Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 395: How to Handle Difficult People | Dawn Mauricio

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

It’s been a problem ever since the dawn of humankind: how do we deal with jerks? What do you say to them? And how do you not make everything worse? And what if the jerk is you? We’re going to get into this and other issues in this episode with a meditation teacher named Dawn Mauricio. This is the fourth episode in our five-part Work Life Series, and it is time to bring in some dharma. It turns out the Buddha had a not-insignificant amount of wisdom to offer that is directly applicable to both our inner and outer work lives.Dawn Mauricio is an excellent teacher who is making her Ten Percent Happier podcast debut with this episode. Dawn has been meditating since 2005 and is a graduate of Spirit Rock’s four-year teacher training program. She is also the author of the book Mindfulness Meditation for Beginners: 50 Meditations to Practice Awareness, Acceptance, and Peace. In this episode, Dawn talks about how to deal with jerks, imposter syndrome, and what the dharma can teach us about the technology that dominates so much of our lives both in and outside of work.Dawn is one of two phenomenal mediation teachers in the Work Life Challenge in the Ten Percent Happier app. In this free challenge, you’ll get seven days of video interviews, led by Dan, tackling tough work topics. Then, you’ll get a short meditation from either Dawn or Matthew Hepburn, another TPH teacher, so that you can practice what you’ve learned.Download the Ten Percent Happier app now to join the free Challenge today.Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/dawn-mauricio-395See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey kids, it's been a problem ever since the dawn of humankind. How do we deal with jerks with assholes? What do you say to them? How do you say anything without making everything worse? And what if the jerk is you, meaning what if you're the one, texturing yourself with venomous criticism or imposter syndrome?

We're going to get into this and other issues today with a meditation teacher named Don Mauricio. This, by the way, is the fourth episode in our five part work life series here on the show. And it's now time to bring in some dharma. Turns out the Buddha had a not insignificant amount of wisdom to offer that is directly applicable to both our inner and outer work-lives. Don Mauricio is an excellent teacher who is making her 10% happier debut with today's episode. She's been meditating since 2005. She's a graduate of Spirit Rocks,

Four-Year Teacher Training Program. She's also the author of a book called Mindfulness Meditation for Beginners. In this episode, Dawn talks about jerks and imposter syndrome and also about what the Dharma can teach us about the technology that dominates so much of our lives both in and outside of work. I should also note that Don is one of two phenomenal meditation teachers who will be joining me in the new work life challenge. The other teacher is Matthew Hepburn. The challenge kicks off today in the 10% happier app. It's free. It lasts seven days. Every day you get a video that features me talking to Matthew or Don. And then we dive right into a short guided meditation

from either Don or Matthew so that you can practice what you've learned. The challenge runs, as I mentioned, for seven days, it starts today, so there's still time to join. Download the 10% happier app right now to join the free challenge. Okay, we'll get started with Don Mauricio right after this. Before we jump into today's show,

many of us wanna live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you wanna do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without

kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist Kelli McGonical and the great meditation teacher Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm all one word spelled out. Okay on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur. On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer

on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Don Mauricio, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. It's great to see you again. We spent some time together recording videos for the Work Life Challenge. And now I get to have you on the podcast.

So it's a double whammy for me. Yeah, it's really exciting. I just admire so many of the people that have come through on the podcast. And so I'm just honored to be here. We're honored to have you. You're in good company. There's so many work related issues

I want to talk about with you. But I'm going to jump to what seems to be maybe the juiciest, which is how to handle jerks at work. This is something you and I spoke about when we were filming the videos for the challenge. Before you and I talk now, I actually want to play a clip of me and you talking a few weeks ago that we'll be using as part of the challenge. So let's listen to that clip and then we'll talk for real on the back end. We've been talking about how to have better relationships overall, how to stay connected with our coworkers and members of our family.

But what do we do when we're dealing with somebody who's pretty deeply unpleasant? That is a great challenge that a lot of us all of us have. And sometimes we come into this meditation practice thinking that the goal is to have an open heart, jam it open and love everyone. When that is just not possible with some people. There are some people that are just really challenging, even triggering for us. And so in those moments, what we're really just trying to do is can we tolerate them, can we accept them?

Wish them well, but from afar, for example. Okay, but I imagine some people are thinking, I can't get to even the lower bar that you've set there. I can't get to toleration and wishing well because these people or this person is just so unacceptable. Yeah. And that's really normal. And even though sometimes we might get to a moment of tolerance with somebody, it doesn't

mean that it stays there either. They could go and do the next jerky thing and then we're back to really struggling with them. And so I think of this spectrum and this is how I think of loving kindness practice, how sometimes we might aspire to be loving in kind, but then with people like that, it's really, really hard to be loving in kind.

And so to think of say, the opposite of loving kindness, which is hate. And so between that, that's often where I live, and where I, how I interact with all these people. And so if I think of the lowest bar being hate, well, then a little bit inward from that or in from that is non-hate. And so can I at least not hate them, even if that's temporarily while they're in my face. And then I might go back to really struggling and then some days if they've slept well and I've slept well and we're both in a good mood, then I might be able to accept them, wish them well from afar as we heard in that clip. And other days, it might not be that. So I think expecting ourselves to have this very predictable relationship or view of somebody that's challenging can be unrealistic. And so just acknowledging that

it is something that changes from day to day, moment to moment, and then to set the bar really low. That's kind of my motto because it allows me to be really kind to myself. As I try to navigate challenging people while trying to live by certain values. So set the bar low, which is, can I just not hate them today? Can I just not hate them for now? And then hope for the best and go from there. So clawing your way to temporary neutrality is what you're describing.

Yeah, you know, anything helps, I think, because my experience, I love that clawing the way it certainly does feel like that at times. But my experience is if I spend time in the realm of hate, then I start dehumanizing the person. And as soon as I dehumanize them, regularly and for long periods, then I can cause real harm. And so I find that in this meditation practice, there's so many tips and tricks of how we could continue humanizing the people we find challenging. Sometimes with loving kindness practice, it might include something like imagining this person as a young child themselves, or maybe even imagining them having their own difficulties

in their life, which causes them to be this way or whatever. And so, yeah, for me, it's just how can I, in very simplistic terms, how can I, at the very least, not spend time or too much time hating them? You've invoked love and kindness meditation a couple times. I think most people who listen to the show, certainly people who have listened to it for a while, know what love and kindness meditation is,

but there may be, I hope there are people or this is their first time listening or they're so new that they haven't heard that term come up yet in any of the interviews. So can you describe what, you know, from a very basic blocking and tackling level, what is loving kindness meditation and how would we apply it to the jerk in the office?

Mm-hmm. Loving kindness meditation is this practice that helps us cultivate goodwill or benevolence for others and ourselves. And a way that it is often taught is to recite phrases like may I be happy and healthy, may I be free from danger. And then we just really repeat those phrases over

and over until at some point it sticks. It's like we're planting seeds. And then when we think of others in our life, we don't go right away to the jerk in the office, but we'll start with someone that it's easy for us to care for. So like a benefactor, a loved one, and then we'll wish them well, may you be happy and healthy, may you be safe. And then we eventually move on to a neutral person. And then once the heart or once the mind is primed for this quality, then we would try and send loving kindness to a challenging person like that person in the office. The idea that we don't want to start with the most challenging person in our life because that could be discouraging. So we start with maybe

the coworker who didn't return your favorite pen and then after you move up to the jerk. Just a technical note here on loving kindness practice sometimes it's easier for me as somebody who's devout and I sent a mentalist sometimes it's easier for me to call just friendliness instead of loving kindness. I learned this practice from a great teacher by the name of Spring Washam and about three years ago I had that incredible good fortune to do a one-on-one loving kindness retreat with her which we filmed and will release to the public at the right time.

And the way she taught it, especially over nine days of silence, was to start with the easy person. So now when I do this friendliness or loving kindness practice on my own, I start actually with two easy people. First one of our cats and then my son. And then I put myself in because I'm more challenging than any difficult person I can find, it'll to me. And so I've got the juices flowing a little bit

with the cat and my little man. And then I can slot myself in. And I find that to be a good way to get the ball rolling. Does that make sense to you? Completely. And that's the doorway for so many people. I think a lot of us struggle with self-esteem, self-confidence. We might have used for many years or decades,

self-hatred, self-judgment as a means for motivation. And so suddenly sitting down and hearing this quality of friendliness or loving kindness and thinking like, oh, okay, now I just got to recite these phrases, it could be really challenging. Just if we haven't practiced being loving toward ourself, it's almost impossible to suddenly just conjure that feeling up because our meditation teacher or an app is telling us to do so in that moment. And so what I love about the practice of friendliness or loving kindness is that there's no

right or wrong way to do it. It's just whatever can start opening that door for you. And so for you, it's thinking of your cat and your son. And for some people, it could be starting with an animal, a child in their life, and then eventually even before they start reciting phrases for themselves, they'll imagine the cat and the child turning back to look at them or look at you, for example, and then say, he did. Hey, human.

I'm imagining your cat, just as you like that. And then sending you loving kindness before you're able to send that to yourself. And so that's just another way to do it. And so I say whatever works, whatever helps people soften and start priming the heart or the mind for this friendliness. It's hard for me to reverse the gaze with my cat and my son because my cat looks at me as a pincushion and source of food. I literally have a claw-shaped scar on my hip from him grabbing me the other day and wanting attention.

And my son commonly refers to me as dummy or dumb daddy. Those are my primary sources of work and progress. Yes, for the report of work in progress. Yes, for a report of progress. Okay, so on this issue of dealing with difficult people at work, we got a voicemail from one of our listeners who had a question about this. So let's play that voicemail so we can keep going with this very rich vein here. Hi, Dan, and the 10% team.

I'm JJ from San Francisco, and my question is how can we use mindfulness to become better collaborators? You know, to shape more constructive dialogue on work in progress, as they're being shaped. And conversely, what are the sort of healthy strategies we can use when our blood starts to boil, when things don't go our our way or we think some bad decisions are being made. We love any input on that. Thanks. Thank you, JJ. Every time I hear one of these voice smells from our listeners, I'm so glad

that there's somebody here for me to talk to who actually knows what she's talking about. So I don't have to answer it. So I will shut up and let you take that one, Don. Thanks, Dan, for throwing the ball to me. One thing maybe as a disclaimer is that some folks tend to think that meditation teachers or people who practice meditation haven't figured out. And I just wanna say that this is something that I also struggle with and it could be in the workplace,

it could be in the workplace, it could be with my family. And so it's just really trial and error using or trusting in the practice of meditation. And so one thing that I really appreciate about meditation is that I have more chance to step out of reactivity and more ability to be responsive. And it might look similar on the surface, but it's more rooted in a conscious choice. And often when I have that pause

to make somewhat of a conscious choice, there's a reflection on what would be the least harmful or what would be the most constructive could be another way to think of that question. And so just the pausing and then the constructive dialogue piece for me, what mindfulness has really helped me with is I own up and take responsibility for how I'm feeling, even if it's because of what someone else has said or done, but I take responsibility for the ways that it's impacting me.

And then I communicate from there. I might say like, hey, that doesn't sit well with me. I'm feeling tense about this, et cetera. And then because it might come out a little less of an attack on the person, per se, then there's an ability for them to hear me a little bit more. The one thing that I find is sometimes disappointing is I could be doing all of this internal work,

trying to communicate constructively and in a non-harmful way. But just because I'm doing this work, it doesn't guarantee that the person who's listening or on the receiving end is necessarily going to reciprocate that. And so that's the hard part sometimes, or the discouraging part. Yes, but you can't control that. All you can controls. What are you bringing to the situation? And when I heard you talk there about sort of owning up to what you're feeling and bringing it to the table, that is a tactic that my communications coaches, who I've mentioned several times on this show, their names are Mudita Nisker and Dan

Clermann. Can Google them? They're amazing and they're about to come out with a new book. They call what you just described. They call it reporting. So you can in the moment, just report, hey, this is what's going on for me. You don't have to blame the other person. You don't have to say, you did this and now I feel this way. Just to say, you know, right now I'm feeling a little confused

or right now, you know, some ancient stuff is being triggered and I can feel some anger coming up. And so I either wanna, you either wanna bring that into the room so you're aware of it or maybe we need to take a pause and revisit this, but I really do wanna revisit this. But right now, I may not have the resources. Is that all land for you? Yeah, and that leads into the second part

of the question that the listener sent in, which was what are some healthy or helpful strategies for when your blood feels like it's boiling or there's some bad decisions being made? And I think recognizing that in that moment we're starting to see red, which takes mindfulness and it's really hard because sometimes it can take over. And then we might say, okay, I need to pause on this because I know I'm not happy with how this is proceeding, but I don't think I could actually communicate in a way

that could be clear or constructive to this process. So I'm gonna need to take a step back. I feel like our body communicates to us all the time. It's telling us when we're uneasy, a boundary maybe has been violated or something is really bumping up against our values, let's say. And so to listen to when the blood boils, when we're feeling a lot of tension, however, I think it's when we let that emotion take over, then that's where it could be problematic. And so, for example, if I'm angry in that moment,

my anger just wants to hurt people, and it's not very constructive. But if I take that pause, I'm with my anger, I let it move through, through say meditation and just listening into it, what does it need, what is it trying to tell me? So I can come out on the other side of that anger, having cultivated or retracted some of the lessons that the anger was trying to tell me. So for example, like I can communicate really firmly and clearly what feels appropriate in a given moment because I've taken that

pause and not let that anger take over. I find it's useful if you're reporting and you're going to call for a pause to say, I'm going to come back to this. I'm not slamming the door walking. I'm not hanging up on you. I am committed to dealing with this. I just want to do it from the sanest place available to me and it's not available right now.

Yeah, I love that tactic. It's actually something that my partner and I use in our relationship as well. If usually it's me who gets a little too fired up and then I wanna often storm out and we've come up with this. I need to give him a time frame as to when I'll return to it.

Because otherwise, it's too up in the air and it's just like, are we sweeping this under the rug? Will we come back to this? This feels important, et cetera. So I love that idea of just reminding the person that no, this is important. I'm taking this step back for a particular reason and we're gonna come back to it.

This before we move on to a new topic. Anything else you wanna say on this issue of dealing with jerks, keeping yourself regulated so that you can communicate what you wanna communicate without losing it or becoming a dormat. Yeah, I think what always comes to mind for me is that we're not trying to use these practices to gloss over and to, as we heard in the clip from the challenge to jam our hearts open.

So I don't believe that that's the goal, but it's more like how can we honor what we're feeling, but continue to respond and to act in a way that doesn't cause too much harm or doesn't cause more harm than might be necessary in a given moment. So not bypassing, not glossing over our feelings, because it's all complex. We can feel really angry, but also there's wisdom in that anger. And so to not mute the blood boiling, for example. Yeah, I like what you said about the fact that the body is sending up all these signals all the time. And this is one of the great cliches.

We can tune out because it's become a cliché. They're listening to the body. But you actually should do it because your body is sending you all sorts of signals right now. It is the organism trying to protect itself. And tuning into that can be a really great way to surf these emotions which we all have. It's non-negotiable rather than drowning in the emotions. And meditation is massively helpful here, in terms of just being aware

and awake and not yanked around subconsciously. Completely. If we ignore the signals of the body long enough, it becomes tension and it could be say like migraines or other things. And one of my teachers from yoga, Jill Miller would say the issues are in our tissues. And so if we don't address them and mindfulness or meditation helps us take responsibility, learn how to communicate them. If we don't do that, then they kind of just add up being some sort of body armor. And I don't know about you, Dan, but I know that sometimes I've been getting a massage and then I start crying on the table because there's just stuff that I was holding on to that was finally being released. And so we pay the price one way or another. I don't cry. I'm a man of steel. So no, I think it's just obviously

true. It's in there. Either you have the choice about whether to look at it and if you don't, then you're likely to be owned by it. Much more of my conversation with Don Mauricio right after this. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellasai. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wunderys new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud.

From the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans. A lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling

parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Britney. Follow Disenthal wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wonder App. This brings us back to the subject of emotions, which was another thing we discussed in filming the work-life challenge and is something we're going to talk about a lot during the challenge, which everybody should do. So again, I do want to play a clip of me and you talking about emotions in the workplace

and then we'll talk about it on the other side. So there's often this image that's given when we talk about emotions and in this case, let's say these unpleasant, say angry or fiery emotions, where we're driving in a car, we still want to be the drivers. These emotions are kind of like the kids. They're in the backseat, they're welcome to be in the backseat. We don't want them to drive the car, but we also don't want to put them in the trunk, despite our feelings about them.

Don that analogy makes a ton of sense. The next logical question is, I have a lifetime of practice putting the emotions in the trunk. How do I not do that? Yeah, a lot of us do because we live in this society that places a lot of value on the intellect or for me, daughter of immigrant parents for whom they were just simply trying to survive when they came to Canada, there was no room to talk about feelings. It was just like, what did you do? And don't rock the boat, stay under the radar kind of thing.

And so for different reasons, a lot of us have these decades long experience putting all the feelings in the trunk. And I kind of think of it as learning a new language, where we're trying to become emotionally fluent. And just because we realize we want to be emotionally fluent all of a sudden, we can't put the pressure on ourselves to be completely bilingual or trilingual by tomorrow or something like that. But to take baby steps, like we would when we're just learning any language. One of the ways that has helped me really reclaim

and get to know emotions for myself was using the acronym RAIN that is often used when dealing with overwhelming emotions. So the acronym uses R for recognize, A for allow or accept, I for interest or investigate and N has been now used more lately as nature or nurture even. And that's an acronym that came from Michelle McDonald, I believe, coined in the 1980s or so, but really popularized by Tara Brock. However, my problem with that meditation when I would hear it on retreat was with the R for recognize and often the prompt with that is, well, what is here? What am I feeling? And so I would get angry, although I wouldn't know I would be angry in that moment because I wasn't emotionally fluent yet.

But I just felt as if like, well, I don't know what's here. I've spent my whole life not knowing what's here. And now you're telling me just because I'm in this quiet setting, I'm supposed to know. And then I felt very isolated. Like I must be the only person struggling with this, or I'd look around the room even though we're supposed to have our eyes closed mostly when we meditate, and everyone looked like they seemed to have gotten it. And then I recognized for myself that I needed to simplify it because I was so disconnected

from the side. And so what I started doing was really simply, well, what is here? Is it contracted or is it expanded? Does it feel tense or does it feel spacious? And that was it. And that's all I did for years, actually, as I got to know just how my body was talking to me in regards to my emotions. And then eventually over time, it would be obvious that one would be unpleasant, the other pleasant,

and that from there I would have reactions that I would often want to get rid of the unpleasantness somehow. And so if say I was feeling angry, but I didn't necessarily know it, but I was feeling more, say tense and hot, and it was unpleasant, well then I wanted that to go away somehow. And so just recognizing that the way that I would want that feeling to go away wasn't always helpful. As I shared earlier, that was when I would just want to hurt other people because my anger just would lash out in that way.

And then eventually, sometime later, an emotion would pop up, it would be like, oh, it's anger. It wasn't like I went to go looking for it. It's not like I did this internal interview. Like, is it anger? No. Is it frustration? No.

It's just what came up. And at the same time, though, because it was like new to me, the more obvious expressions of feelings arose, like happy, angry, sad, grieving, but it wasn't the nuanced versions. And that was fine by me. And I started getting into, say, looking up the wheel of emotions where it lists out dozens and dozens of emotions and the different ways they show up in obvious and subtle ways.

And so by kind of familiarizing myself with this list, then I got to know that in myself, but it took years. It took a long time. So if it took you such a long time, how could we, how could us mere mortals who are not trained meditation teachers use rain or in any way navigate our emotions in the workplace where emotions, by the way, are not often encouraged? Yeah. So I think it's just what we've been alluding to already. It could be just keeping

it really simple, knowing that something's off or that we're feeling good about something. So that's a different version of the contracted or expanded. So for in this meeting and then something's being decided upon and then we're feeling contracted, we might not know why yet, we might not know what is being expressed, but we just know something's off and then we could press pause on that, if possible. And then circle back to it. But you know, I just love what you said about

in the workplace where emotions aren't encouraged. And I used to work in marketing for a short while, just one year. And I was totally one of the people who would cry in her cubicle because when I was just unhappy at that place, but I didn't feel like I could be myself and show my emotions because I was afraid that it would be used against me somehow. And I'm sure there is truth to that, unfortunately, but I think what could be helpful is how can we express from these places that are emotional, but not from the emotion itself?

So kind of like what we've been saying, not when we're in the middle of the emotion, but when we're more on the other side of it, where we can extract the lessons and express or communicate the lessons from that emotion clearly and firmly. Of course, that just sounds really easy, but it's not. It's a process and it takes practice. It takes practice and that's what meditation's all about. It also just takes kind of living because I'm not a meditation teacher.

I'm not having done as much training as you, but I've done a non-zero amount and it's not uncommon for me to get carried away by one of my emotions, usually anger, self-righteous rage, it's a little specialty of mine. And you know, you just over time, hopefully, get better at not biting the hook. And you know, that's the goal. And then you can come back once you've calmed down and have a conversation that's more reasonable. Yes. So one of the things as I was just listening to you, one of the qualities in Buddhist meditation

that's coming to mind is investigation. But say in lay persons terms, I'd like to call it post mortem mindfulness. So our emotion might have gotten the best of us in a given moment, but it's not totally lost. Even though in that moment we were mindless, a little later when we've cooled down or when we've had a little bit of space from that situation, we can think back and realize perhaps with some embarrassment,

like, oh, that was really not cool of me, that was so unwise, I actually just was so reactive and I hurt people. And so we could maybe even imagine how we would have done it differently. And then what I like to think when we do this post-mortem mindfulness, it's like suddenly the radar or the feelers are out so that the next time we're in a similar situation, we can hopefully call to mind this different or alternative way that we would have liked to be and then apply it in

that moment. But it's not like a one-to-one situation in my experience. It's like often I need to put my foot in my mouth a few times before I get it right. That, you know, so it's not as simple, but it's definitely worth it in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, it's better to be putting your foot in your mouth on a trajectory toward improvement than just putting your foot in the mouth and never changing. Yes. Yes.

So, let's talk about another common workplace issue, which is in Postor Syndrome. And you and I talked about this during the recording of the challenge video. So, I'm going to play a little bit of that conversation and then elaborate upon it on the back end. Let me just drill down on something you said there because you were describing at least one aspect of a psychology that is quite common in my experience, especially among women, although it's unisex, which is imposter syndrome. Just this sense, this paranoid sense that you don't belong, that you're not up to the

task. Any thoughts on how we could use meditation to manage that? Yeah, it is so common and can be really, really painful and even debilitating to some extent. The imposter syndrome is often based or living in the head, but when we drop into the body and we start feeling say the tightness of the chest or the shortness of breath or whatever else might come along with the imposter syndrome, that again is enough to create a little bit of distance. So even though we might believe in it, we don't have to bite into it basically. Have you struggled at all with imposter syndrome? Oh gosh, yes, completely. In almost every avenue of my life, I used to teach yoga for 13 years. And I think it took me seven or eight years to get over my imposter syndrome as a yoga

teacher. And then I became a meditation teacher. And then there's this new wave of the imposter syndrome. I think even just when I feel completely honored to participate in a project or invited on a teaching team, I'm just like, why me? Like, do they know I'm tricking them this whole time? They think I'm a certain way, but I'm really not and they're gonna find out So it's something that does pop up regularly. It was almost debilitating in my first Say a few years like maybe 15 years ago or something like that as a teacher and Now I can see it more clearly and I don't buy into it. It can still hurt, but I can tell myself things like,

well, the people that are inviting me to take part in this project or to teach on their teams with them, they don't wanna fail. It's not some grand joke on me. And so I basically borrow their wisdom where I borrow their confidence in that moment. So they see something in me that I'm unable to see in that moment.

So I just borrow their eyes until I start feeling more grounded in my body and I could see what they see. Any impot your syndrome today? Well, the project that was coming to mind, the latest one was just the filming that we did for the challenge and then being on the podcast. Because as I said earlier, so many of my friends and colleagues and teachers that I adore

have been on this podcast. And I walk around with my mind all the time. And so I think, well, what could I possibly have to share? And what is so special about me or what not? And so that's the long answer to yes. Yeah. Well, Barra, some of my wisdom, that part of your mind is misfiring in attempt to protect you, but it is definitely a misfiring having sat with you for hours on camera and off, you absolutely belong here on the show and as part of the Work Life Challenge.

Thank you, Dad. I'm happy that this is being recorded so that I could maybe create a sound bite out of it whenever I'm feeling down and play it on loop. But I know you're being semi facetious there, but let's keep going because it is so common in posture syndrome. And so I'm curious, you talked about borrowing the wisdom of your collaborators to see in yourself what they clearly see in you, but are there any other tactics, maybe even

through meditation that can help you not be so dominated by this? Yeah, as mentioned in that clip that we heard, it's dropping into the body. That's my go-to, mostly because the thoughts of imposter syndrome are just thoughts. They're really that. However, if I believe it enough, then they can swirl and swirl and then become suddenly this like tornado that I can't get out of. And so if I can, as soon as possible, I try to remember my body sitting or standing here, maybe holding papers if I'm about to go into a meeting or a presentation or something like that, remembering to breathe. And that sounds kind of ironic because if we're standing and we're alive while we're breathing, but we tend to breathe very shallowly, if that's a word,

when we're stuck in our head. And so to really drop in the body, however, just because what's going on in the head is unpleasant, it doesn't mean what's going to be in the body is pleasant. It's going to be a reflection of what we're thinking. So there's going to be tension there. We might feel maybe our hands and cold sweats or whatever our thing is. And so what dropping into the body does, it brings us into this moment because for me, my imposter syndrome is not anchored in this moment. The thoughts will be about comparing, it might be replaying, say, another podcast episode

of someone that I admired and getting lost in that or imagining a future outcome of some sort. So it's all not present moment-based. And so when I'm in my body, it brings me to this moment. And in this moment, I'm reminded that, yeah, I might not be comfortable, but I'm okay. And I think another thing that comes to mind is mindfulness or meditation has really helped me lean into discomfort because sometimes when I'm practicing

or sitting in my meditation practice, I want to scratch that itch and I'm not doing it. And it might seem mundane, but in that moment, I'm cultivating this tolerance for discomfort. And so when I'm in that presentation at work or that meeting and I don't feel like it's going well or I'm receiving feedback that is, quote unquote, constructive, but it feels like it's critical in a moment.

I'm leaning into discomfort using what I've built on in my meditation practice so that I could look at it or switch my perspective to see it more as growth. Like how can my being present for all of that discomfort during the meeting feed my future actions so that maybe I'll prepare differently next time or I'll integrate the feedback that I'm receiving. As opposed to before I used to be way more fragile. I used to be very perfection oriented. And so if it wasn't perfect, then it was a complete fail. And then I would fall into like a shame cycle that could last days. And so now it's just really uncomfortable, but I see that the discomfort is not bad in

any way, but it's just something that I could learn from instead. Much more of my conversation with Don Mauricio right after this. Let's do a voicemail. We get a bunch of voicemails from our listeners. And this one strikes me particularly timely. It has to do with how to create boundaries in an era of increasing working from home. So here's that voicemail. Hi, my name is Eloy Skinner and I am from London. And my question is about boundaries and specifically the boundaries between work and life. And I think most of us will have experienced some erosion of those boundaries over

the past 18 months. And I want to tell you and navigating boundaries as some of us return to the office and others of us continue working from home. And also whether meditation practice can help with boundary setting. And so I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks so much. Any thoughts on that question, Dawn? Yeah, it's something that I'm currently recalibrating or re-navigating because I think at one point,

especially when the pandemic and lockdown happened, I found a lot of self-suiting in just my devices, Netflix, social media, YouTube, stuff like that. And then distinctly feeling in my body that it was no longer pleasant, it's like I had passed that self-suiting point, and it was just anxiety-provoking, or it was just tense. I would not breathe as deeply,

or just would really drop into comparing a lot, or just feel overwhelmed all the time with all the emails or whatnot. And so, I'm using my meditation practice, kind of like what we were talking about earlier, about being okay with discomfort, So I'm using my meditation practice, kind of like what we were talking about earlier, about being okay with discomfort, because being less available, so setting up maybe auto replies on my email, saying that I'm checking only quote unquote between Monday and Friday,

which is wild, that that not being available all of the time is inexcusable almost. And so setting up auto replies and deleting all sorts of apps from my phone and things like that has been really helpful. So I just feel the unpleasantness of like I'm missing out on something or I'm going to get in trouble or someone is waiting for something on me. And that there's this perceived urgency that certainly got heightened during the pandemic for me. So that everything is urgent and needed replying in that moment when it's not necessarily true. So I got to reflect and say like, well, is this true? true. So I got to reflect and say like, well, is this true? And a lot of it wasn't. And it was just this urgency I created for myself. And so creating these boundaries, but it wasn't so pleasant. So being

with that discomfort, but then also using mindfulness to tune into the pleasantness when it did arise. So just being able to have space for my device and just feeling that spaciousness in my body, the depth suddenly in my breath, or being able to just look at my window and not need to fidget for my device and fill that time with scrolling or something like that. And so when I was able to tune into those moments of peacefulness,

even though they were very short to begin with, it was enough to reinforce this choice of having created the boundaries. And so I keep doing that. I keep trying to be mindful of those pleasant moments because I have noticed, and this has happened already a few times throughout the pandemic, as I've tried to create these boundaries, is that I take it for granted. It's almost like I treat the boundaries like a checkmark, like, oh, I got it figured out. But it's a slippery slope. We answer one email on a Saturday afternoon, then we're suddenly looking for the reply a few hours later, and then we're back on. And so the mindfulness can really help kind of keep us on track in that sense.

On the subject of boundaries, if you haven't, by you, I'm talking to the listener, not to Don, although I'll include Don here too, but if you haven't listened to the episode, we just posted with Dr. Laurie Santos, the Yale professor and host of the Happiness Lab podcast on that episode we talk about rituals you can put into your life

Even like silly simple little ones that can help you draw a boundary between work and the rest of your life But I want to go back done with you to technology and mindfulness because I know this is an area of special interest for you do you think it is possible for us to mindfully doom scroll, to mindfully interact with technology, be it Netflix or social media or email? And if so, how do we do that? Yeah, I might be one of the few people who does believe that or the few teachers who does really believe in that. And the way that we can is by tuning into the body.

So just when we're doom scrolling or let's say it starts off as scrolling, because often that's what it's like for me. It's like the first few headlines that I read on the news I can take in. But at some point, especially if I get caught in clicking through all of the links that are offered in an article or something like that, then I get lost in it. Then if I can remember to tune into just my body to be like, am I breathing? What is my internal landscape like? Is it tense? Am I anxious? What feelings am I feeling? If I'm able to do that, then I'm able to kind

of snap out of the spell of the doom scrolling. And then I get to choose in that moment, do I want more of this or do I want less of this? And ironically, you would think that a person who had the opportunity to ask themselves, is that question? Do I want more or less of this? That they would choose less, but I don't always do that. I still sometimes get totally caught, but then maybe a few minutes later, I'll have that check in again. And then it's like the tension in my body gets louder, and then it's telling me like, okay, you've really got to stop doing this. And then with things like say Netflix or YouTube, what I do is I remove all of the preset settings or the default settings that play a next episode right away or that offer all of these suggestions for new videos, like basically the algorithm on YouTube, so that everything is more of a choice for me. When sometimes if I'm feeling just really down

and I want to self-soothe myself, I'll put on an episode of something on Netflix and then without that next episode auto play, after the episode is done, like say after 20 minutes or so, I'll check in and say, do I want more of this? No, I think I'm okay. Like I think I could go and continue my day. But sometimes it's like, yeah, maybe just one more 20 minute of self-suiting will actually help me focus for the rest of the day,

or help me be more present for my family for the rest of the day. And then what I love is just as much as there's tech that traps us into staying on sites and apps, there's tech that helps us get off of them, or at least have a more helpful or wholesome relationship with them. So, I think it's called Distract for YouTube or something that removes all of the extra video suggestions so that anything I watch on YouTube, it's a choice. It's not something that was fed to me. So I think it's this combination of finding these apps that are out there.

And I think the website that I have used as a resources center for humane technology, that has been really helpful in addition to using my mindfulness of the body practices to tune in and to tell me like, is this wise to continue? Is it wise to stop? I like all of that a lot. I want to turn to a subject that actually, it's not quite as juicy as jerks at work, but it's in the same zone. It's about competing with our colleagues and how can we be okay when maybe our colleague has a win. And this is something we talked about while filming the meditation challenge.

So let's play this clip from the work-life challenge and then we'll unpack it on the other side. I remember this t-shirt that I saw once that said, every time a friend of mine succeeds, I die a little bit. So how do we take joy in the joy of others, especially if we're competing with them? Yeah, the idea around it is that

when we are joyful for someone else's good fortune, then the happiness can compound from their exponentially as opposed to if we were jealous or envious of somebody else, then we're kind of somehow limiting the amount of joy that is out in the world that we can also experience. But as you mentioned, it can be hard because when we're toe-to-toe with a coworker for a specific task or role or something like that, it's normal that we'll feel upset or angry, but also

that doesn't need to take away from any of the joy that someone might be feeling. So you're not asking us to celebrate every time we're in a zero-sum competition with somebody and the other person wins, but there is a way to actually expand our emotional repertoire in those moments. Exactly, and we start embracing the complexity or the nuance in this emotional field. Because yeah, we don't want to deny the human experience of sadness or the grief of not getting a promotion

because that's there. And if we do, well, actually what we're doing is we're suppressing. We're not really honoring our emotions and then they'll come out in passive-aggressive or aggressive ways. On the episode with the aforementioned Dr. Laurie Santos, I sort of maledroyately taught Moudita meditation where you learn how to take the light in the good fortune of others. So maybe you can repair any damage I did there by poorly teaching it and talk a little bit about how, you know, this ancient Buddhist practice designed to help us, you know, with the being happy for other people when we feel competitive.

So Mudita is the word that we used in that clip and that is often translated as sympathetic joy, altruistic joy, or I sometimes simplify it as joy for others. And it's one of the heart qualities. It's like part of the same list of teachings as friendliness or loving kindness that we talked about. And so much in the same way, we could recite phrases like bringing someone's good fortune to mind and then wishing them more good fortune or may their happiness or good fortune continue. And so we can bring to mind somebody for whom it's easy to rejoice for.

A loved one, for example. And then from there, we can spread it to others. We could maybe even bring to mind some of our own joys and celebrate that or to a neutral person, a challenging person eventually as well. And sometimes the way that I also like to practice it is because if I'm trying to share mudita or this joy for someone that I don't really like, it's not so easy. So I love to drop into the body. So I bring to mind like a time when I felt joyful. And can I maybe imagine that person feeling that in that moment, given their good fortune.

And then from there, can I maybe just say like, yeah, may you continue feeling that or something along those lines to simplify it a little bit more because Modita or sympathetic joy is considered to be the hardest of the heart qualities. So the other heart qualities include equanimity and compassion with friendliness. And so sympathetic joy is considered to be one of the hardest ones of the four. So yeah, set the bar low, wish them well from afar as best you can while also recognizing that you might be feeling, say, envy or sadness or grief because you aren't experiencing some good fortune. Right. I think that's a key thing. You don't want to paper over what's there.

Some anger or sadness or envy. You want to be mindful of that while also developing the quality of, you know, sympathetic joy. Exactly. I think Joanna Macy has said in terms of the fourth heart quality equanimity that she calls it sometimes premature equanimity when we're papering over. When we learn this quality and we think, oh, this is how I should be. And then we deny the complex feelings that we are feeling. And so I would say the same thing for sympathetic joy. We don't want a premature sympathetic joy. And how do we avoid that prematurity? It's just by honoring the whole spectrum of complicated feelings, we're feeling in a given

moment. Before we go, I want to talk about a subject. I know is of interest to you, which is kind of related to what we're seeing right now in the workplace, the great resignation everybody's hashtag follow your bliss and you know, quitting their jobs. And you know, generally speaking, I'm positive about that, but I know you and I share of you that bringing meditation in the workplace doesn't mean you have to quit. Exactly. Although we may not be great examples of that, I used to be in marketing and you just left.

And so basically, I just think that a lot of the power of this practice comes from bringing whatever we're learning to wherever we are. It doesn't mean that we need to uproot our life or change it drastically in order to keep deepening. That can help or be supportive, but I think there's just so much more promise given the world or what the world really needs is us bringing these things we're learning out to our families or to our workplace, or even if we decide to change jobs, well, the new job, for example, but I don't think we necessarily need to quit everything and find a cave for a few years to really get the richness of this practice. I actually feel, for my experience, when I first started meditating, I kept going on retreats, and this is when I was working and marketing. What I didn't realize, though, was that I was

treating my practice as a way or a place to escape to. I wasn't actually applying any of the things that I was learning in my day-to-day life. And my partner at that time, I remember if we get into a fight, I'd say, hold on. And then I go off on a 10 or 20 day retreat and come back. And we would never pick up that conversation because I was suddenly feeling way more peaceful. And so that wasn't actually addressing anything in my life either. And so when I realized that I told myself I wouldn't go on a retreat until it felt like I wanted to connect as opposed to wanting to escape. And that took I think about two years. I would constantly tune in and I would be in touch with my mentor, my meditation teacher,

to also help keep me straight and whatnot. But I remember those two years were the hardest because I couldn't just run away from all of the uncomfortable situations and conversations that I really just wanted to avoid. And so I think that is what has made me so passionate about being mindful in our day-to-day life with the things that are in our lives, like technology or these jerky people at work or whatnot. And listen to you talk, I realize that next time I do Meta or Modita for a difficult person, I'm gonna wish that they find their bliss and go to a cave.

They're longer working there. That's not exactly what I wanted you to take from that, but you know, baby steps. I'm not the best student. Don, you've done a great job with this. For people who are going to, I suspect, want to learn more about you. Do you have a website, social media? Where can people dig in?

Yeah, my website is the best place, basically. So it's just donmaricio.com. And then I try to just be in touch with people in deeper ways that are not algorithm-based. So I have a Patreon community as well as my monthly newsletter. And I'm actually on a social media sabbatical right now just because I didn't like how it made me feel when I would engage with it. It just felt like when a world event would happen, I would jump into social media as if I needed others to validate my feelings or opinions.

And so I just want to kind of get to know myself more. And so I've been on this social media sabbatical for seven months now and I don't know if I'll come back. Good for you. Thanks. I'm glad you. Good for you. Thanks. I'm glad you're gone because you were trolling me all the time on Twitter. It was so uncomfortable. Don, great to see you. Thank you so much for doing this.

Thanks for having me. Thanks again to Don was great to chat with her before we head out. Let me mention again, the free work life challenge, which will teach you how to navigate your life at work without losing your mind. Don, of course, is one of the main teachers in that challenge. It starts today, November 8th, over on the 10% happier app, download the 10% happier app

wherever you get your apps to join right now. This show is made by Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justin Davy, Kim Baikama, Maria Wartell, and Jen Poient with audio engineering from our good friends over at Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a fresh episode with Matthew Hepburn, who, as mentioned, is the co-teacher in the Work Life Challenge. Hey, hey, prime members.

You can listen to 10% happier early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Go do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com Slash Survey.