Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 353: Chris Bosh: Making Your Inner Voice Your Ally

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

One of the more surprising lessons I’ve learned as an ambitious person is that perhaps the best recipe for success is... keeping your ego in check. For a long time, I subconsciously believed that you needed to be unremittingly selfish to “make it.” But after life delivered me repeated beat-downs, I finally got the message: sometimes what’s best for me is to focus on greater good -- on the team. It’s enlightened self-interest. (For the record, I am not perfect at this.) My guest today has also learned this lesson the hard way.  Chris Bosh is an 11-time NBA All-Star, an Olympic gold medalist, and he was just recently inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame. He says his proudest moments as a player came from defeating his own ego, and you’ll hear him explain how he learned to do this. You’ll also hear him talk about something that anyone who’s ever been born needs to learn how to do (given that we live in a universe where impermanence is a nonnegotiable fact): letting go. In 2016, Chris nearly died from a blood clotting illness that sidelined him. He spent the next couple of years trying to make his way back to the NBA before retiring in 2019. He’s just written a new book, in which he tells his story and compiles some hard-won wisdom. It’s called Letters to a Young Athlete. But you don’t have to be an athlete to benefit; it’s really for anyone who’s interested in excellence.  In this conversation, Chris and I talk about the difficult process of letting go of something you love; the in’s and out’s of his journey with his own ego, both during and after his playing career; how to set aside the inner chatter in your mind in order to be in the present moment; and how to play every game–whatever that might mean to you–like it’s your last. Before we dive in, I also want to let you know about a special series of episodes we’ll be launching next week here on the podcast. It’s called “Taming Anxiety.” It will feature interviews with top anxiety researchers and a dynamite meditation teacher. And, as is our wont here in TPH-land, we’ll be launching a free companion meditation challenge on the Ten Percent Happier app to help you put everything you learn in the podcast series into practice in your daily life -- to integrate it into your neurons, as I like to say.  Get ready to join the free challenge on June 21 by downloading the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/install Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/chris-bosh-353 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, one of the most surprising lessons I've learned as an ambitious person is that perhaps the best recipe for success is keeping your ego in check. For a long time, I believed probably so consciously that you needed to be pretty selfish,

maybe even unremittingly selfish, to make it. But after life delivered me repeated beatdowns, I finally got the message that sometimes what's best for me is to focus on the greater good on the team. You might call that enlightened self-interest. For the record, I am not perfect at this. My selfish tendencies can still creep back into the picture. My guest today has also learned a similar lesson the hard way. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not a sports fan, so I had no idea who this dude was.

But Chris Bosch, I now know, is a genuinely big deal. He's an 11 time NBA All-Star and Olympic gold medalist. And he was just recently, right after this interview, in fact, inducted into the basketball hall of fame. He says his proudest moments as a player came from defeating his own ego. And you're going to hear him talk about how he learned to do this and how you can too. You're also going to hear him talk about something that anybody who's ever been born needs to learn how to do given that we live in a universe where impermanence is a non-negotiable fact.

Let him go. Back in 2016, Chris nearly died from a blood clotting illness that sidelined him. He then spent the next couple of years trying to make his way back into the NBA before he finally retired in 2019. He's just written a new book in which he tells his story and compiles some of his hard one wisdom. It's called letters to a young athlete, but you do not have to be an athlete to benefit.

This is really for anybody who's interested in excellence. In this conversation, Chris and I talk about the difficult process of letting go of something you love, the ins and outs of his own journey with his own ego, both during and after his playing career. How to set aside your inner chatter in order to be present and perform at your best and how to play every game, whatever that might mean to you, like it's your last. Before we dive in though, a big announcement, a genuinely big announcement. Well, Chris Bosch may be more than a foot taller than me and well, he may have two more NBA championship rings

than I happen to have. One thing we do have in common is that we have both struggled with anxiety and I know that we are not alone in this. Anxiety has spiked during the pandemic and now that we are here in the US at least starting to Reestablish some semblance of normalcy. There are all sorts of reentry fears that people are facing including social anxiety Which is why I wanted to let you know about a special series of episodes

We're going to be launching next week right here on the podcast. We're calling the series taming anxiety It's going to feature interviews with top anxiety researchers and one dynamite meditation teacher is going to talk a lot about how to use meditation to work with your anxiety. To kick things off on Monday, we're going to be dropping a very raw, very open conversation with the singer, songwriter, actor, and producer, Sarah Barellis,

who has struggled with anxiety for much of her life. And as is our want here in TPH land, we're gonna be launching a free companion meditation challenge in the 10% happier app to help you put everything you learned in the podcast series into practice in your daily life to integrate it into your neurons, as I like to say. The taming anxiety challenge is a brand new 10-day meditation challenge and we've really designed it to be easy and accessible.

Here's how it works. It's very simple. Just open up the app, join the challenge, and then the experts come to you. Every day in the challenge, you'll get a quick video featuring yours truly in conversation with Harvard psychologist and anxiety expert Dr. Luana Marquez, and renowned meditation teacher, Leslie Booker. They're going to teach you how and why anxiety shows up in your mind, what you may be doing to feed it unconsciously, and what tools you can use to deal with an anxious mind.

And then after every video, you'll get a short guided meditation that will allow you to practice what you've just learned. So get ready to join the free challenge on June 21st by downloading the 10% happier app today, wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% dot com. That's 10% all one word spelled out dot com. We'll put a link in the show notes, of course. All right, let's dive in that with Chris Bosch. Chris Bosch, thanks for coming on the show. Man, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I am reasonably confident you're the tallest person

who's ever been on the show. For sure, that usually happens everywhere that I go. I'm the tallest person that either someone has ever seen or that has been there, so it's quite common for me. How tall are you? Technically like 611 somewhere there, 610 and a half, 611. So yeah. Oh, I'm going to try to suppress my resentment for the rest of the Well, it's a pleasure to meet you and I really appreciate you coming on. If it's okay with you, I'd love to hear.

I'll admit upfront, I really am not much of a sports follower or fan and my colleagues at ABC News make fun of me about this all the time. So I'm just going to own that upfront. And for those listeners who don't follow sports closely, maybe you could tell the story of the health problems that really ended an incredible career. Can you tell us about how you learned about that and the story of how that all went down? Well, man, it's a crazy story.

I mean, pretty much, you know how you can kind of get caught up in trying to do your job, trying to do as best as you can. I was pretty much in the part of my career where I'm reinventing myself and I'm eager to prove that I'm still one of the best. You know, so I was working tirelessly. I'm pretty sure, you know, people have heard of LeBron James, even if you don't follow sports, he had just left our team. And so, you know, I was trying to continue to be great. And during this time, I started experiencing chest pains in my ribs, in my back, then came shortness of breath, and then eventually the pain became so debilitating. I had to go to the hospital

and in the hospital, they informed me that I had a pulmonary embolism and the next 24 hours were going to be dire. And so at this same time, I'm just coming from the all-star game and we're getting ready to hopefully compete for a playoff spot. And, you know, during this time, that's when I, you know, I'm pretty much in the emergency room and they're telling me that, you know, the next 24 hours are going to be crucial. We need to follow these certain procedures,

because you have a pulmonary embolism. I have to learn what that means on the fly. It just kind of went from there. And after that, I had to end up getting surgery, which that was pretty tough. I had two of my lungs for about a week. And I had to recover from that. I did, came back the next year,

was able to come back to my form, was all star again, and then that's when, you know, I was just, you know, something routine. I felt soaring this in my calf was getting a little paranoid. Did the right thing went to the doctors and got a scan. And that's when they told me I had a blood clot in my calf. And that was pretty much the last day that I played basketball. If memory serves, it wasn't a simple process of letting go. It's not like you had that meeting with a doctor and you just gave up. You tried to get back onto the team.

It took a couple of years for you to process this if I'm right. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It took a couple of years. I felt healthy. I felt great. I felt in the prime of my career. Like I told you, I'm trying to get back to that mountain top

and prove that I belong there. And I was doing that. I'm well on my way to having a chance to doing even more. It just happened. And so, you know, you go from that to trying to help your team win and the games and the season is going on without you. And it was really tough. And even after that, being removed from basketball, I kind of had to fight for my freedom.

And it was a debate of medical retirement. And I was not an option that I wanted to pursue. So that took more months. And then eventually, know, eventually, the win ran out of my cell. It did take a couple of years to process. I tried. And, you know, it just did not work out. And I eventually had to come to terms with that. But yeah, it was a long challenging process to get to that point. Let me see if I can articulate some of your psychology back to you and you can just tell me if I'm in the zone. You, I think 11 straight years making the all-star team.

Yes. And in the back of your mind is, okay, I'm a guy who played with LeBron on the heat and then he went off and joined the Lakers, I believe. He wants a Cleveland. Oh, he had to Cleveland then the Lakers. Yes. Sorry, so thank you. I'm showing my In your mind you're thinking okay, I played with this guy

He's out there. He's left this team. I want to prove that I am still great. This team is still great I've made the all-star team all these years in a row. I want to make the Hall of Fame I want to cement my legacy and all of a sudden, you're getting these blood clots that are threatened in your life, but you wanna keep playing. Absolutely. So am I right in the zone here in terms of what was going on in your head? Oh yeah, you're right there.

You're right there, because I mean, all I had ever done was basketball. You know, a lot of people always ask me, what else would you do if you weren't playing? To be honest, there was nothing else other than basketball. Sure, I had hobbies, I had friends, I had other things that I did, but to get to where I was, there isn't much else. You know, you sacrifice quite a bit in the pursuit of greatness, you know, and even as a child or as a teenager, you know, when

my friends were going to parties, I'm probably going to the gym or staying and get rest. That's not to say I didn't have fun or didn't do anything, but most of the time, this is where I am. I'm thinking about basketball. I'm practicing basketball. Everything I'm consuming is the game. So it was a tough question a tough question to answer, you know, eventually when you get to that point, like, what else am I going to do? I haven't done anything else. That's an existential crisis. Yeah. You know, looking back on it, I guess you can say that, but, you know, it was kind of strange, you know, I'm 37 years old right now. I still saw myself playing the game and I've been retired for five years now.

You know, I haven't played the game in five years. And you know, it's interesting watching the guys and girls too on top of their game now. And they'll say, wow, 33 years old, like Steph Curry's 33 years old, Kevin Durant's 32. And I'm like, wow, this is when everything pretty much came to an end as far as playing the game was concerned for me. So yeah, it was an existential crisis. But you know, I exercise that a lot through trying to get back in, you know, and trying to push the issue of getting back into the league and I guess finding some source of information that would help me. But once you get into the medical world and the insurance world and the lawyer world,

mixed in with business, it became too much. So the teams didn't want you playing because they didn't want to be responsible for something horrible happening to health wise as a consequence of your playing? Correct. I mean, you know, the paradox became, well, why are you getting blood clots? It turns out I did the test

and there weren't markers that were hereditary. So that even made it more confusing. And, you know, once two blood clots are discovered, they're the medicine, the therapy is pretty much, you know, daily for the rest of your life. And so that became a whole other thing that I had to deal with and in trying to debate that, which when you're dealing with medicine, that's probably not gonna happen. And, you know, due to the fact that I was going to be taking blood thinners,

you could not play, you know, contact sport on blood thinners. It just can't happen. So that was a thing, and I tried. We even tried different techniques and doing daily pricks to where it would be like Intermittent medicine or something like that. I Remember doing it one morning before workout just to do the tests and just to collect the data and this particular shot You know you get them in your stomach this particular one hurts so bad

Just this morning it hurts so bad. It's like 5.30 in the morning. And those were one of the things that kept hitting me, saying, man, do I really wanna do this? You know, do I wanna play the game like this? Because that hurt. And I'm not even guarantee that it's even gonna work. It was just pretty much impossible obstacles to overcome at every turn that we went through.

I gave it the whole college try, but I think that was a cathartic for me. I feel that that helped me get it out and I eventually came to the point where I said, I'm not going to play, you know, it's okay. I'm okay where I'm at. We're going to figure it out. and now I'm motivated to try and find what's out there. You gave it more than the college try. You gave it to PhD try, but just in your defense. I want to read you back to you here. This is from your new book. I thought the hardest thing I'd ever do was win an NBA championship.

It turns out that winning a championship was much easier than coming to terms with the fact that I would never play basketball again. It was like part of me died. It was like a piece of my life was cut out of me stolen, taken before its time. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, I've even never had those words so many times when somebody reads them back to you.

It sounds man. It's, you know, it's the truth. It was unfair, especially when things happen when you feel that are unfair, which usually comes with loss, you have to deal with those things. And like I told you, that's all I had ever done with the game and basketball. It had given me everything. It gave me a reason to get up in the morning. It gave me friends, camaraderie, certain acumen and opportunities in business, you know, the ability to provide for my family, travel the world, scholarship and education. It gave me everything. And I was in a quest to be the best in the world. It's like you're in your own tunnel and you have that vision and you just have that goal and you go for it. And yeah, man, I mean, writing those words were a real challenge

in getting that out because even listening back to it is challenging to hear because, you know, it's being confronted with the fact of that loss. And it never gets easier to get over right. It's still those emotions will still be there, but you eventually have to use them for good. And now in everything that I do, I feel that you must enjoy it. You have to, even on the bad days, because it might be the last one.

I mean, my last game was just a regular game. You know, and then I have to process certain emotions if I watch someone be allowed the opportunity to have that last lap. You know, as an athlete, that's kind of what you aspire for and what you want in a career. But then I had to realize that 99% of the time that does not happen. That's not, you know, know the real world I was having a dinner with my friend one time and I was just like man, it's not fair It's telling how fair was and I said it didn't end the way it was supposed to he said dude It never ends the way it's supposed to And you know, it just kind of you have these certain realizations as you go along, but I

Ended up coming to appreciate what I was able to do in that span of time. That's what's most important to look back and appreciate it. Well, hey, if that was it, I gave it a hell of a run, and I left no stone unturned, and I can feel confident and feel good about that. In terms of playing every game, like it's's your last you have a quote in the book from the movie Sandlot and the quote is at some point in your childhood you and your friends went outside to play together for the last time and nobody knew it. That quote is so powerful for me because I mean I grew up on that movie practically. And I mean, that was my truth.

That's a part of my truth in my career. Looting back to that game, it was a regular game against the Spurs, didn't really do too well. Other things were on my mind. And so, yeah, I went out there, I played the game, I just spent that evening trying to get better, trying to push my teammates to get better, trying to move a step closer to accomplishing our goals. But most importantly, going out there and enjoying what I do. And that was the last time that I played.

There were no, you know, t-shirts made. There was no, you know, my good friend, DeWang Wade. he had this awesome thing called the last dance and he was his final season. And I mean, they did it up and he was able to just really, really take everything in and enjoy it for the last time. You know, it was nothing like that. And the lesson that I took from that was pretty much to, like I told you, to enjoy the process. Enjoy doing the work that you put in, enjoy if you're on a team. Hopefully, you're in a position to where you're in a good environment.

You know, appreciate that. Appreciate those things that you have and the opportunity that you have because you might not always have it. So I've always taken that to heart. I've found that to be such a hard thing to do. Having come up in a very competitive career, maybe not as competitive as the NBA, but television news, which is what I spent most of my life doing

and outside of being a podcaster. And I was thinking like, what are we gonna call this episode? And one title that came to my mind was, you know, how to pursue excellence without losing your mind. You know, it's it's I Spent so much time miserable while pursuing this career that I love, you know, and Not getting jobs. I wanted I would focus on that instead of like the amazing parts of the jobs I did have and So it's it's just a very hard thing in my experience to go for it with all you've got for a career you really love without letting it drive you nuts.

Look, the pain is real, right? If you go for something and you're not successful, that's not to say that you're not going to feel those things. I felt those things with disappointment. I mean, year after year, and in sports, you lose in front of everybody. And it's just like, oh, man, we were supposed to win and we let the whole city down. And you can get to a point where you can feel like you're stuck and feel like you're not successful, even though you have sure of security financially at the time. And, you know, it just, it can become a challenge. And yeah, the pain is, is real. And it is miserable. I think we all kind of experienced those things that led down like you were saying, you don't

get that job. You wanted and you put everything into it. That makes it hurt. One of the things I tried to embody, I had a veteran buddy, and I speak about this in the book as well, you know, about not getting too high and not getting too low. That was a major, major, important thing that really helped me through my career, because you feel your body is going to tell

you, I want to be really, really upset right now, but you still have to perform. Or you still have to put your mind on the next thing. You just miserably lost in front of everybody. Like the TV caught me crying in front of everybody. Millions of people saw it, you know? And you eventually have to bounce back from that. The thing that taught me was use the pain as fuel because what else are you gonna do? You've gotta continue to go for it. You can't let that break you.

You know, you have to keep pursuing your goal. So, and even with success, because you know, a lot of people think, well, you know, hey, I'm successful, you don't have to do anything. That makes it harder. It's harder to repeat. It's harder to do it again. It's harder to meet the expectations that everybody has of you. And you know, you just have to kind of find that balance of where you're not letting to kind of find that balance of where you're not letting everything just put you on the mountain top or beat you down to the valley.

There was something you said in the midst of the last answer you gave that reminded me of what I was coming up at ABC News and I was doing a lot of fill in anchoring at Good Morning America. The main host at the time was a guy named Charlie Gibson. And he was the host of Good Morning America, went on to be the anchor of World News tonight. And I was filling in for him a lot, and this was in the early 2000s. And I remember him telling me that you're going to make mistakes while you're on the air. You're just going to mess things up.

You're going to have a bad segment or you're going to read something off the teleprompter and just mess things up. You're gonna have a bad segment or you're gonna read something off the teleprompter and just mess it up. And the trick is, can you not let that screw up everything you do afterwards? Can you not dwell on that mistake? Right, right, that snowball effect. Yeah, I think that's always the challenge. You know, I apply everything that I learned from playing basketball and being part of the team and a leader and a follower and all those things to my you know every day life and

It was a lot about that idea not letting things tumble. If there's a problem in the locker room or If we feel that we're not performing up to our standards, let's talk about it right now. So, you know, the team has to come closer together. Usually you tend to want to separate in tough times. In my pursuit, personally, trying to be a great player, one of the things I would tell myself, if I had a bad game, I'd just be like, well, you know, you have a stinker. It's a chalk it up.

You know, we have 82 games. It would be kind of, you know, egotistical stinker. It's a chalk it up. You know, we have 82 games. It would be kind of, you know, egotistical to think I'm going to have 82 excellent games. You know, it's just not realistic. It's not going to happen. I can't control that. But one thing I can't control is how I come back the next game. Or if you make a mistake in a game, not to dwell on it or get down too much next play next play. That was our philosophy, pursuing a championship, no matter what happens, you have to move on to the next play, because you need that full focus and concentration in being competitive against another team

or another opponent that's very, you know, they're great too, and they wanted to. So, you know, you have to get to a point where you're just, no matter what happens, you're staying in the moment, you're going from moment to moment, and you're making sure you're executing at that moment. And later, you can look back and kind of look at the picture. But if you stay in those moments, and whether they're good or bad,

move on to the next moment, you know, good or bad I think you'll like the collection of things when you look back on it But you know to your point, I mean Not letting it affect the next segment or if you mess up with that first sentence on the teleprompter not letting that affect the rest of the stories and how you Make your delivery. But doing it live is another thing, right? So it's the elite of the elite getting to that point where you can move on to the next

thing so quickly or be in the moment that even when you make mistakes, you can still rebound and still get yourself back on track. It sounds like you had to be quite deliberate about the self talk that you did. You know, if you notice the negative dialogue around man, you suck tonight. You had to be pretty deliberate in your counter programming against that, both on the court and off. One of the main lessons I learned that from, you know, when we're a kid in the driveway, right? You're counting down and you're hitting the game when it's shot in a

championship. That's every player has that game-winning moment. Even if you don't play the game, okay. I get to the point in my career where I'm in a game seven. Did I have a bad game? No, I didn't score any points. I was known as a score at one point in time in my career. That's what I did. You falling into the team, you know, falling into a role that was better for the team, attempting to conquer my ego and say,

okay, I'm gonna play this role, even though I know I could be used here. I'm more effective for the team here. And then in the midst of all those things, in the moment of truth, I'm in foul trouble. And I'm not playing quite as offensively, quite as well as I am. And you know, it's happening right now at this moment. And I just had to kind of, you know, get over it in lifetime. I remember a story that my coach said, Mitchell, he was mad at me one time because I left scoring effect my mood.

You know, there's two parts to the game. There's offense and there's defense. If I was like, you know, not having an offensive night, I would just be a bum on defense. And he was like, you know, not having an offensive night, I would just be a bum on defense. And he called me out for that. And he pushed me to be better. So in that moment, you know, I had to remember my training, don't freak out. This is what you have to do. And just go through this process. but more important than anything, the mood has to stay here, the effort has to stay here, the focus and the concentration has to be

at max right now. And how can I help the team? That's how everything kind of transpired in that moment and I, you know, figured some things out. And I just got out the way of the guys who needed to score. At alone can help out sometimes you know. It sounds like the ego is a huge theme in your book. You actually tell some stories about how the ego nearly derailed you a few times and maybe I'll nudge you to tell them here that one of them

is while playing with the US national team in 2006 and Greece. I definitely did not have the right attitude to bring to the team to help it be successful. You know, I'm a young dude getting my numbers on my professional squad. This is playing for your country. The game is different. The minutes are different. And I was letting that affect me. You know, I was letting the lack of, I guess, what I felt was playing time at the time

affect what I brought to the game, or I'm just worried about, man, put me in as opposed to cheering the guys that are playing because we're all full of great players, right? And it's not to say that I was the reason or anything like that, but I damn sure wasn't a solution. And kind of looking back on that, I mean, just kind of giving someone the opportunity to have that experience about me as a player or me as a teammate. That's like I was always kind of slightly embarrassed about that. Whether guys realized it or not, you know, I just did not have the right attitude that it took to help that team be successful at the time.

Like I said, not to say it was the reason we lost or anything, but we didn't win. And when your team USA losing in basketball, that's embarrassing like USA lost in basketball? To who? To Greece? You know? That's like, you know, it's very embarrassing. So, you know, learning those early lessons

and kind of being appreciative for it, but, you know, fast forward, that was the experience in 2006. You know, in 2008, I was thinking more so, okay, what can I do this time to be successful? What can I do to help this team win? Because I want to play that I'm going to be honest with myself. I want to play where in this team can I fit in to where I can play.

And if I don't, we still need to win the gold medal. We need to be successful this summer. So what can I do to aid that? And, you know, that's what I brought to the table. That was a difference. And then in 2013, you write about the fact in the finals against the Spurs in Game 7, you didn't score a single point,

but you felt really proud of how you played. I don't think a lot of people would be able to handle that real time to process that real time. To process that a natural score like I was telling you earlier, that's all I ever wanted to do. I grew up watching Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, man. And even the big tall guys like me that I aspired to be, they could put the ball in the basket as well.

So you know, in that time, in that moment, I did not let me not scorn in the biggest game in my life, affect me. If you watch any game, if you see a performer and they don't score a point, you see those shoulders start slouching a little bit, that head starts dropping, they're not going as fast as usual or trying as hard. They're flush red and they're just upset. I was so proud for

that because I remembered that story that my coach taught me and, you know, I was playing up against the great Tim Duncan. You know, I needed all that force and focus to guard him on defense because, you know, I had to bounce back from that too. He had a very successful game against me, the game before, embarrassing, like I've told you before, you feel that thing of where I'm blowing it on live TV right now, had that moment and had to bounce back from that. But in that moment, I told my teammates

to play their man a little closer and allow me to guard him one-on-one. I felt my training and my technique was good enough to accept that challenge. And so in that moment, I was able to help the team with my defense and my rebounding. And if you would have told me that when I was a younger player of how I would have had to transform to win championships, I don't think I would have believed you. I would have been like, no, I'm the dude. I had the game when it shot. What do you mean?

No, no, no, no, no, no, I did this. I'm the hero. I'm the dude with the trophy. And, you know, it kind of comes full circle, but you always kind of have to be in the moment and focused on that goal and having that early ego and being able to come to another place was to me reflecting back on it.

It was phenomenal. I mean, you write that my, just as a quote, I keep quoting you back. My proudest moments as a player are the ones where I defeated my ego. And I guess just for listeners who are interested in maybe applying some of this wisdom in their own lives, like what do you think are the key steps to defeating the ego so that you can actually perform at your best? I think recognizing it right away is that that thing you don't like that makes you know you don't like it and it happens a lot that that's kind of usually the ego talking to

you because at the end of the day, what does it really mean? So for example, if there's a person that feels like they should be playing on a certain particular team and they're not getting any playing time, like the coach doesn't put them in the game. Usually it would be easy for that person to soak and complain and then it becomes problematic. Or if a person on that job feels like they're not getting to do the presentation or getting that opportunity to shine, but it's important for the team for them to do their job. You know, that person sometimes can complain and soak or get someone in on a joke like,

right, don't they mess it up every time? You know, that's like the easy stuff. So those things that really hit you, we all know what those things are, even if we don't tell anybody, that's usually kind of the ego talking to you because at the end of the day, when the team is successful, everybody's successful.

That's a known fact. You know, if everybody is feeling good and happy, the communication is good, and there is communication, not to say that, you know, there won't be debates. You know, if there's a flow there, you know, I just feel that it can be better, even in challenging times.

That thing that can kind of, you know, get in your mind and just say, Oh, man, you should be here. You should have that promotion, not him or her or who do they think they are talking to me like that? It's just kind of, you can kind of get into this rut of thinking to where you're somebody. You don't even know. It's just not even about the goal anymore It's about something else that's usually the ego talking to you and playing team sports You always consistently have to conquer that and in my case, I was like the man

I was the dude and I was in Toronto. I was dude front of the newspaper. They interview me after every game Nothing wrong with that. I always wanted to be a team guy, but going from that to more so, the third option, so to speak, on a great team, you know, it was our challenging to come to that point of putting all into the team and I saw the effects. I saw it happen. I saw it live. I saw how it could derail a potential opportunity that you won't get back. And I've also seen how it could help. So I've always kind of really looked back

at those moments of saying, wow, it just could have so easily just kind of went in another direction because of how I felt at a certain time and it just all went to hell after that. You want to look back at those times and say, oh yeah, I did, you know, hopefully did the right thing and live with the results. Much more of my conversation with Chris Bosch

right after this. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just gonna end up on page six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellesai. And I'm Sydney Battle and we're the host of Wundery's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud.

From the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Brittany movement dedicated to fring her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other.

And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow disenthal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. One of the most helpful things I think you say in the book, and this is me quoting Chris Bosch back to Chris Bosch again, here we go. You say the good news about the ego is it's never too late to fix it and you if you can take it easy on yourself in a way and have a sense of humor enough to see like the crazy inner dialogue that's going on for you then actually you can settle down and make a smarter decision. Yeah, I have a buddy he's from New Zealand, he would always tell me,

take it easy on yourself, man. You know, but I always took that to heart. We do have to take it easy on ourselves. It's one day and hopefully one drop and one's hopefully a big bucket of water. Sometimes in your pursuit, you can get that self doubt. And that's okay, that's healthy. That should let you know that you're actually going

for something. Sometimes a lot of people, you know, that it's uncomfortable when they feel that, why is this thought in my head? Well, that's just normal, it's normal. Everybody gets that. It has nothing to do, it's just a thought. And that's it.

And then, you know, sometimes you just have to kind of take some moments and be aware of those things, but be aware that that inner dialogue is going to be there. And sometimes it's going to tell you you can't do it. And that's okay, but your actions have to continue going forward despite the voice, right? You have to continue to, if you want something bad enough, or if you want happiness, or whatever it is, you know, you have to put daily work into it. So, whether you're feeling good, bad, or indifferent,

if you're having whatever thoughts you're having, the quest has to kind of continue to move forward, or you'll get stuck in that place and you always want to grow. You don't want to be stuck in one place thinking about the same thing over and over and over is just looping in the back of your mind because you keep coming back to it. Well, let me just go back to the ego for a second because you really did make, and I know this is coming from me who I know nothing about sports, but it sounds to me like you really made a pretty remarkable personal transition from going from the as you say the dude on the Raptors in Toronto to going to Miami

Whereas you you described yourself as the third option behind LeBron and Dwayne Wade and really were you started to focus a little bit less on scoring and more on being a defensive player. And yes, that is a kind of having a healthier relationship to the ego, but it also strikes me as a smarter version of ego. There's an expression enlightened self-interest. You were still doing what was in your self-interest. Absolutely, absolutely. My word was confidence. You know, instead of ego, I'm not, you know,

I don't call it cockiness as confidence. It's not ego as confidence. We all have those things we want to go after, right? My goal at that time was to win an NBA championship. From the moment that I could remember when I was six years old, the first time I saw Michael Jordan hold in that trophy, I'm like, oh yeah, I wanna do that. You know, it was nothing else. And I had a chance to do that. You don't have to feel bad for going after, you know,

your goal, my thing was, I love what I do. I wrote about that too, finding your why. That's why, you know, that part is so important because you have to love what I do. I wrote about that too finding your why. That's why that part is so important because you have to love what you're doing. It has to bring forth positivity. You have to flourish in it. Other people have to flourish. You have to help people.

Others have to help you. It has to be this symbiotic relationship if we're lucky, right? And I mean, in that, I found opportunities to go after things. So I went fully and whole heartedly after them. And I was lucky to find that. And, you know, that's one of the things, right? We have to find that thing that embodies that. And that can be a challenge. But it's something that I believe that could tremendously, you know, really help you out if you just really embrace it. I really like a sort of a flexible ego, the ego or confidence or whatever.

There's a healthy version of the ego as you describe it as confidence and having the flexibility to say, okay, well, what's my goal? I want to be great. I don't want to play. So how am I going to get minutes on the court? Well, it looks like being a little bit more of a defensive player instead of the story I told myself in my teens and 20s about being the dude is going to be the way I'm going to get on to the court. So let me do that. And one of the challenges with that was handling the criticism that came with it. I was like the easy target for jokes and stuff throughout the media. So like, you have to stay even because you will be provoked to step out of character

to prove nothing. That's the ego, that's the ego part. The one of like, let me tell you something that part that has approved to everyone how great you are. In that, in just me falling into my role and doing what I was supposed to do at that time. I was able to achieve greatness. The funny part was that like I said before, LeBron, he left and I was still trying to prove I was great. Not too long after that, the team is asking me to do more now. Now I'm getting plays drawn up for me. And I'm like, hey, coach, I don't want any plays drawn up for me.

I just want to go out there and play. I know what's going to happen for this team to be successful. I know this or for me to be successful and help this team. Everybody in the gym can't know I'm getting the ball. Those are my younger years. I met a different point in my career. So that was the funny part.

I went from, you know, the young and new and on fire and then, you know, veteran savvy and playing my role to help a great team, right back to having to do more and being more of a face along with Dewey. That was kind of a trip too. And I never, that was the era of my career that was left unfinished. But I still thought it was a trip too and I never that was the era of my career that was left unfinished But I still thought it was a trip to be right back in that part and have those feelings of being like

Yeah, let's move the ball Hey, how about everybody touched the ball today, you know what I mean before I touch it, you know because I just know it's a better flow to the game It'll help this young guy out who's know it's a better flow to the game. It'll help this young guy out who's wants to be involved, you know, and it'll help me out because I can't do what I could do. I don't have any ego about it. So it's always, you know, finding what that voice is to you, being able to recognize it and just suppress it. It's like, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and work toward the goal, man. One other area of advice that I wanted to get to with you,

and it kind of just picks up on what you just said, is there's an interesting kind of balance you're striking in the book, because on the one hand, you tell people, like learn to distrust your limits or what you think are your limits. That you can push yourself past what you think you can do. And you say, as your New Zealand friend had told you,

you do have to kind of take it easy on yourself too. So can you talk about walking that line? My analogy to that was always kind of the pain I felt playing the game. So anytime we were in a do or die situation, it was always the hardest game of your life. Every day in the playoffs and in pursuit of a championship, you have to push yourself, past your limits, and even more after that every single time. And I tried to do that in my training,

but nothing can simulate the actual real life event when it happens. And that was a muscle that we had to exercise, you know, that mental strength of getting to the point where it's like, okay, I have the most fatigue that I've ever been in my life, but I'm still going to run full speed without even thinking to this part. And I'm ready for that moment because it's going to happen like that. I'm not even going to think about it. I'm not going to drop my shoulder. I'm going to go.

I'm going to steal my mind to where I react instantly because you know, you're going to tap that part. We would say like, yeah, you know, you scrape the that part we we would say like yeah you know you scrape the bottom of your soul and then you always have to get more even after you scrape the bottom of your soul that was kind of like the saying you know and I worked myself up to that point that no matter what you know I'm going to continue to try and find more because I know I have more it's just I have to get used to that place

of feeling what I need to feel physically to be able to push past that. I have to know your limit to be able to push past it. One of the things that helped me, and I'm not sure if you're a runner, but running, if you ever try running like a mile, you get very familiar with that inner voice. And my trainer back in the day, Ken Roberson, we were running miles just all the time.

And we just be running on the track. And as soon as you start running that little voice just starts talking to you and just be like, you know, just stop. You don't have any more. I mean, come on. Don't you fill your calves? You know. You don't have anymore. I mean, come on. Don't you fill your calves, you know? And next thing you know, you finish it.

Or that day when you felt like crap getting out of bed and that voice was just really in here, you showed up and you ran your best time. That wouldn't have been possible if you would have stayed in soaking and listening to whatever dialogue was negative in your mind, you know. And that constant exercise always helped me and my teammates. So with that said, I mean, if we're trying to go after something, it's going to be difficult,

it's not going to be easy. You're going to be challenged. And in those challenges, you're going to be tired. You might not be 100%. You might not be in a perky mood or feeling the best on top of the world that day. You might be feeling at that moment of truth, you might be feeling a low low or a lot low. It's just, you know, being able to bounce back from those things like we were saying earlier and and just believe in the work that you've put in.

and just believe in the work that you've put in. And, you know, if you've put in work exercising those moments mentally, visually, physically, you have to have trust in that work you've put in when those moments come. Did you ever come up with a rule of thumb about when to ignore the voice that's telling you, actually you've pushed your body to the limit or you've pushed your body to the limit or you've pushed

your mind to the limit and went to actually listen and give your body and brain or mind a rest. Oh yeah, rest is definitely a part of it. That's why I say training. It has to be a part of training and you know, part of training is recovery. You know, you do have to recover. There is a point to where you and you have to find that balance and that's like the part that only we can only determine for

ourselves. You know, okay, this is too much. I'm injured. I cannot go. I will mess up my well being if I continue or if it's like, dude, come on. You can go a little more. Yeah, there's always that finding that balance and you definitely want to find that balance for yourself because you don't want to push yourself too hard. But with that said, there is a fine working balance to finding those moments to be able to say, yeah, I can't go anymore, but I'm gonna go,

or like, no, I can't go anymore, it hurts. My ankle, my knee, I'm having sharp pain, like sharp pain was always my indicator. Like, okay, yeah, no, we've got to, we've got to stop it, or hey, we've been going through these days and real pretty hard, let's, let's rejuvenate, let's refresh our cell, let's do some yoga today or something, let's do something active, but's refresh ourselves, let's do some yoga today or something.

Let's do something active, but not too active. Let's get some times for ourselves and our minds kind of refreshing and allow us to continue to have the output that we need. I'm gonna get a little cute and make a sports analogy here, which I'm doing self-awareness. As we enter into the fourth quarter of this interview, I wanted to loop back to your health problems that force you out of the game and do one last quote from your book.

You write, it took me a while, a lot of thinking, a lot of talking, and even writing this book, to come around to the idea that actually maybe the way I went out was perfect. What do you mean by that, perfect? Perfect means to me there is no perfect. You know, the perfect imperfections. One of my, I guess you could call them people that I look up to or whatever that I'm very fascinated with was Leonardo da Vinci. And, you know, he has all these known masterpieces across the world.

Fun fact, most of his pieces were unfinished. His personal collection or, you know, most of the things that he did, he left unfinished, whether they were sketches, ideas, inventions, you know, he was always on to the next thing, making something else, refining, correcting. And in my reflections, I kind of thought about that in my own career, like, man, maybe it is perfect because it was just a night in the NBA, you know what I mean? Regular night, you know, something that I've always dreamed to aspire.

I was at one point in my life where I couldn't even get a peak. You know, I want to was a peak in real life. You know, just to see these tremendous players doing their thing. And now I'm getting the living real time. And you know, there's no pressure to perform in any kind of way. It's just, you know, like like we said nobody knew it, you know, we were just Doing what we do it was natural and I've come to appreciate that and that's kind of what I think about mostly because You know, it's always fun to think well what if or what if but you know in this case It is know what if it's just kind of you know, we leave it where it stands. And I still got to accomplish everything that I want.

I mean, it couldn't have gone any better. It was an amazing career. That's just inarguable. What are you up to now? Man, writing, doing music, taking care of my kids, you know, being a husband, we've, you know, as this new world continues to kind of, we're in the shift. You know, we have all our kids here. I've got five kids. You know, the virtual learning continues. We're like planning gardens and, you know, doing flowers and studying botany and doing art, I'm doing music and really just really, really I found a passion

for writing and making music and stuff like that and just watching my kids flourish. That has been such an enjoying thing to watch. I mean, it's trippy just to watch them like every day. Just grow. This is exciting because I really do feel that I haven't felt these feelings since playing the game, you know, with having a book coming out, being able to talk to you and

be on this podcast and, you know, just do cool stuff. So it's exciting. I feel, you know, rejuvenated. I feel like I've been off in the mountains and came back with a book. So I'm excited. I have found that usually it is great suffering in my life that can lead to a decent book. How did you come up with the title letters to a young athlete? You know, letters to a young poet and letters to a young jazz musician were a part of the lineage of books that I've read. I mean, I've read a lot of books. That was always the past time of mine. I mean, before games on

the bus, on the plane, hundreds. I can't even count them. You know, hundreds and hundreds of books throughout my career. One of my favorites was, I'm not practicing stoicism, but I've taken a lot from stoicism and kind of, you know, I've letters that that Seneca wrote just this idea of letters, kind of writing letters to my younger self just felt natural. It felt important and I felt that it could really translate to other people that people could learn from me just reflecting on things that helped me throughout my career and being and remembering those steps that I took and pretty much like reverse engineering the whole thing. And so I mean, just in the quest for, you know, looking for titles, right, it has to flow. And that one came up and we just felt like,

that was the best flow for the book. And it just feels right. It just feels right to say it. You don't have to be a young athlete to get something from this book. I feel that it translates to, you know, people trying to be great. And whatever it is they're trying to do

is filled with things that people can take for themselves and apply it to their lives. And hopefully we'll start hearing about how it helped people out because that's its intent. You know, is to help people. And I've gotten so much knowledge just through reading. And you know, this is the book that I would have wanted to read before again to help me get in the mindset or during the playoffs to get me in the mindset and into the focus to where I need to be to accomplish great things. Sounds to me like you're off to an incredible second act. So congratulations on the new book and thank you for coming on the show. Really appreciate some pleasure to meet you. Nice to meet you and I appreciate you guys reaching out.

Big thanks to Chris really enjoyed spending time with him. Before we head out, let me just remind you again about our upcoming taming anxiety series, which starts next week on the podcast and also our taming anxiety meditation challenge, which will start on Monday, June 21st, both the podcast series and the meditation challenge will teach you how to respond skillfully to anxiety, and you can download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps to get ready for the challenge. This show is made by Samuel Johns, DJ Cashmere, Kim Baikamom, Maria Wartel, and Jen Plant with audio engineering from ultraviolet audio

and as always a big shout out to my ABC News Comrade Ryan Kessler and Josh Cohan. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode with Shankar Vodontum, who's the host of Hidden Brain, an excellent podcast. And we're talking about something that's going to be very counterintuitive to anybody out there who knows anything about Buddhism, which is the upside of delusion and self-deception. It's a good one, so we'll see you on Wednesday for that. Hey, hey, prime members.

You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.