Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 394: Staying Sane at Work | Laurie Santos

Episode Date: November 5, 2021

It turns out you can call up Laurie Santos and ask about any conundrum and she will respond with a veritable treasure trove of scientifically-grounded relatable wisdom. In this episode, we ask the question: how do you hit the reset button at work? This question can apply to a variety of contexts - maybe you’re leaving a job, looking for a job, starting a new job, or trying to do your current job more mindfully. Dr. Laurie Santos is a professor of psychology at Yale University and the host of the popular podcast The Happiness Lab. In this episode, she provides a slew of science-backed strategies for hitting the reset button at work, including: increasing our time affluence; challenging our misconceptions about how much we actually dislike work; leveraging the power of ritual in order to draw firmer boundaries around our work; employing a values-based strategy called “job crafting;” and what to do when someone else at work–someone who is not us–succeeds.This interview was recorded live on Facebook, and Dr. Santos will be dropping a version of the same conversation over on The Happiness Lab podcast. Be sure to check it out!This episode is part of the Work Life series we are running here on the show. In conjunction with this series on the podcast, we’re launching a Work Life challenge over on the Ten Percent Happier app. We’ll be dealing with issues such as feedback, imposter syndrome, jerks at work, burnout, productivity shame, and more. You can download the app here, or wherever you get your apps to join the challenge for free. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/laurie-santos-394See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, happy Friday. Usually at this point in the week, we would be dropping a bonus. But today we have an extra special gift. It's a brand new full length episode with one of our most popular repeat guests. Turns out you can call up Dr. Laurie Santos and ask her pretty much anything, and she will respond with a treasure trove of scientifically grounded and extremely relatable and practical

wisdom. In today's episode, we're going to talk about how to hit the reset button at work, how to make work suck less, how to actually like what you do. As regular listeners know, this is a question I've been wrestling with personally over the last couple of months as I've stepped away from my job as a news anchor at ABC in order to focus full time on what we are building here at 10% happier. But the question can be relevant in all kinds of contexts. Maybe you're leaving your job, looking for a job, starting a new job, or simply trying to do your current gig more mindfully. To that end, we're about to launch

a brand new work life challenge, which will help you learn how to do the things that Lori is going to be talking about in this episode. This free work life challenge kicks off next week on Monday, November 8th. It's a seven day reset that will help you reorient your relationship towards your life at work and by extension your life in general. Here's how the challenge is going to work every day. I'm going to be having a short conversation with one of our two amazing mindfulness teachers who we recruited for this challenge. Their names are Don Mauricio and Matthew

Hepburn. And then one of those teachers will lead you in a guided meditation to practice what you just learned to, as I like to say, pound it into your neurons. The challenge, as I said before, is available for free in the 10% happier app. Just download the app right now wherever you get your apps and join the Work Life Challenge. Okay, so back to Lori Santos. She is a professor of psychology at Yale University and the host of the super popular podcast, The Happiness Lab, which I think is a really great show. This will mark her third appearance here on this show in the last 12 months,

and that should give you an indication of how highly I am the rest of my team think of Dr. Santos. In this episode, she provides a slew of science-backed strategies for getting your, you know what, together at work, including increasing our time affluence, that's a term of art, but actually a really powerful concept. Challenging our misconceptions about how much

we actually dislike work, we like to complain about it, but maybe we don't dislike it as much as we thought, leveraging the power of ritual in order to draw firmer boundaries around our workday, employing a values-based strategy called job crafting, and also what to do with somebody else at work, somebody who is not you succeeds. How do you handle that? Just to say this was a particularly fun interview to do, Laurie and I met live for this chat on Facebook last month, and she's going to be dropping a version of this same conversation over on her show, the Happiness Lab. So if

you haven't checked out the Happiness Lab podcast, I highly, highly recommend you do. And by the way, Laurie, fun fact, will be joining thousands of you, our listeners in taking part in the work life challenge on the 10% happier app next week. And we will get started with Dr. Laurie Santos right after this. What does it even mean to live a good life? Is it about happiness, purpose, love, health, or wealth? What really matters in the pursuit of a life well lived?

These are the questions, award-winning author, founder, and interviewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the Top Ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week, Jonathan sits down with world renowned thinkers viewer Jonathan Fields asks his guests on the top ranked Good Life Project podcast. Every week Jonathan sits down with world renowned thinkers and doers, people like Glenn and Doyle, Adam Grant, Young Pueblo, Jonathan Height, and hundreds more. Start listening right now. Look for the Good Life Project on your favorite podcast app.

Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, a baby that's a Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and entrepreneur. I'm a new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace?

Listen to Baby This is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Very happy to be talking to Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the excellent happiness lab podcast, which I recommend to everybody. Also Yale professor, Laurie, great to see you. Thanks so much for being on our live stream today. I am always happy to be associated with you in any possible way. Same, same, same.

Thanks for chatting with me. I have a million questions for you. So we're talking about work and all the glory and suffering they're in. And I know one of the subjects you wanted to talk about as it pertains to work is I love this phrase, time affluence. What does that mean? Time affluence is this funny term that social scientists are using these days, which is basically your subjective sense that you have some free time. It's the sense that you're wealthy in time. You know, if somebody calls you to schedule something, it's not like, well, how about never, or how about 2023 or something like that. It tends to be the opposite sensation of what we

often experience, which is what's known as time famine, we're literally starving for time. And the evidence is cool. It suggests that time famine works a lot like hunger famine, where you're kind of triaging things, there's like evidence of stress on your body. And like time famine has a huge hit on your well-being. In fact, some work by the Harvard psychologist Ashley Willens suggests that if you self-report being time-famished, that's as bad for your well-being

as if you self-report being unemployed. We know unemployment is a huge hit on people's happiness, but just feeling like you don't have a lot of time can do the same thing. Ashley was on my show. I think she's phenomenal. Every time I talk about this issue, I can feel my nervous system getting activated because this idea of time, starvation, and its opposite of time affluence, it's, you know, I do not feel affluent in terms of time.

But this is one of the reasons you made this recent job change. I'm not sure you're comfortable sharing, but you just made a big change for your own time affluence, is my understanding, right? I did, I decided to leave ABC News where I had been for 21 years, and I loved ABC. Changed my life working there that I got to go

all over the planet and cover amazing stories and for 11 years I was the anchor of Weekend Good Morning America, which I really love doing that show. I especially it was an amp quite attached to my co-hosts, but something I had to give because I was working seven days a week, like really working seven days a week. And so I would finish a long week of working for 10% happier hosting my podcast. And I'm writing a book, which I try to do five, six hours a day on that. I am helping to run the company and I would finish a long week of that. And then roll right into getting up to three, 45 on Saturday and Sunday mornings, which, you know, I just turned 50.

It's, you know, it was a bit like taking a flight to Asia every week in terms of having to get up that early and recover. And so as something I had to give, and I made a hard decision, which was to leave ABC, which I wasn't really happy about, but I did it. This is the thing that I think so many of us face, where we're often in positions where our time is just so filled up that something has to give and sometimes if you don't make a hard decision and the thing that gives is something that's really bad for your well-being back, the research shows is like a real path towards happiness, and it gets you off this bad trajectory that's only going

to get worse. You know, if this is where you are when you're 50, what is it going to look like when you're 55, 60, and so on? It's too early for me to know whether leaving ABC is going to be the path to some big bump up in happiness. I mean, I was already pretty happy. It's such a huge change. And I just know that it takes, for me, it takes a long time to metabolize something like that. And I had it's only been a few weeks as we're talking right now since I left ABC News. And in terms of time affluence, though, all it did was remove a very costly from a physiological and psychological standpoint habit or hobby on the weekends. So now I have my weekends like a normal person,

but my Monday through Friday still feels as jam packed as ever, and it's not like when somebody calls me and says, hey, can I get on your calendar? That makes me nervous every time that happens. So what are your thoughts about how to deal with that? There's a bunch of strategies you can use to kind of feel better.

I mean, one is really to reframe the time-saving things that you are doing. So many of us are often spending our money in subtle ways to get back time. I know my husband and I, we get curbside pickup or take out every once in a while. And if you just kind of get your take out and eat it, not mindfully while you're checking your email, that's one thing. But if you get your take out and you put a time stamp on it, I just get this burger in fries. That's a burger I didn't need to fry up and potatoes I didn't need to chop and dishes I didn't need to do. That was two hours and 45 minutes of my time that I just saved. Just the act of framing something that way, it's like,

it just kind of takes that off your plate. And that's been a really powerful one for me. From a quick takeout, hiring somebody to do unwanted tasks. We often feel guilty about these things, but it can be a way that we're putting back time, like into our schedules, in a way that can feel amazing. It sounds like you do a thing that most of us do mindlessly, maybe even sheepishly. I'm going to order takeout tonight because I don't feel like cooking. But you reframe it and deliberately intentionally savor the time savings. Yeah, and I do that for like different takeout.

The burger and fries, you know, maybe that saves me like two hours, but you know, like a good pad tie. I was not gonna do that, right? Like I was not gonna figure out where I get pad tie noodles and all that stuff. Like that would be really hard for me to do. And that's actually a pretty big time savings.

And we can do that with other things. People pay for a cleaning service or you know, hire the neighbor's kid to mow the lawn. These things can feel privileged, but even if you're paying 10 bucks to the neighbor's kid to help out, like again, it's a time savings that you get. The problem is most of us have a little bit of discretionary income, but we tend not to spend it to get time back. But when we invest it to get time back, then that discretionary income winds up going further. I interrupted you before you were going to go on to another. Oh, yeah, second tip, second tip. The second one has been an enormous one for me, which

is to make sure that you're using the free time you do have. So one of the many amazing things I learned in Ashley Willan's book that still sticks with me is the fact that if you look at people's time records, we actually have more free time now than we did like 15 to 20 years ago. That feels shocking to me. It feels like how could we ever have been more time-famished than we are right now. The problem is that the time budgets looked different 15 years ago. We had more big blocks of free time. So now we have more actual objective amount of time, but it's broken up into these tiny chunks. Five minutes before this Zoom meeting here, and 10 minutes when your kid falls asleep early, this is what researchers call time confetti. He's like little pieces of time that are sort of floating in the ether.

And you have a lot of these, but they feel so small that you never want to do anything good with them. I can find myself like, oh, I got an extra five minutes, I'll scroll through that feed that I just looked through, again, if I miss something, or I'll put a little extra time into this email or something, we do these things that don't build us up, and then we feel like we don't have any time. And so one great recommendation is to make a sort

of time confetti to-do list sort of time confetti to do list, but not a work to do list, like a kind of well-being user time wisely to do list. So on mine are five minutes here and there, that's an extra of three minutes of deep breaths I can do. These days I've been trying to write in a gratitude app more often, and I don't have a set time to do it, but during my time, it's like my moments of time

confetti, that's the moment to do it. It's like up five minutes before that meeting, we pull out my phone and scribble a few things I'm feeling grateful for. These little moments can add up if you use them well. I love that. What about the notion of a four day work week? What does the literature say about whether we can actually

get our work done and whether this attractive idea does lead to a boost in happiness. There's only a few studies coming out, but the ones that there are are really suggesting that it can be a powerful way to boost your well-being, which like no surprise, that's like research that's published in the journal, like, no kidding, right? But what's more amazing from these studies is it turns out that people on the four-day work week wind up being more productive rather than less. They get more stuff done. And we kind of all get this. When you've had the super long day, if you're just kind

of dead tired and feeling burnt out, you do stuff at work, but you're more kind of like churning, you're like kind of going through emails or like checking stuff, you're doing stuff to tick off your list to feel like you're being productive, but you're not doing like the deep, innovative work. You know, for me as academic, I'm rarely doing the deep thinking work. I'm just kind of getting stuff off my list. And when you chunk out a whole day, you got to get to the important stuff. You wind up prioritizing it more.

So the thing that drops off isn't the important creative work. It's often just the churning. So like who cares if you're not churning as much? Take that day off where you really have some real leisure. This haunts me this idea though, because I don't know if I'm going to be able to articulate it, but I have been trying to get better at not working when I'm exhausted, but I am haunted by guilt when I do that because I am thinking about all the things I could be getting done. Even on, I have one huge creative project right now

with just the book that I'm writing and I've been working on it for three and a half years and I've got another six months at least left to go. I know on some level that if I take a day off and do nothing, I will be more productive when I return to the book a day hence, but I often struggle to allow myself to do that. Does that make any sense to you what I'm saying?

Oh my gosh, it's like you're in my brain, like this happens to me all the time. And I think that guilt is twofold, right? One is we have this misconception, like, oh, I should be working. You can't be working. You're brain dead. You're not functioning at the same level. You're not going to get the work done that you believe you will. But the second problem is that sometimes that guilt creeps in because when we finally do take time off, we don't let ourselves do anything that's really engaging, that's flow filled, that's fun.

I can speak for myself, I'll have this crazy work week and then I'm feeling totally burnt out. And then I don't have the energy to do something interesting or fun with my friends. I just like plop in front of Netflix honestly and sometimes I'm so burned out that I can't even pick anything. I'm so like depleted that to just make a choice of which movie. So I literally will spend an embarrassing hour just watching the different, you know, documentary, a scrollbive, like not that one. And then I feel gross and nasty afterwards. And yes, it's true. When I'm doing that, the guilt is setting in,

which is like I just wasted a half hour scrolling through little blocks on a screen. Like, I could have been working on my book or I could have been working on this project. But if you take a break earlier, when you can really engage and do something that's real fun, that gives you flow, that feels playful, often that involves other people, so kind of boost your social connection, These are ways to really take a break. And those are the energizing things. So part of the problem is that we don't take a break. But part of the problem is that when we do take a break,

we don't take a good break, a nutritious break, something that's going to build us up. We kind of just plop around. First of all, that Netflix moment you described, you were in my brain for that. And to be fair, it's not just Netflix. It's any TV series. It's just Netflix. Yeah, series. You're all implicated.

We're not hating on Netflix here, but yeah. But in terms of having free time that we're using well, I'll give you an example of something that I came up with recently, and I'll be interested to hear what you're doing to use your free time well when you actually do that. As you know, as a parent, playing with little children can be incredibly boring and frustrating. And then sometimes you can hate yourself for being frustrated and bored with your children. It could be a real toilet vortex. And I have a six soon to be seven year old.

And I love playing with him. It's like it's better now that he's six than it was when he was three, but sometimes it's still pretty boring And so what I did was I got us a drum set I have been playing drum since I was 10 and he's wanted to play drums for a while And so we play together and that is really really fun And I also use it in my downtime when he's not around This is so funny because so I we just finished a podcast episode about fun and about how I don't

know how to have fun. So I tagged in fun expert, the journalist Catherine Price, who has this great new book called The Power of Fun. And she recently actually has decided, because you know, we talked about what I like to do and what I have fun with. And I like to do music, but I'm not that great at music. So she has decided, in fact, I have this long text thread from her where she's like, you need to learn how to play the drums. Like, you will really like the drums. Like, you just started to play the drums. So, yeah, this is inspiring me to listen to Catherine and actually learn how to play the drums. But you're exactly on point. I mean, what you're doing is you're finding an activity that's giving you both some playful flow,

like connected, where you're both playing together. And this is the definition of fun, right? You know, Catherine talks about this idea that fun is playful, connected flow. And you're both playing together. And this is the definition of fun, right? You know, Catherine talks about this idea that fun is playful, connected flow. And you're kind of finding all the parts of it in that drum practice with your son. I think one of the reasons that kid play feels kind of yucky is that it's sort of boring for the adults.

It's not really challenging for the adults. But there are lots of things you can do with your kids that really are challenging for you too. One of the other folks we interviewed for our fun episode is the journalist Tom Vanderbilt, who wrote this book called Beginners. And he had this harrowing moment with his own, I think, nine-year-old at the time, where he was taking her to, like, just practice and drum practice and swimming lessons and all these things. And she was, like, learning and having a good time, and he'd sit there while she was doing that,

and, like, farts around on some feed or check his email feeling bored. And he was like, wait a minute, hang on. I could be doing that fun thing too. Like I could be learning in the same way that she's learning. And in fact, we could do it together. And that would be like a huge boost

because now we're doing something together. We're having like parent-kid bonding time. And I'm learning something and having fun. And he talks about how, you know, this has been amazing for him both in terms of changing his identity, especially kind of giving him a sense of like, he's learning something, you know,

he's not just his job, right? So when the job is feeling stressful and is burning him out, he can feel like, well, I'm a chess player now, or I'm taking surfing lessons or something fun. But also it's just a way to kind of connect with his kids and sort of show up and not be this bad example

where your leisure as an adult looks really boring and miserable to the kids, right? You're showing them adults can learn and have fun too. I love that. I love that. Starting to take my son to drum lessons and I'm going to make the, Lou, the amazing drum teacher teach me a few things. Much more of my conversation with Dr. Laurie Santos right after this. Hey, I'm Aresha and I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wunderys podcast,

even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about drag icon RuPaul Charles. After a childhood of being ignored by his absentee father, Ru goes out searching for love and acceptance, but the road to success is a rocky one. Substance abuse and mental health struggles threaten to veer Ru off course. In our series RuPaul Born Naked, we'll show you how RuPaul overcame his demons and carved out a place for himself as one of the world's top entertainers, opening the doors for aspiring queens everywhere.

Follow even the rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. Okay, so let's keep going with some of the tips that you have for how to make work suck less than it does so often for so many of us. You have this notion of job crafting. What does that mean? So job crafting is a term that my colleague here at the Yale School of Management Amy Resnesky came up with.

And this is the idea that our jobs have on paper, what we're supposed to do, the list of tasks that we're supposed to get done, so we don't get fired. But within that list of tasks for pretty much all of us, there's a lot of flexibility around the edges of what we kind of emphasize, of how we frame it in terms of what we are actually doing in the day to day. And job crafting is the act of building in more stuff that you find valuable and fun. She suggests starting with the kinds of virtues that you care about. Often researchers call these signature strengths, so we all have these things that

kind of get us a going. Maybe you love to learn, or maybe you love to be social, or maybe you like things that require bravery, where it's kind of like challenge, or you take on some risk. Maybe you like doing things that are creative, where you're building stuff with your hands, or something. We all have these kind of things, and her ideas with job crafting, you kind of put more of that in your job. It's not necessarily in your job description, but you kind of build it in anyway. Now, when people sometimes hear about job crafting, they think, well, that might work for some cool jobs like ours, where we're podcasters and we can be really creative,

but what about really boring jobs? And that's where Amy's work is so awesome. She does these lovely studies where she studies folks who have the job that you might not think of as the most creative or flexible job. She studies hospital genitorial staff members. You know, so these are people who are literally cleaning up vomit and got cancer ward, not a flexible position. But she finds that a decent number of them say that their job is a calling, that they wouldn't change it for anything in the world. And when she looks at what they do, they're the ones who are using a lot of these virtues, these signature strengths. She tells us one story, and talked about it on my podcast where she was interviewing one

of these janitorial staff members who said that his job, he was a person who cleaned up vomit in a chemo therapy ward. And he said that his job wasn't to clean him up people being sick. His job was to cheer people up, you know, after they were feeling really crappy. Imagine the situation like you're in chemo, you cancer, you get sick all over the floor, this sucks, you feel awful. This is a low point in your life. And this staff member would come in and he saw his job as to make you laugh. His standard joke was you keep vomiting because that's how I get my paycheck, like I'll have to do over time if you vomit extra. So now the patient is laughing, he's laughing, he feels like

he's done something genuinely meaningful and good. He's really helped someone. And Amy's claim is if janitorial staff members can do this in their work and still get their job done, all of us can do this in our own way. And this is something I talk with my students about, you know, so many of my students are stuck in majors that they're annoyed by, they're getting through pre-med coursework and it's like, well, how can you build in the fun parts? They're things that you find fun.

Maybe you want to just be more social and you come up with a quiz bowl to do your problem sets. Or maybe you have a love of learnings on the edges when you find something cool, you watch extra five minute YouTube video about it. If you take charge of this process that you're stuck in, it can both feel like you have some control, but then you get to exercise these things that you love about life anyway that are going to build you up.

Here's where my mind is going with this. So you just say you're at a company and you are a younger person in a company and you have a somewhat humdrum job, but there are ways that you could see yourself advancing that would be interesting within that company. But we all know that maybe we don't know, but we should know that the modern workplace was created by white men, for white men. And you don't feel comfortable advocating for yourself

to do this kind of job crafting, because nothing in your history tells you it will go well. What do you say to people like that? Yeah, well, I think, you know, when you look at Amy's work, what you find is often the people who are doing the job crafting, we're doing it in ways that their managers didn't necessarily even know about. So there's job crafting in a way where you're like, if I could really harness my strengths and that's my move to get promotions and stuff like that, that's kind of one move.

But another move is, you don't care about promotions or getting a raise. What you want is just to not hate your work. You want to not be miserable every Monday morning when you walk in. And that's where these job crafting things, I think, can be the most powerful. Nobody cares if you see your job

as making sure you chat with folks at the office cooler or take an extra step to have a five minute conversation with the administrative assistant in your office. No one thinks that you're going to do a little bit more creative work on the edges or learn something on the side. That's not stuff to necessarily be moving up. It's just making your life more fun while you're spending literally a third of your life at your job. You know eight hours a day, we get hopefully eight hours of sleeping if you're following the well-being tips and sleeping enough. But then there's another eight hours where you're like at your job, if not more than that. So finding ways to love it can be really powerful, even if it's not necessarily for career

advancement. I'm convinced. Let's talk about another way to, and I think this is particularly relevant in a pandemic where the separation between work and the rest of your life can get very blurry. It was relevant even before the pandemic because we all have our office and our pocket in the form of a phone. But now the physical office is the dining room

for many of us still. How do we not take the stress of the day into our interactions with everybody else? Yeah, this is so much more important now, especially for folks who are still working at home, right? Because for better or for worse, there was often a natural separation between the work day and walking home. Yeah, you have your office in your pocket, but there was a moment that you got into your

car and there was a physical separation between where you thought about work and where you thought about home, or maybe you hopped on the subway and just kind of left. These things are subtle, but our brain picks up on them because they're habits, they're little rituals that we do all the time, that quickly in March of 2020, a lot of these things kind of went away. And so we need some way to tell our brain, hey, we're shutting things off right now.

We're moving away, this was the commute home basically. And so we can figure out stupid ways to do that. Like the beauty of ritual as our brain doesn't really care what it is, you just have to give it something over and over again. And so I have colleagues who, for example, at the end of their work day, shut the laptop and throw like a towel over it. Just to be like the towels over it, the day is over. I had another colleague kind of tiny New York apartment type thing where they sat at the kitchen table to work and then they literally flipped the laptop around and sat on the other side of the kitchen table. Like, and that was like

the leisure, right? And it sounds so dumb, but like our brain prays attention to these little physical cues. So giving your brain some can just sort of have a little separation. I mean, we all learn this as kids with Mr. Rogers where he gets home, he takes the shoes off, he puts the slippers on, Mr. Rogers was deeply wise about well-being takes the shoes off, he puts the slippers on. Mr. Rogers was deeply wise about well-being, and this is just another domain in which he was. So what's your slipper gonna be? How do you do just some act

that you always shut off for work? And if your kids happen to still be studying from home, I think this can be even more powerful for them. Our brains don't have a separation, but their brains are still growing. They're even more affected by this kind of clutter in their routine. So giving them some cues that they can use to be like, all right, we're shutting down for the day. It can be super powerful. One thing that we instituted really during the pandemic that we hadn't done before,

that has been a great dividing line between the work day and the rest of the day is family dinner, which we had not been doing in a ritual way Until we're all confined to this tight space together 5.45 6 o'clock. We do dinner together and that has been really helpful Yeah, I mean we forget that there haven't been these long-standing often quite ancient traditions that we in the modern world kind of just like a drop-off like oh Family dinner so silly or like oh, you know, putting slippers on when you get home so silly, right? But these things are doing psychological work, powerful psychological work to get our mind kind of ready for next sorts of steps, right? And so anything we can do to build that in for the work day can be incredibly powerful.

I mean, another one I know you've talked about is that commute home can be a nice time to do a couple deep breaths or maybe the first thing you do when you walk in before you're bringing your whole work emotionally home to deal with your family is do a quick time and meditation, right? Like these are moments where we can do all kinds of things to separate between the work day and the rest of our lives. One of the most painful parts of work for me over the last couple of decades in particular in television news has been comparing myself to other people and wondering why they're getting this job and I'm not getting it, etc., etc. Do you have thoughts on this kind of social comparison and how we can surf it rather than be drowned by it or in it.

Well, one is recognizing that it's happening, you know, like all things, I think, in this space of being mindful enough to notice, go, the reason I feel crappy about my salary today is I just heard about Joe's raise in the office. The reason I feel bad about my performance is I just heard someone else get an accolade. These are the things that if we just start noticing them, we can start acting on them. The other thing is you start noticing these things is to recognize that our brains really suck when it comes to social comparison. There can be a billion people who are doing worse than us and our brain locks on to the one person in our career or in our life who seems to be doing as good if not better and holds on to that and directs all of our attentional resources at that. My favorite example of this is not in the workplace, although I

guess it's in the workplace for some folks whose job is to be an Olympian. It was this famous study that looked at Olympians on the stand and what emotions they were experiencing. So you win a gold medal of what emotions are experiencing, generally pretty positive, your joyous, your happy and so on. You win a silver medal, what emotions are you experiencing? pretty positive. You're joyous, you're happy and so on. You win a silver medal. What emotions are you experiencing? You think maybe not as good as gold, but pretty good. You're taking home your second best on the planet.

Turns out no. When scientists analyze the facial expressions of silver medalists, what they find is that their emotions are showing things more like contempt, deep sadness, anger, run the list of negative emotions, and you see that expressed in their face. And what's the problem there is a social comparison. They're not looking at the billions of people who were not good enough to make it to the Olympics or get on the stand. They're looking at the one

person who beat them. But the remedy for that comes with the other person who's standing on the stand who's the bronze medalist. So you might think of the silver medalist as feeling contempt and disgust in all these things than the bronze medalist is, you know, even more in the dumps. But it turns out that if you analyze bronze medalist facial expressions, they're psyched. In some cases, they're showing expressions of a lesion that are stronger than the gold medalist. And again, here's the, you know, social comparison at work. Bronze medalist isn't comparing themselves against the gold medalists.

They were seconds away. Multiple people were in between them, right? But they're thinking, oh man, if I was just two seconds slower, like 0.2 seconds slower, I'd be going home empty handed. By the skin of my teeth, I am up here walking away with the medal and they're stoked. And the bronze medalist is helpful because it makes us realize that with a little bit of cognitive work, we can kind of reframe however we're doing.

We can kind of look to the fact that, hey, we've actually done pretty well, no matter where we are. We may not have billions of people below us, but there's some folks below us. The other thing is that you can tend to not just it with other people who are below you, but at yourself, kind of be competing against yourself, and that can be a powerful way to kind of feel good. Because hopefully you're going in a positive direction, and if you're not, that's a time for exercising a different thing that I think can make work better, which is a little self-compassion.

But, you know, competing with yourself and sort of having that competition stick to wherever you were before can be a powerful way to feel a little bit better, too. Have you heard of a kind of meditation practice called moodita? No, I don't know this one. Teaching. Okay. I'm going to tell the great Dr. Laurie Santos something she doesn't know. We can do it now probably, yeah.

So I will teach you how to do it. This is an ancient Buddhist meditation practice. moodita translates roughly to sympathetic joy. It's kind of the opposite of Shadon Freud. You're taking pleasure and the success of somebody else. It's a very hard skill to build. I think it's not coincidence that the Buddha honed in on building this skill because it really can shave down on one of the primary sources of our unhappiness as

members of Homo sapiens, which is falling into what meditators often call comparing mind, this mode that you've just described where you really can't feel gratitude or take pleasure in anything if you're just constantly trying to keep up with your brother-in-law. So moodita practice, it's going to sound to some, especially the skeptics, and it certainly sounded to me a little hokey at the beginning. Some people have no problem with what some of us will find hokey, but just to name that it's a bit forced

at the very least. So, you can just kind of close your eyes and picture somebody who's doing really well for the listeners. You can't see that Laurie has her eyes closed, I'll close mine too. So just pick somebody. Don't start with, you know, your arch nemesis who just got some rays that he's really burning for you. You can start with somebody really easy. Sometimes I pick my kid, the aforementioned six-year-old and are kitten. They play really nicely together

and they're having a great time. So just pick Alexander and Ozymandias, the kitten, and imagine them scampering around together. So Laura, you might pick somebody's easy for you and just imagine that. And then you can repeat these phrases, may your happiness increase. You can start maybe with just may you be happy and then move to may your happiness grow, increase. Repeating these kinds of phrases and then you might move to somebody who's a little bit more challenging.

Somebody you'd like at the office or at your personal life who's had something good happened to them, may you be happy? May this happiness you're experiencing grow and get more intense. Anyway, you get the picture. We don't have to do it for too long. And you can keep moving to more, more challenging people, maybe not the first time you do it, but over time you can.

And the great Sharon Salzburg, one of the first people who, she's a meditation teacher, one of the first people who, she's a meditation teacher, one of the first people who taught me how to do this. She talks about this fallacy that many of us have, which is that when something good happens to somebody, we feel like whatever accolade or raise, they have just had come their way that it was actually heading to us and they reached out and intercepted the pass. And that's actually not usually the case. And even when it is the case, what do you want to do carry around this resentment? Or would you like to be able to see the humanity in your rivals and be

happy for them? Isn't that going to free up more bandwidth for you to pursue what you want next without carrying around the boulder of resentment. So does that make sense to you? Totally. I mean, it fits with so much that we know about other practices that are really similar, like loving kindness meditation, right? Where you can kind of build up your compassion over time.

And my guess, I'd love to do the studies on this. Actually, I'm doing a related project with the Stanford neuroscientist, Jamil Zaki, on what we call a zero-sum happiness. There's this idea, I think, that a lot of us are carrying around. There's like a happiness pot somewhere in the universe, and you have good things happen to one person, and then there's like less in the pot potentially for me. That's just empirically that is not how well-being works. If anything, doing for others winds up increasing the sum, right? When you do nice things for others, you donate money to someone else, for example, you get the happiness from that at the same time they do. Pretty much we know

how well-being and probably even success and good things work in the world is like, this is not zero sum. We kind of all add it up together. I imagine this meditation practice does a really good job at overcoming that misconception. It's like an intervention we can do to be like, no, no, no, there's not some tiny some that we're sort of splitting up. We all can do a little bit better. Yes, exactly. Just two things to say about that.

I love how many of these names you're invoking, Jamil Zaki, Catherine Price. These are people who come on both of our shows. And it's interesting to hear, you can listen to them being interviewed in two different places, because you and I, you come at it from a perspective of actually knowing something. I come at it as the amateur happiness expert who's a journalist and is very, very, very

interested in training the mind through meditation. So often I think the results are complimentary. So that's just one thing that came to mind. And then just to clarify, Moudita practice and loving kindness practice are related. There are in Buddhism, there are what are known as the four Brahma-Viharas or divine abodes. Hard to reach states that you can train through meditation, loving kindness practice. Actually, you can translate loving kindness into friendliness that can sound a little less hokki to the skeptics. Loving kindness phrases are like,

may you be happy, may you be safe, may you be healthy, may you live with ease. So that's of practice very similar to what we just did with the detail where you close your eyes and picture usually you start with somebody easy and then you can move to yourself and then you can move to a benefactor and then a neutral person, a difficult person

and then everybody. You can run through that same cycle with all of the Brahma Vaharas. So there's loving kindness, there's moodita, or sympathetic joy, there's compassion where you're sending phrases to people who are suffering. May you be free from suffering. May you be free from pain. And then there is equanimity where you're just training in order to reach these states in order to keep them going.

You need to have some evenness of mind, especially with compassion, you know, where you're getting close to suffering. And so we train up the ability to just be steady in the face of whatever comes up in our mind. So these practices, these Brahmin vahara practices, I don't have all the science at hand, but my understanding is that there's a lot of science to suggest that these can have physiological psychological and even behavioral impacts. And so it's to me the idea that if you aggregate all of these skills under one EGIS, that EGIS could be love. Love is not an unalterable factory setting. It is a trainable skill. That is incredibly good news. Yeah, and with love and you with these kind of trainable skills, you kind of take out of your emotional ether, the bad stuff, the power of Moudita, it's not just that you feel good

for someone else's success, is that it takes away this horrible burden pain, you know, sadness, anger, frustration that you're walking around with that you don't need to. And so getting rid of some of these negative emotions can be thinking a really important part of this practice. Because you don't have to walk around with this. We often on my podcast talk about, you know, another parable that comes from the Buddhist tradition, this idea of the second arrow. You know, it's one thing to not get the promotion, but it's another to be stabbing yourself with the second arrow pissed off the whole time that you didn't get it. And if you can get rid of that part of your emotional labor, that can be incredibly powerful. Much more of my conversation with Dr. Laurie Santos right after this.

You invoked emotions. What are your thoughts on how we handle emotions at work? Because I think a lot of us are conditioned again, because as I said before, the modern workplace was created by white men, for white men. And so white men, and I can speak with some authority about white men, being one, we were not famously in touch with our emotions. So we didn't design a workplace that was really conducive to the healthy metabolizing of emotions. So what are your thoughts about how we can handle

our emotions in the workplace? Yeah, I mean, I think because of the structure of modern workplaces and the sense that they're not necessarily built to be so inclusive, our instinct is to just shut them off. Not shut them off in a long equanimity practice where you come to terms and allow your emotions so shut them off, like, can't feel that right now.

I'm just gonna pretend and keep moving and you know, keep turning, right? And I think that's bad for a bunch of reasons, right? One is, yeah, we know from the lovely work by Stanford neuroscientist James Gross and others that the act of suppressing your emotions is bad for your performance. You do worse, for example, on like, you know, decision tasks and memory tasks.

It's also awful for your bodies, even in little laboratory tasks where you show people these little emotion suppression tasks you find that they put their bodies under cardiac stress. Like, so you're screwing up your performance and you're screwing up your bodies when you suppress your emotions. The other thing is that you miss out on an incredibly valuable signal. You know, we talk about things like negative emotions and we have this term that they're like negative, right?

You know, they're negative because they don't feel great. But actually, if you think evolutionarily, these things are awesome because they're signals of something that's going badly that we should probably take some action to fix. You could think of negative emotions like sadness, anger, feeling overwhelmed like you think of your hand on a hot stove. If you stick your hand on a hot stove, it's going to hurt. And that feeling doesn't feel great, but it's there for a reason.

Your body wants you to yank your hand away so you can stop burning it. And I think we forget that negative emotions kind of work like that, you know, especially some negative emotions that come up in the workplace. These days a lot of my colleagues are talking about overwhelm, this emotion where you're like, you can't do it anymore. You are just burning out.

You're getting cynical with your colleagues. You're just not enjoying what you used to enjoy. That's overwhelm. And when we experience it, it's not great because it makes it hard to do our work and it feels unpleasant. So we're like, stuff it down, pretend that's not happening. But then that comes back to bite you. It's like leaving your hand on a hot stove. And so I think the second thing that's bad about suppressing emotions at work is that we're ignoring these very honest signals that we should take action on or things are going to get worse.

You know, stop when you get the first degree emotional burn rather than the third degree hand-burned-off emotional burn. I really like so many of the things you said there. I think it's really compelling to have it pointed out to us that stuffing your emotions can have negative psychological and physiological consequences for us. But it's also true, at least in my experience, that stuffing my emotions or not being okay

with whatever I'm suffering within the moment can have negative consequences for anybody who's in my orbit. They can become irradiated by my unmetabolized rage. And I don't know if this is somebody that you've had on your show, but if somebody's been very influential to me, Jerry Kallona, he's a sort of famous in tech circles, they call them the Yoda of Silicon Valley. He's a corporate coach. He was a very

successful venture capitalist for many years, had a bit of a life crisis, got interested in Buddhism, changed his whole life, and now works with CEOs and boards of directors to help people be saner and more humane in the workplace. And I've been working with him for several years. Like I said, he's had a huge impact on me. And he once said to me, and I'm probably going to mangle this, but something of the effect of violence by which he was not referring to a physical violence, but sort of psychic or psychological violence is what we do when we can't handle our own suffering. And in the moment, he said that I can interpolate back to my whole professional life and see that all the damage

or much of the damage I'd done in the workplace was because I was not up to the task of riding my own emotions and then just lost it with people. Yeah, and it's not just in your workplace because I know lots of people who you might be able to keep the pressure cooker lid on in your workplace. But then you walk home into your house and you see your spouse and the dishwasher

is not put away correctly. And it's like, emotions, we think we can like hold the lid on, but these things are gonna come out. They're gonna come out either in our body where our fight or flight system's gonna take the brunt and we're gonna have cardiac problems and hormonal problems. We're not going to have our digestion working right.

Or they're going to come out as like much more extreme emotions that they didn't need to get to if you just kind of dealt with them earlier. But then that raises the question, which is how do we deal with these emotions? And that's why I love practices that you all have on like 10% happier about this idea of equanimity where like we can kind of be even keeled in the face of often really negative emotions Especially if we notice them quickly Find ways to sort of allow them and investigate what they're doing to our bodies Yes, I'm obviously a big supporter of the Burma Vihara's, including equanimity.

I don't plan to say this, but it came into my mind as something that might be useful for people. And I'm interested to hear your reaction to it, Lori's. Brunei Brown talks about a little phrase that she and her team use around the office all the time, which is the story I'm telling myself is dot, dot, dot, because I think so many of us walk around with these paranoid, phantasmagoric projections about what other people are thinking. Often they're not thinking about us at all. It's our own conditioning and past traumas or whatever that is creating this story. But if you don't deal with it, it can simmer and then it can reach a boil. So my CEO and I, the CEO of 10% happier, got in Ben Rubin with whom I'm very close.

We've worked together. It's a kind of marriage, really. And we've done couples counseling with the aforementioned Jerry Colona for years. And one of the things we reached was this agreement that once in a while we will say, can I let my amygdala speak? Can I just tell you what the fear center of my brain is doing right now? And then everything I say, even if it's not

putting Ben in the most positive light, I framed it as, look, this is my paranoia speaking. I'm not accusing you of anything. This is just what the darkest precincts in my mind are offering up right now. That has been hugely helpful to our relationship and it really also helps me in my own mind sort between fact and fiction. Does that any of that land for you?

Totally. I mean, the power of that is, I think, twofold. Run is you have to be aware of what those stories are. So they're not just kind of in the background, like controlling emotions, you kind of call them out. And that can be powerful for the second reason, which is then when you start to say them, when you say, well, my amygdala is really thinking this thing. I mean, I guess is that a lot of times as you start saying it,

you're like, well, this is awful. Like this is very black and white thinking. This is catastrophizing. You know, you pull the big list that clinical psychologists talk about in cognitive behavioral therapy of all the thinking errors. And you're amygdala is making every single one of those thinking errors. And then your rational self can be like, okay,

that seems a little black and white amygdala. Let's kind of reign that in just a tad. But it's only by the act of articulating it. I mean, sometimes these fears can be so scary to us. We can never say them. But then when we say them out loud, we're like, oh wait, that's dumb, or that's like extreme, or like even if that happened, I'd be able to deal with it. You can kind of negotiate with your own a big deal of thinking errors. And that can be super powerful. And it can mean that those emotions that would normally go with it, you can kind of rain them in because you're not scared anymore, which doesn't lead to the downstream.

You're not as frustrated anymore or as you know, pissed off anymore and so on. And in my experience, I mean, yes, everything you said and doing it with somebody else, who you actually have a foundation of trust with, is even easier for me because I am not trying to sort this out inside of what David Foster Wallace calls the skull-sized kingdom inside of my own head. I'm actually talking about it with somebody else. And for me, that's much easier to do the processing. Yeah.

And it's helpful for them to know where those kind of core triggers and fears are. Because if it's somebody that you trust and who wants to see you succeed, they can recognize, oh, when I said that thing, I didn't realize I was stepping on your core terror or this core thing that's going to trigger you. And that can kind of build relationships for the future, too. I have one more area I wanted to explore with you, but before I go there,

is there anything else you want to say about working with emotions within the workplace? No, I want to hear the last area we're going to do. Well, it's your idea. I'm just, you know, you said a bunch of things you wanted to talk about, and they were also good that I'm trying to work my way through them. So I don't want to take any credit where it's not due.

You sent me a note and you said something to the effect of many of us carry a misperception that we hate work. Why is that a misperception? One of the things that we talk about a lot on my podcast, and I talk a lot with my Yale students is this idea that we have all these misconceptions when it comes to our own happiness.

We have misconceptions when it comes to what we really like and what we really enjoy. And I think the workplace is one of these. So there's this lovely study where if you ping people at random times at their work, you're going to set them up with a little smartphone app that dings and says, hey, how are you feeling right now? Generally speaking, people are okay at work. And usually because they're in flow, right?

You're kind of doing something. It's kind of taking up your time. It feels good. It feels better, for example, than what we were talking about before with the Netflix scrolling when you're on screen number 47 of different movies that are scrolling by. If you ping me then and say how you're feeling, I feel apathetic. I am not in flow. And I'm like, I feel kind of gross.

And the sad thing is that for many of us, when we're at work, we get these moments of flow. We get these moments of connection where we're talking to other people and talking to teammates and figuring out ideas and things. But oftentimes we're so bad at picking our leisure that when you ping us during leisure, we're kind of bored or we're like half paying attention to our phones or kind of not doing it. Paying people at work, they're kind of happy in flow,

paying people at leisure, they're sort of feeling apathetic. However you ask people, when they're at work, would you rather be at work, would you rather be in leisure, people are like, leisure. If you ping me, you know, when I'm in the middle of my Netflix, I can say, hey, Laura, would you rather be at work? I'd be like, no way, dude, I'm home. I'm like, I'm taking the day off. And so this is a problem.

We are actually happier at work than we think. And maybe more problematically, we're actually less happy leisure than we think. And this is something we really can control. We need leisure that allows us to be more andow, that allows us to be a little bit more present, that allows us to be kind of doing things a little bit more actively. And so finding ways to get in some active leisure can be quite powerful. I'll offer something up here that's been helpful for me, and I resisted because I resist everything because I have a sort of unhelpful variety

sometimes of skepticism, but if something strikes me as at all hokey, I will often get my backup, setting intentions. But I have found that setting intentions with some regularity is a really great way to be mindful. Mindful in the purest expression of that word. If you go back to the Polly word, that's the ancient language of Polly, that was spoken at or around the time of the Buddha, the word is Sati and one of the translations of Sati is recollecting or remembering. And that's what we're doing in meditation.

We're remembering to wake up and be awake right here. And so setting an intention like I'm about to go to Disney world with my family and my intentions will be to disconnect from work and to enjoy my time with my family. And I can, while I'm on the way people mover or whatever with my family, I might notice myself plotting, you know, the overthrow of whatever some, you know, some rival or, you, or planning some expletive filled speech I'm going to give to Ben when I get back. Nope. That's what I'm doing right now.

I'm looking at the joy on my son's face, feeling that warm Florida air against my face, et cetera, et cetera. For work, similar thing, I wake up in the morning and I try to remember to say, well, my intention is to make awesome stuff that helps people do their lives better. And while I'm at it to have good relationships with everybody I'm working with, setting these intentions with some regularity while I still am deeply, deeply fallible has made me better, I think. So again, I'll ask you, does any of that land for you? Totally. I mean, one of the biggest issues, I think with our brains and the way our minds are set up, is that that recollection doesn't happen naturally.

We can have goals in these really rational theories about the kinds of things we'll enjoy. If you're at Disneyland, you're probably going to enjoy more watching the smile on your son's face than ruminating about some bad decision at work that happened three weeks ago. But our brains don't naturally make the choice correctly. And I think our systems kind of naturally go to the things that feel easy, that feel negative, right? With this negativity bias, our attention kind of just goes there. They go to the things that are easy dopamine hits.

As much as you might want to like look at your child smiling expression, you know, your email is going to be yanking on the little dopamine cords in a way that will kind of move your attention in the wrong direction in terms of what will really make you happy and make you remember the trip well. And so I think this practice of intention setting is just a way to fight all these natural biases of where our negativity is going to take us, where our dopamine hits are going to take us, it kind of pulls us back into the moment. But that has to be, sadly, I mean, the stupid that our brains work this way, but it has to be an explicit practice. It doesn't work like regular memory. We have to put some work into remembering

and reminding ourselves so that we can kind of do it correctly. And that's true in leisure, but it's definitely true at work. Sometimes my intention setting work is like, I wanted to get through this big project, but I also wanted to get through this big project in a way that didn't make my students feel like crap, or like make my colleagues kind of hate me or push them to the brink, right? We wanna do things, but we wanna do things in a particular way, in a particular manner,

with a particular kind of emotional stability. And so remembering that that is part of the goal too can be really quite important. Well said, in closing here, I know this is a funny question to ask on your live stream, but for the people who are gonna listen to this later on my podcast, in closing here, I know this is a funny question to ask on your live stream, but for the people who are going to listen to this later on my podcast, in closing here, can you just plug everything you're doing? Because I think my listeners will get a lot out of it. Obviously, you have this amazing podcast and you what you can talk about if you want, but anything else you've put out into the universe that might be

useful for folks. Yeah, the best is to, you know, check out the happiness lab podcast where starting new seasons, hopefully soon, if you missed to, you know, check out the happiness lab podcast where he's starting new seasons, hopefully soon, if you missed to see our last season three, you should check it out. Lots on these errors of our mind and going after dopamine and what you can do to find more fun. But I also wanted to plug for my folks on my live stream. This fantastic thing you have coming up where folks can really sign up to kind of think more about their relationship with work and find more intention. Yes.

So, tell me about the challenge. So, we're doing a meditation challenge. We're calling it the work life challenge. It starts on November 8th. You can get it for free if you download the 10% happier app. Every day, we'll serve you up a little video that will be me talking to a meditation expert about some of the challenges we may face at work. And right after the little video ends,

it'll slide directly into a guided meditation that will help you sort of, as I like to say, pound the lessons into your neurons. So we find this combination of video and then audio guided meditation to be really, really effective. And so starting on the eighth, you can do the work life challenge for free on the 10% happier app. I think this is awesome. In fact, I'm publicly committing that I'm going to do this myself. I feel like November 8th is perfect timing because at least in North America, right? Our time is going to change.

It's getting dark sooner. This is the time when my brain might naturally go into, like, hermit, low emotion, kind of mode, and to, like, take a challenge where I can say like no I'm going to be actively working on positive emotion at work. This sounds awesome. I'm in thanks so much for sharing this. My pleasure. Thank you. Great to see you and thanks everybody for watching this live stream. Thanks everyone. See you all soon. Thanks again to Dr. Santos, Laurie. I was great to talk to her. Before we head out, let me mention once again the free work life challenge,

which will teach you how to navigate your life at work without losing your mind. The challenge starts Monday, November 8th, over on the 10% happier app, download the app wherever you get your apps to join it. Thank you again to Dr. Santos, and just to say thank you as well to the folks who make this show. Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justin Davy, Kim Baikima, Maria Wartell, and Jen Poyant with audio engineering from the good folks over at Ultraviolet. Audio will see you all in Monday for a

brand new episode with Don Mauricio who's one of the amazing mindfulness teachers who will be haunt you the work life challenge. Hey, hey prime members, you can listen to 10% happier early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad free with 1-3-plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash Survey.