Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 377: A More Relaxed Way to Meditate | Alexis Santos

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

A common problem among type-A people is trying to win at meditation. But the practice doesn’t work like that. If you over-effort, if you try to make something happen, it’s pretty much guaranteed not to happen. What is guaranteed is that you will suffer. Meditation is like a video game where you can’t move forward if you want to move forward too badly.  Our guest today is Alexis Santos, who has been practicing meditation for twenty years and was a student of the highly influential Burmese monk Sayadaw U Tejaniya. Alexis is also a core teacher in the Ten Percent Happier app and the lead teacher of our On the Go course. In this episode, Alexis recounts his time learning from Sayadaw and shares an approach to meditation that is more relaxed than what many of us may be used to. It just might change your practice. Watch Season 2 of Ted Lasso on Apple TV+. Subscription required. Apple TV+ and/or select content may not be available in all regions. To join the Ted Lasso Challenge by midnight tonight, download the Ten Percent Happier app here: https://10percenthappier.app.link/install Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/alexis-santos-377 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonical and the Great Meditation Teacher Alexis

Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, I don't know about you, but I have spent a goodly portion of my meditation practice trying too hard, push, push, pushing for, I don't even know what. This is, I think, quite a common problem, especially among type A people.

We try to win at meditation, but the practice doesn't work like that. If you over effort, if you try to make something happen, it's pretty much guaranteed not to happen. What is pretty much guaranteed is that you will suffer. I've used this analogy before, but meditation is kind of like a video game where you can't move forward if you want to move forward too badly. After having suffered in this way for many, many, many years, I had the good fortune of doing a few meditation retreats recently with a teacher by the name of Alexis Santos,

who introduced me to a way more relaxed way to practice. Alexis's teaching style is highly unusual, at least compared to what I'm used to. And while I bucked it against it at first, as is my tendency, as somebody who can be a little dismissive and judgmental, I did pretty quickly come to see that Alexis's style is extremely valuable and

extremely practical to put it simply the guy has changed the way I meditate. And that's why I wanted to bring him on the show today because he might do the same for you. Alexis has been practicing meditation for 20 years. He was a student of a very influential and fascinating Burmese monk by the name of Sayada Utesi India. He was a student of a very influential and fascinating Burmese monk by the name of Sayada Utesy India. He is an intriguing character who we will discuss today. Alexis also happens to be a core teacher in the 10% happier app and the lead teacher of our on the Go course, which I highly recommend. It's filled with all these incredible free-range meditation techniques. Speaking of the 10% happier app,

a quick reminder today is the last day to join me in the Ted Lasso Challenge, which we're doing in collaboration with Apple TV+. This is a free five day meditation challenge. The goal is to help you practice radical kindness to yourself, to your loved ones, to the world at large. Every day in the challenge, I'll drop a video, drawing on some short clips

from the acclaimed TV show Ted Lasso to explain how you can use kindness to improve your relationships. And then after each video, you'll get a short but powerful guided meditation from Las Armiento, who was on the show a few days ago, that will help you practice what you've just learned in the video to join this challenge,

which by the way is totally free, just download the 10% happier app today, wherever you get your apps. Okay, here we go now with Alexa Santos. Alexa Santos, my friend, welcome back to the show. Good to see you, Dan. My quiz. I think I have good places to start, probably is,

can you just give us some grounding and who is Syedah, Ootasia, and how did you come to know him? Just for the uninitiated I want to say Syedah, S-A-Y-A-D-A-W-U, which as far as I can tell it's just the letter U and it's kind of like in in Burma It's kind of like MC might you know it's kind of like MC might be in front of a name in Ireland. And then Tejanea, T-J-A-N-I-Y-A. So how did you come to know this gentleman?

What's his story and what's his approach to practice? Sure. So Saita, Utejanea, Saita means teacher, so I'll just maybe keep it short and say, Saita. He's a monk in Burma and is really a meditation teacher, focuses almost exclusively on teaching, all day long to whoever shows up at his retreat center, whether it's other monastics, nuns, and monks, or lay people like me when I showed up. And I started studying with him in 2003. I had been kind of exploring the different methods of meditation, mostly in India. And was really looking for a personal teacher I had.

I had a few roadblocks in my practice, and I didn't really have anyone to check in with, and it was getting clear to me the value of having someone who's truly done their own work and is embodying wisdom. And so when I heard about this really young teacher at the time, his teacher had just passed away, Shui-Umin, Saidah, very highly respected, monk, and had left really Saidah, Tejanea, as his principal student, and was really just in the first couple of years of his teaching. So it was really by chance I had met someone who told me about Saito, and he had said, just this person that told me about Saito Titiania and his style, he said just a few words,

and the word that really stood out to me was natural. And I knew I wanted to go check out, what is he teaching? Because a lot of my practice up into that point had been, could say in some ways anything but natural. I was at times, as many meditators discovered, trying so hard, tying themselves up in knots. For me, there was also a kind of a fog in the background of some really deep discontent that was surfacing, which was surprising because here was this meditation practice

that had been providing such support. And I really had found a deep contentment, almost like I had found what I was looking for, because I had recently kind of abandoned the life that I was on in search of something that could give me some more meaning. And so it was odd to me that I was hitting these road bumps. And what I discovered with Syedall was an ability to really relax and open up the awareness to include the whole picture. Right? So all the emotions, all the mental states, all the feelings, and to do that in a way that was really accessible. And really just in the first few, could say minutes even of being with him, it was clear, I wanted to go down that path of studying with him. So I stayed there for a couple years.

I ordained as a monk because I was there and why not. And then it's been my primary way of practicing. Can you say, just give us a little bit more detail about the difference between the way you had been practicing meditation before meeting Saita, and then after after you you describes it as being natural and opening up to many more aspects of your experience. So how was that technically in the simplest possible terms different from what you had been doing previously. Well, what I have been doing which is in a way the way that many of us first start practicing, which is to bring our attention to a primary object in the style that I was studying beforehand was to really stay with the sensations of the body or of the breath, and to really use that as the anchor point. And that is a perfectly good way of practicing. It's described oftentimes as a progressive practice that the Buddha encouraged.

And the element that I think I was missing and that really side of Gutezania starts in right up at front is to acknowledge that how we are looking at that object, whether it's the sensation, let's say, of sitting right now or the breath coming in and out, how it is that we're looking at that is really a critical component of our practice.

So beginning to understand that the mind that's working is more important than the thing that we're looking at. The thing that we're looking at, we call the object. So the object might be the emotion that we're having, might be how the body feels hot. If it's a hot day, right now it's scorching. We're recording this during some of the heat waves that's going on.

So those are the objects that we can pay attention to. And it's important to remember that it's the mind that is actually doing that work of knowing. And so often when we're paying attention to an object, we get so engrossed in what it is that we're watching that we forget even that we have a mind. Or we don't really get skilled that understanding the nature of awareness itself. If we're so focused on the object, it can be a little bit challenging to begin to explore the whole picture, meaning

the mind as well, the mind that's doing the practice. Let me just see if I can restate it in my words and you tell me if I'm right. If memory serves, you had dropped out of med school and gone to Asia and gotten into meditation and the type of meditation you were doing was really focused on the breath or the sensations elsewhere in the body. Right. So it's quite directed.

Then you meet this guy and he has you open up to whatever is coming up in your experience. So it can be sensations in the body, the feeling of your breath coming in and going out. It could be whatever emotion is happening or thinking or sites or sounds. And he says, don't get so engrossed in whatever the object is. In other words, whatever it is that you're paying attention to, I want you to pull back and notice what is the attitude of the mind that is aware?

That is very clear, Dan. Let's switch jobs. Yeah. And actually, this is a pro tip for listeners. This is a thing you can do in your meditation, which is straight from tip for listeners, this is a thing you can do in your meditation, which is straight from CYDA, which is every once in a while while you're meditating, ask yourself what's the attitude in the mind right now.

Can you say more about why that question is so illuminating? Sure. I mean, in a way, it points really directly at how it is that we are living our lives. When we choose to do anything, there are habits of mind that we are doing it with. So a conversation that we're having right now, if you're listening to the podcast, the state of mind that you're listening in with, when you talk with your family, your friends, when you do your work, there are all of these mental habits that are playing out.

And in a way, these are the habits that determine the quality of experience that we're having. These are the habits that will lead us down the path of suffering or of well-being. So the very simple, simple but not easy, as we say, mental maneuver there of checking the attitude is really an invitation to see how are you relating to the present moment? Are you wanting something to happen? Are you wanting something to stop happening? Now, the truth is almost 100% of the time in every mind that is on this planet,

we'll say at least the human minds, there is wanting and aversion. So it's not that we're saying sit down and have the right attitude, but it's an invitation to begin to recognize, wow, it is so interesting that even when I sit down to simply observe the present moment, so often I'll be wanting something, leaning in, and those little bits of movement of the mind become clear and clear that they lead to some kind of tension, some kind of stress. And it's those movements, we call them the defilements, which sound kind of a heavy term, but they're basically natural energies, habits of mind, that when we see them, recognize

them, and through wisdom, we begin to discover that those bits can be like a love. You're like, that's the work of wisdom. That's so that we see a more skillful, more open, clear way of relating to whatever it is that's happening. So I just, you know, add on to that that in a skillful way, particularly as we're starting out our practice, it is often helpful not to just throw up in the doors and say, well, I'll be aware of whatever. So typically we might still start with things that feel really within reach, just the physical experience of the body, right, or the body sitting or the breathing. But at the same time, the encouragement can be there relatively early on that awareness itself is not difficult.

And I think this oftentimes is a pretty radical shift for folks to hear. You know, and I texted you just before we started and I asked you, if you're aware, just simple text, are you aware to you? And now you, you know, you very honestly wrote back always. So I'm sure there's some truth to that Dan. But we see how easy it is and daily life, which is where we are all living, we can think how easy it is to get absorbed in the experience that we're having, meaning we lose awareness. And for a lot of folks that start to experience the benefit, let's say, of taking a few minutes of practice,

the natural desire to continue to be aware kind of arises on its own. And yet, we see how often it is the mind is doing anything other than being in the present moment, knowing something about what's happening. And so it can be helpful just to be reminded that awareness itself is not hard, but we forget, we forget to simply check the mind or to do something that allows awareness to return. We've now stated one explicitly and one kind of in passing, two of the primary phrases that SIDA uses

as his meditation instructions. Now, I'm gonna try to describe to people how SIDA teaches meditation, and then you'll correct me because I'm sure I'm gonna say this incorrectly. But the way I took it from you, which is one step removed, but you've done a lot of study and practice

in the style of meditation. The way I understand it is you start up by he'll say relax the body and then ask yourself a question, what's the attitude in your mind? You're trying to make something happen. You're trying to fend something off like knee pain or anxiety or restlessness. And you don't have to beat yourself up for the desire or aversion, just the seeing it is a kind of self liberation.

And then another question might be, are you aware right now? And what is being known in the mind right now? And then you just kind of cycle through this. What am I aware of? What's the attitude in the mind that is knowing what I'm aware of? And since as you acknowledge, especially for beginners, it's easy to get lost if you don't have a base of base of focus or concentration abilities. So yeah, then maybe you'll pick a more directed awareness and just be with the breath for a little while and then open up. What am I knowing? What's

the attitude in them on the mind that's knowing it? And it's a little bit less militant, a little bit more improvisational, a little bit more relaxed style. Am I describing it with some degree of accuracy? Sure. Yeah. I mean, in a way, and this is part of the framing of kind of understanding what it is that meditation practice is all about, which is to recognize that this is an opportunity to develop the skillful qualities of the mind. So we say the skillful qualities of mind, meaning those qualities

that when they are more and more developed lead to more well-being. We make better choices, we make more compassionate choices. We inhabit what is this elusive quality of wisdom, more so we can think and understand life in a more skillful way. So when we think about what is meditation practice, where is it leading? Well, it's leading us down the path of developing the skillful qualities of mind. Then we can see that the objects that we're paying attention to

are simply there or being used to help develop the mind, meaning whether it's the breath, we can use the breath to be aware. We can use the breath to develop stability, but we can also use thoughts, we can use even tension in the body, we can use a mind that's really scattered. Over time, any experience with the right attitude can help to develop awareness, stability of mind, and wisdom, any experience. The beauty of that, then, is we really can stop worrying about getting it right. And in a way, get interested in what can I learn about in the present moment? What can I learn from this present moment? Everything then becomes

something that we can develop awareness from. And so part of that understanding needs to really be And so part of that understanding needs to really be resting on a little bit of confidence that awareness itself is not difficult. So just a quick example, if I were to ask you and for those listening to this podcast right now, are you aware that you are hearing? So, Dana, you're aware that you're hearing? I am. Yes. Were you aware before I asked the question? I'm always aware. I know you are. That's true. I know. No, I think the honest answer is I was listening to you. Right. But I don't think I was, I don't think I was consciously mindful of here.

Yes, and that is the difference between, in a way, between awareness of that particular experience. Now, there may have been awareness in your mind around other objects, or just a general sense of being aware. But we can also add in elements that we're not necessarily currently being mindful of, and that's just a helpful way to explore. All right, I've been hearing sounds and I've been listening, and then being aware that hearing is happening, a very simple process.

Hearing is happening if there are sounds, and we have what is called the working ear door so the contact of those right so we get the arising of hearing as the experience. Knowing that hearing is happening not hard to do so oftentimes if I just you know to to students if I say you know are you aware that you're hearing they'll say well what now that you ask that question or do you know, are you aware that you're hearing? They'll say, well, what now that you ask that question? Or do you know the experience of your hands? Or can you feel your hands? So if we've been really absorbed into something else

and the attention shifts to the hands, yes, then it's available. And then we really start to see that, oh, right, being aware, it's not hard to feel the body. It's not hard to feel the posture. It's not hard to feel the posture. Sometimes it can feel a little bit out of reach if we're trying to grab something specific. But if we really learn to relax and simply recognize it is accessible to feel like I'm in the present moment, I'm not lost. I know where I am. I know the physical body generally. And I know maybe in some general way,

the current mood. Any of those doorways in is another what we, you know, an idea to discuss like a tap of the swing of getting the momentum of awareness going. We don't have to do a lot of work, but we do need just that light touch. The more times we do that light touch, that's the kind of establishment or the development of momentum. Right? So there's a whole lot of benefit that we can talk about in terms of why is momentum. So beneficial, but that really is in a way the foundation of how we can be in the present moment and be learning.

Just by way of backstory here, about a year ago, maybe a little less than a year ago as we're recording this now, I, during the pandemic, I had an incredible good fortune of going on a private retreat with Alexis and a few friends in Maine. And I had known Alexis for a long time, but I hadn't been on retreat with him. And I didn't know too much about the style of practice out of which he emerged and the way which he teaches. And so I came from a background of really

either watching the breath or doing love and kindness meditation or doing noting, you know, even if I wasn't watching the breath or doing love and kindness, I might just do an open awareness where I'm using noting just to notice thinking or rising and falling of the breath or hearing or whatever. It's pretty rigorous, a little bit athletic, all of these forms of practice. There's a lot of doing, a lot of efforting, at least the way I was doing it. And I show up on this retreat, and well, first of all, there's no schedule. I mean, most meditation retreats you go to, there's a very rigid schedule of, get up, you sit for an hour, then you have breakfast,

and then you do a yogi job, you know, washing pots or whatever, and then you do some walking meditation, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking lunch. Another little break, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking dinner. If you're having dinner, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, Dharma talk bed. Alexis was like, yeah, we're not really doing that. We'll get together once in the morning. We'll have breakfast, then there'll be nothing and then we'll have lunch, then there'll be more nothing. And then maybe we'll get together in the afternoon and talk, which by the way, it was like, what?

We're going to talk. So to me, it struck me as like just, you know, romper room, no rules, and the meditation instructions themselves were, you know, as I said before, quite a bit different. It wasn't like this set thing of, you're gonna note everything that comes up in your mind or you're gonna repeat these loving kindness phrases or watch every breath that comes and goes, it's no sit and or by the way, light out and stand, whatever you check your phone, it doesn't matter.

Whatever you're doing at any moment, you can be aware and just check the attitude in the mind and ask yourself, are you aware? And he mentioned this a moment ago, he likened this question of, are you aware to kind of pushing a kid on a swing, tap, and then you let it go, tap, and then you let it go. So you don't have to be neurotic

about asking yourself this question, ask yourself, are you aware? Maybe mindful for a few nanoseconds, then you drift, a little while later, tap the swing again. And over time, once you build up momentum, you don't need to tap the swing as much. And if you're getting totally lost, you can go back to a sort of more directed style of meditation,

of just watching the breath or something like that. And I remember thinking, this is crazy. And initially, really, my mind was rebelling against it. And I was remembering how, when I tap my son sometimes, when we're on a swing, he flies out and then he comes back and usually farts in my face. And so that was the way the waking up was going for me. I would notice that I would ask myself, are you aware? And then I would wake up a half hour later

after having written a chapter for a book or written some gloriously positive Amazon reviews of past books for myself, whatever embarrassing little rumination was going on. And I would wake up in a lot of self-laceration, et cetera, but over time, I really responded to this relaxed style. And I was able, after a few days, to build up some awareness.

Did I say anything there that deserves clarification or response? No, I just brought some things up to my next thing. Yeah, I just help all the always here you describe the Dan experience of reality. We all experience reality differently. And so it was a delight to be on a tree with you. And I'm here, your version of pushing the swing and having farts land into your face.

You know, and it actually reminded me a little bit as to, in some ways, why side of Uteshenia emphasized more the attitude and the mind than the object. And one of the reasons why he was doing that was oftentimes he was working with meditators who were arriving at the center so tight tight and tense and striving, and feeling like they weren't really progressing in their practice. So one of the questions I'd all sometimes ask people, you know, how long have you been practicing, and they might say, well, three or four years, but what they would often mean is that I would practice 15 minutes in the morning, maybe 30 minutes in the evening

and then he would just do the math with him, like how many hours are you awake in the day? How many hours are you being mindful? And then how many hours are you not being mindful? And obviously, when you just count those very formal periods of sitting down and practicing, that's a very small fraction of what is getting developed, moment by moment, during the day. So if we want to develop our meditation practice, so that it feels available. And not just something we do on retreat because a retreat is set up specifically to provide all of the conditions for deepening in awareness

in wise view, like the views that we bring to mind that help us to see reality more clearly. So for example, that everything is changing, things are natural processes. So those messages, the environment, the fact that everyone else looks very meditative and enlightened, so it's kind of reminding us, oh, right, I should be doing better than I am or whatever it is our mind produces. Then the retreat ends if you are fortunate enough to go on a retreat, and you're left then with your own mind and your own life. And I'd say most people really have a hard time with understanding how to internalize practice

so that it truly does bring day by day benefit and day by day progress. And so that's where the more we hear that awareness is available, that we can learn from any experience, we don't have to be getting back to some other experience that's calmer. We can be in the midst of our overwhelm, our chaos, our mourning, if we've lost someone,

our joys, any experience increasingly can be the basis for another moment of awareness. So as we develop momentum, it's like the strength of the radar, of awareness. At first, it just goes to one object and that's fine. We go to the breath, go to the sensation. But over time it's as if the radar of awareness itself gets stronger and stronger and it receives experience. As that momentum of awareness gets fully established and this is just the nature of awareness. If you keep allowing it to get developed in a natural way. So it's not tiring.

You can keep going. You put in these little reminders during the day. At some point, this momentum starts to go along on its own momentum. So for example, pick your own habit of mind that you're not that happy with. It could be a lot of anger or self-worth, stories in the mind, anxieties, worries. All of these we could say are habits,

and the reason why they keep surfacing is because in a way we've practiced them. By moment and many moments in our life, this mental energy has a risen. Let's say anxiety, it's a risen, but without awareness and without wisdom. So this is where we can see the power of momentum. We don't need to stop these energies, but the more we direct, a little bit of our mental energy towards what's skillful, what's helpful, like awareness, like wisdom, that begins to gain momentum. There's one analogy that I had shared with

you because there was a light switch sitting right next to me when I was discussing practice with you and your friends on that retreat. And usually the light switch of awareness, let's say from most everyone, the light switch of awareness is off. That's the default setting. Then we check and remember, oh, right, I'm hearing right now, or I know that I'm sitting or standing. That's a moment of putting the light switch on,

and it's remarkable, few moments later, click, it goes back off to its default. Now, the more times we do that little bit of checking is where and is present, we don't have to be striving with a lot of energy and in fact in a way the more relaxed we do it, the more available it feels. Right? Because we're not straining and we're just using a light energy of like tapping this wing or hitting the light switch. At some point that light switch will stay on more than it switches off. So that's the nature of momentum, the momentum of awareness,

and that truly is possible in daily life. You know, and I think one of the challenges that we set to much associate awareness with sitting still, eyes closed, or calm. Like all those are kind of, we think that is being meditative. But actually, really meditation is am I developing a skillful state of mind right now? And we can do that even when we are in a midst of conversation or even when we're reacting negatively. But by watching, we're now beginning to also develop awareness and insight into the suffering nature of that reaction. That's what we need to do. If we can keep getting interested in the experiences that we're having, it sort of opens up the possibility

of what we consider our path, our practice. And it's not just taking time to be more secluded, which is a great foundation and should not be abandoned. In any way, and take as much time as you have and are interested in, you know, those more formal periods also. Just to clarify, I mean, you made a nod to this, which I appreciated. There are a lot of people listening to this show who have never been and may never go

on retreat, which is totally fine. And I believe what you were saying is this style of practice is available to you and perhaps very powerful, no matter what dosage of meditation you're at. So even if you're doing 10, 15 minutes a day of meditation, just start tapping the swing through the rest of your life of asking yourself a little question, am I aware? Sometimes throw in the question, you know, so what's the attitude in my mind right now? Is there pervaded by dot, you know, wanting or not wanting. You can start moving toward a life where the light switch is on more than it's off.

Absolutely. And I really do think just hearing the message that it's possible in daily life, in the midst of raising kids, paying bills, you know, working and engaging and enjoying even and whatever it is, there is nothing about the experience itself that precludes being aware. And in fact, the more the understanding develops that any experience can either pull us in and we can get lost in it or it can be the very basis of waking us up. So for example, a lot of people never develop much skill around seeing. So if you're sighted, you open the eyes up in the morning, spend a whole day, the eyes moving around, taking in things that we're seeing and navigating and having views and opinions about and getting stressed or resonating with or whatever it is.

And yet, so often, almost entirely, it pulls us into, right, we get absorbed into the story of it, the experience of it. So developing a little bit of interest and skill with being aware of seeing really can be a radical change and it doesn't need to be anything esoteric, like aware of seeing. It's simply to recognize, just like we did with hearing, that seeing is happening. Seeing is already happening, but adding in that little bit of a light touch, oh right, now that I've mentioned seeing, maybe you're more aware that seeing is happening. Before that, let's say when we're not aware, we could say in an effect, Moha is at that eye door. Moha is delusion. So one form of delusion is not clearly knowing

something as it is. So just seeing everyone sees if they have the working eye door, what makes someone actually meditating in that moment is developing an awareness of that function that's simply happening. And a number of positive benefits that come from that, I mean, awareness itself is such a wholesome state of mind. But the more we start to observe the functioning of this body and mind process, the more we begin to understand the nature of what this experience truly is about and how much we live our lives clinging and grasping onto what ultimately are just changing processes that when we allow them to be as they are. There's a greater clarity and ease to live in the midst of the whole range of pleasant and unpleasant experiences. But unaware, the mind typically is triggered by

wanting what is pleasant and not wanting what is unpleasant. And those both stand on being so identified with the experience that we're having, that is we feel there's no other choice other than to try and decimate or kill or get rid of anything that we don't like, right, or to desperately hold on to the things that we do like. And yet reality is always going to simply be a changing set of conditions. So that is part of our challenge. If we're interested in it, it is to understand how to live more skillfully, aligned with the way things are. And that's what meditation really offers us. Let me just take a stab at repeating that back too, because I think this is a key point. This practice isn't just about awareness for the sake of awareness, although of course,

as you said, being awake and aware is likely to be a happier existence than being stuck in the fog of unawareness and delusion. But when the lights which is more on than it is off or more on than it used to be, you can start to see some really useful things including the fact that everything's changing all the time and that when you grasp on the things that are changing all the time that can produce suffering. And once you start to see these non-negotiable laws of the universe,

you can reorient the way you move through reality, which is that you can slowly, slowly bit by bit, get a little bit better at not grasping, not clinging. And that is a huge accelerator torch, a more happy, common, peaceful life. Well said. Yes. That's right. Is that what I just described? You keep using the word wisdom. Did I just describe wisdom? Yes, I really do think it's an elusive term. You know, aside all the way, he would describe it is, he would lay out three yogi jobs, meaning three jobs a meditator can do. The first one is have right view, which is have wisdom.

And in the beginning wisdom means an intellectual way of looking at experience. So you might just remind yourself that whatever is happening is a process. It's something that's arising out of conditions. Some cause and effect process, every moment, right, is some cause and effect process. And we can be aware of it, whether it's hearing or seeing or feelings and emotions in the body, mental activity. It's a process that we can be aware of, rather than the self-view, which triggers, I want it to be different, I want it to be a certain way. So with that right view, we remember, oh, even anger and frustration is a rising out of

nature, out of some causes. So it helps to have the right attitude when we remember to bring in this wisdom, meaning right view. So just to name these three yoga jobs, since I mentioned them, the three jobs of a meditator, he really said these in order to make practice very simple, because oftentimes we do too much. But he would say, have right view. So see things as nature, check to see if awareness is present, and then develop continuity, which would mean really practice with a light effort so that you're not getting tired by your practice. So just emphasizing the importance of continuity.

So right view, aware, and continuity. And leaving it very simple, because so often we're experiencing things and we kind of think we should be doing more. And anytime for me personally that I was really struggling and I would sort of check in and so often I didn't have right view which would lead to some kind of attitude where I was really struggling, pushing tense. So those very simple bookmarks can be helpful to just check and see, you know, how am I practicing, particularly when you're struggling or not sure what to do. So if somebody's listening to this and saying, oh, yeah, whatever amount of practice I do

every day or daily-ish, I want to experiment with this style, these instructions. Are those the basic instructions for day-to-day practice? You know, have right view. In other words, to see that whatever's happening in your mind isn't you per se, it's the result of causes in personal causes and conditions. It's just nature, check to see if you're aware, and then continue way it's reminder that the moments is always changing, and it's so easy to just kind of drift again, and then simply return. All right, just continue, continue lightly in having some confidence that that will gain momentum. I mean, these aren't really from side all this is in some ways what the Buddha was teaching,

which is have right view, meaning there is a cause and effect process. There is suffering and the ending of suffering. And there is a path that we can travel down. And this particular flavor is emphasizing just bringing in putting up front the reminder to see experience as nature because our default is going to be seeing it through preference and through identification. We're going to judge the unpleasant or or cling to the pleasant. So reminding ourselves that it's nature and then just to be aware and then that of course leads onward. ourselves at its nature and then just to be aware. And then that of course leads onward. And leading onward means as we develop more wisdom, as awareness gains more strength and capacity to receive, then you can learn more and more about even subtle movements of the mind, little judgments, these little energies that we discover in places that we would otherwise just be in the experience and not realizing that we're always being in a way that's a puppeteer in the background pulling the strings and oftentimes this puppeteer is not particularly kind or skillful. So we want to see that and get interested in those habits as well, the subtle ones.

Much more of my conversation with Alexis Santos right after this. ones. Much more of my conversation with Alexis Santos right after this. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke and we're the hosts of Wundery's podcast Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Ru goes out searching for love and acceptance. But the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Ru off course.

In our series RuPaul Bornnaked, we'll show you how RuPaul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers. Opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere. Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. I wanted to touch on that point that you made early on about the, you're joking about how the retreat schedule was wide open on the retreat that I was leading with you.

And oftentimes there's this little bit of a feeling of like, this is in a serious retreat like this is just camp, you know, it's too light, it's too easy. And yet the insights that one gets when you're allowing conditions to be more natural, and you're not controlling as much, but you are just as interested in awareness. You know, there's a lot there to see, and when the schedule is more open, let's say it's more, at times approximating our own life, meaning we're choosing, even though in our daily life, maybe oftentimes we don't get to choose. But bringing awareness to all of those subtle movements, we can see how much of our life is directed by some kind of wanting. I want to get up, I want

to go here, I want to go there. And we would miss gaining insight or seeing directly those aspects or those habits because we're so busy doing. And so sometimes having a little bit more of an open container invites us into being all the C habits that we're would otherwise miss. Well, it was incredible for me on that retreat was that I guess I definitely had the attitude of this isn't a real retreat, this is camp, this is BS. And then so on top of having doubts provoked by this being different from things that I had done before, I was also as you will recall in the middle of a huge real estate crisis that my wife and I had left the city during the pandemic.

We were renting a house. we were trying to buy another house and that purchase of buying the house that we're living in now was getting very, very complicated. And so I actually had to spend, and not in significant amount of many of the days on retreat, all in the phone with my wife and lawyers and real estate agents, it was incredibly stressful. So I was just like, this is ruined.

But because I'm such a type A person, I was trying to just, no matter what I was doing, if I even if I was on the phone, trying to figure something out with a real estate lawyer or a mortgage broker or whatever, I was just trying to ask myself, am I aware? Am I aware? Just kept doing it, pushing the swing,

and then when I wasn't embroiled in real estate, Michigan Goss, I would practice formally and informally. I took advantage of they're not being a schedule. I did. I sat as long as I felt like sitting and then I took a long walk, since it has a light on on the ground and just kept pushing the swing. And I was shocked a few days into it when I, I, the light switch was all of a sudden on way more than it was off. I was, I was awake and aware and I felt like I had felt on quote unquote normal retreats. And this, again, I'm very sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people listening who may never go on retreat and they may just be practicing 5, 10, 15 minutes a day or some days. This is a thing you can do in your daily life.

And it's the best of my ability. I try to do it in my daily life. I'm not as aware as I am on retreat where I'm being more deliberate about it. I'm embarrassed to admit, but it is scalable, this approach. And one other thing I just want to say to the sort of rank and file meditator out there who may never do a retreat is, you know, if you're thinking about trying this as your daily or daily-ish meditation practice or just experimenting with it, it is definitely true that the more open, undirected, what am I aware of, style rather than, look, I'm going to pick the breath

and stay on that. It's easier to get lost. And so you may want to play with doing a period of directed awareness where you're with the breath for a few minutes and then open up and then go back to the breath. So would you agree with that recommendation I made at the end there, Alexis? Sure. And really, whatever works and whatever you find interesting, because if you find meditation interesting, if you start to feel the benefit and you really recognize it is beneficial. I really do want to suffer less and

I really do want to live more skillfully. I personally haven't found anything more supportive than bringing these practices into whatever moment I can. We're working with the very deep structures of the mind, deep habits, our personality, you know, but the momentum of our life and our identity is a lot less fixed than we might assume it to be, you know, we often just sort of say, well, that's the way I am. And well, the way we are is simply just momentum of the mind arising in a certain way, again and again, and then there's ruts. So if we allow other ruts to get formed and we call skillful ruts as we allow those to deepen those become the places from which we begin experiencing life.

Right. And those would be the ruts of awareness, you know, of more and more understanding, more skill in being with the wide range of experiences that were bound to experience, right, in our living process. And life really does become very interesting, and one of the things that I always loved studying with Saita Uteshenia is his very deep emphasis and commitment to daily life practice. Even though he ended up as a monk and his teacher asked him to stay in the robes before he died, so he decided to do that. He was married and had a kid and all of the insights that he ever talks about their insights that he had when he was a layperson. He talks about being in the busy marketplace or in his depressive cycles, in his 20s and 30s and the various things that he was going through in just daily living.

And so it gives a lot of confidence whenever I'd hear him talk about it, you know, something that he understood and it wasn't from kind of for treating deep into a meditative zone. It was actually being present with exactly the conditions of his life and getting interested in the difference between allowing and resisting, wanting, judging versus being aware, receiving, and learning from, being very interested in how the mind gets caught into struggle around experience. And then what happens as there's some understanding and the difference. And so when he, you know, really talks about the benefit of awareness, he He describes himself as kind of the nair du well of a large family who had went through stages of depression, drug use, got quite, had a really problematic relationship to drugs for when he was young.

I kept getting sent away to this monk that his dad was friends with, he used to practice meditation with. The monk you've referenced was Shwaiu Min Sayoda. And this great meditation master, Shwaiu Min, took him under his wing or his robe and really was very patient with him, even though he would continuously get sent away to the monastery to study with Shwaiu Min and then go back to his life either to school

or working for his dad in the busy marketplace and then inevitably screw up again and go back to using drugs, either to school or working for his dad in the busy marketplace, and then inevitably screw up again and go back to using drugs or hanging around with the bad people and then get set back to the monastery and this monk was very patient with him. So I must have seen something in him. And eventually, Sai Dho Tajini, it became a sort of adept and a great teacher.

And as I understand it, it's still a pretty quirky guy. What's it like to study with him one-on-one? He's an interesting guy. You know, I just go back to what you said about Shreemann, maybe seeing something in him. And I think part of what he saw in Saita Uteshenia was a, this guy who's definitely was struggling with life and suffering a lot and finding all kinds

of ways to suffer, which we are all very inventive around doing somehow. Even though it's so unpleasant, we find lots of ways to suffer. Zyda, Utesania himself would, you know, often said that he would either without meditation, he would have, he would have ended up in jail or totally addicted to drugs or dead, prematurely dead. And so he really made use of the practice. And I think part of that was because he really lived life at large and made a lot of unskilledful choices. I think just to name part of his personality, there's a lot of water buffalo in Burma. Water buffalo do exactly what they're going to do, but they're just, if they're in the

mud and they walk and they defecate where they are. They're not trying to beautify how they come across. They're just water buffalo. And the more I hung out with Saita, his being exactly how he is was such an invitation to not be manipulating, not be controlling, but to really be with conditions as they are. And so that's part of the really, the encouragement in the Dhamma in general, but Utejaniya very skilled at encouraging that kind of flavor of practice from people, because so often, whatever we do, we come in with a lot of judgments, we try and do it better,

we don't feel like we're doing it enough. And all of those really are just habits that we can also begin to notice and over time become more skillful in actually allowing them as well to be there. And it's so relaxing and peaceful. It was almost like the very first time in my life where I had truly been allowed to be just as I am. I didn't have to be any different. It didn't mean I wasn't going to change. I didn't have a lot that needed seeing, right, and letting go of. But in the moment, the

imitation is you can be just as you are and be aware. So powerful, so powerful, so healing, full of love, right? And yet it's not easy to do and we often need to be reminded of the possibility. It's a great place to leave it. If people want to find more information about you, where can we get more Alexis? Well there is the app, Dan, that is out there. Temptson Happier. And then I actually do try and support people in their home practice.

So that's on my website. Just search. If you search my name, Alexis Santos, you either I think come up with a boxer or someone else. And that other person is me. So the meditation teacher, but AlexisSantos.io, if you wanna practice together sometimes. My friend, thank you very much for coming on the show.

Really great job. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Dan, for having me. Thank you to Alexis, consider myself lucky to be his friend. Before we head out, one last plug for the Ted Lasso Challenge, which will teach you how to practice kindness in your life, including to yourself. You can still join the challenge untilso Challenge, which will teach you how to practice kindness in your life, including to yourself. You can still join the challenge until midnight tonight, September 8th, download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps

to join. If you're listening later and can no longer join the challenge, I might suggest that you go check out season two of Ted Lasso, which airs on Apple TV+. It's a hilarious show. The show is made by Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justin Davie, Maria Wartell, and Jen Poehont with Audio Engineering by Ultraviolet Audio. As always, a hardy salute to my ABC News comrades Ryan Kester and Josh Cohen. We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus.

see you all on Friday for a bonus. tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.