Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 337: Hope Is a Skill | George Mumford

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

Spring is here. Vaccines are entering arms. But for many of us, hope can feel slippery and fleeting. Even with the pandemic seeming to abate, there's still a lot of uncertainty and suffering. That’s why, starting today, we’re launching a special two-week series on hope: what it is, what it isn’t, and how and why to cultivate it. The word “hope” might feel vague, or gauzy–or even, given the current state of the world, misguided. And if you’re using the commonly understood definition of hope, that might be true.  Many of us think about hope as wishing for some specific outcome or result: a raise, a promotion, a romantic entanglement, or a return to an exact replica of pre-pandemic living. We can get attached to these outcomes–and then get disappointed when they (inevitably) don’t work out exactly as we’d hoped. But there is a way to hope wisely. And over the next two weeks, both here on the podcast and in the Ten Percent Happier app, we’re going to teach you how. We’ve enlisted an all-star slate of Buddhist teachers, mindfulness experts, and scientists, who will make the case that hope is a skill. One you can get better at.  Today on the podcast, we’ve got the perfect guest to kick off our series. George Mumford is a personal friend and a much-loved contributor to the Ten Percent Happier app. Years ago, he overcame a heroin habit to become one of the nation’s leading mindfulness teachers. He’s worked with some of the world’s top athletes, including Michael Jordan and the late Kobe Bryant. In today’s episode, he’s going to talk about his own tumultuous path towards hope, how it relates to the Buddhist idea of right action, and also a list he calls the Four A’s. A quick heads up: in our conversation, George talks frankly about his aforementioned substance abuse, which might be a sensitive topic for some listeners. If you’re a subscriber to the Ten Percent Happier app, you're going to want to check out our exclusive new "Hope is a Skill" content. We’ve got fresh meditations and talks on the subject -- just tap on the “Singles” and “Talks” tabs in the app to check them out, or click here (https://10percenthappier.app.link/HopeIsASkill). If you’re not a subscriber, now’s the time. In addition to the “Hope is a Skill” meditations, there are tons of resources for starting, rebooting, or deepening your meditation practice. Just download the Ten Percent Happier app today, for free, wherever you get your apps to get started: https://10percenthappier.app.link/download-app. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/george-mumford-337 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, spring is here. Vaccines are entering arms. I had my first dose recently. Nonetheless, for many of us, hope can feel slippery and fleeting, even with the pandemic seeming to abate. There's still a lot of uncertainty and a lot of suffering, which is why starting today we are launching a special two week series on hope, what it is, what it isn't, and how and why to cultivate it. The word hope might feel vague or gauzy

or even given the current state of the universe misguided. And if you're using the commonly understood definition of hope, that actually might be true. Many of us think about hope as wishing for some specific outcome or result, a raise, a promotion, a romantic entanglement, or a return to an exact replica of pre-pandemic living, whatever. We can get attached to these outcomes and then get disappointed when they inevitably don't work out exactly as we had hoped.

There is, however, a way to hope wisely. And over the next two weeks, both here on the podcast and in the 10% happier app, we're going to teach you how to do that. For this endeavor, we've enlisted in all star slate of Buddhist teachers, mindfulness experts, and scientists who will make the case convincingly, in my opinion, that hope is a skill one you can get better at. If you're a subscriber to the 10% happier app, you're going to want to check out all of our new exclusive hope is a skill content. We've got fresh meditations and fresh talks on the subject. Just go to the singles or the talks tab in the app

to check that stuff out. If you're not a subscriber, maybe now's the time. In addition to the aforementioned hope is a skill content, there's just a ton of stuff on there, ton of resources for starting, rebooting or deepening your meditation practice. Just download the 10% happier app today for free,

wherever you get your apps. Back to today and this episode of the podcast, we've got the perfect guest to kick this all off. George Mumford, he's a personal friend and a much loved contributor to the 10% happier app. Years ago, he overcame a heroin habit to become one of the country's leading meditation teachers. He's worked with some of the world's top athletes, including Michael Jordan and the late

Kobe Bryant, who was a personal friend of his. Today, he's going to talk about his own tumultuous path to hope, how it relates to the Buddhist idea of right action, and also a list that George calls the four A's. A quick heads up in our conversation, George talks pretty frankly about his substance abuse, which might be sensitive for some listeners, so just want to give you a heads up on that. Okay, here we go now with George Mumford. My friend George Mumford, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Great to see you too, Dan.

It's always great to see you. As you know, we're just talking today about hope. Right now seems like a precarious moment for hope, because we do see green shoots around us. It seems like the pandemic may be kind of we can see some light at the end of the tunnel. The vaccines are here, summers coming. But, you know, then there's always the fact that people continue to get sick and die. People are worried about these new, you know, mutations that could come and do an end run around the vaccine. So how do you think about hope in a precarious moment like this? How do I think about hope? Things that happen in because the conditions are right for them to happen. And even though we have stories around people dying all the time and all of these ways that one could die, that's always the case.

It's always been that way. It's just that now we have, instead of it being unknown, is known. So it's really focusing on, what can I do? So it's really focusing on what can I do to make things better. So it's an inside job. How can I make it peaceful? How can I make things better? And so hope is tied to faith or trust, see in the future that we can live in too. So we have to cultivate hope. I talk about this idea of embracing whatever comes up,

like say this uncertainty, that's a big one, uncertainty, death and dying, illness, aging, all of those things that happen in all the time. So when I can embrace it, say yes to it, and then generate the hope from it, okay, given that this is happening, how might I relate to the situation in a way where I bring more peace, more ease, more understanding to the situation. And so it's easier for me to have hope because I've been through hell with my substance abuse and all the other trials and tribulations that one encounters. And my perspective is similar to the one that Victor Frankl talks about what he talked about. He's no longer living, but he said when we find meaning and suffering, it ceases to be suffering. So it's something to

be understood. It's something to be related to in a way where we can generate more hope. We can find peace in it, say, okay, yes, this is happening. And here's the compassionate action that's required. And so to the degree that I could see how the universe works, there's a lot of this in the universe. If I align myself with that, then not only will I have confidence, but I will have conviction that no matter what happens,

I get to choose my response. And then my, and that space between stimulus and response is where I can exercise the freedom and the power to choose and to choose rightly. But having said that, there's an even simpler aspect of that. It's if I have my mind in love or an openness or willingness to see clearly and to act compassionately,

then it's a lot easier than my perspective is gonna be more consistent with feeling hopeful, but optimism has to be there. So hope without action, or they say faith without works is dead. So it is hoping, but there has to be there. So hope without action or they say faith without works is dead. So it is hoping, but there has to be a activity. There has to be a willingness to make the right effort. A willingness to use right speech is a willingness to really understand eye and the other or one to get beyond the illusion of separateness. So it's really more about

seeing a path forward this in line with how things work. You said a lot there. Let me just see if I can repeat some of it back to you to make sure that I at least have some sort of intellectual grasp of what you're saying there. You generate hope if I'm hearing you correctly from knowing that you can exercise at least two muscles.

One is the kind of mindfulness that would allow you to be able to respond wisely in the face of unpredictable circumstances going forward, instead of reacting blindly. And the other is to act out of warmth, friendliness, compassion, kindness, instead of greed, aversion, et cetera, et cetera. So you combine those skills, you have a sense that I am fortified and resourced to handle whatever comes up. Yes, I have a masterpiece I've been wide for success

in how I direct my attention and how I cultivate certain mind states or wholesome mind states. It's going to help me be able to relate to the situation in a skillful, wise way. So cutting to the chase, it's like there's two basic emotions, fear and love. So when we're in fear mode, we're in the fight flight freeze. That's a reptilian brain when we're in love mode rest digest openness open high open mind There's a thing called the broadening build theory which says that when we are at positive It's what the shana core cause positive genius that we could generate open optimism

Then our cognitive functioning is enhanced so we actually think clear a seat and feel in the way where we can actually set up being tunnel vision where we have the expanded view where if you use the analogy of a TV set, if you stay on channel five, you're gonna get whatever the program's on channel five, but if you can have the broad and bill and you expand so that you realize you have thousands of channels, then it's just a matter of understanding which channel you need to tune into that's going to give you the resources, the outcome that

you want. I will not have you running down channel five, because in your hometown of Boston, where I also grew up, channel five is ABC. So I take that personally. But having said that, having said that, having said that, I, again, I'm testing this out on you just to make sure I understand it. Hope for you is knowing that if you put yourself in the right mindset, you can deal with it.

It's not hope and optimism for you isn't picturing a definitive outcome and come hell or high water. I'm gonna get X, Y or Z. Is that right? Yes. So let me put it to you this way. I call it the 4A's.

There's awareness. So that's mirror mind. Whatever is there, I have to embrace and see what's there. So clear seeing. So when we talk about mindfulness, you'll be in mindful, you're cultivating this ability to both see and know. So you have mindfulness, but you have wisdom or insight there. There's a clearly knowing. There's a seeing clearly. And when we see clearly,

then the second step is acceptance. And that's the challenge. So when we can accept things, when we can embrace it and say, yes, this is what's happening. And this is how I can relate to it in a skillful way. So there's awareness, the challenge is the acceptance, embracing it because it's unpleasant. And the nervous system is wired. When something is unpleasant, there's aversion. So we have to train ourselves to not withdraw, but to be in the center, to eye heart, and to observe it in spite of how uncomfortable it is.

So the ability to accept what's going on, because once we accept, yes, it's raining out. Then I can get an umbrella. So then the compassionate action is to get out of the rain, or maybe you need rain, because it's been a drought. So whatever it means. So it's the acceptance of it then that compassionate action. And what I am suggesting is when we can be still and know, when we can be mindful and have the wisdom, the understanding, the basic fundamentals of what is a central thing here. What's the most important thing right now. Then there's a knowing that comes out of that

seeing clearly. There's an inner wisdom. There's a knowing what we need to do. So the compassionate action is a call compassionate action because it's action that's leading to more compassion, more connection to really being able to embrace it. And at the same time, by embracing it, once we accept it, then we can make the wise choices about how do we lay to it. And part of that is a process. We're going to choose wrongly, unwisely sometimes. But the idea is, what did you learn? What do you need to change?

And then in changing that, then we start to get more confidence that even when we make a mistake, we can replay it or we can we do it. Because the mistake is just feedback telling us, okay, you need to adjust to this or you need to understand this, you need to learn this, you need to practice this, then you get to there. So it's a process. So hope is not static. It's not just an emotion.

Be hopeful means that you are understanding you're seeing clearly in your through trial and error because this is how we learn. We're understanding what works, what doesn't work. And so when we can understand how it works, how the universe works, how things work, then we align with that, then we're going to have success, we're going to have ease, we're going to have peace. Because once we accept that, okay okay, so for me I go back to my substance abuse once I accepted that I had a problem with substances I can deal with it Once I accept yes, my life is unmanageable find me and my best thinking can't help me So once I accept that then the compassionate action is

Is to try something else make wise choices? There's programs as people that can guide me and say, okay, that's what if you don't take a drink you won't get drunk. Wow How about that and Then I compassionate action and then I can assess it this fourth a is did it work? Then if it work, why did it work and how do you sustain and perfect? How to make it work when you get in that situation and if it didn't work then you go back to awareness Acceptance and then compassionate action. So it's a it's a feedback loop and So that's going going and so to the degree that I can do that with life challenges with difficulties like this time is an opportunity for us to grow

more and confidence more trust, more in peace, because how we relate to it is going to show something. There's a lesson here, there's something to get here. And once we get the meaning of it, we understand it, then it's easy to be suffering. It's just feedback. This is what happens. So why am I acting like it shouldn't happen? So it's really simple of this awareness, acceptance, and then the compassionate action, and then the assessment. So what we want to do is we want to be able to focus on, because our society, in general, is more focused on pathology, what doesn't work. We need to focus on what works, what, and then focus on how to sustain what works. So when we start sustaining what works and we keep doing what works and we're learning and growing the hope is

going to be optimism. It's going to grow to optimism and the hope is going to be something that we have because we know from direct experience that if we relate to our experience in a way that's skillful, then it's gonna lead to peace happiness, compassion, joy. But for now and I know when it comes to dealing with a crisis, if I understand that there's both danger and opportunity, then I can be aware of the danger. Yeah, I can embrace the danger, but I can also embrace the opportunity.

There's an opportunity for me to really get clarity, to really learn something here, to really allow my latent abilities to express themselves, to learn how these principles we talk about, like mindfulness and right effort and concentration and wisdom and faith, which could be interpreted as hope and trust. However, you want to look at it, that those qualities of mine are helpful for me to be in a moment and to choose wisely and to create space between stimulus and response. And so when I do that, I can be hopeful, okay, there's danger here, but there's an opportunity here. So if I can look at it from that perspective and understand that I've been wide for success, it just doesn't matter how I direct my attention, how I program my mindset on my mind, so that I have right view.

So I have one, I have one, I wear glasses, I have one in the fear glasses. I'm in survival mode. So it's fight flight freeze among my heels. If I'm in love mode, then I'm in survival mode. So it's fight flight freeze. I'm on my heels. If I'm in love mode, then I'm open. I'm in rest digest. You know, what is just how do I relate to it? So I bring this quality of interest curiosity and understand. So okay. So Dan says, if I do this, then I'm going to be happy. So I have to take Dan's teaching and then see if it's true. See if I can have a direct experience of it. So once I have a direct experience of it. So once I have a direct experience of it, the confidence goes to conviction. And so if I got through this,

then the next thing I can get to anything if I can be still and know if I can really understand see clearly, then accept it and then the action, the compassionate action is going to be trailing there or it could be I know What the essentials are and I know how to make the wise choice and you do that But you always assessing whether it worked or didn't work you want to assess and Understand okay if it worked then I need to sustain that Maintain that and perfect it and what didn't work is just telling me I need to learn and practice To get to the point where I achieve my aim. It seems like one serious obstacle to the kind of hope

that you're describing would be an attachment to results. So I could look at the current pandemic and say, well, I've got hope because it looks like this thing could be winding down. But then all of my hopes would be dashed if, you know, some sneaky mutation hits the news or whatever, any number of things happen. Then all of a sudden, I've lost the hope. But I think you're describing a hope that is not attached to specific results. It's being equipped to deal with whatever comes.

Yes. So what I'm saying is I'm hopeful and I'm optimistic how it's going to turn out, but I don't know how many obstacles I have to overcome. But I'm committed to the process and it's going to take as long as it takes. So that's where right effort to the process and it's going to take as long as it takes. So that's where right effort, the persistence, this not quitting, but getting the feedback and staying on target. Because who just say that the process doesn't involve these variations. So we don't know. So you're absolutely right. We can have a target for the end result. We just want to get to being healthy. So that the goal is to be healthy or to be, you know, not in this ease, right?

And so the process that it takes, we don't know what's gonna happen. That's why I got live in a moment. But if I know if I take it at this moment, the next moment is gonna be fine. This time, the time we have now, it's the only time there is, and this time doesn't go back to the past, it goes forward. So what I do today is going to echo in tomorrow. So if I understand that all I can do is manage the moment and just manage each moment and have an intention of, you know, getting to a certain point, but the actual process requires trust

and a stick to itiveness of staying on task, no matter what the environment, no matter what the road signs are telling me, I have to stay committed to the process. So, yeah, so you're absolutely right. If you're focused on how you're doing, you're not focused on what you're doing. So you always have to be in a moment. So even though you intend to be disease free

or to not be infected, you can only manage right now and things change. So you have to be able to be in a moment and then see clearly and then keep making choices. And when you choose unwiseely, you learn from that. So that's the process. It's not a straight line. It's more like a zigzag.

So you get off, you come back, you get off, you come back. And that's the process. It's actually enthusiasm, you might say. And the only way you can have that energy is to be hopeful and to see a future that you're excited about. Because a nervous system likes to move towards what is pleasant. We live in the future we see.

So if we see a bright future, then the energy is going to be there. And then we're going to just keep going. Because we know we're going to get there. So the analogy I like to use is when you're a kid and you believe in Santa Claus, Christmas Eve, you can't even go to sleep. Because you're so excited about Christmas

because you know it's going to happen. So what is it, what kind of future are we creating? And that's where hope comes in, we're hopeful that we can get to this place, but it's not just a hope alone where we hope, but we don't take responsibility and don't do the work. You have to do the work, you have to be on task and you have to continue to learn from setbacks and start to see things, not as roadblocks, but as stepping stones. So it's this optimism. We know that the cognitive functioning, our ability to think and why it's thinking so

important because it's our thoughts that create these scenarios and our mind about how things are going to turn out. So if we have self-talk, this is an alignment with achieving the goal. It's going to be great. It's going to be a great journey. I don't know what's going to happen, but it's going to be great. Then that creates a certain enthusiasm. It creates a certain joy, a certain just continuing to be in the moment, to live each step, to have joy in each moment. That's a different energy. step to have joy in each moment. That's a different energy. You talk about being in the moment,

it's a venerable contemplative concept that many people have trouble actually doing myself included. But it's so useful to be reminded of it because many of us, when we have hope or optimism and we're working toward a goal, whether it's normal sea after this. horrifying pandemic or any other personal or professional goal. I'll just speak for myself here, I found that it's in some ways it's easy to defer the happiness. Defer the enjoyment of your actual life as you're living it right now until you get this thing, until you get to whatever goal you've set for yourself, forgetting that all you've ever got is right now. And so you might as well maximize your current life.

Yes. The research says you're happy for us, then you're successful, not the other way around. See, because when you're happy, you have a positive mind state, the certain endorphins that are being experienced. And so because you're happy and your heart is open when you're happy, you have a positive mind state, the certain endorphins that are being experienced. And so because you're happy and your heart is open and you're fully present, fully engaged, you're going to get better results. So we keep thinking, I'll be happy when I get there. But you may never get there. The Joseph Cameron said, follow your bliss.

It's kind of the same thing. So if you follow your blessing, you don't get to the moon, you have bliss. So, and then we realize it's to the moon, you have bliss. So and then we realize it's a journey itself, not the destination. So that's what I mean. So we had this idea. That's what I always train. But now I say, joy now and never, it's about this moment. Because if you think about it, let's just contemplate something right here. Right now, in this moment, there's nothing wrong. Right. Well, I'm trying to, I'm trying to refute that. Yes. Yes.

Let me know when you do because you can't refute it. The only way it could be wrong is you have to think about the past or the future. You can't be here now. What about if I'm standing in front of a speeding train, there will be something wrong in that moment. Well, it'd be something wrong if you don't move. But if you accepted this speeding train coming in that moment. Well, it'd be something wrong if you don't move. But if you accepted this feeding train coming in this moment, you're aware this acceptance then the compassionate action is to move out of the way. And that's why we can't get rid of the ego or the reptilian brain because the reptilian brain is in fight flight

of freeze. It has the instinctive quality where it will move you out of the way versus going to the cerebral cortex and reflecting on should I move or not? What if my spouse is in the hospital on a ventilator with COVID? Something is wrong in this moment. Well, think about it. So right now in this moment, they're on a ventilator, but they're still alive.

Where it gets to be a problem is when you're saying they're on the ventilator and they're gonna die. Or they're gonna do this, or I won't see them, or whatever. But in this moment, we can just be present and then pray for them, be loving, to do things where we can use this moment to help us have awareness acceptance and compassion at action because yeah, they're probably going to die if they don't die in the villain

later going to die at some point, they're going to die. So how does that inform us of how we live now? So we're in discomfort because we're sad and all of that, but we can hold that, we can embrace that and not project it into the future to pass and just feel what's there and just fully be engaged in it and fully feel it. If we can do it without identifying with it, just say, okay, there's sadness, there's a heaviness here. And I'm sad about it and just embrace that and say

this relationship become I love what is unavailated and that's real. I'm not saying you're going to have peace in the sense where you're not going to feel the discomfort, you're not going to feel the sadness, you feel that angst or whatever it is, that pain. It's called a pain. It's going to be there But if you can hold the pain in a particular way where you have peace within that pain. What I mean by peace, I mean, you're not making it worse and not identifying with it because we don't just have the pain. We start playing out scenarios or how it's gonna turn out badly. And then we get into the 5th thing or then this associate thing, yeah, I remember this happened with my grandma. I went through this again.

I don't want to go through that again. Then you're not present, you're not here. You're off somewhere else, and then you're stirring up, and you're creating more and more anger or turmoil. That thinking is taking you there instead of just saying, yeah, something happens, and then we get the opportunity and interpret it in a way that connects us with a dynamic energetic way

of relating to it. We can relate it to it in a way where you know something, if and they get out of this, I'm going to share as every moment I have with them. And guess what? There's still, I have kids or I have other people, loved ones. I have to learn from this so that I'm fully present with them and fully understanding that we're not guaranteed the next moment. So how do I want to live now? So joy now or never means that joy is available even if you're in the throes of a heroin addiction, even if your husband's just called and said he wants a divorce, even if your child's in crisis.

At any given moment, there is nothing wrong. Joy is available. Yes, because if you're in the moment and you're just living in the moment, that's it. But it's easier said than that. But in the moment, that's when we experience our greatest joy when we get into flow and when we are really happy, we are fully present.

We're fully engaged in the moment. And so that's what I mean. Joy now and never so it's like saying so enjoying the fact that I'm breathing and breathing out. Tid not Han has this saying about the non-tuthache. You don't appreciate the non-tuthache till you get a toothache. So if you appreciate the non--thake, you can do that now. You can appreciate as John Cavizen says, it's long to your breath and there's more right with you than wrong with you. Enjoy this in breath. Enjoy this out breath.

Enjoy being engaged with you. Just being fully present. Enjoying being with you as you are and just being fully engaged, given you my undivided attention. That's another word for love or openness. It's being vulnerable, just being open and being able to just see you as you are. Now, that's I want you to be or anything else. But I see the masterpiece. I see the divine spark.

That's what I'm relating to. Your Buddha nature, your Christ consciousness, whatever. So I can see you that way. And when I see you that way, I'm also seeing myself that way. So if I focus on which right, I'm going to have more positivity. So that's a skill, what Shraddhikod called positive genius, to stimulate hope and optimism for positive genius, a positive mindset, or what we would call right view

To have a host of mindset and love is just a kind of a one way of saying it if you're seeing it from love open Heart open mind Seeing the person embrace in the person of the situation as it is without trying to change it to see in the beauty the essence of it for some of us it might be you look at a half grown rose and we see it as a perfectly imperfect rose. That's a choice. So love, I think you use the word love a lot. And I believe that you use it in the way that I use it, which is way larger than the love you might see on a romcom, or the love the way it's traditionally used in pop music, for example.

There's a book called The Out of Loving by Eric From, and he talks about love as a verb, and it's productive. So when you love something, you make a grow. So you label what you love, you love what you label for. And he talks about self love. So he talks about care, self-care, attending to my, you know, basic needs, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. He talks about responding to those needs or being responsible. I am responsible for those needs. But he also talks about having the knowledge of knowing myself to the degree that I know how to care for myself.

I know how to respond to myself. And I know how to respect myself and allow my essence or my inner spark to express itself as it is to respect it as it is not to try to be somebody else but to be yourself. So when we love something, we care for it, we respond to it, and we respect it being as it is, not trying to change it but being with it as it is and relating to it and helping it grow. So self-love is self-care, self-responsibility or responding to our own needs. And that means also getting outside help others and then self-respecting who we are. And how do we know that?

Be still and know. Our heart will tell us, just listen to what resonates for us. When do I feel fully alive? So that's what I'm about. Know that self. You got a masterpiece, but you have to know what your individual uniqueness is.

And if I can help you define yourself. So if you know yourself, so you can be yourself, so you can express yourself, so you can share yourself. Now we're rolling. Now everything is cool. So the hope will come from just seeing somebody say, Oh, they're fully embodied. So this hope for me. So my job is share what I've gotten. And saying, listen, there's the possibility of both embracing whatever comes up. I don't care what it is. And still generating the hope. Based on that, what happens. And the question is, okay, so how do you relate to it in a way that empowers you as far as you helps you to grow and to use it as a stepping stone, not as a roadblock?

That's what it comes down to. Much more of my conversation with George Mumford coming up right after this. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong.

What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. You use terms like knowing yourself or, oh, he's fully embodied. What do you mean by that? I mean, what came to mind is, and I can't believe I'm about to do this,

because I always make fun of people who quote, roomy, but here we go. Roomy, the poet, the Sufi poet talks about a true human being knows the alchemy of greeting whatever comes up in your mind with friendliness, hospitality, treating any petty meanness or jealousy with honor. Is that what you're referring to? Yes, awareness, then acceptance,

this is what it is, but I have to really not only see it, but understand it, know it, both to see in the know. And so it's like, so there's a part of me when I got clean, I realized I had just need to be intellectually stimulated. Now, and I see it as pursuing excellence and wisdom, grace and ease. But I had to honor that. So I read a book a week for the last 36 plus years. And well, there's other things. And so I teach a lot because if you want to learn something something you teach it. So I have to on of that that's me there's a part of me to say and do man.

I have curiosity I need to understand I'm a seeker I got to own that I got to on of that it's just an expression that's what I mean but we have to be still in no and and then listen to our heart, listen to what we're excited about, stuff like that. So, but it's an internal job. That's why it's challenging because the world will tell you who they think you are, who they want you to be. And we don't really have a school set up where we're saying that people set a learning subject. We want you to learn about yourself.

You have a mind, body, heart, and soul. And you have to understand how you need to align those fork aspects of being so that you're fully engaged and you really feel fully integrated, right? So when I say fully embodied that means that you're in your body and you're just doing what you're doing because of the thing itself not because some gaining idea or not because of fear. So you're not coming from fear or desire, you're just being there because that's what's important, what you're doing now and how you're being now. And it's just doing it in and of itself. Or what chick sent me, I would call auto tele personality. It's the activity itself, not the end result, or what it brings you or what it might take away from you. It's just be fully

engaged in what you're doing. And you have moments like that when you're fully there. And I suspect when you're dealing with the little guy and you're fully there with him is an amazing experience. When you're just there and just let him be who he is. And you're just there. And the kids teach us that because that's who they are before we get to them. Does that make sense? teaches that because that's who they are before we get to them. Does that make sense? It does, but you said before, hopefully I thought easier said than done.

You know what I mean? Because I can't tell you how many times I've been with my son and it's been incredibly joyous and I can't tell you how many times I've also been with my son and found myself checking my phone and then telling myself I'm a monster because I just did that. Yeah, so once again, something happened

and how you interpret that is, so on you, you can interpret as you get on your phone because there's an urge there or you need more space but you don't have to make yourself wrong. So this is how we have to be able to have an uncritical observation or mindful observation. You did that but don't make it wrong or right. Just notice it doesn't work, it doesn't not work.

How do you feel when you do that? How are you able to not do that before? You need to understand that because if you want to understand that then you can replicate it. How good are you at staying in every moment? That's interesting. It depends on the day depends on how much N. N. D. depends on what the activity is. But here's what I'm noticing, that it doesn't matter if I'm in a moment and not what matters is if I'm aware of it and if I don't make myself wrong for it, that's the most important thing.

So when you wake up from whatever distraction you've been caught up in, how are you to yourself right there? Yeah, I just say, oh, that's interesting. How did that happen? Okay, and the other thing is, it's just the way it is. Our lifestyle, I'm up in Maine. I have to get away.

You know, I've been kind of here for years and I didn't realize why I would come up during basketball season when I work with college basketball teams. They go home for Christmas. I come up here for two days. This would be on the beach, walk along the beach, meditate, be relaxed for no reason, just to settle in. And I was doing it because that's how I got back to my center, back to myself

because the busyness of everything is really challenging, right? So I find these pockets of stillness. Now, I do it in my daily life. Then I started learning wherever I am. I could take a moment, just sit and breathe. It'd be fully present. And then there's noticing that I'm not present. That's the whole thing. It's a mere mind. If you're mindful, be in, unmindful, you'll be in mindful.

Say that again. If you're mindful, be in unmindful, you'll be in mindful. Right. Of course, you can. Yes. Yeah. So that's what we have. We have this conundrum where we can observe ourselves in a way. And the idea is just to notice it without judging, which is really challenging. But if we can have an uncritical observation of ourselves or mindfully just noticing like mirror my, oh, when this happens, that happens. Well, how do you feel about that? Do you feel more collected or less? Do you feel more yourself, or less yourself? And then you ask those questions and you start to say, well, how, why am I seeing things that way?

And if I see them a different way, then it changes everything. And so what do I want? And who do I need to be to get what I want? And so it's about being, it's about understanding how you can be fully engaged in your son because he's teaching you how to be fully engaged with everybody else.

Especially yourself. Let me go back to love and fear, which is, you know, there are these two modes you talked about. We can be in love or we can be in fear. It's not dissimilar to the modes of being awake or asleep or mindful or unmindful. I'll stop beating around the bush and put this in a personal sense. I definitely prone to fear and today I got a phone call that I can't talk about, but it scared the hell out of me. And even in this conversation, I do find myself drifting away to that phone call and all the things that I'm now going to have to deal with as a consequence. And so how do you deal with things like that? Because I'm sure there are things that scare you if there's something going on with somebody

who love. Yeah. So, so so this is an acronym. What is the acronym for fear? False evidence appearing real. Okay, so you can see it anyway you want. So, but the fear is also helpful because if you're afraid of the child's stove or something, so there's rational fear

and then there's irrational fear. But here's the thing, when you care about something and if you feel it's threatened, there's this hard to be present. When you're in fear, you can't be hopeful or you might hope, but you're you don't believe it. So when you're in that mindset, when you're in the fear, when you're in survival mode, that's a reptilian brain. It only knows fight, flee, and freeze, forge for food, and reproduce. That's all it does. So instead of making it around, we just notice fear is there, and what are you afraid of? What is it?

So now you investigate how's it feeling your body? You have this tightness, you have this, you know, pitnestomic, whatever it is, if you can relate to it on that level of bare sensation, just be with the tightness without the story around it, because you're not just thinking about what you're afraid of, you're playing out scenarios in your head how it's going to go wrong. Correct. And you have images about that. Yes. So that's what you're creating.

Correct. So when you get to a place of peace and ease and understanding, now those scenarios, this and my experience are going to be how it's going to work or okay, just don't close another one open. Don't worry about it. Come be all right. But it's telling us something, but you give it all the power it has. You give it all the meaning it has. I was just jumping on that.

It's gonna be all right. That is not some polyanna, you know, pathological sense of like everything's gonna be fine no matter what the world is great. I've got, you know, rainbows coming out of my nose. What you mean by that is you have what it takes to deal with whatever arises. We call it strong self-efficacy belief

that no matter what happens, we know we're gonna make a choice that we can choose our response. And so this is what's really important, how we develop strong self-efficacy through mastery of the experiences. So these difficulties, we know something's gonna happen, we don't even know what's gonna happen,

where we know we can choose our response. This is Victor Frankl says when he talks about finding meaning. He says one way of finding meaning is creating an audit, doing a deep experiencing something or encountering someone. And the third thing he says is the attitude we have an unavoidable suffering. In fear, we can choose to be in love, be in joy, or be in peace. That's a choice. And so that's what I'm talking about. It's like we get to choose and I've been through how I contain the code through hell, you know, and help see all sorts of things. But I know this that as long as I can choose my response to it, and even if I die, I can choose how I want to die. So I'll give an experience. So my uncle William, when he was dying, he decided to go without taking

medication because he wanted to meet us, make it with clear consciousness. So when people understand that they get to choose how they die, that's a freedom. And so we can say yes to death, we can say yes to life. Most of the time we say no to life. But it's really just realizing that yeah, that's hard or it's challenging. When I say the word hard, I change it to challenging. Because that's what the elites do. Leap performers don't see curses.

They see challenges, opportunities. Okay, there's something for me to get here. And so maybe by me dying this way, maybe there's something about how I want to die. I get to choose my attitude and what happens to me. This unavoidable out of my control. And when we have a little motor come a control, like I choose and I response, versus reactant to something, that little motor come can grow. So we have more, we might have a little space between stimulus and response, but that will grow. We start to realize that no matter what happens to us, we have a massive piece, we can choose wisely.

And maybe we can choose our attitude on how we want to relate to that situation. No one can take that away from us unless we give it to them. This is a near total non-sequitor, but you referenced an uncle. And I seem to remember you told me in a personal conversation a while ago that you have another uncle who's over 100 years old. Does he still around? Yeah, he passed away last year. I think he was, there's a family feud about whether he's 109 and 107, but he died in

2020. But I don't have that many uncles left. I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not saying Yeah, the Myon Coals were good teachers. I mean, they grew up in a South, so they had devastating experiences, but they always seem to be able to have some joy or at least share joy with me. So yeah, you see people, I have a friend who passed away with COVID, name is Maurice, he was a Holocaust survivor, same thing with him.

He grew up in hell, but he was a gentle man and a kind soul after going through the Holocaust. Back to this notion of hope as a skill, not that we ever really left it, but to go back to it in a more direct way. Can we spin through the four A's again, just so people can walk away with a sense of how to do this? Yes. So awareness, at least acceptance acceptance when we can see clearly and we can know, but then we see it, but then immediately we push it away or we pull it towards us. I'm saying

not to do either, but to be in just let it speak for itself in its own language, right? Whatever the awareness is, then the acceptance piece is the most challenging piece because it's unpleasant and a nervous system is wired to have a version. So we have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. We got to be vulnerable. So yeah, this is what's happening. I don't like it. And I on some level, I don't need to say that, but I have to accept it. Because this is what's happening.

And if I accept what's happening, then the action that I take in response or reaction to it, it's going to be more precise. And I'll be able to, because I have to own it. I have to say, yes, this is happening in like my addiction. So it's the awareness of it or mirror mind, just reflecting what's there, then accepting it as it is, things are happening because the conditions are right for it to happen. And this is just nature. This is the nature of it to be where it is. And then once I embrace it, then the question is, how do I relate to it in an energetic way or in compassionate way? How do I relate to

this situation? So you talked about, you know, feeling, I don't know, not so good when you're answering your phone, when you're with your son. So the compassionate action is to forgive yourself and learn from it and then the assessment what works So you see yourself beating yourself up the assessment is well how's that working for you? It's not okay So now you get to learn and practice so that the next time you get in that situation you have awareness you have acceptance Then your action will be more compassionate where you say okay? That's not what I want to do and that's what happens

So be compassionate and look at it. Like, what can I learn here? What's the lesson? So if I'm hearing you correctly, it seems like you're really talking about a kind of self-awareness, a mindfulness that will allow you to see when you're on point and when you're not, when you're awake and when you're asleep. So then a straight up mindfulness practice

where we sit, watch our breath, and then every time we get distracted, we start again. That seems perhaps to be the one that goes most directly at the a's. Yeah. So let's talk about that. I'm glad you brought that up because what happens is when you start meditating and you have the thing that you have an exclusive object like the breath, as you say the breath. So you will hear breath and when your mind wanders off or gets distracted and thoughts, sounds and images, you come back to the breath. Well, it's sometimes when the distraction is so strong, the proper thing to do is to have awareness of it, accept it, then make that your opposite of meditation. And then just be with that. And so you're

accepting, yeah, I'm distracted because that, that your mind keep going, then just be with that. And so you're accepting, yeah, I'm distracted because that that your mind keep going. It's telling you something. You got to pay attention to it. You got to look at what is this. And then once you look at it and you accept it, then it's not going to be this push pull. It's going to be just like any other object is going to rise and fade away, but your relationship to it changes. So that's when your practice has to start to expand and not just be here. So that's the same with sitting or with a situation. Like you're going to like to me, it's like, okay,

so maybe I want to work on something, but I forgot the nails. You know, it's gonna work on something. I got to him with no nails. Okay, so I can be upset or then I can say, okay, so that's not gonna work today. So what else can I work on? So you make the shifts and that's like being like water,

that's like that's how you get in the flow. And you, it's like improv, whatever happens, you say yes to it and then you know, the current takes you down, then you decide how you want to ease out of it. And so if you want to practice loving kindness, that's always helpful. But to me, it's really more about what your life is telling you

it needs. And then you getting a clear understanding, you having awareness of what that is, then the acceptance of it. And then what's the compassionate action? What practice is consistent with me working with this particular issue? Yeah, I really resonate with that quite strongly that what type of practice I'm going to do on any given day, it really kind of depends on how I'm feeling on any given day.

But I find that mindfulness practice focusing on the breath or doing a noting practice that helps me just sort of be more awake to whatever cacophony is playing out in my head is really useful. And I find that in particular as an anxious person who is prone to put on the fear goggles instead of the love goggles that doing loving kindness practice or compassion practice can help kind of warm the system up and make me more likely to put the love goggles on than the fear ones.

Is there a question I should have asked that I didn't ask? No, you didn't miss anything but I think it's important for us to remember that we have a masterpiece within and we get to decide who we are being and it's an inside job. I was at a point where I thought I was going to always be a substance abuser. And so one day April 1st 1984 my friend Danny came over my house and he said, man, I'm looking at him and said, dude, man, what's going on? He's clean. He's sober. And he took me to A meeting. I had hope when I saw him. And I went to the meeting. I said, if he can do it, I can do it.

And what did he do? And I became curious. And I looked at it. And that's why that's the same with us. We can show the way. As my job is to be the message, you know, to be the door in which people walk through. As they say, this is my experience. This is what I know it can be helpful. So my job is to talk about it in a shared and a way

where people say, you can have hope. Hope is there for the choosing, but it's not static. It's something that we have to generate. It's a skill. And the skill is just sometimes just remembering, okay, well, Dan did it. I could do it.

George did it, or Sonso did it, or the Dalai Lama does it, or Mother Teresa did it, whatever, whoever the person, you know, we have to have somebody in some image or some role model that says, this is is and it's not like being like them is their qualities really is how this how they're being, you know, and the qualities like love and curiosity and compassion and courage those qualities of virtues are going to be helpful. But here is what's the relationship with hope with faith, vulnerability, and take an action. Before we go, I, I'm going to push you to a lot of people aren't so comfortable with

this. I want to push you to do it anyway. Can you just plug everything you got going on right now? I know you've got something on YouTube. Yes. I think else people should know about. Yes. So GeorgeMuffet.com is my website.

So we have the Mind for Athlete online course that people can sign up and join anytime. The YouTube channel, I do the being at home with George and the website is always something going on. They can get free PDF of I think a chapter of my book, we might have changed it to some other gift. Yeah, and you know, my book, The Mind for Athletic Secrets of Pure Performance. And of course, I have a course on 10% happier. I think maybe one or two, a couple of podcasts. So yeah, so that's how a lot of people

find me is through 10% happier. And I'm excited about being in partnership with my friend Dan and 10% happier. I got a lot of friends there and doing this work. And I appreciate this opportunity to speak to you all and to talk about hope, because this is what I would call a championship conversation. I appreciate you making the time to do it. It's always great to see you.

Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Dan. Thanks again to George. Always great to talk to him. If you enjoyed that conversation with George and you want to learn how to practice, what we talked about today, make sure to check out the brand new meditations that just dropped

under the Hope is a skill topic inside the 10% happier app. We'll include a link to the meditations in the show notes. You can download the 10% happier app today for free wherever you get your apps. This show is made by Samuel Johns, DJ Cashmere, Kim Baikimum, Maria Wartel, and Jen Point with Audio Engineering by Ultraviolet Audio. And as always, a big shout out to Ryan Kessner and Josh Kohan from ABC News. We'll see you back here on Wednesday for episode two

of our Hope series to brand new episode with Seven Eyed Celacie. Actually, this episode went in a direction that I did not foresee. We sort of make public a very private and challenging conversation. We recently had the two of us and I think both of us walked away feeling some hope.

So we're gonna talk about that. We'll see you then. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad free with 1-replus

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