Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 385: The Awesome Power of "Touchy-Feely" | Carole Robin and David Bradford

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

We talk a lot on this show about social connection, but in this episode we’re going to get super granular on how to actually do relationships better.Carole Robin and David Bradford taught the most popular elective course at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for a combined total of 75 years. Officially, the name of the course is Interpersonal Dynamics, but everybody calls it “Touchy-Feely.” Together they have written the new book, Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues.We dive into the six hallmarks of what they call “exceptional relationships,” how to be honest and vulnerable without overdoing it, why the questions “how am I feeling?” and “how are you feeling?” are central to improving our communication, the inevitability of risk when you set out to deepen a relationship, and why meditation is helpful in all of this.Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/installFull Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/carole-robin-david-bradford-385See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, hello, we talk a lot on this show about social connection. But my guests today are going to get super granular on how to actually do relationships better. Carol Robin and David Bradford taught the most popular elective course at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for a combined total of 75 years. Officially, the name of the course is interpersonal dynamics, but everybody affectionately calls it touchy-feely.

We cover a lot of fascinating ground here, including the six hallmarks of what they call exceptional relationships, how to handle conflict well, how to be honest and vulnerable without overdoing it. Why the questions, how am I feeling and how are you feeling, are central to improving our communication, the inevitability of risk when you set out to deepen any relationship, how to connect across lines of difference, including race and gender, why it's possible to have deep relationships with a much broader range of people than you might have imagined, how to give and receive feedback, navigating power or differentials, and why meditation is helpful in all of this.

David is the Eugene D. O'Kelly, the second senior lecturer in leadership emeritus at the Stanford Graduate School of Business Carol is the former Dorothy J. King lecturer in leadership at Stanford. Together, they have written a new book called Connect, Building Exceptional Relationships with Family Friends and Colleagues. So if after hearing this episode, you want to learn more from Carol about exactly how to do relationships better.

You can check out her teacher talk, which is called mastering the soft stuff is hard. Just download the 10% happier app today, click on the podcast tab, and then click on teacher talks to find Carol's talk. We'll get started with David Bradford and Carol Robin right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral. Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our

healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelli McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm all one word spelled out Okay on with the show Hey y'all is your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress singer and entrepreneur on my new podcast Baby this is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends family and experts the questions that are in my head like it's only fans only bad Where did memes come from and where's Tom from my space? Listen to baby. This is Kiki Palmer on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcast

Carol Robin David Bradford welcome to the show good to be here. Thanks dear. Carol, start with you. What is Touchy Feely? Well, it's the affectionate term used by students at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for a course that David and I were very involved in for many years called Interpersonal Dynamics. That's the name of the course. And the students affectionately call it touchy-feely, partly because we place such an emphasis on the use of feelings in being more interpersonally competent and building relationships, which is what we've dedicated our lives to helping people learn how to do and have now written a book about.

So David, this students affectionately call it Tashi Fili sort of a mild mocking. And yet, as I understand it, it's a very popular course. Absolutely. Yes, I'm not sure they're not eating it. I think it's sort of a more affectionate, as Carol was saying, identification. So they say to each other, are you taking touchy-feele next term? And it's a sort of a way to convey their interest and involvement. Staying with you for a second, David, what's the point of the course? The point of the course is to help students

develop the competencies, to build more open, authentic relationships, not just with the other students in their section, in their group, but also afterwards. And one of the things we're excited about is not only the impact it has on students, but reports we hear from alumni of them using a decades later on their job and their marriage with friends and so on. So it's a course that has lasting power, and that's the excitement for us. Yeah, I mean, I get excited when I hear you talk,

and I would imagine the question that I'm about to ask is when you must feel reasonably frequently, which is, why is this just being taught at Stanford Business School? This feels like this kind of interpersonal hygiene or, you know, 101 of human interaction should be taught in every elementary school, planet-wide. Carol, do you agree or disagree? First of all, could not agree with you more, just like every child should be talked to meditate, in my opinion.

And in fact, the way we got talked into writing the book was that our editor said, how come the only people who get to learn this are those that are privileged and lucky enough to go to Stanford Graduate School of Business? And we said, well, it's very hard stuff to learn in a book. You actually have to do it. You can't just read about it. And that's why it took us four years to write a book so that we could do justice to the work. And I think that you're absolutely right.

That our dream for the book is that the book creates momentum for this being taught in many, many, many more places and learned by many, many, more people. And if I could add to that, it is taught in other schools. It's taught at Yale, UCLA, other places, but not as intensively as it is at Stanford. And one of the reasons why is that this requires special competencies and teaching it. It's not just knowing the conceptual material of interpersonal relations. You've got to do it yourself.

And not many faculty have the sort of training in how to teach this at Carol and I, and a few others have. But that strikes me as a huge problem. I mean, just a quick anecdote here. I may have said this on the show before, so if I have, I apologize. But a couple of years ago, my wife and I went and did some couples counseling, side note to the side note. I feel this compulsion to add, we weren't having some big marital difficulties.

We were kind of doing it for hygiene reasons. There we go with that word again. But the side note to the side note is that I feel like the stink that couples counseling has on it needs to be totally ignored because it's an incredibly useful thing to do for your relationship. And one of the things that our therapist said to us that I always stuck with me, his name is Michael Vincent Miller by the way, brilliant guy, He said, nobody teaches us how to do relationships. And he was talking about romantic relationships.

He's absolutely right about that. Our teachers there, our parents, often deeply flawed humans, well, all humans are. And the movies, which is, you know, don't get me started. There's a lot that happens after the, you complete me stage of relationships. But he was not only right about romantic relationships. He's right about, nobody teaches us how to interact with the barista either. I mean, like the whole range of

human interactions, we're just making it up as we go. And often, I think, well, I'll speak from personal experience, often, in my case, not very well. Well, first of all, I want to connect a few things that you've just said, which is it's hard to teach if you don't model it. a few things that you've just said, which is, it's hard to teach if you don't model it. So, we have to start by modeling what we believe creates connection. That begins with vulnerability, and a willingness to allow ourselves to be known and seen, which, by the way, most faculty in most academic institutions of higher learning, especially if they're elite, is the very unlikely way that they're going to show up.

So you just talked about how do we learn about relationships? We learn from watching. And for me personally, when I started in business, because I'm not a career academic, when I started in business, the first thing a career academic, when I started in business, the first thing I learned was whatever you do, leave your feelings at the door. There is no place in business for feelings. And then I discovered that it's pretty hard to

motivate people and inspire people at much less be seen as a human being in the absence of speaking about feelings. But I learned that the hard way and it wasn't because it was modeled to me. So back to what David just said, you know, it takes investment and even more than that experimentation. A willingness to be curious about yourself and about others, that's why it has such great overlap with mindfulness, and willingness to think, well, I wonder if I tell you a little bit more about me, whether you'll be a little more open to telling me a little more about you. And that might be the beginning, including with the barista. You know, I was at a Starbucks the other day and I said to the barista, so how are you today?

And she said, fine. And I said, just fine. What's making it fine? I don't think anybody had even asked her, something like that, ever. And I said, you know, fine has a big gradient. How'd that go down? It was great. She said, well, actually, I'm good.

I said, oh, wonderful. So your fine was good. What's making your day good? Well, I'm good. I said, oh, wonderful. So your fine was good. What's making your day good? Well, I got to come in late, which meant I got to see my daughter before I left today and it was so much fun and we played and it was a great way to start the day. I was like, well, thank you for sharing that with me.

And then she said, what about you? How's your day? It's not rocket science, but by the way, I said it's not rocket science once when I was doing a workshop for a bunch of people at NASA. But to the management team at NASA and they said, oh, God, Carol, this is so much harder than rocket science. I once, uh, cartoon, I was hanging in an edit room at a TV station in the newsroom and it had two scientists talking to each other and they looked at each other and one turned to the other and said, I mean, it's not television news. But back to the barista, not everybody would like it if you gave them the third degree

while you're ordering your latte or whatever it is you and vibe. That's true. And David, you might want to talk about, that's why we talk about two antenna and we could call this interpersonal mindfulness, not just interpersonal dynamics. You want to talk about why we talk about two antenna, David? Yeah, is that every relationship is different. We don't teach a set way to do it. We teach a way on how you can find out what works for you and works for the other person. So the two antennae that Carol was referring to is one is being aware of yourself.

What are my needs? What do I want? And then being aware of the other person. What's their reaction? So when Carol told that story, the barista responded, it sounds like, and Carol picked up the cue that she could go further. So she wasn't a sensitive to irrigating her. Now, my guess is, if knowing Carol and her competencies,

if the barista would have said, I have a fight, okay, now what do you want in your drink? Carol would have dropped it. So we need to have both of those sensitivities and you were saying before this should all of this should be taught and that's what the course teaches. The course teaches students to be more aware themselves in touch with their feelings, knowing how to raise issues that are not attacking or accusatory or too imposing, and how to pick up cues from the other person so that you can build the relationship you want with each person and that'll be different with each person. How do you teach this?

Well, that's the exciting part about the course. So people say, well, what sort of exercises, what sort of cases do you use, what sort of simulations? And the wonderful thing about this course is we don't have to do any of that. The students are in 12 person groups that meet over 10 weeks and their job is to look at their interactions with each other and get feedback from their peers. And what we do is we build a vacuum. We don't give the agenda. There's not a leader.

Their task is to build a learning group, which isn't a very useful assignment. And then they struggle. And one person initiates something, rams it down, other people's throat, other person has a reaction, gives them feedback, and we're often running. So it's very much what we say here and now learning. Here is how I'm reacting to your behavior. Right here in the present, and it's very powerful, it's very personal, and it's very affirming. Because as Carol was saying, as we show more of ourselves, it turns out that who we really are is usually much more attractive, influential, than who we pretend to be.

Just so I'm clear on this, so you create these 12 person groups and you give them a task. Nope. And then, okay. What we do is we tell them we are deliberately not giving you a task other than to build a learning laboratory. What does that even mean? Well, that's the first thing they say. Okay.

And we say, you each have some goals. They've all come into the class with, you know, my goal every time I do one of these groups is to not suck all the oxygen out of the room and leave space for other people to talk. Someone else has a goal to initiate more and be more spontaneous. Isn't it great if we both find ourselves in the same group

because I can't work on mine unless they work on theirs? So we drop them in, we give them note task and they're silenced and the carols of the world are like, well, why don't we all go around and introduce each other? And the other people are like, well, who the heck appointed you leader? And then we're off to the races, as David said. So you give them a deliberately opaque and big-us non-project, non-task, and you let them

hash it out. Right. That's exactly right. You see, what it is, every group needs to have leadership functions fulfilled, needs to have an agenda, and needs to have rules of procedures. We take those all away. We create a vacuum. And as nature reports a vacuum, so do human beings. And then what comes out is what Carol just described. And that is real behavior. If we had a simulation, they'd be playing a role. Now they're coming in as

themselves. And that's what's so real and so powerful about it. And let's take that example just a little further down just to be clear. So I suggest let's go around. There's a few people who don't say anything, but they don't like the idea, but they don't say anything. And then people start introducing each other in about four or five people later. You can't even remember what the first person said and your board. Now you've got a choice. You have a choice to recognize, become aware that you're bored or irritated or whatever. And then you can decide to experiment with saying something. Gee, you know, I'm afraid to say this because I don't know how you're all going

to feel about me, but I'm kind of bored. And then four of the people say, wow, thank you so much for saying that. And it's all real-time dynamics and we're all getting to know each other very well, very quickly, the real us. But is there coaching or some sort of pedagogy that leads into this so that people understand how to do vulnerability correctly and we'll talk about that or how to develop these two and 10i that we all have but might not be aware of? Well, there's a facilitator in each group. Okay. But the facilitator doesn't teach them, but ask questions. So I'm going to carry on the scenario that Carol started to build. So somebody comes in and says, well, I'm getting bored with this.

And the person who initiates it says, well, if you've got a better idea, what the hell is it? And the person who interrupted said, what's the rule around here that I have a better idea? The person who interrupted said, what's the rule around here that I have a better idea? You see, they're involved. The facilitator is likely to say to the first person, how are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling that I tried. Well, that's not a feeling.

What are you feeling? I'm feeling annoyed that I got corrected. And the other person who interrupted said, well, I'm feeling annoyed that you did this without checking with us. So they are learning that sharing their feelings, which is why the course is called Touchy Feeling by the students. They start to learn that's how we can communicate. That's how we can know each other, what we want and what we don't want. So they learn from their experience.

So when Carol said the assignment is to build a laboratory learning and you were appropriately puzzled, this is the laboratory where they are discovering what sort of interaction works and what sort doesn't work. They learn from their experience. And you see what's powerful about that is that they can take that competency out of the group in later years. We have experiences all the time, rarely do we learn from them, but our students learn how to learn from all the experiences they have. And that's why the course continues

after the term is over. Because every interaction is a moment to gather data about how you're feeling and how other people are feeling in the responses you have internally and externally to whatever moves you make. And so it sounds like the main skill you're teaching them is just to open up the data entry center instead of just moving through life as if every new interaction is a blank slate, you're constantly learning from every interaction so that you get better as you go. Exactly. We couldn't have said it better ourselves. Every interaction with another human being is an opportunity to learn not only about them, but about yourself. Carol, you invoked the word mindfulness, I think you called it interpersonal mindfulness,

where I come from, meaning Buddhism, we meditate in order to learn how to be more aware of what's happening internally and externally and both internally and externally. How do you teach people to develop interpersonal mindfulness in your course and in your book? It's through practice in the same way that we learn to become more and more aware of our internal states through meditation. So it's in the doing. We're back to why it was so challenging to write a book.

So I have an exchange with David. And first, I learn to maybe take a moment and notice what's going on for me and notice what's going on for him. Instead of just, I'm just gonna barrel along. And it only takes a moment. And we also establish a relationship where, if I am barreling along, he can say, oh done. You left me back here.

Can we take you back a few steps? Those are almost mechanics. Those are skills. Those are competencies. And one of the great things about the group process that David was just talking about and that we encourage people to do in the book is that I believe I heard one thing and you believe you said something else.

And isn't it great to have somebody else to both help you, but even if you don't have somebody else, for me to say, perfect example, I come into the kitchen, I tell my husband, can I help you with that? He hears, you don't know what you're doing. And it wasn't until we both realized that what I was saying wasn't what he was hearing, that we could resolve the pinch that arose from that. These are all techniques, these are all tools, we call those pinches. By the way, if you address something small,

when it just bothered you, then it annoyed you a little bit, your likelihood of that not turning into a big kaboom conflict is higher. So there are all kinds of ways in which we learn to be more interpersonally mindful and therefore competent. And if I can add to that one of the keys that we can't stress enough is we urge people to, and we constantly say, what are you feeling? What are you feeling? Right here, right now.

Right here, right now, and many people aren't aware aware which is why in the appendix of the book we have a long list of emotions and we have a handout for the students and they look down and they say I'm feeling anxious. That in essence is a way to become mindful about what's going on with me picking up on the example of Carol and I interacting. If she's coming in like a Sherman tank, I could say, not only, hey, wait a minute, but I could say, hey, what's going on with you? And so I want to know her feelings. And she may say, well, I'm really impatient because we haven't resolved this and we've come back to it a second time.

And so now I know her feelings. So the mindfulness is within me and it's a sensitivity to find out what's in the other one. And I sort of tell facilitators, there's only two or three comments you need to make. And the key one is, you ask people, what are you feeling? And the other one says, well, I'm annoyed. And the second comment is, who are you annoying about? And what are they doing? It's in a certain sense, very simple. But we are so educated, we complicate up the interactions and have to have logical reasons. Where if we stick with our feelings, it's much more intimate, makes stronger connections, allows us to be known, allows us to know the other.

Just to repeat that back to you, so I've got it. You're essentially recommending that we have this mantra, both internally and externally, of how are you feeling? The way to develop the aforementioned two antennae would be to get into the habit of regularly just asking yourself how am I feeling, so you know, and then asking other people while you're in conversation with them. Yeah. Which, by the way, is curiosity, which is the other reason I invoke mindfulness. Oh, how am I feeling? And then how are you feeling?

You're absolutely right. And then let that inform my choices in terms of where I go next. I've been taking your course, but I've done some work in this sphere, broadly speaking, some mindful communication, things like that. Do you ever feel like just having a quote unquote normal conversation where you're not checking on your feelings or anybody else's feelings and you're not doing reflective listening

or whatever, just like quick moment of transaction, there's no feelings, no touchy feeling, this whatsoever. Do you ever just like not want to just drop all of this stuff? I'm asking for a friend. Yeah, I think most of our interactions, it comes naturally. But if I'm aware of myself and I'm feeling this annoying inside of me, I'm going to want to listen to that. If I'm noticing this interaction, the other person's frowning or seems to be holding back or has an edge to their tone, then I'm going to try and be aware. I think the other thing is that what are the effects of this is I get tired with superficial conversations. I can only take

a couple of minutes of it. And then I want to have things a little more meaningful. And notice with Carol's example, with a barista, a person she hadn't met before, she for 30 seconds had a more meaningful conversation. And one of the real advantages I find without this becoming deep or heavy, that I can take many conversations and make it a little more meaningful, a little more connecting, and a little more full of learning for me and the other.

But you don't feel like you need to be constantly on your game, constantly checking in with yourself and other people that have this sort of immaculate communication style. Like once in a while you can say, hey, just give, can you please pass me the fork? Yeah, it's true. And there are many times, there are times in which I don't do it what I should. And even my wife nodded frequently has said, you teach this stuff. Why don't you do it?

So we're all human. But when you have taken this course, and hopefully when you read the book, you have this in your backpack. And when things start to go wrong, and then I can say, oh, sorry, hun. I guess I was pretty insensitive. Now, will you say again what you were wanting to say? And we could recover. So you don't have to be perfect. You just have to be willing to take the risk and to recover. And that's part of what our students learn and what's in the book. And I do want to add that it isn't just when things have gone wrong.

It's when things feel flat or when you want more. So back to your original question, it would be exhausting. It would be the equivalent of going and spending a year in a mountain top and Nepal and doing nothing but meditating. You know, I can't imagine doing that personally. I admire people who have. And that's not what we're advocating. But what we are advocating is that if you've got more tools, as David just said, if you've got more in your backpack, you can move your relationships

along a continuum from contact with no connection or dysfunction to maybe functional and robust to Exceptional and meaningful that's the essence of the book. How do you move your relationships to the extent you both want to Along this continuum at least you have a choice More of my conversation with Carol Robin and David Bradford read after this. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke. And where the hosts of Wunderys Podcasts even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most

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Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. You've made several references during this conversation to the challenge of turning this course into a book. I want to try to kind of extract from you some, this is always my agenda as an interviewer, to extract from you some things that listeners can do in their lives now. And you've already given us one with the mantra of how do I feel, how do you feel. What are some of the other practical tips they provide in the book that we can do without being students at Stanford?

Okay, let me put that within a framework. What we found is there are six characteristics in building a relationship along that continuum. And those six give you clues. So the first one is, can I let you know more about myself? So what we encourage in the book is pick a person, a friend, that you want a deeper relationship. Is there something about yourself that's relevant to that relationship that you haven't shared. Well, that's easy to do, but it may be a little risky. The second dimension is, could you build conditions where the other person could be more themselves? So, as Carol said, can I be curious?

Can I say, G-Dan, how have you used meditation to have a more meaningful relationship with your partner? The third one is, can that build a trust so that when I share things about myself, what I'm worried about, what I'm concerned about, Carol won't use that against me and won't play Gacha? Fourth one is, so a clue is, am I afraid with this relationship to share something? Do they do something that gets me a little worried? The fourth one is, can we be honest? And not hold back. Are the things that are relevant to our interaction that I haven't shared?

These are all tips. The fifth one is, can we lead into disagreements and conflict? Am I sitting on something in my relationship with Carol, which I consider an exceptional one, is she doing something that might be bothering me? Have I held back on that? Do I want to take the risk of saying, hey, Carol, it's a little hard, but I want to raise this. And I think the final one is, It's a little hard, but I want to raise this. And I think the final one is, can I help the other person grow and develop? You see, we hold all sorts of information about what the other person does well and doesn't do so well. But we rarely say it.

Can I, because I deeply care about Carol, say, Carol, would you do X? I think you limit yourself. I think that's an act of kindness. And he has. And she has to. So you see, those are all tips, but they all come from the basic model of the process of building a relationship. It's a process of learning. You have to do it in order to learn. Let me dig in on those. And just before I do, put a fine point on it. You both use this term exceptional relationship. That is a key term in your schema, you know, in your system.

And you, David, just listed what you call the six hallmarks of exceptional relationships. Exceptional relationships are the positive end of the end of the continuum that you described earlier. So let me start with number one, the first of the six hallmarks, which is that you can be more fully yourself and so can the other person. And this gets to vulnerability, which was invoked early on in the conversation, or sort of being honest, sharing something that might be a little risky. And I'm just wondering about the do's and don'ts, Carol, maybe you can take this of vulnerability because it seems like, you know, and I'm Renate Brown, who's kind of the person most publicly

associated with the concept of vulnerability and it's written a bunch of bestselling books and has been on this show. She often talks about like, yeah, vulnerability is not just randomly bleeding all over the place. Right. Right. Right. So that's why David said, sharing something about yourself that's relevant to the relationship. Beyond that, I'll add that one of the models that we use in a tip, a useful tip, perhaps, for your listeners is using what we call the 15% rule, which is if you imagine three concentric circles, then the circle in the middle is your safety zone where you don't think twice about what you're going to say,

or what you're going to share. And on the extreme end is your danger zone in a million years, you'd never say that. There's this circle in the middle, which is your learning zone. And we used to tell our students, you're not going to learn anything, and that's basic research on education, is you've got to step outside your comfort zone to learn something. However, our students used to say, but the minute I'm outside my comfort zone, and I think about saying something and sharing something, how do I know I'm not in my danger zone?

And so we came up with this 15% rule. Step a little bit outside your comfort zone. You're unlikely to freak yourself for the other person out. And then you can see what happens in a session and a funny thing happens. I shared a little bit with you. I made myself a little vulnerable with you. Nine times out of ten, you'll reciprocate. You'll make yourself a little vulnerable with me. And then both of our safety zones with each other, only with each other, back to what David said, every relationship is different, has grown a little bit. And then

we take another 15% step. And that's how we build more and more reciprocal vulnerability, starting with our own disclosure. Don't you think it would have been catchier if you if you called it 10%? Well, maybe we should have 15% happiness. That's the other way to go, Dan. I've told this story many times that when I was preparing to release 10% happier, my publisher tried to bargain me up to 20 or 30%. Too much. I said, you don't get the joke. Yeah. So Dan, if I can build on what Carol said and come back to voter building, voter building has a bad rap. And one of the exercises we do in class is we put that word on the board and we say, what do you associate to that? And there's the usual stuff, weakness, frailty, failure.

And then at some point, a student raises their hand, says, courage, strength. And I think it takes strength and courage to share something that may lead you to judge it be negatively. That's our fear that will be judged negatively. Now again I want to really emphasize a 15% rule. You don't share the sort of things that will freak you and the other out, but we tend to play it so safe. And I think most people are stronger than they think they are. And that's what they discover in the safe. And I think most people are stronger than they think they are.

And that's what they discover in the course. Hey, I can do more than I thought I could. I can share this when I thought I couldn't. I could share that I'm a little scared about what's happening in the group. Now I think it takes strength to say that. The safety thing is to just say that. The safety thing is to say silent. So vulnerability I want to define as it takes courage to take the risk of letting you know something about myself where you may judge me negatively. But I feel good enough about myself that even if you do,

I know I'm not going to be destroyed. And the reason the course is so affirming is that I share this and it turns out you like me even more, or you feel even more compelled by me. And I've spent my whole life hiding this part of me, believing that I'd be judged negatively only to find out that it's one of my strengths. Okay, so that gets us to the second of the hallmarks, which is how you can engender in others the willingness to be vulnerable. And I'm guessing, but you'll correct me that the answer, at least in part, is you going first. You know, you share something makes other people more likely to do it. Yeah, that's certainly true because saying to the other person, will you go first?

I'm going to play it safe. Doesn't work very well. But the other thing, and it's back to what Carol said about curiosity, I think other people wonder, do you really want to know about me? And often we don't, which is why relationships don't develop. Can we be curious? So Carol was curious with the Barista. If there would have been more time, she might have said, well, what's it like with your daughter? How does it feel leaving her at home? What is it like when you go back? So if you are truly curious and ask open-ended questions, you're conveying, I really want

to know you. And when people do that, they're going to feel freer to tell you about themselves. And I think the Brista said, well, thank you. And then she returned the compliment. So again, do we really want to know where they're people? And I'm sure you're of experience it, but I have where the other person asks the question, and you know they just want me to end

so they can talk about themselves. That doesn't get me to be open. Well, picking up on that, here's another asking for a friend question. I have had the experience of being in a situation where somebody's trying to get to know me and I don't have the energy or bandwidth or I'm not in the mood or whatever. And then I kind of hate myself for not being available, et cetera, et cetera. And I kind of get into this spiral. What are your recommendations for people who might find themselves in that

kind of frosty situation? You know, I don't think there's anything more efficient than the truth or more helpful to a relationship than saying what's going on, you know. I wish I had the energy for this right now. I feel bad that I don't and right now I just don't. Imagine how refreshing it would be if we felt empowered enough to say something like that. And by the way, it doesn't mean I'm never going to have the energy. And my experience right now is I'm appreciating your curiosity.

I hear you wanting to know more about me and I don't have it to give right now. And what is interesting is That statement I don't want to reveal myself is very revealing. Uh-huh So in a paradoxical sense Carol's wonderful answer she's saying I'm not going to share myself. And I'm sharing about myself by talking about that. Right. And that is very much a here and now connecting sort of statement. That's actually the fourth hallmark of exceptional relationships.

You can be honest with each other. Yes. I want to ask you about the fifth hallmark, because I think this is very rich territory. I'm interested to hear what do you guys teach about dealing with conflict productively. David's laughing. You can't see him. Listen. Well, the first thing is we treat conflict as a positive thing, not a sedegative thing. So let me use an analogy, which I love. So Dan, you're driving to work. And the wheels are a little wobbly.

The steering is a little loose, and there's knocking in the motor. You don't say bad car, bad car. You say, I got to get this fixed. So if there's conflict, and in writing the book over four years, Carol and I've had many disagreements, we see those disagreements as a sign that something's going on that we need to deal with.

Are we not really hearing each other? Do we feel that our contribution is being ignored? Does one person feel that the other gets their way all the time? person feel that the other gets their way all the time? Rethan just blaming the other person, can we see that as a sign that we need to work on this? And can we start to explore what's going on, starting with our feelings? Hey, I'm feeling annoyed at this. What's going on with you, Carol? And Carol says, well, I'm also feeling annoyed.

And then we can say, well, what is it that's going on that's annoying both of us? And that's productive. That's useful. If we would have been silent and not had any conflict, it would have been far, far worse. We would have never finished the book. Yes, yes, yes, and I know you're not supposed to say no, but you're supposed to say yes, and so yes, and I understand that talking about your feelings is a step in the right direction. It is not uncommon for me if somebody says they're feeling, I don't know, shut down or you know, unsafe to say something or I feel like you're being dismissive or whatever in any of my hot goblins.

I can get triggered by that and then I'm off. I'm just defensive. I'm not in the game of the free exchange of feelings anymore. I'm defending myself. What's your recommendation for that kind of jerk? Well, first of all, I don't name the matured. I'm being facetious. And I'm both being facetious and there's something

about suspending my own judgment of the other person long enough to get curious. Well, I've obviously done something that's really not working for you. Can you please tell me what it is that I've done because, regardless of what my intent might have been, you feeling dismissed is not what I wanted the outcome to be. So we have a whole model that we talk about that might be a little longer to explain and more complicated.

We can go into it. It's the idea that there are these three realities and that in any exchange between two of us, each of us only has access to two of the three. The first reality is my intent, and the second reality, which is the only one known to both of us is what I do. And the third reality is the impact that had on you. And the minute you say, I feel like you dismissed me. First of all, it's not

a feeling. And second of all, you're imputing my intent. And I'm going to get defensive. But if you say, you know, I feel dismissed, then that can be an out for me, because that's not what I intended. And even better, when I made those three suggestions and every time I got no response, that would be the reality number two we would both know. I felt dismissed. That's the impact. I'm likely to hear that as a suggestion for moving into problem solving and not going down the spiral of, you know, while you're too sensitive, that's another attribution that's also not particularly staying, you know, we have this metaphorical net we talk about which is sticking with the realities you know. And so that's why there is discipline and there's competence in learning how to save these things

to each other to lessen the probability of the defensiveness. It doesn't eliminate it. So let me build on that. So what Carol has done very nicely is to describe how you could handle it. But let's now take it that it goes wrong and how you would then would handle it. So I say something I say, Dan, when you do this, Rob, Rob, and then you start to get very defensive. Well, your defensiveness is a feeling. I'm really defensive. Now, ideally, you would say, Oh, I'm really feeling defensive. I wonder what that's about, but you might not.

You might stay well being defensive. Maybe I could say, wow, Dan, are you feeling defensive? And you say, hell yes. And I said, well, what did I do? Well, you attacked me. Jim, sorry. So anywhere along this, and let's play it even worse, you get defensive and you attack me. Jim, I'm sorry. So anywhere along this, and let's play it even worse, you get defensive and you attack me. And I attack you. Maybe we can say, hey, wait a minute. This is really

going south. What the hell is going on? And I would go back to it. What are each of us feeling? go back to it, what are each of us feeling? I'm feeling hurt, I'm feeling defensive, I'm feeling not understood. So you see, you don't have to do it perfectly. But if you have that model of going back to your feelings, of saying, what's going on for me and what's going on for you? A lot of these conflicts don't have to lead to a shouting match or disaster. Something I heard you say in there, I think this came from Carol, and you didn't use this term. So it may not be a term you use, but in my paragraph nations and the sort of mindful communication world that I've heard this term of keeping it in the eye or using eye language. In other words, talking about your own feelings, which is one of the three realities that you

can talk about your own stuff, but there is a huge difference. And I think you kind of delineated this, but I want to put a fine point on it between saying, I feel like you dismissed me. That's you language. And I feel dismissed. One of the things that you might have seen, David, shake his head when you went to I, too many people think that as long as they start the statement with I, they're staying with their own experience, right? Which is why we go back to what David was talking about with regard to feelings. It is grammatically impossible to express a feeling if you put the word that, if you put any word after the word I feel, other than a feeling.

I feel dismissed is different than I feel that you dismissed me. I feel like what you're trying to do is dominate. That's not a feeling and it's a use statement. Yes. But people do that all the time thinking they're expressing. I feel statements. I often think about the game here in communication. I don't mean game in the it, but like the goal is to avoid activating the other person, some big deal. And you are definitely or almost certainly going to do that if you accuse them of something. Whereas just talking about your own feelings and also the second reality, which is the

behavior, you know, non-agreed upon stipulated facts, like you're in pretty safe territory there. It's when you get into mind reading that things can get pretty dicey. Right, right. Yes, absolutely. And one little addition I'd have is if, even when I do that and you get into your amygdala, that's the potential for learning.

Hey, Dan, what's going on? And if you're willing to look at yourself and you might, because you're in your amygdala, you may say, well, I feel that you're just being aggressive. Ooh, sorry, I didn't want to be. What's going on? What's the behavior? What does it mean to you? And hopefully the mindfulness and tenor will start to kick in for you.

Oh, I know what's going on. You remind me of my older brother who's always like that. Wow. Thanks for telling me. I'll now be careful to try not to activate that. You see how we're connecting now. We're understanding each other. And we're more interesting. Yeah. And there's a piece that we have not talked about that I think is super important, which is to include your intent. So when David was giving you this example, wow, Dan, I hear that you're really upset. I'd like to know what it is that I did and what is actually going on for you,

even if you say, well, you interrupted me three times. Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. And wow, see that you're, you know, that's, what is that for you? Maybe now you say, well, this reminds me of how I was always being cut off at the dinner table. It's even more likely that you'll go there if I include my intent in asking or in my telling. I'm asking you this because I care about us. And the last thing in the world I want to do is have you feel put down or dismissed or whatever.

And so I want to make sure that my questions and my offering of feedback to you to the extent that I might have feedback for you is it's clear that my intent is in service of us, you and me. Yeah, I mean, I absolutely, this goes back to what I was saying before, but keeping the brain activity to the prefrontal cortex, you know, the sort of logical, reasonable part of the brain and not activating the reptile stress zones, including the amygdala. And one way to do that is, as you just said, making super clear what your positive intention is, so that people don't have room to jump into paranoia.

And I want to come back to it. If I'm getting into my really upset state, that's saying something. That's a potential for learning. I don't want to be nicey, nicey and make sure you don't get there. If I innocently do something, you get there, what could we learn from it? See, what is central and Carol said this before? And you said it, everything is a potential learning experience. And the stronger the emotion, the more important the issue. That's why I

keep on coming back. If you're really upset, something important is getting triggered. What is it? Yeah. Actually, I'm glad you repeated that because I think you would correctly intuit it. It might have whizzed past me because that's a very interesting way to approach conflict or intense relationships. Instead of launching into a whole story of here, they go again, or this conversation is now a complete pain in the butt or whatever. Actually, I'm going into data collection mode. The fact that this person has become dysregulated or the fact that I've become dysregulated is

telling me something important and figuring that out could have long-term lasting benefits. Which is why David is the big proponent and I am right behind him on how sometimes the way to get to an exceptional relationship is to lean into the conflict because on the other side of it is a way of knowing yourself and the other and each other that you might not have gotten to had you not had the conflict.

We have had many stories and one of them is, you know, the last chapter in the book. But, and we're back to the say for you, play it, the less likely you are to end up with a really meaningful meaningful exceptional relationship. And in all of this, which we can't stress enough, is all of this involves risk. There's no safe way to do it. So people say, well, build psychological safety. I don't think there's such a thing as psychological safety in total.

Everything's a risk. If I share some something about myself, you'll be judged me. If I ask you questions, you may feel intruded on. If I'm honest, it may break up the relationship. This conflict may derail us. It's all a risk. And the question is, if you want to build a deeper relationship, are you willing to take prudent risks, prudent risks? And in the book and in the course, we talk about ways that you can lessen the risk, but you don't remove it. And even if it goes a little south, how you can recover.

And even if it goes a little south, how you can recover. So the question is, if you want a deeper relationship, are you willing to raise the issues that may risk it? More of my conversation with Carol Robin and David Bradford read after this. Okay, well, now you've said that you got to tell us what are the ways that you can reduce the risk or repair if there's a rupture. I think a lot of what we've talked about, I think if I stick with my feelings, you're less likely to feel attacked. I think that if I ask about your feeling, I think that if I share my intentions and

dad, I want a better relationship. I'm not out to get you. If I talk about what I wanted our relationship, I really want to be relaxed and be by self. And this is what's going on that's holding me back. Can we talk about what's getting in the way, not as a form of blame, but as a form of a problem that we can jointly work on

and enjoy jointly working on We get closer Carol are these risks harder to take when we're communicating across differences gender lines racial differences Political differences is becoming increasingly risky Well, it certainly feels riskier and it feels more challenging I also used to think that the addition to the course being called interpersonal mindfulness that could have been called connecting across differences because it's easy to connect

with people that are just like you, along any of those dimensions that you've just named. And it's harder, also often more rewarding and a richer experience. And now we're back to how do you mid, you don't eliminate the risks, as David just said. And yes, in some of those cases, it is riskier because you, when I understand even less of someone else's experience, then it feels even riskier to me when I say something that I don't know how they'll respond to. I often try to err on the side of acknowledging that I don't understand their experience and I don't know it.

I don't want that to shut me down. I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to say something. If it goes sideways, we don't know that we have the capacity to repair until we've had to repair. So, again, if you play it safe, you don't learn that you can actually repair. And I've had a lot of conversations with people on the other side of the political spectrum from me. I went to work as the only woman in a non-clerical job in an industrial automation in 1975. And for a long time, I didn't even know that I could be me. I had to become more like them.

So I think back to your point, it's riskier and more challenging and more rewarding and an even bigger opportunity for learning. Let me give an example. A couple of months ago, I was asked to do a Zoom session on influence with black managers in a major American corporation. And I started by saying, this is really a bit of gall for me, an older white man, to talk to you about this.

I said, I don't know your world. I only know my world. And then I said, what I'm gonna suggest, in a sense is unfair, because it's asking things of you when white managers ought to get their act together. And then I said, but too many of us are scared. And in some ways, this conversation is a little scary for me.

And by being open about where I was and what I wanted to do, we had a wonderful discussion. And they said, hey, this guy understands us a bit. And again, I had to lead with where I was, what my intentions were, and admit that this may not sound like a fair sort of thing, but my goal is to make them more influential, which I think I did. And what you did, David, is you acknowledged, you know, I think one of the worst things that happens is we try to pretend these differences don't exist. That's like the worst thing we can do. You acknowledged, you acknowledged,

you couldn't possibly really totally understand. And I mean, we're back to that sense that I keep coming back to. If you say what's going on for you, and you're real about it, and you include your feelings, most people will respond in kind. Now, I do wanna say one other thing when you ask Dan about, you know, in a conflict.

Now you've both escalated. You're both in your amygdala, right? Some of the stuff that we talked about, it's like, well, sometimes it's okay to just say, you know what, maybe we need to take like 10 minutes and take a breather and come back to this. That is okay to do, especially if you've noticed that you've hit a wall with each other and you're just escalating. I'll also say one other thing that we missed in that conversation, which is, wow, it's powerful to say, gosh, I'm sorry. Man do people have a difficult time just saying,

doesn't matter that that's not what I intended, I am sorry and to mean it. And to mean it, I wanna underline that because so often we say, I'm sorry. No, I feel really crappy. So not what I wanted. That goes a long ways too. Yes, amen to everything that's been said over the last couple of minutes.

I really like all of that. And it sounds like you handled the beginning of that conversation really skillfully, David. I'll apologize if anybody here is sort of a low rumbling on my mic. I have a feline invader in my little studio here. Before we close to point out the obvious, and I guess it's kind of cat provided a good segue to this, and we're all, you know, many of us have been working from home or working in suboptimal situations or living in suboptimal situations for a long time now. And in some parts of the world,

we're going back to work and some parts were not. And even where we're going back, it's kind of half-hazard and maybe we have social anxiety. There's a complicated situation when it comes to relationships right now. So I just wonder as we come through a close here, whether you guys could free associate on some ways to navigate the particularly dangerous environment, dangerous maybe precarious, maybe loaded, fraught environment that we find ourselves in right now.

Well, I would start by acknowledging, whoa, this is hard. One of the things that's happened over the last year and a half in business particularly, is that tasks have gotten foregrounded and relationships have gotten background. Which means that everything we've been talking about with you is something that people have to double down on if the only way we're ever interacting with each other is through Hollywood

squares. People use the screen as a way to hide more than seeing it as an opportunity to, you know, how when you do theater, you're supposed to speak louder so that people in the way back and actually hear you. Some of my participants in my leaders in tech program, CEO Fellows, have created mechanisms where they, when they get together in their twice a month executive team, call, they start by actually saying, it's something they learn in the program, in the leaders of tech program that I teach, if you really knew me, and they each take 90 seconds,

and they have to complete that sentence. If you really knew me, and they have to use three feeling words, and they've all got their vocabulary or feelings. And in 12 minutes, they all understand where they all are in that moment. And then they dive into what they've got to deal with. And then many of them after the call is done,

we'll reach out to each other based on what they heard in the, if you really knew me. You have to build structures and you have to double down. Yes, David. Yeah, I have a colleague who said, oh, the good thing about Zoom is we cut to the chase and we cut out the unnecessary stuff. And what Carol is saying, we are human beings related to human beings. It's that

unnecessary stuff that allows us to know each other personally. We do it at the office with a cup of coffee, we do it when we drop by somebody's office, and what we need to do is when we're on the phone, when we're on Zoom, and when we're face to face. As Carol says, double doubt of saying, here's where I am. Where are you? What's important to you? What is happening to you as a human being that I need to know because it's you as a human being I'm going to be working with. Final question, can people really change?

Yes. As Carol said, we wouldn't be in this business for this many decades if we didn't believe it What we need to separate is are we talking about behavioral change or personality change and If you're a manager if you're a friend I'm not into personality change. I'll let the therapist do that. Maybe they can a little bit. But what we're talking about is behavioral change. So I want to come back to some of the examples. Carol said Sometimes she comes in like with a lot of force. She's in control of that behavior. I don't need to know what the hell is driving that. She just needs to know how it's affecting me and that she can control

ourselves. So we can control behavior. And that's why the feedback has to be on behavior and not on character. So say to somebody, you want to dominate isn't very helpful. to dominate isn't very helpful. But to say, what I feel interrupted three times in a row, I feel dismissed. You have control over that. And so, yes, people can change behavior, and there will be much more behavior change if people shared their reaction to the behavior and told the person what was useful and what wasn't. So at Stanford we say, feedback is a gift. Because I'm telling you something you don't know. You don't know the impact of your behavior. I know that.

And as a person who's concerned about you, I want to tell you. And if we had more of that, we'd have more behavioral change. And we'd have more functional families and more functional schools and more functional businesses. And I will add that that does not mean that change is easy. Oh. I know that I come in and I interrupt.

I know that sometimes it irritates David, especially when we're in a setting like this, sometimes I get so excited, I forget. And then he reminds me. And then I'm a little bit better next time, until I forget again, or I get excited again. Over time, I get a little bit better. He also knows what it is that gets me in that state. Like, I probably chimed in a little more than usual, because I'm like, super excited to be on this podcast with you, Dan. I'm like, oh my god, 10% happier.

I'm such a fan. You know, I've like arrived in some weird kind of way for me to even be, you know, talking to you. I meditated before I went into it saying, Carol, you're going to have a tendency to really want to get in there a lot. And as much as I tried to manage myself, there were times when I didn't do as good a job as I wish I'd done. Yes, but you're so much better than you were when we started to work together. Exactly. It's, you're much better. I thought you were both great. And thank you,

Carol, for your kind words. In real closing here, this isn't a deep meaty question. This is more just something I like to do at the end of the show. Just can I get one or both of you to just plug the book and any other resources that may exist digitally or otherwise? Carol, go for it. Carol Gofford. So the first thing I'd recommend is we have a website for our book, www.connectandrelate.com because we couldn't get just connect. Connect and Relate.com, that's not the name of the book. The book is called Connect Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues. But if you go to the website, connect and relate, friends and colleagues. But if you go to the website, connect and relate, you'll see all about the book.

But you also will see some free downloadable tools. We've got a self-assessment that you can download. You can, by the way, use it to assess yourself and you can also make a copy of it, give it to some people in your life and ask them to fill it out and see whether they see you the same way you see you. We also have a free downloadable,

create your own learning group guide. So if six of you want to get together and buy the book and read it together, then there's a guide on how to get the most out of reading it together. And then you'll also see under media, there's all kinds of podcasts and articles. If you want to just learn more through that means. And then of course, there's an order button, which ultimately we hope a number of people will avail themselves of that takes you to lots of different places that we'll sell it.

And if anybody is interested in bulk buys, then they're free to contact us. And we've had quite a few companies that CEOs that have said, I am gonna buy one for everybody in my company. If I could end with a funny story about this, we also recommend that if there's a relationship you want to work on, you may want to have that person buy a book. I talked to somebody and he said,

yes, I bought it for my wife and she said, what do you think I'm the problem? So when you buy it for somebody else, you may want to share your intention. I want to improve the relationship and it will help me. If you in a sense are reading some of the stuff, I'm reading. Not you're the problem. Well, I feel happy to have met you both and glad you came on the problem. Well, I feel Happy to have met you both and glad you came on the show. Thank you. I

Feel honored to have been on it and I thank you too. Yes, it has been great fun. Great questions and a great discussion Thanks again to Carolyn David this show is made by Samuel Johns Gabrielle Z Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justine Davy, Maria Wartell, and Jen Poient with Audio Engineering by Ultraviolet Audio. As always, we'll see you all on Friday for a bonus. Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey

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