Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 359: The Hard Questions That Might Save Your Relationship | Susan Piver

Episode Date: June 23, 2021

Today we have some counterintuitive relationship advice. If you’re in a tough spot with your loved one, why would you want to have a deep chat about religion, politics, work, or your eating habits? Wouldn’t that just make everything worse? My guest today says asking these hard questions is exactly what you should do.  Susan Piver is a fan favorite in TPH-world. She has been a practicing Buddhist for more than a quarter-century. She’s a graduate of a Buddhist seminary, founder of The Open Heart Project, and a New York Times bestselling author of many books, including How Not to Be Afraid of Your Own Life. This month, she’s releasing a revised and expanded edition of her blockbuster book, The Hard Questions: 100 Essential Questions to Ask Before You Say “I Do.” This book started out as a relationship tool for recently engaged couples, but it’s taken on a much broader life. You can use it if your long-term relationship has hit a snag, if you’ve recently broken up with someone and want to understand why, or if you’re single and just want to know yourself better. The book originally came out 20 years ago, but a lot has changed since then, so Susan has gone through and done a big rewrite.  In this conversation, we talk about: why hard questions are so key to building or rebuilding the foundation for a healthy relationship; the difference between love affairs and long-term relationships (and how failing to see the difference can tank your relationship); why breakups are rarely caused by lack of love, but instead by something else; and Susan will explore, from a Buddhist perspective, what happens when the boundaries between you and another person begin to dissolve – and what to watch out for when this happens. Also, there’s (just barely!) still time to join us in our free Taming Anxiety Challenge. This ten-day meditation challenge will teach you how to understand your anxiety and give you practical tools for coping with the difficult thoughts and emotions that arise when you are anxious. And it’s also a great way to kickstart your meditation practice.  You can join the Taming Anxiety Challenge by downloading the Ten Percent Happier app: https://10percenthappier.app.link/install. You should be prompted to join the Challenge after registering your account. If you've already downloaded the app, just open it up or visit this link to join: https://10percenthappier.app.link/TamingAnxietyChallenge. Be sure to sign up by June 24! Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/susan-piver-359 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, today, some counterintuitive relationship advice. Say for example, you're in a tough spot with your loved one. Why at that moment would you want to have a deep chat about religion, politics, work, or eating habits?

Wouldn't that just make everything worse? My guest today says asking these hard questions is precisely what you need to do. Susan Piver is a fan favorite in TPH world. She's been practicing Buddhist for more than a quarter century. She's a graduate of a Buddhist seminary founder of the Open Heart Project and a New York Times bestselling author of many books, including, and I really like this title, How Not to Be Afraid of Your Own Life. This month, though, she's releasing a revised and expanded edition of her blockbuster book, The Hard Questions, 100 Essential Questions to Ask Before You Say I Do. Let me clarify that subtitle because some of you may be thinking, all right, I'm not about to say,

I do. This book started out as a relationship tool for recently engaged couples. However, it has taken on a much broader life. It's designed to be used if your long-term relationship has hit a snag or if you've recently broken up with somebody and want to understand why in your own mind or if you're single and just want to know yourself better. The book originally came out 20 years ago, but a lot has changed to say the least since then, so Susan has gone through and done a big rewrite. In this conversation, we talk about why hard questions are so key to building or rebuilding the foundation for a healthy relationship.

The difference between love affairs and long-term relationships and how failing to see the difference can tank your relationship. Why breakups are rarely caused by lack of love but instead by something else. We also talk about Susan's explorations from a Buddhist perspective of what happens when the boundaries between you and another person begin to dissolve and what to watch out for when that happens. Before we get going with Susan, I just want to make a mention that there is still a little bit of time just barely time enough for you to join our free taming anxiety challenge. It's a 10-day meditation challenge. The goal is to teach you how to understand your anxiety, give you some practical tools for coping with the difficult thoughts and emotions that arise when you're anxious. It's also a great way to kickstart your meditation practice if you're in a rut. Once you sign up, you'll get a short video every day from me in conversation with an expert

on anxiety. And then after the video, there will be a short-guided meditation for you to practice what you've just learned. You'll also get daily reminders to get you to your meditation cushion or chair or wherever you meditate. And you can invite your friends and family to join you in the challenge. And again, it's all for free. So if your particular flavor of anxiety manifests as procrastination, that's not unusual.

I do want to say though that now is the last chance to join us for the challenge and replace that habit with a new one. You can sign up by downloading the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps by June 24th. Okay, let's get going now with Susan Piver. So, Susan Piver, welcome back to the show. I'm so glad to be here. It's always great to see you, Dan. Likewise. And before we started rolling, I asked you my customary question that I asked guests, which is, you know, anything you want to talk about before we do the interview.

And you said, yeah, here's my question. Why are relationships impossible? So let me throw that question back at you. Why are relationships impossible? Yeah, I don't know, but they are. As someone now who's been married for over 20 years and has written about relationships a number of times and keeps thinking, I'm going to get it right. Once we solve this one issue, or if we can get over this very irritating thing or this

very hurtful thing, there's going to be some smooth sailing ahead. In all these years, I think what I've come to realize is for me, it's impossible not to be in this relationship. It's my life. It's not my whole life, but it's the fabric of my life is very interwoven with this relationship and it's impossible to get it right. So what happens when you find yourself in a situation that's impossible to make right and impossible to not engage with that puts you in an interesting spot.

Don't you think? Maybe just don't expect to get it right. Excellent, excellent advice. Podcast over. See ya. But easier said than done, maybe we need to approach relationships the way we approach meditation, which is you're not going to win. There is no sort of like, async the thing. Maybe we need to approach relationships the way we approach meditation, which is you're not going to win.

There is no sort of like, async the thing. It's just you muddle through. Interestingly, we could also approach meditation as we do a relationship in the sense that it's different every time. You can show up in both cases with the best intentions. I'm going to nail it this time. I know exactly what I'm doing. And it all falls apart. Or you can show up in either case grumpy, unhappy. I'm going to phone it in today. And something magical

blossoms or not. It's a life in both cases. As I understand it, the inciting insight, the insight that puts you on the path to writing this book, was something along the lines of being in love isn't enough. You can be in love with somebody, but if you don't love your life with that person, it won't work. Exactly. Being in love is enough for a love affair, but it's not enough for a relationship. The insight that I had when my then-boyfriend suggested marriage, which I was very scared to hear him put that on the table, and thinking about it and thinking about, yeah, I love him, but so what?

I love all the other people. I was in a relationship with two. I still love them, but those relationships ended. But when I thought about it, I realized they didn't end because we didn't love each other. They ended because we couldn't find a way to create a life together that we both loved. And so that made me start thinking about this particular person. I love him,

but so what? What is that going to do? Doesn't seem to mean that's a good reason to make a commitment. So I started thinking about, well, what do I know about what he thinks about our life together? Not how he feels about me, because in longer term relationships, it seems you don't really argue about feelings so much. You argue about why did you put that over there? Or I don't want to celebrate that holiday, or your family drives me crazy, or I need you to become my religion, or those are the things that really push the buttons. Division of labor, you know, who's doing what, when, et cetera, et cetera.

It's interesting. My wife and I did some couples counseling several years ago with a guy named Michael Vincent Miller and he wrote a book called Intimate Terrorism. Oh my God. He wrote this book before 9-11. So terrorism didn't have the same sort of punch that it has now. In any event, one of the arguments he made is that we in the West are in an arrested state of development

because we, thanks to Hollywood and love songs, think of love as a narrow ban, the love affair that you just described. And we have trouble coping once the fireworks subside and we need to figure out whose in-laws are we gonna see for Thanksgiving and the more mundane aspects of life. Does that sort of rhyme with what you're talking about? Yes, it does. And I love that title is crazy.

I'm definitely gonna check it out. And I don't know if it's just because of love songs in Hollywood, Certainly that plays a part in it. But as you know, because we know each other, I am a long-time Buddhist practitioner. My partner isn't, by the way. So just FYI, for what that's worth, there's a tremendous amount of emphasis put on how you work with your thoughts and your feelings and sensations and the present moment. And there's so much irritation and difficulty in long-term relationships. No one ever tells us that for some reason.

The closer you get to another person and the longer you know them, the more the line blurs between who you are and who they are. You start to inhabit a world together. You don't know if their mood is your mood. So according to this particular Buddhist view, then the way we talk to ourselves bleeds into the way we talk to other people. And the way most of us talk to ourselves is not very nice. A lot of judgment, a lot of harshness, a lot of critique. And so part of the spiritual journey, as I've studied it,

is to work with those mind states, not just for yourself, but so that when you enter the shared world that you have with others, you can tell the difference and use the voice, you know, use your inside voice, as it were. But in this way, it seems like self-compassion or reprogramming the way you talk to yourself, while it may seem self-centered or subsistic or individualistic, it can have profound effects on the way you show up in all of your relationships, including the intimate one.

It's the opposite of selfish. It's a gesture of kindness, certainly towards yourself, but also to others. So tell me about the book. You wrote this 20 years ago, before you were married, and then you went back to re-write it. What did you find as you were going through that process? Well, I wrote the book, as you say, 20 years ago, because I was like in my 30s, I had never been married.

I didn't think I would ever get married. My then-boyfriend and I were walking down St. Mark's Place, actually, in New York City, and we were just having this incredibly loving, close moment. And I looked at him and I could see, he's going to ask me to marry him. I could see him start to sink down in the middle of this very crowded place. And I slapped my hand over his mouth. Like, don't do it. Please don't do it. That's a terrifying thing.

And we just looked at each other and laughed because we both knew what the other was thinking. Anyway, we ended up revisiting the question and then I was thinking these thoughts, well, how do I know if this is going to work? Because it doesn't seem to work for most people. I don't want to be like the people I knew growing up who just made fun of each other and rolled their eyes at each other and so on. So I had this epiphany as we discussed. Oh, this is about our life together, not about how we feel. What do I know about how he views his life? How do you make this commitment? Honestly, I went to the bookstore and all the books about getting

married were about what you wear and flowers. And I like clothes and flowers and so on, but there was nothing that wasn't super psychological or super like it's your day and I don't really want either of those. So I just started writing down questions that were important to me. Where are we going to live? Because we lived in two different cities at that point and what is your kid going to call me? Because his son was young at that time, and it was hard for him to know how to relate to me. And what holidays are we going to celebrate? And how much money do you have?

Like, I think that's a reasonable question to ask someone that you're throwing your lot in with. I wrote these questions down, and we ended up answering them. And for about a third of them, we're like, yeah, okay, we got that one. We agree. For a third of them, we were like, no, you're wrong. We totally disagreed. And for the final third, we just had no idea how to answer it. And in all three cases, it was okay. Because these questions aren't about engraving a contract. It's about knowing

each other. So I was telling a friend of mine about this and she said, that would make a good book. And through happenstance and I'm not exaggerating, it became a book. I had to write like 70 more questions, but it became a book. And by other happenstance, it became a huge book. I heard from people who were grateful, oh, this helped us get to know each other. I heard from people who were angry. We broke up because of your book. I heard from a lot of parents who were like,

I don't know about this person, my kid is choosing, I'm giving this book, I help them think it through. And I heard from a lot of single people who said, this helped me figure out who I'm looking for. So all those things seemed kind of useful. And then, okay, decades, decades, decades, years go by. And I was sitting at my desk about a year and a half ago or something thinking, you know, what's not in that book, questions about social media, because there wasn't such a thing.

You know what else isn't about in that book? Questions about politics. And back then, you might disagree, but you could marry someone from a different political party without wanting to, you know, feeling murderous, but it's different now. So I suggested to the publisher, let's revise, and they were like, yes, let's do it. And additionally, I noticed, wow, that book was written by a white person, four white people. I'm still a white person, but

can I expand the view here so that it's not just for people who look like me and without being performative or virtue signaling or all the things can I genuinely make it useful to more people? So those things were behind the revision. And in our brief chat before getting into the meat of the discussion, you said that it was interesting to go back and read a book by the 20 years ago version of yourself. You hadn't even been married at that point.

So what are the differences between the voice of that person and the voice of this person? I really appreciate you bringing that up because that was the most powerful part was to remember her. part was to remember her and I kind of loved her and I know her but she's not me anymore, but I really appreciated her sweetness and hopefulness. I just appreciated her intention to make an honest commitment without having any idea what she was talking about and You know, there were some embarrassing things too like oh god, I would never say that today but mostly it was a full circle kind of feeling and

I don't know how long you've been married, but I'm about to have my 11 year anniversary. Congratulations. No, no, no, no, no, 13 year anniversary. Two more congratulations. So something happens, you know, it's like you get in a little boat with someone and you like push off. You're like, I think we're going over there. Let's head to that other shore of happiness and meaning and satisfaction and support and friendship and all the things.

And at some point, at least speaking for myself, that shore disappears. And you're still in the little boat together in the middle of an ocean. And you're not sure where it's going. And you've lost sight. And now you're in the middle of the sea together. And what do you do? I didn't know any of that when I wrote the book, of course. But now I do that it's this moment to moment journey.

I don't mean to sound cliched. And it's incredibly intimate and incredibly messy and incredibly powerful and incredibly mysterious. So that's the person who revised the book. Was the person who knows that? So is the book for people considering getting married or entering into a long-term relationship or could it be for people who are already in it and want to just sort of get to know each other better

or have hard conversations with some sort of structure? It was written for people who are thinking of making a commitment and wanted to do it really responsibly and honestly. But it turns out that since the questions, many, the questions have no answer or since answers change. questions, the questions have no answer or since answers change, that it has been, I didn't anticipate this, but it has been really useful for people in longer term relationships who feel stuck on some particular issue or who just want to reconnect to go back and answer the questions. And so it's not a different process, interestingly, to answer the questions, although, you know, there are different contexts for it.

So how do you recommend people do this, that we do one at a time, we have some sort of marathon session where we go through all of them, what's your guidance? Don't lock yourself in your basement and say you can't come out to you and throw all these questions. Don't do that.

So everyone's different, of course. But my suggestion is just start with five questions. Start with question number one. And there may be some chapters that you don't need to visit, like questions about faith because you share a faith. But otherwise, I would say start with a few. And take your time. Duncan, my husband and I,

at the time we were doing this, one lived in New York and the other lived in Boston. And so we used the travel time, whether we were traveling alone or together, to be on the phone or just to talk to each other face to face for these questions. And that was good because there's three hours or five hours if

there was a lot of traffic. And we knew it was going to start and we knew it was going to end. Sometimes we answered questions when we went out to dinner. What we never did was like, hey, we're sitting around at home, not doing anything. Let's answer some questions. We didn't do that. We made it a little more defined. And different people have different tolerance made it a little more defined. And people have different tolerance for such conversations. And the person with more tolerance is not the better person.

That kind of gets me to what I was gonna ask next, which is I suspect my people listening to this, we're like, I don't wanna disturb the peace. I don't wanna get into this tough stuff. I wanna avoid conflict. Fair enough. So this is a way to avoid conflict. And I understand that person. I am that person. But the questions in this book, or let's say 85%, they're going to come

up anyway. And it's better to look at them now, whenever now is, when there's a sense of spaciousness, rather than as the point of conflict. And if there are questions that are disturbing or triggering, don't look at them. Respect yourself, but they are all gonna come up anyway. And probably the most frequently asked question I've heard is I wanna do this, but my partner doesn't.

I want to answer these questions. How can I get my partner to do this? How do you? You cannot. So retire the question and ask yourself. Am I willing to be in a relationship with someone who will not discuss the relationship with me? with someone who will not discuss the relationship with me. I phrase that question so that no answer, but no, is appropriate, but do you wanna be in a relationship with someone who will not talk to you about the relationship? My answer would definitely be no.

So let's talk about some of the topics. Let's start with the, let's dive right into the deep end here, money. How do you recommend, we talk dive right into the deep end here, money. How do you recommend, we talk about money because this is as I understand it, one of the most contentious and uncomfortable issues in relationships. So true. That's why this book exists. So it's like, oh, it's not me asking the questions. It's this lady who wrote these questions down. So, oh, she says, how much money do you have?

How much debt do you have? These are important questions that if you don't know them going in, you could be surprised one way or another. So, all these are called the hard questions, not the fun questions. So, I hope it is a given that they're not easy. So the hardest question for us, by the way, was, are we gonna keep our money in the same bank account? Or not? And simultaneously, he said, of course, and I said, no way. I don't wanna keep my money in the same bank account

as you. I have my own business. You're divorced. You have a child. I happen to spend a lot of money on my hair. I don't really want to talk about that with you. So, that was hard for us. And there's no right answer, of course. But the point to me was, I don't want you up in my grill. And the point to him was, are you going to have your own milk carton in the refrigerator? Like, how are we going to really do this if we keep

our money separately? Are you going to buy the groceries this week and I'm going to buy the next week? To him, the question was, are you in or are you out? That is a more important concern than I don't want you to know much I spend on certain beauty products. It had this meaning for him that I didn't have for me and that I had not considered. I didn't know to him it was an indication of my commitment. So we put our money together from that day and to this very day. Religion. Yeah. There are a few questions in the book that I would say are deal breakers. And it's really important to know

which are deal breaker questions for you and religion can be one of them, not for everyone. But there are people who feel like unless we are the same religion, I can't make a life with you. Fair. Good. So know that about each other. And then there are people, probably at least as many people who have different religions and figure out a way to make it work. One of my husband's biggest concerns, and he still says this to me, is, I'm not a Buddhist. Is there going to be some time when you're going to want to leave because I'm not? And I say, I don't think so, I'll let you know. But my worry on that

and just getting heavy I know is hopefully we'll get old and certainly we will die. Then I think it might become something important. I want my death to be attended to according to Buddhist principles. So we have a little contingency plan. You call this person, call that person, and so on, but if it's going to be a deal breaker, you should know it now before you have babies and stuff like that. Another deal breaker question, just FYI is do you want children? People change their minds, certainly, but that's not something you can do and then change. One of the couples I heard from early on who broke up. Broke up because one didn't know the other didn't want children. And the other

one really did. So there's just a few questions that I would say are deal-breakers and those two children and religion are among them. You know, I self-describe as a Buddhist and I'm pretty serious about meditation. My wife is definitely sort of Buddhist curious or Buddhist inclined but would not describe herself as a Buddhist and meditates episodically. But it's not been a problem at all in our world. Not really in our relationship. She may have a different story on that,

but for me, it has not been a problem. But I have seen relationships where if one party is really interested in growth, personal growth, and the other is not, that can create problems. So I'm just curious, how do you manage that? And what would you recommend to people? I suspect there's a non-trivial percentage of listeners to this show who are really into this stuff and working on themselves, training their own mind, and they're with people who

are not interested and might be wondering how to balance that. Yeah, it's a really important point. Yeah, it's a really important point. Yeah, there's something similar to the question, how can I get this person to have these conversations with me when I want to and they don't? How can I get them to be interested in personal growth or deepening or exploration if they're not the same answer? You can't. You can't. The real question I think is not how can I get them to be like this. The real question is how intimate can we be with each other? How much can we share? How much will this person hear, listen to me?

How much will this person take an interest in me? How much can I show of who I am? And how wide will they open to me? If that's there, I think the particulars of lifestyle and how time is spent and how money is spent are secondary. So again, we'll just say you can't make them be interested in what you're interested in. Relationships are really terrifying. Everything's on the line. There is no choice but to be vulnerable, wake up and go, how am I going to be vulnerable today? How am I going to be open today? What am I going to feel today?

What am I going to be asked to accept? All predicated on openness and gentleness and vulnerability, I find it's easy to come up with reasons not to go forward. And I think the real reason most relationships fail, armchair analysis here, based on nothing, is because we know that someday, it's a very Buddhisty thing I'm about to say, it's going to end. If someone's going to fall out of love, someone's going to change their mind, someone's going to die, which is weirdly the best case scenario. It's a very strange design. There's a design flaw here somewhere.

And I think when we start to consider, well, how much am I going to give? Am I really going to commit? Am I going to say yes? I will share a life with you. It also kind of means I'm going to share a death with you. We don't really look at that. I understand. But then I, in others, I see just start to throw boulders in the way.

I, you don't have a sense of humor or... You don't make enough money. Or you don't have a practice or you're this or that. Those are real things, I'm not poo-pooing them. But it's also useful to look just under the surface of those concerns to find if there is an a little shakiness, human and understandable in your own heart and mind about the potency of intimacy and the unpredictability.

Sometimes you might think, well, if we're on the same path, I might be able to predict a little better. How we're gonna spend our time or what we're on the same path, I might be able to predict a little better. How we're going to spend our time or what we're going to talk about or I see us in the future if you're coming bodhisattvas or whatever. And you can't. Yeah, that won't help. Just to put a fine point on the specifics around how to maybe approach it if you're in a relationship where you're getting really interested in meditation or personal development, personal growth, and the other person isn't. Tell me if I heard you correctly on this one, the practical advice on the sort of narrow question.

What you said or what I heard was, first of all, you can't force them to get interested in whatever you're interested in, but if they're not interested in you, that's a problem. That's it. That's the fine point, perfectly said. Thank you. You don't have to be interested in what I'm interested in, but you do have to be interested in me.

And if you're not, there's a gulf that can't be bridged. You know, interpolating back to events in my life with Bianca. There were moments especially early on where she was threatened by my burgeoning interest in this meditation thing when I started going on retreats and making new friends and that was scary to her. But she was always very interested in it, even though she was one of the reasons I should say that she wasn't meditating is because I was very annoying about it, even though she was, well, one of the reasons I should say that she wasn't meditating is because I was very annoying about it and it kind of said, you should do this thing

and I got kind of pretty annoying there. So don't do that, it's my advice. But the other thing is that she was always interested in what was going on for me. If I wanted to talk about it, she never turned off to that. I've written two books, I'm in the middle of a third, she's deeply, deeply involved in helping me write these books.

That's fabulous. I will read every page, allowed to her, sometimes several times at different stages in the book. So she is my conciglier, no question about it. You're bringing a tear to my eye. That is so beautiful. And it's not just really great. It's the best you can ask for from another person.

It's wonderful that you guys have that. I do not take it for granted. And so to me, that fits exactly with what you're recommending. So what if she's not as interested in going out a 10-day salary treat as I am? She's supportive of my doing it. I mean, parenthetically, I'm less annoying

since I've started meditating. So she's not like there's no self interest here. But, you know, anytime I want to talk about that stuff, she's super open to it and she helps me write books and et cetera, et cetera. So I'm not gonna force her or try to force her, which wouldn't work anyway to be, you know, try to enter the first stage of enlightenment.

That seems like a failing strategy. My husband happens to know how boatloaded about 1980s dance hall reggae. I was not that interested in that. Anyway, I'm not trying to equate these things, but why do I love it now? And when he sees something or comes across something, that's like, oh my God, I can't believe this thing was just reissued or this person just emailed me, then I'm just, I'm so happy for him. And just going back for a moment to the word intimacy, you know,

romance happens beyond the pale and that some unearthly realm. It's the closest most of us will ever get to a transcendent realm is falling in love, I think. And much of the work and relationship is spent trying to get back there. I remember that or if only we could go back there or let's have date night and okay, good, but you're never going back there. Maybe for moments, because it ends, but what doesn't end is intimacy. How much can you show of yourself? How much can you know the other person? You never get to the end of that. It always can go deeper. And so to me, in writing the hard questions and thinking, well, what can I commit to in a relationship? Well, I can't commit to love

I can't commit to love or desire or anything about romance, but I can commit to intimacy for my life. That seems honest. And what you're describing in your writing process with Bianca and her you know appreciation of what you love, that's intimacy to me and that's what matters. Hey, man. Much more of my conversation with Susan Piver coming up right after this. Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time here on Earth? And what really is the best cereal?

These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast. Life is short, with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions, like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life.

We explore how they felt during the highs and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times, but if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like, if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow life is short wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondering app. Let's do some more hard questions. Social media. Yeah. No, my God. Well, I remember one of the questions I wrote was how much of our life are we willing to share on social media? Because there are some people who are like nothing.

And of course, some people who want to show every bowl of oatmeal. There are questions mostly relating to privacy. How much privacy do I want? How much do you feel comfortable with? And what about past relationships and people who may friend you or follow you or something? There are questions about just what do you feel comfortable with in the world of social media? And those answers certainly are very likely to change as

social media just continues to change and get weirder. But basically the questions revolve and things like privacy and how much do you feel comfortable sharing? You have thoughts on how we can have these conversations that give us the highest odds of achieving some sort of mutual understanding. That's a really good question. Yeah, in the book I try to make recommendations for having the conversation at a time where you're not multitasking and

sitting outside together or on a drive together or some space that feels protected to you. What I can't suggest are ways to avoid disagreement or embarrassment or discomfort. Disagreement, embarrassment, discomfort, are gonna be there over and over and over again in your relationship. So the thing I can suggest is listening. It's more important to listen than talk. Listening is a very particular skill.

And in these areas that are fraught when we feel very vulnerable, and oh my God, if you answer this question this way, I'm really scared what's going to happen to us and so on, we tend to stop listening. And instead we listen for. I'm listening for this thing that might make me feel happy or this thing that might terrify me. And when you listen for, as opposed to just listening, you're not really listening. You're listening to yourself, which is important, but precludes meaningful conversation.

So the best definition of listening I ever heard, from a friend and fellow writer in Catherine McCoon who said, listening is when you stop thinking your thoughts and start thinking mine. Such a great brilliant definition. So instead of thinking about what I think about what you're saying, I listen to what you're saying. And trust you, trust myself. And give myself to listening.

That's a very underrated skill. And it tends to open meaningful conversation whether it results in agreement or disagreement. So that's the best suggestion I have is listen and don't listen for. And when you notice you're listening for, just try to relax and think, I'm going to really get to know this person, not the person I wish they were, but who they are. And there's nothing more loving than that. We have faced constant choices with our loved ones. Am I going to choose you or the person I wish you were? Do I choose to love you or am I going to wait and try to love the person I hoped you were?

The more we can choose you, the more love there will be. I don't need to sound trite, but often our most intense relationships take the form, don't do this, do do that. I will try not to hurt you in this way. Those are important things, but when they become the centerpiece of the relationship rather than who are you, and can I show you who I am?

Then I don't know what that's called, but I don't think it's called love. So anyway, this is not your question, I know. Is there a way to have these questions that will make them fruitful, I think, was the is not your question I know. Is there a way to have these questions that will make them fruitful? I think was the heart of your question. And the answer is listen to each other, really listen to each other, and then wait.

And then say what you think. If you heard of reflective listening, I learned this, I've shouted these guys out before on the show, but here I go again. Dan Clermann and Mudita Nisker are a pair I learned this. I've shouted these guys out before on the show, but here I go again. Dan Clermann and Moodita Nisker are a pair of Buddhist inflected communications coaches I've worked with for nearly three years.

And they have given me many, many tools, but the one that I use the most or try to use the most, try to remember to use is called reflective listening. I had heard the advice, oh, you should be a good listener and you should maybe turn down the volume on your own ego and turn up the volume on the other person's words. That sounded good, but I wasn't really good at doing it, and then I got in my head about what a horrible person I am, and I have a retractable jaw and clove and hooves and blah, blah, blah. And so I was very relieved when I got this piece of advice that was very, very actionable from

Dan and Mudita. So, if somebody's talking, if you know how to do reflective listening, you listen to what they're saying to the best of your ability, you don't have to be compulsive about it. And then when they're done, repeat back what they've said in your own words, and not in a long way. The phrase that Mudita uses is just reflect the bones of what they've said in your own words, and not in a long way, the phrase that Moudita uses is just reflect the bones of what they've said. So you might speak for a couple paragraphs about what you're worried about,

and I can just sort of repeat it back in a sentence. So this sounds like the real fear here is X. And it does a couple things. One for you, it forces you to listen because you've got to be ready to repeat it back in your own language. And for the other person, whether they're aware or not, and often they're not, it's just deeply satisfying to know that what you've said has been heard and absorbed. That's beautiful. And I love that Mudita means sympathetic joy. And that's just, that's so perfect. So that sounds great,

and I'm going to check them out. And this is a much less elegant way of kind of maybe doing the same thing. You'll tell me the other day we were in a fight about something. Can I remember what it is? I cannot. But I was like, and this and that and the other thing. And I'm very upset and this really hurt me. And when I finished, there was a pause. And I said, and now I need you to say back to me why I'm so upset. Well, I mean, yes, you were you articulating the deep need we all have, whether aware of it or not, which is to be heard or seen or, you know, acknowledged,

validated. And less his heart, he did. He didn't tell me what he thought about what I said. He told me why I was upset in his own words. So I love that. I love that there's a system for it. I would love to learn more about it. Yeah, for somebody who tends toward the narcissistic I'm talking about myself here.

It's been a really helpful tool to get me out of my own head and thinking the thoughts of the other person. You become their advocate in some way. That's so true. And interestingly, when you stop thinking your thoughts, I mean, that's a big deal. And you start thinking mine. It means you let what I'm saying, my own thoughts fill you. Not with an agenda, not picking and choosing, but you actually let them in. And I know

we're both meditators and I'm a meditation teacher as well as you. There's sometimes the instruction is given, observe the breath. Notice the breath. That's perfectly fine. But there's another instruction that's feel the breath. Feel the body breathe. Feel the sensation of breath. And there's a sense of, I'm not stepping away from myself and looking back at myself breathing. I'm just embodied. I'm feeling it.

And whatever is removed in the difference between noticing the breath and feeling the breath is also what's removed when you listen, as opposed to listen for, I think. What do you think? Yeah, you're taking yourself out of it. And you're completely present at the same time. Yes. Yeah, it's a subtraction with addition built in. It's a good formula. It's not about me right now and none of this could happen without me. The other advantage I found to listening and stating somebody's position back to them,

even if I disagree with it, actually, especially if I disagree with it, this is useful at work if I'm in a conflict, is that I'm less likely to revert to defensiveness because engaging my prefrontal cortex, the sort of rational part of my brain in order to think the thoughts of the other person, if you're engaging to prefrontal cortex, the amygdala, the reptile brain, the fight or flight part of the brain has less purchase.

So it de-escalates because I'm very good at being defensive. And so I'm less likely to revert to my power alley, which is fiery defensiveness. That's very interesting. And it brings to mind the little known Horenevian directional theory, which I don't know why anyone would have ever heard of that unless you're really into the endiogram like I am, because sometimes it's reference,

but the Horenevian directional theory, something defined by the German psychoanalyst Karen Horni in like the 50s or something, she posited that there are three primary ways of responding to challenges, and one is to be defensive. It's called move against. I'm going to move against what you're saying. I'm going to try to take it away. I'm going to try to discredit it, whatever. Cool. The second way is to move towards. Oh, it's okay. We can work it out. Let's pacify the situation.

If we just sit down and talk about it, we'll figure it out. Okay, but it's as much of a defense as moving against. And the third way is called move away. Just avoid. And I personally have found this theory very useful in my own relationship in general, just to be able to identify my husband moves against. That's his first impulse when something is upsetting to him. Get it out of here.

And I move away, just withdraw. So our fights can look like this. One person chasing, yes, for you. But it's been very helpful. And there are questions in the book about fighting styles that arose from this theory that is really helpful to know which one are you and which one am I so that when he wants to just talk about everything, get to the bottom of it, tell me why I'm wrong, tell me why he's right, his problem solving methodology was

shared with me by someone else is called to define the problem, assign blame, problem solved. Well, I agree with step one, but this, this seems really key to in terms of how to have these discussions or just how to have a relationship, which is to know what the other person's operating manual is. Absolutely. He felt that what I was doing by avoiding, he thought I was like not interested, not willing to confront, being a wimp, just checking out. And I thought I was collecting myself, and ceasing to dissociate because it was scary, and trying to find what I really thought and felt and I needed

the introvert way to do it. I thought he was getting all up in my face and attacking me and being a bully and sometimes he was. He thought he was trying to put it on the table so we can resolve it and love each other more. That's what he said. But we learned over time, well, okay, I'll stay longer than I feel comfortable staying in the conversation. And he's learned because he's wonderful. I'll get a hold of my own feelings right now. I get to stay a little quiet. I get a letter collect yourself. So we just sort of move toward each other in these fighting styles on good days. Sometimes, you know, it still explodes in the wrong way, but It's been really helpful to find a way to respect the other person's way. I bet if we were to do a longitudinal study of successful relationships

learning to work with and work around the other person's fighting style would be a huge component. I than work around the other person's fighting style would be a huge component. I totally agree. And the fighting styles can look really different. When he gets angry, he just feel heat. His face gets red, his voice gets louder. When I get angry, I get cold. And they're both ways of being angry. but to understand, oh, you're angry. It looks like coldness when you do it. It looks like heat when I do. Helps.

You've used the word throughout this conversation many times, discomfort. And you wrote a column, an excellent column in the 10% happier newsletter. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for doing it. And you, entitled it, I believe, the magic of discomfort. What do you mean by that? Yeah.

Well, it seems that relationships are extremely uncomfortable. And they are uncomfortable if you've never met the person because you're afraid, like, what if they don't like me, what if they do like me? It's uncomfortable even when you fall in love as wonderful and powerful and beautiful as it is because everything's so meaningful. And you think, well, why did they look at me that way or why did they not do this? You think, oh, maybe the whole thing's falling apart. It's very uncomfortable. And then in long-term relationships, the discomfort looks like irritation. It's very strange.

Have you come with these lofty, very powerful, very real, heart intentions to just love and respect and support this person. And then they come home and they put their coat somewhere weird and you get all pissed off. What's up with that? There's just this perpetual irritation in living with someone. It's uncomfortable. To acknowledge that keeps you on your toes. It keeps you open. It keeps you relating to the living aspect of the relationship with and less so to the let's just nail it down in this perfect picture

mode. It keeps you awake. It requires a lot of presence of mind to work with it. Let me not blow up. Let me actually make this point right now because I'm tired of this. It keeps you present and all the magic that there could be in our experience and that's a big statement is only in the present. So there's some sense that I'm never going to get comfortable here. Never going to get comfortable. I'm going to have to stay awake. I'm going to have to stay attuned and I'm going to get comfortable here. Never going to get comfortable. I'm going to have to stay awake. I'm going to have to stay attuned. And I'm going to have to realize, I don't know what's going to happen next. Those are good conditions for deepening love. Another useful thing about knowing it's going to be uncomfortable is that when it inevitably becomes uncomfortable, you might not tell yourself a story, well, this is all jacked up. This isn't the way it's supposed to be. So true. There's some kinds of discomfort. You shouldn't do that with. I always feel obligated

to say that discomfort's related to abuse or addiction. Those things are different category. But the other, normal and normal irritations or discomfort can range from, why did you put your coat there? I don't know why I'm fixated on the coat right now. And you know, oh, you didn't tell me you're going to have gender reassignment surgery. You know, those are, there's a big spectrum there, but those are not abuse or addiction. So it's always going to happen. And then when it does, you can think just as you say,

well, this may mean things. This is not the right relationship for me, but this doesn't mean that what's happening, that this may mean things. This is not the right relationship for me, but this doesn't mean that what's happening that this relationship is wrong. And I find that really, really helpful personally. As we wind down here, let's hit a few more hot topics. How do you recommend we talk about politics in this fraud time? Oh, God.

I can answer that. I would run for political office. Well, what are the questions we should put on the table? Do we share a political ideology? Does it matter to you who I vote for? And if not, right now, do we imagine a time that it could present a problem? 20 years ago, those weren't questions for most people. They're maybe interesting or useful, but they weren't life and death the way they are now. And another question that is worth considering is,

do either of us have friends or family who support a political or social ideology that runs counter to what we believe? And if so, how are we going to remain in relationship with them or not? We all have friends who feel the opposite or family members who are like, did the thing that is the bad, bad thing that we wish no one ever did, whatever that might be. So those weren't conversations that I think we were having 20 years ago, I don't think. So at this point, it's very useful to consider those things. Food. There are some people who feel that

the whole relationship is built around dinner. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but we have dinner together. We go out for dinners if we can afford to. Having meals together is a critical part of what it means to have a home life together or a relationship, and not everyone feels that way. So those are just reasonable questions to ask. But there are questions about like veganism or vegetarianism.

There's an ethical component to the way we may eat or shop or prepare food that if one feels one way and it's not shared, it's not so much about food. It's about, can I live in a house where someone cooks meat when I'm a vegan? Because it doesn't just make me feel like, oh, I can't eat dinner with you, but it's like a whole different way of looking at the world. And I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but I've certainly seen and spoken to many people from whom this question is a deal breaker. I'm a vegan and I eat with a committed carnivore

six-year-old bacon fan, and it's been totally fine for our relationship, although he sometimes tries to shove the bacon into my mouth which I can get a little tricky. Now you took sex out of the book. Why? Because what do I know about sex? The questions were stupid in the first edition and you know, it's this is something that is just so personal, so particular, so individual.

It doesn't make sense for some stranger to come up to you with a bunch of questions that you should ask about your sex life. And just personally, I find that conversations about sex are only so helpful, but sexual connections, the sexual whatever it is that you have with another person, that seems to be a better way to work things out is in the doing, if I may say, rather than the reflecting. It's also the one area that is subject to like fleeting change. Just things can change and keep changing. It's probably the most changeable. Another thing that's important to note about sex is it needs

protection. It's not the kind of thing that you can talk about like you talk about food and money. It puts it in a realm that's too prosaic and too conventional. And it needs its own crucible. And that crucible will look different for each person, for each couple. So it felt to me like questions about sex would be intruding. And that very personal crucible, where sex and desire seem to flourish. Let me say one final thing and then we'll wrap up. I write memoirs for a living, so I've been

thinking a little bit about a stage of my life where I was getting very, very interested early on in meditation and really wanting to progress in meditation. but was not really eager or willing to look at the messy aspects of my own relationships, and that was holding me back from making progress in meditation. And so I wonder if you think this is a not uncommon pitfall. So what comes to my mind is meditation in my experience doesn't care what you're willing to look at and unwilling to look at. As you sit, you soften.

Soften here doesn't mean like, oh, everything's fine, I feel great. It means allowing. I'm going to sit with myself as I am. And I'm going to allow myself to be as I am in this moment, in this moment. That's actually the practice. So whether you want this to happen or not, your heart starts to kind of melt and you start to feel more vulnerable. You start to feel more. Because the wall starts to come down, and when the wall comes down, anything can come in and touch you.

So what you're unwilling to look at, you can't avoid seeing. Further, as you know, and you're writing about this, I happen to know, meditation in the style that we practice in, generally speaking, is famously associated with compassion. And that's not an accident. Like how is sitting there doing nothing going to make me more compassionate? This is why.

This softening and opening happens. So compassion presents itself organically. Sometimes it looks like, oh, I really care about this other person's experience. Sometimes it looks like crying for yourself over past wounds, but the heart just wakes up. So you can try to avoid relationship problems and being a jerk or whatever it is

that we all are from time to time, but your practice won't let you get very far with that. It will keep sourcing, more loving kindness, more compassion, more sympathetic joy, and more equanimity. And it might take us by surprise, it took me by surprise, and then all the relationships that you're in are fed into that cauldron of the confusion and power and potency and messiness of an open heart. And you see more clearly. Before we go, can you just remind everybody of the name of the book, any other books

that we should look at, all the places we can find you on the interwebs plug please. Thank you. If you google my name, Susan Piver, or Open Heart Project, you'll find my world online. My new book is called The Hard Questions, 100 Essential Questions to Ask Before You Say I Do, although it's 130 now. I've written two other books about relationships that I want to offer in case they could be useful. One of them is called the Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships, and it really delves deeper into some of the things we were talking about here, how can my meditation practice support me in my relationships? meditation practice, support me in my relationships. And I also wrote a book called The Wisdom of a Broken Heart. And that's the book that I get the most communications

about to this very day. It's been out for 10 years. And it's about how to work with heartbreak as a practice, not to feel better or make it everything okay, but tremendous wisdom is invoked when one's heart is broken. So that's what that book is about. Susan Piver, thank you very much. Thank you, Dan.

Thanks again to Susan, always great to talk to her. Don't forget to join the Taming Anxiety Challenge in the 10% Happier app. Download the 10% Happier app wherever you get your apps to join that challenge by June 24th. This show is made by Samuel John's DJ, Cashmere Kim, Bike of Mom, Maria, Wartell, and Jen, Poi Poi, Poyant, the color of Poi Poi. Audio engineering comes from ultraviolet audio.

Those are great folks over there. And as always, a shout out to my ABC News friends and comrades, Ryan Kessner and Josh Cohen. We'll see well on Friday right here for a bonus with Leslie Booker, the meditation teacher who is featured in our Taming To A Prime members, you can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

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