Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 406: That Rut You’re In – This One Word Could Pull You Out | Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: December 27, 2021

This is the first episode of our Getting Unstuck Series. This episode, featuring social worker and NYT bestselling author Nedra Tawwab has some incredibly practical advice for various forms of stuckness, and it basically comes down to one word: boundaries. Nedra is a social worker and the New York Times bestselling author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace, which became so popular this past year that she has now followed up with an accompanying workbook. In the book, Nedra lays out a whole taxonomy of boundaries: their levels, their types, and their internal and external manifestations. In this episode, she explains it all, as well as how to summon the bravery to set and maintain boundaries even when it’s difficult and how to respect other people’s boundaries. Over the course of the conversation, she makes the convincing argument that if we can learn to see our world through the lens of boundaries, we can find some of the peace that may be eluding us. In other words, we can get unstuck.Content Warning: This episode includes brief references to sensitive topics such as sexuality, abuse, and neglect, all in the service of exploring the myriad ways in which learning to set boundaries can help us find peace and get unstuck.This episode is the first in the Getting Unstuck Series on the podcast. On Monday, January 3, you can join the Getting Unstuck Challenge, a free 14-day meditation challenge over on the Ten Percent Happier app. Click here to get started.   Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/nedra-tawwab-406See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, if you're struggling with booting up an exercise or meditation habit, if you've got too many beef with your friends and family and colleagues, if you're torturing yourself over your productivity and time management, if you're feeling overwhelmed, avoidant and resentful, if any of the above describes you, there is one word that could be the skeleton key to getting you unstuck. Speaking personally here, I have heard the word boundaries a million times,

but it always sounded to me at least like something people yammer about on daytime talk shows. No disrespect to daytime talk shows. I love going on those shows, but anyway, I had no idea what the word actually meant or whether it was a serious concept at all. My guess today has broken this idea down into three levels and six types of boundaries.

Nedra Tawab is a social worker and the New York Times bestselling author of set boundaries find peace, which became so popular this past year that she has now followed up with an accompanying workbook. As I mentioned, Nedra lays out a whole taxonomy of boundaries, their levels, their types, their internal and external manifestations. In today's interview, she will explain all of that, but she will also talk us through how we can summon the courage to set and maintain boundaries even when it's hard and how to respect other people's boundaries even when they aren't clear about what they might be. Before we bring on Nedra, let me just say a few things.

First, this is the kickoff episode in a two week series we're doing to start off the new year. This is, as well, no, that time of year when we're all dreaming up ambitious resolutions, most of which have fizzled or flamed out come February. Also let's be honest, we're coming off of two rather turbulent years, and many of us may feel stuck or sad or anxious or frustrated in a variety of ways. For me, it's often about falling into a rut around mindless Netflix binging or having

a little too much friction with my colleagues. For you, it could be boredom on the job, rot in your romantic life, frustration with domestic responsibilities, or maybe everything's generally awesome, and you're just looking for further optimization. Whatever the case, we all have our thing. Bottom line, if you're experiencing any level of inertia, if not downright derailment in any area of your life, we've got your back. We have enlisted a whole slew of PhDs and Dharma teachers to set us straight over the next two weeks. We're calling this the Getting Unstuck series. And there's more. In addition to the Getting Unstuck series right here on the 10% Happy New Podcast, we're also launching our annual New Year's Meditation

Challenge over on the 10% happier app. And this year the theme is also Getting Unstuck. We are suckers for brand continuity around here. The Getting Unstuck Challenge is a free 14-day meditation challenge and it starts on the first Monday in January. That's January 3rd. This is a great way to learn how to meditate, get back on the meditation wagon or just up your game. Here's how it works. First, you sign up for the challenge over on the app. You can actually do that right now. Then every morning, starting next week, you'll get a short video from me in conversation with the ACE meditation teacher and host of the new 20% happier podcast, Matthew Hepburn. Finally, each video will be followed by a guided meditation designed to help you both relax

and find some momentum as you head into 2022. Your home base for all of this, as I said, is the 10% happier app. So download the app right now wherever you get your apps to join the Getting unstuck challenge for free. One last brief note before we get into the conversation about boundaries with Nedra Twab, the interview does include brief references to sensitive subjects such as sexuality, abuse, and neglect. Of course, all of this is in the service of exploring the many, many ways in which learning to set

boundaries can help us get unstuck. So we'll get started with Nedra Twab. We're right after this. Before we jump into today's show, many of us wanna live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate

to this gap between what you wanna do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist, Kelly McGonical and the great meditation

teacher, Alexis Santos to access the course. Just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10% calm. All one word spelled out. Okay. On with the show. come from. And where's Tom from MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. Nedra Tuwab, thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I would love to start if you're up for it with a little of your biography because as I understand it, there's something of a story behind why you got interested in the subject of boundaries. Are you comfortable telling that story?

Yes, I grew up in Detroit and when I was in undergrad I noticed that I was having some challenges with people pushing back against my boundaries so I would set a boundary and I would have so much guilt that I would reneg on my boundary pretty much. When I started grad school, they suggested if you're going to be a therapist, you should go to therapy. So I went to therapy and I was talking to the therapist and she mentioned boundaries and I was like, what is this? And she's like, that's the struggle you're having.

And we talked about how to deal with the discomfort around setting boundaries. She really normalized a lot of the things that I wanted and I needed and how those things were healthy for me. I didn't know that because people were really upset. It was like, oh my gosh, you're being so mean. What do you mean? You don't wanna loan me any money. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a terrible person.

I don't even have it, but I should give. So to have a therapist really affirm that what you're doing is healthy for you, it made it more comfortable for me to set boundaries with others. So as I began my work as a therapist, I noticed so many people struggling with the same issues in their relationships and how those things were causing them anxiety, depression, frustration, burnout, and so many other issues. Let's define boundaries. What are they? Boundaries are needs and expectations that make you feel safe and comfortable in your life and in your relationships.

They can be verbal requests, they can be behavioral, but most importantly is something that helps you to feel comfortable and safe. And with that, that means that everybody's boundaries are going to be different. Some of us love hugging people. And others, you know, it's like, hey, I prefer to, you know, shake your hand. I don't really like to hug people. So everyone's boundaries could be a little bit different. And that's why it's really important that we wonder about other folks' boundaries and that we respect them. Looking at your materials, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong here, I see you do a lot of

very useful categorization in this sphere of boundaries. And I see that you've got three levels of boundaries and six types of boundaries. Can you describe these various levels and types? Yes. So, the levels are porous, rigid, and healthy. Porous boundaries are the one where basically we have no boundaries. We're allowing everything to sort of flow through. Sometimes we have an issue with that.

Typically people with porous boundaries report being frustrated, burn out, and overwhelmed, because they are never saying no. They are never speaking up for themselves. They are always saying yes to whatever anyone else wants. That is where the people pleasers lie. With rigid boundaries, there's this sense of counterdependency. I can do do it on my own or I don't need anyone's help. I can figure it out. And that's unhealthy because it really keeps people from being in community with you when you're saying, no, no, I don't need anything. These rules apply to everything. Right. So if we say, I never loan anyone money. Ever, not even a friend who can pay it back,

not even if you go out to dinner as someone for a guy-fair wallet, because there are people who have very strict rules that shouldn't be applied to everyone and everything. And those are the folks with rigid boundaries. And then we have healthy boundaries where we are able to say yes and no when we need to, we're able to consider the person

and their abilities in our boundaries because sometimes we don't need certain boundaries with people. You can have a boundary of, please call before you stop by, but you may not need that with everyone. So you don't need to tell everyone, hey, here is my room. You may need to say it to some folks and not others. Boundaries are really important because it lets you know what work you can do. And within those levels, we have different areas where we need boundaries.

And the areas are intellectual. That is what we're talking about and how we're able to speak about certain things. It's important that we're able to have differences in thought. Sometimes when we express that, I don't really like that TV show. People can get really upset. They think it's the end all be all.

There is something wrong with you for not liking these things. So we have to allow people to be a little different with sexual boundaries. There are certain parameters that should not be crossed. There are some things that are just illegal, right? And then there are other things where people may find a great area of, why wasn't I wasn't being inappropriate,

but the person thought it was inappropriate. There are physical boundaries. So again, there are laws around physical boundaries, especially with children, domestic violence. We have to be comfortable physically with people. That was a big thing in the pandemic with six feet, right? It's like, you know, there's a certain level of space that I'm requiring right now. And I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, there was so much conversation around, what do you say when someone is too close in line to you? What do you say when someone is not pulling up their masks? Those are all physical boundary issues. Emotional boundaries is another

area. And this is where we're able to talk about what we feel. So often in society, I hear people say, they shouldn't feel that way. Or that wasn't a big deal. I don't know why they're upset about that. And with our emotions, we are entitled to feel however we feel because those feelings are based on our experiences, the narratives that we have, our upbringing, and so many things. So it's really not appropriate to tell someone

how they should feel because we don't know why they're feeling that way. But it's something that's commonly done. Oh, don't be upset, especially with kids. I see it all the time. Oh, it's not that bad. That doesn't really hurt. And it's like, it probably really hurts. Like, you don't have their leg. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt you, but I can't recall how it was to be a five year old with hit my knee. I can only recall how it feels now and as an adult, how I choose to continue on with my day, but with a child, we don't know, but we tail people how to feel in conversations so often that is just like second nature.

Oh, don't, don't feel that way. Don't do this. Material boundaries, those are our possessions. Those are the things that I don't wanna say we feel some ownership over, but sometimes our possessions, cars, money, how we deal with those things is really important and how we allow other people to treat those things.

Because there are times when you may have a car and you love your car, you wash it every week and I've seen this where you will park at the end of the parking lot because you don't want anybody to open a car door and hit that car. So our possession sometimes are really important to us so how people are treating those things.

We may have to verbalize when you take my car, please be cautious about this thing, or I don't want you to borrow my car. These sort of things, I know as a person who is now in another city, I do have people come visit, and so being really considered around, do I want to loan my car out or do, you know, I do I want folks to Uber?

That is a boundary. And so just being conscious of what you do and don't want to do with your things is very, very important. Time boundaries are the one that I think we have the most issues with for ourselves and for others. We have this expectation of people being available. I think cell phones increase that, social media increases that.

I've certainly had people say, hey, I sent you a text message, but I'm calling because you didn't respond to my text or I sent you a message on Instagram. And now I'm emailing because you didn't respond right away to my message. And so we can have boundaries as to when we respond. We can have boundaries as to what things we agree to do

with other people, how many things we allow to be on our calendar. Time is such an important boundary because it is the one thing that, to some extent, we have a lot of control over and we give that power away and that causes us to feel burnout, overwhelmed and frustrated because we are now like,

I am doing all these things, I'm going to all these parties. I'm in all of these spaces that I don't want to be in. And if we look at the boundaries needed in that area, we can very clearly say, I can only do one activity per weekend. I need to stop working at 5 p.m. because I notice that I don't have that time

with my family after if I'm still plugged into work. Within that time boundary, we can really change the way we think and feel about our free time, our work life, harmony, and our relationships with people. It is a huge space where we can be intentional. Totally random question. Can I get away with this? with people, it is a huge space where we can be intentional. Totally random question. Can I get away with this? Yes. I don't know if this is a boundary violation, but you mentioned that you grew up in Detroit. You now live in the South. Am I hearing a Southern accent? I hear that and I can't tell. I can't even tell if that transition has occurred. I moved to Charlotte in 2009. So it's possible, I will say though, that my family is originally from the south and they moved to Detroit in the 50s.

And every year we steal went to Alabama to see family and that sort of thing. So I certainly grew up with grandparents using words like Yanda and Gail and all sorts of things. So I'm not sure if it's that or if I have just acclimated so much and I don't even notice it. Well, I noticed the accent. I like it a lot about my opinion, but I was just curious. Yeah, I'm going to start throwing sweet tea in every sentence now. You said so much you've provided me with questions for days, so I appreciate that.

One more question that is a little bit surface level. I think might have caught the ears of listeners, which is something that is super timely. What do you say to somebody who is not wearing a mask in an enclosed space, in particular, the universal sign of heedlessness, which is mask wearing below the nose, which is basically an insult in that you're making a faint in the direction of public safety. But if it's not covering your nose, it does no good. I've never had the courage to say anything to anybody. What would you say?

Well, with my kids, I say it is a face mask, not a chin mask, because they are constantly covering their chin or their mouth. So I'm like, pull your mask up, pull your mask up. With people who are not in my orbit, can you pull your mask up? Please pull your mask up. Last week I had a situation with work where we constantly had to say to one person, please pull your mask up, please pull your mask up. I think it is something that many people

are still getting used to. I know that's strange because we've been here for some time now. However, it can be a little more uncomfortable for some people than others. I don't mind it. I actually like the warmth of it, especially now that it's getting cold. I'm like, oh, yeah, I get to put on a mask and my face will be warm. But for other folks, I think there's just this thing of people can't hear me or covering my mouth is enough or I forgot that it fell down or I was drinking something. I forgot to pull it back up like all of these things. And as viewers of this behavior, it is appropriate for us to say,

please pull your mask up. Your mask is not covering your nose. Can you pull it up those sorts of things? And I have found that people are typically okay with that. I've only had one interaction in a public setting where someone really put up a fuss about it, but eventually they even put that mask on over their nose and mouth.

Two things to say, based on what you just said. One is that your attitude is more compassionate than mine. I was describing it as heedless and as an insult and you're saying, well, people are having trouble getting used to it, even though we're so far into this pandemic. I think that's actually probably the fairer interpretation. But the deeper question here is, it too has two levels at least. One is, how do you muster the courage to say something? And this, of course, applies not just a mask, but it applies to it, any boundary. So there's the courage level. And then there's, how do you communicate it

in such a way that projects care and respect and politeness rather than judgment and anger. I don't think we have to be 100% courageous to do courageous things. I think we have to be brave and we can channel that energy just by thinking of our health and channel that energy just by thinking of our health and safety. I've done a ton of things afraid, public speaking, flying on an airplane sometimes, asking someone, please pull your mask up because you don't know how they're going to respond. You don't have to be like, 100% confident.

And I could say this, you could be 5% confident. You can notice it as an issue and say, I am afraid and this is important. So you can do it even though you're not 100%. So don't think you have to be like, I'm an assertive person, I can say this to people. You don't have to be an assertive person, but you do need to be a person who is concerned

about your health and safety and potentially the health and safety of the other folks around you. And I understand that some of us are uncomfortable, but the way that we say it without being angry that we have to tell someone is thinking about an alternate story, not that this person is a jerk or a root breaker, or someone who just doesn't care about society. But perhaps it's hard for them to talk with a mask on. Perhaps they are not comfortable wearing one yet.

For me as a person who wears glasses, I will say the mask was an adjustment. My glasses was slide off, my glasses were fogging up. And so what I've had to transition to is wearing contacts when I am in public because it is very hard to wear a mask with glasses. So there are some things that perhaps we need to think about before we jump into this person is trying to harm others. There could be so many other stories that we could tell

our sales to conjure some of that compassion to be able to speak to the person without anger in our voices. In your description of setting boundaries and the different types of boundaries from intellectual to material, etc. etc. As I heard you, you were talking about setting boundaries with other people as you move through the world. This is kind of just a way of thinking about how to move through the world and interacting with other human beings. What about sending boundaries for yourself? For me, for example, one of my big internal struggles is around productivity

and how hard do I work and do I let my work seep into Saturday or Sunday, etc, etc. I'm curious about the internal aspect of this process. Hmm. Boundaries is 90% internal. And I have learned that daily in working with clients, because there are so many things that people talk about that they have the power to control, but it is much easier to think that it is some outside source.

Right? It's like it's everybody else, it's not me. I'm not the reason that I'm overbooked. I'm overbooked because everyone keeps asking me. And it's like, well's everybody else. It's not me. I'm not the reason that I'm overbooked. I'm overbooked because everyone keeps asking me. And it's like, well, you're overbooked because you're not saying no to everyone asking you. You are working after hours or on vacation because you are deciding to work.

Now, there are some careers where we have busy seasons. I think about like accountings or attorneys. There are things where we have busy seasons. I think about like accountings or attorneys. There are things where we have busy seasons and some of us are always in our busy season. We're always there. So it was really important to develop boundaries with yourself in a wonderful way to do that is to be conscious of your values. If your value is to spend time with your family. Now maybe that's not, maybe it's not quantity time, maybe it's not like all weekend. I just want to be with my family. Maybe that is taking two hours to do work, but can we structure that? Does it have to be like, oh, I just need to go do this thing or can it be from 10 to 12 on Saturdays? I will work so everyone knows. So no one else is even violating the boundary. Do you have to do it every week or are there certain weeks where you need to do it and others where you do not? You give to create those boundaries that flow into your life in a way that makes sense for you. And so it's really hard when we see things that say,

this is how you should work. You should never work on vacation. You should never work after hours. In general, I think that could not be a good message because now, especially in the pandemic, and so many folks are working from home, with working from home, there are things that happen throughout the day that you may need to take a break for.

And so if you could plug back in in the evening, perhaps that makes a little sense for you and your family. So thinking about your life and really structuring the boundaries around that, being conscious of your values, looking at the value and then thinking about, what boundaries can I have to support my value of spending more time with friends, having more hobby time. How do I adjust my boundaries for that? Because so often we are operating without even thinking about the things that are actually

important to us. Let me give you an example and you can tell me if you're up for it, whether you think this is properly executed. In my life, for many years, more years than I care to admit, I worked seven days a week. So I'm always in busy season. Recently, I left one of my jobs, which was anchoring a broadcasts that aired on the weekends. So now I have my weekends. And this past weekend, I do I had a ton of work to do, but I also know from having hosted this podcast for so long and spoken to so many people who are experts in both time management and happiness that it's important not to work all the time. The brain can't keep it up that long. And it's important to work on the relationships in your life because that will make you happy. And of course

you bring that happiness and energy back into your work. So I said to my wife, look Saturday, I am fully available. I am not going to even look at my email. I'm the whole day. It's whatever you want. Sunday, I need to work until three and then I know we have a family activity from three through the evening and she was like, great. And it seems to have worked. Does that seem like internal and external boundary setting around time that was functional in your eyes as an expert? Absolutely. And you verbalize it. Your wife, it sounds like she really appreciated that.

And what we know about time is time expands or contracts to fit what you can do within that span, right? So if you give yourself, I need to write seven pages and six hours, you probably will write seven pages and six hours because you know that you only have so much time. So I think it's very effective to say, I can only work to this time because you're one day at night. And for the

brain, it creates like this, okay, we have to get it done. We have these things. We don't have time to like online shop right now. We really need to focus on work. So that's a very healthy thing. And it sounds like it works for you and your family. Yeah, that's what I was saying about no work on weekends. I think that there is a portion of people who actually enjoy work. They find their work very valuable.

It's not something that they are desiring this huge vacation away from. And a lot of what we see is people who are like, I hate my job, how do I get out of it? Right? There are some people who are like, I actually like this stuff or it's really important to me. Like, I really want to be good at this thing

and it might require me to do some evenings and weekends. And that is fine as long as you're making space for family, social and all these other things. So really thinking about how you want to structure your schedule is a beautiful boundary. Let me go back to the bravery issue. When you listed all the levels of boundary setting from, again, emotional, material, intellectual, et cetera, I can imagine a lot of people hearing this and saying, yeah, I need to do this.

I've got a boss who's asking me to do too much. I've got friends and family who are asking me for money or asking me for time in ways that I'm not comfortable. I'm feeling overwhelmed, et cetera. This magical person I'm conjuring, which I think is probably most people. My feel, I don't have the wherewithal to do this. I'm terrified of my boss or I don't wanna anger my family.

How do we get started in what may seem like an overwhelming project? Well, if you remember at the beginning of this program, this is what I talked about, that fear of the unknown of how people react and what they might say and telling the big bad wolf that you don't want to do this thing, it is scary. What gives me comfort is the majority of the time, people actually respect your boundaries. There are some outliers, of course. There are people who,

you're like, oh my gosh, I just said I can't do this thing for them and they explode it. That happens. But when I really think about my life and setting boundaries, there have been more people who have said, okay, no problem. What works better for you or any of those things then there have been people who have chosen to end a relationship or have an explosion. We really have to work towards not being psychics and predicting the future of what could be. Because bosses have boundaries.

They may not have boundaries with you, but there is probably somebody else on the team, someone else in their life that has boundaries with you, but there is probably somebody else on the team, someone else in your life that has boundaries with this person. And the boss is respecting them. It's the same thing for parents. I get that a lot with parents. I can't tell my mom that I'm not coming home for the holiday.

Your mother respects boundaries. She's been on this earth a long time. She's worked. She has friends. She has other family members. Some of those folks have boundaries with her and The things that are not happening in your life are sometimes as a result of not having that boundary Is not because of the person because the person can respect boundaries. They have relationships with other people It's just that you haven't implemented any

with other people. It's just that you haven't implemented any. Now, I will say when you are setting boundaries with someone for the first time, it might be interesting to them that you are choosing a boundary in a certain way. Allow them time to adjust because it is new for them. Just like it's new for you to say to them, I can or can't do this thing or I need help with. It is new to them. It is new to you. So there's probably discomfort on both sides. You're not the only person that's like, wow, I can't believe I said that. They're also saying, wow, I can't believe they said that. So know that both of you are probably in the same space and that being brave is, it is really challenging. And I think we can work ourselves up in some relationships and it's just like this person won't even hear it.

We have this idea that they can't even hear it. They won't respect it. They will retaliate. And we just don't know. We just don't know. And so allow people to be upset because it may or may not happen. And hopefully it doesn't. Hopefully they respect the boundary

and the relationship is preserved and even stronger. Because right now, the relationship is being damaged by not having the boundary. You're burnt out with work. You're burnt out with a certain friendship because you don't have the boundaries in place. Much more of my conversation with Nedra to Wob right after this.

Like the short, and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time here on Earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast Life is short with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions like what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode,

I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs. And sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they felt during the highs and sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like, if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it?

Follow life is short wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. I would imagine there is a certain amount of skill involved here in how you communicate the boundary. You could go about it in a way that boosts the odds of alienating the other person if your message is infused with rage and frustration and judgment. your message is infused with rage and frustration and judgment. The easiest way to set a boundary is to think about what your problem is and what the solution is. And the boundary is telling the person the solution. So, if you are on too many projects at work and you're asked to be on another project, and the solution is, I cannot be on another project.

That is your boundary, right there. I cannot take on any more projects right now. We are constantly looking for the perfect words. That is the question I get the most about boundaries. How do I say to someone that I don't want to watch their dog? Those are the words right there. I don't want to watch your dog. We're looking for something that is not as offensive or something that people will feel really good about. They won't be mad at us, but not watching someone's dog when they really want you to watch their

dog. It could go either way. We can't predict how they'll feel. We can be very kind and gentle and let them know that we're not able to meet that request. I love the way that Bob Ross speaks in this very like gentle way. You know, perhaps it would be helpful to just take a breath, take your voice down some and say, right now, I'm not able to do that. You know, just to like conjure your inner like calm and say to someone, that doesn't work for me. Not on a whisper, but definitely in a voice

that doesn't even seem like, oh my gosh, I get a lot from people. You are so calm and I'm like really on the inside, I'm on fire. I am on fire. I am on fire. But when I say it, it's like you are so calm. I'm like, yeah, because what I'm doing is I can't believe that you would think this is okay, this is not okay behavior. So it's, I could scream that.

I could scream that, I could scream that, but I'm thinking about the other person's reaction to it. I really want them to hear it and to be able to receive it and not from a space of anger. I can be angry and not speak in a way that shows this is how mad I am at you right now. It's like, I am very upset about this. And that takes practice for sure.

It does take practice, but we can certainly just take a beat and say, you know, the thing that we need or state that request so often, when we are at the point where we're aggressive with setting the boundary, when we are yelling, demeaning, screaming, upset at people when we actually set the boundary, the boundary has been violated in so many ways. And now we're at the end of our rope with this person or with this situation.

And when we're setting the boundary, it comes out like rage because we are tired. And so it's really important to set the boundary before you get to the point of yelling the boundary, to really think about like in this moment, what do I want or need? Not, this person has been asking me things for two years. Two years is a very long time to be frustrated.

Two years is a very long time to be irritated by someone requesting something. One month, the boundary might come out a little better at one month. Two years, you might yell the boundary at the person. Yeah, I mean, and there's no small amount of self interest at play here because ultimately what you want is for people to hear and absorb your message. We know from the brain science that if people's amygdala, the fear center of their brain, if that part of the brain is activated, the more rational part of the brain prefrontal cortex goes offline.

So in other words, if you're bringing the energy of heat, and judgment, and accusation to the boundary setting, you are less likely to have the other person's brain respond in the way you want it to. So channeling your inner Bob Ross makes some sense here. So I know that Bob Ross, the famous television painting instructor, I recently watched the documentary on him, and I did not know that his hair is not naturally like that. He permed his hair. Yes, yes. I too watched that documentary. They spoke about his tone being very intentional,

and how he was speaking in that way because he knew that that was a voice that predominantly women watching his show could understand because he'd watched other people with similar classes or something like creating things and he thought they were, oh wow, it's a little aggressive or they're yelling. I wonder if mine would be more successful if I just spoke in this whisper and I say,

you know, you just, you just dab it like so. And it was very successful. People were like, oh my gosh, the paintings, the voice, it works. So just thinking about how we present the boundary is very important, but that also comes with the timing of when we're doing it. When we are at that point of like,

I am so angry, it doesn't come out a bit aggressive. So my goal is always to help people set the boundary before it gets to the point of exhaustion. One other strategy just to add here, no, you're the expert, I'm not the expert, but it just occurred to me that when trying to set boundaries, which as we've established is tricky, one thing that might help us,

aside from channeling the inner bar broths, is something that I've learned from the communications coaches with whom I've worked for the past couple of years. I invoke these names a lot in my podcast interviews because these coaches have had a lot of a powerful impact on me, their names are Mudita Nisker and Dan Clermann. And something they recommend is that when you're trying to send a message to somebody,

to lead with what they call your positive intention. In other words, to frame it not in the negative, so as to not activate the amygdala of your interlocutor. So for example, with the dog thing, you gave an example of like, I don't wanna watch your dog. It might make sense to say, I care about this relationship, I love you,

but I can't do it this weekend, and I'm really sorry about that. My positive intention is implicit or explicit to keep a relationship with you, but I can't watch your schnauzer this weekend because whatever, I'm gonna be away or I just don't want to. Anyway, does any of that land for you, the idea of stating your positive intention for the relationship and then pursuing the boundary setting? Absolutely, I think that is a effective strategy to let people know, I love you, I care

about this relationship and this thing won't work for me. Some people certainly need that, particularly family, our romantic relationships. Those are places where we want to lead with love, and let people know that I love you, and I cannot do this thing, or, and this is not working for me. Absolutely. That may be a little more interesting and work settings or that sort of thing. You don't wanna tell a colleague, I love you.

And I can't help you with this project, but perhaps there is something else we could say. I enjoy working with you, but right now my calendar is full. There are so many other things I have going on. Sometimes though, I have noticed that when people really want something from you, they have this Steve Irkho level of persistence. And we can give them a story. We can let them know how much we care about a relationship or care about the situation, and none of that might matter. And so knowing your people in setting boundaries is really helpful

because there are some people who would really appreciate you saying, I love you and I cannot do that. And there are other people who will still say, if you love me, why can't you? And so knowing your person is so important, I was talking to someone recently who was unable to commit to a work opportunity and they told the person, like all of these things they had go, I mean, it sound really reasonable.

It was like, I have these 10 things. So I cannot do this right now. I would love to work with you in the future or something like that. And the person they said that too was very upset. It was like, well, why can't you do it for me? It's like put me on as the 11th thing. It wouldn't take that boundary.

And the person setting the boundary was really like, did I say something wrong? And I said, no, some people just can't receive the boundary. It's not about how you say it. Because you did it in a very compassionate way by letting them know why you weren't saying no. But they weren't able to receive that. Now, I don't know if there's a better way

to say something that a person is just unwilling No, but they weren't able to receive that. Now, I don't know if there's a better way to say something that a person is just unwilling to receive. So if there are relationships or situations where a person has a problem receiving boundaries, I think keeping it short and simple is best because what you don't want them to do is try to now start a conversation around why you don't really need the boundary or how they can make whatever

they want work for your life. You really just need them to honor the boundary. So with those people, with those, I think the comedian, Charlie Murphy once described with James as a habitual line stepper with those habitual line steppers with with the Steve Eurkels. I imagine you have to be prepared to set the boundary over and over again. I mean, yeah, if you think about like that's what Laura was doing every episode. So it's like I'm not going to the dance with you. I think at some point Laura, she didn't date Steve but she dated his alter ego Stefan. So there is this idea sometimes with boundaries that if we continue to ask people at some point they will say yes. And so when So when setting the boundary, the language we use is really important.

If you don't ever want to watch your friends' dog, how do you let that person know that this is something that you're just not open to as a thing in your friendship with them? How do you say it? So it's, I love you, but I am not a dog person. And it doesn't fit into my life. I don't want to ruin our relationship because I'm not giving your dog the attention it needs. Perhaps there is you know, some service, you know, some other person who really loves dogs, but it is not me. I love you, but I do not like dogs. So how do you say to someone that there is some

finality to this boundary? Because you don't want people to continue to repeat something when it's like, no, this is a like never for me. It's not like right now. I don't want to do this. This is a never. So being, you know, certainly consider it in your language and saying to someone that this is not something that could be an option in the future, just really signs to someone like, we are at the end of the road. This is it. This is my answer and it's not something that we can have any wiggle room on.

And as you've said, there are a lot of people who won't take that. Even if you present the boundary with as having no wiggle room, you might have to be prepared to just set the boundary over and over again. Your mom's just going to keep pushing you to come home for Christmas. Your friend's gonna keep shoving that dog on you. Your boss is gonna keep asking you to add one more thing to your project list. And you just, if I'm channeling you correctly,

you just have to be willing to restate the boundary over and over. Is there no other strategy? The strategy is saying stop. Many times we don't say stop. We just let people continue to ask us. One example that I use in my book is someone didn't particularly enjoy their co-workers personality, but the person will always ask them to lunch. And so they never say it like, I like to eat lunch here, or I prefer to have lunch by myself. It was like, oh, not today. No, not this time. No, I can't go like all of these things, but there was no like,

hey, this is my preference here. If you have a parent who is saying, do you want to come home for Christmas? Do you want to come home for Christmas? No, just like last year, we're not coming home, you know, those sort of things. You can say to someone, please stop asking me because I feel like this is like a no in the future as well. I feel like this is a universal no. I feel like this will be a no in 2023 and a no in 2030 as well. Don't say all that. But you can just say, please stop asking. We try to find this really complicated language to say stop and really the word is just stop. Please stop asking. It's what we do with kids.

You do get to a point where you say, stop asking. That's something that certainly with my five year old, it's like, did you hear me say no? It's stop. Stop because this is a no now, it will be a no in the car, it will be a no way. It's like stop. We have to get to a stopping point. Yeah, I have no problem bringing the hammer down my six year old, but I just keep going back to the example you conjured of somebody in the office asking you out to lunch over and over. It seems so uncomfortable to say to that person, I just, this is a no for today and I would like you to apply this no through 2030 and beyond like that. And then you have to keep working with that person.

That just seems so uncomfortable. Is it uncomfortable to sit through a lunch with someone that you don't enjoy? I think that's uncomfortable too. Yes, it is. So it's like choose your discomfort. Do you want to have pretend lunches with this person for the duration of you being at this company? Or do you want to say, Hey, I'm not really interested in going to lunch. I do think that it is uncomfortable. But I also believe that we don't have to like everyone and everyone will

not like us. And so there are people in life whose company we will not enjoy. There are people in life who will not enjoy our company. And so when that is the case, we don't have to say to people, I don't like your personality, but we can say, you know, our for lunch, you only get, you know, most jobs you get our for lunch. Some people go workouts, some people listen to a podcast, but it's really not a lot of time. So again, time boundaries.

Is this how you want to spend your one hour? And how do you let this person know in a very kind and gentle way? It's not, I don't ever want to go to lunch with you, but it could be, I prefer to have my lunches alone because this is the time where I restore myself. But thank you so much for the invite. Just letting them know in a very gentle way that this is something that does not work for you, because do we want to tell people you should go to lunch with people, even if you don't want to.

You should do this, even if you don't want to. You should do this, even if you don't want to. You should go and visit your parents, even if you don't want to. That is where the therapist in me says, no, because then I get people in my office talking about depression because they're going home for Christmas and they don't want to be there. Or anxiety about interacting with a certain cohort or because they don't want to be there. Or anxiety about interacting with a certain coworker

because they don't really like the person. So it creates so many bigger issues because we're really trying to avoid setting a really hard boundary. That is a really hard, uncomfortable boundary. But the consequences of that are really big. Much more of my conversation with Nedra to Wob right after this. Let's talk about it from the flip side. What's your advice on

respecting other people's boundaries and maybe even intuiting their boundaries? Because sometimes people won't have the wherewithal to tell us. boundaries because sometimes people won't have the wherewithal to tell us. Respecting boundaries, that also takes some practice because we do live in a society where we think we can be persistent or we think someone will change their mind, we think that because of our relationship with them, that they should even have a boundary. You know, they shouldn't have this boundary of not coming home for Christmas because this is my child, how dare they say that. But everyone is entitled to their preferences to be a little different from someone else. How do we just say, that's different? And I honor that. You don't have to be just like me.

It is a life practice to hear someone say a boundary and say, okay, thank you for telling me that. We don't have to like other people's boundaries. We don't have to agree with the boundary. We don't have to have a deep understanding of it. But what we can do is honor it. We can just allow a person to have a battery because that will, I believe, make the relationship deeper. When we do things with people that we

actually enjoy, will we have conversations where we actually feel comfortable, we help them in ways that are truly authentic. I remember, maybe this was in the 90s. There was this movement of parenting not telling your kids know to think of these alternate things like would you rather do this or you know just not using the word no and I thought that was really interesting to not use the word no because we need a lot of practice with here again. We really do. We need, and if we can start practicing at two, three years old, perhaps we'll be better at it by the time we're 30, 40, 50, 60 of allowing people to say no, because people will say no.

And we have to deal with the discomfort around that. We cannot make everyone say yes or be willing to do everything for us. We have to allow people to have options. What about the skill of kind of making the empathic leap into the minds of the people around you in a way that allows you to make educated guesses about what their boundaries are, because a lot of people don't, you know, I haven't worked with you or haven't listened to this podcast and haven't worked up the skill set and the gumption required to set boundaries. Do you find yourself doing that, you know, just making educated guesses

about what the boundaries might be of the people in your world? Yeah, I think based on someone's behavior, sometimes the tone in which they say yes or no, is a good indicator of how they feel about it. I notice a hesitant yes, and I tend to release people when I hear the hesitancy, when I hear the,

yeah, I'll do it. It's like, whoa, I don't want you to feel like you need to do this with me or for me because I'm asking. There is something else that we can do. There's another need that I may have that you may say, yes, too. So really being conscious of how people are saying things to us, their body language, when they're saying things, when we notice that their energy is up, we know which friends or family members enjoy certain things and which things they don't really enjoy.

So we don't have to include people in everything. We don't have to ask for help in everything because hopefully we have a community of people. And so there are some people who will want to do this thing, and there are some people who won't, and that's okay. We have to build our community when we notice that, oh gosh, there is no one who wants to do blank with me. I have to accept the know of everyone else,

but I need to also find someone who wants to try this thing with me. It doesn't mean that you have to figure out who in your circle, you now need to make a part of this experience because even if they say yes, will they enjoy it, will they like it in the way that you do probably not because it's not their thing. So really noticing the way people say yes or no, what they're saying, asking them questions. I notice that you see it, no, in this situation, is that a no like universally, like forever, or is that a no this time? Sometimes we're afraid of the answer, but just having an idea can actually give you the ability to choose differently in the future. Is it important to bear in mind the intersection of boundaries and diversity? In other words, it might be easier for me to set a boundary in a workplace, given that

the modern workplace was created by white men for the benefit of white men, it might be easier for me to set a boundary than for a woman or a woman of color or somebody who's differently abled. So I wonder if you have thoughts about how these two issues can intersect? Well, as a black woman, I definitely think that there is this stigma when black women set boundaries and it's angry black woman. Oh my gosh, she's so angry.

She said no, it's like, did she yell? Did she push something over? What happened when she said no? She just said no, okay, what people can say no? So it is this stigma around black women saying it. I think for women to be assertive, there are all the bossy, she's feisty, she's sassy, all of these sort of things.

And what I see that as is, wow, they said about, she's a diva, I meant you hear that a lot with a female entertain said about, she's a diva. I meant, you hear that a lot with a female entertainers that she is a diva. I try to look into that, like, what are they calling her a diva for? Oh, she want an ice cold water. I don't hear the diva behavior here. Like, we all have a preference for water temperature.

Like, is that, did she throw a bottle at someone because it was room temperature? What is actually happening? And we'll run with this stuff. And we really have to think about how are we feeding into the stereotype? Is that our way of disempowering a population of people from saying no? Are we really trying to silence them by creating labels, by creating terms that don't support them being assertive? Sometimes we are and we have to strike those sort of words from our vocabulary in a childcare situation

once someone called my daughter, Sassy. I said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't use that word. We cannot refer to her as sassy because I think she was stating a preference. Now, did she roll her eyes and do it? I don't know. That's not what happened. She stated a preference. And so now, if we give her this sassy label, which is a negative connotation to have in a boundary, this is am I being anything or am I just requesting something? Am I stating a boundary? So being really

conscious of these labels and how we use them is really important for empowering marginalized groups to have boundaries that we have to be conscious of how we are playing into them not having boundaries. What I heard you say very well in a very kind of convincing fashion was how the larger society should view requests for boundaries from marginalized communities. But given that the larger society is so infused with prejudices and biases, what would your advice be to people who are in marginalized groups, who nonetheless need to state their preferences and get their needs met? So one thing that is really challenging, particularly in corporate environments, is educating people

as to why you're not being aggressive. Actually, I'm not being aggressive. This is how I talk. I think within some cultures, it is cultural to speak a certain way. Within some cultures, it is normal to speak at an elevated term. It is normal to maybe not look people in the eyes, depending on the culture. And because we live in a space with so many others,

we have to not personalize every single interaction, especially in work environments. Everyone is not like me and my friends. You know, I'm coming to work. People are going to be different. They're going to eat things that maybe I've never heard of. They're gonna wear their hair in different ways. They're gonna have different activities on the weekend.

This is actually a learning experience. This is an opportunity for me to learn about other people. This is not an opportunity for me to push my culture on them. And to say, this is how I act, and this is how you need to act, is really to understand and get to know. If you're in a working space with someone, get to know the person. So you'll at least know, like, okay, this is a time where she's actually being aggressive. But if you're applying something that isn't even pertaining to this person based on your interactions with them, you won't know.

You're just going in with this bias of, oh, they set it in this way or they did this thing. There is something that they are doing to me when perhaps this is how they speak. There are people that's like, oh yeah, you know, she's always loud. So when they're loud with you, they're not doing anything special. They're not being aggressive. It's like they speak in a loud voice. You know, so really getting to know people before attaching any sort of label to their behavior is really important. Last thing I want to ask you about is in your book you talk about the intersection of boundary

setting and trauma, in particular childhood trauma. What are your thoughts on that? With childhood trauma such as neglect, sexual abuse, physical abuse, physical neglect, the boundaries are often non-existent or blurred. And within the population of folks who have experienced any sort of childhood trauma, there is a lot of work to be done around understanding their own boundaries, sometimes setting those boundaries with people. There's a lot of enmeshment, codependency, this responsibility for people who in some situations have abused you or neglected you, a lot of guilt within that population because there are things that happen that are out of

your control, but you still feel like you could have done something or you're still looking for acceptance from a situation where someone was abusive to you. The boundaries within that population is just so unique and I think that the work there is certainly as deeper, is not just about boundaries, there is a lot of work to be done around your mindset, talking about what is appropriate, what isn't appropriate, because people may not know. I am often in the work of helping people

who have emotional neglect from childhood. And one of the things of children who were raised to be many adults, they don't know what's age-appropriate. They don't know what you should be doing at 12 years old, because at 12 years old, they didn't have any boundaries. And so when they see a child, you know, maybe a six-plan with the Barbie doll, it's like, why are they playing with a doll? I wasn't doing that. It's like, yeah, because you were doing these other things that were actually inappropriate. And so teaching someone

what's age appropriate is a whole process. Sometimes I have my clients go to a store and just look at the toys and look at the age on the toys. Those ages are there because that's what's appropriate. So at eight, this is where you were supposed to be. And that's shocking to people is like, oh my gosh, at eight I was watching. Like all of these things that happened because there were no boundaries. So now figuring out how to play, because you didn't have a situation where you play. So the work of trauma is certainly a deeper level with learning about boundaries,

because there have been so many boundary violations that now we need to uncover what has happened, what was inappropriate, and the boundaries that you can set going forward. Bottom line seems to me, and I'm taking this from you, is that diving into boundaries, setting them with other people,

figuring out your own needs so that you can appropriately set them, figuring out how you're gonna communicate your needs in a way that will maximize your odds of success, making sure you back that up with actions that are similarly optimize your odds for success. The bottom line to all of this, if I'm hearing you correctly, is your relationships will get better, the more you set boundaries. Absolutely.

And even when people lose relationships, they're really concerned about like, maybe if I hadn't said that boundary, I always wonder, was that a healthy relationship? If setting a boundary ruined your relationship with someone, you sign to them, this is my boundary. That was like the big thing that brought the relationship down. What was the relationship based on? Was it a healthy situation for you and maybe even the other person?

Because they had different expectations too. So in general, the relationships that are worth having, the relationships that are fulfilling, the relationships with people who should be in your orbit, they are deeper, more connected and authentic when we have healthy boundaries in place. Can I get you in closing to plug everything? Can you plug your books? Can you plug your Instagram feed? Any resources you're putting down into the world that you want people to know about?

Can I push you to share that stuff? Yes, so I have a book. It is Set Boundaries Fine Peace. I have a workbook, the Set Boundaries workbook. I am most present and active on Instagram at Nedra Towob. And my website is NedraToWob.com. Great to meet you, NedraToWob. Thanks for coming on. You're welcome. Thanks again to NedraToWob. Before we head out, let me mention again that the 14-day Getting Unstuck Challenge, which we'll

teach you how to overcome inertia and make the changes you want to make in your life. It is starting on Monday, January 3rd, over on the 10% happier app. Download the app, pronto, wherever you get your apps. This show is made by Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justine Davy, Kim Baikama, Maria Wartell, and Jen Pliant with audio engineering from Ultraviolet Audio.

We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode with Matthew Hepburn, who is the host of this year's New Year's Challenge alongside yours truly. So that's coming up on Wednesday. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hey, hey, prime members. You can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music.

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