberation, that awakening, is also conditional. However, what I was looking after was unconditional, something that's unbind. Which means that it is something that is already here, without you trying to make effort to get there. So, the book, the things you can see only when you slow down. You have to just slow down your mind, you know, and the two-point that your mind become very, you know, quiet and pause, pause for a while. And then you'll be able to see that the very thing that I was pursuing, I was in the midst of it. It's like you are in Grand Central, New York station and asking people, how can I get to New York? What do I need to do to arrive in New York City?

That was the question that I was asking, for a long time. I don't know whether it makes sense. It, I get it, but it's also frustrating because it's another paradox. We do have to work at our meditation so that you can let go of your effort. Right, right. That's frustrating because whenever I hear somebody say, well, if, if, you know, awakening

Nirvana, whatever, it's already here. Yes. But I don't see it because I'm thinking about lunch. So I get frustrated with myself because I should be able to see this thing that's already here, this not thing, this no thing that is already here, and yet I can't because I'm so worried about, you know, like, you know, whatever my latest score on Peloton. Yeah, but the thing, use that frustration. Frustration can be an enormous health.

Turn that into a, you know, spiritual energy. health, turn that into a spiritual energy. I want to see the awakening, this reality of unconditional realm, the state of complete freedom, it's supposed to be right in front of me with this? And this can become an engine that can push you to let go, eventually let go of your effort. Because for a long time, even though conceptually, I, just like you, I was able to understand, it is right in front of me, I was subtly in a very subtle way, still striving, still saying that, oh, this cannot be it. It has to be something better. It has to be something more peaceful. It has to be something more fantastical.

So in my early 20s, I was looking for gurus and that master and Tibetan teacher who can give me that supernatural enlightenment experience, spectacular experience, opening of Kundalini, opening of all kinds of supernatural show. You can go to the Pure Land, different realm and interacting with the different bodhisattva, you know, all of this I thought was enlightenment, but then I realized that all of this is impermanence. That's not what I was looking for. Again, I'm saying this as somebody who has not yet found what he's looking for, unlike, I imagine you. I'm guessing now, I can understand how big mountaintop experiences unleashing the flood gates of Kundalini or whatever it is, all these experiences that you can read about if you

feel like reading spiritual journalism, how that would be to miss the point. Yeah, because you want to get somewhere. That's the beginning of your assumption is that right now, it's not it. I have to go and obtain whatever that I'm looking for. And this very assumption is conditional. But to get to the point where we can let go and see what's right in front of us

is gonna take some frustration and effort and some suffering, it seems to me. Well, if that's what you're projecting, yes, precisely that's what you're gonna get. Okay, let's just, I just want to help you. So, let's just go back to what he said. So, as soon as you become mindful of your thoughts, whatever that bothers you, then what happened to that thought and then the state of your mind.

Loyal listeners will have heard me say what I'm about to say before but I say I think it's worth anybody hearing this again, which is a huge shift in my meditation over the past couple of years has been. Noticing when I wake up from whatever distraction with some craving voice inside of my head, anger, ambition, planning, whatever it is. I have started to at first it felt very contrived, but over time it actually feels pretty genuine to view these inner characters with some warmth. And for me, the combination of kind of just viewing whatever comes up as these ancient neurotic patterns that are trying to serve me, perhaps unskilfully, definitely unskilfully, and to blow them a kiss

and just go back to whatever it is, is the object of my meditation, my breath, phrases of love and kindness meditation, or just an open awareness over and over and over again, without much of an agenda, knowing that I'm not going to probably achieve satory or enlightenment or Ken show or whatever you want to call it on my schedule. That's basically my practice now. Okay, very good. Then let's say you talked about this, you know, the feeling of warmth, the caruna in a feeling of this, you know, compassion, right?

Yes. And then usually, you know, this compassion is directed towards something, you know, object, right? But momentarily, can you just let go of that object of your compassion and just focusing on this quality of compassion, this warmth within your mind, right? In this warmth, do you have any kind of thoughts in it? I'm asking you.

I know. I'm going to give you an answer that's a little off subject, not off topic, but it's a little off exactly what you're talking about, but I think it's related. You can reach across the planet and slap my wrist if I'm taking us down a rabbit hole, but a really useful piece of meditation advice I got on a retreat I was on a few weeks ago is occasionally just to drop in a note into your mind that whatever you're seeing is just nature. It's like a two step in some way or maybe for like boxing, this is too much of an aggressive metaphor,

but a one two punch of one, some warmth and two, just seeing that there's nobody home anyway, this is all just nature. Right. As soon as you become aware that everything is just nature, then what is the very quality of your mind? For a nanosecond. Yes, nanosecond.

Yes. Spacious. Yes, spaciousness, right? Right? And you are not bound to any thought, right? There's a release of your thought and a wide open spaciousness. Yes, and then can you see if that spaciousness has any kind of limit? Is there any wall that you bump into?

If you just keep going spaciousness, is there any kind of limit? None. Right? Right? Correct. And then let's say spaciousness, you know, this unbound, free spaciousness, that moment of your mind, can it just expand continuously? In my mind, it can't because then I start thinking about lunch again or whatever it is I have my next meeting or something like that. So, but that's just the story I'm telling myself. Right. But immediately right after your story, there is another nanosecond. That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then you realize that the thought, the lunch thought,

is it came out of that nanosecond. It's also nature. Absolutely. So, you know, when you, as soon as they say it's also nature, there's a release, there's a freedom. You know, you don't have to be so caught up. And this, you know,, the space of wide open emptiness, and enjoy, it's everywhere.

You're not bound. It's infinite. It's free. And realize that it is also very quiet, peaceful. There's no subject versus objects. It's all just all in it, unbound. There is no subject versus objects. It's all just all in it. Unbound.

Unbound. I like that. Because it doesn't have any kind of objective quality, we often miss out. Because there's no fun to focus on empty space. However, if you can pay attention, eventually you'll be able to see that that's true nature because it doesn't have an object. It also means that it's not going to disappear because it has not been emerged as an object. Because it has not been emerged as an object, it's not going to disappear. I don't quite follow that. Like, there's a wide openness, empty spaciousness that we just talked about.

Was there anything you can focus on? Was there any... No, well, you keep using the subject object, you know, in a dualistic state in which most of us exist, there is a subject, me, the source of sort of infinite subjectivity, and then there are objects. For me, when I notice that everything that's happening in my mind is just nature that there's, I'm not, there's nobody home, I'm not directing the show. It's just then that duality collapses just for like a nanosecond.

Yes. Yes. So let's get familiar with that nanosecond. In that nanosecond, do you have any specific spot that you can focus on? Is there any kind of object? No. No, right? Like, in order...

There are objects that are rising within it. A little bit later, or, you know, immediately after. That is, as soon as the thought drops and then right before new thought emerges, there is this nano seconds of no thought. In this moment of no thought, is there any point that demands your attention? Is there any object that you can focus on, there is none because it's empty. And because there is no object, it means there's no division between object and subject. There's nowhere for your mind to latch onto. No where for your mind to abide in.

It's everywhere. Before I let you go, can I change the stuff? I'm sorry. We've been on the mountain top. We've been on the mountain top. We've been on the mountain. No, no, there's no reason for you to apologize, whatsoever. I brought us here.

But we've been on the mountain top for a second. We've been talking about big, meditative stuff. Let me just descend into the marketplace for a second. And I hope that I can ask these questions in a way that will just connect in some way to the, what we've just discussed. But as you and I were discussing earlier, you find yourself in an interesting position for a monk, which is talking to people about, sometimes about their love life, for example. And one question I wanted to get to you before we wrapped up here is, how do you define love?

As you see things, what is love? I think one of the wonderful expression of love is paying attention. When you are in love with something, when you love your child, when you love your painting, when you love your, whatever that you are in a loving, then you pay attention. And when you are paying attention to that, you don't think about yourself. Like when you are looking at your own baby, son or daughter sleeping at night, you open the door and then you watch your son sleeping quietly and there is a feeling of warmth and love. But at that moment, you are just only paying attention to your son.

You are not thinking about your thoughts. So when our mind becomes quiet and then can pay attention to whatever that is, then in that moment there is a quality of love. If I can just pay attention to you without concerned about me and just really totally pay attention to you. There is the element, you know, quality of love. And the problem is, when we think that we already know the other person, then we stop paying attention. We stop asking questions, you know, I know everything there is to know about that person

and therefore I'm not curious about this person. And thereby we pay less and less attention to that person. And, you know, so I think love has a lot to do with our attention. That does connect to what we were discussing about spaciousness and the impersonality of awareness, because under this view of love, when you're paying full attention to somebody else, you drop away. Absolutely. And then there's a deep connection between that person and you, and the connection that

has always, always existed. But notice how different this conception of love is from the version we get from Hollywood or from love songs, pop music, where it's about fixating on the color of somebody's eyes or the way you made me feel or the way somebody dances. Yeah, yeah. First kiss and all of that, you know, in bulk, you know, feeling of aliveness, right? Feeling of, wow, I feel like I'm alive, you know. But if you are looking at this feeling of aliveness,

it actually comes, is it related to your attention? I don't think, you know, love has a lot to do with ownership. I own you and you own me, you know, love has a lot to do with ownership. I own you and you own me, you know, but in life it's impossible to own anything. You can appreciate things, but you cannot own anything. So whether you can pause and pay attention and appreciate what's in front of you, and you will discover love there? Well, you've been very generous with your time. I really appreciate you taking all this time to chat. It's been fascinating and I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much

Big thank you again really appreciated that conversation was fascinating Thank you as well to all the people who work so hard to make this show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman and DJ Kashmir. Our producers, Jules Dodson is our associate producer. Our sound designer is Matt Boynton from Ultraviolet Audio, Maria Wartel is our production coordinator. We get a massive amount of extremely helpful input from our TPH colleagues such as Jen Point, Nate Toby, Liz Levin and Ben Rubin. And finally, as always, a big thank you to my ABC News guys, Ryan Kassler and Josh Kohan. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a fascinating episode with the Dharma teacher named Bonnie

Durand, who's going to talk about the connection between the Dharma and Indigenous wisdom. Hey, hey, Prime Members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with 1-replus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.