Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris - 430: From Evangelical Pastor to Buddhist Nun | Venerable Pannavati

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

Venerable Pannavati is a former evangelical pastor who has been ordained in three separate Buddhist traditions: Theravada, Chan, and Mahayana. She’s the co-founder and co-Abbot of Embracing-Simplicity Hermitage and Meditation Center; Co-Director of Heartwood Refuge and President of the Treasure Human Life Foundation. She teaches around the world, was a 2008 recipient of the Outstanding Buddhist Women’s Award, and currently serves as the Vice President of the US Chapter of the Global Buddhist Association.This episode explores:Why many meditators try to jump over important preliminary steps.Why Buddhism isn’t necessarily fun or easy. The utility and impact of making vows.What Venerable Venerable Pannavati calls healthy shame.Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/venerable-pannavati-430See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey, on the show today, we're going to talk about the kind of personal transition you don't hear about very often, if ever. We're going to meet somebody who went from evangelical pastor to Buddhist nun. Venerable Panyavati is a black American female former preacher who has now been ordained in three separate Buddhist traditions, Teravada, Chan, and Mahayana. She actually doesn't think that it's that radical of a trip that she's made, however.

In fact, as you're going to hear, she believes Jesus was a Buddhist. In this conversation, we talk about why, in her view, many meditators try to jump over important preliminary steps. She calls that skipping to the end of the book. Why Buddhism is not necessarily fun or easy, the utility and the impact of making vows, and what she calls healthy shame. A little bit more about Panya Vati before we dive in. Here she's the co-founder and co-abid of embracing simplicity, hermitage, and meditation center, co-abid of Embracing Simplicity, Hermitage and Meditation Center, co-director of Heartwood Refuge and president of the Treasure Human Life Foundation.

She teaches all over the world, was a 2008 recipient of the Outstanding Buddhist Women's Award and currently serves as the vice president of the US chapter of the Global Buddhist Association. This is a delightfully non-linear interview. Heads up that Panyavati does use a bunch of Buddhists' terms of art, which I kept meaning to circle back and get her to define, but as you will hear, the interview kind of got away from me in the best way possible. So having said all of that, enjoy. We will get started with a venerable Panyavati right after this.

Before we jump into today's show, many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping our heads up against the same obstacles over and over again. But what if there was a different way to relate to this gap between what you want to do and what you actually do? What if you could find intrinsic motivation for habit change that will make you happier instead of sending you into a shame spiral? Learn how to form healthy habits without kicking your own ass unnecessarily by taking our healthy habits course over on the 10% happier app. It's taught by the Stanford psychologist, Kelly McGonical

and the great meditation teacher, Alexis Santos, to access the course, just download the 10% happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. All one word spelled out. Okay, on with the show. Hey y'all, it's your girl, Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, singer, and entrepreneur.

On my new podcast, Baby This is Kiki Palmer. I'm asking friends, family, and experts, the questions that are in my head. Like, it's only fans only bad. Where did memes come from? And where's Tom from, MySpace? Listen to Baby, this is Kiki Palmer, on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast.

Vanderbilt Ponyavati, welcome to the show. Thank you, Dan. Thanks for coming on. You have such a fascinating story. I'd love to get you to talk a little bit at the outset here about how you went from pastor to none. Well, I think it's a story that many people have. We just don't come all the way full circle with it. I noticed my congregation year after year, constantly groveling at the altar, having faith in Jesus, faith in God, faith in that path,

and yet never really coming to the fullness of the measure of the satchel of Jesus, which is what's promised in the Bible. And so I was praying one day and I said, this is just not working. And it has nothing to do with how much faith we have in you. I'm speaking to Jesus now, or how well we are devoting our life to goodness. There is something fundamentally missing. There must be 10,000 books in the Vatican.

We have one book with 66 chapters, something is missing and it's showing up in our life and our inability to attain the peace, the joy, the love, the power, the attainment that was promised. And that was my conversation. And I had a vision and in this vision, someone was calling my name. And Jesus said, you stay here, I'll go see what they want. And we were like in a bride chamber and I think it sort of symbolized being wedded to Christ. And I looked and I saw a door.

I said, when did that door get there? And I opened the door and it led to a small room. And was a table and a chair like kindergarten table and chair dust piled up Meaning nobody been in that room for a long time. There was another door. I opened that door and it was a large room Bright white with a steel table and a scale and there was another door I opened that door and it led to an alleyway where there was a door, I opened that door and it led to an alleyway where there was a beer light flashing, there were snakes, frogs, it was smelly. And I came back through that room, closed that door, back through the big room with the silver table and scale, closed that door, back through the little classroom, closed that door and I was back in the bride chamber. And when I got back,

Jesus was saying, I said, Lord, when did that door get to our room? You said, Oh, Diane, that was my name, Diane. It's been there all along, but you couldn't see it because of the brightness of my countenance. You said, now you walk through that door and I'll take care of those that call you from the living room. That was on Saturday. The very next day I took my congregation to a friend's church. I said, I can't take you with me because I don't know where I'm going, but the one in whom I believe told me to walk through this door. And so that was my exit from the sustaining Christian view and practice that I had at that time. The first thing I did was I encountered Buddhist and they gave me a book and it was a book on dependent origination, you know, and it has the wheel of life and the teeth and all the

animals and I put a decider across that was like too much too soon. I wouldn't even open the book. I said, I want to touch that demonic book. And it took 15 years for me to be reintroduced to the drama. And I went through maybe 10 or 15 different spiritual disciplines over the next decade, discerching for the answer that I was promised. Now, because in that room, he told me that classroom was wisdom, the school of wisdom, and that I needed more.

That's why I couldn't attain or reach the measure of the stature of Christ. He said, everything you learn will be measured in that next room because truth has breadth, height, volume, depth, weight. And so it would feel that whole room. And then the next door led to an alley. There were all kinds of wild things out there that you know, if I leave the church, something might happen to me, you know what happens to people, the devil gets them. That's what I'm thinking was at that time. And he said, did you notice that door? And I did.

And it was the kind of lock that required a key and he held up the key. He said, you don't have to worry. I have the key. And so that's what happened. That's how I ended up being out there. So 15 years later, I've been in Taoism and everything I'm out in Beijing. And my Taoist master says to me, Buddhism is for you. I said, no, no, I looked at that first. I'm not interested in that. He said, no Buddhism is for you. And he takes me over to some Chinese nuns,

chan nuns, friends of his, and they give me ordination. And he says, now, when you get back to the United States, you go into a chan temple. I come back to the US. I can't find a chan temple where they speak English. And so I did the next best thing. I went back to the US, I can't find the John Temple where they speak English. And so I did the next best thing. I went to a Tibetan Temple. And so I stayed there for a couple of years. And one day I was walking out the door of the temple. And here comes a monk, a tervader monk walking up the street. It looked like his feet were not even touching

the ground. And his robes were like Flapping in the wind and slow motion. I'm not seriously. That's how I saw it in my mind I and he reaches into his handbag and his mouth bag in slow motion and he pulls out a book and he hands it to me And it's the Magima Nakaia and I got his phone number and he just said, you might find this interesting, that's all he said. And I went home and I read it and I tell you the truth. It felt like I could literally eat the pages out of the book because it was so satisfying to me.

Now, I had been Pena Kostal, I had been charismatic, a holy roller. I was used to bouncing off the walls. I was used to having these great experiences falling out, speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, all of that. But there was something fundamentally missing and that's what I was searching for.

And I found that in the Teravata teachings. But now when you put these together, the foundation and then you build the house, you have something then. And so that's why I've always encouraged people that they're 84,000 domigates. So you need to find the right doors for you. And they're not the same for everybody. So in our sangha, we have some who are, I won't say at the terravada level, but who are studying the foundational teachings so that they are Solid and then there are those who are building their house and there some who are adorning them and we all function as One song of the sons and the daughters of the Buddha. So that's a story in a nutshell

It's an amazing story and I appreciate you telling it to me this is simply, so there are two things I want to do at this juncture. One is you used a bunch of technical terms that I'd love to have you explain for folks. And the second is I want to ask you from the beginning of this adventure that you described there, you had this desire to attain, I believe you said this, sort of measure and stature

of Jesus, you were looking for what you called the answer. So before we get to the technical questions, let me just start on a bigger picture question, which is, do you feel like you found the answer? Yeah, I absolutely do. And not even feel like I found it, but know that I found it. Because that's the difference.

I mean, we can have faith. We can believe we even have to have enough faith to believe. The Buddha's story, to know, to believe that there is something that we can enter into. There is a way that we can enter into a certain kind of rest and a certain kind of joy that the world doesn't give us so the world can't take it away. So I'm looking sort of like for the same thing, but I want the answers and I want to know them for myself. And I was looking to see the attainment,

you know, he had signs following. I'm like, I don't see that many Buddhists who have any kind of attainment in such a way that it makes the world step up and take notice. We got a lot of theories that we talk about. But I mean the where I saw things as a penocostal, and I experienced things. And I was looking for that in the drama. First, I needed questions to answer.

Just plain fundamental questions about who, what, where, how, why. And then I started looking to see if this is the truth, then it should reveal itself in our everyday life. And so I began to look for a real experience, one that has a quickening because if you've had a quickening before, you know what a quickening is. It means the words that are spoken, they give life, they like set you on fire, and they give you a certain kind of internal capacity to hold life in a way that's really real, that you can rely on that intrinsic power in you

to get you today. So there's nothing that happens in the course of your day that you can't handle. I mean, I just came back from California this morning for this interview. I caught the red eye. I flew out on Monday night. My bootamaster just died. And it's almost like never born, never died. It's not so much the personality, but really taking hold of the words that he taught and their life. And so this is what I want to introduce to the Darmic world because I think we have a lot of theories,

but they feel empty, they feel hollow. And I think we've got some things wrong, and I think we've missed an opportunity to tap into something that is real, that is vital within the Buddha's message. Can you say exactly what you think is missing from the Buddhist world? It's this quickening you were describing where the experience goes south of the border from your head to your viscera? Yeah, it's that, but it's even more than that, something that gives life. It's like if somebody's telling you something, but they're telling you what they studied, what they learned, and there could

be very eloquent at it, they can be very intellectual about it, they can be very academic about it. But if they have not had a direct experience of that, something is missing in the translation, or in the transmission of it, but a person who's speaking from direct experience, there's a charge there, and it can be felt, but it's not even the feeling of it. It brings a certain kind of knowing with it. And I think that when the Dharma really started taking whole here, people were leaving the churches, the syngogs, the mosques in droves, maybe not the mosques so much, but certainly in the church. And so it wasn't really a time to talk about spiritual stuff, because too many things were

happening, people were questioning their religious beliefs. So the head, to be a different way to introduce it, there wasn't so churchy, wasn't so religious. And I think it got kind of hooked up with psychology and it has become something, or something that is useful for this world. But if you're walking on a dried dirt road, there's going to be dust that rises up off that road and it's going to get on your shoes. But the shoes are not the road or they're not the past. I mean, you're just gonna get that dust because you're walking on a dirt road.

And I think that some of the benefits that one discovers through walking the darned past, they're truly benefits for use in this world, but that was not the Buddha's story, and it was not what he was pointing us to, although they may be of some benefit for us and use for us in this world. So we started in a little different way than the Buddha trained his disciples. We started at the back of the book because we really wanted a quick medicine to soothe

our anxieties and our fears and so we jumped right into meditation. But if you look at the ennobling and the enabling eightfold path, that was near the end. There are some requirements for that to work out right for you at the end. So he didn't start with meditation. He started with a right view, right understanding, and gradually bit by bit, even in the practices, starting with generosity and really understanding what generosity is, and the practice and cultivation of the heart that one has to do to truly enter into that kind

of magnanimous space. We didn't have that kind of introduction. And so we have not cultivated the heart that produces the kind of virtue that brings the true breakthrough that's promised in the Dahmer, but it's right there for everybody to see. And because we practiced for 10, 20, 50 years, we said, oh, yes, I, I know, I understand. But the proof of the attainment is not that apparent. So I think that first, we need to backtrack and we need to kind of take things in order so that we have really the right intention and we are following the path so that when we get to meditation, we have

done the preliminary work that needs to be done so that meditation truly penetrates and we are able to see clearly. Coming up, venerable Panyavati discusses why Buddhism isn't always that much fun. And she talks about her efforts to bring some healing to her own story as a black woman who grew up in the American South right after this. Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time, pure honor, and what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast. Life is Short with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions,

like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life.

We explore how they felt during the highs and sometimes more importantly the lows of their careers We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times But if I'm being honest, it's it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff Like if you had a sandwich named after you what would be on it? Follow life is short wherever you get your podcasts You can can also listen to Add Free on the Amazon Music or Wondering app. I wonder if I could gently nudge you to get really practical. So channeling the mind of a rank and file 10% happier podcast listener who may be thinking to herself, okay, I do a little bit of meditation. I'm feeling somewhat virtuous for doing that.

And now here comes this clearly, incredibly brilliant and interesting non telling me I'm starting at the back of the book. I need to go to the front of the book. So what would that look like going to the front of the book in very practical, concrete terms? So it's funny that whatever we think of in our mind, we call that practical and concrete, but actually the things that make life meaningful, they're not concrete like that. We can't touch them, but there is something that we have a knowing of.

Like when you fall in love, you may not know what it is. You can like justify it because facts tell, but it's the benefits that sell. And so there is something that one is experiencing, even if they don't understand it or can't make sense of it, you know that you're having an experience. And to me, that's what's pragmatic. And so I have a kind of different view of pragmatism because the mind that doesn't know is not going to be the mind that can apprehend something. There is something else that has to occur, some transfer and some connection that has to occur.

Because this is a mind that doesn't know. But the thing is when one comes into contact with progeny, with wisdom, that's a different kind of mind, That's not my mind. That's not Ponyuides mind. So pragmatism doesn't really enter into it. But when I encounter wisdom, that wisdom subsumes my own mind and then I know something. And I can tell you that I know that directly. Even the Buddha had difficulty using words to explain things. He said, because the words don't measure up to the thing, but it can be known. It can be experienced.

So when we try too hard to explain everything, something is lost. But if we go for the direct experience, then something is gained. And when people come in contact with someone who has that, they know that person has a certain kind of vitality that they don't have. They know that they have that certain something, even if they can name it, but they can recognize that there is a power there that exists, that I don't have, and I want that.

So to understand what cultivation is, you have to have a right view. So the Buddha talks about developing a mind of impermanence. And he talks about a mind of firm belief in the teachings belief in his awakening because you don't have your own when you start. He talks about a mind of renunciation. Renunciation, what are we talking about with renunciation?

He was talking about getting off the rounds of Sam Sarah and entering the bond, the bond of not being a place, but being a certain state is the best word as a human that we can come up with. But it's more than any say beyond that, you just have to experience it. It can be known. And so then he talked about having a mind with true vows, one making a vow and one living up to their vow.

When I take a vow, it's not for you, you might benefit from it, but I'm making a commitment to myself about something. Then I'm going to be diligent about it. I will take the precepts and then I enter into the meditation that develops my mind so that there can be a level of concentration there that the things of the world are fall away and I'm standing at that gate of progeny there and I can be accosted by that wisdom. And then I take that wisdom upon myself and I have that sublime wisdom and not this ordinary human wisdom. So that's the pragmatic step by step preliminary formula for entering

on this path. And to the extent that we know that and to the extent that we can step by step, enter into that. We have a much greater chance of being successful. We're not like 20 years down the road is still crazy after all these years But one will have developed one something because things become so crystal clear and so plain as you walk the path Step by step the gradual path But we like to jump to the end of the book a most of my students are teachers long time teachers They're way more famous than me and And I'm so impressed with them. And I see them struggling, although they're very articulate, I see them struggling with the same things

that they're trying to teach their students. I'm like, how can this be? You have to overcome that. And you know that you've overcome it by your capacity to hold the eight worldly wins in life of praise and blame, loss in game, pleasure in pain, fame and shame. When it's all the same to you, then you know that you have now a certain kind of intrinsic

power that the world can't hold you hostage. And that's your first real taste of freedom. It's not to be happier without things. It's not for any of those other reasons, although you are happier with your things, and you can be just as happy without them. But this has to be walked through. It can't be studied through. It has to be actually lived in what we think, what we say, and what we do. And so we work at developing the conduct, the kind of mind of an awakened one, and what that look like to you, it means that when someone offends me, instead of me getting a nosebleed

and having to excuse myself so that I don't embarrass myself, I can sit there when that happens. And I can not only hold my peace, but I can actually honestly have compassion for that person because it's because of their own ignorance and blindness that they hold that view towards me that way because I know myself. I know if I'm guilty of that or not guilty of it. And when one can be in these kind of situations and recognize it, then there's a kind of ease and

comfort to living in the world. And there's a kind of peace that you know from the inside out, you're walking an extraordinary path. Okay, I'm going to give you a heads up. I'm about to be a pain in the ass. I love everything you just described. I want to be accosted by wisdom. I want for the eight-worldly wins, gain in loss, fame and disrepute, all that stuff. I want it all to be the same to me, but I'm still a little bit stuck on what to do.

I am, I guess, incurably Western and like to have some idea of exactly what to do. So this is when Buddhism is not that much fun because it's in your thoughts, in your speech, in your action. So the way we practice, if you read, I think it's the Magima Nakaya number six or seven or eight, and he talks about what we call practice as meditation. And he says, I don't call that practice. I call that a pleasant abiding here. And now he said, but this is what I call practice.

And then he starts talking about when people are ranting and raving, when they're falsely accusing you, when they've taken something, that shows what can you do in that moment. Can you hold your peace? Can you apply the teachings? Can you overlook a slight? Can you tolerate a fault? That's what practice is. We don't necessarily want that. We just want to get that by osmosis, but you can't get it by osmosis. You can't even get it by studying it. You can study it, but you have to actually do it in that moment. So it's this moment

by moment, challenging the impulses that arise, the egoic impulses to defend yourself, to protect yourself, to not feel embarrassed. One thing that helped me a lot was I was a gossiper and then I made this vow. And remember I was talking about making a vow that I was going to stop gossiping and I was at the water cooler on my job one day and you always go to the water cooler because the one who's not at the water cooler that's the one that gets talked about and so when I see people gathering at the water cooler I go to and they started talking about bringing up something about somebody. And I remember something that the same person did to me that I said, I let go of. And it was okay. She made a mistake. She didn't know who she was talking to.

And I thought I'd let that go. But now when they started bringing up, their grievances, mine came up again, too. And I started saying something nice because I'm thinking about my vow, and I'm saying, well, sometimes things aren't, as they appear, she may not have even been thinking about it, the way that you're looking at it. And she could have had something else going on in her life. That sounds really good, right?

That sounds real good. And this was at the beginning of my Buddhist path. So I knew some of the right things to say because I read the back of the book. But all of a sudden, I noticed how I could add a little bit to just kind of let everybody know I'm also disgruntled with her. And when it happened, my vow struck my heart. And I said, but I said, I wouldn't do this. And then I said, I'm sorry, I'm gossiping. And I turned around and I went back to my desk. And the power of that was broken for me.

But I had to break it. I couldn't think myself into it. I had to actually take the actions in the moment, even though I'm sure they talked about me when I left the water fountain. But at that point, I didn't care, because I had stepped into my own great wish, my own space of being, if you will.

And that's what a walking this path does. You can walk alone if you have to, but you know who you are, you know what you are, what you made up, and what you hold and grasp so that you are never ashamed of yourself. And you find that there is this strength that you have. There is this strength and there is this power, but it's according to your conviction. And that whether the booty did it, but whether I can do it.

And then that's like a snowball rolling down the hill. You'll start to get good at this. The more you do it the same way as when we're doing bad, it's like a snowball rolling down the hill. You'll start to get good at this. The more you do it the same way is when we're doing bad, it's like a snowball rolling down the hill. And we get worse and worse until we slam up against the wall. People have more confidence in badness than they do goodness. But if we were convinced that it was, we would do it, we would exert more effort, and we would see the benefits of goodness for goodness sake. So if we want to have a thriving spiritual, psychological life, I think what you're saying

is we need to start with getting our ethical trip together, practicing in a systematic way, generosity, not gossiping, kindness, compassion, etc., etc., the beginning of the book. Yeah, I would say that, but it's a little bit more than that because the importance of establishing a vow, for instance, it's not just saying something or thinking something. There are laws that govern everything and there's spiritual laws that govern this practice. And so sometimes we want the Dharma on our terms and we need euphemisms because you have to be careful how you talk to me. You might hurt my feelings or you might stop coming to Dharma. You might stop giving offerings. We have all of our reasons for why we have to be so careful

about how we say things. But there comes a place when somebody wants something they really wanted, like seeing a field of pearls and you'll give everything you have to buy it. I'm talking about that kind of conviction and vows help us to have that kind of conviction. It's an ingredient that takes us into firm resolve when we understand it. So spiritual life has certain principles and we have to approach it and accept it upon its own terms.

We get right to book. We can't write the book. We're trying to get in on it. And so we have to appreciate spiritual things and not think that we need to change them, make them suitable for us. We have to get with the program. And most of us are used to dictating how we want things to be because the world is somewhat easier for a lot of us. And so we don't suffer some

of the things when I was doing ministry over in India. That ended my conversation on the black topic because I went over there and I saw how some people live and I recognized that although I have it bad because I'm black in America, I don't have it as bad as some people in other places and in other countries. And although I may have been considered non-human, over there, they're still called that to their face. When I went there, and they were calling them their untouchables Dalits, they called them non-human. They're not even part of the five categories of humankind. So I got a reality check about some things.

Then I saw that maybe if I didn't get to such a huff about people's ignorance that if I didn't get so riled up, so fearful, so angry, then maybe I could be like a stopper for that diet that has that ignorant hole in it and stuff's just running out. Maybe I can plug that up. And so I begin to change. That's why I moved to the south. Because my family, they were sharecroppers in North Carolina. My mother was sold to a white man in exchange for the rest of her siblings being taken care of. So when I came along and I was born in Washington DC by that time, someone that

come along happened to be my father and he rescued her and got all of her children. And then I came along. So I didn't have that life, but my sister said my brothers did. And I decided that I wanted to bring healing to this whole story. So I came to the South, thinking that my Dharma will hold me up. And I can show love, compassion,

I can speak the truth. And 99% of my students are white. And I don't miss my words. I think you can tell that. I don't miss my words, but they know that I have no animosity towards them. They didn't choose their parents. They didn't pick their birth. They didn't or where they lived, none of that. And so I can hold a certain lack of understanding and I can work with that. And over time, perhaps some will change their minds about views that they owe, but I tell you when I came down here, I went down here long before I realized,

oh, upon your way, you got to work to do on yourself. And so I backed up and I did my work on myself. And in doing the work on myself, it opened the doorway for me to be able to engage southerners who had certain views. I would take homeless kids in, all the kids are white and they would call me the in-word inward in the beginning but by the time they left my house they were calling me mama and not like Mami but they respected me more than their own parents

so they would come for all kinds of issues. Little mother would say I just can't help him he does anything and I said well I'll tell you black so we don't have that in our family. No children have that in our family. You bring them over here. I'll help you with them. And I could, but they knew that I loved them, and I helped them to turn their lives around. And they would come back and apologize for things that they said when they started with me because they just didn't know. And the same thing even in the neighborhood,

that was called the home and recreation center for the kids downtown, they didn't use the in, oh, the ghetto. That was called the ghetto joint. There was nobody black in there but me, because all the kids were white. But you know, these things I understood, and I used the Dharma to overcome them.

I didn't use the civil rights platform. I didn't, you know, none of that. I used the Dharma to work on myself so that I could show them a way of being in the world and in spite of the obstacles that I had to overcome with them, I could be that way and people changed. Not everybody changed, everybody, that didn't have to change.

And I'm not saying I can go through everything. I'm saying I can go through a lot more than I could when I started. And that I attribute to the Dharma working in my life. And me loving the Dharma more than I even love myself so much that I could give myself away, give myself up. And when a person has that kind of determination, then the DOM stands right there to meet him. And when they don't, you get out of the DOM or what you put in.

That's an incredible story. You're going to the South and confronting the kind of big a tree that would drive, I think, most people to a lot of anger and how you were able to use your practice to do something different. You talked earlier about making vows. What other vows have you made or would you recommend the rest of us make? Well, I think we could do good as laypeople just living the five precepts, but you have

to understand them in a deep way. We don't need a lot of vows as nuns. We have over 300 vows, but I like, I'm like, I'll jump. He said, he keeps one rule and a reporter said, you just keep one rule? I thought monks had 227 said, I keep one rule. I keep rule of my mind. And so that's how I hold the teachings. And I say to a lay person, you know, that now we can talk about the hindrances, the good I would do. I don't do what I don't want to do that I do. That's in Romans 8, you said, oh, wretched man, am I?

Who can deliver me from this? And the Buddha said, you have to deliver yourself. And so when we talk about one hindrance being since desire, there's the third precept out of out of word sexual misconduct. But I think the Buddha was talking about sensual misconduct. That means guarding your gates, what comes in through, you know, the eyes, what comes in through the ears, what you smell, what you in through, you know, the eyes, what comes in through the ears, what you smell, what you taste, what you touch, what you think, because he included the mind as a sense gate. And so central desire then is like pulling in the senses generally all day throughout the day, noticing when your eyes go out after something craving,

lasting, did you see what he did? What do you think about that? Mind conceptualizing. But he tells us, you could just start by drawing in your senses, batting down the sense gates. Don't get too happy, don't get too sad. Just kind of get in the middle with that. And then you'll be able to

lean a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right, but you won't fall off the tightrope. And so that's one thing that we can do, you know, the mind is constantly longing for sounds or smells or tastes or touches and tactile sensations, you know, and ideas thinking, always thinking. You're going to have to step out of that and it's not like we're just relaxing and letting go for a while. It's not that kind of stepping out. It's like, do you always have to have an opinion about everything? And the answer is no. And you find that the less you have to engage yourself in having an opinion about everything, the less of you there is that shows up all the time.

And you start to feel an ease and a sense of peace and a harmony with others, a harmony with the world itself. When you don't always have to weigh in on everything, it gets tiring. So that's one way. The other is your will. But what causes your will? Does when somebody does something, it's not what you want them to do. It's not what you like. But it's not the way you think it should be done.

It's not how you would do it. And so the will is lacking. It's healing. The will is lacking right there to allow you to think the way you want, do something the way you want. And I'm assuming the guy, 128, is a great suited to really get a handle and understand this kind of nebulous concept that does actually take form. When the Buddha went and he met his disciples, he was with another group. They were arguing, bickering all the time. And he said,

brother, it's not good. Don't fight like this. And they said, look, Buddha, we got this, you, you're guessing I can't. So after the third time, he got his bowler robe, and he went on down the road. There he ran into Anna Ruta and a couple of other of his disciples who were camped out in another forest and he said, how you all getting along? He said, oh, they said, we're blending like milk and water, milk and water, not water and oil, but like milk and water. He said, how do you do that? He said, well, we think what a great boon it is for us to enjoy the holy life together. So when my brother wants to do something and I want to do something else, I think to myself, why not do what my brother wants to do? Because I so enjoy his presence. It's a great boon for him to be here. He said, and then

I do what he wants to do. That's laying down oneself and one's opinions and what one wants. And this can get to be a habit. This can get to be a practice. And you just have to experience it to note the benefit of it. We think when we get everything we want, that's when we're the happiest. But there is something in the laying down, in the substitution, in the giving oneself away, that is so extremely powerful and peaceful, and it brings a certain kind of joy and inner contentment.

And so the Buddha said, well, that's great. He said, well, then, how's your meditation going? You said, our meditation is going good. Well, have you entered into any super normal states since you've been meditating? They said, yeah, sometimes we see the light and the vision of forms and then it'll disappear. And the Buddha said, why is that? He said, we don't know the reason. And the Buddha said, you should know the reason for that. He said, when I was just an unenlightened Buddhist, I too saw the light and vision of forms.

And then soon after they'd go away, he's speaking of in meditation now. And so for those of you who don't know what that is, because you never had it in your meditation. And so he says, well, and I thought to myself, what is the reason for that? He said, and then it came to me, and he named, I think like 21 different things. One time it was sloth and topper rose.

One time it was overexertion arose. Another time ill will arose in him. And then what was building, what was becoming apparent and clear in his meditation that just dimmed right out. And he came back like just to his ordinary self, his ordinary mind. So in the suit, they talk about the practices that we should do, but they also talk about the fruit of the attainment,

what you get from the practice. That is tangible, that's here, and that's now. So we do the things that we want to do, the things that we think are beneficial, the things that matter to us, we do them. And when inheriting the fruit of the Dharma becomes as important to us as these other things that we hold so dear in life,

then we will hunker down and we will follow the instructions not coming without demands. And we will reap the fruit of what the Dharma has to offer. When we come back, Pani Vati talks about how to develop a mind of impermanence. She explores the importance of faith, and she talks about her current view on Christianity. You talk about the difference between cultivation and practice. Can you describe what you mean by that?

So I started talking earlier about the eight fundamental right views relating to learning the Dharma and learning cultivation. This was developing a mind of impermanence, beginning to see the impermanence of everything everywhere. So we see this impermanence, this thread of impermanence throughout everything in life. And it helps us to begin to loosen up just a little bit. And when we begin to develop a mind of renunciation, a mind of renunciation is a desire to leave the rounds of continued existence. So now the Buddha talked about rebirth, linking consciousness.

Sometimes they call it reincarnation. I don't like to use that particular translation because that to me implies one person being born again and again and again. But he talks about the causes and the conditions that produced you and me, that we didn't just suddenly appear and it was more than the sperm and the egg, but there was also the mind stream. And so the three of those create a being. And as we start to look more deeply, everything came out of something.

So we also have come from some again, and it may be hard to hold if we have an orientation towards we start with the sperm and the egg and that's the beginning of life because that's what some scientists have told us. But what sparked that, what brought that about? And so we may not know what that is in the beginning But we can recognize like every other living thing had to come from something

There was a a germ and within that seed is a germ of life that if it gets water It grows into something and so we start thinking but this is what he said I may not agree with it. I don't even know, but I'm not going to toss it out, you know, just off hand because I have a certain orientation to a different story. Maybe I'll just hold that loosely. And that's what I did coming in, having a long history as a Christian. So I just held it loosely. But the more that I revisit everything that has life, I know it comes from something. So now I start thinking about it in a different way. Thinking about a rebirth linking consciousness,

like running a relay and you have a baton. At some point, there's a passing of the baton to the next runner on the team. So I can see how something could continue and not be the same person. But after a while, as you walk this path, you start to see dependent origination and causality everywhere. And once I start to see that everywhere, I know that every act that I commit is the cause that's going to produce and effect somewhere somehow. And then I become more circumspect.

Now I start to become careful about what I do, not because you might see me, but because I'm really kind of embracing this notion that everything I do, every cause I create has an effect. And as I start looking at that, there is a clarity that comes with it. You can't explain it to a person, they have to earn the clarity. But one starts to get more serious about their practice. What is this drama that I'm taking up? What is it asking of me? What am I giving to it that I might know it all together? And then a

shift begins to occur in your life. We're undergoing a great explosion of growth in our songa explosion of growth in our songa right now, because I bumped them up a notch. I'm like, mm-mm. If you all want to do this, y'all can study at home. But if you want to take up my time for this, you got to give me equal time. You have to invest as much time

as you want me to invest. And sharing things with you, the care like just coming, I'll screw off your head and pour some things in Call me when you're having a bad day or when you're having a good day You're talking about how much you love the Dharma, but Developing a relationship with it. It's an alive thing You have to be with it. You have to talk with it. You have to listen to it, you have to respond to it.

But if one does, then they enter a different life. What's your current take on the word faith? We started this conversation with your description of your time as a pastor, and you talked about for you, one of the key gate to the Dharma to Buddhism was faith. And I think there are a lot of people listening to this show who that word is iffy for them because maybe they had some bad experiences with organized religion or maybe they're devout agnostics. So what's your current take on the importance of faith? Well, I think without faith, it's impossible to do anything.

I mean, most of us, even though we say we know tomorrow's not problems, most of us expect to lay down the night go to sleep and wake up tomorrow. We just kind of have faith that death tomorrow is gonna be another day for us. And so it doesn't have to always be within a spiritual context, but all throughout our functional life, we're having faith, we go out to the car,

we actually like faith that the car's gonna start. We have confidence that it's gonna work for us today. So if we have a problem with faith tied into a spiritual, cause it uses it in a natural way, or ordinary way, a secular way and you'll start to see that you have faith in a lot of things. I mean, in the beginning, it's true that he says, a he-possible come see for yourself. But what makes you come see? It's more than curiosity. When somebody's coming to see something for themselves, they either

wish it or was so, hoping that it's so it or was so hoping that it's so, kind of halfway believe that it's so, wanting it to be so. And so there is a tinge of acceptance. And sometimes you have to accept something to even try and put into practice what you have to put into practice to see the results. I don't think there's anybody who doesn't have any faith in anything. I really don't. What's your view of Christianity these days? Do you still believe Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again? Well, first of all, in Buddhist cosmologies, 31 planes, I believe that there are God realms. And so I don't have any problems with God. Jesus, I believe Jesus was a Buddhist to tell you the truth. I think it was a Bodhisattva and he

heard the cries of the world and he responded with compassion and with power and he came teaching them how they could also enter into the same thing and it went against the doctrine of their culture and they killed them for it. And so I think Bodhisattva's make appearances in the world to show us a way to live. And the one who really sees it, desires it with all the heart, if the common conditions are right.

And I think the common conditions just happen have been right for me to be able to receive that message because I know others who couldn't receive that message and there's some who can't receive the Buddhist message. So I never say, well, you got to have Buddhism or nothing. Whatever you can receive and whoever you can receive something from that makes you a better person that creates more of a wellspring of experience so that you can go deeper and deeper, step by step, all of that is good. I don't really think so much about the personalities, not the personality of Buddha, not the personality, meaning the man, Christ Jesus, but I think about the qualities that were in my Buddha mask called the body like

stinky skin bag. The qualities resident in those stinky skin bags and that quality is without a personality. And there's a place that you come in your practice that the structure of appearances shift for you and you no longer see things in the same way that you did before you encountered certain truths. So I don't have a big differentiation between Jesus, between Buddha, to me their stories are the same even though they walked out different ways to help you to know yourself and to tap into your essential nature. And I think I have the nature of Christ. And I think I have the essential nature of

Buddha. But it's got to be put in good soil. That's it. It's got to be water. It needs sunshine. And it needs shade to grow up into the fullness of their example. Before talking to me, you had a couple of chats with my colleague and producer DJ and he sent me the notes from those conversations. And one phrase you used really stuck out to me, healthy shame. What does that mean? A problem that I see particularly in the West is that we have a sense of not being good enough. Even when you look at a bully, bully's others, but really that's to like hide the pain

that he experiences in not being accepted in so many ways or in a particular way. And so we go through life thinking like we're not good enough or we do something and we continually flagulate. I said, when you do something wrong, own it, that's number one. Own it, see the fault and the danger in it, vow not to do it again. And then try real hard not to do it again. He said, but other than that, you got to put that down. But we hold it, we carry it. It's not that kind of shame that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the kind that when you do something, you can see how that does not begin to meet up to your standard for living.

And you have a sincere regret that you said that thing, thought that thought, or did that thing. And being contrite about it, sometimes it's good to confess it. Sometimes the confession just causes more hurt. You got to be wise enough to know which is which. But you yourself should know, and you should deal with yourself about it. And if you did that every time you did something that you thought was not good, after a while it gets to be not a game, but it gets to be a way that you assess yourself. So if I think I'm a good person, but I think these kinds of thoughts all the time, or I

do these kind of underhanded things, then you know, I'll start to know myself. And am I okay with that? Is that who I want to be to me, not to you Is that who I want to be to me, not to use that who I want to be to me? What makes my life worth living? I have to be authentic with myself. I have to know myself and love myself. Otherwise life is hard to live. And so as we develop that kind of healthy shame, it helps us to quickly see our faults and quickly, self-correct. I don't want you to correct me, but I'm willing to correct myself. Now, if I don't do a good enough job, somebody will correct me.

So we have a chance to correct ourselves. That's the way that one develops a kind of compassion for others, because you're a good person, but you make mistakes. And I don't want my every mistake revealed. I don't want everything I do wrong to be shouted from the rooftops. Think about tonight I might die, what but I want to spend my last hours thinking about. Would it be so important to me if I knew that I was dying tonight? Would it be so important to me to get you straight this afternoon? No, it wouldn't at all. I probably look upon you and love you because I'm trying to get all my points in

if I knew. And so it becomes lovely walking out this path that this way, that is a path to be tried. And as much as we like to think we can approach it on our own terms, to get something from it, we must approach it on its terms. That's a nice place to leave it. For a let you go, would you mind just for anybody who wants to learn more from you, learn more about you, support what you're doing? Can you just describe any resources you've put out into the world that people can access?

Oh, yeah, you can just Google my name, Pinevati, PA in A-V-A-T-I. I don't really put things out, but people put things out because I go all over the place and it's a lot of it there. I'm starting something new this year which is called correct cultivation learning from Buddha Academy and what I want to do is just help people reorganize and reorient to the Darmic principles on their own terms. And I think it will make a difference. We have everything we need. Just maybe a little bit out of order

and needs a little bit of rearranging or refining. And so I'm going to devote the rest of my life. I started about six months ago to just this. Helping people understand what cultivation is and how to cultivate and do the kind of cultivation that leads to true spiritual attainment. Such a pleasure to spend time with you. Thank you very much for doing this. Thank you, Dan.

Thanks again to venerable Panyavati. It was very fun to have her on the show. Thank you, Dan. Thanks again to venerable Panyavati. It was very fun to have her on the show. Thanks as well to everybody who works so hard to make the show a reality, Samuel Johns, Gabriel Zuckerman, DJ Cashmere, Justine Davy, Kim Baikama, Maria, or Talon Jen Plant. Also our friends over at UltravioletAudio who do our audio engineering. We'll see you all on Wednesday for a brand new episode about how to tune into the joys of your own in significance and how to cure The habit many of us have for compulsive

self-evaluation Ron Seagull coming up on Wednesday Hey, hey prime members you can listen to 10% happier early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. at Wondery.com-survey.