Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 351: A Buddhist Approach to Patience | Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

These are not hospitable times for the mental skill of patience. Instant gratification has never been more thoroughly scaled. You can order food, taxis, and shampoo from your phone. Streaming services autoplay the next episode of whatever show you’re binging. You can ask Siri or Alexa for the weather, the latest sports scores, or the dating history of Paul Rudd. And on a deeper level, of course, global tumult is trying our patience -- with the pandemic, political polarization, climate disruption, and cultural divides over race, gender, and more.  My guest today comes armed with great tools we can all use to exercise a muscle that, for many, is badly atrophied. As you’ll hear him explain, the Buddhist approach to patience goes way beyond grin and bear it; instead it’s about developing a mind that can work positively with whatever is bothering us. Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche grew up in a monastic environment in Northern India. His father was said to be the third incarnation of a great Tibetan master. His mother was his first teacher -- a renowned practitioner who completed thirteen years of solitary retreat before she got married. Rinpoche now lives in the U.S. -- in southern Colorado, where he has a mountain retreat center called Longchen Jigme Samten Ling. His students include former guests on this show, such as Pema Chödrön, the best-selling Buddhist author, and Elizabeth Mattis-Namgyel, a teacher and author who is also his wife. Rinpoche has a new book out called Peaceful Heart: The Buddhist Practice of Patience. In this interview we talk about: how to define patience from the Buddhist lens; what practices he suggests for getting better at patience; the difference between patience and passivity; the challenges he still faces in the patience arena; and the role of patience in eating and in enduring physical pain.  Also: We're offering 40% off the price of a year-long subscription for the Ten Percent Happier app until June 1st. Visit https://www.tenpercent.com/may to sign up today. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/dzigar-kongtrul-rinpoche-351 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. These are, to say the least, not hospitable times for cultivating the mental skill of patience. Instant gratification has perhaps never been more thoroughly scaled. You can order food, taxis, shampoo, votive candles, whatever you want immediately from your phone, streaming services, auto play the next episode of whatever show you happen to be

binging. You can ask Siri or Alexa for the weather, the latest sports scores or the dating history of Paul Rudd. And on a deeper level, of course, global tumult is trying our patients all the time with the pandemic, political polarization, climate disruption, and cultural upheaval over race, gender, and more.

My guest today comes to us armed with all barrelful of great tools we can use to exercise a muscle that for many of us is badly atrophied. As you will hear him explain, the Buddhist approach to patients goes way beyond grin and bear it. Instead, it's about developing a mind

that can work in a positive way with whatever's bothering us. Zigar control Rinpoche grew up in a monastic environment in northern India. His father was said to be the third incarnation of a great Tibetan master. His mother was actually his first teacher. She was a renowned practitioner who completed 13 years of solitary retreat before she got married. Controver and Prashe now lives here in the US in southern Colorado where he has a mountain retreat center called Longchun, Jigmei, Samtunling. His students include former guests on this show,

such as Pemma Trodren, who's the best-selling Buddhist author, and control Rinpoche's own wife, Elizabeth Madis-Namgyel herself, and author. Rinpoche has a new book. It's called The Peaceful Heart, the Buddhist Practice of Patients. And in this interview, we talk about how to define patients from a Buddhist lens. What practice is he suggests for getting better at patients, the difference between patients and passivity, the challenges he still faces in the patients arena, and the role of patients in both eating and in enduring physical pain. One thing to share though before we dive in here. Recently, I was reflecting on a conversation I had earlier

this year with Lama Rod Owens, who's a brilliant meditation teacher. He also wrote a book called Love and Rage. And we were talking about the importance of establishing a meditation practice during good times. I think this is a quote from Bruce Lee where he says that in crisis, we don't rise to our expectations but we fall to our training. I don't think that's precisely the quote, but that's the gist that in a crisis, we are only embodying our training. I think sometimes we sit and say, okay, well, in a crisis, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z, I'm going to be really clear and I'm going to know exactly what to do. But when a crisis happens, actually, what happens is,

I just fall into my practice. Whatever my practice was before the crisis, that's where I'm at. So if I don't have a practice, and then it's very difficult, my teacher has always said, you know, it's really important to practice during the good times. Practice really hard during the good times, during the times where it's not a crisis where you're not overwhelmed. Really take advantage of those times because when something really happens, then sometimes we don't have the space to consciously say, okay, I'm going to pay attention to my thoughts. I'm going to create spaciousness and all of that. Sometimes we just don't think about it.

I play that clip because if you're in a position where you're starting to feel like you have your feet back under you, maybe you even had them back under you for a while, now could be a great time to start building that level of practice that can catch you when inevitably you're buffeted by crises with or big or small. As you know, I talk on this podcast quite a bit about our companion meditation app on that app, which is really my baby. I love that app. You can find guided meditations and also video slash audio courses.

All of them featuring some of the world's best teachers and scientists. You can also find short talks, which are filled with relatable wisdom, on topics ranging from happiness to anxiety and beyond. We also have one-on-one coaching from really experienced meditators and those folks can help you

keep your practice consistent and of a high quality. Right now we're offering 40% off the price of a year long subscription to the app. The offer lasts until June 1st. Hopefully this discount will give you a nudge if you need one. Of course nothing is permanent. So as I said, the deal ends on June 1st. And if you want to get it, go to 10% dot com slash may. That's 10% one word all spelled out dot com slash may for 40% of your subscription. Okay. Here we go now with Ziggar control Rinpoche. Rinpoche, great to see you.

Thanks for coming on. Thank you very much, Dan. It's great to be here and it's honor to be here in your show. It's an honor to have you. So the new book is about patience, something that we all need right now, especially in the middle of a pandemic. How do you define patience? Generally speaking, when we speak of patience, it is sort of understood largely as a green and bare with whatever is happening. But in the Buddhist teachings, in the Buddhist practice, of course, maybe initially you might have to kind of do that a little bit while you are being

agitated or while you are being irritated and while you feel sort of you need to kind of react. When you pass beyond that point, if you could just be present with what's happening in your physical, in the mental level and in the emotional level, then the patience is much to do actually with how do you actually constructively respond to the situation. Now, as always, the Lailama always quotes this from this very book, if there's something you could do, why to worry or why to lose your temper.

If there is nothing you could do, then what's the benefit? So you come to sort of explore your own sort of internal innate wisdom to see whether there is something that you could remedy. And if there is something you could remedy, then try to sort of get on with that skillful means and wisdom and then not to lose yourself to the kind of emotion of a sub-destructive or any kind of painful state of anger or resentment or even if you don't lash it out, of course if you lash it out then it's going to be much more problematic, but even if you don't lash it out, if you just kind of stay in that state, it's up a lot of your own peace and a lot of your own sense of well-being.

So, you know, try to sort of move on with what you could do to kind of remedy the situation and then come to the other side. So, it's a much to do with applying yourself to find the solutions rather than be stuck with emotion. Now if there's nothing you could do, and if it is a situation that what we all have recently for this last some months now, found to be sort of in the situation, then we try to relax and try to accept the situation

for the time being and do ourselves best to kind of if you have hobbies or if you have some other things that you kind of have kept in the background for you to do, then maybe try to sort of engage in those things and then try to see whether you could have time to accomplish that. And for the meditators, then I think this is also, you know, however it has been a really tremendous tragedy for the world and for all of us. It is also an opportunity for us to deepen our own meditation practice. So the patients here is more to do with sort of an application of yourself, with your

mind and your emotions rather than just agreeing in bear with the situations. So of course initially you might have to start a little bit that way because something happens and then you can't immediately sort of get on with the internal process. But what's happening in the initial even process, if you have some practice of patience, you could sort of know that is how you begin, so you could find some value in that experience of maybe feeling a little bit like a worked-up. You could sort of instead of rejecting it, you could feel confidence in yourself that in time it will subside, in time it will go away, in time you will work through this. So this is a sort of not a bad thing. It's actually a beginning of strengthening your own mind and

your own spirit and your own practice of patience. Let me just repeat back to you some of what I heard just to make sure that I've got it. It sounds like you're defining patience as the ability to be with whatever is coming up in our mind right now in a way that we don't react blindly to it, but we can make a sensible wise decision rather than just being yanked around by whatever's happening. Absolutely, I think that's really a very good way to put it. And then also, you know, what arises in the moment, also not to kind of reject it, and find some value in that, you know, usually when we do lose our patients or when we get agitated, these are two things going on. One, you know, we feel like we need to react, another we don't like what's happening inside of ourselves.

So if you don't react and if you don't have that kind of an resentment towards the experience itself and have some kind of an positive value for what's happening in one's experience, as a stepping stone to get beyond that and get yourself stronger and also much more sort of resolve with more sort of insight into how you could change yourself and how you could change your pattern of reaction. Then I think it's in a presentation over now, opportunity. So it's an opportunity to practice. If something powerful comes up, we have an opportunity to be with it instead of doing our habitual thing. Yes, absolutely. Of course, not a, I'm saying,

with any kind of claim that I have perfected to patience, but sometimes something happens and you feel a little bit annoyed or you feel a little bit agitated and you feel a little bit of an aggressive, you know that moment or that period of time, if you just simply know that in time it will subside, in time you know you will be able to work through this. In time you will be able to be stronger to overcome this emotion rather than become this emotion and act out badly. just awareness as what's happening with my experience, then the experience softens, you know, it doesn't go away right away, but it softens and it becomes much more sort of not compulsive. And then most of the time, through the kind of a self reflection and deeper sort of solicitation of your own kind of a wisdom to know how to approach the situation in the best way possible. Then you find a solution and then you're so happy that you haven't reacted.

You haven't made a mess and you haven't caused pain to your own self and to others most importantly, and then, you know, the relationship is preserved, no any bridges are burned, and you know, so much happier that you have not reacted. So, that initial phase is a sort of a very critical, I think. What practices do you recommend for those of us who are aware we need to develop our patients. I think a breathing technique in the moment and then taking time off to kind of have some space and time to kind of settle your mind and emotions without feeling urge to react right away and feeling kind of a immediately you need to do something to sort of overcome that, what's going on inside. When you do that, most of the time, it makes it worse. So if you just take time to kind of either work through with your own in it,

wisdom or subside, I think everybody has a lot of attention in that way. A lot of the times it's just a, you know, not really that deep of an anger or that deep of an emotion, of an aggression by various circumstances. It's not only related to what you think. It could be your own physical fatigue or your own lack of sleep that contributes to, you know, your sensitivity or your reactivity. So you are annoyed or you are irritated or you are a little bit snappy. And if you take time to kind of a sort of out and come to know what's going on, you would

not really find so much in my view, my greatest sort of hope is that people really, instead of looking at the patient's practice as a passive approach, patients is really opposite of that. It's a very proactive and it's a very constructive practice and it's a very conscious practice of strenting your mind and your emotions do not succumb to the various factors that sort of like makes you lose your temper and not doing anything about it. It's about being able to work with your own emotions, which is the opposite of passive. It's extremely challenging and also beneficial to you and everybody around you. But I do want to see if I can dig deeper with you on meditation practices that we can use to develop this capacity.

Because I think by now, having listened to what you've said as far, everybody will be sold on the value of patience and instead will be in this place where people are questioning, well how do I get this? Yeah, I think in the Buddhist teachings, especially in the Mayan Buddhist teachings, to have this sort of a tender heart towards all humanity, just this recognition of how we are all in the same boat. And there's no really differences between yourself and others, seven billion or almost eight billion people on the planet. Now, the difference is, however, seemingly is there, it's just in the outside, in the inner makeup of who we really are, wishing to be happy and longing to be free from suffering.

There's no difference. So therefore, you know, this notion of having us as much as possible, kind of a universal love as you have it for yourself, for all mankind, and then try to cultivate that sort of a tender heart with the prayers and actively wishing all beings and all human beings, particularly here on the planet, to find happiness, freedom from suffering and pain. That is really the greatest valuable thing that we have in our human consciousness to achieve and to preserve. I once heard Asufi Master was asked by a student on what's heaven and the Master said, love in your heart.

And then the student asks, what's hell, lacking that in your heart. So that being the kind of essential thing, now if you have that, then you have all of the happiness inside of you, and there may be some other conditions that can enhance that, but essentially you have all the happiness that you can ever experience inside of you. So that being kind of the overall training, which of course it's going to take some time and it's going to have some transformation needed. So I mean there's a value for patients on its own, but there's more value for patients if you actually have the patients to kind of protect that heart of yours in the first place to have a sort of an ongoing tender heart or tender love towards all humanity.

So I would really encourage in the Buddhist practice, the material practice, the Kharuna practice as a sort of a foundation for the patients to be also done. Can you say more about what those practices in tail, Kharuna and Matria? The Matria practice is a sense of wish for all humanity to be happy. When you first actually think or may all humanity be happy, may all human beings who are

like myself on the earth to be happy, you might actually, you know, not feel so much. But then when you look at inside, how you are always sort of like a longing that kind of an happiness, and then if you could sort of like emanate the same kind of an emotion to company that wish for all humanity to be happy, and then have the same longing being transferred to all human beings who are on the planet who are, for example, in this situation with the pandemic, to be also happy, happy in this case, you know, to be able to be free from this situation and threat, and be able to come back to their life as a normal and how it was before. So, there would be the material practice. And then Karuna would be more like those who are suffering. You know, those who are suffering, we know there are a lot of people who are suffering right now with lots of family members and lots of friends and lots of parents or children in this time.

So, to feel their sense of a loss and the pain, and then hopefully to kind of join them in their state for them to be able to relieve from that pain in time with being able to kind of a move forward and also to be able to move forward with the grievances from the loss of loved ones or whatever the implications of that loss has affected them personally, how to have a sort of sense of being able to move beyond that. That would be more corona, so connecting with the sort of sense of being able to move beyond that. That would be more corona, so connecting with the sort of state where they are and then wishing them to be able to find peace beyond that.

On this show, we've talked a lot about practicing friendliness or loving kindness and also corona or compassion meditation. So listeners, at least the ones who've been around for a minute, will be familiar with those practices, but just so I understand how you teach it. So with what you're calling a mitreo practice or a friendliness or a loving kind of practice, you would sit and generate the wish that you yourself be happy and then you would turn that wish out to all beings. And similarly, with Karuna or compassion practice, you would try to generate the feeling that all beings be free from suffering and then when the feeling wanes, you just try to re-up it. Or is there more to the practices you teach it? Absolutely. I think you said it very eloquently and in a very sad sink.

And sometimes when you don't feel so much the emotion, you know, if you look at inwardly how you long happiness, then you have an example what you must have in a loving kindness for others as well. And then if you don't feel corona, when you turn inwardly and then how you long to be free from your own pain, you have an example right there to sort of emulate for others. So using your self as a reference to project that same emotion for the others, does the work of transforming your own sub-centred mind and the habitual mind. So that's also very valuable.

You've been studying meditation for many, many years and you've just finished this book on patience. I'm curious, where is the edge for you? Where do you find yourself personally challenged in terms of practicing patience in your own life? Well, I think as a human being, you know, we have a range of all kinds of emotions. So the challenge is always there to practice patience.

And as I age and as I become older, what I find is I'm not so overthrown by the challenges. You know, I have a certain kind of record of my own self, knowing that I can work through this challenges. And I can work through this kind of irritations or you know annoyances or a little bit of a you know sort of a spiteful that comes up. So I don't judge them so much when they come up. So I think this kind of a little bit of the maturation that I think I have, you

know, regardless of times here and times there, I feel I really value the patient's practice. I know that the patient's practice really, as an armor, kind of keeps my peace intact and then I don't make a mess in my own mind, I'm able to keep my mind kind of clean and hard clean with the bodhiti, the practice, as a main practice. And then also I don't burn any bridges with others, and I don't do anything harmful with the speech or, of course, any other actions. You said bodhiti, chita practice is your main practice. What is that?

Some people won't know what bodhi-chita is or how you practice it. The bodhi-chita is this practice of keeping the flame of a tender heart or the universal love for all mankind or all living beings, being kind of a essence of your spiritual path. How do you practice it? Knowing that there's so much seemingly differences in the outside, internally how we are all made of the same mind that wishes to be happy, longs to be free from suffering, and we deserve to be happy, and we deserve to be free from suffering, and there's no really any gap, there's no any difference.

So try to embrace that, what I have a love for myself, that love being spread for all humanity. And what I have a concern for myself, that concern being spread for all humanity as much as possible. Though he bit truly, and with the unconscious mind, we go immediately back into our ego, and we go immediately back into our own self-care, we go immediately back into our own self-concern, and we spend much of our time, individually in that way,

but consciously trying to come back as much as possible to break away from that and try to sort of stay with the love for all and concern for all. So that's the kind of essence of the bodhicitta practice. It was interesting to hear you talk about your own experience with impatience now after all these years of practice. And you said something the effective like, I don't judge myself And you said something that the effect of like, I don't judge myself when impatience comes up. It almost feels like the bodhicitta you've developed, this basic goodwill toward all beings toward everyone, you can even send that toward the impatience as it comes up in your mind. When you meditate for a while, you become less and less judgmental with your thoughts and your emotions because you

know you have more direct contact with your thoughts and emotions in your meditative state. So you cannot even possibly always be judging your thoughts and emotions. You have to have some space and you have to have some humane, you have to have some patience because they are always, you know, randomly occurring in your state. So you have to have, you know, some sons of, they're just transitory, you know, and they just come and go and they're just nothing but a thought or nothing but an emotion. But when someone has not been observing their state and closely in contact with their thoughts and emotions, when a thought comes, the thought itself poses a challenge, then there is the kind of an overlay of judgments that we have towards having their thought or emotions. Then that becomes even a further more problematic challenge. So as someone who has meditated for some time,

the second one slowly kind of goes away as you know that you cannot be judging yourself just as to have a thought or just as to have an emotion. Because they are random, they just come up with the conditions ripening and you just let that be a transitory and let that be a just thought and let it be a just thought an emotion and then you know they're

not problem just as to arise. They dissolve as well. I was thinking about this issue of patients while I was eating lunch before this interview and I I noticed that for me eating is an area where impatience comes up a lot. I'm rushing through the meal, I'm not even tasting it, I'm thinking about what's coming next, and then as a consequence, I maybe eat more

than I need to eat because I'm not paying attention to how my body feels while I'm eating. Do you have any thoughts on the role of patience in eating? Well, I think this is a kind of interesting and thank you for this question because I find this somewhat ironic because in the East we have a lot of emphasis in eating and eating meals together and meals being most important. And then the West, especially in the nuclear families, especially in the many people who have a very packed schedule, eating is the least important. And it's almost like a news for a lot of people, they have to kind of do it.

I find that to be very, very culturally, very shocking and a little bit of an dumb founding for myself. However, I think eating is important and needed, not maybe perhaps like how in some of the cultures where it's everything and it's the kind of focal point of everyday the families coming together. You know, one needs to eat with some sense of appreciation, I think. In my view, I think whatever we do, that's essential and that's also once liking, if we have a connection and the connection has to be created. Connection happens and also it has to be created as well. It just is not only feasible to think connection is only there

if it happens organically and then if it doesn't happen organically, then there is no connection. So I think organically connection happens as well as also you need to create the connection that you want to create for example with eating. You need to create the connection of eating mindfully and as well as also with a deep sense of appreciation for the bite that you are going to have and of what you're going to put inside of your own body to nourish yourself. And whether it's just a sandwich or extended meal, that's up to you, but to have a sense of appreciation for what you're going to be doing.

In this case, it's essential and to have that kind of an approach, of an appreciation for everything you do within a organically, if there's a connection, that's being good, but also creating a connection consciously, appreciating every step of the way. Yes, we can turn eating into a kind of meditation for sure. I think that's how the Zen practitioners do, and I think that's really very, very powerful in this modern world to do or with whatever we do. Yes, in the Zen meditation tradition, there is meal times or very much a meditation, but I think I've seen that in the teravata world as well. Let me ask you another personal question, personal on my end, not yours. My meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, talks a lot about

noticing rushing during the day, the feeling of rushing. I don't know if I'm going to be able to crystallize this into a question per se, but I do notice as I move through the day, as somebody who has a packed schedule, that there's this physical sensation, probably along the rib cage, I would say, of tension and tightness that comes up quite a bit of just rushing toppling forward throughout the day. And if I'm not right on top of it, if I'm not aware that this is happening, it can diminish the quality of my work

or the quality of my relationships. So I say that all of that because it seems directly relevant to patients to see if you have any thoughts. In the Tibetan Buddhism we call it karmic wind. There's always some kind of karmic wind that is churning inside of your body that writes your thoughts, that writes your emotions, that writes your physical actions. So sometimes, essentially, all of the meditation practice, as it goes deeper, has to come to connect with the nature.

And the nature is not created. Nature being nature, it's not created. Therefore, if you are involved in this karmic wind and being carried by the karmic wind with the help of even more with the caffeine, then it's very difficult to connect with that nature, you know. So therefore, I think being still, however, maybe perhaps it takes a little time, in most of the cases, it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to completely sort of let go of that rushing or that kind of a speed or that kind of karmic wind to unwind itself.

Then you get to the place where actually there's a minimum of that, and then you connect with the nature. And that's a great rejuvenation. There's no greater rejuvenation than that in one's life, I feel. There's no greater healing than that. And there's no really a greater sort of a restoration of your mind and your brain, even I hear, than just being able to sort of get beyond that comic window and then just rest in the nature. And so you have to know that in your case, how long it takes.

Sometimes I think the posture is very helpful in archedition, hugging the knees with your palms is very helpful because all of the nerve ends are in the hand. So, you're when you're hugging the knees as you're sitting on the chair or as you're sitting across the leg, it sort of has a natural effect of winding down. So, if you know that it takes 15 minutes, you have to be kind of a patience with 15 minutes. And if you know it takes 20 minutes, you have to be patient with the twenty minutes and then if you get to the other side you might want to not get out of that relaxation.

So then again you rest in there as the time allows you to do so and then not indulge it because if you indulge it then it affects your schedule and it affects your day and it affects your life. So, you know, not try to prolong it, but whatever that sort of time you have in hand, just kind of sit there, half of it, working towards it, half of it being in it, and then maybe perhaps coming off it, and then just really being refreshed, I think I'm sure you have that experience. So you have to know how long does it take, and then in that time, not sort of feel impatient with yourself.

But as you turn up, it takes time to turn down. It's not like there's a magic to get into it right away. Yes, I mean, you described exactly the remedy that I reach for when it's possible, which is, if I'm noticing that I'm being carried along by large, unwieldy gusts of karmic wind, one really useful thing to do is to take breaks to meditate throughout the day to let that energy on wine so that I can re-engage with whoever or whatever is in front of me in a more sane way. Much more of my conversation with Ziggar Contraryl Rinpoche right after this.

Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What is happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time, pure on earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast, Life is Short with Justin Long.

If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk help you, but I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs, and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers.

We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like, if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow Life is Short, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wondering App. I know one area of focus for you in the book that you've just written is giving instruction for having patients with physical pain during meditation. I believe you call the practice simmering. Simmering, yes. Meditation practice is built upon the self-awareness. Awareness of what's happening with your physical body and the sensations

that is occurring in your physical body, or what's happening in your mind with your thought process, and what kind of emotions they are being brought up and how you are reacting. So it's all observing and not getting amashed with what's happening. When you're observing without getting amashed, of course it's a little bit of a challenging in the beginning, but you could do it. Then you're simmering in their experience. All experience being a transitory experience, they dissolve, including their physical pain, also dissolve. And then you

find yourself in the other side with some kind of a sense of peace and tranquility. And that's the power of the self-organism. As we're trying to develop patience, do we need to be patient with ourselves? In other words, there may be times where I'm meditating, a physical pain comes up and I'm trying to be with it, but it's, you know, maybe I'm early on in my meditation practice and it's just too much. I can't, I've sat with this pain in my knee for five minutes, ten minutes, maybe now is the time to, you know, change my posture. Yeah, I think that's a very advisable, and I think for a lot of the Western people, the cross-leg is very difficult.

So I think sitting on the chair is a very good alternative, and it seems to have no really that major difference on the effects on the mind as how a mind needs to kind of get beyond the kind of activities and then connect with the nature. You've mentioned this phrase a couple times connecting with nature. Can you unpack for us exactly what you mean by that? Well, when you get beyond the face of first concentrating on the breath, then observing your thoughts, then noticing your thoughts are rising and seizing, without getting amashed with your thoughts or emotions, then you arrive in a place of your own awareness

being expanded, expanded where there is no really any kind of focal point, but it's a panoramic awareness. And you see your thoughts and your emotions occurring in your state in that awareness. And you see your thoughts and your emotions occurring in your state in that awareness. And then it also dissolves. And then sometimes for a moment you might not have a thought or emotion. And it's just a lucid awareness. And it's a present and it's clear and it's very much sort of like you are feeling in the state of peace. A lot of people recall this as a sort of being at home. So that's the nature. And arriving at there is making the connection and connecting with it.

So when you are a machine in the parts and when you are a machine in the parts and when you are Emotions and when you are reacting, that nature is always there. Like the screen is always there while the movie is taking place, but we don't connect with that. But can't we view everything that happens in our mind from embarrassing little thoughts about whether we need to make a dentist appointment to petty resentments that come up, to powerful emotions, to yes the awareness that holds it all. Can't we view all of that as nature?

When you are seated in that panorama awareness, and then when everything is sort of unfolding and you are not amassed in them, then everything is part of the nature. But when you are immersed with your thoughts, when you are immersed with your emotions, and then when you are reacting, that panoramic awareness is you're not subaware. It's all happening in the kind of what we call it, deep mental fog. But panoramic awareness, this arriving at panoramic awareness,

it sounds to me and it may sound to listeners as something that's very hard to achieve. But if I'm here, you correctly, you're saying as long as we're not in mesh in our thoughts, so I might notice that I'm having a series of selfish or petty thoughts, but as long as I'm seeing them for what they are, then I'm not enmeshed, and then I'm seated in... Am I correct in assuming that at that point, that's the natural awareness to which you're referring? Yes, that's right.

Like, if you're not a mesh, yet at the same time, you are able to see them as a transitory state that arises and dissolves, like a writing a letter on the water, then most probably you are in the nature. I'm sensitive to your time. Are there questions about patience or about your book that I should have asked but did not ask? No, I think you ask very good questions. I'm so much grateful for your show and your quest to reach out to so many people, to kind of just entice them to have a somewhat of an internal focus and the internal discipline to observe what's happening in their own minds, in their own states. And then maybe perhaps find some interest in the discipline of working with one's mind. Because we know in the modern world, and we know in the capitalist country,

there's so much focus that goes on to outside. But where a little focus goes into what's taking place inside of one's mind, that's almost like you should already know it to be a good person or to be a decent person or to be an intelligent person. You should almost give in that you should know what's happening in your mind. But there's so much that if you are not turning inwardly, that you don't know. And the whole work begins by turning inwardly.

So you are outreach really, in my view, contributes so much to the kind of a changing of the landscape of how people can be more happier or content, or find the kind of happiness and the contentment within themselves rather than conditionally being brought in their lives. So I really am such a fan of your work in this way and I'm so honored to be in this show. And of course, patients practice or any of the, but this practice is in line with that. So, you know, I'm also very grateful to be able to, you know, join in in that effort.

Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that, and I think you articulated exactly what my goal is, which is to get people really selfishly to train myself to look inside, see what's going on so that I am not so owned by all of these, as you call them correctly, sort of transitory thoughts and urges and emotions and then, of course, once I have learned how to do that for, and I continue to learn to try to teach other people how to do it. And that is just another way of describing this quality that you've just completed a book on, which is patience. And just in closing here, you talked about our modern world, and it strikes me just that it's worth acknowledging the obvious here, which is that our modern world seems designed to train us in the opposite of patients. You don't have to wait a week to see the next episode of your favorite show. It's gonna auto play as soon as the episode you're watching

has completed. You wanna find out what the circumference of the sun is, just ask Siri or Alexa. We are in an era where boredom is optional because you've got a supercomputer in your pocket. Instant gratification has never become more instant. It seems like this capacity of patients that you're trying to help us build is under assault. It is, really, it is really true.

Though, of course, the modern facilities and the modern technology has enhanced our lives in many ways, but it has also really sought, just as you said, to kind of any discipline that we have with our own internal process of deepening our own knowledge and understanding as well as also cultivating certain kind of morals and ethics or any kind of qualities that we in the past cherish and have so much of value to being kind of all now being somewhat assault in a sense not consciously but everybody's time goes to just constantly being engaged with the smartphones and giving one's life fully sort of run by the smartphones and the gadgets that is more and more enticing. And how to break that, how one can sort of separate from that, we haven't really come

to any good consensus. I think there's a talks about how the social media and all of this is changing our lives and all of the new ways that we are living with smartphones, running constantly our lives and having that in our hands constantly to check and be engaged. But I don't think there is a sort of from the young age as five, six, two people who are in the 70s, in the 80s, we haven't really quite come to find an kind of coherent understanding of how much we should be allowed in our lives. And it's not a problem, and perhaps a productive, and then beyond some point how much that is not healthy, and it's not even a productive, it just runs your life. We haven't come to any kind of a conclusive understanding globally,

and it's being sort of going, and going, and going. More and more, every day in precious time on this earth being lost to just being amached with the technology. Well, said, and as my friend Catherine Price has said, we're running a global, I believe it's Catherine who said this might be actually Manouche de Merotti, but either Catherine or Manouche or both has said that we're running a global, unregulated, unplanned experiment with technology and what it does to our brains and our minds and it's, um, it's a very addictive, you know, yes, it's very addictive.

It's a really very, very addictive and it just consumes our precious life on this earth to do meaningful things. Yeah, technology can be powerfully great in many powerful ways, and I don't think either of us is a luddite, but there are lots of challenges as well, and one of them is, of course, to patients. So I appreciate you coming on the show and giving us some tools for boosting our capacity for patients. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Dan. It's a great to see you and best of luck for all your effort. Thanks again to Rampushe, really appreciate

him coming on. This show is made by Samuel Johns, DJ Cashmere, Kim Baikomar, Maria Wartel, and Jen Poient with audio engineering by ultraviolet audio. And as always always a big hearty shout out to my guys from ABC News, Ryan Kessler and Josh Cohen. We'll see you all on Wednesday. We have a fascinating episode on tap. It's on burnout and we've got a repeat guest. Her name is Leah Weiss. See you then. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey

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